IF IT'S NOT LOVE THEN IT'S THE POLL THAT WILL BRING US TOGETHER - ILM Artist Poll #72 - THE SMITHS - RESULTS THREAD

80 ballots received (53 album ballots)
71 tracks and 11 albums voted for

Albums!

http://i.imgur.com/j5Qpq4T.jpg

5. STRANGEWAYS, HERE WE COME (studio album, 1987)
1109 points | 35 votes | 4 first place votes

thats a good start

getting the mistakes out the way early, good planning tbh

also...11 albums voted for a band with this little output is p hilarious

Can a mod fix that link?

80 ballots that's a lot! should be great this.

80 ballots is crazy. is that the highest ever?

my dad used to play Strangeways a lot when I was a very young child and I used to love the "UUUUURRRRRRRGGGHHHHHRRRush and a push and the land" bit from the opening track, but I had no idea who they were, then I decided to check out the Smiths as a teenager after reading about them and was delighted to realise that they were the same band

the "ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA" refrain from 'Sweet and Tender Hooligan' is the other part of their oeuvre that I remember really appealing to me as a small child

The Smiths released 4 albums.

bowie got 80 ballots too.

I voted for them in reverse chronological order. I pull out Sound of the Smiths 2CD now if I want a compilation, but my copy of Louder Than Bombs has been played more than any other Smiths release.

i wonder if some version of the Erica Garner ad ran throughout the South, for starters (i imagine it must've?)

oops, sorry

"London" would've been high on my tracks ballot

QiD #1 album i think

4. THE SMITHS (studio album, 1984)
1228 points | 39 votes | 4 first place votes

http://i.imgur.com/KRsdwCP.jpg

^^ best album

This is going really well.

THE SMITHS is #4, not LOUDER THAN BOMBS

^^^ worst album

I don't want to derail on what's an album and what's a compilation, but c'mon people, this is a compilation, not an album.

I kind of like its wiry, bristling quality, but all its songs (except "This Charming Man") are better served by the Hatful versions.

At one point The Smiths was my favourite album of theirs but I've cooled on it a lot in the last few years. I find his vocals on Miserable Lie a little grating, The Hand That Rocks The Cradle doesn't really go anywhere and What Difference Does It Makes is one of the few of their bigger hits that I don't really need to hear again (along with How Soon Is Now).

Look, if no-one mentions the image it can be fixed behind the scenes and posterity will know no better.

Too low! Louder Than Bombs is their best.

How would I do that? xp

With the aid of a kindly mod?

If any kindly mod could change the url to one I give them that would be great

had a feeling both HOH and LTB would place in a top 5 at the expense of the one of the studio albums. pleased that that is not the case.

The debut was my favourite for a while too, I had it at #2 in the end though.

It would have been 81 ballots if I hadn't been too preoccupied to submit a ballot. Damn, we could have broken the record!

had a feeling both HOH and LTB would place in a top 5 at the expense of the one of the studio albums. pleased that that is not the case.

― Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:26 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Isn't this premature pleasure? There are three spots left and I thought fandom was generally down on Meat Is Murder as an album

fandom was generally down on Meat Is Murder as an album

now that is crazytalk. Every song on MiM is a gem, save for the title track, and that one at least has cow mooing sounds.

When I was listening back over their discography the other week, I found myself pleasantly surprised by Meat Is Murder. At one point it was my least favourite of all their studio albums, but now I'd probably rank it second behind The Queen Is Dead.

Same. I was disappointed by it at the time, but I dug it all when relistening last week (except the title track).

Even stranger for me, is that when I listened to 'How Soon Is Now' with fresh ears, it regained a power for me that I thought was lost years ago. I honest-to-god thought at this stage that I was thoroughly fucking sick of it - at least, that's how I felt about it for years. But no, turns out I'm not. Amazing how some tracks can regain a potency after a lengthy break from hearing them.

Dan i haven't encountered that myself, i hope that's not the case. it's my #1.

Ha, me too. The first Smiths I ever heard was Hatful of Hollow. Each song was "this is good...THIS is good..." and then, with "How Soon Is Now," "THIS IS AMAZING." Listening again recently, yep, same feeling.

xp

When I was listening back over their discography the other week, I found myself pleasantly surprised by Meat Is Murder.

yeah i had the same experience. everything kinda rules except the title track. i do have a lot of affection for the s/t though, despite some kinda bad songs and vocals and production. strangeways is still weirdly my favorite

I didn't come to MIM until a few years ago because in my youth it sounded like dog shit on cassette and couldn't get past a few of the vocals. I've now had the bass line of "Barbarism Begins at Home" stuck in my head for 72 hours.

I saw a couple shows by a Smiths covers band eons ago (the Nguyens) and was always disappointed that Barbarism was the one song they confessed they couldn't do

(also to-date that is the only Smiths bassline I've ever learned how to play lol)

I've said it before, but I think the debut album is a mostly wonderful collection of material, although far from their best produced and recorded. Also, a bit baffling to put 'Reel Around The Fountain' as an opening track, although at the same time it's difficult to figure out where else it could have gone without making the album feel ballad-heavy. It just strikes me as an odd way to open a debut album, really.

Yeah, 'Barbarism Begins At Home' is fantastic, one of Rourke's best basslines easily. There's footage of them playing it at a gig in Germany on Youtube and when the track breaks down to just the bass and drums, Marr takes off his guitar and begins to shimmy around onstage, dancing with Moz.

As a slab of white funk I'd take it over anything and everything released by Level fuckin' 42, without a doubt.

bassline has kind of a Bernie Edwards' feel to it, a bit of that disco stair-stepping 8th note thing

altho now that I think about it none of it is 8th notes is it? lol

That Barbarism live video and the The The vs. The World live video of Giant, also featuring Johnny Marr dancing across the stage, are probably my two favorite Marr moments.

Also, a bit baffling to put 'Reel Around The Fountain' as an opening track

nah this is my favorite thing about it

There's footage of them playing it at a gig in Germany on Youtube and when the track breaks down to just the bass and drums, Marr takes off his guitar and begins to shimmy around onstage, dancing with Moz.

at 26:07
https://youtu.be/2Y7YnL9SPjs

You guys/gals all failed if Reel Around the Fountain doesn't take this thing.

3. LOUDER THAN BOMBS (compilation album, 1987)
1398 points | 40 votes | 11 first place votes

I like 'Reel Around The Fountain', but it's my least favourite opening track of theirs. You'd think that they'd open their debut with something with a little more power to it, like they would later do with 'The Headmaster Ritual' and particularly 'The Queen Is Dead' ...

one thing I love about HOH is the position of "Reel Around The Fountain"

I think that there's something discombobulating about making 'Reel Around The Fountain' the opening track of the album, but in a good way. the debut was the second Smiths record I listened to after Louder Than Bombs and I remember being surprised by how eerie and strange the whole album was compared with the later stuff. it makes less of an impact for me on HOH, sandwiched between two other ballads

xp They can do power from time to time but it's not what they are about. RATF is a way more appropriate opening track for them.

Oh yeah, I agree that the debut is quite an eerie record in places: 'Suffer Little Children', 'The Hand That Rocks The Cradle'... 'Pretty Girls Make Graves', even. I'd say a song like 'Suffer Little Children' in particular is 100% successful in providing an eerie vibe, in a way that 'Meat Is Murder' isn't.

I think that there's something discombobulating about making 'Reel Around The Fountain' the opening track of the album, but in a good way. the debut was the second Smiths record I listened to after Louder Than Bombs and I remember being surprised by how eerie and strange the whole album was compared with the later stuff. it makes less of an impact for me on HOH, sandwiched between two other ballads

I disagree strongly; HOH was the first place I heard "Reel Around The Fountain" and it was an instant standout for me, to the point where I immediately played it again once it finished. (Also, I already knew "Back to the Old House" and "Please, Please...", the latter being the first Smiths song I ever heard thanks to the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, so I knew what to expect from them.)

I voted for The World Won't Listen over Louder Than Bombs - LTB was a handy way to collect (nearly) all the non-album stuff but I think the sequencing lets it down a bit, it's never really felt like an album listen to me.

I think that there's something discombobulating about making 'Reel Around The Fountain' the opening track of the album, but in a good way

yeah, the album goes into weird and unsettling places for a debut that's also packed with singles, and this sort of sets it off in an appropriately uneasy but assured way, portending something awful but being excessively pretty about it. for years "reel" was my favorite smiths song, which i think owes a lot to how it announces that record, and also announces the smiths as a band. (at least for me. the s/t was the first record of theirs i heard)

I know that some Smiths fans count those compilations (partcularly Hatful of Hollow) as "proper" albums alongside the main 4, but I don't think I ever have. They're useful to own, though.

In the same way as, say, The Beatles' Past Masters or Yellow Submarine are useful to own, I mean.

Ah, y'see, The Queen Is Dead was the first "proper" Smiths LP I heard, and then I went backwards from there to the beginning and got Strangeways last... so after hearing the thundering opening to The Queen Is Dead, 'Reel Around The Fountain' sounded a bit soggy in comparison. I do like the song, though!

my introduction to the smiths story is incredibly bad. i read perks of being a wallflower in high school, which prominently refers to the smiths and "asleep" in particular, over and over, and i was like "i gotta check this band out!! also my zits are exploding everywhere, whoooaa, shoot i forgot to do my homework, aw man and i hate my parents but i guess i love them too!"

Also, a bit baffling to put 'Reel Around The Fountain' as an opening track

The Smiths thought this was the stand-out song in their early set - the nearest they had to an all-time classic. It was going to be their second single before the whole paedophilia controversy. It's always been used as the most obvious example of the duff production/performances on the debut album - they had Paul Carrack add some keyboard to try to liven it up. The version on Hatful of Hollow is way better (as is the Troy Tate one), but received wisdom is they never recorded a great version of it.

Yeah, I'd definitely agree that it's one of those songs they never truly nailed in the studio. It's a wonderful song, but they never really got the best out of it that they could. It's understandable that it's often cited as an example of the production flaws of the debut... the drums in particular sound terrible - I'm not so much talking about Joyce's performance, although it is quite basic and not as assured as his drumming on later releases, more the actual sound as captured by the producer/engineer. Those snares sound really feeble, and the reverb sounds as if it's there to try and cover the bad snare sound up.

Turrcan's hate for Level 42 is hilarious at this point.

not sure if any of the 'Reel..' nay sayers are familiar with the Troy Tate version. easily the best version of a song i was never a huge fan of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOZ7iXsaoeM

Aw, man. Does LTB at #3 mean MIM is going to miss out? Assumed HOH would place

Blows my mind that this band did all it did in 5 years, and that Johnny Marr was still only 23 when they broke up. (FWIW, Tommy Stinson is a few years younger than Marr!).

Johnny Marr was still only 23 when they broke up

Yeah this is incredible to me.

Yeah, it's an incredible output over so few years and at such a young age. I think Paul Weller split up The Jam when he was in his early 20's, too. If only they could have found a manager that Morrissey could put up with or found it hard to be a prick to, and there may have been more Smiths music.

Even stranger, or not, was Marr's incredible lack of ego, going on to such a journeyman career, where even when he did officially join bands (Electronic, The The, Modest Mouse, the Cribs) he seemed as much a support player as when he played session guy.

http://i.imgur.com/03Y6FcD.jpg

2. MEAT IS MURDER (studio album, 1985)
1485 points | 45 votes | 8 first place votes

The best - my number one. Every track great (including the title track). A total showcase for Marr's most inventive playing.

whoa, kind of surprised by that, even though i like MiM (it was #5 on my ballot). just kind of shocked that Hatful didn't make it!

But wait, what was number 3?

Never mind, I missed it.

I am also shocked Hatful got bounced (because I cannot imagine that TQID isn't #1)

Whoa! Was just quietly mourning it's likely non-appearance, behind Strangeways, which felt like an outrage. Phew!

xxxxxxxp:

Yeah, absolutely... for all the praise that Marr has had, either as a guitarist or for his songwriting, he comes across as being quite modest. Even during videos where you see him demonstrating his guitar parts and talking you through it, there seems to be no ego there in a "yeah, I wrote this, aren't I amazing?" sense. Morrissey, on the other hand, I get the feeling he believes every single amount of positive press he's ever had.

Meat is Murder is perfect from start to finish. The title track is so haunting...really disturbing song.

Yeah, I think we can all guess what's #1 at this point.

I really prefer the cassette version of the album cover with the single image

http://eil.com/images/main/The+Smiths+Meat+Is+Murder+345583.jpg

I never play Meat Is Murder as a complete album but I like most, if not all, of it as individual songs

It's probably Rourke's best album in terms of his bass playing: 'Barbarism Begins At Home' has, of course, already been mentioned, but also 'Rusholme Ruffians' wouldn't be anywhere near the song it is without that nimble baseline that runs throughout the whole track... and to think they fired the guy at one point!

As you listened to the catalog for this project, did any new favorite songs emerge? Did any particular album surprise you in any way?

Since I've worked in the United States, in the last six or seven years, I've picked up on the fact that Meat is Murder was the record that was the introduction to the Smiths for a lot of people. Living in Portland meant that I would meet people who heard that record first. I know now that that record is more important to a lot of people than I realized. So I guess I kind of listened to it differently because a lot of my friends know that record best. I always have really liked "The Headmaster Ritual" off that record, and "That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore."

I'll be very disappointed if 'That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore' isn't up there in at least the Top 15. That one has never lost its potency for me.

I still think Rourke was pretty great from the very first single onwards, but yeah, plenty of memorable bass on MIM. I actually get a bit impatient with the final 1/3 or so of MIM, and tend to underrate it when I'm not listening to it. But I think voted for at least 5 of 9 tracks.

Nate seriously dragging out this painfully obvious #1 result here :P

The Smiths s/t was my #1 pick. This might sound daft, but, for me, the very muddiness of the sound actually felt like an integral part of the band's whole aesthetic. I always remember my first experience of it - sat on a draughty train station platform, waiting for a delayed train home, and this gloomily pretty music bathed in murk coming out of my cassette Walkman speakers. It fit. Like watching an unremastered early '60s kitchen-sink drama on the telly; all grubby greys and thin sound. The CD-era sleekness of Strangeways, and the stadium-filling drums of TQiD, never appealed to me as much. It wasn't quite the Smiths I fell in love with.

http://i.imgur.com/iVtbK8t.jpg

1. THE QUEEN IS DEAD (studio album, 1986)
1821 points | 51 votes | 16 first place votes

Meat is Murder is my favorite in terms of production, too. Gleaming, saphirric sound...

queen has never been my favorite smiths record bc of its wacky sequencing and at least three songs i have no use for

53 album ballots and 51 votes for TQiD - so who was the other person who didn't put it in their top 5?

Non shocker #1 but still great album. MIM was mine with TQID second.

It always surprises me that MIM appears to be their worst album in terms of critical reception. Guess the title track (which I really like) irritates a lot of people.

QiD was pushed out of my ballot to make room for RANK - which I have a nostalgic soft-spot for that won't budge.

Struggling to comprehend how someone can pick a top 5 from a band that only has four studio albums, one of which is TQID, and not include that in their ballot.

there's always the strategic vote

Totally dig DavidM's description the debut. While I had Hatful at #1, there's not much in it. 1983-84 Smiths will likely always be the very best Smiths in my mind. (Even though I barely heard them until about the time they broke up!)

i have to say, though, coming at the smiths catalog years after it all happened, i don't really see TQID as a slam dunk #1 (although it was #1 on my ballot). i can see reasonable arguments for all four. and if someone happened to like the other three a little better, and also wanted to throw in a vote for a live album or hatful or one of the other collections, i could see that too

Yeah I agree about the sound of the first album - it fits the mood of the songs perfectly, it sounds like what I imagine rainy Manchester in the early '80s to feel like (xpost).

Can we get the results without compilations? Compilations are not albums.

Yes they are. They cohere and play as units.

I feel like I short-changed the debut on my tracks ballot. The voting window was a rough time for me, and the listening time I allocated to it was stuck being a few days prior to revisiting the rest of the catalogue en masse (I've got the 'Complete' box and The Sound of... at hand)., so stuff was forgotten.

It was impossible for me to hear Louder Than Bombs -- impossible now knowing all I know -- as anything except a unit.

There's only one comp in the list, isn't there? Just pretend it isn't there it it offends thee.

Ah, my mistake. I mistook the image of Louder Than Bombs and the entry for Louder than Bombs to be 2 different compilation entries. Still, you wouldn't call a Single and Album would you? Here are the actual album results, though it does appear that i'm the only person who cares, so i'll just let it go after this post.

4. Strangeways
3. The Smiths
2. Meat Is Murder
1. The Queen Is Dead

Favorite Compilation: Louder Than Bombs

STUDIO ALBUMS

1. THE QUEEN IS DEAD (studio album, 1986) 1821 points | 51 votes | 16 first place votes
2. MEAT IS MURDER (studio album, 1985) 1485 points | 45 votes | 8 first place votes
3. THE SMITHS (studio album, 1984) 1228 points | 39 votes | 4 first place votes
4. STRANGEWAYS, HERE WE COME (studio album, 1987) 1109 points | 35 votes | 4 first place votes

COMPS

1. LOUDER THAN BOMBS (compilation album, 1987) 1398 points | 40 votes | 11 first place votes
2. HATFUL OF HOLLOW (compilation album, 1984) 1009 points | 29 votes | 9 first place votes
3. THE WORLD WON'T LISTEN (compilation album, 1987) 201 points | 6 votes | 0 first place votes
4. SINGLES (compilation album, 1995) 104 points | 3 votes | 1 first place votes
5. THE SOUND OF THE SMITHS (compilation album, 2008) 33 points | 1 votes | 0 first place votes
6. ...BEST II (compilation album, 1992) 28 points | 1 votes | 0 first place votes

ALL ALBUMS

1. THE QUEEN IS DEAD (studio album, 1986) 1821 points | 51 votes | 16 first place votes
2. MEAT IS MURDER (studio album, 1985) 1485 points | 45 votes | 8 first place votes
3. LOUDER THAN BOMBS (compilation album, 1987) 1398 points | 40 votes | 11 first place votes
4. THE SMITHS (studio album, 1984) 1228 points | 39 votes | 4 first place votes
5. STRANGEWAYS, HERE WE COME (studio album, 1987) 1109 points | 35 votes | 4 first place votes
6. HATFUL OF HOLLOW (compilation album, 1984) 1009 points | 29 votes | 9 first place votes
7. THE WORLD WON'T LISTEN (compilation album, 1987) 201 points | 6 votes | 0 first place votes
8. RANK (live album, 1988) 174 points | 6 votes | 0 first place votes
9. SINGLES (compilation album, 1995) 104 points | 3 votes | 1 first place votes
10. THE SOUND OF THE SMITHS (compilation album, 2008) 33 points | 1 votes | 0 first place votes
11. ...BEST II (compilation album, 1992) 28 points | 1 votes | 0 first place votes

Having an issue with comps placing seems a bit weird in the case of a band like The Smiths where a bunch of most essential material where non-lp singles and BBC sessions that make up most of their tracklistings.

...and by "their" I mean Hatful and the two '87 sets.

So, what's the planned schedule?

I was the lone voter for Best II - I'd already heard most of the first volume (my brother had it) but getting that one out of the local library in 1995 was what really got me into the band. I don't own a copy anymore but I put it as a sentimental #5. Also nine of its 14 songs are on my ballot.

(xxpost) Somewhat related: when I moderated at a user-built music database site there were constant arguments about whether Hatful should even be classed as a 'compilation', given that a slight majority (IIRC) of the tracks (the BBC ones) hadn't even had a previous commercial release. :)

Hatful feels distinct from the other compilations in that all the songs are from the same period and none appear (in the same form) on any other album.

surprised Hatful of Hollow didn't do better, I thought it was more loved than that. The only reason it wasn't my #1 is some of the live versions being inferior, but it's probably their best collection of songs (and best sequenced) though not their best collection of recordings.

astonished this got 80 ballots and beat Steely Dan's 77 ballots.

i didn't even get a chance to vote despite listening to the Smiths catalog, real life got in the way.

BTW, nate here is the link to the Moderator Request Forum, they can help you with your mistakes: http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=56

There's footage of them playing it at a gig in Germany on Youtube and when the track breaks down to just the bass and drums, Marr takes off his guitar and begins to shimmy around onstage, dancing with Moz.

at 26:07
https://youtu.be/2Y7YnL9SPjs

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, March 2, 2016 7:50 PM

There's footage of them playing it at a gig in Germany on Youtube and when the track breaks down to just the bass and drums, Marr takes off his guitar and begins to shimmy around onstage, dancing with Moz.

yeah, love that video. and the song. I wish there were more funky smiths tracks !

Most regrettable white man dancing I've seen in weeks

Interesting! I never thought to look up actual audio before now. (But probably old news for many.)
Surviving demo from Marr/Rourke's pre-Smiths funk-oriented outfit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s-vZtJ3SV8

Most regrettable white man dancing I've seen in weeks

The Dorks ! I'm even surprised Moz accepted to sing on a funky music, really...

Top 50 starting soon..

Big big thanks to Johnny Fever for providing the graphics for the rundown. He's done a brilliant job, far better than I could've done - pivot tables and vlookups I'm good with, graphics and designs not so much.

Kicking off the top 50 rundown with a cheery little number..

http://i.imgur.com/RFKA77Q.jpg

50. SUFFER LITTLE CHILDREN (B-side of 'Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now' | Album track from The Smiths)
258 points | 13 votes

suffer adult listeners

I kind of had the way that I hear this song upended earlier this week when I read a something that quotes this part:

But we will be, we will be, we will be, right by your side
Until the day you die
This is no easy ride
We will haunt you when you laugh
Yes, you could say we're a team
You might sleep
You might sleep
You might sleep
BUT YOU WILL NEVER DREAM !

and the writer seemed to think that the 'you' here refers to Brady and Hindley, but ever since I first heard the song I always assumed that the 'you' was the parents of the missing children, that it was a reference back to the 'A woman said : "I know my son is dead' line, and it never occurred to me that it could read a different way. I'd be interested to know how other people had heard it

always assumed brady/hindley

i like this song but it is in about the right place imo. but then on going through i realized there are only maybe 10 songs in the catalogue i would say i don't like.

I'm starting to think I'm wrong and that Brady/Hindley is the 'correct' reading, but I always took it to be about this immeasurable grief of a bereaved parent rather than the murderers being plagued by guilt

http://i.imgur.com/20DNMD4.jpg

49. I WANT THE ONE I CAN'T HAVE (Album track from Meat Is Murder)
262 points | 12 votes

I didn't end up voting for anything from Meat Is Murder. This and Well I Wonder were the only ones that made my long list.

i have this as the second worst song on MIM after the title track and this song is great so...pretty good album.

xp crazy talk

wow that's already two from my ballot

the images are great

re: the images...I was only able to get today's 10 done last night before my computer said "fuck you, I'm tired," but a lot of these are Roger Mayne photos (noted source of actual Smiths/Moz cover art). I'm gonna run out of usable Mayne material before long, though, so other post-war street photographer names are welcome.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=shirley+baker&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikiZfA3KTLAhWLF5oKHbVsDIUQ_AUIBygB&biw=1280&bih=899

Perfect, thanks!!!

http://i.imgur.com/co0rZmc.jpg

48. THESE THINGS TAKE TIME (B-side of 'What Difference Does It Make?' 12")
285 points | 12 votes | 2 first place votes

0/3 so far

This is my first vote to place. I like their barnburner songs.

My first vote to place too. So much better than the A-side.

Quite fond of the A-side as well. :(

That's one of the hits that has been totally overplayed over the years for me. I'd always hear it when I went out and even though I don't really go out that much anymore, I still don't get a lot out of it.

http://i.imgur.com/1Kfs05a.jpg

47. YOU'VE GOT EVERYTHING NOW (Album track from The Smiths)
292 points | 14 votes

another one of mine! think this was the moment when first listening to the s/t where i thought, "ok i love this band now"

but i don't want a lover
i just want to be seeeen
in the back of your car

Love this one. Lyrically it's one of my favourite songs ever and his deadpan delivery is so perfect.

I am surprised that "These Things Take Time" wasn't on my ballot

I voted for You've Got Everything Now. Great song!

Morrissey's falsetto on this just kills me.

You've Got Everything Now is one of my least favorite Smiths' songs, but it's still pretty good.

I really like "You've Got Everything Now" EXCEPT for the falsetto

I played it again a few minutes ago and it cracked my eyeglass frames.

but I always took it to be about this immeasurable grief of a bereaved parent rather than the murderers being plagued by guilt

― soref, Thursday, March 3, 2016 5:39 AM (3 hours ago)

yeah, I always thought of it as the haunting was being done by Hindley/Brady, and it wasn't just the parents being haunted, but "everyone" affected by the child murders. For some reason I remember (could be false memory) that some of that part was derived from actual things said by Myra & Ian in court?

http://i.imgur.com/QcuHKs7.jpg

46. FRANKLY, MR. SHANKLY (Album track from The Queen Is Dead)
293 points | 14 votes

I tend to like the glass-shattering moments in the Smiths' discography, but I have a sneaking affection for histrionics. I read the end of "Suffer" along sarahell's lines: Hindley's guilt ("Hindley wakes") becomes the trauma of Manchester as a community (including the narrator).

I always felt "I Want The One I Can't Have" was the highlight of MIM, the band doing what they do best. It was in my top 5. A favorite of Morrissey's, it was rarely missing from their live sets.

too low

I love the simplicity and humor of the verses contrasted with the sheer depth and complexity of the instrumental break section

love the lyrics but i've never particularly liked the song

I enjoy "Frankly, Mr. Shankly" but I wish it had an ending

I like the idea of just stopping a song once it runs out of things to say

"Give us your money" is a perfect ending!

0/5

On a roll

like many of you, i've been on a smiths binge this week, and i kinda wish i had snuck Frankly into my ballot. in general i'm not a huge fan of upbeat songs (ignoring the lyrics) that make me feel like doing a big bouncy walk and eating ice cream, but the wordless chorus just rules

0/5

On a roll

That's what you would expect to have got so far if your tastes exactly correlated with the results.

^^ lol

"Shankly" a very solid entry in the canon, marred by terrible placement after that furious opening jam. Might have been better as a beloved b-side than an album track? Anyway, not in my ballot but deserves its spot in the list about here IMO.

yeah, I always thought of it as the haunting was being done by Hindley/Brady, and it wasn't just the parents being haunted, but "everyone" affected by the child murders. For some reason I remember (could be false memory) that some of that part was derived from actual things said by Myra & Ian in court?

― sarahell, Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:57 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh, I hadn't even considered that! I heard the 'we' in "we will be right by your side" as referring to the children, the parents being haunted by the children as a constant presence/absence

I voted for 3/4 of the first four and regret failing to find room for the fourth. Blimey! On the other hand I didn't consider "Shankly" for even an instant, but it's still pretty great. Could "Vicar" perhaps be the only TQID track not to place?

For being such a canonical great album The Queen is Dead is often frivolous and flirts with banality, which is why I love it; it constantly undermines its own importance.

after 7 years on ilx, i'm rarely surprised how much other posters' tastes differ from mine

love the way that 'Shankly' comes straight after the title track and also the transition from 'Vicar' to 'There Is A Light', aside from 'I Know It's Over' being followed by 'Never Had No One Ever' the whole album is really well sequenced imo

http://i.imgur.com/Cz9ABci.jpg

45. WHAT SHE SAID (B-side of 'Shakespeare's Sister' | Album track from Meat Is Murder)
301 points | 13 votes | 1 first place vote

'Suffer Little Children' was one of those tracks that wasn't initially a favourite of mine, but grew on me a hell of a lot over time. It's probably one of the most creepy songs the band ever did. 'I Want The One I Can't Have' for me is one of those "this wasn't a single?" moments, and I've always loved 'Shankly' ...

'You've Got Everything Now' has never really been a favourite of mine, and probably has the worst use of Morrissey falsetto after 'Miserable Lie' ... I can't help but think it was a 2nd tied song for them even at that early stage.

'What She Said' fucking rules! Listening to the rhythm section on this in comparison with the stuff on the debut is like day and night. It wasn't an immediate favourite, but again, it's become a real favourite over time and it knocked me sideways when I last listened to Meat Is Murder. A real barnstormer.

soto and soref otm re: tqid

suffer little children is the only one of these that appeared on my ballot (at #10), to me it's a pretty quintessential smith's song in a lot of ways, depressing as hell subject matter (how many songs can you put on your debut album about child abuse/murder? a few if youre the smiths), "Manchester, so much to answer for" is a classic moz lyric, nice marr guitar twiddlings

xpost:

Yeah, the only sequencing issue I have with The Queen Is Dead is the placement of 'Never Had No One Ever' ... but where else could it have gone? It's definitely my least favourite track on there... yeah, I do prefer 'Vicar In A Tutu' ...

They got a lot of shit for 'Suffer Little Children', iirc.

i may have voted 'vicar in a tutu' but this girl i had a crush on always did this charming af performance of it at karaoke so extenuating circumstances

I remember at the time telling people "Oh I love country music, check this out" and then playing them "Vicar In a Tutu"

They got a lot of shit for 'Suffer Little Children', iirc.

yes, there's a scan of a contemporary article here: https://braceneckboy.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/smiths-moors-row.jpg

(also typed up about halfway down this page: http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/websites/index2.php?username=thesmithsfile&page=8)

after 7 years on ilx, i'm rarely surprised how much other posters' tastes differ from mine

― sarahell, Thursday, March 3, 2016 9:30 AM (1 hour ago

"what she said" is great, i nearly voted for it

I should have voted for it: it has such momentum.

love what she said, was in my top 10. great song, great vocal performance. what she said/rubber ring obv classic too

"What She Said" was in my top ten too. Largely for the lyrics, which I find hilariously over the top. "What she said was sad" obviously, but this is one that comes to mind when Morrissey insists there's more humour in his writing than is widely recognised.

I like the way that 'What She Said' sounds unlike so everything else on Meat Is Muder, murky and heavy where the rest of the album sounds clean and thin - it sounds more like a song from the debut or Hatful. and momentum is right, it sounds like it's about to careen out of control. I never heard it as being tounge is cheek, it seems like one of Morrissey's least ironic lyrics, it sounds genuinely horrified

tounge IN cheeck, rather

goes on way too long IMO. could be said of a lot of the MIM tracks mind, that's one thing they lost post-Hatful; timing. whole album could have a good 5 minutes shaved off.

I love "Suffer" despite the lyrics, which I think are pretty clumsy. I could listen to the guitar track over and over.

xp "What She Said" is the first Smiths song I ever owned, on an NME 7" I picked up in a used shop. It made me fall in love. Love "I smoke 'cause I'm hoping for an early death and I need to cling to something".

xxxxpost:

I think the humour in some of Morrissey's lyrics is impossible to miss, to be honest with you. Like the verse about breaking into the palace on 'The Queen Is Dead' ... "Eh, I know you and you cannot sing/I said 'That's nothing, you should hear me play piano'"

pian-ER

that's one thing they lost post-Hatful; timing

there are plenty of songs that go on too long both before MiM and after

xxxpost:

Hahahaha! Isn't 'What She Said', like, under 3 minutes long?

as a teen it was easy to take some of the miserablism at fake value, but it wasn't until later that the humor became evident and increased my appreciation tenfold. Morrissey is *really* funny.

face value

"I smoke 'cause I'm hoping for an early death and I need to cling to something"

this is nicked almost word for word from Elizabeth Smart, right? (no shade, I love the way Morrissey borrowed quotes and phrases for his lyrics)

it's gallows humor

I don't think I even really thought of them as sad when I first bought Smiths records. I got into them for the black humour.

3xpost

re: What She Said and most other songs, the humor in The Queen is Dead is not gallows humor, it's Morrissey making dad jokes, and is great in a different way

'Barbarism Begins At Home' could be double the length and I wouldn't mind, tbh.

Barbarism Begins At Home is a bit too long ... still voted for it, but didn't RANK it as high for that reason

This site gives the Smart quote as “I have learned to smoke because I need something to hold on to.” I really like the "hoping for an early death part" but yeah.

have i ever posted about that song being the reason i started smoking? That was my, er, "anthem" throughout the 90s

This page is a brilliant list of some of Morrissey's steals - including another from Elizabeth Smart in the same song: "I wonder why no one has noticed that I am dead and taken the trouble to bury me".

What She Said was in my top 10. Bizarre to think of it as too long - amazing guitar parts I could listen to over and over. The Rank version with the intro and outro of Rubber Ring is fantastic too.

"You've Got Everything Now" placed in the middle of my ballot. It's prime bedsit-era Moz, moping over his bad life choices. <3

"all heady books she'd sit and prophesise (It took a tattooed boy from Birkenhead to really really open her eyes)" - love this flash of contempt, kind of an echo of "there's more to life than books, you know', and all the sacred/profane stuff in Morrissey's lyrics

Good song, and I like the sequencing between "I Want The One..." and "That Joke Isn't Funny..." I appreciate that run of the first six songs on MIM more than ever, but still think "Well I Wonder" brings it to a maudlin, dreary halt.

http://i.imgur.com/RnsphRp.jpg

44. NOWHERE FAST (Album track from Meat Is Murder)
305 points | 14 votes | 1 first place vote

My #2. Another one that was going to be a single.

I don't read that moment as contemptuous, necessarily, but it does seem self-mocking, and in line with Morrissey's other appreciations of trade. Otm about the sacred/profane tension, though.

Xxp

WTFF? This should be top 15 at least! I drop my trousers to y'all.

I've never been into 'Nowhere Fast' much.

nowhere fast possibly best smiths lyric? up there anyhow

No matter what age you are a couplet like "I was looking for a job and then I found a job/And heaven knows im miserable now" is hilarious

This and 'Well I Wonder' are probably the two songs on Meat Is Murder that I don't have much to say about. I don't hate them, but neither of them have ever been favourites. They're both kinda just there for me.

One of Morrissey's very best manglings of the comic and the genuinely sad. So many brilliant lines: "Each household appliance is like a new science in my town"; "And when I'm lying in my bed I think about life and I think about death, and neither one particularly appeals to me". The latter is probably the best bit of lyric/singing he ever came up with.

shamed to say that I can't think of nowhere fast off the top of my head

xp that is the smiths lyric that will most often pops into my head. so perfectly captures the feeling it is describing.

nowhere fast possibly best smiths lyric? up there anyhow

yeah the couplet "if the day came when I felt a natural emotion / i'd get such a shock I'd probably jump in the ocean" made this song my college anthem

I think that's the song and album which made Christgau intimate that they were proto-Gamergate nerd-bullies.

Should have titled this poll "I was looking for a POLL and then I found a POLL, and heaven knows I'm miserable POLL!!!"

Nowhere Fast is one of the songs with a Peel session version that never saw official release: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-Fg6XWT9w. Less lively and doesn't have the brilliant guitar bits in the middle eight, but has a throatier vocal.

Was trying not to embed the youtube clip there. Guess I fucked it up.

I'm up to my ears in work deadlines or I'd do it – would someone consider assembling a Spotify playlist of the rollout?

Really nervous that "This Night Has Opened My Eyes" won't place...

can't imagine that there are 42 Smiths tracks ilm rates above 'This Night Has Opened My Eyes', I wouldn't worry about it

Just catching up. First of all - thanks to whoever posted the youtube link to the 1984 gig in Hamburg where Johnny Marr takes off his guitar and starts dancing around to Barbarism Begins At Home - brilliant. I ended up watching almost the whole gig and not going to bed until stupid o'clock. I was glad (I don't know why) that when they played Pretty Girls Make Graves he did the 'Hand in gloooove...the sun shines...' bit at the end that's on the record.

Secondly, I always assumed those lines in Suffer Little Children were about Hindley and Brady being haunted by their victims. I'd never considered any other possibility, but what I've read here has got me thinking.

Thirdly - just remembered how much I love These Things Take Time, but can't remember if I even voted for it. Need to check.

Really nervous that "This Night Has Opened My Eyes" won't place...

I am only nervous that it won't be in the top 2

immediately after i sent off my ballot i regretted not making "this night" my no. 1

my no. 1 is really weird anyway

xp Well that's reassuring.

This Night... will definitely place. I put These Things Take Time as my no.20, it turns out.

http://i.imgur.com/xJQWNTP.jpg

43. BARBARISM BEGINS AT HOME (Album track from Meat Is Murder)
310 points | 17 votes

Surprised at how low that one is

yeah less than 1 in 4 ballots seems low

TOO LOW!

idg what's so special about This Night Has Opened My Eyes, a song that has never left an impression w me

First of mine to place and what Turrican said

"barbarism" just missed my ballot. it is funky as hell

Love Morrissey's yelps on this track

I love how Morrissey's lyric says so much but in so few words.

TBH, I can totally see most being fond of "Barbarism" while not struggling to find twenty songs they like more. It is a bit monotonous [in the most literal, not-necessarily-disparaging sense] and atypical after all.

Well, it's their version of funk, and funk is kinda meant to be
repetitive!

http://i.imgur.com/a2kC5h2.jpg

42. DEATH OF A DISCO DANCER (Album track from Strangeways, Here We Come)
350 points | 18 votes | 1 first place vote

xpost:

I do agree that it's atypical, though. I remember hearing it for the first time and thinking "fuck, I didn't expect this!"

TOO LOW, AGAIN!

'Death of a Disco Dancer' is wonderful, IMO, and easily one of the highlights of that album. I love Morrissey's vocal melodies throughout and I often feel this one gets overlooked.

I really can't articulate why so many of the Strangeways songs went from "cool, a gateway into a new band" to "oh my god I would rather murder myself than listen to this" for me but I am trying to give "Death of a Disco Dancer" a fair shake right now and I am literally feeling my skin crawl, the urge to turn it off is so strong. The weird thing is that I can tell objectively that my phobic reaction to the song is wholly out of step with anything happening in the song itself; it's really not THAT bad! But my entire body is screaming "STOP TORTURING ME" at me while I listen to it. I can't explain why.

(especially considering that I still really enjoy "A Rush and A Push..." and, in certain moods, "Stop Me...")

Playing catch-up here, two comments:

1. I'm in the soref camp on the interpretation of "Suffer Little Children": I've always assumed that "we will haunt you when you laugh" etc. was directed at the parents. In fact I never considered that it might be directed at the killers. Thinking about it now, I'm guessing my tacit assumption was that Brady and Hindley must have been psychopaths, and therefore unlikely to feel haunted by what they did. The parents, on the other hand, absolutely would be haunted forever. The lyric always struck me as a bit cruel for that reason, as well as extremely, almost unbearably poignant.

2. It's interesting to me that people are so split on "Nowhere Fast", with some saying it's one of the band's best and others saying it's never made a strong impression. I'm firmly in the latter group: when it placed I had to look it up to remember how it went. I wonder how many other songs in the poll will get reactions like tat.

"death of a disco dancer" is amazing

love peace and harmony?
oh, very nice, very nice, very nice, very nice
but maybe in the next world

Pretty sure "Disco Dancer" was the only track from Strangeways to make my ballot. Love Morrissey's vocals on that one.

Surprised at how low the last two are, voted for both and had Death of a Disco Dancer at #6.

Strangeways came out about a month after the breakup was announced if I recall (or maybe us Yanks were late to get the news?), and that fact might have affected my perception of it. It felt like a band technically at the peak of their powers, but trying too hard to do something different, and ending up a bit of a dull dirge. All these years later I recognize "Death of A Disco..." "Last Night..." and a couple others as good, but will never get near my top 20.

great images btw

xxp

(or maybe us Yanks were late to get the news?)

I remember thinking, "Cool, a new album! Hope they tour!" So yeah, we (or at least, the less-hip of us) didn't hear about the breakup until well after the album was out.

"death" and "last night" are all about build and atmosphere in a way i think they were aiming for throughout their career, but they kinda perfected it on those songs imo

'Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before' is one of their five best songs for me.

but i voted strangeways as my no. 1 album so imo don't trust me

Didn't Marr basically break up the band the moment the album was completed? I understand things had been simmering for a while, no doubt helped along by Morrissey's attitude to managers and not bothering to turn up for the 'Sheila Take a Bow' shoot.

The guitar in "Death...." reminds me of Gang of Four.

"death" and "last night" are all about build and atmosphere in a way i think they were aiming for throughout their career, but they kinda perfected it on those songs imo

agreed. Listening to a bunch of their songs the other day with middle-aged person ears and deciding i liked some of the songs I had loved as an adolescent less now because of production-related stuff (e.g. a lot of songs on the self-titled debut), and then listening to those two and liking them more.

"Nowhere Fast" was the last song I cut but maybe I should have kept it. Love Marr's layers on that.

I guess the thing with "Nowhere Fast" - why I ended up cutting it and maybe why people are divided on it - is that it has a great guitar part and lyrics but there is not much to it melodically.

Didn't vote but catching with it now.

Almost always listen to this group - if at all - through its compilations.

The stuff on Strangeaways is a bit out of place and just off, Marr's spiky guitar picking etc.

http://i.imgur.com/X2erEfa.jpg

41. STRETCH OUT AND WAIT (B-side of 'Shakespeare's Sister' 12" | Album track from The World Won't Listen)
361 points | 17 votes | 1 first place vote

oh, I'd hoped this would place higher. did they ever record anything more joyful than this track?

It's so much better than the A-side it isn't even funny.

'Shakespeare's Sister' remains one of those Smiths tracks that has never really grabbed me, in all honesty. See also: 'Shoplifters Of The World Unite'

'Nowhere Fast' was high on my list, I always associate it with 'Still Ill' because they were next to each other on Best II but also I think they're quite similar musically. I really like thee peppy early songs like those two, 'These Things Take Time' and 'You've Got Everything Now'.

"Shakespeare's Sister" and "London" always blur into the same song in my mind. Before checking, "Shakespeare's Sister" is the one that goes "young bones groan and the rocks below moan 'throw your skinny body down, son" and "London" is the one that goes "smoke lingers 'round your fingers"?

"Stretch Out and Wait" is a perfectly pleasant one, just not top 20 for me.

2xp

Shakespeare's Sister is easily their weakest A-side (xposts).

My #1

It's so much better than the A-side it isn't even funny.

I was going to say! but they seemed to make a habit out of releasing singles where the A-side was far superior to the B-side

Before checking, "Shakespeare's Sister" is the one that goes "young bones groan and the rocks below moan 'throw your skinny body down, son" and "London" is the one that goes "smoke lingers 'round your fingers"?

Nailed it! But yeah, obv, not my favourites.

sh. sister/ what she said/ stretch out is an amazing 12".

"Stretch Out and Wait" is pretty! That mandolin line. It's the first time on an early song that Moz's voice accompanies or improvises over a guitar/mandolin line without sound like a cat in a vacuum.

The Smiths have about 65+ good songs and maybe five bad ones, and for me these last three - Barbarism, Disco Dancer, Stretch Out and Wait - are near the bottom of the 65 good ones. They're still good, but I like a lot of less popular ones better. For me, Unhappy Birthday is better than any of them. And Never Had No One Never. And definitely, by miles, Shakespeare's Sister.

^ Pretty much exactly this. Nice time signature on this one though.

Haven't listened in a while but isn't it 12/8?

Seems so. Though any departure from 4/4 in rock is impressive enough for me, tbh.

I can't easily tell the difference between 12/8, 6/4 or 6/8 etc, but I recognise when something is in sixes rather than fours, and The Smiths have an unusually high number of things in sixes for a rock band.

Stretch Out And Wait and You've Got Everything Now were my biggest re-evaluations from going through everything again for this. Neither had left much of an impression on me before but Stretch Out and Wait is really lovely, just missed my ballot. You've Got Everything Now is fantastic, it made my top 10. The verse isn't their best but the chorus is thrilling, one of their very best from that period.

"Shakespeare's Sister" inspired a band with a couple good singles.

Nate, thanks a lot for this! Did you make the images? Thanks if so. They are great so far.

Were they inspired by the smiths or Wolfe?

Woolf, rather.

stretch out and wait is way too low

Were they inspired by the smiths or Wolfe?

― pastoral fantasy (jed_), Thursday, March 3, 2016

Wilde was on Moz's side iirc

Ha!

Shakespeare's Sister rules so fucking hard

yeah I liked "Stay" a lot

Nate, thanks a lot for this! Did you make the images? Thanks if so. They are great so far.

― pastoral fantasy (jed_), Thursday, March 3, 2016 9:50 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Were they inspired by the smiths or Wolfe?

― pastoral fantasy (jed_), Thursday, March 3, 2016 9:51 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Me, actually. 100% inspired by Smiths album/single art.

Thanks!

So far only voted for "Shankly" and "Barbarism," but I like "Nowhere Fast" a lot. The video is like Gay Elvis with young Keith Richards.

happy to out myself as one of the #1 votes for "these things take time" and glad to have made a difference. the guitar line at the end of the chorus still blows my mind.

Death of a Disco Dancer was my #1. Way too low

This is what Simon Goddard has to say about Suffer Little Children in his 'Songs That Saved Your Life' book:

One of the first songs to cement the partnership of Morrissey and Marr, written at their inaugural practice in the summer of 1982, the dreadful yet captivating ‘Suffer Little Children’ was the former’s highly controversial elegy to the victims of the ‘Moors Murderers’, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley.

To fully understand and appreciate its intent, we have to place the song and its author into the context of time and location. In 1966, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder of 17 year-old Edward Evans, ten year-old Lesley Anne Downey and 12 year-old John Kilbride. The latter two victims had been buried in shallow graves on Saddleworth Moor just outside of Manchester, a gory detail that was to christen the couple ‘the Moors Murderers’.

The killings took place between July 1963 and October 1965, in and around Manchester and its surrounding market towns. Born in May 1959, Morrissey would have been a six year-old child living in the city at the time of their arrest when they were still on the lookout for potential prey. ‘I happened to live on the streets where, close by, some of the victims had been picked up,’ he told The Face in 1985. ‘Within that community, news of the crimes totally dominated all attempts at conversation for quite a few years. It was like the worst thing that had ever happened, and I was very, very aware of everything that occurred. Aware as a child who could have been a victim.’

It follows that ‘Suffer Little Children’ is an account of the Moors Murders as written by a potential victim; a personal memorial intended to highlight the diabolical enormity of Brady and Hindley’s actions. At the time of its composition, and release on The Smiths, the couple had only ever been convicted of the Kilbride, Downey and Evans murders while Hindley had continually protested her innocence as a mere love-struck accomplice. In 1987, three years after ‘Suffer Little Children’ first appeared on vinyl, Brady confessed to a journalist interviewing him in prison that, as suspected, they were also responsible for the deaths of 16 year-old Pauline Reade and 12 year-old Keith Bennett who both vanished during the same period. After a cordoned search of the moor, remains of Reade’s body were found. Tragically, those of Bennett have never been located, lending an unbearable weight to the song’s grim refrain — ‘find me, find me’.

In terms of lyrical detail, Morrissey’s main source was Emlyn Williams’ biography Beyond Belief, describing with chilling matter-of-factness the fate of the three victims the couple were originally convicted of. First published in 1967 (barely a year after their imprisonment), Williams’ book tells the murderers’ story in vicarious, narrative prose plumping for fictitious supposition over clinical analysis. ‘Suffer Little Children’ itself is one of Williams’ chapter titles, so too ‘Hindley Wakes’, a pun on Stanley Houghton’s Lancashire drama Hindle Wakes. Williams draws explicit attention to Lesley Ann Downey’s ‘white beads’ and cites Hindley’s confession during police interrogation that ‘wherever he has gone, I have gone.’ It his Williams, too, who is responsible for that harrowing vision of buried bodies upon Saddleworth Moor screaming out ‘find me, find me.’

As had been the case with ‘The Hand That Rocks The Cradle’, Morrissey had already written the lyrics to ‘Suffer Little Children’ before forming The Smiths while Marr had also been tinkering with its innocently tuneful chords many weeks before their first writing session. Originally he’d conceived the track with a separate melancholy piano epilogue tacked onto the end as included on its first demo prototype and the Troy Tate version. Although Marr recorded this coda with Porter, it would be axed from the final edit of The Smiths only to resurface in its own right in more mature form as 1985’s ‘Asleep’.

Whatever their misgivings about the quality of their debut, Marr always expressed contentment that with Porter, ‘Suffer Little Children’ had come out exactly as they’d intended. Beautifully arranged, Morrissey’s delivery is impeccable, accentuating the ‘stolid stench of death’ with thespian gravity over Marr’s tender yet lachrymose score. The Hindley vocal, again courtesy of Morrissey’s mysterious old flame Annalisa Jablonska, was also denser and less vaudevillian than previous attempts.

The song was, perhaps inevitably, to attract controversy when later issued as a B-side to their 1984 summer single ‘Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now’, aggravated by its sleeve of a peroxide Viv Nicholson which bore an unsettling resemblance to Hindley herself. The local Manchester press were first to question Morrissey’s motives after the grandfather of John Kilbride expressed his disgust having first heard the song on a pub jukebox. ‘He said he was going to kill us if he ever saw us,’ says Joyce. ‘As far as I’m aware, “Suffer Little Children” was Morrissey saying that he didn’t think such a heinous crime should be put under the carpet. But in the 60s people couldn’t really understand it. That’s what they did.’

It wasn’t long before The Smiths found themselves once again fending off the redtop lynch mob in a depressing repeat of the ‘Handsome Devil’ debacle. High street chains Woolworths and Boots reacted by removing The Smiths from sale. An official press statement from Rough Trade reiterated their innocence. ‘The song was written out of a profound emotion by Morrissey, a Mancunian who feels that the particularly horrendous crime it describes must be borne by the conscience of Manchester and that it must never happen again.’

The scandal was only placated when Morrissey arranged a meeting with Ann West, the mother of Lesley Ann Downey, to express his concerns over the media misunderstanding and explain to her the song’s honest intent. He succeeded, both in mollifying the witch hunt and sustaining a friendship with West for several years: she and her husband, Alan West, would later be thanked on the inner sleeve of Meat Is Murder. After her death in 1999, Morrissey further paid tribute describing West as ‘a remarkable woman’.

And this is the Troy Tate version he refers to:

The Smiths : Suffer Little Children (Troy Tate)

that is an excellent summary. For me Suffer Little Children has always been the most haunting song from the debut record, genuinely chilling but also Morrissey at his compassionate best.

Does Manchester actually have anything to answer for or is just a good line?

Northside?

There's that but I'm not sure why these murders should be "be borne by the conscience of Manchester". Just sayin', like.

no more than Gloucester was responsible for Fred West I suppose, but I think lyrical or artistic responses don't therefore become invalid?

^^ Have you been to Gloucester?

No more than death with no reason is murder.

xp hah yeah it is "that kind of place" isn't it!

no more than Gloucester was responsible for Fred West I suppose, but I think lyrical or artistic responses don't therefore become invalid?

Of course not, it was the validity of the portentous interpretation of them I was calling into question.

http://i.imgur.com/4k67ccG.jpg

40. IS IT REALLY SO STRANGE? (B-side of 'Sheila Take a Bow')
365 points | 19 votes | 1 first place vote

i went through the queen is dead and the s/t in high school/college and thought, "oh I might be done with the smiths now." a few months later I listen to louder than bombs out of curiosity and this song knocks me flat

The girl I dated my senior year in high school asked a friend to make a video of this song with the girl stuck by the side of the road waiting for a bus that never came. Symbolic.

This was a great choice to kick off LTB with, except once it's gone by I never remember it.

Of the 11 tracks so far, 6 of them have had at least one first place vote

yeah i sort of love that, especially bc my no. 1 felt kinda weird when i submitted my ballot, but maybe others did the same

There was a big spread of no.1s, 40 songs had at least one no.1 vote

Occurred to me that over the many years I've barely spent time with any album as such save "Queen." Most of my listening has been to five or six comps. Hmm.

Re: Barbarism, amazing what influence the Go4 had on even effete/weedy/wimpy/whatever bands like REM and the Smiths.

Bought the Goddard book. Surprised but not Surprised how many Moz lyrics are responses to the press or fans or otherwise superficial stuff of the moment.

http://i.imgur.com/oul1mAz.jpg

39. BACK TO THE OLD HOUSE (B-side of 'What Difference Does It Make?')
391 points | 18 votes

I'mm not as enamored of HOH as most of you but this is one version I prefer.

Yeah, the Hatful version is one of their most beautiful tracks. The Louder than Bombs one not so much.

wow at 40 different #1 songs. over half the total catalogue getting #1 votes is a record that's unlikely to be challenged.

"Back to the Old House" is just sublime. Really affecting track, musically and lyrically. My #5.

yeah, that's insane. xp

but completely understandable. even the songs i don't like as much almost always have a memorable line that stands out and makes you do the "hmph!" face

Co-sign the praise for the images and the effort spent tabulating all this. Wishing I'd brought the iPod to work today to cycle through each track as it appears, but love how easily each comes to mind.

my suspicion is There is a Light is gonna get number 1 just by virtue of appearing fairly high on the most ballots

^^That's my token "Cut It Because Everybody Else Is Gonna Vote For It" for this poll.

I didn't vote for it either, but then 1/4 of what i voted for has already placed, so

http://i.imgur.com/Gysghnf.jpg

38. RUSHOLME RUFFIANS (Album track from Meat Is Murder)
393 points | 18 votes

I didn't vote for this, but it might be my favorite of their stabs at rockabilly.

i might have voted for all their rockabilly stabs

My god, I love "Rusholme". So evocative. One of their sharpest 'I've been there' songs for me.

the grease in the hair
of a speedway operator
is all a tremulous heart requires

^ fav morrissey lyric when revisiting the discography last week

I nearly put this as my #1, specifically the version from Rank. I always think of it as a cousin of 'There Is A Light That Never Goes Out', they remind me of teenage feeling of going out somewhere and being around lots of people and feeling 'this is finally it, my REAL LIFE is beginning!', also combination of love + sex + violence + death, and of this giddy exuberance that's could spill over into despair at any moment. and it's so shameless in that it's basically the lyrics from Victoria Wood's '14 Again' + the music from 'His latest Flame', but they manage to make something totally new from it! the bit on the Rank version where the band shifts from 'His latest Flame' to the more raucous opening to 'Rusholme Ruffians' might be my favourite single moment from any Smiths track

http://i.imgur.com/VzzXU2b.jpg

37 (TIE). A RUSH AND A PUSH AND THE LAND IS OURS (Album track from Strangeways, Here We Come)
395 points | 20 votes | 1 first place vote

------------------------------

http://i.imgur.com/9lC1cWv.jpg

37 (TIE). LAST NIGHT I DREAMT THAT SOMEBODY LOVED ME (Single A-side | Album track from Strangeways, Here We Come)
395 points | 19 votes | 1 first place vote

------------------------------

http://i.imgur.com/NV13iPY.jpg

37 (TIE). PAINT A VULGAR PICTURE (Album track from Strangeways, Here We Come)
395 points | 15 votes | 2 first place votes

ok lol

RR made my Top 25 but not my final ballot. Love it

the strangeways trio

i voted for the latter two. love the way "paint a vulgar picture" never seems to resolve, and of course the unbelievable sustained mood of "last night."

"a rush and a push" is a lot of fun

"A Rush..." was on my shortlist but didn't make it onto my ballot.

these are all too low

high five to other PAVP #1 voter

I would like to hug the person who voted Last Night #1. It was my #2. It really holds up ... the production is beautiful.

All great songs, although I only voted for "Rush". Such a brilliant arrangement, nothing else in their catalog sounds quite like it. In trying to describe it all I can think of is the phrase "mystical time zone" from the opening lines.

"Paint a Vulgar PIcture" is another example of how Strangeways boasts some of Marr's best guitar tones and worst songs. I do like the song, particularly the nylon string solo

i was listening to my tape of strangeways in the car yesterday, and the thing that gets me about most of the songs is how they seem to be a vocal melody (or non-melody) and lyrics just *plopped* on top of a backing track.

that's... most Smiths songs?

OTM

no, not really.

Yeah I mean, the melodies meander on TQID but also follow a strong pattern/template that feels better integrated with the music than most of what you get on Strangeways, which reads at times a little like Morrissey sat down to workshop wandering melodic line creation with Robert Smith but got bored 5 minutes into the conversation and wandered out of the room.

DJP otm

Shortlisted "A Rush..."--it has this cool European folk song influence not found as easily elsewhere in the catalogue.

The meandering Moz melodies are partly what makes the songs so interesting. I mean, the music is generally air-tight, but the vocals go all over the place, not just in terms of pitch/key but also in terms of when/if he repeats lines and where, how the songs are structured, etc.

to my ears the vast majority of Smiths songs, right from the debut onwards, involve Morrissey abandoning any sort of standard lyric/melody-writing structure - he doesn't stick to meters, he regularly crams in too many syllables or stretches out too few, his phrasing and arrangement of melodic lines is really odd, almost untethered to what Marr is doing. Instrumental sections that a more conventional vocalist would treat as an opportunity for a hook he might just let go by entirely; or instead of a repeated refrain he'll abruptly switch to some wordless caterwauling.

and yeah this is not a bad thing, it's really interesting!

I did not het around to vote in the end but "Last Night..." would have been my #1 or #2, fwiw

I'm shocked it is so low.

high five to other PAVP #1 voter

That would be me. I'm an unapologetic Strangeways fan, and this song is the peak imo. Great memories also of hearing it live during Morrissey's '97 concert, along with Shoplifters.

I wouldn't really say that Moz wanders around in different keys, at least not on studio recordings

I'd also say that unless you are talking about the poetic use of meter rather than the musical use, he absolutely 100% sticks to meter on every single song I can think of at the moment (although I invite someone to post something where he is doing, for example, a cross-meter 3 relationship against the foundation that the musical arrangement is giving him)

yeah I'm referring to poetic meter - the way his lines don't conform to standard patterns of syllables-per-line, that kind of thing

I just last night watched a thing on Youtube about his solo career and pretty much every one of those collaborators expressed surprise at how he mapped out his lyrics over the musical structures they submitted too. Bless.

on a lot of the strangeways songs his parts are so meandering and loose, it doesn't go against the musical meter but it doesn't really fit either

In Morrissey's recent (by recent, I mean last 20 years I guess) solo stuff he's really got to grips with regular meter and more conventional melodies, and that's partly why a lot of it sounds so dull. His songs almost always follow a straight verse-chorus-verse-chorus pattern, to their detriment.

I've often though that Morrissey approaches his melodies like someone who doesn't know which part was intended to be the verse, the chorus etc. To this day I'm sure that the Marr didn't actually write the verse part of 'The Headmaster Ritual' as the verse.

*thought

I would like to hug the person who voted Last Night #1. It was my #2. It really holds up ... the production is beautiful.

― sarahell, Friday, March 4, 2016 12:33 PM (56 minutes ago)

C'est moi.

I guess Smiths fans would know, but did Marr ever do scratch vocals for demos of his songs before Morrissey got his hands on them. I'd be fascinated to hear something like that.

I've often though that Morrissey approaches his melodies like someone who doesn't know which part was intended to be the verse, the chorus etc.

i'm sure i read somewhere that this is exactly what sometimes happened. marr would give him song sketches and morrissey would put words in all the "wrong" places.

marr would give him song sketches and morrissey would put words in all the "wrong" places

see also: rem (at least sometimes)

Ha, I hadn't actually listened to "Strangeways" in many years. (It was not my favourite but I love "Paint a Vulgar Picture" and like "Stop Me"). I tried listening to "Death of a Disco Dancer" and "Death at One's Elbow", two that never really stuck with me, and I totally see what you guys are saying about the even more pronounced disconnect between the vocals and instrumental music.

(Ha, "Unhappy Birthday".)

"Unhappy Birthday" may be one of the most embarrassing songs ever recorded by a good band

It's not one of Morrissey's finest lyrics, I'll say that much.

http://i.imgur.com/7vuOgs9.jpg

34. WELL I WONDER (B-side of 'How Soon Is Now?' | Album track from Meat Is Murder)
402 points | 18 votes | 1 first place vote

I mean, you have that meandering quality in "Vulgar Picture" too. I guess that one just works for me.

Gorgeous. My #3

I originally complied a list of my top 25 songs. Then I found out only 20 were needed, so I had to cut. This is one that got cut. I love it, though. Still-awake-at-4am music.

"Well I Wonder" never seems to linger long in my mind. Sounds great right now though. I really like "please keep me in mind". Such a modest request.

"Please keep me in mind" turns into 'i don't mind if you forget me' a few years later.

"well i wonder" is the best and i voted for it, probably a great example of morrissey putting the words in the wrong places

gasping, but somehow still alive

"I Don't Mind If You Forget Me" better imo

Love the sounds of a grey dawn downpour at the end.

All solid gold from here to no. 1

http://i.imgur.com/gBVWiSO.jpg

33. SWEET AND TENDER HOOLIGAN (B-side of 'Sheila Take a Bow' 12")
415 points | 20 votes

TOO LOW

Not solid gold, imo

best line he ever wrote:

ET CETERA ET CETERA

not a favourite of mine, though i do often sing it to my cat

The dancefloor at my local indie disco used to go nuts to this, though iirc. me included.

in the midst of life we are in death etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

"Et-cet-traaaaaa... "

I don't have an awful lot to say about 'Well I Wonder', which has always been a neither-here-nor-there track for me (nice guitar sound, though) but 'Sweet and Tender Hooligan' is fucking awesome.

ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERAAAAAAAAAA ET CETERA ET CETERA

TOO LOW

― i like to trump and i am crazy (DJP), Friday, March 4, 2016 1:23 PM (11 minutes ago)

Turrican OTM about both! The intro to "Hooligan" always reminded me of Slash in a weird way.

(A very weird way, considering it was probably released earlier than anything by GnR.)

is the peel session version of this on Louder Than Bombs the only version of this that they recorded? I've never really understood exactly what recording a session for the peel showe entailed, did bands just go into a bbc studio and record it 'as live' in one take?

"et cetera et cetera" bit probably bitten from the fade of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQBCuxKDnmA

did bands just go into a bbc studio and record it 'as live' in one take?

No! Well, somebody might have but usually it was recorded as per any other recording session - multiple takes, overdubs etc - but with just one day to do it. I've heard of some bands using pre-recorded material but I imagine that was discouraged.

yeah loads of Peel Sessions stuff v clearly has overdubs, studio editing etc.

I always thought of Peel Sessions as a concerted counter to the miming of TotP. Oh, you have bands pretend to perform? Well, we have bands come in and rerecord their songs.

tbf sometimes bands do entirely new songs

Generally speaking it was a bit frowned upon to do stuff that you'd already recorded and released, unless you were radically re-arranging the material.

man, what a huge fucking loss with John Peel twelve years ago. Only 65. ridiculous

On TOTP you were apparently sent into the studio to re-record your track due to some silly BBC rule, but nobody ever did.

SATH was only ever a BBC session yeah.

highly entertaining how-Peel-sessions-are-made mini-doc here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfwf6JuwYDw

http://i.imgur.com/qzeeukd.jpg

32. HANDSOME DEVIL (B-side of 'Hand In Glove')
434 points | 21 votes | 1 first place vote

My no. 1, mainly for that fucking riff.

On TOTP you were apparently sent into the studio to re-record your track due to some silly BBC rule, but nobody ever did.

Not true, btw, a lot was re-recorded, often pretty ineptly.

I don't even know this song...?

xxp: One thing I've always wondered: are the various other 'sessions' made for other slots over the years (Jensen, Long, etc) generally made with much the same expectations and resources, etc?

#32: way, way, too low. Wow.

i voted for "handsome devil" bc i don't think i'll ever get "let me get my hands / on your mammary glands" out of my head

way too low incidentally

I don't even know this song...?

― Οὖτις, Friday, March 4, 2016

hands on mammary glands, Moz pretending to be horny, etc

I don't even know this song...?

what on earth

tune, obv. "I say, I say, I say-y-y-ay"

Moz sings like a person who has never seen and has no interest in mammary glands.

that's 100 percent the appeal

a boy in the bush is worth two in the hand

people who were bottle fed sing differently?

there's more to life than books you know
but not much more!

first one that I have thought was too low. a classic, and not particularly obscure track - it's on hatful of hollow isn't it?

mammary glands and there's more to life than books you know classic Morrissey!

I've never owned Hatful of Hollow what can I say, it didn't look interesting

xp

there's more to life than books you know
but not much more!

― HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson)

otm

I've never owned Hatful of Hollow what can I say-a-ayyyay

and not particularly obscure track

it's a b-side that only appears on one compilation afaict

er wait was it even a b-side? Hatful wiki says it's just a peel session

i suppose im being solipsistic because hatful of hollow is the compilation for me, and probably my most played smiths release

"et cetera et cetera" bit probably bitten from the fade of this?

thank you everything for the jackie lee link. that song deserves a thread of its own.

One thing I've always wondered: are the various other 'sessions' made for other slots over the years (Jensen, Long, etc) generally made with much the same expectations and resources, etc?

Yes.

The placing of this one feels about right.

Catching up on this thing...randomly.

1. Early Smiths >>>>>>>> later Smiths (86-87).

2. I'm not sure why anyone would think the child's spite in "Suffer Little Children" is aimed at the parents. It always seemed obvious that it was aimed at Hindley/Brady, and possibly society at large for seeming to "forget" these children - leaving them on the moor.

3. I was the other #1 vote for "These Things Take Time." "Frankly, Mr. Shankly" is better than this song?!?! I fucking think not.

4. Funk may often be repetitive, but it usually interestingly. After about 3 minutes, "Barbarism" is not.

5. Not liking "Shakespeare's Sister" is bordering on disease.

6. So tired of people blathering on about so-called superior HOH versions. (All Morrissey's fault, TBF, because he was jealous of Marr's relationship with John Porter - see also the Steve Lillywhite remix of "Ask.")

7. "Reel Around the Fountain" is a perfect way to open the debut album.

8. It's "In the midst of life we are in DEBT." Lesser Smiths.

9. "Handsome Devil!!!" Yay!

There are two released versions of "Handsome Devil"--the Peel version on Hatful, and a concert version (the actual b-side recording) which finally landed on the deluxe The Sound of...

er wait was it even a b-side? Hatful wiki says it's just a peel session

it was a live recording of handsome devil on that b-side.

xp

8. It's "In the midst of life we are in DEBT." Lesser Smiths.

Both versions are printed in the liner notes.

1. Early Smiths >>>>>>>> later Smiths (86-87).

ugh no

(xxxp) Thanks Tom D!

Both versions are printed in the liner notes.

media vita in morte sumus

Yeah later Smiths >>>>>>>> early.

Bit harsh on a couple of points, Kent Burt, but otm

Debating early vs. late re:a band that was only together for like 4 years.

Both versions are printed in the liner notes.

Not on the LP of LTB.

there are some interesting contemporary articles here dealing with the fallout after the Sun claimed that 'Handsome Devil' was about paedophilia

http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/websites/index2.php?username=thesmithsfile&page=4

Debating early vs. late re:a band that was only together for like 4 years.

Clear dip in quality starting with "Ask."

'Ask' rules.

KB really throwin down some gauntlets here

idk how anyone could really say the first album is their best, that's just nuts. peak period is the middle imo!

Actually, the dip started with TQID, but markedly so with "Ask" & its wretched b-side.

.... what

Frankly Mr. Shankly, NHNE, VIAT...subpar Smiths.

"ask" of course just precedes "shoplifters of the world unite"/"half a person" which i could build an argument for as the greatest smiths single

Calling It: Kent Burt is a sock for a bucktoothed girl from Luxembourg.

"Half a Person" to me is where Moz dips into self-parody - the type of stuff people expect mopey old Moz to write. Same with "Unloveable." I do like SOTWU a lot.

lol Grisso

"Half a Person" was my no. 2

When it comes to sub-par Smiths, my vote goes to 'Happy Hour'

xp. my no. 3

I had no idea such a degree of antipathy towards early Smiths was even possible before recent days. Take your pick of whichever recordings you prefer from the first two years or so. That's a secondary issue for me. But it has always seemed self-evident that's where the best stuff lies!

Half a person my #1, xpost.

The Smiths best stuff was in 1985-1986, IMO. Or the "middle years" as Shakey pointed out.

the smiths best period was definitely on the edge between their early and middle years, though there's a case for their mid-late material as well, and i wouldn't second guess anyone who vouched for just their early stuff or late stuff on its own

That opening-of-the floodgates first batch of Morrissey songs are so incredible, though. So felt. Much better than the '80s music hall stuff of tQiD, imo

DavidM, you're my kind of people.

no later period Smiths album features anything as awful as that off-pitch keening "I NEED ADVICE I NEED ADVICE I NEED ADVIIIIICE" blech

But one them does feature "Girlfriend in a Coma".

in general, i cannot stand his falsetto. some songs are so good that they manage to distract from it, though

"Girlfriend in a Coma"

a fantastic single that would improve any album by its inclusion

Which, tellingly, has yet to place and still possibly may.

that off-pitch keening "I NEED ADVICE I NEED ADVICE I NEED ADVIIIIICE" blech

that is one of my favorite Smiths attributes

Yeah, I have a soft spot for Moz's falsetto shrieking and his yodeling. He kind of dropped them from his repertoire as time went on, and I missed them in a way.

after 7 years on ilx, i'm rarely surprised how much other posters' tastes differ from mine

I don't listen to the Smiths to hear someone sing on pitch. It was always fun playing the first album at my old record store - people always looked horrified when it got to that part of "Miserable Lie."

The nicest thing I can say about "Girlfriend in a Coma" is it makes "Frankly, Mr. Shankly" sound genius in comparison.

Thing is, I can't even pretend to be as dismissive of the late stuff as a whole bunch of you are about selected earlier songs. The magnitude of the disdain is truly unexpected.

what, did you not see the noms thread

http://i.imgur.com/GTqjr02.jpg

31. LONDON (B-side of 'Shoplifters Of The World Unite' 12")
450 points | 22 votes

I don't listen to the Smiths to hear someone sing on pitch

me neither, but i also don't listen to them in order to hear someone sing off-pitch, so i avoid Miserable Lie. i hear the "i need advice" part as by far the worst thing they ever did, and sometimes use it as shorthand for "this is awful"

the rest of the song is actually pretty sweet though

too low

absolutely nuts guitar on this

if we're talking about Smiths we dislike, I always thought that The Boy With The Thorn In His Side was one of the worst things they ever did and that the Bis cover is much better, I know this sounds like challops but I don't care

Is that the last one for today?

that off-pitch keening "I NEED ADVICE I NEED ADVICE I NEED ADVIIIIICE" blech

Wah! That bit's brilliant!

"London" has become a firm favourite of mine over time. "Train, heave on to Euston." I've been on such a train, leaving the past behind, or attempting to, at various points in my life.

range of opinions here rivals XTC fandom

Yes that's it for tonight. Sleep well.

Good. I'm tired and I... I want to go to bed.

Oh God, "Miserable Lie" is so embarrassing.

"London" is a latter-day Smiths song I like a lot. Top 10 for me. Love the live version on Rank.

Catching up here... 'London' is great although I didn't vote for it - love the instrumental coda. Not a fan of 'Sweet and Tender Hooligan' at all, the lyrics are a bit Daily Mail and it's not a great tune. 'Well I Wonder' was #3 or 4 on my ballot, when I got around to hearing Meat Is Murder that was the real standout, just a beautiful song.

"London" is totally minor Smiths for me.

Backtracking a bit, "Well I Wonder" is so great. It's maybe the most melodramatic of the great Smiths tearjerkers--even all the soil-falling-over-my-head talk in "I Know It's Over" can't top "gasping, dying, but somehow still alive / this is the fierce last stand of all I am". But somehow following a line like that with a meek, modest "please keep me in mind" makes it work. And as cheap a trick as it is, I love when the rainfall comes in for the outro.

3. I was the other #1 vote for "These Things Take Time." "Frankly, Mr. Shankly" is better than this song?!?! I fucking think not.

― lingereffect (Kent Burt), Friday, March 4, 2016 2:54 PM

lol i thought the exact same thing

Really thought (or hoped) "Paint a Vulgar Picture" would be one of those surprise songs that vaulted into the top ten. There was a bit of enthusiasm for it in the noms thread. Was my #2, it's a remarkable song.

Both London and Handsome Devil are way too low

I wish there were 15 songs that sounded like "London."

OH SHIT... just realized due to clerical error "that joke isn't funny anymore" is not on the ballot I sent in. counting on y'all to bring it in top 10...

Hooligan nearly ruined for me by Moz singing "ex cetera" instead of "et". But not enough to keep it off my ballot.

"London" is totally minor Smiths for me.

Word. It may even be the only track that I can't immediately bring to mind without an auditory cue. The lyrics are quite good though. I feel like I've said that in relation to other tracks already. In general, Morrissey's lyrics probably didn't match the gentle decline in interestingness/consistency that Marr's tunes/production choices displayed. (Maybe. I should really subject this theory to more rigorous testing before typing it on the interwebs...)

Collaborative Spotify playlist here https://open.spotify.com/user/jona-uh/playlist/48hb3M4vKm8Ts2V23jOrAF

Reading the Goddard book and apparently Well I Wonder is the only song from their first three studio albums that they never played live.

Oh yeah I bought the Goddard book the other day, still haven't started reading it yet...

without that nimble baseline that runs throughout the whole track... and to think they fired the guy at one point!

can't believe they'd fire the nimble bassplayer for later being incapable of playing bass!

also thanks to whoever mentioned that live version of Giant, because dancing Johnny is adorable there

a friend had a beat up old VW Rabbit with blown-out speakers that played pure treble with Meat Is Murder stuck in the tape deck & as a result I think "Rusholme Ruffians" is the essence of the Smiths. I didn't vote for it.

Hooligan nearly ruined for me by Moz singing "ex cetera" instead of "et".

If it's mocking the person lazily dropping that line it could be in keeping with that. He's laughing at this bathetic half-assed gesture at profundity. Something like that.

^ way to kill a joke, Noel.

I do get the impression he read that as a quote and found it almost literally hysterical.

I finished the Goddard book yesterday. This is an excellent time to read it! It really is well done and researched, highly recommended. "A Light That Never Goes Out: The Enduring Saga of the Smiths" by Tony Fletcher might be a better narrative read (I haven't read it yet), but this is perfect to read along with the poll -- either front to back or read the entry for each song as it comes up in the poll.

That sounds like a cue to start today's rundown.

http://i.imgur.com/RyYL6lw.jpg

30. ASLEEP (B-side of 'The Boy with the Thorn in His Side')
488 points | 23 votes

I'm going to go down to no. 16 today and finish it off tomorrow.

too low!

This was the last song I cut off my list. Happy to see it place.

Kicking myself for leaving "London" off. Should've been in my top 10.

I suspect the cries of "TOO LOW" are going to increase a fuckload from this point on.

http://i.imgur.com/YHYL8P3.jpg

29. GIRLFRIEND IN A COMA (Single A-side | Album track from Strangeways, Here We Come)
496 points | 25 votes

Too high

Aw, it's a pretty tune. This is about the right placement imo.

This is kind of their Left Banke song.

Hahaha! Funnily enough, I agree... there's a fair few tracks that have already placed that I prefer over this. I don't mind it, of course, but I think that there have been superior songs that have placed below it.

I love the feeling of the chorus in Girlfriend in a Coma, and voted for it. It's effortlessly catchy but no way is it better than Asleep.

In terms of tracks from this album, it's probably mid-table for me, below 'Death of a Disco Dancer' and 'Stop Me...' etc.

It ended up being the highest I put anything from Strangeways, which surprised me. Listening to it again I didn't find the atmosphere of Last Night I Dreamt or Death of a Disco Dancer as engaging as I'd thought, though I voted for those as well.

This was the last song I cut off my list. Happy to see it place.

― Kitchen Person, Saturday, 5 March 2016 15:20 (42 minutes ago) Permalink

Asleep was mine too. Great song, but I can't vote for a Smiths song without guitar

http://i.imgur.com/Unihgk2.jpg

28. RUBBER RING (B-side of 'The Boy with the Thorn in His Side' 12")
549 points | 26 votes | 1 first place vote

Great song

Asleep is generic Smiths to me. Well I Wonder is prettier.

One of their best. Book mentions shared tempo with "Green Onions," then a shift in key and a more disjointed, Chic influenced funk and wraithlike strings.

Among the most original and emotionally potent tracks of their career, the title was Morrissey's metaphor for The Smiths' repertoire, as perceived by their most ardent admirers who were emotionally dependent on his every word...

..his ruthless rebuke 'hear my voice in your head and think of me kindly' assumes an unsettlingly spectral timbre; a haunting reprimand from the other side. Morrissey's own voice from the dead is echoed in the sample culled from an obscure EP originally distributed with Dr Konstantin Raudive's 1971 book Breakthrough: An Amazing Experiment In Electronic Communication With The Dead...

On the 12 inch, this was blended together with "Asleep." It's too bad these and some of the other singles weren't included on TQID.

whoever gave "rubber ring" a first place vote: i like your ideas

You are sleeping, you do not want to believe, you are sleeping

this poll makes me feel so basic, i really went with the classics. great to discover new songs!

'Rubber Ring' was in my top five. Absolutely top stuff.

For an essay written for my college freshman comp course, I cited the lyric in "Rubber Ring" about the pop scene to decry '90s radio. I had particular distaste for "Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough."

My #1!

Only Morrissey could self-mythologize like this. "I'm a god to melodramatic teenagers, but lots of melodramatic teenagers grow up/become well-adjusted. HOW DARE THE INGRATES." The voice kind of reminds me of some of Shakespeare's sonnets—the poet saying "you are only redeemed by ME, so credit where it's due."

Otm; it's probably my favorite self-conscious address to the the listener in the Smiths' discography because its self-memorializing is so ridiculously grandiose, even by Morrissey's standards.

Also god that double-stop in the bass in the verse. And the guitar line under the chorus. And the fact that the chorus "hook" is just Morrissey mumbling nonsense syllables. What a song.

the strings!

or is it a single cello? I haven't heard it in ages.

http://i.imgur.com/vcNh8XU.jpg

27. YOU JUST HAVEN'T EARNED IT YET, BABY (Album track from The World Won't Listen)
567 points | 23 votes | 3 first place votes

if you're wondering why...

my #1 -- the peak of '80s jangle.

Btw, the illustration here for "Girlfriend in a Coma" is perfect.

Love "Rubber Ring" - an insecure Morrissey projecting into a future where his fanbase has outgrown his bedsit miserablism; "I'm holding the torch in the corner of your room - Can you hear me?!"

When "You Just Haven't Earned It Yet Baby" got some discussion in the nominations thread, I listened to it and kind of scoffed at the idea that someone would rate it that highly. I just listened to it again, more closely this time, and you know what, it is pretty great. For some reason it never made a strong impression before now.

This one and London still sound great decades later. Or rather, they sound better to me than some of the songs that I loved as a teen/early 20-something largely for lyrical content and affect.

TOO LOW! (My #2)

http://i.imgur.com/z7eSPTV.jpg

26. GIRL AFRAID (B-side of 'Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now' 12")
581 points | 25 votes | 3 first place votes

For all the naysayers, the "Girl Afraid" intro pretty much demonstrates Marr's virtuosity. And for anyone that would use a lesser word, congratulations, you, too, must be a virtuoso.

BTW, this poll has sent me back to some bootlegs and man, dysfunctional or no, the band was super tight at the end of its run. You'd think a lot of these songs would be tough to play live, and maybe they were, but they all sound great.

I'm loving how many B-sides/non-LP tracks we're getting in a row here!

As I've said before, Marr has created some wonderful guitar work over the years, but I certainly wouldn't describe him as a virtuoso.

barbarism begins on ILM

does it really matter in terms of everyone here's discovery/experience of the band whether a song was a "B-side"? Hatful, Louder than Bombs, and World Won't Listen were widely available comps that I feel like people considered the equivalent of "albums." And The Smiths got next to no American radio play while they were active, so the single vs. b-side/album track distinction wouldn't be meaningful in terms of that aspect of experiencing the band.

^ this

I imagine it may have been a different story depending on where you grew up, but in America there wasn't any real distinction between what was a Smiths album and a Smiths compilation. B-sides are every bit as familiar to me as album cuts, and probably more so because I listened to Louder Than Bombs more than anything else.

xx-post

Honestly, who cares if he's a virtuoso? I have no idea (nor do I care) if a guitar bit requires skill to play or not.

Does it sound good? Most of the time it does, yes.

love rubber ring, one of those songs i just like more and more as time goes by

I got Hatful and World Won't Listen as well, as I was a completist as a teen, though to be honest, I probably listened to the mixtapes I made of my favorite Smiths songs more than any one album or comp.

And The Smiths got next to no American radio play while they were active,

this is not true. i lived in a place called Los Angeles and they have a radio station called KROQ. the Smiths were one of their biggest bands and they played every single and even some album tracks.

several xposts

One edgy station in LA does not equal "American radio play."

No, I don't think it particularly matters. Sure, I don't consider those compilations to be "proper" studio LP's (which they aren't) but I don't have a problem with so many B-sides/non-LP tracks placing - as I said, I'm loving it... it demonstrates the consistency of the bands output.

(many x-posts)

Wish I would've voted for Rubber Ring. If I leave The Smiths for a while and come back, it's one of the songs I never pair with its title all that easily, but it's a brilliant song!

Girl Afraid was my #1, JIC otm regarding Marr's guitar on this track, absolutely stunning

it's one of the songs I never pair with its title all that easily,

yeah, going through the list, that was one of those, "what song is that again?" and at first I'd thought it was an instrumental

B-sides are every bit as familiar to me as album cuts, and probably more so because I listened to Louder Than Bombs more than anything else.

xpost The reason I keep bringing up the virtuoso thing is I think it's key to Marr's compositions. They're so distinctive and original and imo inimitable because he is so remarkably skilled and creative. "Girl Afraid" in particular, no one else would have done that, or anything close to that. Same for many Smiths tracks. Like someone like, I dunno, Robert Fripp, his virtuosity is similarly inextricable from his songwriting. It's more than just "wonderful guitar work." Save that looser complement for John Squire or Bernard Butler or something.

I have to admit, though, I haven't given much thought to how Americans perceived this band. I always assumed they were very much a cult concern over there at the time, far more so than here.

sarahell OTM about the compilations. Although quite a lot of the b-sides from around TQID and beyond are somehow discernably b-side-like, in a way that doesn't apply with the earlier singles. (Aside from perhaps "Wonderful Woman", which sounds exactly like a b-side.) "Rubber Ring" is the only one of the last few tracks that was close to being a contender for me.

xpost:

I wouldn't consider John Squire or Bernard Butler to be virtuosos either, fwiw.

absolutely. Not sure how many of the poll voters are Americans, but I'd guess a significant amount.

(that was an xp to Turrers)

my #1 -- the peak of '80s jangle.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:38 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it was my no. 1 too!!!

I wouldn't consider John Squire or Bernard Butler to be virtuosos either, fwiw

Well, no, exactly. They're just "wonderful guitar work" guys. Marr is much more than that. He doesn't sound like he's copying anyone, and I've never heard anyone copy him. It's indebted to everything from Brit folk-rock to Chic, but it rarely even explicitly echoes that stuff, as much as Marr I'm sure can mentally catalog every last lick he's copped.

http://i.imgur.com/LIsCYOM.jpg

25. SHOPLIFTERS OF THE WORLD UNITE (Single A-side)
588 points | 27 votes | 1 first place vote

It all clicked when I found out one of Marr's biggest guitar heroes was James Honeyman-Scott of Pretenders, because you definitely hear his stamp all over Marr's playing.

Morrissey sounds so damn confident on this one.

my #1 -- the peak of '80s jangle.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, March 5, 2016 11:38 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it was my no. 1 too!!!

― HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson

you handsome deviil

Shoplifters is the closest they ever got to a metal track, complete with Maiden-esque dual guitar lead

I've never really enjoyed 'Shoplifters Of The World Unite', one of their least essential singles for me, although Morrissey himself apparently considers it to be one of their finest moments.

Alabaster crashes down

"Girl Afraid" was my #1 pick. I could have gone with one of several in the top spot, tho

To be quite honest, I vastly prefer 'You Just Haven't Earned It Yet, Baby', which was supposed to be the single originally.

"shoplifters" is absolutely one of their finest moments

It's better than 'Shakespeare's Sister', I'll give it that.

I've never really enjoyed 'Shoplifters Of The World Unite', one of their least essential singles for me, although Morrissey himself apparently considers it to be one of their finest moments.

(Turrican)

Completely agree with this. Never understood the appeal.

It and "Paint a Vulgar Picture" the only Smiths tunes Moz performed when I saw him in late '97.

Turrican OTM. "YJHEITB" is the closest to an exception to my "b-sides sounding like b-sides" jibber-jabber. Unsurprising that it almost WAS the a-side.

Love the instrumental version of this one

oh someone said upthread that they sing "sweet and tender hooligan" to their cat; i sing "shoplifters" to my cats i.e. "soft kittens of the world / unite and take over"

Don't encourage them!

i almost voted for girlfriend in a coma because of the ilx thread with the "midget with a pamphlet" bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slOzvTTgMNM

Why did I watch that whole video?

http://i.imgur.com/e48InJH.jpg

24. SHEILA TAKE A BOW (Single A-side)
640 points | 31 votes | 1 first place vote

I first saw that video after I saw the Vice online guitar interview with Johnny Marr. Marr says that the Shoplifters solo was mostly him saying to hell with it, I am going to do a total hard rock guitar solo. And then he felt vindicated when years later he saw that video of the guy head banging to it.

'Sheila Take a Bow' has always had its critics, but I've always really liked it.

he felt vindicated when years later he saw that video of the guy head banging to it.

Ha! Okay, that makes me like it a little more now.

I didn't vote in the poll but Sheila would have been top three for me.

Great song.

Boot the grime of this world in the crotch, dear

Tracey Thorn stole the "I'm a girl and you're a boy" gender flip for "Protection."

Sheila just barely missed my ballot, kind of regret leaving it off now

It just snuck in on mine. My seven year old daughter loves it

"Learn to love me," eh?

"Sheila Take a Bow" is a pure endorphin rush for me

http://i.imgur.com/B4xmySA.jpg

23. SOME GIRLS ARE BIGGER THAN OTHERS (Album track from The Queen Is Dead)
648 points | 28 votes | 4 first place votes

A goodly number of first place votes!

"I wrote this almost sublime, roaming, guitar-led piece of music once, and the next thing I knew it was called 'Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others'." —Johnny Marr

TOO LOW!

Like, I seriously expected this one to be easily in the Top 10. Surprised to see this placing now!

For his part, Moz sings beautifully on this.

xp I guess once you've heard the Gaz Coombes cover version the original pales somewhat in comparison.

girl afraid was my number 1 as well. it has such a pleasing composition

Oh yeah, Supergrass covered it. I'd forgotten about that.

Should have been an instrumental.

DavidM OTM, it's a lovely vocal.

'Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others' was the first song I ever played on the Infinite Jukebox.

"As Anthony said to Cleopatra, as he opened a crate of ale..."

I dig how the verses are little more than a bridge to the chorus. (Or he just kept quiet where the verses were 'meant' to be.)

I wonder how serious Marr is being when he suggests that he was nonplussed with Morrissey's choice of lyric for this one. actually, it makes me curious about how their singwritng relationship worked; could he have insisted that Morrissey go away and write some different words, or insist that the song be done as an instrumental, or would Morrissey have had the final say?

I think that the lyrics and the sinister, ominous music go together really well, though - obviously it's this Carry On style double entendre (the 'as Antony said to Cleopatra' bit is direcetly from Carry On Cleo), but the humour in the Carry On movies is pretty grim and ugly most of the time. the "I have just discovered" bit makes me think of it as being about some kind of sexual awakening like the song it follows , 'There Is A Light That Never Goes Out', but the ugly side of banal, inescapable (hetero)sexuality. (and if 'There Is A Light' is all about anticipation and expectation, like 'Stretch Out And Wait, then 'Some Girls' seems like an aftermath, disillusion)?

it's so perfectly placed as this spooky closer on TQiD as well, makes me think of Morrissey lying on his pillow through the night, drifting in and out of consciousness