Self-Deprecation: Classic Or Dud

As a defence mechanism self deprecation is the last line before the ego takes over. False self-deprecation, like false modesty, is not only really annoying but really obvious. That said it is not a bad way of working out ones insecurities, watch your ego battle with your self deprecation for the prize of your public image.

A little bit is necessary for everyone I think. Also if you are really good at insults (like what I am) a bit of s-d doesn't go amiss. I can nearly always think of the best insults for myself in a given moment, so often feel free to get out top funny put downs.

Don't mind me - I'm just patting the dirt flat.

Example of place where it goes wrong: sinister mailing list. B&S fan writes bad post then says 'oh well i've bored you enough already so shall just click send... love and raspberry shampoo, pansygirl'.

Obvious flaw: if you can really see how boring and inept your post is, why send it?

Interesting to reflect that some people might think themselves sufficiently good at stuff not to be s-d about it.

eg:

- Tom E is a good writer on music (though often with lamentable opinions) - is he ever s-d about it? ('Oh, well, another bunch of my wretched musings for you to rip apart...')

- Robin C knows incredible amounts re. UK parliamentary politics - does he ever say 'I'm afraid my feeble political knowledge disqualifies me here', etc?

- Ally C96 is fabulous footballer - does he ever say 'Och, ah'm no very guid at the fitba, me'?

I'm not sure of the answers.

And stuff I think I'm good at but get embarrassed by other people saying I'm good at, especially if they seem to think I'm better than I think I am. So I wouldn't say "well I'm a rubbish writer", but if somebody said "you are my favourite music writer" I would be pleased but also think "well that's a bit silly".

I think, actually, that ILE has helped with the former - making myself write about stuff other than music directly is a good way of confronting some of that stuff. Or at least a better way than confronting it obliquely through music crit.

But enough of my yakking - let's boogie.

Yes, I can see this - I mean, it's sometimes as though all your music writing has been evading, yet silently yearning to address, those key questions 'How tall are you?' and 'What's the worst thing ever to come out of your ass?'.

Taking compliments *is* hard. I like the "oh, you're too kind [and now we change the subject]" sort of line.

Complimenter: You're beautiful. Me: You're full of shit. Complimenter: Excuse me? Me: You're full of shit. Why do you have to talk crap? God.

Etc. So now it goes this way:

Complimenter: You're beautiful. Me: (absolute stone silence, slight grin, look away) Complimenter: Um, is that okay? Me: Yeah, I guess so.

It's really not a perfected technique.

By the way, re: your comment on men who find Japanese girls sweeter than you, there's a looooooong way between 'sweeter than Kate and Ally' and 'geisha' (which is a job, not a demeanour). Who's doing the racial stereotyping now?

i mean, what's the point of you?

or not. it is an issue for which there is no right or wrong approach perhaps.

This is what I keep trying to remind myself when Stevem takes it upon himself to tell other people off for their neuroses.

The weird thing is, I was actually in a very very good mood this morning, but it is starting to sour now.

The trouble is, Stevem keeps pinching my butter.

Unless I missed a meeting somewhere, the inevitable answer must be: paranoid delusions of grandeur.

I agree with this, it's very complex though. At present I think I am right to fear it, as to be like that (again) does not seem to have any merit at all. Also as has been pointed out on here in the past I am very very concerned about what other people think, perhaps too much (though I am adamant that some degree of concern is integral to the cohesion of social operation) and perhaps reactions like the one above illustrate that fear rising to the surface due to (unintentional/unaware provocation). I do not apologise for it though. Again, no point.

Sure, some people "milk it" or start using their problems as a social crutch. But that doesn't mean that all self-depreciation, or in some case, I think actually *self examination* is necessarily a pointless or negative exercise.

x-post, Marcello, SHUT UP, are you intent on proving again and again every single negative thing that is getting said on this thread?

Well, how do you imagine people get to that state? Maybe by being slapped and punched about for the first 20 years of their life, laughed at in school, derided for having a funny face/funny eyes/legs/whatever, a life spent being trodden on and shat upon, instils that way of thinking within them to such a degree that no one, however much goodwill they might have, could ever hope to remove it?

As with everything else, it Ain't That Simple.

(Then again, maybe I'm not your principle target, and I'm getting caught in the crossfire because I am so scared myself of falling into the trap of knee jerk self depreciation.)

xpost

again I agree. the question then is are they wrong to criticise? does being in that position invalidate their view? i'd say no, but still fear that the predictability of this response matching predictability of the self-dep spiral in the first place can only cancel out each other rather than defeat it. still i remain convinced that nothing is worse than the grotesque black-hole that self-dep of a certain kind can become, eating up other matter around it, consuming so much, taking but not really giving (unless it's funny).

Sure, some people "milk it" or start using their problems as a social crutch.

Where's the line for tolerating that? Unfortunately the opponents have a different idea about where the line should be, of if there should even be a line at all.

But that doesn't mean that all self-depreciation, or in some case, I think actually *self examination* is necessarily a pointless or negative exercise.

Again I agree, but I think my personal line has been clearly drawn. Unfortunately I have no real way to stop people walking over it as I have no real authority (not even to draw a line in the first place). File under 'just sayin laik'.

What it boils down to is that you object to their/our (I'm still not sure where I fit in) behaviour because it makes YOU uncomfortable, not becuase you think it's not good for us. And I don't have any patience with that.

As for myself, I think I genuinely have made progress, because I'm able to say things like "OK, I am making the choice not to be in a relationship because I don't feel ready for one" rather than saying the typical Kate self depreciating "Oh my god, I'm ugly and horrible and no one would want to go out with me anyway."

To me, that's a big step forward. And I'm not having anyone - either you or Marcello - taking that sense of accomplishment and forward-moving away from me!

I don't think this is true. Put it round the other way: often it's other people who help you through. I think you have whatever the fuck rights you want, really -- if people don't like it, they can say. Single-handedly you can't change a person, it's true, not consciously. But you do, all the same -- two people in a relationship change one another, there's no escaping it.

I don't think I am confused. That can only be your view. It just strikes me that there is TOO MUCH of the WRONG KIND of 'self-examination' (incidentally, how much of the self-examination doesn't refer to obsessions, regret, paranoia etc. i.e. accepted negative traits, behaviours, feelings - if any?) going on, that people either have different ideas or just don't know what TOO MUCH of the WRONG KIND is, and that a public msg board is surely not the best place for TOO MUCH of the WRONG KIND ultimately...not when it's going to fail to really progress (i am big routinophobe). but then perhaps public msg boards can only be doomed to circuitry anyway.

Stevem is *constantly* calling me on my "negativity" (for lack of a better word) and we have these discussions with alarming regularity. Does it actually change my behaviour? No, it just makes us have another go at one another. In fact, if anything, I start feeling even more hostile towards him because I feel criticised, and therefore take it personally *every* time he starts his carping.

Honestly. You fundamentally can't change other people. You can only change your reactions to them.

x-post blah blah blah. If I was going to change my behaviour, don't you think it would have happened TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO, the first time that you "called me on it". I'm NOT SORRY that my self examination makes you uncomfortable. I think you need to grow up, and stop being so BLOODY ENGLISH about other people DARING to express their emotions in the unfortunately vicinity of your virgin ears.

Implication that I somehow would want to deny you this is not helpful. Didn't want yet another thread to be about you and your problems (what business are they to me after all? tho you refer to them so much - I know that sounds harsh but...that's my point about this being a public place I guess). Our arguing seems futile unfortunately but I would like you to believe that I am far from opposed to the idea of you making progress or being happy. I just can't see this amount of 'self-examination' being helpful to anyone.

Doesn't mean I can't keep complaining and musing though. Maybe I do it because it helps ME, and I am as 'selfish' as the 'self-examiner' in that respect. Is this good, bad or meh for the board? All three I think.

Now, we have three choices about what we can do.

1) You can continue making your snide comments, and I can continue rising to them, and we will get into the same old potato/potahtoe routine over and over ad infinitum.

2) You can continue making your snide comments, and I will make the choice to completely ignore you, but the repressed antagonism will spill over IRL to make FAPs awkward and uncomfortable.

3) You can just shut the fuck up with your endless circular criticisms.

Take your pick!

Do you not ever think that this abandon is why you feel as you do about things? When does other people's comfort no longer matter, if it ever does?

I think you need to grow up

This is all part of that process

and stop being so BLOODY ENGLISH about other people DARING to express their emotions in the unfortunately vicinity of your virgin ears.

i'm not opposed to this, i just think there's a limit and you're way way over it. but my opinions are evidently worthless to you (tho i doubt i will stop expressing them as you do yours). so carry on ignoring/dismissing criticism (which can't really be proven right or wrong) and keep up the public neurosis if you really believe that's the way forward.

also this is a big shame cos we get (got?) on well at FAPs etc. like i said above, it's criticism with what i think are ultimately good intentions, not bad, fwiw (but only mentalists irrevocably fascinated with human behaviour actually bother with this huh? hey that's why i ranted at calum too)

Not neccesarily - sometimes low self esteem can cause the opposite effect i.e bigging up small achievements in an attempt to boost esteem.

Someone who thinks it's perfectly OK to go posting pictures of themselves in their underwear on the interweb thinks that *I* am guilty of sharing TMI.

In your own gestures:

(mod edit - pic of stevem in his pants from this thread)

This has nothing to do with what is good for me or not, though you keep dressing it up in such hypocritical terms. (Despite the fact that most of the time, ILX is actually *helpful* for me in a lot of these matters.) Why should I care about your discomfort if you don't care about mine?

Why should I care about your discomfort if you don't care about mine?

If we were friends would you not do this? It seems we are not because of how we both behave on ILX (i'm sure we'd get on fine IRL without it). You're doing too much of something people don't like, and when they call it out, they don't seem to get 'hey maybe you're right i'll give that a try' even tho you know what you do is wrong because you spend more time talking about how wrong it is on here than anyone else, no?

you're not on trial, you're just getting the criticism/advice you invite (do you not think you invite it with this excessive behaviour?)

Not "People" - just YOU. I don't see anyone else complaining. In fact, I've experienced a lot of mutual support in the past few weeks.

And I just don't think that you are qualified to judge me. I don't think that you've had anything like the same experiences, upbringing, and we don't even think in even remotely similar ways. You don't ever ask *why* I act the way that I do, or ask if it does something for me, you just blanket condem it because you disapprove of it.

(do you not think you invite it with this excessive behaviour?)

Replace "excessive" with "expressive" behaviour, thank you, and no, I don't think that my behaviour over the past day has been excessive. And no, I don't think I "invite" or deserve this extended tirade from you.

In fact, I think it's totally ironic that you choose to have such a go at me when, if anything, my behaviour has been fairly toned DOWN.

To be perfectly honest, I don't like you. I find you small-minded and intolerant and hyper-critical. And I often see *you* treating others in way that I disapprove of. Do I call you on it, "for your own good"? No, I don't. I think "that's none of my business, I wouldn't do it that way in a million years, but that's his life." I just wish that you would show me the same respect.

my intolerance on/towards ILX has certainly worsened. i thought about quitting like so many before but it's proving difficult (my weakness, no doubt). perhaps this will be the necessary extra push?

i am curious as to the 'treating others in ways i disapprove of' thing. it makes me sound like a nasty character. i would not like people to think that, i try to be nice and helpful in my own way - something the growing intolerance may have impeded that in the last year. i will continue to think about that. i don't think i have really done anything 'wrong' here though. i like to thrash issues around and hopefully out rather than just ignore or avoid them if they bother me for whatever reason. if they can't be resolved satisfactorily then that's too bad. it's a shame about the way one person ends up interpreting things other than how the other person intended isn't it.

there is another photo of me somewhere, fully clothed, fingers reversed.

I'm not getting involved in this little spat, but I'd like to point out that both these statements are incorrect.

Firstly, my bringing up the underwear photo thing was a deliberate move, as well as a joke on TMI. To be perfectly honest, people posting photos of themselves in semi-sexual poses on this board makes me uncomfortable. I just think it's inappropriate, it changes the atmosphere of the board from friendly/flirty to a locker room atmosphere, and also, it's something I would never do in a million years. I don't want my friends to know what I look like naked, and I don't *want* to know what they look like naked. But I don't make criticisms or condemnations, and I don't go on the thread and say "this is gross, y'all" because if it floats your boat, then carry on, so long as I don't have to participate and/or read.

And I guess I feel the same way about my online neurosis, whether other people choose to read it as self examination or as self depreciation.

The other thing is, talking about the Newly Happy as being like ex-smokers. I hate born-agains of every nature. I can't stand being around either newly converted Vegetarians, or newly converted Feminists, either, even though I would call myself both a vegetarian and a feminist. Because someone has recently made some kind of a choice for themselves, they suddenly feel the need to thrust this choice upon the rest of the world.

But you know what? Other people fundamentally have the right to be unhappy or self destructive or whatever else.

The immediate impulse is to tell people "Look! I made this choice, and you can, too, because it was easy!" with the subtext of annoyance that others are somehow stupid, or worse, lazy, because they can't make the same change. And also the prostheletisation serves to somehow re-justify a very recent choice that the born-again may still be struggling with or trying to affirm. It's not fair to use other people as a tool for your own justification.

Oscar Wilde

luckily it doesn't happen every day. so i enjoy the novelty of it. and recently i have become relaxed/foolhardy enough to participate in that shit, which i feel is a 'good' thing (whoops nearly posted a self-deprecating comment there...but would it have been funny??)

Because it *is* a thin line between self depreciation and self examination, and it is up to the person themselves to say where that line is. And I still believe that self examination is actually a good and helpful thing for some people, including myself.

x-post, OTM.

who said this?

This isn't the way that I see it going, though. It's more like:

x: Makes negative comment about self, trying to examine why they feel so negative about themselves.
y: oh don't do that, it's rubbish, if you didn't do that this much i'm sure you'd feel better
x: stop telling me what not to do, it actually makes me feel worse about myself to feel criticised and controlled when I am trying to make myself feel better
y: but can't you see the problems it causes?
x: problems to whom? to me or to you?
y: GOD YOU ARE SO NEGATIVE
x: bah

i'll just issue the ultimate moderator request once again: everything in moderation

Except, I *don't*.

In the past week, whinging about stuff on ILX, and the advice that many people have helpfully offered has actually made me come to terms with several thing in the past week, including but not limited to:

-finding an explanation for a confusing breakup
-helping me realise that I deserve a promotion at work, despite recent setbacks
-giving me the confidence to realise a long-term dream of a trip to Paris

All that stuff has been incredibly positive. But I don't feel like that is what Stevem is doing. He seems to be saying "snap out of it!" and I'm not sure if he's saying it to a person in specific, or to ILX in general.

Probably because other people know it will do no good to say anything to you, because you will continue to carry on and on and ON no matter what anyone says. I am logged out for this because this thread is fair evidence that you persecute and ridicule anyone who dares say anything remotely critical of you.

Probably because other people know it will do no good to say anything to you, because you will continue to carry on and on and ON no matter what anyone says.

Well, if you've made this decision, then good for you, and I thank you for it now. Because that does a lot more good both for ILX and for me and for your cowardly self than this endless circle that Stevem and I get trapped in.

So you feel that your own choices must be validated by other people sharing them or by imposing them on other people?

i'd add 'in public' and 'again, in what seems a needless tail-chasing fashion'

stop telling me what not to do, it actually makes me feel worse about myself to feel criticised and controlled when I am trying to make myself feel better

it struck me as a 'drinking more to ease the pain caused by drinking' type thing basically

problems to whom? to me or to you?

well i think to both, and others - hence all this, but i can't really prove it can i? nor can you prove otherwise?

You seem to think that over-self-analysis is the heart of my problems, rather than the solution to far more longterm problems of which you have no experience.

I do it "in public" because it means that occasionally people will step in with helpful advice - such as the amazing things that Archel suggested on the confidence thread (and others emailed me offboard to suggest).

if i'd never revived this thread and ignored the things i'd read that bugged me, none of this would've happened

if i'd revived this thread and the other people (very quick, very defensive because they sensed it as a personal attack...which it can be classed as because of the timing but i wanted it to be a general complaint and not get bogged down in all this again tho like a pool filled with the tears of a billion petty quarrels it's always 'lovely' once you're in) had just ignored it/stayed silent the none of this would've happened either

what does this prove? very little i'm afraid

You seem to think that over-self-analysis is the heart of my problems, rather than the solution to far more longterm problems of which you have no experience.
I remain convinced that it is more the former than the latter if not equal balance. is it naivety to bother mentioning it 'on the pitch'? maybe, but i don't care, i am stubborn and wish to change situations (not people)

All I know is that I started this day in a fantastic mood, very happy and positive. And over the course of the day I've come to feel criticised, misunderstood, and alienated. Mainly because of this thread revival and the things said by all of us on it.

Yeah, it's stupid to let myself be affected by something so petty as this thread. And, at the end of the day, I *don't* actually care what either you or anonymous cowards think of me.

But what have either of us achieved here? Have you reached any kind of greater understanding of the psychology of individuals or groups? Have you changed my opinions or my behaviour in any way shape or form? Or have you just needlessly upset a couple of insecure people, yet again?

I hope I forget this conversation ten minutes into the train ride home. But unfortunately that doesn't always happen, does it?

That's all I'm asking.

both and neither i imagine, tends to be how things go

Yeah, it's stupid to let myself be affected by something so petty as this thread.
Criticism is important, I felt it constructive, you didn't. Too bad.

Have you reached any kind of greater understanding of the psychology of individuals or groups?

No, I have not learned anything I didn't already know deep down I don't think.

Or have you just needlessly upset a couple of insecure people, yet again?
And you'll never change my mind that nothing is more needless than your methodology here. If you're going to self-explore in public you risk the criticism for it from others who don't really come here for that (but they don't have to read it...and indeed they don't, on the threads where it's concentrated and doesn't spill over into threads about something else entirely e.g. going to the pub), same with any public place (i don't mind if it's kept to threads where it's specifically implied it's about self-exploring and neuroses therapy etc.). Upsetting people is a consequence but seldom an intention for me. Expecting every single other person in the vicinity to suppress thoughts of distaste and not criticise is completely unrealistic and just highlights the folly of both practices.

But now we have established once and for all that neither of us are going to change how we feel about it, there is no cause to argue further. Nothing we do or say will change the other's mind. Hopefully I won't forget that again. Very problematic situation.

I wonder if I'll be accused of having a schtick? ;}

A little self-deprecation for the sake of being a mild substitute of modesty while with company isn't terrible at all.. it's just something you don't want to establish as something you exhibit all the time.

This is certainly a problem with me -- I don't even realize I'm doing it half of the time. I'm making a concious effort not to do it anymore, because I know that can be annoying. Of course, that ends up sounding like self deprecation again, but I'm just trying to acknowledge why it's bad.

As has been mentioned a million times on this thread, there's a line between self-deprecation coming from someone who is comfortably amused with their faults, and that coming from someone who is overwhelmed and fighting with them.

I'm not sure I'm the best person to try to answer this question. No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to get the hang of this self-deprecation business. Maybe I'm not cut out for it or something. Silly me. Ha ha.

-- The Phantom of the Operating System (masonicboo...), February 2nd, 2005.

For fuck's sake Kate, that wasn't me. Check your ISP addresses/facts first before you start talking about "anonymous cowards."

Am I alone in finding Kate's narcissistic self-pity even more inappropriate than usual given the mutual friend of ours who is currently suffering from REAL and GENUINE problems? Now that's what I call "cowardice."

We've all grown accustomed to you using your own personal tragedy as a crutch or a stick to beat others with. So now you're even stretching so far as to adopt other peoples' tragedies as an even greater stage for your flagellation. Congratulations.

::claps slowly::

I was genuinely upset by this whole argument yesterday, to the point where I hadn't forgotten about it by the time I got home. Now, clearly, I wouldn't have been so upset if you hadn't touched some kind of a nerve.

There is a difference between constructive criticism and negative criticism. I felt that your comments were over that line. Maybe you weren't even talking about me to start with. But part of the problem with depression (and self depreciation can often be a symptom of that) is that one is that, faced with half a dozen positive comments and one negative comment, one will choose to dwell on the negative comment.

How little you understand my processes (and the processes of other self depreciants I have known) is demonstrated in your sample converstaion between x and y. I don't treat ILX as "my shrink". If anything, yes, I often treat it as my support group. This is an aspect that I often feel that you miss. Conversations go something like:

x: oh, I'm a Rubbish Person
a: oh no, you're not. what happened? why do you say that?
x: a Bad Thing happened to me. that makes me a Rubbish Person
b: actually a Bad Thing once happened to me, too. i felt a bit Rubbish, too
x: wow, that's really heartening, I don't feel so alone ::hugs b::
a: a Bad Thing happened to me, too, actually - but it didn't happen to me because I was a Rubbish Person, it happened because Bad Things Just Happen
x: wow, c, I don't think of you as a Rubbish Person at all. maybe *none* of us are Rubbish People at all! Please tell us what you did or thought differently!
a: well, it happened like this...
b: that's really amazing! i feel better too, now!

a, b and x all hug and continue swapping encouraging stories about overcoming their feelings of Rubbishness

Now that is a very real and positive way in which behaviour that some people might see as self depreciation can be shared in a way that makes everyone feel better.

If you don't like it, you do not have to read it or participate in it. But please do not try to tell me that I shouldn't do something which I find helpful.

I try not to "spill over" but you know what? It's like the football analogy. I loathe football, I don't want to read about it. But often your conversations spill over onto other threads, onto FAP threads and the like. I deal with it. So can you. Live and let live.

which is fair enough. it's nothing i don't do. but you don't fool me kate. not for a nanosecond. i speak the same language remember?

Don't kid yourself that we speak the same language. We never have and we never will. Stop projecting, I won't be your mirror, just leave me alone.

don't worry kate, i'll leave you alone, just as everyone else will in the end.

What I don't understand is why, if you can so clearly see these problems in yourself, you don't do something about it.

Seriously, for the first time ever I actually empathise with you.

Kate:

I was genuinely upset by this whole argument yesterday, to the point where I hadn't forgotten about it by the time I got home. Now, clearly, I wouldn't have been so upset if you hadn't touched some kind of a nerve.

I was troubled by it too, but upsetting is an inevitable consequence of confrontation. Why confront? It's a trait of mine I indulge in sometimes, but mainly I just totally disagree with the quantity (more than what it actually is) of neurosis/self-analysis/self-obsession (which it clearly is to me) you indulge in on a public level, and ended up questioning it in the same public space, though the original comment was not directed at you specifically (you turned the thread into being about you, which is what happens a lot on a number of threads - which I feel is problematic hence the complaint). it's ONLY criticism after all. And if you don't heed my advice then I'm sure I'll get over it.

There is a difference between constructive criticism and negative criticism. I felt that your comments were over that line. Maybe you weren't even talking about me to start with. But part of the problem with depression (and self depreciation can often be a symptom of that) is that one is that, faced with half a dozen positive comments and one negative comment, one will choose to dwell on the negative comment.

If you're that depressed I strongly recommend you don't talk about it so much in this public domain, so that these problems and conflicts do not occur. I'm not the first to call it out and I won't be the last. You can choose to ignore that advice as you have done before of course. I myself am attempting to not post or read as much during the day (far too distracting, and yes things wind me up, and i don't really get wound up that easily - i can be very tolerant a lot of the time, tho i am also well known for being a moany git at other times).

How little you understand my processes (and the processes of other self depreciants I have known) is demonstrated in your sample converstaion between x and y. I don't treat ILX as "my shrink". If anything, yes, I often treat it as my support group. This is an aspect that I often feel that you miss. Conversations go something like:

x: oh, I'm a Rubbish Person
a: oh no, you're not. what happened? why do you say that?
x: a Bad Thing happened to me. that makes me a Rubbish Person
b: actually a Bad Thing once happened to me, too. i felt a bit Rubbish, too
x: wow, that's really heartening, I don't feel so alone ::hugs b::
a: a Bad Thing happened to me, too, actually - but it didn't happen to me because I was a Rubbish Person, it happened because Bad Things Just Happen
x: wow, c, I don't think of you as a Rubbish Person at all. maybe *none* of us are Rubbish People at all! Please tell us what you did or thought differently!
a: well, it happened like this...
b: that's really amazing! i feel better too, now!

a, b and x all hug and continue swapping encouraging stories about overcoming their feelings of Rubbishness

I know those conversations happen on ILE and sometimes I am part of them - that's not what the criticism is about really (it's a quantity and quality issue). I don't really want to understand your process tho - and to suggest I should before criticising seems daft, given I've thought about these issues a lot and am confident enough in my reasoning to object as I do. I spent a long time learning to understand my own. I did it a different way. I didn't do it to excess on a public msg board. I talked to friends online about it a lot in private. They were supportive but a couple of them told me they'd never known anyone analyse things so much or beat themselves up so much. Just goes to show huh? I don't have a major problem with you or anyone treating ILX as your support group (tho I don't think this is a good idea in general myself and private discussion with friends you can trust is surely better), it's just the way that creeps into other topics - this isn't the first thread you've made about you because imo the self-obession is out of control and has been for a long time. If you really think it's actually working and not affecting other people on the board (and I know people who have been turned off the board by the quantity of excessive self-obession/examination and wallowing by others) then go ahead, I'll just have to skip more threads and lines etc. I guess. Yes I know this sounds wankerish, I don't enjoy saying it but I don't enjoy not saying anything about it either to be honest.

If you don't like it, you do not have to read it or participate in it. But please do not try to tell me that I shouldn't do something which I find helpful.

You might as well say 'if you don't like my criticism don't read it or respond. What if I find THIS 'helpful'? (headfuck)

I try not to "spill over" but you know what? It's like the football analogy. I loathe football, I don't want to read about it. But often your conversations spill over onto other threads, onto FAP threads and the like. I deal with it. So can you. Live and let live.

Yes but football is a massive phenomenon enjoyed by a huge range of people. Your excessive self-examination just can't compare.

So if I make a half-jokey half-serious criticism about excessive self-deprecation/self-examination on ILE again in the future, will you be telling me to 'shut up'?

this is the key statement. it suggests we shouldn't object or criticise when we disagree with or feel concern about someone to the extent that normal encouragement, sympathy and supportive comments (forced or sincere) lose their power (and when people fish for them in public that's the worst thing for me, hence the original complaint not directed at any one person).

Example of place where it goes wrong: sinister mailing list. B&S fan writes bad post then says 'oh well i've bored you enough already so shall just click send... love and raspberry shampoo, pansygirl'.

Obvious flaw: if you can really see how boring and inept your post is, why send it?

what if i said to you that ilx works for me as a catharsis, that it allows me to exorcise elements of my personality which would otherwise be unpresentable?

you would probably respond: "you can't use ilx as a lavatory. buy a drum kit. take up transcendental meditation. don't come and dump all your pain on us as though we were a human landfill." which would be fair comment.

but the trouble is.........

i'm hooked!

can't kick the habit!

at least i'm honest about it, albeit wilfully powerless. what's the answer? only one way out? tried it. apart from the inevitable way out which will be happening soon anyway. therapy didn't work. nor did drugs. friends are non-existent and ilx isn't the place to make them - life is. my life is austere and monastic but that's my choice.

i've made myself less vulnerable than, say, kate, but that was done out of necessity.

how would any of this translate into real life? it wouldn't and doesn't. at faps none of this would come to pass. you and kate and i would just sit in our usual separate corners and talk to the usual people we talk to. so perhaps ilx acts as an exorcising catalyst for all of us? who's to say? it's an ugly mess whichever way you look at it.

so thanks, stevem, it isn't of much practical use to me at the moment, but that is not your fault. i don't have the guts to do the decent thing.

naturally i am not making an exception here as far as i myself am concerned.

It seems to me that most of the people in this position, for whatever reason, are often people with talent, drive and creativity who, if only they could apply it to their problems, could change their situation for the better. (I am not only thinking of ILX poeple here). I also think that many people in this position feel that by coming out of the 'hole' they may be in danger of compromising and giving too much of themselves away. In other words their situation as 'unjustly misunderstood' is something precious to them that almost defines them. Coming out of the hole would require dumbing down and becoming 'ordinary'.

i'm certainly not asking for sympathy. that is another of my troubles. i can sympathise but never empathise (i enormously respect people who can do the latter and do it well).

in certain cases it's like asking the patient with two broken legs to stop whingeing and just get up and walk. just because some of us don't have bandages doesn't mean we're not unwell or that we're not trying to find ways out of our illness. i am sorely aware that i'm no more than one or two unsafe steps away from being sectioned.

work for 18 months to get the book into shape and then you find out that the person you were dealing with at the publishers has upped and left and no one else there has the slightest fucking clue who you are.

get into a relationship with someone else and then they up and leave you because you're not rich or handsome enough.

so tell me what am i supposed to do when every single time i stick my head above the parapet i get fucking shot down?

honestly, yeah, i really do. if you accept it as part of yourself and live with it rather than trying to fight it. personally i think all the really happy people i know - you know the sort: permasmiling, never a bad word to say about anyone or anything types - are far more deluded/have bigger problems than someone who's willing to see life for what it is and face it head on. trying to be that kind of happy is absolutely impossible for me and i know because i've tried! however, seeing life as a series of challenges set up specifically to piss you off/try to break you and believing you'll come out the winner is a much better way for me.

Dr C absolutely right here. This applies to me to the letter - and clearly my ILE persona demonstrates nasty, unpalatable aspects of my personality I'd very much like to be different.

The various pressures to change - trying to be an essentially good person, trying not to hurt both friends and strangers, trying to fit in with societal norms, trying not to abuse your boddy, etc. - all contribute to making me, with experience, maturity and self-awareness, a better person. I hope. If you're not perfect, then surely a desire to change aspects of yourself is natural and positive? Or is it?

You may as well say to them "you're such a negative vibe merchant who should stop boring us all with your failings, at least I'm happy with my own life not like you"

Because that's how they'll read it anyway.

Asking yourself why it happens is step 1. Ask others too, but don't be surprised if you don't like what you hear.

You've said it yourself many times on here, you're hard work. So do something about it - let people in.

-- Ste (ste.foste...), February 4th, 2005.

yeah, you have to count on it being 'not all the time'! otherwise you might as well give in.

About two hundred humans turned up at the Albert Ellis Institute, whose headquarters are in a six-story town house on East Sixty-fifth Street, to celebrate the founder's birth with a day of workshops and symposiums, followed by a catered shindig. Ellis is thin and birdlike, with a prominent nose, and he wears large, black-framed glasses. His voice is high and nasal, and when he gets excited it swoops from a goosey honk to a gullish screech. A gastrointestinal infection almost killed him last year, but now he seemed in fine form. Throughout the day, he held forth on a range of topics, from tolerance ("I don't damn any person, including Stalin, Hitler, and President Bush") to self-esteem ("the worst sickness known to man or woman, because it says, 'I did well, therefore I am good,' which means that when I do badly-back to shithood for me") and aging ("None of us can change the fact that we're going to get older and die-too fucking bad").

Adam Green, the New Yorker, 10-13-03

- John Peel: turned it into an art-form.

- Hugh Grant: hideous to watch his self-deprecation schtick

- Paul McCartney: overdoes it, and then undermines himself by insisting on McCartney-Lennon credits

Z S: an ongoing public humiliation, vol. 1 of 5

pg. 239: realizing you've mispronounced 'banal' for your entire life

"bay-nall"?

pg. 240, remembering that you once gave an awful presentation on adolf eichmann in which you probably mispronounced "banal" several dozen times within 20 minutes

banal rhymes with anal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/leicester/content/images/2006/10/19/dmu_head_in_hands_315x420.jpg

i'm giving that one a big BOOHOO

I've been pronouncing it as "bah-nhal" all my life. Does this mean that people secretly think I'm part sheep?

i pronounce jicama like it's a racist syrup NEVER APOLOGIZE

I think both pronunciations are accepted

Pretty much my favourite kind of humour. If you're good at it, you'll always make me laugh. Conversely, I sometimes have a hard time relating to people who are seemingly unfamiliar with it. Part of being Canadian, I suppose.

"banal rhymes with anal"

Wait, what? Get out.

I pronounce it like a portmanteau of 'banana' and 'anal'.

no, no, I'm saying that's how I was mispronouncing it.

I didn't make that clear at all, sorry!

although I guess Michael is correct that both pronunciations are accepted. but still.

banal like anal probably passed into acceptance by the perseverance of a stout few, who, when presented with rebukes to follow the french fashion, said, "NON!"

I've always rhymed it with anal. I think the first time I ever heard bah-NAHL was on an ST:TNG episode.

banal probe?

^^ happens everyday
nothing special

I've never heard banal like anal! Too bad DJP is in Asia cause banal like anal totally needs to be a display name.

done

(I was getting bored with Rimming the Sky anyway)

I did think you meant that is how it's supposed to be pronounced and got sort of worried for a second that I'd had it wrong my whole life. Not that it's a word I frequently say outloud. If both pronunciations are accepted then you were prob fine. Or a whole room of people were giggling on the inside cause you kept almost saying anal. Either way, don't sweat it!

Anal'd Schwarzenegger

I've been pronouncing detritus wrong my whole life

de-trite-arse

for whatever reason I have been blind to the second t in the word, I am trying not to think about how that could have happened because it is a pretty crazy concept to willfully not be able to properly just read a word

like I said it wrong once and then after that wasn't able to read it correctly because some part of my brain knew the shame I would feel

Personally, I fall on the bahnall side since we got it from French and the etymology tends that way.

Yeha, bahnall all the way. Even if it's correct banal like anal is just a little too much, well, anal for my liking.

since we're kind of talking about butts i may as well post this award-winning iphone picture i took last night at the local jumbo slice place:
http://i45.tinypic.com/6prknl.jpg
there's a connection to this thread because i was very self deprecating while i was in the restaurant.

for whatever reason I have been blind to the second t in the word, I am trying not to think about how that could have happened because it is a pretty crazy concept to willfully not be able to properly just read a word

I took that extra T and put it into "sentient", which led to me using the word "sentinent" in a paper in college. I don't know, I'd just always read it that way!! Maybe from, I dunno, "sentinel"??

I just realized that I've always read detritus as deritus so there you go. I don't think I've ever actually said it though.

Same Latin root eventually, Laurel

DeTRYtus

Oh god my confusion extended into my not even realizing it wasn't an extra t but an extra n! The shame, the shame. It's because in the correct spelling, the first t isn't heard. Anyway. Whatever. You know.

For a long time I pronounced 'ceramic' as 'kremic'.

This thread is reviving deeply-repressed memories connected with the word "epitome"

oh no!

When I was a kid, I pronounced the word 'chaos' as 'chews'.
Also during a sales presentation I pronounced 'Psion' (as in Psion Organiser, the electronic gadget) as 'Piss-on'.

irl giggles

snoball: "So, you want to get a piss-on?"
<silence>
snoball: "I mean, oh shit no hahahaha I meant Psion hahaha... oh"
(lost) client: "Er, yeah... We'll get back to you."

detritus gets said as detrius to me because THERE IS AN ILX THREAD WITH IT MISSPELLED IN THE TITLE

the first t isn't heard.

What?

see that would the genuine lol that would get you that sale, if I was the client

it totally is heard, it's deh-trite-us

what if you have damaged hearing. WHAT THEN

No, in "sentient."

sentinent brings the lols

self-depreciation

The pronunciation of banal is not settled among educated speakers of American English. Sixty years ago, H.W. Fowler recommended the pronunciation (bān'əl, rhyming with panel), but this pronunciation is now regarded as recondite by most Americans: no member of the Usage Panel prefers this pronunciation. In our 2001 survey, (bənāl') is preferred by 58 percent of the Usage Panel, (bā'nəl) by 28 percent, and (bə-nl') by 13 percent (this pronunciation is more common in British English). Some Panelists admit to being so vexed by the problem that they tend to avoid the word in conversation. Speakers can perhaps take comfort in knowing that these three pronunciations each have the support of at least some of the Usage Panel and that none of them is incorrect. When several pronunciations of a word are widely used, there is really no right or wrong one.

I'm now reciting "sentinentenel" in my head like a mantra

and loling

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/40/SentinelsFilmation.JPG/250px-SentinelsFilmation.JPG
Space Sentientenels

Laurel, do you pronounce it 'senchent'? I actually do pronounce it sen-tee-ent.

Obviously since I'd been reading it wrong for about 10 years by the time someone corrected me, I have no real idea. IS it sen-tee-ent?

sencha tea

I think both are acceptable in AE

's ent I ent

Pronunciation/spelling problems of old:

unwieldy = unwieldly
fruition = FROOT-EE-ON

pair-uh-diggem

i always mispronounce "barrage"

the -age sounding like in garbage

rage at the bar, barrage

pair-uh-diggem

― mh, Wednesday, May 9, 2012 1:43 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol, was about to post exactly that

i remember my dad giving me a sci-fi novel called the CTZ paradigm when i was about 12, then making an embarassed face when i had trouble with the title. fuck you dad, i'm twelve. of course i can't pronounce "paradigm".

In first grade, a friend of mine pronounced 'yellow' as 'lellow'. I think I spent a couple of years after paranoid that I was saying it wrong.

llelo not lello

jeez. every once in a while i cross-post a GIF at imgur when i think it might hold broader appeal. usually it sinks to the bottom of the endless flow of images with no comment. so last night i submitted something and tossed off a self-deprecating title without even thinking about it - http://imgur.com/gallery/CkZtnai - and went to bed. overnight it blew up a little bit and made the front page and then the comment section exploded in anger!

i realize the angry comments were more about a violation of the imgur community's norms (don't whine about not making the front page or people not liking your shit), which i wasn't even thinking about because i rarely use imgur or pay attention to the comments of the people who use it. but beyond that, there seemed to be a lot of real hatred for self-deprecation in general, which made me think of this thread. i've always been pretty self-deprecating. it started from a real physical cause - i was the shortest and skinniest kid in school until 11th grade and people were constantly making fun of me (yeah yeah boo hoo) and doing really embarrassing things to me (like literally stuffing me in a locker or hanging me up on a coat hook until my shirt fell apart), and the only way out of that hell was to join in and make fun of myself before they did, in a way that was funnier than they could do. that became an instinct. it's something i've consciously tried to steer away from as i've gotten older, because i've been at the party with the really deprecating person and while it's really charming up to a point, it can become annoying when it dominates a personality.

but anyways, self deprecation! imgur! GIFs, cats into space, downvotes, upvotes, DVs and UVs, front pages and online threats of physical assault! 2014 - GET INTO IT

i never thought that that site might have an actual community, but i guess it exists

people on the internet freaking out about stupid things is not so surprising, especially after posting here for so long.

yeah, they definitely have one. and i don't blame them for their reaction i guess (even though collectively they seem to trend toward misogyny and broism). it's kind of like if someone showed up here and started a Kid A poll as their first post.

Or ever

imgur was started by some dudes on reddit if that explains anything.

can you imagine

Classic when funny, Dud when sad

It’s almost my entire personality, so a complete dud.

Well it’s less dud than others-depreciation so you’ve got that going for you

It’s almost my entire personality, so a complete dud.

― Jeff

i take my hat off to you - truly expert self-deprecation

Self-depreciation for me is just a mixture of honesty and the setting of high standards for yourself, both of which seem to be fundamentally good things. The only problem is when you are communicating with people who believe (to some extent) in the magical power of positive thinking. Unfortunately in the age of The Influencer "selling yourself" (is there any phrase more viscerally distasteful?) seems to be increasingly a core requirement to do basically anything in your life, so maybe self-depreciation is maladaptive? But maybe I don't want to adapt to something I hate anyway.

To me self deprecation is roundly a dud. It also only works (to the degree that it “works” at all) when you’re already in a position of power.

CaAL otm

Self-deprecation: putting yourself down

Self-depreciation: valuing yourself less and less every year

Agree with HP above.
I don't have a lot of examples that come to mind where it's a good thing to self-depreciate or lose your confidence. If that's the assumption, I don't agree that self-depreciation is the way to humility or honesty. You can express doubts without depreciating yourself.

look, it’s supposed to be funny. it’s supposed to lighten the mood… you all are talking about something else, like fishing for compliments for something.

Isn’t there a bit of grey area/overlap there, like when someone is like, oh I could never do that, it’s so easy for you…And then you spend time and energy reassuring them.

if it is done with honest self-reflection and light touch good humour then it's fine imo, shame the devil and tell the truth and all that. It doesn't have to be confidence shredding self-flagellation or overwrought to the point that other people find it awkward or disturbing. If someone is just fishing for praise and validation then it isn't self-deprecation - it's manipulation.

I am almost instinctively prone to self-deprecation, to the point that my ex once told me, "you need to stop saying such negative things about yourself." I don't believe in the magic powers of positive thinking or any of that, but there's certainly something to be said for being kinder to oneself, even when the negativity is lightweight/funny. I'll say this: when it comes to others, I'd much rather hang with the self-deprecating than the self-aggrandizing, who infuriate me.

in my experience, there's also a distinct american/"european" cultural divide when it comes to this. so maybe self-deprecation works better when it fits into a national culture that permits a certain kind of ironical negativity or something. in the states i think you're more likely to have negative reactions to it, or just have it fall flat.

budo, are you an American? speaking as one, I have never found that characterization true, but then again, I'm from New Jersey, which is pretty amenable to ironic negativity.

i am an american, yes, but from a deeply naive and sincere region known as the upper midwest

been thinking a bit about self-deprecation and how it does and doesn't relate to self-pity.

for me, self-deprecation arrived as a defense mechanism, from as early as i can remember, my weight and height being an issue for everyone else, and then later on, being a precocious piece of shit. in both cases, in school, i learned to tell the jokes about how small i was before the other people could make them, and with being smart, i learned not to raise my hand so often, to not express any happiness whenever i got something right, to feel deeply ashamed whenever i was the only one who knew something and there was silence in the classroom while the teacher waited for someone to give it a shot.

i only started to get over the self-deprecation habit a few years ago, and when i say "get over it" i mean "stop tearing myself down in my own mind". the people who actually made fun of me and the horrible adults who didn't know how to deal with a hyper creative kid are long gone, but their voices remained in my head (REMAIN in my head) as "the negative voice". it has taken a very long time, and it will always be a battle for the rest of my life, to hear those negative voices and to, with awareness and consciously, think "i hear the negative voice, and i don't believe it". it's very hard to pull off, especially when so much of the actual world is full of persistently negative voices (either negative toward other people or negative toward ourselves, self-deprecation). when i was younger and therapy-resistant i thought that i could never give up the negative voice because i have such a dislike toward shallow, reflexive positivity. but you don't have to replace the negative voice with a false "happy" voice. you can just acknowledge the negativity like an old friend that consistently has bad advice, and move on.

self-pity is different, but it so often flows from self-deprecation. but after seeing a few friends deal with (aka inflict on others) a persistent self-pity problem, i've realized that it comes from entitlement, and it's what happens when you start to believe the negative/self-deprecating thoughts, particularly a subset of them which relate to what you think you "deserve" for all your hard work

“oh I could never do that, it’s so easy for you”

this is just asshole behavior, though. Now thinking I don’t know what self-deprecation is, I thought it was a “humorous humility” thing that was supposed to show you’re human and flawed.

as opposed to main charactering yourself all the time

great post, z

i thought that i could never give up the negative voice because i have such a dislike toward shallow, reflexive positivity.

this was me for a long time too. ultimately i had a similar realization, along the lines of: the intensely negative internal monologue was *just as phony* as the people doing the chirpy positivity routine. the solution wasn't to ricochet into self-help crystal zone, it was just to realize that just because it felt "good" to immediately cling to the least charitable interpretation of a situation, it had very little to do with what was actually happening in reality.

having said that, i would say that my understanding of self-deprecation is probably closer to brimstead's

also, CaAL otm

self-deprecation in an "aw shucks little old me?" vein can be fine, like any shtick it's really about the who, the when and the how often

self-deprecation if people are using it to mean a semi-permanent, kneejerk running yourself down is a thing i work hard to try to escape from because it's literally very dangerous to my mental health and everything that follows on from that

i'm quite fond of the cultural form of self-deprecation in old Chinese and Japanese books (and presumably in the cultures themselves) where everybody always has to say some version of "even tho I am very untalented" just before they volunteer to do something awesome

slightly off topic, but I get sad when people say “I hate math” or “I’m bad at math”. I kinda believe that EVERYBODY can be good at math and would totally love it if we changed how it was taught!! Don’t ask me for more specifics…

I've made a deliberate effort to stop doing this. If someone gives you a complement, don't insult them by denigrating your efforts, just say "Thanks, I appreciate it." And I realized it's generally unappealing and not constructive...it usually comes off as false, fishing for reassurance, or just as low self-esteem. Rarely does it read as appropriately humble, although I do know a very small number of people who just have very high standards and an unsparing assessment of themselves in relation to those standards. It's still annoying to try and give them a complement...no one really thinks they're amazing (except assholes), but just try and appreciate the moment, y'know.

i used to "humorously" self-deprecate a lot, and that kind of colors my thinking on that

i got used to being put down a lot, so i started doing it as a self-defense mechanism... i'd call myself shit in the hopes that it wouldn't hurt me as much when people put me down

doesn't work.

one of the other things i did was i'd put myself down as a way of fishing for compliments. "no, you're not shit, you're great"

i used to argue with people when they would compliment me, i now feel that was a pretty rude thing to do so i just say "thank you" politely. if someone's saying nice things about me i accept that they're being sincere and respect that, even if i don't personally agree with them

i don't think i really _know_ self-aggrandizing people. people who talk about how fucking amazing they are and how great they are at everything. like sometimes i _think_ i'm great at everything but to me, when someone makes themselves an exception, whatever direction that's in, it's reflective of a low sense of self-worth. so i kind of don't differentiate between people saying they're better than everyone else and people saying they're worse than anyone else

the other thing i've consciously decided to do is that i don't parse humor. whenever somebody says something i take it as if they mean it. because if you don't mean it, why would you say it? it's one of my autistic traits, even though it _is_ a conscious choice.

for me it's also, like, there's a difference between saying bad things about _yourself_ and being critical of things you've said or done. even then, though, "that was stupid of me", if i just made a mistake, that's not necessarily stupid. the whole "no stupid questions" thing. and there _are_ stupid questions. a better way of saying "stupid" though would be "not even wrong", questions that fundamentally fail to understand what the issue at hand is, or are fundamentally disrespectful. "have you stopped beating your wife yet?", for instance, is a "stupid question".

hugboxing, i do think hugboxing is a real thing, where people just constantly give each other support and validation to make themselves feel better instead of dealing with actual problems. even then, though, i think it points to fragility... if someone can't take criticism without feeling totally worthless, that's, to me, "honest" criticism isn't the answer to that. like the first thing it's important for me to be "honest" about is my emotions and how i deal with things. would i say those things to others? and it used to be that i would, my ex-wife used to describe me as "brutally honest". it wasn't a compliment when she said it, and in that particular thing i think she was right. honesty is no excuse for not being, you know, respectful and kind. being respectful and kind to other people, that's very different from hugboxing, in my book.

the other thing about self-criticism is like does it lead to positive action. for instance, i could make a joke about how i never shut up about trans shit. well, ok. should i shut up about trans shit? i ask myself that question a lot, whenever i talk about trans shit, and my answer is generally "no, not really". sometimes the answer is "your trans shit is not relevant or useful to bring up here", and in those situations i don't bring it up. if i bring up trans stuff where it's _not_ relevant, where i'm talking and not listening, making a joke of it at my own expense doesn't negate my having behaved socially inappropriately. so even though i _feel_ like i never shut up about trans shit, bringing it up, lampshade hanging, i feel like that makes a social situation _more_, rather than _less_ awkward. like self-deprecation is inherently shifting the focus to me, even if it's only on a small level or for a moment.

slightly off topic, but I get sad when people say “I hate math” or “I’m bad at math”. I kinda believe that EVERYBODY can be good at math and would totally love it if we changed how it was taught!! Don’t ask me for more specifics…

― brimstead

well what does "good at math" mean? like i failed calc ii three times in a row and then i changed my major. some people might say, well, you made it as far as calc ii, that's not "bad at math", and i see it more as i failed a math class three times in a row. that's "bad at math" to me. i _could_ probably pass calc ii if i put my mind to it... a lot of circumstances have changed for me since then. i've also gotten older, and i have a harder time learning things. i got cognitive limitations. i mean i'm bad at running too. like in terms of muscle coordination, muscle coordination is really hard for me. when it comes to kinetic movement i'm developmentally disabled. i'm doing physical therapy and i find i have to work really hard to move my body in ways that are easier for a lot of people. since physical exercise is so hard for me, i do hate it. i figure if i can be bad at running, if i can hate running, other people can be bad at math.

aw it actually took me three tries to pass calc ii and I give a ton of credit to my study partners and just having a study group in that case. calc ii, at least where I was in California, does seem to be sort of the first big steep curve. Math got super cool and interesting once I got past that, and I can see all that grinding actually helped me mathematically model things and shit. Oh well that’s enough

let me just change EVERYBODY to just “a not insignificant amount of people”

left school early with zero achievements and considered myself preternally shite at math. Then later after learning basic stuff like decimals/fractions/transposing equations, because of pesky work qualification requirements - I needed to pass some exams. realised I was no better or worse than anyone really, but there is no way I could have passed any exams when school age. My ability to focus on tasks back then was not good to say the least.

I have met quite a few self-aggrandising people and they are the absolute worst, if i'm in a bad mood I feel like I want to extend that to confident people in general, how do you get through this world with a breezy confidence if you aren't a psychopath? Very sus, not to be trusted.

As for bad at maths, I managed to get 5% on my 1st year A-level maths exam, even after six months of fruitless private tuition I was unable to understand what differentiation and integration were. My mother and my son are both borderline-genius maths people, but it very much skipped a generation.

i got used to being put down a lot, so i started doing it as a self-defense mechanism

I think this is where I got this from. if I call myself a loser then I've beaten you to it

I can see how it's annoying if it's fishing for compliments and now I will probably worry that's how I'm being perceived if I do this

it is partly a humour thing too I guess, in some ways it's good to laugh at yourself a bit

one thing I worry about with this is I tend to exaggerate the ways in which I'm awful which is fine if it's with someone I know because they know it's a joke but there have been times when I've met someone and later on gone "oh shit I hope they don't think that was all true"

people have told me I put myself down a lot and maybe that's bad

(I am pretty good at math(s) though)

I think it’s pretty weird to say that feeling good about yourself (self confidence) is “sus”

That’s leaving very little room for not being miserable.

I'm not being completely serious there, had hoped that was clear, apparently not

just... that's the vibe I get from really confident people

I tried self deprecation even though i didn't actually feel that way at all but it turns out im brilliant at it

—Alan Partridge

Feeling good about yourself is great.
Having zero awkwardness when interacting with other people is bizarre and inexplicable to me.

xxp illustrative imo in both self deprecation & self aggrandisement there will be varying degrees of the ever-present element of irony so it’s never gonna be one thing

ito receiving compliments the one I get a lot from strangers is “I like your nails” & I always assume they’re just being nice because not that many dudes paint their nails, I respond with immediate & genuine “oh thank you!” but half the time follow up with a reflexive “don’t look too closely haha”

feel like everyone's talking about three different things as if it's the same ,but....

compliment-fishing isn't self-deprecation, to me, it's a manipulative meant to elicit a pre-determined response from someone by making them feel awkward if they don't respond in that way. I enjoy when it backfires because I hate the practice.

in terms of humor, when I was in better mental health, it was a healthy way for me to acknowledge my shortcomings in a humorous way, so that I could say "man, this part of me sucks, but now that I can laugh about it, maybe I can fix it".

I legitimately have zero confidence in most things except my job and judging the merits of heavy metal singers. I struggle with confidence with things I'm actually good at (singing/theatre), which is why I never really achieved my full potential in either, even though I'd also say I'm proud of my abilities in both nonetheless. this lack of confidence is, paradoxically, why I've had a tendency to overcompensate by being extremely hard-headed when arguing, because I'm fighting my own doubts and fears so it's a battle on two fronts. that's nobody else's problem, so not excusing bad behavior here.

the people I used to envy the most were people who could occupy a public space and come across as well-adjusted and comfortable in themselves and their abilities and shortcomings.

taking compliments, otoh, I have an easy time w/ because it was something nice somebody said and it's the polite thing to do. my feelings on the accuracy of the compliment don't matter.

I take cooking very seriously in a slow learning curve way and my neighbour once said I can always smell good food from your side, are you a chef or something? No I'm just a bumbling happy amateur with more enthusiasm than talent in the kitchen I said. Wasn't fishing for compliments and was just telling it like it is. Rejecting the compliment is fine if it isn't true. I don't want a compliment I haven't earned yet. Not even sure if I want it when it's earned either!

I don’t think not lying that you are a chef even counts as self deprecation tbh

I don't think it was a literal question, but you know, treat it like that if it makes you feel better about posting something like that!

i lied about my prowess on Super Mario Bros once, still feel bad about that

That does make me feel better thank you calzino

xp 1000 years of Kaizo levels for that transgression, Neanderthal

xp

your dull personality-free snark actually makes me feel worse tonight, whoever you think you are impressing, well gl to you.

i've become a bit more thoughtful about like - true i don't wanna bore everyone with my struggle, but also, i should be able to speak about it. i used to not speak about it as much but then it would come out in weird ways. so that's a balance - but also, recently it's become super important for me to challenge my neg. beliefs in the moment internally, which i don't know why but that was not really possible for so long. hoping that gains momentum.

genuinely wasn’t being snarky calz! Just that the actual yes/no question “are you a chef or something” is kinda leading most of us down the self deprecatory path

(& my 2nd post was just making a joke cause I wasn’t sure if you were actually mad)

no I'm not mad, just thought you were an arse about an honest post I made. Forget about it all> I'm a fucking idiot!

but not a bad cook tbf

the point I was making in the post is true. I'm very serious about cooking and have been for years. But always tell ppl I'm just a dabbler at best. The truth is I'm actually a good enough cook to work in a some kind of shit professional kitchen and have much scope for improvement. But never really admit I'm a decent cook these days.

I have zero doubt you are a much more than decent cook dude!

well, i'm definitely not. haha. but i've gotten good at salads! listen i'll take any compliments from myself i can get

xp
you can both go cook yourselves!

pfft maybe if I get myself delivered from hello fresh with very clear instructions

LOL

it blew my mind when I realised raita is just minced cucumber/garlic mixed into greek yoghurt, with a few spices and chopped coriander. The processed raita in jars is criminal. Sorry, let's get back to math

this sort of recipe is huge in Lebanese cuisine as well, it's not specifically referred to as raita but with ours you also include mint. served with all different kinds of things including meat, amazing.

some raita spooned onto chapati with some very hot curry/rice + fries and even a bit of salad. that's my food heaven.

Great post Z, brimstead otm.

Ironic self-deprecation only works if counterbalanced with a touch of ironi. Self-aggrandisement imo. Too much of either and they can't both start to smell like the real (bad) thing. Also too much of either and the bit can get very old very quickly. They're like salt and pepper: a nice garnish on a life, but a bad basis for a personality/meal/are we still talking about cooking?

xp consider this a raita reply

Case closed, now onto the more interesting question. Compliments: classic or dud?

Classic when given in the form of an "otm" or "good posting". Dud, any other way

don't love em

otm is pretty much all I can handle

Great posting

😂😂

Case closed, now onto the more interesting question. Compliments: classic or dud?

Classic when given in the form of an "otm" or "good posting". Dud, any other way

― H.P

my experience is that this is a really gendered thing

when i was presenting as a cis man the feeling i got was that compliments were implicitly an expression of sexual desire. one of my biggest frustrations in the Before Time was not being able to tell a woman "wow, that's a really pretty dress", that if i did that it'd be taken as me trying to get into her pants, when really i just thought it was a pretty dress that looked good on her. i guess that puts me in the "classic" camp. if i think of one of the primary benefits of my gender transition being "oh i get to compliment women platonically".

thinking about it maybe that's why, in my experience at least, men tend to avoid complimenting each other. instead you get this constant trash-talking, guys constantly putting each other down... as jokes, to build camraderie. the way guys build camraderie is by insulting each other. i guess i can see the appeal. it's just not my style.

that said it's not like the way women do things is "clearly superior" or anything like that. we do sometimes weaponize compliments against each other. guys will sometimes use insults as compliments, and women will sometimes use compliments as insults. there's also definitely an element of self-deprecation. i remember seeing this old amy schumer sketch where women respond to being complimented on their appearance by violently denouncing any concept that they might be anything other than repulsive. i thought it was a really funny sketch. it was kind of like the "four yorkshiremen sketch", but i found it more personally relatable than that sketch.

the thing is that as a woman, to the extent that i'm perceived at all (speaking as a middle-aged woman, sometimes other people don't perceive my existence), i'm judged _strongly_ based on my appearance, on how attractive i look. a huge part of my "male privilege" was that i could dress however i wanted and nobody cared. well, "however i wanted" within the fairly strict guidelines of "socially acceptable men's clothing".

sometimes i put a lot of work into trying to look attractive. that's often seen, particularly by men, as being vain or "fake". i disagree _strongly_ with this assessment. i think putting down people for putting effort into looking attractive is a pretty fucked value. anyway, i am often judged by my appearance, often in ways that are pretty unfair. i'm middle-aged and fat - in some people's minds (particularly those of men holding fish on dating sites), that alone makes me _extremely unattractive_.

when i put a lot of work into my appearance, being complimented for that is valuable to me. not only have i done a lot of work, i've exposed myself to a lot of negative judgements, spoken and unspoken. being affirmed is important. that's how i'd frame it, honestly. not compliments. affirmation.

it's kind of funny, actually. when we're out in public, my girlfriend does get more compliments than i do. she's an extremely large trans woman who doesn't have an abundance of passing privilege. the compliments aren't _insincere_ at all. she does look attractive! her outfits are great! there's just, i think, a greater recognition of the negative judgements trans women get than there is of the negative judgements cis women get. it's seen as important and valuable to affirm trans women - which it is! - in situations where affirming cis women isn't always seen as important.

anyway. compliments! affirmation! love them!

well. one last thing. men giving compliments being taken as a sign of attraction... well, that's useful when one wishes to express one's attraction to another person. for lesbians, expressions of attraction do tend to be brushed off platonically. i like the way Fruity Nessa puts it:

"Being a lesbian is hard because when I hit on women they just think I'm being friendly. I could be as forward as "Your ass is amazing. Sit on my face" and she'd be like "Thanks girl! It's the jeans! 70% off at American Eagle if you're interested"

in general though i'm very pro-compliments.