"Habemus Papam" - we have a Pope.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66376000/jpg/_66376891_66376886.jpg

that was real fast, no?

"Habemus papadam" - we have papadam

hope he's like Paul II: " He boasted that if elected pope he would buy each cardinal a villa to escape the summer heat."

Hero.

Has anybody written a murder mystery set at a papal conclave? If not, why not

I thought that was Dan Brown's whole raison d'etre

Cant imagine the new Pope being anything other than Italian.

pic at top needs Mary Poppins floating in

There was that little-known thing from a few years back.

xxp hah

dammit y'all are too fast for me

pope nilmar i

keep expecting at least 1 person in this crowd to flash boobs for the BBC cameras

i'm sure whoever is chosen will be great

for me to pope on

"Habemus peplum" - we have a peplum

acutal lol xp

"Habemus pablum" - honor the fire

nice

"Habemus frappem" -- "Did you want room for cream?"

Habemus pabst - we have shitty beer

lol cnn never change

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYvb5CiUt6s

Pope is stealing my Poll thunder!

"Habemus fremme neppa venettibam"

MSNBC talking about how a new Pope is a pleasant distraction to the shitty reality of modern Italy.

this feels as exciting as the last time and I didn't think it would be

We're do for a long pope now though right? So the younger contenders are the most likely.

ugh that CNN clip 'uhm i'm seeing kind of an ~ecru~ smoke, not sure if it's white, nope definitely looks like a vanilla, ivory, definitely not white...'

Who has a what now

this has never felt exciting to me, this time didn't disappoint either

I wish I could be the pope.

'this smoke can be historically tricky'

just wait until the new Pope walks out and it's Seth McFarlane

Supposedly any practicing Catholic in good standard could become Pope!

that was real fast, no?

makes sense - i heard they were in a rush to get new one installed for easter

I am not a practicing catholic in good standing, though I was baptized so that's something.

I forgot to include the $100 registration fee :(

Habemus checkus

"Hmmm gee I dunno Anderson, it looks too thin to be smoke, could it be fog we're seeing?"

'were gonna be completely transparent here it could just be special effects'

guys

you're not following K-Lo's tweets

Kathryn Jean Lopez ‏@kathrynlopez
A bird keeps landing on the chimney. I hope not at the wrong time.

Kathryn Jean Lopez ‏@kathrynlopez
I can't tell you how exciting it is to be here! What love for the Church in this square. #Roma #conclave

good call

maybe Psychic TV will do new acid house pope tracks for the new guy. hope so those were great

Kathryn Jean Lopez ‏@kathrynlopez
There is something quite beautiful about mystical body of Christ gathered in hopeful anticipation for a holy father

im guessin Archbishop of Milan, least adventurous choice

K-Lo tweeting about Pope birds, I can't even

Kathryn Jean Lopez ‏@kathrynlopez
have i mentioned rome is wifi h-e-double-hockeysticks? or you'd have a lot more from me!!! off to a cbn interview.

I read all about the smoke thing -- its all chemistry and science now so they don't get false alarms.

They should through other stuff in the fire to make it more exciting -- Green Smoke! Yellow Smoke!

priorities:

Kathryn Jean Lopez ‏@kathrynlopez
from the world outside of rome: the reproductive health act would hurt women http://ow.ly/iOOoY #NY

Here he is!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/160979afe2f514463a63f60f1bf46a1e/tumblr_mjm2vzd4iJ1qicrz8o1_500.jpg

i leave work, there's no pope. 40 minutes later, there's a pope. what a world!

it's Anthony Quinn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngN2y6i_SOc

xpost -- if you go back to work, there's no pope?

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003570245/1814184858_Pope_Bob_Hope_10464_answer_5_xlarge.png

It's a waste of good smoke if Whitesnake aren't playing on the roof afterwards

papam habemus torris novum sacculo

you'll find out tomorrow, ned

one of the network morning shows did a desperate "maybe this guy" feature on the Boston cardinal today (another molester-hider)

KYRIE ELEISON DOWN THE ROAD THAT I MUST TRAVEL

STOP NOW

Is this love
That I'm feeling?
Is this the love
That I've been searching for?
Is this love
Or am I dreaming?
This must be love
And by "Love" I mean our lord Jesus Christ
Lord Jesus Christ

loll Alfred

Pope Mister

Pope Tawny Kitaen

I don't know where I'm poping
But I sure know where I've poped

who is it

who's the pope

http://merettapater.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/mr-mister.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5ZP__UNUhM

who is it

Is it my brother?

looking for the popealope

I don't care about the pope

even thought the pope smokes dope

it's time for the pope-ulator
it's time for the pope-ulator
it's time for the pope-ulator
it's time for the pope-ulator

trying to ID all the flags this papal soccer crowd is waving

so take
these popin' things
and learn to pope again
learn to pope so free

we're all gonna be

1) it's the guy from Ghana! or

2) it's an old pizza chef

3) it'sa me, Mario

wendy

the church doesnt like change so it would be a real shocker if it wasn't an Italian.

yes Pope

new pope has my blessing

having it be a non white guy would be the only way this could be at all interesting, but then it would prob turn out to be not that interesting after all

there hasn't been an Italian in 35 years!

IN THE STILL OF THE NIGHT I HEAR THE POPE HOWL HONAAAY
SNIFFIN AROUND YOUR ROBE

If the new Pope is an italian it will be quite an anti-climax (except in Italy)

you can be the president
I'd rather be the pope
you can be the side effect
I'd rather be the dope

is it berlusconi?

the new pope should be an imprisoned sicilian gangster

this crowd needs a beach ball

I hope the new Pope's first words are "OGGY OGGY OGGY"

predicting it will be the current pope in a comedy moustache and monocle

he's an old ex-con that's been away, now he's back, no-one's safe

pope is axl rose

they destroyed his ring already jjj, they dont fuck around

they should have destroyed his ring with him still in it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdPOn0HmdQ

Watchin for the white smoke
Hopin for new Pope
Catholic games

heard they let sxsw attendees choose the pope via some cool new app

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlsdlR3-zOk

lots of frantic sewing goin on

Watchin for the white smoke
Hopin for new Pope
Catholic games

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:01 PM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there it is

pope pomplemouss III

they destroyed his ring already jjj, they dont fuck around

ew

pope disco thunder

Kathryn Jean Lopez ‏@kathrynlopez
@KevinNR I am not in the position to offer a counter right now as i stand outside in the rain to grab a wifi signal trying 2 post 2 corner

i guarantee you this guy is not gonna look as good as DJP in drag

"Habemus Peepaw" - we have a grandfather

somebody let kathryn know that she doesnt get to be pope

http://www.brutalashell.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/gonewiththepope.jpg

k-lo needs 4g

maybe they could get her up on the dais, but a pope hat on her and hand her some flowers, and then all the cardinals pull the string that drops the bucket of lambs blood on her

here we go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQqZKd_72C0

hahahaha jjj

Habemus Peepoop Patel

somebody photoshop K-Lo and the hat plz

ok here it is!

Really want Kanye to jump on stage now and grab the mic.

this guy is too much

ARGENTINIAN!!

the argentinian guy is italian

who was the red guy he looked hella shook

76 y.o. New blood!

pope argentinius italianus I

Pacino xxp

francis i

yeah only word i understood from ed mcmahon was 'francisco'

great so we get to do this again in 5 years

Pope Cornholio

http://www.morethings.com/fan/bill_murray/stripes/bill_murray-stripes1981-1330.jpg

First jesuit pope.

his name is Bergoglio

feel like they should have the new pope ready to go after the announcement, poor stagecraft

habemus pampas

geez my jesuit in-law DID fix it!

http://www.embroideryarts.com/monograms_in_movies/images/032.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-obYP9Avv-GU/T8VVFTHs8ZI/AAAAAAAAA2c/y0wzlTPoVrM/s1600/CerebusPopeCommission.jpg

Homosexuality
He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, though he teaches the importance of respecting individuals who are gay. He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by gays and lesbians is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".[4]

that's all standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

sounds like a well-thought out position grounded in the facts. xp

yeah was there any papal candidate who doesn't take a conservative position on homosexuality? xp

what he know so far: fran-ci-sco does not make a very good chant

He has, however, voiced support for social programs, and publicly challenged free-market policies.

I know you guys refuse to acknowledge one single positive thing but hey

look he's already got his cute little white outfit on

Francis the 1st... he gets to really own that name now. Good choice! And an Argentinian Jesuit! He's practically a radical!

meet the new boss...

Pope Francisco - Habemos Parrillada en el Vaticano

papal got a brand new berg

kinda looks like Alec Guinness

He has, however, voiced support for social programs, and publicly challenged free-market policies.

I know you guys refuse to acknowledge one single positive thing but hey

― Pope Rusty I (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:22 PM (43 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

. . .

Obi-wan Kenpopi

he's gettin laughs, he's already better than Palpatine.

whats this gobbledygook whats he saying

Pope Mork I

pope jeff van gundy I

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2013/03/Bergoglio-pope-cropped-proto-custom_24.jpg

Argentina also postwar settlement place of lots and lots of former Nazis, just saying, there's a trend here

Pope Dad From TV's "Alf"

Every Argentine I know is an asshole so at least there's consistency.

Pope That Guy Who Does Your Uncle Fred's Taxes and Always Smells Like Pipe Tobacco

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130313151510-bergoglio-pope-0313-c1-main.jpg

the cnn homepage picture makes him look like one of those popes that ended up in dante's inferno

wait, Buenos Aires got the papacy AND the Olympics? oh no, that's Rio.

love NYT's wry humor here:

“It was like waiting for the birth of a baby, only better, " said a Roman man. A child sitting atop his father’s shoulders waved a crucifix.

Got a GREAT feeling this new Pope is gonna be one the best Popes EVER! Way to go, Popal Conclave, you guys ROCK! The Catholic Church is BACK baby, yeah!!! =)

2) it's an old pizza chef

There is but one Pizza Christ, and POPE-A-RONI is his messenger.

it's like waiting for the birth of a 76 year old man with 1 lung

Frankie is apparently a San Lorenzo supporter.

what did ya think of John XXIII, del? pretty progressive, only 50 years ago.

when do they put the hat on

Sunday, silly

this is so boring i hate the pope

block that pope

I always imagine the failed would-be Popes punching holes in their hats at this point.

can't there be feats of strength or something zzzzzz

they can be pope next time... oh wait they'll be dead, lol

Pope Jeffrey Tambor pictured upthread.

j0e if you hate him, then u destroy yourself

show us yr tits, yelled the pope, in italian, an awesome joke

would-be pope enters office smiling, his secretary starts to say something, he's all "i know what you're going to say. and i'm okay." he enters his office, closes the door behind him, pulls out his acceptance speech, tears it to pieces, pours himself a stiff bourbon. (repeat for the other dozen popefuls.)

Has he had his first poop as Pope yet?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/96180638f9469b30ccea46aa5919cd12/tumblr_mjm5hjwv6p1qmaoalo1_1280.jpg

j0e if you hate him, then u destroy yourself

― Pope Rusty I (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:36 PM (17 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what i dont understanding anything abt catholicism really someone needs to check on it to see if it makes any sense

from the creepiest imaginable angle.

xp

All I know is that the Vatican City rugby team is going to get a whole lot better with his staff coming over from Argentina.

Otherwise: Conservative in parts but appears to care for poor & HIV so maybe just maybe a softer message?

I sincerely doubt we'll see a Vatican III but maybe we'll see a softening.

@JoseCanseco: hug for u Pope Francis

ok he seems to be Jonathan Pryce up there

kinda surprised never been a Francis; no wonder he looks like Sir Alec

http://www.starwarped.net/files/other-roles/Alec-Guinness/Brother-Sun-Sister-Moon-Pope-Innocent-III-6.jpg

but hey

A gay Catholic going apeshit on my wall sez wearing white instead of red papal garments is "significant" and is also wearing "his own pectoral cross and not a jeweled one." Humility, he says.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes

Pope Francis calls heads & elects to be on the receiving team

^^ my morning reading

That better not be a currently active list.

Pope Innocent VIII (1484–1492) had two illegitimate children during his licentious youth, both born before he entered the clergy.[13] According to the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, he "openly practised nepotism in favour of his children".[14] Girolamo Savonarola chastised him for his worldly ambitions.[15]

the long reach of ILX

love the pople who died sodomizing a page boy but the official story was he was poisoned by melon

Morbz already got to Jonathan Pryce as I was typing it. Was gonna see he needed the extra income from the Pope job to pay off that shitty land he bought from Pacino.

Several modern historians[5] have concluded that Leo was homosexual. Contemporary tracts and accounts, including those of two of the leading papal historians of the time shared a belief that Leo engaged in "unnatural vice". Francesco Guicciardini wrote, "At the beginning of his pontificate most people deemed him very chaste; however, he was afterwards discovered to be exceedingly devoted – and every day with less and less shame – to that kind of pleasure that for honour's sake may not be named".

He only has one lung. I wonder if Ratzinger will outlive him.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nervous-pope-candidate-changes-wine-into-jesus-chr,31632/

“Shit, nobody drink that, it’s piss,” said a flustered Ravasi, moments after discovering he had transubstantiated the brimming contents of a Eucharist goblet into the Holy Messiah’s urine in front of more than 100 cardinals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSz_-VU9Lg8

BBC has the most Pryce-like Pope pose...
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66378000/jpg/_66378437_66378436.jpg

he wears those glasses that adjust to the light hes clearly in bed with the father of lies

Man, Opus Dei's gonna be pissed.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTk4NTA0ODc5Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNDMyODk2._V1._SX485_SY713_.jpg

this guy is Jonathon Pryce + Ed Wynn

this guy sounds ok. I mean, conservative, yeah, but alright. some weird shit about not standing up to dictators enough early on. typical anti gay stance but it's the pope, what do you really expect. at least this one hasn't been implicated in hiding molesting priests.

I haven't been to church in years though I was baptized. The past 10 years of shenanigans were enough to keep me away for a long time. We'll see.

http://i.imgur.com/5dIxa0n.gif

Love how a Pope, a terrestrial conduit to God, is basically just elected in secret in quotidian fashion.

xxp if the pope TALKED like Ed Wynn I'd start going to mass tomorrow

In Rome.

this pope doesn't look like emporer palpatine, also a plus

Erick Erickson ‏@EWErickson
That lefties are accusing the new pope of handing over lefties to the right wing junta for execution makes me adore the new pope.

whoa dawg

He looks kind of like Jack Kervorkian.

http://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy310/wld011/animated%20icons/hortonglitter.gif

One of my local news stations just posted on FB with a picture of the new pope and asked, "Do you think Pope Francis should join a social network?" Lots of ppl schooling them on the @pontifex twitter, so I just posted, "Yeah, Grindr."

man, my current Spotify playlist just went from "Samba Magic" to "Swing the Heartache" to "Disgust"; it's like it knows it's Pope Day

Finally figured out who he reminds me of:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8224/8317330272_c44cc95cab_z.jpg

Facebook friend's post:

is anyone else waiting for the bbc men to say "don't be fooled by the hat that he's got, he's still Jorge from the block"?

Facebook status update from one of my opera friends:

friend: the temporary papal apartments? there's a "carving of Jesus Christ's face on the headboard of the bed"
me: uhh wow that's a bonerkiller
I AM GOING TO HELL

xp: lol I guess we really have reached that part of the thread

Pope Facebook I

gonna listen to Messaien's St Francois now as a tribute, cos i'm gonna be heartbroken when all the dirt about this sweet-looking old guy starts coming out

looool DJP

lookin at FB, geez, you kids of the '80s and that meh Pee-wee movie

is "father of lies" a buenos aires club or something

anyway, congratulations francis one

Jeez, Morbs, I thought you'd at least appreciate the Errand Boy homage.

xp

CNN.com headline: POPE FRANCIS: 'HERE I AM'

my immediate reaction: "ROCK YOU LIKE A HURRICANE"

looool

HALLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOO VATICANCITY WEARETHESCORPIONS

on another liberal message board i'm on, reactions are mixed -- half are hopeful and optimistic (his being from Latin America and a Jesuit are the bases for their optimism), the others are "same stuff different Pope THIS SUCKS" (his anti-gay stance and allegations that he colluded with the Argentine military junta during the late 1970s-early 1980s -- and general hostility to the misdeeds of the Catholic Church -- are the bases for the negativity).

liberal American antipathy towards Catholicism is something to behold ... we still are a deeply Protestant country, aren't we?!?

You would swear my mom was Catholic by the way she phoned me up and hung on for 30 minutes, doing play-by-play Vatican coverage.

liberal American antipathy towards Catholicism is something to behold

well, he's old. He'll die soon, and we'll do this again on ILE in a few years.

really want to know more about this guy's cold war shenanigans

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13

It was great watching - so rare to get a political news story that is a genuine surprise and hasn't been endlessly trailed, polled, briefed and counter-briefed.

Announcing it in Latin so that you could actually get the news before the announcer was the sweetest touch.

i hadn't been following this religiohahaha but i hadn't heard this guy's name floated as a dark horse anywhere. the two southern-hemisphere cardinals i'd seen with media buzz were the nigerian and a brazilian. thank god for that, frankly. a papacy of scam or wax leno jokes would get me sympathizing with the magisterium a little bit.

in my office the only people who commented on the pope were the people who NEVER watch the news and only talk about Real Housewives. it was bizarre

apparently he came in 2nd last time

vice pope

he silvered in pope

2nd pope eram first loser

liberal American antipathy towards Catholicism is something to behold ... we still are a deeply Protestant country, aren't we?!?

― darf ich bitte mit Poppage spielen?!? (Eisbaer), Wednesday, March 13, 2013 8:59 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wasn't kennedy winning the presidency as a papist like a big fucking deal back in the day? now the supreme court is lousy with them..

...but still only one Catholic president! Canada has had a buncha Catholic PMs.

eh it's a generational bubble. all those great cheap schools are gone now that unmarried smart women have better things to do

xp

lol goole

prep schools ain't producing as many sybaritic men as they used to

Fourth, there's the standard ambivalence about Jesuits in high office, both from within the order and among some on the outside. That may have been a factor in slowing Bergoglio's progress last time, and nothing has changed the calculus in the time since.

what is that 'standard ambivalence' abt?

everybody who's not a Jesuit doesn't trust the Jesuits, the Jesuits don't really wanna provide possible ammo for their enemies

I gotta say: as a product of Marist Bros education, I still envied our rivals Belen Jesuit Prep. Even the ba-ba-ba'est of their sheep was quicker on his feet than my classmates.

Bergoglio has supported the social justice ethos of Latin American Catholicism, including a robust defense of the poor.

"We live in the most unequal part of the world, which has grown the most yet reduced misery the least," Bergoglio said during a gathering of Latin American bishops in 2007. "The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to Heaven and limits the possibilities of a fuller life for so many of our brothers."

At the same time, he has generally tended to accent growth in personal holiness over efforts for structural reform.

Bergoglio is seen an unwaveringly orthodox on matters of sexual morality, staunchly opposing abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception. In 2010 he asserted that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children, earning a public rebuke from Argentina's President, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner.

Nevertheless, he has shown deep compassion for the victims of HIV-AIDS; in 2001, he visited a hospice to kiss and wash the feet of 12 AIDS patients.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13

well christ on a bike this guy sounds as good as a catholic pope gets. we weren't going to get Russ Feingold as pope.

"Bergoglio has supported the social justice ethos of Latin American Catholicism, including a robust defense of the poor.

"We live in the most unequal part of the world, which has grown the most yet reduced misery the least," Bergoglio said during a gathering of Latin American bishops in 2007. "The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to Heaven and limits the possibilities of a fuller life for so many of our brothers."

He then took his solid gold cross and scepter and retired into his giant palace in his own special country, to oversee his organization which pays no property taxes in the United States.

it's the last guy who retired, dude

he wore a wooden cross!

obv beware the hype but allegedly Bergoglio lived in a regular apartment in Buenos Aires and rode the bus to work

He then took his solid gold cross and scepter and retired into his giant palace in his own special country, to oversee his organization which pays no property taxes in the United States.

http://blog.sarcasmsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ArchieBunker.jpg

"Nothing more than half a buck. No matter what they tell ya, most of what ya give 'em, they buy golden candlesticks with it."

Is the antagonism between the Jesuits and Opus Dei really as big as people make it out to be? Or is it just political fallout from the Liberation Theology wars?

It's wayyyy overstated

The only problem reconciling Jesuitism and the Church is the rigorous schooling to which the former subject their students.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/etienne_saint/ScreenShot2013-03-13at33420PM_zpsd222a34c.png

seems a little presumptuous

Pope Francis: Achoo!

show us what you got, "pontiff"

I find Morbz continued defense of the Church sort of perplexing

why?

cuz he's such a moral absolutist about basically every other institution...?

if "defense" means "Let's look at the whole picture"

yeah but what other institutions let their young men consume unleavened bread and pretty good red wine

particularly institutions that have histories of being genocidal, run by amoral cretins, plutocrats and hypocrites etc.

xp

I mean it's nice that they give lip service to helping the poor but let's be real here, this institution is a disaster

the catholic church doesn't really seem like the monolithic fiefdom that Pope boosters/haters want people to believe

yeah but what other institutions let their young men consume unleavened bread and pretty good red wine

I know a pretty cool place that serves tortilla chips & tequila drinks

going to bed before we get into "religion is the number one cause of wars" now

but it's an institution based, aesthetically at least, on the teachings of Christ, a humanist and an egalitarian, and therefore has the potential to be a tremendous force for good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care

I mean, no institution is perfect but at least have some sense of what people are about if you want to criticize them

c'mon now I've specifically argued AGAINST that fallacy on various religion threads!

xp

I mean it's nice that they give lip service to helping the poor but let's be real here, this institution is a disaster

love the god, hate the men?

Idk nv several parish priests here are on silence orders on thread of excommunication cos of deviation from pontifexts

the Catholic Church has been around for a loooooong time (oldest financial institution in the world, I think?) and I am well aware that it has its good and bad points - I just don't expect a moral absolutist like Morbz to appreciate the nuances.

xp

We're not rly on about the 'potential' of the org imago, seeing as the powers in it dont rly care about that potential in the way you mean

Idk nv several parish priests here are on silence orders on thread of excommunication cos of deviation from pontifexts

yeah but that's part of what i mean, there's always that ongoing power struggle between the parishes and the centre? i mean the Papacy obviously has plenty of real power over the priesthood but the parishioners themselves are frequently ahead of both in the being decent liberals stakes. and also some priests are bolshier than others.

The only problem reconciling Jesuitism and the Church is the rigorous schooling to which the former subject their students.

Always made me mad, that as a girl, I would have had to gone to the Dominican school instead of the fancy Jesuit prep.

that's true, but you weigh that against the historical crimes of the Church - which are numerous and appalling and stretch back pretty much to the adoption of the Nicene Creed - on the balance I'm not inclined to give the institution the benefit of the doubt as being a bulwark of enlightenment or anything.

xp

http://www.davidbordwell.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/Smiley-1-300.jpghttp://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66378000/jpg/_66378103_017483188-1.jpghttp://www.davidbordwell.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/Smiley-2.jpg

Interesting perspective here
http://thecommune.co.uk/2009/12/25/a-christmas-message-from-the-vatican-marx-was-right/

The Canadian bishop is the mole, right?

if "defense" means "Let's look at the whole picture"

― the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:38 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And heaven knows if Morbz is good at one thing it's cutting institutions and leaders some slack as long they mouth the right words and ostensibly do some good somewhere.

Catholic history is awesome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care

I mean, no institution is perfect but at least have some sense of what people are about if you want to criticize them

While I applaud efforts to expand access to health care, the Catholic Church's increasing involvement in the hospital-ownership biz has not exactly been an [Removed Illegal Link], to be sure.

I just don't expect a moral absolutist like Morbz to appreciate the nuances.

it's left to lapsed catholics to appreciate the nuances of the catholic church because no one else really will ime

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/21/health/policy/growth-of-catholic-hospitals-may-limit-access-to-reproductive-care.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

as a lapsed catholic i have to say what draws me back is the iconography, it's like a wondrous mix of what inspired indiana jones and king arthur and some lord of the rings-ish hoo-ha mixed in, crumbling old abbeys in europe, silent monks in fog-shrouded mountains, blood n guts n villainy.

and popes whose official cause of death was melon consumption when it was receiving fellatio

as an atheist most of what attracts me to catholicism is my own hatred of protestantism

Gah, no kidding. Calvinism's five points just seems so unrooted in any notion of compassion.

particularly institutions that have histories of being genocidal, run by amoral cretins, plutocrats and hypocrites etc.

this could also describe every government that has ever existed, as well as other organized religions ...

(not to pick on you, Shakey, but really)

this could also describe every government that has ever existed

b-b-but ... even Costa Rica?

j/k yes in general large institutions' track record = not so hot. Catholic Church kinda stands out as being the longest-lived and most powerful institutions ever tho.

er one of the most powerful institutions, I meant to say

^^^this is why, as a lapsed catholic, it's such a vexing institution. the cumulative tallies in both the Good and Bad columns are pretty frikkin extensive, and tbh it's a lot harder for me to imagine a planet earth without the catholic church than it is, say, the united states' government.

lol catholicism is unequaled in its power to mindfuck people, kudos

apropos of nothing except that this amused me

Pope Julius II (1503–1513) had three illegitimate daughters, one of whom was Felice della Rovere (born in 1483, twenty years before his election).[20] The schismatic Council of Pisa, which sought to depose him in 1511, accused him of being a "sodomite covered with shameful ulcers."

isn't that a fun Wiki??

all my ulcers are shameless fwiw

clearly not catholic ulcers

omg yeah that wiki has made my afternoon

not to be Captain Pick-on-Shakey tonight, but:

cuz [Morbz]'s such a moral absolutist about basically every other institution...?

moral absolutism is very much a telltale sign of certain strains of Catholicism, FWIW - which may very well be the Golden Key wr2 Morbz in general.

catholic church is an abusive boyfriend

this guy

Pope John XII (955–963) was accused by his adversaries of adultery and incest.[29][30] The monk Benedict of Soracte noted in his volume XXXVII that he "liked to have a collection of women". According to Liutprand of Cremona in his Antapodosis,[25] "they testified about his adultery, which they did not see with their own eyes, but nonetheless knew with certainty: he had fornicated with the widow of Rainier, with Stephana his father's concubine, with the widow Anna, and with his own niece, and he made the sacred palace into a whorehouse." According to E. R. Chamberlin, John XII was "a Christian Caligula whose crimes were rendered particularly horrific by the office he held".[31] Some sources report that he was rumoured to have died 8 days after being stricken by paralysis while in the act of adultery,[29] others that he was killed by the jealous husband while in the act of committing adultery.[32][33][34][35] (See also Saeculum obscurum)

I guess this "ostensible" "lip service" to helping the poor Shakey & Phil are snorting about includes food actually given to the hungry, right?

I do not really fit the definitions of either "absolutist" (I've worked for a number of horrible companies) or "lapsed" Catholic.

catholic church not unique in giving food to hungry. not unique in having a bunch of solid gold shit everywhere either, but they are kind of ostentatious about it.

so, bad style. i KNEW they were inferior to Obama somehow.

not unique is telling you theres something fundamentally wrong with you but maybe if you just do really really good it might work out (it wont)

afaik Obama hasn't aided and abetted child molesters. I guess he has tortured people so they have that in common.

xp

lol lagoon

I'd kind of rather have the Senate decked out in jewels and diamonds and the White House covered in gold, just to make things a little clearer.

The Catholic church currently tortures people? Or do you mean back in the day? Cos you could also say the Catholic church didn't nuke Japan.

would prefer Obama bearing the stigmata wounds of al-Awlaki

i like their churches and robes and everything i dont even have a problem w/gold crosses or w/e its their teachings and practices i take issue with, particularly the birth control ban is so deeply deeply fucked up and wrong, its just unfathomably evil

i'm not interested in the made-up sexist "dogma" that has nothing to do with Christ, the power politics of the hierarchy, and I reject them. But there's something about the spiritual language, which I was steeped in for the formative years of my life, that remains with me. But I have also affiliated myself with "dissident" worship communities, have protested in front of St Patrick's Cathedral on gay pride day, etc.

Bam has said nice things about bishop-abettors i'm sure, and has fried many kids.

The Catholic church currently tortures people? Or do you mean back in the day? Cos you could also say the Catholic church didn't nuke Japan.

hey Morbz brought up Obama, not the US - the laundry list of evil shit the Church has done way outstrips whatever Obama has (or even could) do in 8 years, yet Obama is a monster and the Church should get a pass cuz they give away a fraction of their wealth to the poor.

xp

the birth control ban is so deeply deeply fucked up and wrong, its just unfathomably evil

this is otm

that too

I mean, we could go on and on all night here really

maybe we will ;)

I guess this "ostensible" "lip service" to helping the poor Shakey & Phil are snorting about includes food actually given to the hungry, right?

The Cleveland Food Bank 10 min. from my house does that and they're not on CNN all fucking day today. But bully for them, really. The next time some woman undergoing a miscarriage hemorrhages to death in one of their hospitals, I'll remember that it's perfectly offset by the loaf of Wonder Bread they gave some kid that week.

particularly the birth control ban is so deeply deeply fucked up and wrong

absolutely. i wish all members of the Church were skeptical enough to totally ignore it, but it's only about 80% of them.

the church makes people feel bad abt themselves and then wont even let them use condoms so they dont get aids when they attempt to find a brief moment of solace in the arms another

every powerful institution ever makes people feel bad abt themselves

I have to, erm, take it on faith when the few practicing young Catholics -- a few of whom were in Occupy Miami -- were disgusted yet familiar with the stories of the rape of children yet still believed in the Holy Trinity, the sacraments, the Blessed Virgin. Some of these young men were raped themselves! I was once as ascetic as Stephen Dedalus myself.

*he few practicing young Catholics I know

agree w/ Morbz (ewww) about the Church's spiritual language during my formative years sticking w/ me. also in my case, my parents during my teen years got "born again" and dragged me (and my sisters) to "charismatic Masses" -- and even bona fide Pentacostalist/evangelical services -- every Sunday for about two/three years when they were in the fever pitch throes of that obsession. the orderliness of a Catholic Mass was, strangely enough, a welcome respite from the various craziness a teenaged me had to witness at evangelical churches (and yes, still shapes my current [negative] adult views of evangelicals). and at least Catholicism, at its worst, has never celebrated ignorance -- which is more than i can say about certain of the evangelicals i had to meet during my teen years.

Catholics burned heretics but accept evolution!

and i also strongly disagree w/ the Church's stance on effective forms of contraceptives (except the lol rhythm method). since it IS the Church, i am sure there are theological points on which they hang their disagreements -- but really, i find it hard to believe that it's anything more than sexism, homophobia, and just general clerical queasiness w/ non-procreational sex (no boy-rape jokes, please). it's really inexcusable in this day in age.

Deutsche Leute, eh?

The Catholic Church manages to do a fair bit of good in the world and has done some truly egregious harm, too. It would take an intellect greater than mine to say which one has the upper hand. The equation has too many terms.

the laundry list of evil shit the Church has done way outstrips whatever Obama has (or even could) do in 8 years, yet Obama is a monster and the Church should get a pass cuz they give away a fraction of their wealth to the poor.

So the complete history of the Catholic church vs 8 years of American presidency. That seems fair.

What so many people overlook is that the church was not some autonomous entity existing outside the power structure of the state. The two were intertwined for hundreds and hundreds of years, and to lay the blame on the church wo factoring that in is pretty misleading.

It would be nice if the church officially apologised for past sins and admitted it was wrong. Without this action it has no moral authority.

Apparently John-Paul II did apologise for the past wrongs. However this does not seem to be common knowledge.

Be nice if the Baptists apologized for their missionary role in destroying dozens of native cultures around the world, or for their propping up slavery and Jim Crow in the American south.

It would be nice if the church officially apologised for past sins and admitted it was wrong. Without this action it has no moral authority.

actually it has

The Church has done shit though for addressing its ongoing sexual abuse problem.

easier to apologize to Galileo and for holding Jews responsible for the death of the Messiah when the guys writing the apologia are sodomizing sacristans.

Allowing priests to take a wife might help

might keep them from blowing sacristans?

This is pretty interesting

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110624115601AAVgUU1

http://www.theonion.com/video/pope-francis-resigns,31660/

http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/03/goodbye-all

historically meaty

sketchy and contested

http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/mar/14/pope-francis-argentina-military-junta

Be nice if the Baptists apologized for their missionary role in destroying dozens of native cultures around the world, or for their propping up slavery and Jim Crow in the American south.

― Aimless, Wednesday, March 13, 2013 9:46 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It sure would! In the meantime, the next time any of the Baptist sects actually has its own nation and an ambassador to the UN, can you let us know?

its own nation...

From wikipedia: With an area of 0.17 sq mi (0.44 km2), it is the world's smallest independent state.

...and an ambassador to the UN

Ah, the power and the glory!

the Church of England and the Episcopalians have much to answer for wr2 American slavery, not just the Baptists.

captain save-a-pope

also capitalism

the mere fact that you call it "habemus papam" tells me you're not...okay I'll see myself out now

FRANKIE GOES TO THE VATICAN

Pope vote is useful for letting me know which of my friends believe in the supernatural

i dunno man a lot of people just like watching celebs in funny hats

i was briefly pleased to see he's a jesuit but he seems to be the rare right wing jesuit who neither reads the irish times nor likes rugby

The crowd at the basilica seemed to be waiting for idk bon jovi or w/e bet frank was inside peeping out all its not my crowd its not my crowd i dont wanna go out there while getting micd up

btw someone tell google

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=pope&tbm=isch

Pope vote is useful for letting me know which of my friends believe in the supernatural

i lost 5-6 followers on twitter after an anti-pope "there is no god" type tweet.

shdn't post spoilers without a warning

Handy imo

the church makes people feel bad abt themselves and then wont even let them use condoms so they dont get aids when they attempt to find a brief moment of solace in the arms another

I think both this pope and the last one have explicitly said that condoms could be used to prevent the spread of disease or infection (while still obviously condemning any lifestyle that leads to such necessity).

kinda surprised never been a Francis

On the contrary, typical of the Catholic Church that they'd ignore one of few genuinely great saints for a 1000 years

St Francis of Assisi never forgiven for his controversial "not owning loads of stuff" stance

In a nutshell

He received the stigmata o rly

Could talk to wolves

"Haberdager Popum" - we have a Poppage.

I think both this pope and the last one have explicitly said that condoms could be used to prevent the spread of disease or infection (while still obviously condemning any lifestyle that leads to such necessity).

― Habemus mundissimo ostentus nomen (onimo), Thursday, March 14, 2013 6:40 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

one weird definition of explicit, youd think if they were gonna be explicit they might actually like change church policy instead of just making some oblique statement about male prostitutes and how condoms arent really a solution to anything, its cool tho its not like there are tons of catholics in the parts of the world most heavily hit by aids or anything

yeah but if they die of HIV they'll go to heaven faster, especially if they confess

Yeah yr looking at this from a pov of reduction of misery on earth as if suffering wasnt a major currency to the all powerful creator i mean smh

lag∞n, let me explain: any sex you're not having w/ your wife is a sin (and i think it has to be for babymaking, or bcz there's nothing on TV).

and u guys really don't give a damn that the Church opposed the Iraq war while Hillary 2016 didn't, cuz that aint about sex.

i understand how the church feels about people and whether or not they are horrible awful filthy things, but once youre already committing one of these sins that constitute most of human behavior shouldnt you at least save yrself from unnecessary suffering, like just cause youre speeding doesnt mean you dont wear a seatbelt in fact when yuore speeding you should especially wear a seatbelt

and u guys really don't give a damn that the Church opposed the Iraq war while Hillary 2016 didn't, cuz that aint about sex.

― Pope Rusty I (Dr Morbius), Thursday, March 14, 2013 8:54 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

its cool, but the church didnt have any skin in the game, point me to where they made an actual hard choice and did the right thing

u guys really don't give a damn that the Church opposed the Iraq war while Hillary 2016 didn'

OK, I'll bite. Who gives a damn about HRC in this thread? And what remember what Stalin said about Rome's political posturing?

no.

they let us eat meat on Fridays now xp

When told the Pope thought Stalin should stop repressing Catholics under his yoke, Stalin famously asked, "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"

oh yeah that perennial

one of the few things the hierarchy gets right is indifference to what dope-smoking atheists think of Catholicism.

Stalin was a sturgeon and vodka man.

was talkin bout ilx democrats

even Haldeman did better than dope-smoking atheists

and u guys really don't give a damn that the Church opposed the Iraq war while Hillary 2016 didn't, cuz that aint about sex.

― Pope Rusty I (Dr Morbius), Thursday, March 14, 2013 8:54 AM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah boy that sure stopped all those Catholics in Congress from voting for it, huh?

There are probably more dope-smoking atheists in the Catholic hierarchy than there are in my house.

Hundreds of thousands of African men and women are going to die because the Church would rather they not wear condoms, but, hey, the Church opposed the Iraq War!

I strongly disagree with the Church's policy on birth control, but I really doubt it has the kind of influence you think it has. Most Catholics use birth control anyways and I really doubt those that don't are the type of people who lead high risk lifestyles for AIDS anyways.

What I mean to say is that the Catholic Church is basically irrelevant right now. If the Pope came out tomorrow and said that it was OK to use birth control I think it would have close to zero impact on condom usage in Africa.

its cool tho its not like there are tons of catholics in the parts of the world most heavily hit by aids or anything

Really don't get how everyone thinks all the Catholics who are a) having extra marital sex, b) having gay sex or c) raping people are somehow too devout to use a condom because the Pope says not to.
If people were going to pay attention to the Pope on condoms they'd surely consider not doing all the other "sinful" stuff and would thus reduce the spread of sexually transmitted disease.

fanoe & onimo otm

also bye, im going back to being my own pope like ive been for 25 years.

its cool, but the church didnt have any skin in the game, point me to where they made an actual hard choice and did the right thing

Well remember when bishops threatened to publicly excommunicate anyone who voted for the war? Oh no wait they did that to people who are pro choice, my bad.

I strongly disagree with the Church's policy on birth control, but I really doubt it has the kind of influence you think it has. Most Catholics use birth control anyways and I really doubt those that don't are the type of people who lead high risk lifestyles for AIDS anyways.

― justfanoe (Greg Fanoe), Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:36 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hah where are you getting this from, this is a terrible thing but based on nothing im sure it has no real world consequences, everyone please look away

Reading articles and growing up Catholic? Here's one example: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/05/23/489006/82-percent-of-catholics-birth-control/

I think it's pretty logical that people who follow the Catholic church's position on birth control (one of the more extreme positions they hold) aren't having premarital sex. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong but for the war on AIDS I think there's way more effective places to focus than the pope's opinion on condoms.

wow i wonder if there are any catholics outside of america

I mean, do you have any support for your figure that the church's position causes hundreds of thousands of people to get AIDS?

as an ex-lutheran this is hilarious to me:

http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Communication-Services/News/Releases.aspx#&&a=5281

"congrats jorge (ps we were right about everything)"

Everything I've read is that lack of condom usage in Africa is pretty universal.

I know we're long past the joke-photos part of the thread but

http://i.imgur.com/TFrCoc7.jpg

Claiming that the aids virus is so small it fits through the netting in a condom cant have helped apathy tbf

I mean, do you have any support for your figure that the church's position causes hundreds of thousands of people to get AIDS?

― justfanoe (Greg Fanoe), Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:59 AM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol i careful work there greg fanhoe but it was alfred who said hundreds of thousands, but anyway lets think abt this for a second, there are a ~billion catholics worldwide, ~150m in africa alone where the aids epidemic is worst, many of whom are very devoted to the church, many of whom didnt grow up in the high information environment that the average message board poster did w sex ed and science education etc, the church says dont use condoms and has even been known to be skeptical of their efficacy, and your argument is basically 'same diff im sure it has no effect', now on top of that the church plays a big role in health care worldwide where they could be putting their full effort into promoting condoms

Really don't get how everyone thinks all the Catholics who are a) having extra marital sex, b) having gay sex or c) raping people are somehow too devout to use a condom because the Pope says not to.
If people were going to pay attention to the Pope on condoms they'd surely consider not doing all the other "sinful" stuff and would thus reduce the spread of sexually transmitted disease.

OTM

except I know people who do these things but wont use condoms. But I'm pretty sure that's because they dont like wearing condoms.

catholic apologists being horrible at logic and understanding human behavior is so shocking

I mean, I don't really want to argue this because I think the Church's position on this is horrible and I really wish they would change it (though I'm 99% sure they won't) so I essentially agree with you. I just think the church's position on this has little influence, but maybe I'm wrong.

Note that I am not apologizing for or defending the church in any way so I don't know why you are calling me a catholoc apologist.

what do you mean by little how many people dying is okay

I don't think the Catholic church's position is OK. I want them to change it and if it even causes 1 death that's too many. I think this:

Really don't get how everyone thinks all the Catholics who are a) having extra marital sex, b) having gay sex or c) raping people are somehow too devout to use a condom because the Pope says not to.
If people were going to pay attention to the Pope on condoms they'd surely consider not doing all the other "sinful" stuff and would thus reduce the spread of sexually transmitted disease.

I don't think the nub of the issue is whether people would suddenly start using condoms. The point is how it makes the catholic church appear to people. Not necessarily the people concerned.

I think the point that is attempting to be made is that the Catholic church's policy is piggybacking off of behavior people are already exhibiting rather than influencing people into unsafe behavior

I don't agree with that position if that is in fact the one being advanced but in general the whole thing strikes me as such a chicken-egg scenario that I am less concerned about assigning blame and more concerned about figuring out how to change the situation to something better

i mean because people dont listen to the church abt not having sex (a thing thats nearly impossible to get people to stop) they wont listen abt not using condoms (a thing that requires education to get people to do)

you cant possibly be serious

without even mentioning that the church is an education institution that could be promoting condoms

Church is p explicit in saying (if not doing) don't fuck anyone in the ass and don't fuck anyone who isn't your spouse - anyone ignoring that does not give one shit about the church saying anything about condoms. I don't see how that logic is flawed.

I also oppose the church's policy on contraception and its flawed/misleading/deliberately wrong sex-ed. I just question its impact on the spread of AIDS.

why would anyone think the actions of one of the largest and most powerful institutions in the world have no effect, it does not make any sense

anyone ignoring that does not give one shit about the church saying anything about condoms.

people have never been known to pick and choose church or biblical teachings to suit themselves?

you really think if the church had been promoting condom use for the last thirty years instead of fighting it the world would look no different

This is all several layers down from the real solution, pope should pray for everyone to be healed

I agree with lag∞n that it could do more educationally to prevent future spread - though it's tied itself to a doctrine that extra-marital sex is sinful. It's difficult to go "don't do this, no really, you'll burn in hell, but if you do..." without looking like you've accepted defeat in one of your key morality battles (that most other don't give a shit about).

I think Benedict XVI attempted to go some way towards it but fucked it up by singling out male prostitutes for some bizarre reason.

Two weeks ago I graded blog posts by two college girls from Columbia who either accompanied friends to abortion clinics or kept their pregnancies secret as long as they could because their Catholic parents had explicitly told them that sex outside marriage is a mortal sin (untrue). Now whether the parents used Church teaching to adduce their own.views who knows, but as the cardinals proved yesterday the Church exerts a powerful influence in South America.

Church is p explicit in saying (if not doing) don't fuck anyone in the ass and don't fuck anyone who isn't your spouse - anyone ignoring that does not give one shit about the church saying anything about condoms. I don't see how that logic is flawed.

― Habemus mundissimo ostentus nomen (onimo), Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:24 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

its a category error, and willfully oblivious to human nature

you really think if the church had been promoting condom use for the last thirty years instead of fighting it the world would look no different

It's been promoting men not fucking men for that period. How did that work out? See also killing, stealing, adultery, coveting ass.

the thing that is so stupid about anti-birth control logic (not just the Catholic Church's logic but the logic in general) is the love affair of CONSEQUENCES that fuels it

like, there are better ways of making your point that someone should think twice about doing something than basically going "haha, now you have an incurable disease, should have thought about that before", like for example saying "it is a greater good to protect people from getting incurable diseases"

punitive responses to things where someone hasn't actually done anything to you are rarely a good look

It's been promoting men not fucking men for that period. How did that work out? See also killing, stealing, adultery, coveting ass.

― Habemus mundissimo ostentus nomen (onimo), Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:30 AM (4 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

its almost like some things are more subject to education than others, i wonder if theres any evidence that education re condoms works while abstinence doesnt, if only this had been tried and studied before

one of the few things the hierarchy gets right is indifference to what dope-smoking atheists think of Catholicism.

yeah i suppose if you've been raped by a priest you numb the pain however you can.

There's also a pretty big gap between the church simply changing its position (which is what I thought we were arguing about) versus actively promoting condom use. I mean, to the extent that

1. Applying money and resources to condom education in Africa is a very important issue
2. The Catholic church is a large organization with tons of money and resources
3. Therefore they should apply these money and resources to this issue

Well, sure, this might make a difference, but it's not at all realistic. To the extent that if Pope Francis came out tomorrow and said "we're changing the Church's position, you can use condoms now" but applied no money or resources to education (at least possible, I suppose), I don't think it would make a real difference at all.

Just want to say lagoon OTM here, seeing as he seems to be alone in understanding how things actually work, and applying relevant logic to the situation.

Also, there is evidence out there that the Catholic church has been spreading misinformation about the efficacy and safety of condom use, which will DEFINITELY have an effect.

I agreed about that upthread and said I oppose their policy on condoms and on misleading sex-ed. I just question how much of an impact they would have on condom use amongst those spreading diseases.

Many teens aren't wise enough yet to pick and choose the doctrines they'll ignore.

To the extent that if Pope Francis came out tomorrow and said "we're changing the Church's position, you can use condoms now" but applied no money or resources to education (at least possible, I suppose), I don't think it would make a real difference at all.

How about if he stopped giving money to people who seek to 'educate' about how condoms are dangerous and the only thing to do is abstain?

you know what I think the Pope should do, is reopen the Hacienda

god it was bad enough the first time round

w/out 'hard' figures i guess it's p difficult to conclude whether the catholic church's policies have contributed to the spread of AIDS in Africa, or elsewhere. but as a lapsed catholic myself, i'm p certain that such policies have contributed massively to the sum of human misery in the world by creating conflicted feelings of guilt, shame, fear, self-loathing etc in believers who don't strictly observe archaic prohibitions - incalculated in schools and churches worldwide - against sexual feelings of all kinds.

so keep fighting the good fight, lagoon.

like, i would be interested to see figures on suicide rates amongst devout gay catholics, just for example

hey it's ok the church is anti suicide too

As I just said it's how it makes the catholic church appear that is the problem. It is a PR problem, noy an HIV/AIDS problem.

The catholic church appears evil and out of touch regardless of their opinions on condoms. I don't think condoms is one of their 5 biggest sins right now.

It would totally make logical sense for the church to come out and support contraception. But this is not a PROGRESSIVE institution. It's funny that sometimes even atheists will say 'Oh i do like the iconography tho!' because that iconography and rituals and all the cool stuff is all there primarily because the focus of the Catholic church is really a heavily mystical interpretation of Christianity. Non-religious folks think religious stuff is made up, and that's fine, but to these people on the inside it isn't so arbitrary. All that imagery has esoteric meaning. The ultimate goal of esoteric Christianity (and i believe, of any religion) is Ego Death, transcendence beyond the worldly realm to the spiritual. Sex is a HUGE part of this, perhaps the biggest part. Through procreation we create life, and every life that is created by man/woman is destined to die. I feel like 'thou shalt not kill' has a little undertone hinting at this too but maybe that's just me. As for self-love, non-procreational sex, etc. it is Le Petit Mort. Whatever spiritual energies or coiled chakras are spent at that moment.

It'd be great if they were totally progressive, but they aren't, they never will be, the progression of people on this planet NOW is good stuff to practice and a good way to embrace selflessness, but the number one priority is bypassing the finite life for the infinite. That they do some bad things does not cancel out the good, unless you really believe there is someone on this planet capable of only doing good.

willfully oblivious to human nature

maybe you could understand the theological mindset here by remembering Kate Hepburn's line from The African Queen: "Nature is what we were put here to rise above."

We were born with original sin according to the catholic church. So apparently we are all sinners no matter what we do. Therefore every day we have to ask for forgiveness for something that is inherent. The implication is that being in the material world is a sin in itself. I would call it Purgatory.

Being born is maybe the first sin? Explains all the anti-women attitudes.

we're born with original sin according to all kinds of christianity.

Irony being other churches dismiss the importance of Jesus' mother

don't they teach this shit in school anymore?

Well the 'virgin birth' thing sort of dismisses the importance of the mother. Seems the mystical reasoning is it symbolizes the futility of effort in trying to transcend, sort of a Zen concept, by negating the ultimate manifestation of the human will. But in order for it to work the suffering of the mother has to be discounted, which is the way things went at the time this was written thousands of years ago.

omg this is worse than people talking about quantum physics

people still don't know the difference between "immaculate conception" and "virgin birth" generally, I wouldn't get my hopes up

xp

oh don't get me started on that

don't they teach this shit in school anymore?

lol goole, iirc nowadays this is what they teach in school: "The answer to problem #34 is (C)."

during my Dedalus period I was unusually touched to learn that Mary had parents, Anna and Joachim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#Original_sin_and_extraterrestrials

wow man

In an interview entitled "Aliens Are My Brother", granted to L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Father José Gabriel Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory, stated: "In my opinion this possibility (of life on other planets) exists"; "intelligent beings, created by God may exist in outer space" and "some aliens could even be free from original sin" concluding "there could be (other beings) who remained in full friendship with their creator".[89][90][91][92] The idea that on other planets beings could exist in an unfallen state was explored by C. S. Lewis in his novel Out of the Silent Planet.

The Fellowship of the Things

Sex was the sin that Adam and Eve committed, therefore all children are the product of sin. A virgin birth was necessary for this reason. Shame we never got to interview Joseph.

Ray Bradbury did a bit about intelligent non-human creatures and the possibility of different biology allowing for new kinds of sins in The Silver Locusts iirc

xxxp So THAT's what that book was about. I wondered as I was reading it.

Asexual reproduction, Goole?

Sex was the sin that Adam and Eve committed

nope

Sex was the sin that Adam and Eve committed, therefore all children are the product of sin. A virgin birth was necessary for this reason

No, that's the Immaculate Conception, via which Mary herself was conceived without original sin despite her parents. Virgin birth was just a bonus.

Sex was the sin that Adam and Eve committed,

no it fucking wasn't!! CHRIST

xps

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

if you care about what the actual theology is - no reason at all why you should, but y'know, if you want to talk about it - this wd be a good thing to read

Disobeying God by having sex

If sex was the original sin, why would God have said, upon creating Eve, "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh?"

Like, he specifically ordered them to do it.

Cant see how the virgin birth dismisses the importance of the mother in any way, but then i can't see how these v high falutin theological concepts are relevant to the vast majority of even practicing catholics.

like how many practicing catholics are there in the entire world? Take lagoon's billion above, start knockin em off from yr list of criteria, knocks boots before marriage, down to idk 200 million, doesnt really think they're eating flesh of christ every sunday, oops 100 million, steaks it up on a friday, ah shit we just lost argentina, there are maybe 50 catholic catholics in the world tbh

This is like Vacation Bible School 101 stuff here.

there are maybe 50 catholic catholics in the world tbh

the rest are paste

i don't think the theology is necessarily relevant to anyone other than theologians, but i do think if you want to talk about it you should have 1 fucking clue what you're talking about

sex = reproduction, which is perpetuating sin

Outdoorfish, were you jerking off during Bible study?

also if you want to pontificate - ha! look what i did! - about why the Church has certain beliefs you shd maybe do some research or use your willful ignorance to make funny.

God made it easy to Adam and Eve: name the animals, walk nude, pork each other. Just don't eat from that tree over there.

you guys don't understand, OutdoorFish thinks eating an apple and having sex are the same thing

probably makes for some awkward lunches

Right, that's why God ordered Noah and his family to "be fruitful and multiply."

xp

Ok have it your way, they were talking about an apple and there really was a talking snake. Yawn.

maybe the original sin was inability to admit to being wrong?

makes you think

it wasn't even an apple!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV

the original sin was disobeying god and eating the fruit of wisdom, not having sex. this isn't really a "have it your way" kind of question

I dont think outdoorfish makin it up out of several confused and contradictory elements is any less valid than someone else doing the same however many years ago, at least not to the extent id raise one hackle a fraction about it on a message board like

just throwing this out there - bring something relevant to the convo or gtfo

Who cares about what their "really" was or wasn't? (Big hint: There's no god anyway.) If the question is, "What does The Church mean when it talks about 'original sin?'" there's no answer that properly includes "Sex" or "Reproduction."

Relevant how to which conversation

it's pretty clear from current interpretations of Scripture that God want Adam and Eve naked and rutting away in his secret sex garden; it was only when they broke into his secret stash and got bashful about their nudity that He got pissed

what Phil just said is much better expressed than my version. atheists pride themselves on rationality so much we ought to bring our A game to being honest and understanding what we think is irrational.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

^^ before the original sin, sex and life were a breeze. now everything is this huge pain in the ass and you have a work for a living! thanks adam! it's an explanation for the human condition.

disobedience was the sin

that they gave me

Learned Old Testament stories in seventh grade around the same time as Greek mythology -- good times.

i was getting into Greek mythology before we did much Bible at school but then i wasn't at a Catholic school

actually unless you went to a Jesuit school students didn't learn much about the Bible in Catholic institutions. Dogma and doctrine >> Bible

not enough eating your own kids in the Bible tbh

actually unless you went to a Jesuit school students didn't learn much about the Bible in Catholic institutions. Dogma and doctrine >> Bible

So true. Page after page of Catechism memorised for year after year but not a sniff of a Bible aside from the readings at Mass.

i recall people complaining in RE there was never any bible stuff.

My grandparents gave me an illustrated Bible one Easter in elementary school; so cool to learn about Cronos swallowing his children while reading about Gideon's trumpet and the adventures of Jezebel.

dont remember memorising anything tho either

not enough eating your own kids in the Bible tbh

You want 2 Kings

28 And the king said unto her, “What aileth thee?” And she answered, “This woman said unto me, ‘Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.’
29 So we boiled my son and ate him. And I said unto her on the next day, ‘Give thy son, that we may eat him’; and she hath hid her son.”

sneaky

lol nice

Souffle the little children

I apologise for my ignorance.

You wont last

They became aware of the sinfulness of sex (against God's wishes) and thereby became sinners for having sex.

xp lol maybe not

As it was explained to me by the nuns; stop asking questions you little bollix *skins thread's knuckles*

any questions

no they didn't, they became sinners for disobeying him - he had no problem whatsoever with all the naked frolicking

xp

Eh but what was the fruit onimo

Outdoorfish, are you getting laid?

pomegranate iirc

Answer obv "whatever it needs to be this time according to Hierarchy requirements" but nonetheless

aye there's pomegranates all over the Bible but not a single banana

not after Adam and Eve cover up, anyway

DJP best theologian in thread

u guys are gonna be like Steve Martin in heaven: "Oh no, in college they said this was all bullshit!"

no we'll be dead iirc

God starts to make a lot more sense when you stop viewing him as a benevolent all-knowing Father and look at him more like a vengeful Roman Polanski

"best theologian" i mean cmon i've read ALL the indices to lord of the rings don't be one of those ppl that discriminate

u guys are gonna be like Steve Martin in heaven

surely we're all going to hell for voting for Obama

so, if you are reuinted with all of your friends and family in Heaven, and Heaven is anything like the Garden of Eden, doesn't that maybe imply that Heaven might be an eternal bonedown with your deceased ancestors?

surely we're all going to hell for voting for Obama

my mom voted for Obama! but i haven't heard from her since she passed.

*i* voted for Obama in Feb 2008.

so, if you are reuinted with all of your friends and family in Heaven, and Heaven is anything like the Garden of Eden, doesn't that maybe imply that Heaven might be an eternal bonedown with your deceased ancestors?

I sat through a sermon about how Heaven was basically the best sex of your life, only it was something even better than sex, and you would be having it with Jesus, every day for eternity

I assumed the pastor & his wife had boned the night before

habemus tantra

no lazy Sundays in heaven

i thought there was no laughing in heaven:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1XZO10S-9s

I assume it's hard to laugh with a mouth full of genitals

lol you 'assume' suuure

well that's why Roman Polanski said you can't laugh and come at the same time

I assume it's hard to laugh with a mouth full of genitals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Paul_II

xp well it's hard to find a 13 year old with a sense of humour sophisticated enough to test that i spose

My friend had a girlfriend who giggled when she came

what did he say when you told him?

he just told you

gimme a girlfriend who comes when she giggles and i'd be set

That why Bobby Davro was such a stud

i would just like to mention, original sin is also sometimes called hereditary sin. the line outdoorfish has been pushing certainly sounds consistent with some of the christian interpretations i've heard.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

From the earliest times the latter sense of the word was more common, as may be seen by St. Augustine's statement: "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here. As to the sin of Adam we have not to examine the circumstances in which it was committed nor make the exegesis of the third chapter of Genesis.

"Original Sin" also the name of a fantastic INXS song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egDJc1HhiZ4

btw goole wtf is this??

In 2009, Lutherans and Catholics celebrated the 10th anniversary of the signing of the Joint Declaration on Doctrine of Justification -- recognized as a significant achievement in the history of Christian ecumenical relations. Signed by representatives of The Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church in Augsburg, Germany, the agreement declares that The Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church have reached a common understanding on justification, agreeing that believers are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and not by works.

huh

Funny, I thought 'works' were a sign of faith for Catholics.

it's their fremme neppa venette, so to speak

yeah j idk it's news to me too

sorry about the thirty years war lol!!

http://www.americancatholic.org/messenger/jun2000/feature2.asp

i can't really tell who lost what and who's saving face here

That reminds me of a Borges story

Yeah, some of what OutdoorFish was talking about reminded me of the Gnostic/Platonic views of matter v spirit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism_and_Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism_and_the_New_Testament#Ethics

Of course, there's also groups such as the Shakers.

Via NYT: 'In a long interview with an Argentine newspaper in 2010, Cardinal Bergoglio defended his behavior during the dictatorship.' Not an encouraging sentence to read about anyone, much less a pope.

Vatican II offered the promise of a church that communicated openly with the modern world. It specifically repudiated the church’s history of anti-Semitism and vowed to pursue dialogue with non-Catholics and non-Christians of many stripes. It held out the possibility of a new dogmatic flexibility in which the church would assert the truth of the Christian Gospels while permitting freedom of conscience on a wide range of issues. Millions of learned words have been written on what was and was not addressed or implied in the ambiguous Latin prose crafted by the bishops and scholars of Vatican II, but it might be fair to sum it all up this way: No specific promises were made about changing church policy on priestly celibacy or the role of women or the moral status of homosexuality or the decentralization of Vatican power. But it was implied or understood by many participants and observers that those issues were potentially on the table, and at least you wouldn’t be punished or excommunicated for discussing them.

There was an ideological counterattack against Vatican II almost immediately, with Cardinal Ratzinger as its intellectual leader, and that became the dominant current in the church hierarchy after the ascension of John Paul II in 1978. Fox believes that the last two popes, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, departed so far from both the letter and spirit of Vatican II — which should have been viewed as the authoritative teachings of the church — that they should be considered “schismatic,” or illegitimate. “In the Catholic tradition, a council trumps a pope,” he says. “A pope does not trump a council.” (In the great tradition of Catholic intellectuals, he cites precedence in the Council of Constance, convened in 1414, which fired three warring popes and appointed a new one.) “What’s happened since John Paul II is that he and Ratzinger have turned back all the basic principles of Vatican II. I would include the principle of freedom of conscience, the principle that theologians have a right to think. They brought the Inquisition back, there’s no question about it.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/16/is_pope_francis_a_fraud/

rhetoric needs lancing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets

Indulgences these days are granted to those who carry out certain tasks – such as climbing the Sacred Steps, in Rome (reportedly brought from Pontius Pilate's house after Jesus scaled them before his crucifixion), a feat that earns believers seven years off purgatory.

But attendance at events such as the Catholic World Youth Day, in Rio de Janeiro, a week-long event starting on 22 July, can also win an indulgence.

Mindful of the faithful who cannot afford to fly to Brazil, the Vatican's sacred apostolic penitentiary, a court which handles the forgiveness of sins, has also extended the privilege to those following the "rites and pious exercises" of the event on television, radio and through social media.

"That includes following Twitter," said a source at the penitentiary, referring to Pope Francis' Twitter account, which has gathered seven million followers. "But you must be following the events live. It is not as if you can get an indulgence by chatting on the internet."

cmon

What the h

embracing new avenues of faith is all

a link to paypal is close to hand i'd imagine

paypal? bull.

rah

i thought they'd abolished purgatory ages back?

dead-child limbo got downgraded a few back but I think purgatory is still around

few years back

ah yeah that's probably it

Theyve isolated it as an offshore profit centre iirc

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702

This is pretty significant.

"The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem."

Moving forward on homosexuality but not closing his eyes to the dangers of MASONS. Good work pope.

Despite it being reported as such - this really isn't a step forward in any way. According to Catholic Social Teaching being gay is not inherently sinful, and the orthodox Catholic view on homosexuals is that they should be treated with equality. They mustn't ever actually act on their desires though - as per the Catechism (which Pope Francis references) 'Every baptised person is called to lead a chaste life ... Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices'.

The media have clearly decided that the narrative for this new Pope is that he is a wonderful chap who will bring the church into the 21st century. While many of the things he has done thus far are admirable, particularly around messages of justice and economic equality, he is still a conservative on matters of sexuality.

It's a step forward in terms of popular perception surely? I mean it's probably too much to expect the Catholic Church to suddenly drop all hangups about sex outside marriage but equally have you heard any Pope previously talk like that?

The lobbying stuff is pretty dodgy admittedly.

All this shows is what narrative the media has chosen for Pope Cuddlestein. It seems that all that has happened is:

Reporter: Women priests?
Pope: Nah
Reporter: Gay priests?
Pope: The Catechism is clear on this, who am I to argue?

The language Pope Francis uses is clearly much more humble/approachable than his predeccessors - which is positive if you care about how the general public feel about the Pope.

blandford OTM

for sure

there are definitely homosexual lobbying groups but afaik the HRC is not aligned with freemasonry

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/world/europe/the-popes-on-the-line-and-everyones-talking.html?hp

lol ahm tha pope, ahl call who ah wahnt