Smacking people in their face after they deliver monumental feats of music - Beck vs Beyonce

fucking ban

i have zero emotional or political investment in either of these albums

who is beck

i have zero emotional or political investment in either of these albums

― example (crüt), Tuesday, February 10, 2015 11:15 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Black Messiah

neither but beck more than beyonce sorry ilx i know about yr beyonce obsession

I mean to be fair I haven't listened to either of them. I know the singles on the Beyonce album, that's about it.

Haven't listened to either. Would probably be able to make it all the way through a whole song from the Beyoncé album before the Beck album, but why take the chance?

You could be my black L. Ron tonight...

Everybody challop tonight

Beyonce album is obv >>>

not liking beyonce is not a "challenging opinion"

I've merged the highlights from each album into an itunes playlist titled Beckyonce.

That's so Beckyonce!

The important thing here is the other three albums losing

not liking beyonce is not a "challenging opinion"

― example (crüt), Tuesday, February 10, 2015 10:33 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no but thinking i care in a thread w/ her name in the title is

http://static.becomegorgeous.com/gallery/pictures/beyoncecurlyhairstyle2010coachella.jpghttp://i.usatoday.net/life/_photos/2009/02/24/beckx.jpg

TrollAdvance

This is so dumb that it almost makes me want to side with Beyonce, but, ultimately, the only way to win is not to play
http://mic.com/articles/110180/one-quote-sums-up-why-beck-is-the-most-humble-man-in-music

"I couldn't have done it without xenu"

The whole white guy with "better manners" angle on this is just nauseating, though unsurprising. Music industry just churns this sort of thing out. There is something pretty chuckleworthy about Beck, the scientologist loon, coming out of this as the just-a-humble-songwriter guy.

this was a fun thread
Let's write Beck lyrics together

being a scientologist is a bad look i guess but i've met plenty of friendly cultists in my lifetime, can't really front

get a brain morans http://bzfd.it/1y0VSx6

"sheer brilliance"

By those criteria, there are like a bazillion shitty indie bands that deserve a grammy more than Beyonce

It's more important to play a lot of different instruments than to be one of the best pop vocal performers in the world, obv. Also a white guy.

"deej loaf (D-40)
Posted: February 10, 2015 at 10:42:13 AM
not liking beyonce is not a "challenging opinion"

― example (crüt), Tuesday, February 10, 2015 10:33 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no but thinking i care in a thread w/ her name in the title is"

Haha you are such a dick

Jacqui Richards · Follow · Business Services Assistant at Mace Group
This is ridiculous, it's like comparing chalk and cheese. Both phenomenal in their own field.
Reply · Like · 495 · Follow Post · 20 hours ago

It's true though, chalk is outstanding as a writing implement, and cheese is unparalleled as a food

Chalk was fine when I was at school in the 90s but writing implements have moved on since then and who the fuck uses chalk these days anyway? Cheese remains unparalleled as a food.

Chalk can be used to write on many surfaces on which most other writing tools will not leave a mark though. You can't really say that cheese is as multi-talented.

Re: Scientology - but look at Isaac Hayes' fantastic output!!

I'm not sure if Scientology makes people suck.

when did hayes become a scientologist though? think it was well past his peak period.

Wasn't Beck born into it? I'm not saying it "makes people suck" I'm just saying people are projecting an image onto Beck that really does not fit.

What is Beyoncé's "Fume"?

Beck is culturally a scientologist

Beck is genetically a scientologist

he is very european about it

ugh so many muso friends on Facebook taking a "Beck makes REAL RECORDS" stance and doing lyric comparisons etc :(

I do think "Beck wrote 'Fume'" is an effective rebuttal to all of that nonsense

"yoooooooo soy un grammy winner" is a great lyric

it is kind of interesting how people think records get made -- as though beck just strapped on the ol' guitar and hit record. i mean, there was plenty of ***technology*** used on morning phase.

if mordy had not opened my eyes, I would have posted an e-meter here

I like Beck, Beyonce, and Kanye. I feel very little about the Grammys.

http://www.pics4world.com/vb/imgcache/2/19919showing.PNG

Kanye is the New Sincerity. People who thought he was clowning himself don't understand him at all.

http://bit.ly/1uvuWdL

thurston

man when did Michael Cera find the time to learn to play 14 instruments! that's cray

i can't front, cera's got some jawns

yeah his record was pretty good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdzY49xlvdY

oh i see that was sort of already posted

Beck was looking a little doddering and old, I could relate. Was cute when he kept asking Kanye to come back. Also his tight pants and pointy boots made me think how every musician after a certain age turns into their own personal version of Ron Wood.

I like Beck, Beyonce, and Kanye. I feel very little about the Grammys.

― Treeship, Tuesday, February 10, 2015 12:00 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm with Beyonce on this one, but saying you're shocked at the number of FB posters who reveal "rockist" biases is like saying you're shocked at the number of evangelical Christians there.

Prej. against Beyonce not just about race and r & b - it's about gender and singers.

nytimes commenters hate kanye

also i had to endure some anti-kanye rhetoric in a class about "using music in the classroom". he was held out as an example of "corporate, non-conscious" hip hop and criticized for wearing the confederate flag

I wonder if there's anyone at all just doesnt really like beyonce

i like beck. awesome up through sea change, pretty okay since. know beyonce much less well, just the hits, really. some are great, others don't do much for me. anyway, this poll is dumb. would vote in a poll of miniature ron woods though.

I wonder if there's anyone at all just doesnt really like beyonce

― local eire man (darraghmac),

I dont like the beyonce or beck that I have heard

"personal version of Ron Wood"

Dying over here

I wonder if there's anyone at all just doesnt really like beyonce

In the US, certainly - there's still this thing about women who sing and dance and look pretty. Doesn't matter how good a singer you are, it still isn't "work". As opposed to those who heroically labor over their drum kits or guitars.

That Thurston Moore-Beck clip above is as time-capsule as it gets. Enjoy the moment, guys; things change.

as in, people are young and then they get older?

have been told personally by no less than 400 people who haven't listened to beck since 2002 that beck plays 14 instruments

(xpost) Basically. When you're in that moment--especially Beck; Moore was older, and he was kind of from a different moment already--I don't think you can conceive of things ever being different than they are.

have been told personally by no less than 400 people who haven't listened to beck since 2002 that beck plays 14 instruments

― qualx, Tuesday, February 10, 2015 8:45 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

In the US, certainly - there's still this thing about women who sing and dance and look pretty. Doesn't matter how good a singer you are, it still isn't "work". As opposed to those who heroically labor over their drum kits or guitars.

― SCOTTISH PEOPLE ONLY (I M Losted), Tuesday, February 10, 2015 9:39 PM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

<3 kanye as i do, i don't really think this was the reason beyonce lost to beck. the reason beyonce lost is that the grammy for best album goes to the album the judges arbitrarily liked better because there are no fixed criteria and the idea of a "best album" award is kind of dumb anyway

If this gon be that kinda thread ima stick my dick in the mashed potatoes

that sounds like it would feel cool. go for it

That beck 14 instruments meme is just a variation on that shitty Queen vs Beyonce meme.

Only unlike Queen Beck is really fucking terribl e

"I wonder if there's anyone at all just doesnt really like beyonce"

In the US, certainly - there's still this thing about women who sing and dance and look pretty. Doesn't matter how good a singer you are, it still isn't "work". As opposed to those who heroically labor over their drum kits or guitars.

― SCOTTISH PEOPLE ONLY (I M Losted), Tuesday, February 10, 2015 6:39 PM (1 hour ago)

true, true. also, there are probably a bunch of people who just don't really like beyonce.

I don't love either of these albums, but the high points on the Beyoncé album exceed the high points on the Beck album, IMO. Also, Beyoncé was more "relevant" in 2014.

get a brain morans http://bzfd.it/1y0VSx6

― gr8080, Tuesday, February 10, 2015 9:10 AM Bookmark

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9eIo0ZCIAEpKaH.png

I wonder if there's anyone at all just doesnt really like beyonce

for real, it's almost as if this was inconceivable judging from the reactions

it is inconceivable

Wallace Shawn!

The assumption that people could only prefer Beck to Beyonce for reasons of racism or rockism is just one of many depressing things about this incident. (fwiw I much prefer the Beyonce album)

Also I do think this whole thing is a shame, after many years the Grammy for best album didn't go to the actual best album that was released that year, smdh

Eric Harvey ‏@marathonpacks Feb 9

Reactions to the irrelevant/hyper-relevant Grammys are basically: "The food's no good there anymore." "I know, and such small portions!"

"I wonder if there's anyone at all just doesnt really like beyonce"

i dont really like *her*, though i like various singles and thought the latest album was good for her. dont really like morning phase either, though i think its better than sea change. do find both sides of this irritating. the idea that everyone must love beyonce is just weird (i must have missed when she became that kind of artist), not just as it seems to want to impose a sort of blanket opinion on everyone, but also as it seems a bit insincere, a way to show that hey, 'i like mainstream pop/R&B too!'. i think she should have won though, shes more relevant to pop culture right now, was more ambitious and innovative, just means more to more people than beck does in 2015, and her album has more standout songs, but i can see that morning phase is sort of the award for someone in the autumn phase of their career, and people who were indie kids in the 80s/90s now have the power to make their heroes the new establishment winners (plus it takes a lot of references from classic singer songwriter stuff which no doubt appeals to old voters). but yknow, beyonce's won about 20 grammies already, so while she deserves it this time, its not like you can claim shes historically been overlooked.

its basically about beck being seen as making rock art while beyonce is seen as making mere commercial pop.

Was totally with you in the first post, but then you lost me in the second one above.

Surely there's tons of people who would argue that Bey is making R&B art as well?

It could be lots of reasons. We don't know. I think the Beyonce album is every bit as substantial a work of art as Lauryn's or Outkast's.

Btw Beyonce is just outside the Top 10 of most Grammy wins ever, one behind Jay-Z and Kanye, two behind Stevie Wonder and U2. She does OK.

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-artists-with-the-most-grammy-wins-ever--x1YkwRwm2x

The assumption that people could only prefer Beck to Beyonce for reasons of racism or rockism is just one of many depressing things about this incident. (fwiw I much prefer the Beyonce album)

― Minaj moron (Re-Make/Re-Model), Wednesday, February 11, 2015 9:50 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't necessarily assume this but i haven't actually read any criticism of beyoncé (the album) that isn't rooted in racism or rockism (though there's a lot of "omg you're not even allowed to criticise her" non-specific waffle to go round as well) ("you're not even allowed to say _____ or _____" where have i heard that before)

i would def say that, esp on the latest album, and youd imagine she would get rewarded for making that 'progression' (and yes i do think its a progression), but to most people, theyd just say shes making pop/R&B music. whereas beck, the guy who writes stuff like 'In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey' is of course the superior artist with purity of expression, the real musician, etc etc. hes not just a song and dance woman.

just remembered an old bono/edge quote where they were talking about prince and SOTT and saying something like he should have won, or at least, made something good as he proved he was more than just a song and dance man.

I don't like Beyonce -- her (electronically assisted?) vibrato is just over-the-top on everything, and Beck has been very, very boring for years. Boring is worse than annoying, also Beyonce wins the battle of "their only good songs" (Crazy in Love vs. Loser) by a country mile.

The public reaction here reminds me of a battle between Cheetos and McDonald's burgers, where the burger lovers scream "you can't handle REAL FOOD" and the Cheetos fans holler "you scumbags hate vegetarians!!!!"

those are def not their only good songs! (i hate crazy in love... bug a boo is actually a lot better)

I put it in quotes 'cause I understand that's not an objective truth.

one day 6music listeners will inherit the earth.

xp I find all the rhetoric around this depressing for different reasons Lex. It's the fucking Grammys. Getting it wrong is what they do.

yeah the grammys are just designed to be conservative - who really cares that much? im sure beyonce will clean up at the VMAs. and im sure when she makes an album of jazz standards/raw blues anthems with t bone burnett/whatever the grammys will award her justly.

xp I find all the rhetoric around this depressing for different reasons Lex. It's the fucking Grammys. Getting it wrong is what they do.

― Minaj moron (Re-Make/Re-Model), Wednesday, February 11, 2015 11:30 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah this depresses me too. conservative, meaningless institution continues to be conservative and meaningless but people who know this can't take that to its logical conclusion. arguing over whether beck or beyoncé deserves a grammy needs you to take as read that a grammy is a meaningful and objective measure of artistic quality.

beyoncé feels bigger than any grammy right now and i don't see why kanye can't realise that...all he's done is prop up the legitimacy of the grammys, if he really wanted to make a stand against the very real social biases it perpetuates he'd have called for their destruction

this is also true of your mercurys, brit awards, vmas etc etc etc, obviously

when did they last matter? as a kid they felt much more vital and massive in a way they dont now, though that might just be cos i was a kid. or maybe the 80s was when they last really seemed to matter or carry weight. like, it was a big deal when someone like MJ won all those awards for thriller (even to a 3/4 year old like me). not sure it matters that much now. though maybe thats just a general malaise with mainstream gatekeepers (though maybe to people that buy less than 5 albums a year, it does count)

You know when your partner works with someone and it's really important to them that they maintain that relationship but you can't stand them, and you just have to grin and bear all these obligatory social events even though they're all "hey, I fucking love you guys"? Bascially this is how I imagine Beyonce thinks of Kanye.

It's still the only reason I can think of for not cutting that swagu verse.

"beyoncé feels bigger than any grammy right now and i don't see why kanye can't realise that...all he's done is prop up the legitimacy of the grammys, if he really wanted to make a stand against the very real social biases it perpetuates he'd have called for their destruction"

lots of rappers boycott the grammys. but thats just cos they think the grammys dont respect rappers/hip hop. i dont think its because they want to see them die. they want to buy in. kanyes no different. and hes kinda realistic. he knows they still matter on a certain level of acknowledgement/validation if nothing else.

The problem with the grammys isn't the grammys per se, it's the idea of having an institution that compares a year's worth of albums with vastly different artistic goals and declares one "the best." Let's just have magazine lists; at least then it's clear the "winners" represent a specific editorial perspective

"the problem with the grammys" would make a fine board description, except no one would want to read that board

Except Kanye.

kanye wants to be like MJ winning everything for thriller. its not a surprise he has a large interest in who wins.

Grammys used to be like your "godfather" throwing a party and everyone shows up but it's, like, your godfather and everyone has to keep him happy.

People watch it differently now because there's a sense that the "godfather" died. They expect something more contemporary. The same with the Oscars. However the Grammys just look directionless or schizoid, what with AC/DC opening the show.

i'm basically pro-kanye's approach to awards, where dude just thinks the most deserving person should always win and the only real egomania comes from thinking he always knows who deserves to win and that it's his place to speak up for those people (incl himself when he feels necessary).

There's a huge basic difference between the Grammys and the Oscars/Emmys/Tonys, which is that there are thousands upon thousands of albums that are released in any given year (compared to hundreds of movies, dozens of TV shows, and even fewer Broadway productions), and so attention is necessarily divided. Faced with such a wide swath of music to consider and unable to discern much consensus among critics/tastemakers (no "precursor awards," e.g.), the Grammys default to conservative, mainstream tastes. I think it's always been like this to a certain extent -- lots of easy-listening/adult-contemporary winners in years that produced landmark rock/hip-hop albums -- but the easier it is to access and experience that enormous range of new music probably exacerbates the sense that what the Grammys favor comes from a much-narrower field.

Morrissey has made a quite good speech about it.

(You find it!)

Jeez, this thread...

You know it is possible to not like Beyonce, for simply she's not some people's cup of tea.

Beck made a great album, it was deserving to win as much as Beyonce's or any of the other nominees and vice versa. I seriously doubt Beyonce who already has 20-something statues is losing any sleep over this, she certainly doesn't need Kanye white-knighting on her behalf and making a fool of himself on national television.

It's amazing how the Grammys do and don't matter, and how quick people are to declare their "irrelevance" when their favorites don't win.

why everyone groaning about the thread, yet putting in their $.02?

if only we could get a certain somebody's $.02 here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGxe83lXgJg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R5W6FDM5P0

seeing how most grammys are basically awarding most units sold, I think the voters feel obligated to go against the grain in efforts to fight the man or whatever. who are the voters anyway? various stakeholders and ceos?

i saw an article about the whole shirley manson open letter to kanye posing it as a "gen x vs. millenials" showdown i kinda feel like people don't know kanye will turn 38 in a few months

if only we could get a certain somebody's $.02 here

Lol I think we have

I just figured this was gonna happen cos Beck has spent the past few years being Mr. Music releasing that album of sheet music and doing all those collaborative cover tunes/video series documenting him as a producer (hello Best Engineered nom) plus he did the album with Charlotte Gainsbourg so there's that.

xp

"millennial" is a feeling not an age group. kanye is a millennial.

eh i dunno i feel like his reference points for hip hop are v gen x

also it's not really a feeling it is an age group. kanye would be right on the cusp, born in 77 but i'd still say gen x

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000559584730/a485e9b35a5a67fef58f7314ee8ac258.jpeg

'Generations' mean about as much as horoscopes imo but 1977 is not even really on the cusp.

Whoever said earlier in this thread (or maybe in another one) that Kanye is effectively propping up the Grammys as an institution is otm. I can only imagine that the Grammy folks are stoked that so many people are talking about their show days later.

The more people talk about Kanye, the less they talk about this: http://imgur.com/gallery/Ith2N

lol @ anyone who thinks that any one artist, or even small group of artists, could "prop" up the Grammys

if the Grammys have been pretty much ignoring black music forever, save a few exceptions of course, do you guys really think the Grammys need any specific artists to remain "relevant"? no

I'd respect Kanye more if he'd come straight out and talked about race instead of dressing it up as something as vague and subjective as "artistry". Any argument about who out of Beck and Beyonce has more "artistry" is bound to be dumb.

But maybe Kanye didn't want to mention race because he's embarrassed that he's been virtually silent about certain recent events that matter more than Beyonce's 21st Grammy. smdh at pieces that suggest he's bravely speaking out against the racist music industry.

"if the Grammys have been pretty much ignoring black music forever"

They haven't.

obviously the grammys are an institution that's been around forever and aren't going away. didn't mean to say they were on their last legs until Kanye saved them. Just that, for something that's roundly acknowledged as total bullshit, and they continue to be widely discussed on social media 3 days later.

no black artist won album of the year until 74 when stevie wonder did (he ended up winning 3 of 4 years which is kinda cool)

since then, 42 AOTY awarded, 12 have been african americans so 28 percent

obv Beyonce will never reach Beck's level of artistry until she releases an album only in the form of sheet music so that NPR listeners can record their own Magnetic Fields-y versions of the songs.

I wish Kanye West would be more outspoken about stuff too, but now that he's married to a Kardashian I don't think that's likely to happen.

Isn't Shirley Manson too old to be Gen X?

I mean I know Garbage is defo a Gen X band though... right?

now that he's married to one of those reclusive and privacy obsessed Kardashians

she's 5 years younger than Douglas Coupland xp

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2015/02/11/kanye-west-bob-dylan-and-why-one-mans-trash-talk-is-another-mans-treasure/

omg someone posted this in earnest on FB

i wouldn't sweat it Zach Wylde

http://s12.postimg.org/uykdtklr1/10980767_10205113954081196_9137346752008547588_n.jpg

That Shirley Manson post is garbage

I like that Chris Richards piece, although this is a bit too kind. It wasn't a broadside, it was a blurt — one he never followed up and later walked back from. I give him huge credit for it but that was 10 years ago. "Don’t forget that West’s televised broadside against President George W. Bush’s mishandling of the fallout from Hurricane Katrina back in 2005 still stands as one of the most far-reaching gestures of social protest we’ve ever seen from a pop star."

what is zakk wylde positing is going to happen exactly, having trouble figuring it out

http://i58.tinypic.com/2a6nsya.png

He's no Loser, baby! How Beck mastered multiple instruments, shaped a generation of music and still managed to be a gent (take note, Kanye)
By GEORGE STARK FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

:(

Shouldn't the multiple instruments thing mean Prince wins every Grammy?

Grammys would be vastly more entertaining if the sole criterion was who can play the most instruments. Simultaneously.

That and gentlemanliness.

RIP Rahsaan Roland Kirk :(

lol

I'mma let you finish, Jordan, but Hazel Adkins...

Well now I've read that Seacrest transcript and I love Kanye again. He's a funny man.

The funniest thing about the whole social media freak-out over this is that Beck was totally into it. We was literally saying, "Wait! Come back!". He must have been a punk at an awards show back in the Mellow Gold days too. He's a guy who used to go onstage with a leafblower, and he grew up on the knee of a Situationist who managed The Screamers. I think he'll be able to handle being the target of somebody pulling a pointed prank at the Granny Awards.

Also amazed to see friends of mine I know for a fact have not given a fuck about Beck since Sea Change getting all huffy about this.

yeah even after Beck is like the person who's least upset about it

he knows good showbiz when he sees it - i'm sure "dismal sunshine" or whatever it's called got a little bump off this

Shouldn't the multiple instruments thing mean Prince wins every Grammy?

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/29/2972/J56QD00Z/posters/roy-wood-with-all-the-instruments-he-played-on-his-new-album-boulders-august-1973.jpg

Where did this 'Beck plays 12 instruments' thing come from? What are the 12?

let's see, two turntables ... microphone ... what are the other 10

#dadjoke

3. Leafblower

4. plays it cool

5. E-Meter

indifferent to dislike Beck, but this annoys me about Kanye's comments:
"I got my wife, my daughter and my clothing line".

"a wife, a daughter, a clothing line, Kanye West!" is my favorite palindrome, though

Priorities, man, Priorities.

obviously the grammys are an institution that's been around forever and aren't going away.

lol "forever" the Grammys are 14 years younger than my father

Robert Plant and Allison Krauss won Album of the Year for a record of fucking cover songs you guys

so did herbie hancock! both pretty good records though

like the grammys or circuit city, your dynasty shall last forever, and your descendants shall be as numerous as the stars in the sky

tbf I've never seen Beck play anything (lol @ 12 instruments) as well as Beyonce sings

you are using the wrong sense, though

Beck was awesome on his Futurama episode, though, I'll give him that.

I hear with my eyes

beautiful Cole

If only social media had been around for tony Bennett MTV unplugged winning

what's wrong with cover songs???

OTM. Like both of those albums.

people who cover songs need other people to write their songs for them

I kind of wonder if "12 instruments" includes e.g. "electric guitar", "acoustic guitar", and "bass guitar" as separate instruments + "piano" and "electronic keyboard" + "marimba" and "glockenspiel" and "vibraphone" etc.

i did mean forever literally sorry for my sloppy usage guys.

tbf Phil did not take it literally. he took forever to mean "older than Phil's dad"

the Grammys are younger than my dad but older than my mom, what does that mean wrt eternity

you misunderstand. Phil's dad is kept in a cage at NIST.

yr mom is forever younger than yr dad.

but they are both stardust

You guys all missed the point, which is that despite a 14-year head start and not being a musician, my dad has never won Album of the Year.

how many glockenspiel variants has he become acceptable at

before you can call him a man

once my friend [redacted]'s mother was in an elevator in new york city and beck walked into it. she asked him if he was "the guy from that band beck" and beck replied "i am beck!" at a volume very close to a shout

kinda seems like the normal thing to say in that situation

i would have lowered my sunglasses, sustained eye contact for a good span of time -- a full second, or until it bordered on uncomfortable -- and then winked

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10458160_982305715128137_5754884874581645663_n.jpg?oh=ad825b02afe189cedf7756f74f38c678&oe=55932F96&__gda__=1431869180_9298fede35e13f9df31d26bc3ce8ee21

all true

If only social media had been around for tony Bennett MTV unplugged winning

hahaha

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

shocking results

yep, people actually votrd!

voted white male, assumed he's straight

Stereogum Worst->Best list is almost exactly backwards.

Guero is better than Midnight Vultures in some universe I don't want to live in.