Best mom ever or worst mom ever?

another picture shows a young male with another nearly nude dancer on top of him with her legs around his head.

momming pretty hard there

wow

at the very least this is the best way to endanger the welfare of a child

She's the worst. At this rate she'll destroy any initiative the boy has. He needs to learn how to hire strippers all on his own.

CNN affiliate WRGB visited the Viger home and encountered a man who said the family "was not making statements at this time, due to the nearly nude dancers on top of them with their legs around [the family's] heads."

Boy still remains in a grinning coma, unavailable for comment

the way to raise a future GHB carrier

I just want to know what type of bowling alley lets in strippers to give teens and their moms lapdances, that all seems super counter-intuitive to me and I've been in some sketchy bowling alleys

Can anyone actually provide a sensible breakdown of the exact ways this child's welfare was endangered? And not some moral bullshit, like real dangers.

Al's Sexxxy Bowling + Strip club

simultaneously with the creation of this thread, this buzzfeed link showed up on my facebook. nsfw

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/23-pieces-of-advice-for-moms-taking-a-selfie

Can anyone actually provide a sensible breakdown of the exact ways this child's welfare was endangered? And not some moral bullshit, like real dangers.

chlamydia of the face

eye crabs

generally putting underage children (gender not mattering here) in a sexual situation is considered child endangerment. i believe that legally, any sexual act (and this has to be at least close to crossing the line??) involving a child is sexual abuse.

whiplash

acute priapism

exact same scenario as a situation where a father takes his 15 yr old daughter to a male stripper, but of course since for boys this is some 'rite of passage' bullshit it's considered ok but maybe just a damaging.

So, this lady got pregnant with the kid when she was 16?

chronic proptosis

this is really not cool and as pointed out is more or less child abuse in law but i still feel obliged to vote "best mom ever"

Sigh

lots of people have kids at 16, but don't furnish strippers for their kids' parties.

Can anyone actually provide a sensible breakdown of the exact ways this child's welfare was endangered? And not some moral bullshit, like real dangers.

― Poliopolice, Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:34 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there were a bunch of kids at this party, parents of the other kids (who didn't know what was going to happen) brought the complaints to police

So, this lady got pregnant with the kid when she was 16?

lol this was the first thing that occurred to me too

the other thing about this story is that it seems the biggest thing one could do that would undermine any hypothetical cool points you might accrue by hiring strippers for your kid's party is to get a lap dance from one of them in front of him and his friends

if it were my kids who went to this party, idk if i'd be moved to get the law involved but i'd for damn sure be screaming at this stupid mother

I would absolutely be getting the law involved

the thing I'm unsure of, because I don't have kids yet, is whether I would or would not be laughing my ass off at the ludicrous stupidity of the situation behind closed doors

yeah i mean damn i guess it's hot when a woman gets down with a female stripper in front of you but if it's your mom that's a bridge way too far

oh man if I had kids that went to this party I wouldn't hesitate to get the law involved. voted "best" obv

this happened

http://mynewshub.my/wp-content/uploads/Judy-Viger.jpg

is this partly, perhaps, an inevitable consequence of a growing acceptance of strip clubs as being "a bit of a laugh" in some sections of the culture?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say "hell no"

the thing I'm unsure of, because I don't have kids yet, is whether I would or would not be laughing my ass off at the ludicrous stupidity of the situation behind closed doors

i'm kinda more outraged as somebody who has to deal with child protection issues professionally, and yeah this is horribly wrong, and i still want to laugh my ass off at the ludicrous stupidity

i mean this kid's probably already a douchebag but she's helping to usher him into "point of no return" territory

She probably thought it was cool because she was there with the strippers. Trying to think using terrible parent logic, failing.

it's not really the same as "it's ok for them to have one beer under adult supervision" tho is it?

this scenario is so ridiculous I keep inserting American Dad! characters into it

that's more about my belief that american life is over-penalized than about the severity of this particular incident. because no, i don't think that this really rises the level or spirit of "endangerment".

let's say the situation was this mom took a bunch of minor kids rock climbing or skydiving w/o their parents knowing, that absolutely would be, and i wouldn't hesitate to call the cops. but i don't think that would make the news, would it

xps to myself

parents shouldn't be cool imo

c'mon guys it's no big deal, mom was there to make sure things didn't get out of control

mom = Francine
kids = Steve and friends
stripper = Roger

xxxp

what about if you showed a bunch of minors a porno movie?

"my mom and i are best friends, basically" is a statement that usually masks a ton of weird neurosis and silent resentments

xxxp

what about if you showed a bunch of minors a porno movie?

― tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:56 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

steely dan has a song about this

lol if anything i think this type of behavior is worse because it teaches kids something kind of foul (and i don't mean whatever that stripper's taint smelt of)

xp yeah it was going thru my head as i typed

what about if you showed a bunch of minors a porno movie?

you mean the Internet?

i realize that there is probably a sharper ethic of professional responsibility re: minors among outdoor activity providers than performers like this...

xp NV i hate to give you a jaded answer but the idea of minors needing an adult exhibitor to finally see pornography seems reeeally quaint to me

there's a hell of a difference between minors sneaking a look at porn and an adult actively showing it to them, which is why the latter is treated as sexual abuse

IMO, the only things you should be telling minors about sex are clinical details about sex and birth control

lol we found a google search in Joel's history for "naked ladies" when he was about 11. a conversation was had.

"naked ladies" was so adorably twee i had to compose myself for 10 minutes before i spoke to him

^yeah this. I mean in this country ppl can legally fuck each other at 16 so I don't know about endangerment but how the hell do you expect your kids to turn out if you teach them that this kinda thing is cool?

that was an xxp

http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/parenting/2009/04/14/diffrent_strokes_gordon_jump260x196.jpg

LOL @ NV's anecdote oh man

bad parenting is like porno: you know it when you see it

Nobody outlining any danger yet tbf

but yeah she should have informed the other parents

how about the danger of teaching kids too young to understand the complexities of adult sexuality that lap dancing is a cool and normal part of it?

what about if you showed a bunch of minors a porno movie?

― tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:56 AM (6 minutes ago)

what if you masturbated in front of a baby

feel kinda bad that I don't consider thong and bra "nearly nude" - shit, that's four inches of fabric from a bikini

nv did you teach him how to bookmark?

i'm not a parent so i'm kind of riffing on nothing here

i wonder at what age i'll be able to inculcate a hypothetical offspring with my very subtly critical and non-judgmental position on sex work

b b b but who says lap dancing isn't a normal part of sexuality. i mean, it is legal.

wait, are we concern trolling strip clubs now?

growing acceptance of strip clubs as being "a bit of a laugh"

i think it's fucked up for the key female figure in your life to, shall we say define, the boundaries of how you should view women in a manner that could lead to really incorrect viewpoints. congrats if she wants him to view women a certain way, he's well on the road to that.

yeah but that's "danger" not danger. You could literally sit your kid down and say "timmy, lap dancing is a cool and normal part of adult sexuality, I want you to remember that at all times" and you'd be a shitty parent but not a child abuser

all the xps

generally speaking milo, most women in bikinis are lying on a beach blanket or swimming rather than grinding on your pelvis and sticking their behinds directly in your face as you sit in a chair

I mean, I know there are always exceptions etc but context is somewhat important here; I think there is an important wafer-thin distinction between "sexy" and "sexual"

this is such a new thing!

it seems like there are more tv docs about "hey being a stripper is great!" now, plus in the UK at least there've been a bunch of incidents of people offering pole dancing classes for fun and exercise to kids under 16

Ban lapdancing?

so

there was a kid at my junior high school whose father procured porno for him. he would then advertise that his father would give him porno and offer to procure it for other students, leading to the consensus he was a creeper and the unfortunate nickname "mister p". he later killed his parents with a hammer.

welp

a mom teaching her son that it is appropriate to purchase female sexual favors is fucked up. I dunno how much it constitutes a "danger" really, but we're talking about emotional and psychological damage here, not a physical beating.

xp

xp - no, I totally get the distinction between beach and face full of stripper, it's just the scare words of NEARLY NUDE STRIPPER, when it could have just as easily been "strippers remained partially clothed."

"strippers are gross, son"

vs

"the stripper ought to ultimately remind you of yourself. all of us are coerced into trading away our subjectivity, some more than others. do not participate in the political economy of the gaze"

xxp I agree!

there was a kid at my junior high school whose father procured porno for him.

surely we all knew kids like this...? aside from the hammer-murdering part.

you'd be a shitty parent but not a child abuser

an adult showing sexual imagery to minors is treated as a sign of sexual abuse because it's one of the ways that predatory adults groom kids for sex

oh man, if I ever do an ironic cover of Hatful of Hallow I'm calling it Faceful of Strippers

whoa shit @ late grate's story

i've been half-heartedly trying to come up with a new DN for the last 10 minutes

there's something about my anecdote

i don't think the porn was what made him crazy, rather the social and emotional repercussions of receiving the porn from his father

Is this the first mom in this kid's peer group to do this or the first one to get caught? maybe it was some kind of oneupmanship like another kid had pony rides for his birthday?

I found a stash of early '80s Playboys in 4th grade - my decision was to cut out individual naked ladies and sell them to my classmates at $1 per. When I ran out of naked ladies I tried swimsuit pictures; sales were weak.

i really hope pony rides isn't a euphemism

oh man, if I ever do an ironic cover of Hatful of Hallow I'm calling it Faceful of Strippers

This needs to happen.

I don't know if it's socialization or a truism or somewhere in between, but I can't think of a single scenario that involves a parent figure procuring porn for his/her underaged children that reads as responsible and understandable parent/child interaction.

Help save the youth of America, help save them from the dearth of printed porn to find in the woods

does that make sense? i doubt if he'd found a massive stash of porn in a hidden cave he'd have been as fucked up, see also if he'd kept his mouth shut about it and not offered it to other students

(given this situation that prompted me to start this thread, there is an uneasy elision from "porn" to "stripper" inherent in my last post that is making me uncomfortable)

I had a friend whose hippie mom got him a Playboy subscription when he hit puberty - her reasoning was that he was going to try to look at them anyway, she should have some awareness/control over the situation.
That argument makes a little more sense today - if you let them see boobs, maybe 11-year olds won't be trawling for double anal fisting - but not in 1994.

did he develop an addiction to the short fiction of John Updike?

wanting to have awareness/control over your son's masturbatory fantasies still seems pretty off to me but maybe I am just a prude

yeah I can recall two friends who had porn purchased for them by their parents - one was a kid whose mom was dying of cancer, his dad got him a subscription to Penthouse for his bar mitzvah. The other kid just got some from his dad. In both cases it was the reasoning milo cites in action. Not sure what kinds of adults either kid turned into.

xp

does access to porn give kids unrealistic ideas about sex, esp re: performance, etc? that could then fuck up their self-esteem in weird ways?

what about getting your kid a prostitute? is that sexual abuse?

idk, how about if I find out that my kid has been watching particularly misogynistic porn so I procure him a load of tamakeri and make him watch it as punishment, would that be responsible

nb I do not have children, do not call the cops

I can recall two friends who had porn purchased for them by their parents - one was a kid whose mom was dying of cancer, his dad got him a subscription to Penthouse for his bar mitzvah.

good god

i get how this is far outside of social norms, but i still think our ability to be scandalized by this says a lot more about our cultural sense of sexual repression than it says about any real threat to the kid's welfare.

we can talk about sexual and gender politics involved in "purchasing female sexual favors", and we can argue about whether we would want children to be exposed to "fucked up" ideas (i.e. worldviews we personally don't subscribe to), but as far as I can see, there's little to no proof of actual emotional damage being done here. We're mostly just speculating, with little to no foundation, that this kid is going to grow up and hire sex workers someday, and might have a bad attitude towards women.

People expose their kids to stupid ideas all the time. At any given time, half the country is teaching their kids attitudes that completely diverge from our own. I can't imagine what the dinner table discussions were across America after Barack Obama got elected. Are all these kids going to turn into racists? Should they be taken away from their parents?

I read the beginning of Shakey's post and the first thing that went through my head was "your mom will not be with us much long son, so here are some pictures of splayed labia to replace her; now you are a man"

Poliopolice says what we're all thinking

i can't buy into that level of hardline moral relativism poliopolice

does access to porn give kids unrealistic ideas about sex, esp re: performance, etc? that could then fuck up their self-esteem in weird ways?

I believe the answer to the former is a resounding yes and the unrealistic ideas (porn dicks, porn star bodies) can tie into the latter.

pretty entry-level, polio

my opinion is that most freakoutery about this sort of stuff is the result of what is described in this very interesting article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magazine/13Psychology-t.html?_r=0&pagewanted=print

and actually, yes, if you;re teaching your kids to be in a violent hate group you can and should have your kids taken away

too Pinker; didn't read

ftr yes, I do think racists don't deserve to raise children and should have them taken away

I have a particular vested interest in this though, along with zero belief that that would ever actually become a public policy

pretty entry-level, polio

if you disagree, i would invite you to argue against it instead of being casually dismissive.

there's little to no proof of actual emotional damage being done here.

true enough as far as it goes, but, what "proof" could you reasonably expect to see in a cnn story based on police reports about an event that just happened?

at what age is it appropriate to let your kids listen to the nihilistic brain-immolating aural pornography of Merzbow?

i do think tho that concerns about the possible effects of some kinds of sexual experiences on children is mainly down to my innate prudery tho

xp tl;dr

dan it IS public policy!

i'm not a huge pinker fan myself, but i think he hits the nail on the head with this one.

i don't think your infamous prudishness comes into play here, nor does that of noted chaste puritan DJP

"this is speculation" <-- sort of true, mostly pointless thing to say

Poliopolice otm

we're bordering on excusing nambla here guys

Reminds me of the mom in Mordecai Richler's "Joshua Then & Now" who does a striptease at Joshua's bar mitzvah, and everybody is mortified except one kid who gives her an ovation (& grows up to be a real womanizer, if memory serves)

it's like people used to bang their kids all the time back in the day, it's a natural biological impulse, we need to get over our conditioned moral squeamishness

xp let me just preemptively point out the greeks condoned rape too

i mean there IS a psychiatric consensus that sex w/ kids is bad for their development no?

it's not just your prudishness or mine at play here?

Merzbow ok / gerogerigegege not ok

if anything people itt are describing the grounds for their speculation -- ie the larger worldview behind it -- than giving odds on precisely the kind of douchebag this kid is and will be

the posts i'm reading here are using the event as a hypothetical and not really getting into making things up about the particular people involved

First thing I thought of, Rated PG-13

http://www.pyronia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/innappropriatestripper.jpg

that's ok in front of a baby pp, she doesn't understand what's happening

How do we deal with adolescent and post-adolescent sexuality? Is procuring a whore for your associate completely less healthy when they're 17y10m old vs 32 days later on their 18th birthday?

maybe my family just isn't close in the right way but the only thing I can think of more horrifying than watching a stripper with my father would be watching a stripper with my mother

one more thing, if you don't want me to be casually dismissive: "but i still think our ability to be scandalized by this says a lot more about our cultural sense of sexual repression"

wrong -- the issue here is, with most things sexual, consent. as a first principle parents are responsible for and the guardians of their kids' consent. to be a minor is to have your parents consent count for and stand in for your own. so no, it's not 'child abuse' for cultural conservatives to have children (wtf). to have your own kids brought into a sexualized environment that you didn't choose for them yourself is a problem. it's the lack of choice and not the sexualization on its own.

(my grandparents are all dead so that's a moot point)
(weirdly, I could totally be down with watching strippers with my uncles; not so much my aunts)

if my mum had done this it would have been endangerment because I'd have jumped out the nearest window xxp

I couldn't even watch topless Svensson rated r movies woo my folks without rnning out of the room in embarrassment.

Scenes in

the answer is no, kingfish, but you gotta have some way of enforcing a law

I've adopted a complete live & let live policy re: stuff like this. It is tiresome trying to view the world as a series of incidents for me to judge.

loool i thought that was some cheesecake euro director i hadn't heard of

xps

don't woo your folks for god's sake

If only they hadn't closed down the burlesque house

I can't fathom going to a strip club with any blood relative.

It is tiresome trying to view the world as a series of incidents for me to judge.

but worth doing, right? otherwise there'd be no ethics.

although now that I think about it, my entire family watched "Body Heat" together when I was... 9? 10? and "9 1/2 Weeks" while I was in high school, so I think my dad's line of inappropriate doesn't quite match up to mine

in New yrok state stripping is considered an art

http://blog.timesunion.com/tablehopping/34226/steve-barnes-appears-on-colbert-report-tonight/

xxp Are there really ethics tho? I hear a word like that and it just screams of prescribed behavior from other people who have no business prescribing it any more than this mom does

that;s what i said re: the holocaust

whoops i just lost that one

I wish the hooters in my town was a church next to a strip club instead of combining the two.

... Hooters must be very different from what I imagined

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xCQykyGeOk

What if the 16-year old's mom hires a 16-year old stripper?

tits'n'mass xp

here's my take on it sleepingbag

we have some sexual norms that i think are pretty important, for example adults not having sex with children. a case like this pushes up against the very boundary of that norm, and makes us question why and how we uphold that norm. if we were just like "oh i'm too tired to judge this, i'm just gonna shrug" then all of your understanding of your social norms goes out the window and they might as well be arbitrary

but i have a feeling that maybe you'd just argue from a zero-sum stance of oh well people are stupid they don't have the standing to judge

i feel so tedious, humorless bastard taking something like this seriously but i think it's important to

you're just otm

exactly, otm

xp

waiting for someone to make the "we should be examining how to make adults having sex with children a non-damaging, value-neutral event" argument

Hooters built an empire on that argument

well there was that book that the U of MN press put out a few years ago, controversial...

xp

tbf they were only simulating having sex

i think that's why people think it's no big deal

slightly off-topic but it's kind of amazing to me how most people i know IRL are incapable of having serious discussions about morality.

xps i'm sure: Yeah I mean you're definitely engaging with this more than I was, my comment was coming more from a kinda 'in a world where we are being pushed twisted information every minute of every day I don't feel like it's totally necessary for me to have to confirm for myself or others exactly where I stand on every weird thing that people do' tip, because you just know that in an hour there will be some nastier thing that comes up and pushes the boundary further or downright tramples it.

With something like this, I genuinely can't say whether or not I have an actual problem with it, and then reflecting on that, I don't know why I feel the need to.

I guess you articulate why there's some impetus to, but like I said, come on, it does get actually tiring.

we're all very perky and awake over here

could be the coffee though

But this doesnt push that boundary. It's about in sight of the boundary, you're ok-ing yr kid into a sexualised environment, but it's a long way off incest, and not terribly far in the direction of incest tbh

al leong, is it okay for me to ask who you used to post as?

xp I didn't think the issue was the sexual boundary between parent and child but rather more the lesson that we are perceiving this incident teaches the child?

adults and kids in a sexual relationship is not always incest, and I don't believe incest is the driver behind the problems people are having with this woman's actions

xp: al leong = omar little

yeah and the other children xp

no, it's the question of a person being put in a sexual position they're incapable of consenting to.

i hear you sleepingbag, i can't say i'm exactly outraged about this myself, the way i would be if it was about rape. but i am a teacher, we have a standard of professional behavior w/ our kids, sadly not unheard of for colleagues to slip across that line, so for me it's a pertinent discussion.

slipping into idiocy here BUT what if the woman simulates sex and the kid busts in his pants? is it still simulated?

Heh nm i shouldnt try to read while driving obv

it's certainly sTimulated

i can understand that reaction too, sleepingbag -- the reason this story is in our faces is the same prurient drive that stripping lives on in the first instance (cnn = the bad mom)

whereas more straightforward child endangerment and abuse is not really newsworthy, both heartbreaking and boring all at once.

Xp he should def tip 20%

y'know i was being sarky about the simulated thing, i don't think you cd call this simulated sexual activity at all really. it is sexual activity, unless you're in Clintonworld

more seriously, if you are actually bringing someone to orgasm I believe you can throw the word "simulation" out the window along with the wadded-up tissues

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash3/161746_100000002204560_6779199_q.jpg

<3

omg it just occurred to me what a miserable gig this would be for the strippers. what kind of cash are a bunch of 16 y/os gonna bring to a bowling alley?

yeah but the Facebook adds could bring in extra business

i bet if you could somehow quantify the amount of emotional damage it causes to get your kid a stripper it would look like a bell curve, peaking around, i dunno, 6-12 years old

i wonder if the curve would be different for guys or girls. imagine getting a young girl a male stripper. that's not right. but that invokes a lot more prudishness on my part than the opposite, i think. or maybe like somebopdy said upthread it just *looks* more like common sexual abuse?

slipping into idiocy here BUT what if the woman simulates sex and the kid busts in his pants? is it still simulated?

for me at 15 this was a definite possibility. i dunno guys 16 is pretty old. that would have been middle aged like 500 years ago.

I was sort of hoping the mom gave the strippers a big tip but then again she brought them to a party at a bowling alley so how big could that tip possibly be

"you did an excellent job wrapping your legs around my son's head, please accept this coupon to Red Lobster"

xp it's true, that's why there's "romeo & juliet" laws where two 16 yo can be considered either consenting or not guilty of statuatory rape

al leong = omar little

You're shitting me.

omg.

ha!

yeah there are patriarchal dynamics in play here as well which is why public and media reaction to male teachers having relationships with female pupils is often quite different to female teachers and male pupils

I'm usually good at identifying people too. Man.

don't scoff @ the cheese biscuits DJP

i thought it was common knowledge, i figured my disguise was basically

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l32bnjpnf01qzb0x0.gif

the reason this story is in our faces is the same prurient drive that stripping lives on in the first instance (cnn = the bad mom)

CNN is seriously the worst mom

let's not forget that the age range of the party goers was 14 to 16, folks

I mean, I agree it's not as terrible as an 8-year-old getting a lap dance but not everyone there was approaching what we consider to be "legal"

x-post - lol. I've been a little out of it lately but I just hadn't caught on.

what do you think their bowling scores were like

straight 69s

X X X

http://thatschurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/tumblr_maq77ecMHG1qejf6u.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw9sQ98s9AE

omg

hahahaha

You know, I've known about the gobble,gobble exchange for years but I don't know that I've ever seen that clip. Dear Christ.

love his "enh?"

hahaha I thought about Gigli too but I thought it might be too far off to bring up

late great doing good work itt, djp also.

i'm not parent, doubtful I will be but parents dragging their kids into sexualization rather than letting it, ugh, idk, naturally take it's course is SUPER gross to me. Especially when it's in the realm of procuring porn/strippers etc for them.

the line for me is is: sixteen year olds procuring a stripper for their own party under assumed names and fake id's or whatever is sad and dumb. a parent procuring a stripper for a 16yo's party is fucking insane and no good is ever going to come of that kind of parenting, I don't care if you live in freaking Denmark or Illinois.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

an adult showing sexual imagery to minors is treated as a sign of sexual abuse because it's one of the ways that predatory adults groom kids for sex

Would you see the situation differently if the son (and all attendees) were 17, the age of consent in NY state? Obviously, it's a weird thing for a parent to do etc.

lol @ prudle vague itt

otm, no-ogle staid imo

well there was that book that the U of MN press put out a few years ago, controversial...

― goole, Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:49 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is the book i meant

http://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/harmful-to-minors

goole has been way otm itt imo

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

alarmingly close

No touching