XXXTentacion - ?

Some discussion of him on the mumble rap 2017 thread but now that we’re about to see him break into the mainstream he deserves his own thread.

Album got dropped on spotify one week ago and its songs are creeping all the global and viral charts. Billboard is still not acknowledging the streams but it’s safe to say Sad will take the singles charts and the album will take the top 200 in the following weeks.

So, what say you ILM? Worthy of the insane hype?

ffs

fuck this scumbag abuser forever
https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/xxxtentacions-reported-victim-details-grim-pattern-of-abuse-in-testimony/

^^^^

this is gonna be a great thread

many of my students are all into this guy and claim he’s been framed

fuck this guy

https://t.co/ovjuQN8weO listen to this album if you feel anything. raw thoughts. https://t.co/ovjuQN8weO

— Kendrick Lamar (@kendricklamar) August 26, 2017

5th listen.

— Kendrick Lamar (@kendricklamar) August 26, 2017

love this, Apple Music:

Perhaps the most controversial and polarizing rapper to transition from internet fame to the mainstream spotlight

Ah, it's the music that's controversial and polarizing, got it

it’s good music but cmon

i know the he-was-framed!! narrative is popular among teens but i can't stop myself from questioning how sincerely they believe that

seems inevitable that "sad!" will become his first radio hit

it is beyond messed up that so many on-the-cusp young rappers only seem to make the jump into the spotlight after allegations of horrific crimes are leveled against them, like what is exactly going on that so reliably seems to make that happen? am i just imagining it? can it be reduced to a social media phenom?

septuagenarian radio host touches a woman's bare back = "Die, dinosaur, die!"

rapper punches, headbutts, chokes, kicks, stomps, assaults woman with coat hangers, threatens to ram utensils into her vagina and cut out her tongue = "he was framed!"

cool, got it

way to go, kids

i dont think thats it exactly, it happened to i.e. nba youngboy ages after he was signed and popping, kodak too

i think w/ like tay k & xxx its just a matter of newspapers operating as inexpensive PR. If you're poor and a label isnt investing in you, news stories are a way to get your name out w/out having to have Roc Nation level resources. im not saying they're doing it intentionally, but that's why it happens that way

"Sad!" is going to be massive. what's pretty fucked up w/ xxx is he doesn't let you 'separate art from artist' even if you wanted to like that song is totally abuser logic

xp obv

who tf is paul ponzi

he's a schemer

hes a dreamer

hes a midniiight smooooker

"Sad!" is going to be massive. what's pretty fucked up w/ xxx is he doesn't let you 'separate art from artist' even if you wanted to like that song is totally abuser logic

definitely

Yep. And that’s why I won’t give him a pass even though a couple of the tracks on his new album are actually pretty good.

X suckerpunching a woman:

https://instagram.com/p/Bgw2FqchPvf/

So this is they asshole that the new generations are hyping up this year? Good job fucktards.

fuck, ‘Sad!’ is really good... ughhh

i don't blame teenagers for being fans of his... the value systems of most teenagers are fucked up, it's hard to grasp the real life consequences of actions such as domestic abuse, liking shit that makes adults mad is fun, etc. anyway, i think a large part of his popularity is in the "authenticity" he brings and how that is wrapped up in his music, certainly kids get off on the dangerousness of his persona and the way that is heightened by the outsized life-or-death melodrama of his songs. it's a magnetic character and he's good at what he does, which is to be insanely fucked up in pretty much every regard... not only can't you "separate the art from the artist" but the art and the artist are connected together in a loop that makes both exponentially powerful (clearly)

^ otm

i do find a certain honesty in his music that makes it slightly easier for me to digest compared to like i.e. kodak black whose persona really curdled in the last 18 months in a way that i found to be defiant and pathetic and really turned me off of his music. (very similar to chris brown in that regard.) x doesn't admit to being a serial violent abuser so i'm not trying to cast him in a positive light or anything but his music at least doesn't try and convince you that he's anything but an incredibly fucked up person. this ties back to my argument about teens picking up on his "authenticity" even if that "authenticity" makes any reasonable adult recoil

So PWR BTTM might still have a career if only they'd worked a little harder at convincing us in their music that they were "authentically" incredibly fucked up people

lol ok

also this song is terrible, what are you guys even talking about

ah yes as if we haven't talked about the specific circumstances of the pwr bttm situation and the queer community's vigilance to death already. what is context

also yes that was what their music was all about

who tf is paul ponzi

https://1109487268.rsc.cdn77.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Tyrannochromis_Nigriventer3.jpg

I don't remember any posters named cichlid.

who tf is paul ponzi

while usually I think the policing of who's who is cliquey bullshit this seems like a valid q on this thread

Hi - I'm Paul. I mostly post about electronic music and forgotten 90s indie rock and rap. I'm a fledgling DJ, occasional clickworker, and work in a boring office. I use ILX because I increasingly hate / am afraid of Facebook. I think XXXTentacion, based on his history of abuse, is someone we should ignore. Nice to meet you.

So glad you're here to post five times about how we should "ignore" someone with no radio play or record label or real media interviews or television appearances

errr

https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/8260857/xxxtentacion-debuts-at-no-1-on-billboard-200-albums-chart

eh Whiney. he's on rap caviar & he's 64th in the world for monthly listeners. you seem to be saying he's obscure, that's not really fair to say I don't think.

A new Bon Jovi album was number one three weeks ago

it bumped iirc

but a bit weird that this thread has suddenly become about me for some reason, so I'm going back to lurking the rolling and bobbins threads. My bad, enjoy your XXXTentacion

Also, XXX isn't "obscure" by any means, but my tweets about 6ix9ine stands here, I think:

Not denying his wild popularity among teens on SoundCloud but actually it’s ... remarkably easy ... for anyone to ignore an artist with zero radio play, no record label, no publicist, no media features...

6ix9ine involves active engagement and buying into an outlier model. Calling him impossible to ignore is like calling Insane Clown Posse or Jake Paul or Jomny Sum or Pomplamoose or toy unboxing videos “impossible to ignore”

Par for the course when face tats are involved.

xp

also this song is terrible, what are you guys even talking about

― Paul Ponzi, Monday, March 26, 2018 6:29 AM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It’s terrible morally but you have to be willfully oblivious to think it’s not well executed version of what it is...I understand the urgency to marginalize this & am fine w it (believe in it) but I think anyone you’re trying to convince who’s heard this music & found something attractive about it is going to recognize the cynicism on display when we try to pretend this stuff isn’t ... not just musically effective,but stands out in its milieu (for reasons tied up in shit that is fundamentally fucked)

Agreeing that it’s compelling at some level is imo essential if you’re interested in pointing out that it’s evil & dangerous (in fact id contend it’s this “danger” we minimize when we try & argue it’s “not even good”)

music like this makes me realize there is really no imperative for me to listen to all the “good” music out there

otm i mean if this is supposed to be "good" ok sure if you say so .

I agree that 'Sad!' is compelling. The other couple of tracks from ? I just listened to brought home – a bit too conspicuously – why he lists Coldplay and Papa Roach among his influences.

you have to be willfully oblivious to think it’s not well executed version of what it is

Nah, this song is shit. And I say that as someone who has heard over a dozen Jandek albums. I say that as someone who has reviewed scores of nü-metal albums, and interviewed nü-metal bands. I've listened to dumb teenage shit for over 20 years, and this song is nursery-rhyme garbage with a beat that any rando could make in their sleep.

i mean if this is supposed to be "good" ok sure if you say so

This is music for teenagers - people who haven't heard enough music to be able to judge what's good or bad. They only know what they like. The real cynics are people like Jon Caramanica who have heard more than enough music in their lifetimes to recognize this as vapid garbage from a not-particularly-intelligent teenager and still cheerlead for it in the pages of the New York Times.

This guy's former manager is a creep too

https://pitchfork.com/news/no-jumper-podcastlabel-founder-adam-grandmaison-accused-of-rape-responds/

Nah, this song is shit. And I say that as someone who has heard over a dozen Jandek albums.

.... well in that case

decent board description

This is music for teenagers - people who haven't heard enough music to be able to judge what's good or bad. They only know what they like

this is otm to me . not to discount teenage taste in music completely but along with some good stuff i was very much into some crappy music that was popular among my friends and looking back was just shit.

this is gonna be a great thread

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Saturday, March 24, 2018 1:05 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Teenagers have the best taste.

Eh, lyrics aside, 'Sad!' strikes me as a bit more interesting than that. Can't vouch for his other stuff but the melody here is a suitably achey ear-worm, the booming kicks are effective throughout and the almost cimbalom-like synth introduced in the second half of the song gives it more replay value than the average contemporary pop track.

I could see “i dont even speak spanish” being a moderate hit in latinamerica if pushed.

Which is btw a weird song in this album... uncredited features and XXXtentacion is only there for a verse in the song and doesn’t sound like anything else in the album.

I like that song BUT the title makes me hate him more than ever.

As if you needed more reasons to hate this scumbag

will grown-ups ever grow out of insisting that teenagers have the best taste, it's such a weird and frankly pervy look

I mean it's gross to completely discount the opinions & experience of the young don't get me wrong, this is not me saying "teenagers have the worst taste!" either but

if you're jocking for "teenagers! their taste is the best!" after thirty

idk man that's a bizarre fucking look. I know d-40 might feel targeted by this post but please trust it's not just about you, this has been a systemic problem in pop/rock/rap?? crit since forever, this wordsworth/blake garbage where the zeal of the teen is elevated to some projected ideal critical stance

weird fuckin shit imo

like you don't really see people goin "wacky wafers! this is way better than actually good chocolate!" because guess what your palate develops and you come to understand that your frame of reference, having grown broader, is now actually much more attenuated to nuance & fine points

why do grown-up pop-oriented dudes resist that so strenuously, it's not like you'll be even a day younger by copping this stance nor will any young dudes be fooled

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/10/opinion/sunday/favorite-songs.html

i don't think people's taste in chocolate gets calcified w age though, or that there's a steady evolution of chocolate being offered generationally

all i saw was a short reactive quip about teenagers having the best taste, this doesn't need to be blown up into a thing, at least itt. what makes music compelling to teenagers can be talked about separately from how "good" or "bad" taste correlates w age or w/e, which frankly in this context just seems like a boring convo to me

your palate develops and you come to understand that your frame of reference, having grown broader, is now actually much more attenuated to nuance & fine points...why do grown-up pop-oriented dudes resist that so strenuously, it's not like you'll be even a day younger by copping this stance nor will any young dudes be fooled

This is the part that I'm baffled by too. You can say "I understand why a teenager would like this" without feeling compelled to make the leap to "The teenager is right! This is great!"

Fwiw I don’t feel targeted by that bc it very doesn’t reflect my attitude—see the kitty pryde thread

I do find “incurious revelry” (copyright r|t|c) re the music of teens on ilx specifically a bit frustrating but that’s a difft issue

That doesn’t exactly apply in this case... idk I think Jordan summed up why it makes sense this stuff is popular even as it sucks that it’s popular

It’s not the music that’s terrible in this instance methinks.

I mean, the music embodies terrible but it’s not poorly made

So PWR BTTM might still have a career if only they'd worked a little harder at convincing us in their music that they were "authentically" incredibly fucked up people

lol ok

― Paul Ponzi, Monday, March 26, 2018 7:29 AM (fourteen hours ago) Bookmark

i guess this guy left the thread but aside from the self-policing of queer spaces that got pwr bttm nuked off the planet, the reaction against them was so strong because (assuming the allegations were true) they were revealed to be frauds. hypocrites as people yes but more to the point the music, given what it was about, couldn't help but come off as cynical in a way that my have been really rotten. i dunno if artists whose music touches politics or morality can really "work to convince" people that their art actually represents who they are... pwr bttm tried to do that work just in the opposite direction (working to convince us they were queer heroes) and eventually the lie was found out. for whatever you want to say about xxx's music, it represents that he's a shitty person.

I can’t believe you dignified that with a response

i like to reach the people

I'm sure you guys only did what was necessary but I always feel kind of bad when a person is bullied off a thread

I really don't see why it's so surprising that kids think he was framed, plenty of people did and still do defend Chris Brown. (you can't pin it on teenagers, either, given the legions of grown adults who rush to defend even the worst of the worst people accused in the news)

anyway I haven't listened to this guy's music, it does not seem remotely like my thing even if none of the news existed as a counterbalance, but at a certain point I think ignoring it just becomes counterproductive. it's not like all of his teenage fans are going to disappear because The New York Times (hypothetical example, chosen specifically because they did cover him) nobly did not write an article

at a certain point I think ignoring it just becomes counterproductive

When you say "counterproductive," counterproductive to what? "The discourse"? This is a serious question. Why do you think music critics should pay attention to this particular artist? Why is it OK to ignore all the other stuff that your average busy music writer ignores every single day, but not this?

it's not like all of his teenage fans are going to disappear because The New York Times (hypothetical example, chosen specifically because they did cover him) nobly did not write an article

No, but it's not like anyone who's not a teenager is obliged to care. I feel like literally the only angle the Times should take on this guy is "here's what your kids are listening to; maybe sit them down for a talk."

well if your job is to write about popular music -- which is to say, it's your job to think about/analyze why things are popular and translate that to your audience -- and you choose to ignore someone who might be one of the ~10 most popular artists in the country (ignore not just in what you publish but in your thinking) then i think that can be counterproductive to fulfilling the responsibility of your job. if you view him as part of an ecosystem of artists that you're responsible for covering, then i'm not sure you can just isolate him out and ignore him. the reasons for his popularity certainly have implications for popular music at large. and if popular music is driven in part by what teenagers like, then caring about their tastes is also part of the job too.

if your job isn't to write or care about popular music then sure who cares

maybe sit them down for a talk

lol

well if your job is to write about popular music -- which is to say, it's your job to think about/analyze why things are popular and translate that to your audience -- and you choose to ignore someone who might be one of the ~10 most popular artists in the country

^^^

When you say "counterproductive," counterproductive to what? "The discourse"? This is a serious question. Why do you think music critics should pay attention to this particular artist? Why is it OK to ignore all the other stuff that your average busy music writer ignores every single day, but not this?

The other stuff that your average busy music writer ignores is not being supported by the music industry to the extent that this guy is. Even without getting into covert/secret/unreported label stuff (because it's hard to tell the difference between legit and conspiracy theory), Spotify actively supports him as mentioned above; at one point he had a (reported) $6 million record deal with Capitol; he was on a damn Noah Cyrus song. There is no reason to think that even the most horrifying allegations will stop any of this, given the entertainment industry and fans' long history of not giving a shit unless the fans do. the rest, Jordan said better than I could

in other words, the moral burden of ignoring him (if you think there's a moral burden, not everyone does) rests on the people in the music industry, not the people writing about it

Whiney's right; "it's popular, so we cover it" is a massive cop-out, there's a lot of extremely popular stuff that gets zero analysis / ink / heat even though literally millions of people are spinning it a day. there is more to coverage of this artist than "well, he's popular, so we're covering it" - which popular things get covered is I want to say an...ethical? political? aesthetic? moral? choice -- idk -- but I'm 100% certain "it's popular, so it's what gets the coverage" is flat-out untrue.

(I would also argue that the industry does in fact support other popular stuff that doesn't get the ink. That we're not reading / talking about it doesn't mean it doesn't have its own avenues of support / budget / etc.)

sure, but there's also a reason why everyone posting in this thread is in here having this discussion and not talking about shawn mendes

by which i guess i mean that if critics at large ignore something popular -- like meghan trainor or jason derulo or whatever -- that is arguably a dereliction of duty, but it also just might mean that there really isn't much there to talk about. the artist is popular but that popularity doesn't say anything about music or society. that's a different calculation than arguing that there's a moral imperative to ignore an artist.

I think people are conflating sites that have a curatorial approach to popular music to sites that have a "it's popular so we cover it" mindset

btw personally i don't begrudge any writer on an individual level for ignoring xxxtentacion... editors/writers are being tasked with thinking much harder about how to cover abusers than ever before (and in real time). as an employed editor at a publication i'm not a bystander here, and despite the arguments i'm making itt i'm not going to pretend that i have the "right" answer. that said, i'm not sure i'd say that it's a good thing for there to be such little writing about an artist like xxxtentacion, and for even thinking critically about his music to be considered a moral transgression (talking about ppl's reactions to i.e. pitchfork's review of 17, not this thread)

speaking of the devil

https://pitchfork.com/news/xxxtentacion-appears-to-hit-woman-in-video-footage-prosecutors-reviewing-report/

that said, i'm not sure i'd say that it's a good thing for there to be such little writing about an artist like xxxtentacion, and for even thinking critically about his music to be considered a moral transgression

yeah, like, assuming the "critical thinking" is not "this man is amazing and a great person and everyone should emulate him," the only "moral transgression" argument I can think of is that writing about him boosts his signal. but that bridge was crossed long, long ago, and compared to the legions of teenagers listening to him and the industry support, a blog post or whatever is a drop in the bucket.

I would argue that the fact that you don't think there's anything to talk about with a Meghan Trainor or Jason Derulo record, or that their popularity "doesn't say anything about music or society," means that you need to think harder. You're claiming that mumbly nihilistic teenage bullshit "says something about society" but the music that non-teenagers listen to doesn't, but society is not exclusively made up of teenagers. And I doubt your readership is. (I don't know where you're employed as an editor, sorry.) I would argue that writing about xxxtentacion is, in fact, the lazy choice, and that if you really wanted to spend time seriously analyzing popular culture, you'd analyze it in its uncool/off-trend/selling-but-to-the-"wrong"-people aspects.

"this has been a systemic problem in pop/rock/rap?? crit since forever, this wordsworth/blake garbage where the zeal of the teen is elevated to some projected ideal critical stance"

my perception is that real-time analytics have made this stance a lot more prominent / transparent but i could be projecting

and there's certainly lots to talk about with trainor and derulo wrt the shape-shifting of what attitudes make the "songs you can listen to at the office" cut

society is not exclusively made up of teenagers

ok, but a) neither is xxxtentacion's entire listenership and b) an artist's fanbase being composed primarily of teenagers, in and of itself, does not make that artist not worth coverage.

i def want to be more like the demographic that watches pewdiepie videos, waits around all day outside streetwear stores and jacks off constantly

the assumption that the teenager is the default pop music audience was always around (hi dick clark) but imo it really took hold in the late '90s/early '00s, when britney backstreet pink et al hip-checked celine and her cohort and made room for them in adult contemporary radio. from then on it was all over.

I would argue that the fact that you don't think there's anything to talk about with a Meghan Trainor or Jason Derulo record, or that their popularity "doesn't say anything about music or society," means that you need to think harder. You're claiming that mumbly nihilistic teenage bullshit "says something about society" but the music that non-teenagers listen to doesn't, but society is not exclusively made up of teenagers. And I doubt your readership is. (I don't know where you're employed as an editor, sorry.) I would argue that writing about xxxtentacion is, in fact, the lazy choice, and that if you really wanted to spend time seriously analyzing popular culture, you'd analyze it in its uncool/off-trend/selling-but-to-the-"wrong"-people aspects.

― grawlix (unperson), Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:27 AM (six minutes ago) Bookmark

you're misreading my posts as me endorsing a worldview instead of just thinking out loud. (i wrote a piece about shawn mendes on friday that was partly about how he's essentially uncovered by critics.) i'm saying that when critics at large ignore an artist (and if we're talking about pop artists here, it's usually artists who are popular but not HUGE and just kind of bland w/o any sense of auteurism or innovation) then, collectively, writers are basically saying "there's not much interesting here to talk about." again, i'm not saying that's right -- depending on the artist i might agree, but generally i'd actually say it's wrong (a discussion for another thread is that certain ppl bemoan the poptimist bent of modern music writing when plenty of pop music is actually completely ignored -- i'm just pointing out that it's a different motivation entirely than asking people to consciously opt out of a discussion on a moral level.

there's also the question of what people mean by "coverage." reviews? positive reviews? front-page hagiographic profiles? blog posts about the prosecution? (there's an argument to be made -- plenty of people have made it -- that it's even less defensible, in a parasitic kind of way, not to cover someone's music but to cover his horrifying behavior and ensuing legal issues)

i def want to be more like the demographic that watches pewdiepie videos, waits around all day outside streetwear stores and jacks off constantly

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:35 AM (six minutes ago) Bookmark

you just did a whole interview with juicy j about how the streetwear jacker offers have helped revive one of his most misogynistic songs so i wouldn't pretend as if you're above this

certain ppl bemoan the poptimist bent of modern music writing when plenty of pop music is actually completely ignored

Because deliberately ignoring the highest charting pop songs to talk about lesser known pop songs that could conceivably crack the top 50 or whatever is still trading one form of pop for another, thus confirming, once again, its insuperable hegemony. Like you said, though, it's a discussion for another thread.

probably worth pointing out here that "Sad!" is currently #7 on the Hot 100

An anthropological interest in why certain albums hit #1 and connect (i.e. Greatest Showman) isn't an endorsement, and I though this was clear.

I kinda like the two new Shawn Mendes songs :(

An anthropological interest in why certain albums hit #1 and connect (i.e. Greatest Showman) isn't an endorsement, and I though this was clear.

True on a case-by-case basis. But when a consistent pattern of coverage and non-coverage emerges over the course of years, endorsement (of a particular narrative, if not necessarily specific artists) can be pretty easily inferred.

Because deliberately ignoring the highest charting pop songs to talk about lesser known pop songs that could conceivably crack the top 50 or whatever is still trading one form of pop for another, thus confirming, once again, its insuperable hegemony. Like you said, though, it's a discussion for another thread.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:46 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark

eh it's really about a perversion of poptimism where the concept just becomes "covering the every move of the 15 most famous celebrity musicians in america" but again it would be a little on the nose to turn this thread into a discussion about poptmism

when a consistent pattern of coverage and non-coverage emerges over the course of years, endorsement (of a particular narrative, if not necessarily specific artists) can be pretty easily inferred.

although it doesn't rankle me as much as it does unperson, I think this is correct -- the coverage given isn't ever just a reflection of the listenership's needs. that narrative -- "what gets the coverage is what people are interested in" -- is a weirdly market-capitalist claim tbh.

i do think there are very popular artists who are weird and culty and very popular artists who are much closer to the creative zeitgeist of popular music, but yes that logic can become circular

still i suspect more artists in hip hop are going to take ideas from this than wont, regardless of how publications treat this

i do think there are very popular artists who are weird and culty and very popular artists who are much closer to the creative zeitgeist of popular music, but yes that logic can become circular

https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/YCfUen3KBlDdUBOOQ_1QrAwnWYE/fit-in/2048xorig/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2018/01/29/980/n/1922398/tmp_XRCCA9_ad13a8ab9fb5560d_GettyImages-911548280.jpg

i assume you're just making a logic joke but hes p far from the zeitgeist, he's a successful branding exercise building on the (zeitgeist-adjacent) creative innovations of more relevant artists

his glasses are circular though

This is way off-topic, but how were there not already like a zillion backpack rappers named Logic before that guy came along?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DJ_Logic

Well, as I recently rediscovered while trying to listen to “The Warning” on Apple Music, there was a house act on Strictly Rhythm who later had to rebrand as New York Logic:
https://www.discogs.com/artist/15177-Logic

it took me way too long to realize that wasn't anthony fantano

^^^ That's who I thought it was, too.

wait it's not?

deej otm. The next generation will probably emulate xxx, but they probably won't emulate logic. That's why we can't afford to think xxx out of existence. It's also, to a certain extent, why the taste of teenagers tends to matter more than the taste of adult gatekeepers. I'd love to imagine a future where xxx (and logic, of course but that's another matter) is despised & forgotten, but chances are we'll have no such luck. So we'd better find a more productive way to engage with it than "arghhhh, teenagers".

i mean, i do think it matters how we handle shit like this tbc ... but this is the world we've made, where youtube & soundcloud are seen as neutral sites instead of publications

im not actually super into xxx on a personal level, hes extremely corny and an abuser which makes it hard to catch onto the underdog narrative, i just think its undeniable that the work hes making is a real thing in teh world that is persuading people to think a certain way, and that pretending its not is equivalent to holding your hands over your ears...imo criticism is a tool to rob it of its glamor, not a tool to rationalize its 'artiness'

but in order to do that you have to be honest about what its doing that 'works'

It’s weird how he’s the most recent superstar in this era of wokeness though.

not really, teens are not all as woke as the ones in the news

its almost like the entire concept of wokeness is perpetuted by the coastal media elite as a given norm when really Americans would readily elect a racist xenophobe misogynist to be the president

plus also sometimes people with 'woke' politics like 'unwoke' art

right now what's happening in part is the no platforming that (rightly imo) is pushing against i.e. 'free speech' defenses of Bannon giving a speech at U of C, or ppl defending "good writers" who also happen to believe in the bell curve or whatever as Atlantic or Times columnists. this kind of trolling, or pretending at "objectivity" to give cover to i.e. race hate as if it were a thing worth serious debate.

ppl were doing that with xxx in the press but the press was kind of irrelevant and he did an end run around them bc youtube/soundcloud/message boards/social media etc get the word out, transform the debate into an interpersonal one rather than one about platforms bc no one sees spaces like youtube as a publication, but as a neutral site

is how i see it

except in this case the no-platforming accomplishes nothing; the argument for no-platforming is it causes the bad actors in question to give up and take their nazi ball home; clearly, there is no risk of that happening here

right thats what im trying to say!

no problem, misread

people doin good work on this thread I gotta say, enjoying the ~~~discourse~~~

he's on the new weeknd album apparently

perhaps the look-at-me-self-righteousness of xxx and certain types of wokeness might even be connected in some way.

This seems like a crucial read.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/music/the-real-story-of-rapper-xxxtentacion-10410980

Nearly two years after they first met, Ayala now rents a room in a house 20 minutes south of Onfroy's place. It's the first room she's had to herself. "I'm saving up to move somewhere else," she says, "somewhere in the country, where there aren't any people."

a grim and disturbing read.

Some discussion of him on the mumble rap 2017 thread but now that we’re about to see him break into the mainstream he deserves his own thread.

Album got dropped on spotify one week ago and its songs are creeping all the global and viral charts. Billboard is still not acknowledging the streams but it’s safe to say Sad will take the singles charts and the album will take the top 200 in the following weeks.

So, what say you ILM? Worthy of the insane hype?

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Saturday, March 24, 2018 1:13 PM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ffs

― imago, Saturday, March 24, 2018 1:16 PM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fuck this scumbag abuser forever
https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/xxxtentacions-reported-victim-details-grim-pattern-of-abuse-in-testimony/

― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, March 24, 2018 1:27 PM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^^

― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Saturday, March 24, 2018 1:55 PM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how did this thread not end right here?

cause soundcloud kids kept listening to him

that's a very sad final paragraph to the piece

"sad" (the song) did not end up taking off on radio as much as i thought it would, i am relieved to say. (obviously it was still a big hit tho + his fans were gonna stream it and the rest of his music constantly regardless of whether radio gave it any further exposure.)

horrifying read

Take, for instance, Hillary Clinton, he says. "She ran [for president] and she wasn't killed for it. That says everything."

yeah fuck him. in this time of endless music availability giving truck to guys like this makes no sense on a 'you can listen to anything else' level although it totally tracks on a 'how does one stand out from the crowd' level

holy shit

http://www.tmz.com/2018/06/18/xxxtentacion-shot-dead-miami/

Live by the sword, die by the sword

oh damn

Live by the sword, die by the sword

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, June 18, 2018 3:42 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

one of the worst posts ive ever seen on this board

He's gone from "Dead" to "No pulse" to "Critical condition." By tonight, he'll have just been hit with a bb.

he was just pronounced dead

ilx posts age like milk

He'll be missed. By someone. Probably.

everyone here is so woke they'll dance on a 20 year old's grave

Shakey inspired obit goes here

xp. ah yes, unperson, the most famously woke ilxor

everything about the x story sucks and this is just the awful kicker

friendly reminder you can always say nothing

This is all just horrible. R.i.p.

spent five minutes on twitter and reminded that the apparent need for takes, across the spectrum, is just the worst

ops to simon. i find saying something mildly flippant or shitty about a person who was objectively monstrous who has just died a lot less unpalatable than people RIPing him but ymmv

xps even fuck

i guess we could put them on a spectrum of stupid to stupider, or we could agree they're both stupid

basically

i don't think that saying something shitty about a recently dead dude who stuck a carving fork in his girlfriend's vagina is that bad

or particularly stupid

I don’t think performative glee at the murder of a 20 year old, even an abusive 20 year old, im broad daylight is especially righteous

Both are true

i find saying something mildly flippant or shitty about a person who was objectively monstrous who has just died a lot less unpalatable than people RIPing him but ymmv

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Monday, June 18, 2018 6:51 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

x2. Obviously this is a tragedy--a talented (or so I am told) person cut down so young and so senselessly will always be that--but the tone of this thread basically going from "fuck this scumbag forever" to "let's commission a mural" just because someone did what a lot of people he's hurt probably (and justifiably) wanted to do and murdered the guy is eh a little weird

Lol who is commissioning a mural itt

i did. i commissioned one.

We'll all have to look at him now.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/music/the-real-story-of-rapper-xxxtentacion-10410980

Obviously I was exaggerating but if you don't think some enterprising ghoul is designing a memorial t-shirt RIGHT THIS SECOND you are a far less cynical a person than me

and yeah actually I would not be surprised at all to see a mural. Dunno if you've noticed, but it's candle in the fucking wind on Twitter about this guy right now

RIP XXX
98.3K Tweets

can't wait to see the reactions when "sad!" hits number 1 in two weeks

So that's how it's pronounced https://t.co/ip9DfBCDkf

— Mike F (@mikefossey) June 18, 2018

Ppl

Obviously I was exaggerating but if you don't think some enterprising ghoul is designing a memorial t-shirt RIGHT THIS SECOND you are a far less cynical a person than me

and yeah actually I would not be surprised at all to see a mural. Dunno if you've noticed, but it's candle in the fucking wind on Twitter about this guy right now

Twitter is a fucking nightmare now

"now"

Lol @ pretending there were people here painting a mural

What U really mean is the most woke pov is dancing on his grave

Simon H otm

Time to walk away from the keyboard, sucks in here

It’s not like I’m parading his death, it’s that I refuse to feel sympathetic towards a guy who brutally beat his pregnant gf to the point of almost killing her. I’m not happy he got murdered but honestly, I just shrugged when I read it. Maybe I’m an asshole too and my previous opiniom of him wont suddenly change just because he got murdered. Oh well, you can shrug for me too.

I don’t have my opinion about this and maybe it’s better to not say anything but this board doesn’t allow edits or deletion of posts so it’s too late.

But ok I’m probably off to happier threads before I continue to offend more people in here.

Thoughts and prayers.

https://twitter.com/i/events/1008852757883674625

this is nuts though

.@Spotify Pretty gross 180 you've done on this guy. Transparent and spineless through and through. At least the message is clear to your users than any social stance you take is tied directly to how much it'll increase plays. pic.twitter.com/9WcGWxwWft

— Bobby Ditta (@bobbyditta) June 19, 2018

Hey I’m back! Yeah that Spotify thing is spineless af, if they’re going to play politics they need to stand for something and not change their mind for money. Or just be a business and stop taking social stances that don’t really mean shit to you for good PR.

At least they were smart enough not to link to the playlist on twitter, they would have eaten them alive for it.

Seriously how much are they going to make from putting his music back up? Peanuts right, in the grand scheme of things? Just take the L

His music was never removed from Spotify, right? That policy only affected his inclusion on playlists like Rap Caviar.

ah gotcha

R Kelly is the only person whose music they've pulled or is the same situation?

Same situation, but XXXtencion was the one whose plays were hurt the most by it, whereas R Kelly actually had an increase.

Wtf

man thumper would not survive 2018

i know certain articles made it sound like his streaming numbers were consistently falling following the implementation of that policy -- i saw some saying -17% in daily streams for "sad!" -- but examined over a longer-term period (i.e. several days) the reported fluctuations were well within the normal range of daily fluctuations that pretty much all songs on the service experience whether they're prominently playlisted or not. as far as i was able to tell all of his songs were pretty stable in positional ranking for the entire period that he was blacklisted from spotify's playlists.

the playlists spotify creates/promotes in reaction to (tragic) news stories are frequently cringe-inducing, i'm amazed they haven't decided to stop already

There's no limit pic.twitter.com/YxhhX6tuKi

— Crowsa Luxemburg (@quendergeer) June 19, 2018

His life was nasty, brutish and short, and there's always something heartbreaking about that. Even if it may be preferable to nasty, brutish and long, I don't know.

🐦[So that’s how it’s pronounced https://t.co/ip9DfBCDkf🕸
— Mike F (@mikefossey) June 18, 2018🕸]🐦

I agree, it is a tragedy that wins has not get proper credit for this joke.

That's what you get for falling over in a forest..

Every time I saw his name I would get Heaven 17 stuck in my head.

The local reporters this morning read his moniker indistinctly Spanish accents.

Hey I’m back! Yeah that Spotify thing is spineless af, if they’re going to play politics they need to stand for something and not change their mind for money. Or just be a business and stop taking social stances that don’t really mean shit to you for good PR.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka)

i thought it was motivated by kendrick threatening to pull his music from spotify if they followed through with it?

Yes, it was exactly that.

http://www.byroncrawford.com/2018/06/pregnant-runaways-breathe-collective-sigh-of-relief.html

Hey guys whats up

There’s no need for hot takes all the time, simon still otm - you could just say nothing. Basically I don’t care

Wow I do not need to know Byron Crawford’s take on this or anything.

bol is scum too

"scum"? Does that mean if he died it would be expected to shit on him too

did I say that?

im not sure where youre drawing the line between dehumanizing people enough that its ok to celebrate when they die or not

His life was nasty, brutish and short

Seems he was too.

I really really don't understand why you're so intent on carrying water for this guy, like surely you understand why people have a less than charitable response to his death

Damon Young isn't pulling punches.

https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/stop-pretending-you-actually-gave-a-shit-about-xxxtenta-1826952372

Interesting how "performative mourning" is used in that piece and "performative glee" was used earlier in this thread, almost like the word "performative" is meaningless and people should stop using that fucking word to bolster their own reaction's Authenticity

otherwise that piece is otm

I really really don't understand why you're so intent on carrying water for this guy, like surely you understand why people have a less than charitable response to his death

― self-clowning oven (Murgatroid), Tuesday, 19 June 2018 18:04 (forty minutes ago) Permalink

Who is carrying water for this guy?? Saying we shouldn’t celebrate his death is carrying water now ??

What U really mean is the most woke pov is dancing on his grave

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, June 18, 2018 7:45 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You don't need to be "woke" and crawl down a Tumblr social justice hole to understand why people are reacting this way

why people are dancing on the grave of a 20 year old kid?

because he symbolized a lot of toxic aspects of modern day society and twitter and instagram invite glib reactions? i’m not saying it’s right, but the people praising him without qualification are just as quease inducing. damon young otm

I don’t judge individuals particularly who have been victimized themselves from having whatever emotional response to this they feel is right; I do question the logical endpoint of dehumanizing him as an ideological stance. For one thing, it seems not very intersectional

I don’t understand how glib people are capable of being about a young man who was just murdered in broad daylight. He was not a good person; he did not deserve death.

— willy 💧 (@willystaley) June 18, 2018

I don’t see a problem w Damon young’s Piece at all

XXXTentacion's Alleged Abuse Victim Not 'Relieved or Happy' https://t.co/k4p7Zimkt6

— TMZ (@TMZ) June 19, 2018

for me it's mostly that i don't give a shit about moral judgment w/o any action to rectify the multitude of problems tied up in this "narrative." like, it seems to me that people are pushing so and so stance just so they can feel better about not putting any work in; participation is rooted in a discursive loop, not in a desire to work towards anything apart from making moral points about what abusers do and don't deserve on a moral level. which, people can think whatever, but structural change and restorative justice really has nothing to do w that and this discourse seems more diversionary towards that end goal than helpful

also re that tmz link, seeing people on twitter shit on abuse victims for saying they didn't get closure when their abuser died is telling

because he symbolized a lot of toxic aspects of modern day society and twitter and instagram invite glib reactions? i’m not saying it’s right, but the people praising him without qualification are just as quease inducing. damon young otm

― maura, 19. juni 2018 20:30 (nineteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you don't see the problem with making a kid into a symbol of all that's wrong in society, and then celebrating his death?

...

Longneck, you're a one, aren't you.

actually i. worded that weirdly. didn't mean to imply that people can't feel one way or another, but i don't think "performative" is a meaningless word at all

you don't see the problem with making a kid into a symbol of all that's wrong in society, and then celebrating his death?

like that miami new times piece... i don’t understand how you can read that and not think that something deeply fucked up is in the bones of everything

I definitely see the problem with that, and I have also written publicly about how sickened I've felt listening to his music and witnessing its reception. I still think flat out cruelty and jokes and making a dead kid into some sort of scapegoat for society's ills is almost just as sickening though. It doesn't solve anything.

not to mention a hype cycle that’s so choked police reports are the only things that cut through the clutter?

This is such an important point... I think it also speaks to the restricted agency of poverty where publicity comes at an insanely high cost ... that the only poor kids we hear about making their way out do so when some crime has been committed

For me it’s quite simple: I thought “well, fuck this asshole” when he was alive and now that he’s dead I still think “well, fuck this asshole”. That doesn’t mean I’m celebrating his death, does it?

Sorry about my terrible opening post after hearing about it - the live by the sword, die by the sword line - it should have been: live by the bbq fork you tried to shove up your ex-gf’s vagina, die getting shot in your BMW.

Oops, sorry. RIP king. Thoughts and prayers.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/weve-only-begun-understanding-xxxtentacions-musical-legacy-w521739

Oh for fucks sake that is legit terrible.

Wow - this sequence of sentences in particular - it's like watching the rationalization/minimization happen in real time:

A deposition excerpted by Pitchfork and reporting from the Miami New Times pointed to a history of physical and mental violence that's monstrous by any standard – most notably the allegations of beating her so severely that he damaged her optic nerve. During his life, XXX was callous about the accusations, even mocking. News media and social media made attempts to silence, de-platform and otherwise cancel him, but his impact on music will be felt for years to come nonetheless.

By sentence 3, he has become the victim of "attempts to silence" (etc.) which was presented as "reporting" just a few beats earlier.

Earlier, I typed up and then deleted a post about how the most "performative" thing going around XXXTentacion was not grief or woke rage, but thirtysomething critics pretending that half-assed music by and for stoned, ignorant teenagers was somehow important and worthwhile. Whiney's piece is Exhibit A.

Nowhere in that piece do I say that XXX is a victim or that his music is good. Feel free to keep projecting things on it though, you self-righteous clods

I'm not feeling self-righteous at all; just gobsmacked

What a happy discussion this will be!

I spent the last thirty minutes trying to articulate my complicated thought pattern with some level of succinctness

Only to be derailed by Whiney's piece

But anyway:

I think the prerogative toward grieving, or celebrating, the murder (or death) of an abusive individual within the black community should be black people's prerogative and theirs alone

I’m just not into the Richie Valens comparison at all.

lotta bad reading going on itt

You don't say his music is good, you just talk (and talk, and talk) about his chart success without any context for how "chart success" is measured now versus how it was measured in the late Seventies or early Eighties (when your examples - the Germs, Tall Dwarfs, etc. - were putting out records). Charting with "album equivalent units" is a qualitatively different thing from getting people to walk into a store and buy a record with your name on it. XXXTentacion charted because stoned, ignorant teenagers were briefly fascinated by him. They'll be briefly fascinated with someone else next week.

d-40 otm throughout this thread

I think the prerogative toward grieving, or celebrating, the murder (or death) of an abusive individual within the black community should be black people's prerogative and theirs alone

― nevertheless, he stopped (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, June 19, 2018 6:17 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

strongly disagree with this. the guy was a public figure and his misdeeds were reflective not of the black community but of our culture of indifference to the mistreatment of women as a whole

his misdeeds were reflective not of our culture of indifference to the mistreatment of women as a whole but reflective of teenagers' culture of indifference to pretty much everything

sure

I mostly agree with deej btw but I personally would not die on this particular hill on this particular day, to put it gently

I think the prerogative toward grieving, or celebrating, the murder (or death) of an abusive individual within the black community should be black people's prerogative and theirs alone

― nevertheless, he stopped (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, June 19, 2018 6:17 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

strongly disagree with this. the guy was a public figure and his misdeeds were reflective not of the black community but of our culture of indifference to the mistreatment of women as a whole

― k3vin k., Tuesday, June 19, 2018 6:50 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I mean, women from all backgrounds, for example, might have thoughts about the situation that deserve to be heard

k3vin

Very specifically, I said that the decision whether to grieve or celebrate the murder (or death) of an abusive individual within the black community should be black people's prerogative and theirs alone

Similarly, I don't think it'd be a good look for non-black men or women to say "yay, that fucker is dead" when OJ dies

I limited the scope of this opinion to "abusive individual within the black community" because I'm really talking about individuals who have committed violence against other individuals. (Not Charles Taylor, i.e.)

I didn't say that non-black people couldn't have opinions about his misdeeds or the culture of indifference that he represented, or put forth constructive ways of correcting that culture

the OJ situation obviously is a special case. granting that in this godforsaken country we inhabit any news story involving a person of color is going to draw out questionable responses from white people, was the discourse around xxx's career sufficiently racially polarized to make that comparison appropriate? I honestly can't say I followed his career very closely

I view people who engage in apologism for this guy the same way I do all the Varg/Burzum stans (and I know there are many of those in this ilx community). Don't any of you twist yourselves in a knot trying to advocate to irredeemable people no matter what kind of point you're trying to score.

advocate *for

“XXXTentacion charted because stoned, ignorant teenagers were briefly fascinated by him.” — someone who dedicated his life writing about bands with names like Bathtub Shitter and Anal Cunt

So you're saying I'm...wrong? Your response feels kinda handwavy.

my response is finger-wavy, bitch

So a terrible person made some popular art and then died, is what happened?

the good thing is the people who demonize him dont have to look at themselves or the artists they've propped up over the years at all

@ k3vin, I think that in the wake of so many high-profile celebrities being outed as abusers, and the collective trauma that survivors have been through over the past eternity of hearing account after account after account, that XXX being gunned-down-in-the-street satisfied a revenge fantasy that many survivors have been privately having against their own abusers. (Not me personally, all I want from my abuser is an apology.) Although it's understandable that non-black people might take to the internet to celebrate his death, and I don't judge people who've done it, I do not think that it is a good idea to use XXX as a proxy for that fantasy. I think it is an accessorization of a black body to mitigate one's own trauma. Despite claims that a celebration of XXX's death might be in solidarity with survivors of his violence, I think the survivor's body and wishes are also being ignored and accessorized with such a celebration. I'm not passing judgement in saying these things, just expressing my own conflicted feelings (and tentative conclusion): I do not think it is my place as a non-black person to make decisions to either grieve or celebrate individuals such as these on the event of their murder, or form (let alone express) opinions when black people choose to either grieve or celebrate on the event of his murder.

All I really feel is sadness overall!

or we can, you know, not say or think anything at all

go for it

I don't think anyone should be celebrating his death, making snarky comments, etc. On the other hand, I also recoil at how some of the the (non-black) artists in this thread are choosing to publicly grieve/celebrate his life: https://twitter.com/i/events/1008852757883674625

I think he is the first celebrity accused of abuse to die in the MeToo era (not to mention die horribly); so there's not really a template for how to respond and weigh his accomplishments against the accusations. I am trying to keep that in mind. He was also so young, and the alleged abuse so fresh/recent -- those are factors on both sides of the coin.

thirtysomething critics pretending that half-assed music by and for stoned, ignorant teenagers was somehow important and worthwhile

new board description

To be real w unperson, outside of two songs, I don’t really like XXXs music, but it seems absurd to me to treat something this popular and influential with “eh, kids are dumb, this will be over soon” especially after you know — of all people on here — know what the initial reaction to Black Sabbath, Led Zep and Kiss was.

And no, there’s isn’t some 1:1 ratio between popularity and importance, but I think I outlined how XXX did have an impact in his short time here

alfred otm

judging feels so good eh?

i mean, dancing on the grave of a dead person, unbookmarked

it seems absurd to me to treat something this popular and influential with “eh, kids are dumb, this will be over soon” especially after you know — of all people on here — know what the initial reaction to Black Sabbath, Led Zep and Kiss was.

Yes, but - and this is my main point here - I feel like in that piece, you were equating things that are not the same, because Soundcloud and free-tier Spotify streams are not the same as record sales, no matter what Billboard tells us and themselves in a desperate attempt to stave off their own irrelevance. I haven't done a deep dive into the numbers (I'll leave that to Chr1s M0l4nphy), but it looks to me like this guy was "successful" without actually being successful, and whichever major label signed him was throwing its money down a hole, even before this, when it just looked like he was gonna spend his prime creative years in prison.

Nobody I know had ever heard of this guy. Billboard charts don’t mean jack shit anymore.

You wouldn't if you didn't hang out with music critics or anyone under 25.

I mean, women from all backgrounds, for example, might have thoughts about the situation that deserve to be heard

― k3vin k

my thought when reading through billboard's collection of twitter encomiums to the man was "hmmm, i wonder what black women have to say about xxxtentacion upon his passing".

my personal opinions about the man don't, and shouldn't, matter

Yes what *could* be the difference between a chart that gauges how many moms paid to own an Adele album to play in their second minivan’s CD player and how many times something was streamed on SoundCloud by a teenager who can’t afford the monthly $9.99 Spotify charge. What could possibly be the benefit of determining popularity that way?

i mean, dancing on the grave of a dead person, unbookmarked

― lost in sublimation (Ross)

ross i think there's something you should know about this board

Unperson’s analysis of his popularity couldn’t be more wrong

Maybe, but who cares. He's not Tupac. He's not Biggie. He's not even Jam Master Jay. Five years from now he'll be a footnote even among those who are most ardent about un-dirtying his history this week. Let him disappear into the noise and be glad he can no longer beat anyone half to death.

That would’ve been the ideal thing. But he got murdered and now he’s some sort of misunderstood genius and a martyr.

I didn’t wish his death, I actually wish he was alive so he would get fat and fade out like everyone else.

streaming numbers measure the actual time people spend listening to music, and x's streaming numbers were astounding

the argument the press tried to make that his success is completely down to the infamy he attained as a result of his extramusical misdeeds is worth hearing but it is also indisputable that people were hearing the music and they were hearing it a *lot*

seems fully improbable to suggest that a culture so fully soaked and submerged in the dude's work will somehow manage to completely shake out the stain just on the basis of the absence of his body

to have reservations about an artist, especially an artist accused of the things x was accused of, is totally well and good and healthy, but to dismiss the very real and indisputable evidence of his massive popularity doesn't do any favors for the already very difficult conversation surrounding the artist's work and legacy

I'm fine with any and all attempts to bury the guy's legacy before it can really become established in "the canon." If people rediscover him in 25 years, he'll still be a shitstain, but the real damage would have already been mitigated.

no critical conversation is going to or was ever going to have any effect at all on whether or not the dude is remembered or influential or not

pretending otherwise is unhealthy

y'all i think music and young people are going to be ok. sheesh

https://m.imgur.com/fYI8Win

http://abc7.com/large-crowd-gets-rowdy-during-memorial-for-xxxtentacion/3624899/

Johnny Fever OTM.

found Whiney's piece impressively convincing, but can't help but wonder if invoking the rock narrative is doing XXX any favors

I guess it serves to place the music in a "serious" context, but perhaps somewhere along the rock'n'roll and DIY hardcore analogies we lose sight of the music in point

https://www.stereogum.com/2002354/the-tangled-legacy-of-xxxtentacion/franchises/sounding-board/

That's a great piece

+1 very good Tom Breihan

Hearty co-sign.

yeah that was great
glad he mentioned Jimmy Wopo, he was really great RIP

"Elm Street" was a goon fav
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-agUlNitPE

Just to add to the chorus: really good piece.

Last year, one of them went differently. While Playboi Carti, Ugly God, and Madeintyo did their own supremely halfassed verses, cheering each other on, XXXTentacion lurked in the background, silent. When it was his turn to rap, the beat abruptly cut off. He crouched to the ground, froze, and grumbled, “If the world ever has an apocalypse, I will kill all of you fuckers.” The other rappers weren’t sure what to do. They stood there reverent, or maybe scared, or maybe just puzzled, while their supposed peer gave his slam-poetry jeremiad about annihilating humanity. It remains a strange fucking moment.

I don’t like this pov, feels like mythifying him as this outsider rebel genius and I’m not seeing the reverance, scare or puzzled expression in any of the other rappers when he was performing because it’s too fucking dark to even see them.

Everyone of them was lurking in the background silent while one of them had the spotlight. It was planned beforehand to cut the beat when he started, it’s not this rockist “fuck the system” moment for the books. He didn’t go unplug the dj and front each rapper and burn the whole thing down. It all went according to plan.

and just to add on. the illuminati is dangerous. i bet you they tried to get x to sell his soul. but x is humble and he ain’t about doing that shit for fame. he got famous by himself! and drake didn’t fucking like that! so they got his ass man ):

— rochelle grace (@rochelllegrace) June 19, 2018

i love it when writers use "maybe" multiple times in a sentence, it really makes me think they know what they're talking about xp

i thought whiney's piece was good incidentally

yeah that xxxtentacion quote is dark, like something ed o'neill would say in one of his wayne's world scenes.

I’ll be honest I didn’t read it through I was annoyed at the media pushing this 2edgy4me clown as a martyr. I might have misread the intention of the article but the title is either clickbait or tells me all I needed to read.

And well, after I read that part I quoted above I thought “oh this is gonna be good, I need to see this” and then I saw the actual video and the whole thing is so lame. There’s no conflict in there, that’s just the writer overhyping edgy teen poetry.... again to push this mythos of this violent, disturbed genius. To me it seems like the other 3 people on stage didn’t give a fuck about it tbh. They were certainly not scared of him and why should they be? They weren’t women.

I hadn't heard Jimmy Wopo but I liked "Elm Street" and I watched an interview and he's, um, disarmingly does to earth and charming. This is so fucked up

To me it seems like the other 3 people on stage didn’t give a fuck about it tbh.

Yeah they look like they could easily be thinking, "Whatever..."

It’s not like he had the mic at sunday church.

XXXTentacion breaks Taylor Swift's single-day streaming record on Spotify https://t.co/QCoqKMao2o pic.twitter.com/t9UO2Je3jw

— Stereogum (@stereogum) June 20, 2018

nobODy i knOW HAD evER HEARD OF tHiS Guy. BillbOArd ChARtS dON’t mEan JACK shiT Anymore.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTHmLUHVwAIdRTY.jpg:large

glad that piece of shit aint getting a penny of it though

I bought this stuff at a gas station once... ended up getting gang-tased by 6 cops. Did they finally recall it?

i think so

https://i.redd.it/k2bv1jqtja511.jpg

...

denied entry into the uk. hurray

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/arts/music/xxxtentacion-arrest-murder-charge.html

xp oh wait i got confused with this bell end and 6six9ine or w/e, the other bell end

"yeah that xxxtentacion quote is dark, like something ed o'neill would say in one of his wayne's world scenes."

this is a very good burn

(and accurate)

xp oh wait i got confused with this bell end and 6six9ine or w/e, the other bell end

Or Trump?

Last year, one of them went differently. While Playboi Carti, Ugly God, and Madeintyo did their own supremely halfassed verses, cheering each other on, XXXTentacion lurked in the background, silent. When it was his turn to rap, the beat abruptly cut off. He crouched to the ground, froze, and grumbled, “If the world ever has an apocalypse, I will kill all of you fuckers.” The other rappers weren’t sure what to do. They stood there reverent, or maybe scared, or maybe just puzzled, while their supposed peer gave his slam-poetry jeremiad about annihilating humanity. It remains a strange fucking moment.

the gulf between this description and the muddled, awkward gunk that i observed when i actually watched the clip is grand canyon sized

Well, the world's a twisted place.

his misdeeds were reflective not of our culture of indifference to the mistreatment of women as a whole but reflective of teenagers' culture of indifference to pretty much everything

― we æt so many shimripl (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, June 19, 2018 5:52 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this resonates, but it's not just an indifference to me, but the inability to figure out what things have an actual weight in life. the inability to figure out what's going too far, what's forgivable, what's part of playing a persona and what is actually showing who you are. there are so many people who put on cynical personas or do things for a reaction and it takes a lot of development to make it beyond that. some people never change

the cynic in me says that jahseh onfroy crafted this stage persona that was emotionally stunted, dark, and violent and he happened to be an emotionally stunted, violent kid off stage. maybe he decided that was all he had to give the world, or never felt like showing even the people in his life that he had more than that

there are so many people who put on cynical personas or do things for a reaction

Some of them in this very thread!

Hadn’t read him in a while but it’s a standard Breihan thing, he’s often a really compelling writer and his enthusiasm is infectious until you see the thing he’s super excited about and it turns out to be kind of dumb.

From Pitchfork: But despite making a handful of the scene’s marquee hits, the 19-year old born Jahseh Onfroy stands apart from his SoundCloud rap peers. That distance was plainly illustrated in this year’s XXL Freshman cypher: while Playboi Carti, Ugly God, and Madeintyo bounce around, hyping one another with ad-libs and cooking dances, XXXTentacion lurks motionless in the background, head hung low. Then Sonny Digital cuts the beat, and X crouches to the floor, expressionless, rapping in a chilling monotone: “And if the world ever has an apocalypse, I will kill all of you fuckers.” There is a sense of unease when Digital brings the beat back; whatever just happened, no one is sure how to follow it.

From Stereogum: Last year, one of them went differently. While Playboi Carti, Ugly God, and Madeintyo did their own supremely halfassed verses, cheering each other on, XXXTentacion lurked in the background, silent. When it was his turn to rap, the beat abruptly cut off. He crouched to the ground, froze, and grumbled, “If the world ever has an apocalypse, I will kill all of you fuckers.” The other rappers weren’t sure what to do. They stood there reverent, or maybe scared, or maybe just puzzled, while their supposed peer gave his slam-poetry jeremiad about annihilating humanity. It remains a strange fucking moment.

*chin-stroke emoji*

that moment was indisputably striking imo; it inspired all these twitter memes of like how xxx was in the trenchcoat mafia or w/e. The theater didn't work for a jaded thirtysomething ilxor maybe but i think it *is* a good example of how xxx stood apart from his peers even if certain descriptions of it leave something to be desired

If that is the event on which you want to build a legend be my guest.

He crouched to the ground, froze, and grumbled, “Ten rings on like a basketball player.”

These articles could explain why the kids liked him, without making the slippage into mythologizing / portraying him as a rebel who can’t be constrained by society etc.

But mythologizing is a big part of music writing, as well as fans (and other artists) talking/writing about artists they love – and that’s part of the difficulty here I guess.

There’s outtakes as well so you can flush this myth that the rest of then were scared of him or that this was somehow unexpected or puzzling or whatever to anyone involved. They’re even laughing and high fiving one another:

https://youtu.be/MZOhsnT4mGs

Fuck your narrative

his shows looked wild

idnfw this guy but look at me is indisputably one of the singles of the 10s

I watched the clip for the first time last night and the other three looked like they were in on it and playing along with the theatre tbh.

the gulf between this description and the muddled, awkward gunk that i observed when i actually watched the clip is grand canyon sized

― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, June 21, 2018 2:21 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

Yeah of course, its contrived the same way wrestling is "fake" but the rubric that determines who gets to be face, who gets to be heel, who loses and who gets the belt is grounded in more tangible stuff.

So between the egos of the other rappers in the room and whichever creative director or w/e had final say on this thing, it was agreed that dude gets the big piece of chicken. He got the last word, he was allowed to stand out.

To the kind of people that get invested in this, those that are prepared to suspend disbelief and take it at face value, this adds tension and carries weight so this,

These articles could explain why the kids liked him, without making the slippage into mythologizing / portraying him as a rebel who can’t be constrained by society etc

rather than being difficult is just impossible. They liked him because he told them he was rebel who can’t be constrained by society etc and at the very least, made them want to believe it.

That Tom Breihan genuinely appears to buy in is impressive given that he's not a high schooler but more power to him. For the most part you don't get to shape the narrative of things you don't have a stake in.

That Tom Breihan genuinely appears to buy in is impressive given that he's not a high schooler but more power to him

Breihan also really likes pro wrestling and direct-to-video action movies. He is in very, very close touch with his inner 12-year-old.

Everyone who originally cannonballed into this thread to say how powerful and good two paragraphs of XXL Freshman freestyle fan fiction were really showed their ass

He crouched to the ground, froze, and grumbled, “Ten rings on like a basketball player.”

― cr.ht (crüt), Thursday, June 21, 2018 9:58 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this post is A+++ and should not go unnoted.

also i love the idea that they don't do a run through of the freshmen freestyle video before they shoot it

idnfw? "i don't necessarily fuck with"? i am really throwing darts at the board with that abbreviation

labp

#aye

goddamn it fellas where's the thrread where everyone made these fucking abbreviations up so i can bookmark it thx

iotw

i wish!

idnfw this guy but look at me is indisputably one of the singles of the 10s

― ||||||||, Friday, June 22, 2018 2:35 AM (ten hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sad! too

"Sad!" is undeniable

No, it's deniable. Actually this guy's whole existence is deniable.

pretty sure he existed

Lol

Ok I'll give him that

XXX started rapping after seeing the Salem Levi's Fader Fort performance on YouTube

"Sad!" is like "girlfriend in a coma" by racist morrisey

wait i thought morrissey was racist morrissey

that sentence can be read two ways. ... if u prefer say "known racist"

"Sad!" makes people want to be in denial, obviously.

warning reddit, but the story of the beat for "Never":

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicMakers/comments/8t8khu/a_story_of_how_xxxtentacion_took_my_music_and_i/

XXX started rapping after seeing the Salem Levi's Fader Fort performance on YouTube

ok I think dude's style was actually pretty great and I might have gotten into his music if he weren't an abuser but this is still a sick & fair burn

his misdeeds were reflective not of our culture of indifference to the mistreatment of women as a whole but reflective of teenagers' culture of indifference to pretty much everything

― we æt so many shimripl (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, June 19, 2018 5:52 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this resonates, but it's not just an indifference to me, but the inability to figure out what things have an actual weight in life. the inability to figure out what's going too far, what's forgivable, what's part of playing a persona and what is actually showing who you are. there are so many people who put on cynical personas or do things for a reaction and it takes a lot of development to make it beyond that. some people never change

the cynic in me says that jahseh onfroy crafted this stage persona that was emotionally stunted, dark, and violent and he happened to be an emotionally stunted, violent kid off stage. maybe he decided that was all he had to give the world, or never felt like showing even the people in his life that he had more than that

― mh, Thursday, June 21, 2018 4:34 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

good post mh I feel this

There’s a six-hour, open-casket memorial service for this guy happening Wednesday, at the Florida Panthers stadium. “Cell phones and cameras strictly prohibited.”

any murals yet?

xxpost: how is beating a pregnant woman as part of a persona better than doing it naturally?

Yeesh

https://youtu.be/0Fv6z8DoA2I

https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/8462525/xxxtentacion-sad-no-1-hot-100

xxpost: how is beating a pregnant woman as part of a persona better than doing it naturally?

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Sunday, June 24, 2018 12:56 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

beats me, eminem sold a shitload of records in character though

Eminem didn’t actually beat women in character though. It’s not the same playing a character that says he’ll kill or rape a woman than doing it. It’s not in good taste but it’s not a crime to say stupid, shocking shit for laughs.

Take the song “guilty conscience”, as the “bad conscience” Eminem advocates raping a 15 year old and killing a woman. Dre is supposed to be the “good conscience” but later on Eminem breaks the fourth wall and says “you’re going to take advice from the guy who slapped Dee Barnes?” which is the “bad” character calling bullshit on the supposedly good character. It’s all played as shock comedy and noone in their right mind should take the song as anything other than dark humor.

Now if Eminem was actually raping or beating women then you have your point.

uh, have you heard "Kim"?

that shit about him lifting people's music is pretty fucked up. they are all completely within their rights to sue...someone.

I’m not going to defend Eminem’s lyrics, I’m just saying it’s apples and oranges. Rapping about killing someone =/= actually killing someone. It’s not X’s lyrics which are under the light here.

that's fine, but your "shock comedy" angle doesn't make sense in the context of an extended murder fantasy like "Kim"

He also happened to beat up a blow up doll version of his ex wife on stage to the cheers of his fans, driving her to attempt suicide

if you want to believe Eminem's autobiographical songs, he admits to hitting her in "Bad Husband" and "Love the Way You Lie" gets physical too.

that shit about him lifting people's music is pretty fucked up. they are all completely within their rights to sue...someone.

― akm, Monday, 25 June 2018 19:36 (one hour ago) Permalink

This isn’t even on the spectrum of abusing a woman. Childish Gambino was just accused of the same thing, artists across the board do this. I guess what bugs me about this post isn’t that it’s wrong to advocate for artists to be paid for their contributions, but how ilx threads like this start adding up all the bad things he may have done like they’re Tells and we’ll get to a tipping point where hes definitively evil, that his true essence has been uncovered with a preponderance of evidence: he beat a woman! That’s enough

Also scratching my head at how enlisting other potential or real woman beaters makes it normal or more acceptable somehow.

In 2018 OJ would still have walked free it seems.

my point, I guess, in retrospect is: this guy shouldn't be lauded for anything. he seems to have been a horrible, violent, misogynist and he's not a legitimate artist either so don't come back with "separate the man from the art" arguments (not that anyone here is) because his art is fake too.

These articles could explain why the kids liked him, without making the slippage into mythologizing / portraying him as a rebel who can’t be constrained by society etc.

This one sort of does what I described above (though it ends in a bit of a muddle): https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/what-the-rise-of-xxxtentacion-says-about-being-a-fan-today/

xp
That probably is the second whitest thing I have read on this board.

First would be "Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword." In response to an unarmed black man being gunned down in the street.

To be clear I'm referring to the OJ comment

Which is daft even in isolation from all this

I don't know much about this guy's music so I might be way off here but are people in danger of downplaying the extent to which the nasty, vicious, transgressive side might be, for a significant enough minority of his fanbase, actually part of the appeal? I mean it's not like we aren't living in a world where lots of repellent moral voids amass huge followings, the internet is a sewer of men who are old enough to know better explaining away or downplaying abuse or worse, not to mention creepy incel types or whatever.

I'm not talking about teenagers being teenagers here, or people who connected with his music for other reasons, but it doesn't feel like it can be neatly or easily separated from everything else that's happening right now.

Xpost: Hey I also wrote that comment!

Congrats, you are now a graduate of the dog whistle school of "he was no angel".

my point, I guess, in retrospect is: this guy shouldn't be lauded for anything. he seems to have been a horrible, violent, misogynist and he's not a legitimate artist either so don't come back with "separate the man from the art" arguments (not that anyone here is) because his art is fake too.

― akm, Monday, June 25, 2018 4:40 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is just a weird way to parse this problem to me ... if him abusing women isn't going to stop someone from disliking him why would "he doesnt even make his own songs" puff daddy criticism going to be the final straw

"his art is fake" welcome to art 101

I'm sure it must have occurred to somebody/anybody that as with many rap artists, "authenticity" is considered an asset-- and for many rap fans, that means a history of poverty and criminality.

Which is to say, an XXXTentacion fan could have zero desire to beat women, and could even condemn XXXTentacion's violence toward women, but still have that objectifying part of them where their appreciation for their favourite rapper's work is increased by their perceived hardness, their perceived criminality

I myself do not digest music (rap or otherwise) this way and smile politely whenever any artist gets to the part where they make claims within or without their practice, claims that project themselves closer toward their desired position (aesthetically and politically) within their genre of choice-- whether it's affectation of criminality, affectation of DIY, affectation of community, affectation of "safe space", affectation of poverty, or whatever.

i think most of his fans loved x because they felt that he spoke to them and for them, not because he was hard or authentic or a horrible misogynist. Unfortunately.

why not both? especially in this particular moment?

I’m sure it can be both, but at this particular moment I’m not sure polarizing things is the way to go. I’ve had quite a few conversations with young and heartbroken x fans this week and they all feel as if the media is misrepresenting what they feel is the essential part of what he meant to them by focusing on the controversy instead of the music. I always try to argue that you can’t wholly separate those entities when it comes to x, but these people mostly seem to come from somewhere genuine.

I mean, I believe his main group of fans — not people who just casually liked the songs but have an idea of who he was — are people in their teens/early 20s, both male and female, who see a conflicted, even violent, relationship and internal angst as romantic

cynically, I think the same people thought Jared Leto’s Joker character was really cool

that’s fair. i also feel like the misogyny of this moment and the way notoriety is a better way to get attention than discussion of one’s music - not to mention the extremely well worn trope of the tortured artist who has to work out their demons by abusing the women who support him - needs to be at least nodded at.

i don’t doubt that elsewhere on soundcloud there are artists who can speak to adolescent pain as concisely and provocatively. but they didn’t get the “mugshot as promo photo” leg up and it’s fucked up to even think of that as a “leg up.” american culture has always fetishized the outlaw and teenage culture fetishizes the rebel Who Is Just Saying but this is another level.

xp

Cynically, I think most true fans of music at some point fall in love w an artist who is not - strictly speaking - good for them.

Xp

I don’t disagree with you, Maura. I’m not comfortable w his notoriety either. I do think that a good part of this has to do with him being the guy who captures a general cultural hopelessness the best for a lot of young listeners atm. They love him because he defied genres and limits in so many ways, and they identify with a certain radical vulnerability that doesn’t code as «hiphop» to them but goes straight to sone sort of depressed essence.

yeah i think you’re right on that point.

I'm trying to discern whiney and deej's positions aside from everyone is wrong and corny?

i am arguing against what i think are actively harmful/useless ideological positions

I'm sure it must have occurred to somebody/anybody that as with many rap artists, "authenticity" is considered an asset-- and for many rap fans, that means a history of poverty and criminality.

Which is to say, an XXXTentacion fan could have zero desire to beat women, and could even condemn XXXTentacion's violence toward women, but still have that objectifying part of them where their appreciation for their favourite rapper's work is increased by their perceived hardness, their perceived criminality

I myself do not digest music (rap or otherwise) this way and smile politely whenever any artist gets to the part where they make claims within or without their practice, claims that project themselves closer toward their desired position (aesthetically and politically) within their genre of choice-- whether it's affectation of criminality, affectation of DIY, affectation of community, affectation of "safe space", affectation of poverty, or whatever.

― nevertheless, he stopped (flamboyant goon tie included), Monday, June 25, 2018 5:48 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hip-hop's relationship to authenticity is imo so much more complex than the caricature captured here ... but this is a problem in general w continental philosophy which believes in an absolute ability to transcend identity vs. a philosophical pov in which there's an absolute racial boundary which cannot be 'transcended'

there are absurd ways in which authenticity is valued but there are also legitimate ones! and this is eternally negotiable ie, does this person represent ideas of a community or do they falsify experience in the pursuit of capital, what hyperbole is ok in terms of artistic license & what is exploitative, ppl benefiting for themselves from the stories of others, etc.

im not saying this abt xxx in particular who has a very particular relationship to the authentic, but acting as if 'authenticity' doesn't mean difft things in different contexts & doesnt serve a purpose is misleading imo

but this is a problem in general w continental philosophy which believes in an absolute ability to transcend identity

Please expand.

there are absurd ways in which authenticity is valued but there are also legitimate ones

Feel free to expand on this, too, because I don’t think “authenticity” is ever a legitimate value. It’s always bullshit. At best it’s harmless bullshit, like astrology, but at worst it’s literally lethal.

i mean you can say the same of pretty much any concept! 'science' 'rationality' etc

'the economy'

like no conceptual generality is 'real' its a shortcut for articulating more complex concepts

OK, so which complex concepts do you think are well articulated through discussions of authenticity?

Feel free to expand on this, too, because I don’t think “authenticity” is ever a legitimate value. It’s always bullshit. At best it’s harmless bullshit, like astrology, but at worst it’s literally lethal.

― grawlix (unperson), Monday, June 25, 2018 9:48 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i. there is a greyzone where concerns about 'authenticity' (seen as illegitimate) bleeds into 'cultural appropriation' (seen as legitimate)

ii. i kind of disagree w fgti that his work and relationship to others' can so neatly sidestep authenticity concerns, even though i feel similarly ambivalent to it. i think connection always evokes curiosity about who the person behind the work of art really is, and extramusical aspects of an artist will tend do try to affirm the authenticity of the artistic representation

iii. people usually talk about it in terms of like 'are rappers really drug dealers?' or 'daniel johston was actually depressed' or 'are these punk bands just rich art kids playing dressup?' but imo even something banal like the way 90s indie bands presented themselves dressed in plain clothes, speaking naturally, unpretentiously, even self-deprecatingly, is a signal that reaffirms the authenticity of those same qualities in the music

iv. isn't all music/art just 'harmless bullshit' anyways? *takes bong rip*

i. there is a greyzone where concerns about 'authenticity' (seen as illegitimate) bleeds into 'cultural appropriation' (seen as legitimate)

I also reject the idea of cultural appropriation, ftr.

OK, so which complex concepts do you think are well articulated through discussions of authenticity?

― grawlix (unperson), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 02:14 (twenty-eight minutes ago) Permalink

there are absurd ways in which authenticity is valued but there are also legitimate ones! and this is eternally negotiable ie, does this person represent ideas of a community or do they falsify experience in the pursuit of capital, what hyperbole is ok in terms of artistic license & what is exploitative, ppl benefiting for themselves from the stories of others, etc.

im not saying this abt xxx in particular who has a very particular relationship to the authentic, but acting as if 'authenticity' doesn't mean difft things in different contexts & doesnt serve a purpose is misleading imo

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, June 25, 2018 7:50 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think appropriation almost shortchanges this convo bc it can also be an intercommunity debate not just one between internal & external forces

maura otm

deej v interesting response. Wasn't trying to simplify "rap's relationship to authenticity" at all-- tho I realize I kind of did-- was just trying to point out that one can condemn XXX's crimes and yet still have his criminality contribute to an authenticity narrative-- or in Whiney's obit's case, a maverick-narrative

So much of this stuff I feel is directly linked to specifically-American concepts of exceptionalism. There was a trailer for some Jennifer Garner movie where a cartel kills her family so she trains herself toward vigilante justice. I watched the trailer like "this is all the same fucking shit", but anyway, whatever, I'll save it for my journal

In 2018 OJ would still have walked free it seems.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, June 25, 2018 5:12 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

we're still talking about OJ Da Juiceman here right

Lock thread imo

Flop pass the bong

so far the only thing of value I've gotten out of this thread is a lol from Whiney's comparison of Andy Gibb to Kendrick Lamar.

that was a good lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivaBXBudr1I

lmao these kids have zero idea how big michael jackson was

XXXTentacion was on track to being bigger than Justin Bieber and Micheal Jackson... this is unfair 😔

— RiceGum (@RiceGum) June 18, 2018

"bigger than Darby Crash" just doesn't have the same ring to it

I don’t think “authenticity” is ever a legitimate value

lol is this "i don't see race" but for art? this is an entirely meaningless statement.

I'm inclined to agree that determining an artist's "authenticity", or measuring the value of their work by trying to gauge how authentic they are, is a fool's game.

it is an inherent quality to any work. not the sole defining one ofc but a quality.

there is a reason that when Miley Cyrus uses trap dancers only to discard them people take notice

it seems like if you are an art critic, trying to understand the personal motivation & cultural/social context of a work and the signifiers used within is important. history is important. context is important.

a fool's game yes but describing any subjective experience is a fool's game and everyone is a player.

trying to understand the personal motivation... is important

not really

& cultural/social context of a work and the signifiers used within is important

yes definitely

it is an inherent quality to any work. not the sole defining one ofc but a quality.

No it's not, because there's no such thing as "authenticity" in art. The very nature of art-making is the construction of a thing which is inauthentic, a representation. Unless you're talking about, say, an Abstract Expressionist painting which is literally just what it claims to be - an arrangement of colors on a surface. A Barnett Newman painting is "authentically" itself. But in music, "authenticity" is a way to reduce artists to clichés and stereotypes.

there is a reason that when Miley Cyrus uses trap dancers only to discard them people take notice

Yes, and that reason is "People are stupid and believe in bullshit myths about 'authenticity.'"

I'd go one further and argue that the very existence of the work itself - the medium that occupies the space that the artist and the audience interact on - by its very nature renders any judgment about the work's "authenticity" on the part of the audience as impossible. You never see the "authentic" or "real" artist, all you see is the work.

Οὖτις otm

You never see the "authentic" or "real" artist, all you see is the work.

Exactly. I mean, you could argue that XXXtentacion or Tekashi69 attempt(ed) to break down the barrier between their real selves and their artistic personae by getting giant tattoos on their faces, thus making it impossible for them ever to be anyone but who they are/were "onstage", but ultimately it's all still performance.

used to think that & preach that gospel, now rather think that none of anything is performance and that the supremacy of artifice is a myth we buy into because the possibility of authenticity is too terrifying to even consider, but that's just me

rolling deconstructing the face tat thread

the racially and economically loaded history of "authenticity" also makes it pretty unpalatable imo, the "othering" of locating some kind of "noble savage" authenticity within people that were not rich or European is where all this bullshit really stems from - black people have "soul", latinos are "passionate", poor people are "real" people etc. Why continue to perpetuate this nonsense.

xp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eginkPg4JI

the supremacy of artifice is a myth we buy into because the possibility of authenticity is too terrifying to even consider

well it's kind of a zero-sum thing, right? Either it's all artifice (hey, what is the "real" me anyway?) or it's all authentic. idg where terror comes into it, apart from the general terrifying fact of our existence in a cold, mechanistic universe, I guess.

xp

here's where I'm at, it sounds confrontational but I don't mean it that way: every single piece of art anybody makes tells me something about that person no matter how hard they may try to make it otherwise. art is inherently authentic, it's all self-expression, even John Cage couldn't shed self-expression though he spent his entire career in the attempt at & can be said to have died trying. that there is my take, I think all this "authenticity is a critical fallacy" stuff is old-hat new criticism baggage that should be cast off like an...old hat

it's all self expression but well what is the self, really

There is a signature, yes, as the artist leaves more or less identifiable traces all over the work, but the work is beyond the artist, mocking any and all attempts at appropriating the creative act. We may speak of degrees of inauthenticity, perhaps, but even that leaves much to be desired: who's to say the overlap of person and persona isn't an elaborate ruse on the work's part, for example?

every single piece of art anybody makes tells me something about that person no matter how hard they may try to make it otherwise

Yeah, but so does the persona they've created in which to make that art, is what I'm saying. There's always that layer in between. And the persona is part of the art, but to deny that there's a persona at all is BS.

To pick a specific example, Jim Osterberg is not Iggy Pop. But it tells you a lot about Jim Osterberg that he came up with "Iggy Pop." And you can sort of track, album by album, the process by which "Iggy Pop" took over, to the point that there's a whole category of what I call "The Adventures of Iggy" songs on his albums, particularly those from the 1990s and after.

It seems to me that "all art is self-expression" is only trivially true, in the sense that (more or less) all art is made by someone, and most someones have some interiority, so it's reasonable to assume that an artist's interiority somehow enters into the explanation for the art they made, if only fractionally. But plenty of art can be understood perfectly well without knowing a thing about the inner life of whoever made it, or without coming to understand the artist through the art.

Anyway I don't actually know where the conversation in this thread is headed but I've been reading A.C. Danto, The Transfiguration of the Commonplace, and I have been having thoughts, which means I have to post something.

This is old hat, no doubt about it, but I've yet to be convinced that the opposite paradigm is any more applicable and useful.

xp

I would like to subscribe to all of youse's newsletters

Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity.

Thank God I know about Maud Gonne and Georgie Hyde Lees or I'd find little meaning in those lines.

MG iirc the dying animal

Hemiotics

But plenty of art can be understood perfectly well without knowing a thing about the inner life of whoever made it, or without coming to understand the artist through the art.

I know a lot of this is asked-and-answered for a lot of people, it was for me at one point too. but I've come think that when you know somebody's art, you understand something -- probably a big something -- about the person who made it. you don't know, like, where they live or what they had for breakfast necessarily, but the "me" you get from a person's art is probably more the "actual" person than the usually pretty tailored and practiced thing you get from talking to somebody. or living with somebody. this doesn't mean "if a guy sings about murder all the time he probably kills people" -- absurd, right -- but it's just as absurd to say that, say, Cannibal Corpse just happens to be singing about murder all the time. you have a good idea about what drives & inspires & fascinates & obsesses an artist from their themes, from the phrases & storylines & images they return to or avoid, etc etc. I don't think the art's separable from the person, nor is the persona, all that's a feint. that plenty of artists buy into the feint is interesting but in the end the personae you wear aren't external to you, they're just a version of you imo

Light the first light of evening, as in a room
In which we rest and, for small reason, think
The world imagined is the ultimate good.

This is, therefore, the intensest rendezvous.
It is in that thought that we collect ourselves,
Out of all the indifferences, into one thing:

Within a single thing, a single shawl
Wrapped tightly round us, since we are poor, a warmth,
A light, a power, the miraculous influence.

Here, now, we forget each other and ourselves.
We feel the obscurity of an order, a whole,
A knowledge, that which arranged the rendezvous.

Within its vital boundary, in the mind.
We say God and the imagination are one...
How high that highest candle lights the dark.

Out of this same light, out of the central mind,
We make a dwelling in the evening air,
In which being there together is enough.

it's never a bad time to paraphrase Wilde (and Yeats): the wearing of a mask is a way of telling the truth.

good post JCLC

I mostly think that authenticity is a sham: once you look closely, it evaporates away. But I do wonder if, rather than being a locatable thing in itself, it's just (one) another name for the thing that makes something (subjectively) better than something else. We all look for reasons, and language to fit those reasons, for why something leaves a wound in us, and authenticity is one name or one concept/strategy for making sense of that.

It's Romantic in the sense that it's a process of (probably false) enchantment, but (to paraphrase Elizabeth Bishop) it seems a reasonably coherent way of sorting through the things that pass us as we float through.

you have a good idea about what drives & inspires & fascinates & obsesses an artist from their themes, from the phrases & storylines & images they return to or avoid, etc etc.

does this pov require there to be an 'auteur' creating the artwork, whose interiority can be discerned through the artwork? like, if you're a jobbing director directing an episode of a long running tv show does this still apply? or a piece of art/media that is created by committee rather than by one person with complete creative control? in those cases maybe some of an individual's own obsessions and interiority creep in around the edges, but in a more diluted form? but even in a case where you have an auteur with complete control their 'self-expression' is still diluted by all kinds of things

'all art is authentic' doesn't seem that different in practise from 'no art is authentic', either way there's no point in trying to distinguish authentic from non-authentic art, or uses 'authenticity' as a concept to understand or analyse a piece of art?

A reductive story

There are communities of artists in Chicago who create music which is, through the obscuring effects of power differentials — access to PR, a weakened local press, a vacuum of investment, etc — largely invisible to the outside world.

One artist breaks out and because this stuff has been isolated from a broader mainstream, it’s culture is distinct and stands apart; outside, people want access to this experience of radical difference; they want to appreciate it, to profit from it, to enjoy it, to argue about it, to love it, to use it as a political football.

The lack of infrastructure means the demand is higher than these local artists ability to create supply, and there’s an entire system elsewhere built up to reproduce the aesthetic choices that made this local phenomenon interesting to the outside world, and the potential profits that make it worth time. And a much stronger ability to market it.

The local artists, seeing their sound or ideas replicated, respond differently: some are proud, some are angry, some are practical, take advantage of this new cachet to make further industry connections. None of the above are making much money from the thing they created; some might start calling outsider versions, which lack certain nuances or subtleties of the local culture, “fake” — aka inauthentic

Does that mean they think culture shouldn’t travel ? Does that mean they think it should be fenced in, or that they’d trade their newfound cultural cachet for obscurity? Or is it a simple economic argument, that isn’t arguing abt the illegitimacy of anyone else’s work as much as it is for the legitimacy and Real World Capital to match the much more ephemeral cultural capital they’ve earned? An appeal to the moral or ethical sense of an audience to consider the realities that what music they’ve been sold is mediated through a massive system which has not rewarded their creative endeavors but has benefitted from them?

I think in this sense, references to “authenticity” serve a very real purpose

It of course becomes more extreme when the things co opted are ie gang culture; that slang abt bloods starts getting used by corporate twitter accounts & there’s some really jarring shit where ppl are in jail & family members are dead & it’s a punchline to a guy running a social media account

I am not critiquing this as “appropriation” but just from the general POV of, like, empathy and respect for national tragedies...

Unperson: “there is no such thing as authentic blood culture so when Staples tweets ‘welcome to baples bitches’ it’s completely fine”

Yawn TLDR thread

Boring boring move it to ile

Y’all need a hot pocket instead of hot takes 24-7

Good post D-40, like exactly it

Um if I kicked off this rather droning tangent about "separating art from artist, can it be done? what is authenticity" it wasn't my intention

I was just saying that a considerable portion of rap listeners want their rappers to appear hard, and a history of criminality is an asset in this regard, my mom knows how many times 50 Cent was shot etc.

this is what spin is now

https://i.ibb.co/3rsMSkb/Screen-Shot-2019-06-06-at-3-56-34-PM.png