The internet is not very good for musicians these days, is it?

Or am I wrong?

I was going to post this on I Make Music but I thought I'd throw the discussion open to the rest of the board.

Feels like so many success stories came out of Myspace, and before that mp3.com and music messageboards in the early-mid 2000s, but since the advent of Facebook it feels like this opportunity to collaborate and share tunes has become increasingly clunky and lacking in versatility. This is a shame because internet capabilities are so much stronger than they were before.

I might be missing certain aspects of Soundcloud but everything is so formulaic and orange. The player is awkward to use, and I feel like it's lacking the community aspect of what a truly social network could offer. It's full of previews and random brainfarts and just feels like it should be more adaptable and overall, well, better than it is.

Bandcamp is great for releasing music and buying from smaller artists and at least you can customise your site, but still, I don't feel like it encourages a communal aspect, it's more like a Etsy shop for music. As far as I know, it doesn't really encourage exploration or rabbitholing in the same way as Spotify does with its Discover Weekly and playlist recommendations.

I'd really like to see a platform that works really well and is aimed at musicians and listeners primarily but ties in nicely to other general social networks and also encourages people to communicate and collaborate, but this weirdly doesn't seem to exist beyond maybe a few lesser-known sites.

Or am I wrong and have I been missing out on some big musicians' social network thing all this time?

Depends how you define good for musicians?
Bandcamp definitely made me money but as far as community goes, dunno, basically use it as a “business card” and a way to engage other musicians irl

Leading to collabs with rappers and r n b singers. But yes MySpace had a definite network vibe like connecting with stars and locals, in a way Bandcamp doesn’t seem to for instance. Like Janelle monae added me back in the day

Dunno, I’m not really in touch with a local scene or anything too connected, surely someone has a better pov

IMO Good for musicians = a platform that allows you to find an audience. Soundcloud nearly was this, when it had the groups feature. Since they killed that hits on my page reduced by 80%.

I've 'discovered' stuff on Bandcamp by following people and looking through the collections of people who buy stuff I like. I don't think I'd want it to be any more 'communal.'

i've discovered more music through bandcamp's editorials than through Spotify's algorithmic features

not really communal but they do a good job of highlighting a lot of interesting and otherwise overlooked albums on their platform

Yeah, Bandcamp has a substantial editorial side, plus they do RIYL links at the bottom of album pages which occasionally inspire me to additional purchases, and on their "discover" page you can search "new releases" (seems to be ~2 weeks) in a variety of genres and subgenres.

I don't know what kind of "communal aspect" you're looking for. Frankly the word "communal" gives me hives.

I wouldn't have been able to release the string of dubstep 12"s and remixes I did in the mid late 00's without forum culture / the whole AIM scene / the combination of easy access to like minded people but while keeping relative anonymity also.

I have found that since a lot of the promotion involved in releasing music has shifted to having a curated facebook / instagram / twitter presence I have been way less motivated to actually finish and release things.

^ fair but it depends what you want from music? Personally if I never made a dollar off my music I wouldn’t care, and I’ll willingly put my back catalogue online for free. Not new stuff mind you for free but like the Instagram-self promotion etc you mention is pointless to me. Like music journalism I can’t imagine making money off this in a serious way, it’s just catharsis and yeah I’ve made enough to eat but my point is fuck all that other noise and self flagellation, passion is passion

Not to dog music critics but it strikes me as an outlier career at this point, also making music is similar - it’s a gamble whether it will amount to anything and it’s taken me 20 years to get to a point where I’m comfortable

The problem with the communal aspect of Soundcloud is that it opened the gates for a whole load of people to effectively flood it with spam, following your page despite the fact that they've clearly not listened to your own music, in a vain effort to get you to listen to theirs despite a complete lack of connection. Too much of that stuff ends up diluting the experience. I think Bandcamp benefits in some ways from being more of a curated sort of experience.

Otm

Similar to Willl, I managed to start an online music community where we swapped tunes, critiqued each other's stuff, collaborated and even organised events around the country and released compilations. It was relatively easy - mostly done through free messageboards and mp3.com etc. Bandcamp is great if you want to release finished music, or if you're a listener and want to get into it, but does it really encourage musicians to get creative and work together like MySpace and web forums used to?

You can't upload tunes directly to Facebook, so you're always having to go through Soundcloud or some other site by proxy. Another thing is sharing files - yeah you've got Dropbox and things but again, it's not really ideal for collaborating on projects. It would be great if there were a way to kind of work on tracks in real time - preferably using a portable device if need be; so you could lay down a track, send it to your mate and they have the option to multitrack over it or just save over it really easily. Work on stuff in the background and then put it out in the public domain. I find Soundcloud a real rigmarole to upload to for some reason. It takes ages and seems to crash 1 out of 3 times halfway through an upload.

mirostones otm as well. I find Soundcloud to be pretty much a rubbish dump of wave forms these days (what a boring way to visualise music as well). I'm not going to go searching through it unless I'm directed straight to a profile.

Yeah interesting points dog Latin. Especially in regard to real time collab. I collab with a buddy through email, and basically take tracks and pool into audacity and add parts or additional production, or like he sends beats and I do melodies. More open collaborations with people you don’t know but resonate with influence wise would be cool, I’m only used to working with friends I know

Gotta applaud Bandcamp's content side, yes definitely, but I think this is for the benefit of listeners (and the artists who get covered). I'm talking of using the internet as a creative tool for artists as well as an end-user facing platform

xp Ross - I'm only thinking about the number of times I used to hear 'Oh yeah, we found each other on MySpace and started sending tracks to each other and eventually collaborating and that's how we made the album / started touring together / built a micro-scene'; or the number of stars who got discovered that way. There are Facebook forums but they don't really work for musicians cos you can't upload music to Facebook and it's just not so great for this specific job.

Almost sounds like if this platform doesn’t exist, it should. Like some code monkeys here could fire it up?

Multiple-xp's to Ross - I agree, I still write tonnes of music but just send it out to my promo list and haven't bothered trying to monetize anything for years. If anyone asks about a track on Soundcloud I just zap it to them.

@ Dog Latin - have you tried Splice? Its a good collaboration tool if you are using Ableton.

alas I don't use Ableton

internet "community" in general is in a very bad way right now

Yeah, Ilx is evidence of that

I'm only thinking about the number of times I used to hear 'Oh yeah, we found each other on MySpace and started sending tracks to each other and eventually collaborating and that's how we made the album / started touring together / built a micro-scene'

It's just as easy to contact an artist via Bandcamp as it ever was via MySpace. I really am confused about what you think is missing here.

The fact that "these days" the internet is not good for musicians has less to do with changing platforms of sharing music-- Bandcamp, Soundcloud, Myspace--

And more to do with the shifting paradigm of owning music and listening to music. Streaming and internet radio has become The Way that people listen to music, and so people are typically listening to curated lists instead of seeking to build and maintain communities

I myself don't know what motivates anybody to want to make music in 2018, as a "model aimed toward attaining dignity and getting paid" was a defining motivator toward finishing that song and getting it recorded, but in 2018 there is no money in making and recording songs and no dignity in it either

Sweet-ass glittery text for starters.

(xp Grawlix)

It's just as easy to contact an artist via Bandcamp as it ever was via MySpace. I really am confused about what you think is missing here.

― grawlix (unperson), Monday, July 23, 2018 2:45 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

How do you do this? Just email?

Cos that's a given (you can contact people on Facebook too), but the only reason I'd see this happening is to ask where an order is, or maybe for a promoter to get the band to visit on tour. Again, Bandcamp is more like an Etsy shop for finished work, it's not a creative tool or forum so much

internet "community" in general is in a very bad way right now

― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Monday, July 23, 2018 6:40 AM (forty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ooh otm

Fgti that’s a challiop.

Why do music? Why not?

It’s like breathing air

internet "community" in general is in a very bad way right now

― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Monday, July 23, 2018 6:40 AM (forty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ooh otm

― princess of hell (BradNelson), Monday, July 23, 2018 3:27 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I guess so? It's less about little pockets of interest and more a mire of friends and strangers jumping in and out of conversation

since the advent of Facebook it feels like this opportunity to collaborate and share tunes has become increasingly clunky and lacking in versatility

don't think i'd agree with this. we have more options than ever now. back in the day not everyone had broadband, now, that stuff is included in your wireless plan. it's so easy to throw a new song up on youtube, or soundcloud, or bandcamp. it's not terribly difficult to get material on iTunes even.

i was mostly in a DIY scene and Myspace/Facebook was a monumental help in providing free access, publicity, networking, etc. so many tours i have been on that were entirely arranged through Facebook, contacting venues, coordinating tours, etc. you could see this happening with Myspace but Facebook was so much easier to use.

i don't really agree that the internet is bad for musicians. it is likely bad for the outmoded industry models and no doubt there is drama there but there is going to be drama no matter what in any social scene. it's a huge boon for DIY communities all over the world

who came out of mp3.com?

i’d guess that if you did a little digging those “myspace success stories” were helped on their way by savvy behind the scenes machinations from connected people, much like today’s (insert platform here) upstarts.

not disagreeing with the premise of this thread mind you (post malone, ugh) but just saying that not buying into hype is key

of course there are ways to do these things if you like, i guess i'm just disappointed it's not just a bit... better? Like, just the shitness of Soundcloud and the lack of usability with Facebook. It just feels so obvious that with today's technology there could be a far better platform than what we have

re: mp3.com, the forum I ran used it to sell all our compilations, out of which a good few electronic artists went on to release on Warp, Planet-Mu etc

Hmmm. I find myself mostly agreeing with unperson and fgti here.

If I want to collaborate with someone I just... do it? Using whatever pathway is mutually convenient. It's not like there's a magical combination of tools and interfaces that will be the tipping point between doing a project and not doing it. Make it slightly easier or slightly harder, it won't change what I set out to accomplish.

I've used Soundcloud and Dropbox and Bandcamp; I've taken emailed tracks and added stuff and emailed them back. For me, Soundcloud works OK as an archive of previous work. If someone wants to record or perform something I've written, I can give them an idea of what it sounds like. When my band(s) perform(s), I put the live tracks up there so that our far-flung friends and families can hear kinda what it sounded like. But I don't cruise around Soundcloud or Bandcamp looking for the Next New Thing; I just don't have the energy and the signal-to-noise ratio will always be lopsided.

THAT SAID, I also agree with everybody else. If what you're trying to do is promote your music, sell your music, get your music listened to by people who don't already know you? Yeah, the internet sucks.

But so does every other way of doing those things.

In the 80s and 90s I used to walk around with photocopied flyers and a staple gun. It was mostly a waste of time. We played to our boyfriends/girlfriends/roomates/coworkers, and whoever was at the bar. Sometimes it was just my girlfriend, my parents, and the bartender, and literally no one else. Sometimes we went on college radio stations and did an in-studio appearance. I'm sure the five people who heard those appearances were deeply moved... moved, that is, to stay in their dorms and get high while watching X-Files.

Personally I have no ideas about improving that situation. It has always been a crapshoot.

fuck all that other noise and self flagellation, passion is passion

Not exactly the case for me, I can admit that one of the main things I'm after is a sense of community and some level of validation for what I'm doing. If I wasn't getting that I would keep trying, but the mentality that I'm just expressing creativity in a vacuum doesn't work for me.

Personally, Twitter + Soundcloud/Bandcamp has functioned as a decent Myspace replacement. I rarely discover anyone's music by searching around on Sc/Bc anymore, but follow links or people from Twitter.

For me, maybe the most frustrating thing is the disconnect between that and an irl music scene. It seems ridiculous that Facebook events are still the main way to get the word out about a show/party, obviously there are a lot of issues with that. But that also coincides with getting older, not being able to rely on friends or a social group going to shows, and not being very connected to the age group that is presumably still going out to dance or hear music. Buuuut, I also have the distinct sense that music is not the driving force behind socializing like it was when I was in my 20s.

PS Willl, pls link to your Soundcloud ;)

@ Jordan - I stopped paying for a subscription recently so it kind of cuts off abruptly at 2009 - before that there was a load of breaksteppy stuff on there. I'll probably resubscribe next time I try and actually promote anything: https://soundcloud.com/wascal *

I just finished a job lot of new jacking house over the last month or so for a party up in the Welsh hills last weekend so those will probably be online in the next month or so - I have a feeling it won't be many Ilxor's bag tbh.

*Terrible, terrible artist name I know, but it kind of stuck from many years ago.

a lot of the promotion involved in releasing music has shifted to having a curated facebook / instagram / twitter presence

^^^this and I hate it

music is not the driving force behind socializing like it was when I was in my 20s.

it definitely is not, so some of this is about a generational divide (borne largely of streaming services/generally devaluing of music imo) for those of us that are older and can remember when having a "scene" of people you connected to/saw on a regular basis at shows was a thing

But that also coincides with getting older, not being able to rely on friends or a social group going to shows, and not being very connected to the age group that is presumably still going out to dance or hear music. Buuuut, I also have the distinct sense that music is not the driving force behind socializing like it was when I was in my 20s.

All of this, yes.

Personally I try to support my friends' creative endeavors as a golden rule / karmic thing (given that I want people to support my creative endeavors).

But it's a waste of energy to be angry about the fact that suburban parents of young children might be reluctant to hire a babysitter so they can go out on a weeknight to a sketchy part of town (with zero parking and iffy transit) and wait three hours to hear 20 minutes of amateur ambient space-rock while drinking $12 bottles of Corona.

I love music (TM), but I have a pretty high threshold for hiring a babysitter and going to who-knows-where to wait two hours to hear 15 minutes of minutes of amateur acoustic punk-folk while drinking $15 bottles of Bass personally, so I don't judge the legions of people who stay away from my shows.

Ditto even for the comparatively low-commitment step of shlurping around Soundcloud or Bandcamp for exciting new sounds and liking people's tracks. I already have a lot of records (so do most of us) and a lot of sources of reliable recommendations for new things I'd like (so do most of us).

I don't personally have the energy to overcome the signal-to-noise ratio of the entire internet just in case there is one gorgeous baby somewhere out there in the bathwater. Similarly, I highly doubt that a browsing internet rando has a burning need for something that I've created. And I'm fine with that.

for the vast majority of musicians and artists in general, there is no money, no dignity. the internet is not very good for musicians, but then again, nothing is very good for musicians. and that's how i ended up in the rusted root drum circle

soundcloud and mixcloud are for listening to music or dj mixes from artists you like ime, though i do discover a lot of other mixes and discover music via asking the artists what it is.

spotify shows me music i hadn't heard sometimes, via their use of data on me.

twitter is good for discussions about anything i am interested in and it connects the artist to the fan in a way beyond anything yet, ime. there are a lot of things to dislike about twitter, to say the least, but the corners of it where it connects me to people with similar interests or doing similar creative pursuits are invaluable.

i dunno what 'good for musicians' means in this context tho, or how myspace was better. rather than just say older and different. a major part of the problem for musicians, presumably, is that people don't have to buy their music anymore, and whether they buy it or stream it, the spread of choice is so vast that your chances of consolidating any major support are pretty slim. i mean apart from via gigging or djing or whatever.

but i would say as far as tools to promote yourself go we are living in a golden age.

in the future every body builder will have 15 promoted instagram posts of fame

Was thinking about this when I was in Seattle last week, talking to some people at a bar. Mid 20s probably, lots of tattoos, work at bike shops, etc...I would think it would be a given that they would have some level of awareness of a music scene (friends in bands at least), but nope, zero. I know that's super anecdotal and I also have lots of music nerd friends in Seattle, but still felt a little bizarre to me and indicative of how things have changed.

xp to shakey

Karl says in 10 words what takes me 200 words to say.

ha, well usually that ratio is flipped! :)

Fgti that’s a challiop.

Why do music? Why not?

― Ross, Monday, July 23, 2018 10:35 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It’s like breathing air

― Ross, Monday, July 23, 2018 10:35 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When I worked at the CBC, there was a press release from a singer-songwriter out of B.C. who had, as her tagline, "Why music? Why breathing?"

If you personally equivocate your biological gaseous requirements with a model of making and recording music for the purposes of attractive attention, and subsequently, social currency and capital, and respect within your family and your community-- if this seems like breathing to you, then I cannot help you--

And furthermore the simile of music-making to breathing is aesthetically ugly, not something I find beautiful, despite being an appreciator of music and a consumer of oxygen

I absolutely have observed in myself and in others that music-- especially good music, that is, music that is good enough for others to eventually hear-- music is made with a final product in mind, and that final product is a single, or an album, and it will be played in public, and people will make use of it, and there will be a palpable response to its arrival, either in the form of applause or cash money or nice reviews. I believe that having a fixed and believable final state of one's music is an intrinsic part of many people's music making process. Even with an outsider artist like Tonetta, like Jandek, there is something there, some desired result.

What is there now? I still derive a thrill of pleasure at a well-played show, and a well-done mix, but, to put it succinctly, "my dreams are dead", and it's not just because I'm old and over it, I think that it's increasingly hard for emerging musicians to visualize a positive result of their time and financial investment

The most I can hope for these days is the dopamine rush that accompanies every "otm" my posts receive. Living my dream!

otm

fwiw otm x2

what you're talking about is one way of making and distributing music that is incredibly rare: music as a vocation

everyone else has to find a different reason to make music, or to make art in general, once the hope that there will be a consistent "public" for their work has finally been extinguished. i'm still trying to figure that out myself.

I think that it's increasingly hard for emerging musicians to visualize a positive result of their time and financial investment

i think maybe more than 50% of my therapy time is spent discussing what to do after this realization? or shifting the meaning of "positive result" to something that is closer to "i know that i wrote a good song, or made a good video or animation or whatever bullshit i made that no one saw" rather than "i sold enough copies of my new LP to finance the next one"

for me (and tbh it's always been this way) the key thing is to remember that the activity is more important than the result.

What is there now? I still derive a thrill of pleasure at a well-played show, and a well-done mix, but, to put it succinctly, "my dreams are dead", and it's not just because I'm old and over it, I think that it's increasingly hard for emerging musicians to visualize a positive result of their time and financial investment

otm and needless to say this applies to a lot of creative work

the activity is definitely more important the result, maybe one day my brain will actually understand that

but i also feel like i live in a world where results >>>>>>>>>

Yes fgti that wasn’t a great comparison on my part. I wanted to express that music is a natural thing. Saying this it took me 8 years to release a follow up to my 2010 record. As far as the dream being dead, personally my aim has never been to do this as a career but rather a glorified hobby. I see music making as a way to communicate and transcend this earth, and it’s therapeutic for me to play for friends and improvise on a piano. I started because Tori was my biggest influence, and I will continue as long as I feel like something needs to be expressed - which is not always.

After completing a record I generally dont want to hear it again due to the repetition involved in producing it, but on to the next thing instead or if nothing, living life.

I'm not sure that it is! The feeling of accomplishing something is nice but it's also solitary, time-consuming, and anxiety-producing.

(this goes for making music on my own, not for playing in bands or DJing, which is more social and fun, as long as the people are good and the show isn't a total bust obv)

xp

fgti, is it possible that a lot of us have simply reached a saturation point?

There is no shortage of excellent music, old and new. It's not like we're stuck in rural Appalachia in 1929 or Britain in 1959 or suburban America in 1979, feeling bored and disappointed with our available entertainment choices. Y'know, hungering for the next shipment of fresh sounds. Rushing home to tear open the latest import cut-out EP that we'd read about in an underground zine and getting it on the turntable.

I'm guessing everybody here has a music library with thousands, if not tens of thousands, of pieces of music, including stuff they're not bored with yet. Further, I don't think anybody here has listened to everything released between AD 1750 to last Thursday, and is just bored with it all.

Of course I sympathize with those who still feel they desperately need more, newer, fresher, more obscure, more scenester-ish, more local input. But that is a niche within a niche wrapped in an enigma with a nougaty center. Being disappointed that there isn't a correctly-shaped syringe to feed that jones seems a bit... petty? To me.

as far as music making, i have made multiple albums over the internet, i use the internet for pretty much every step in the process, from sending someone a demo, sharing a Drive folder with rough mixes during album recording, sending someone a link to a youtube video of a band you think the new song should sound like or we should cover, or whatever. all of this is easy, quick, and free. rad.

the downsides are like, what, you get ripped off? how is that different than the way it was before the internet. you can't post music directly on Facebook -- do you WANT to give Facebook ownership of your music data? use soundcloud or bandcamp or youtube or instagram a file sharer or a dozen other mostly free services. compare that to mailing out CDs at a cost of at least $5 per mailer (and more in physical labor time). none of this is needed w the internet. yes you might not get attention. that was always the case.

in general the promotional possibilities of the internet far outweigh any negatives. it is so easy to instantly send music, to coordinate tours/venues, to have a timeline of your stuff, etc. it is not just music either that is benefiting. lots of artists i know are using instagram or whatever to promote their work. for instance there is someone who travels and does stick-and-poke and uses instagram to promote her recent work as well as broadcasting upcoming availability. it is a hugely useful marketing tool, to spread awareness, to help small businesses, etc.

Sure it’s all those things Jordan.

I set time goals for myself when working tho, I won’t labour over one song more than a month. I know perfectionists that never release anything, you gotta know when to just say Ya Done

Anyway an aside but the jaded nature of music criticism is dispiriting - feels like any enthusiasm these days is frowned upon. This site is called I love music....

Regarding saturation points, it’s fair to feel nonplussed about music but I consider stagnation the enemy

in general the promotional possibilities of the internet far outweigh any negatives

how could this possibly be wrong

yes you might not get attention. that was always the case

otm

What would you want from an ideal music platform that isn't already being done piecemeal by other things?

i don't think there has ever been a time when doing a job in the arts was financially sound. you are better off going into finances or real estate. people have always ripped off artists and i don't think streaming companies are all that drastically eviler than the mob run companies of the 60's. ditto with major labels vs. indie record labels, they can all be crooked. there are always good people as well.

if you want to do into a performative line of work, as an artist, or a sports player, or an actor, be aware that very few make it. you have to want to do it largely for the craft. this is what makes you at heart a real artist and not a hack.

if you are a working artist, if you regularly play, if you are professional and play paying gigs, you can make it. i know many people that do this. some of them do corporate music cover gigs. some of them play original stuff. making money off the actual music has always been done by the money men rather than the artists. if you stay busy you tend to do alright.

making money off records/music as tangible object vs. live performance. the latter is and always will be the best venue.

i don't think there has ever been a time when doing a job in the arts was financially sound. you are better off going into finances or real estate

thanks dad

i think everybody here in a creative line of work is aware that almost no one "makes it"

Lol

Making it has always been as likely as winning the lottery. At least in the old model of gatekeeper owned distribution you could always blame your lack of audience on external factors. That’s harder now, and I think this brings an extra degree of existential malaise to the experience of having your music ignored.

question for those who have won the lottery:

how common is it for a musician that has "made it" to also have an agent/manager looking out for them?

Adam is not wrong, but at the same time it's not hard to see the 20th century as a weirdly anomalous golden age period where it was actually *possible* to make a fuck-ton of money as a musician if you were lucky/played your cards right. And even if you didn't make a fuck-ton it was possible to envision making a living by gigging constantly, playing sessions, etc. That has definitely not been true in most cultures for most of human history. But now it's gone, back to square one (ie folk culture)

i'm as wary of "the internet changed things" arguments as anyone else but i think maybe there's a distinction to be made between trying to express yourself or collaborate in relative silence and trying to express yourself or collaborate through a lot of noise, and the latter is what making art and promoting that art on the internet is like. of course you might not "make it." of course no one might hear you at all! but it becomes hard to focus or even remember why you are doing things when 1. previously guaranteed income evaporates never to return 2. everyone is so busily exhausting themselves refining their own presentations of self that it can feel like support systems that also once existed (scenes etc.) have evaporated leaving people in relative darkness and isolation in which to pursue creative work. which you can do for a few years before the second-guessing and insecurity and anxiety and pointlessness eat away at you totally, sure (only my personal experiences reflected in this sentence)

i mean, i'm in a band, i just made an album, and i don't know if we'll ever make another one bc it's a huge fuckin money pit even split between multiple people, especially afterward when i'm thinking to myself "huh only me and my friends will ever listen to this record to completion." i'm proud of it! i'm glad i did it! but one of the old forms of knowing something is finished has dissolved and mutated away from artists and has largely become difficult and pointless and another unit of oversaturation for ppl who experience music like ymp. i'm not saying it isn't extremely difficult and that craft isn't paramount and shouldn't be the driving force of any creative work; i'm saying that it feels like the few footholds that used to be there, that motivated artists to create more work and push forward, aren't, and its fucking discouraging when you're inside of it and feel like you can't grab onto anything secure

OTM

well, nice knowing I'm not alone ruminating on these things lol

so a new music platform with a built-in grant structure would be the solution?

idk i was just kinda rambling about my own problems

^ we all are.

obv things suck for musicians now and the internet leading to people not buying physical format musical products is a huge part of that but, i dunno, a lot of great, less popular bands from say the 80s in the uk had members working in the informal economy and/or being on the dole to make ends meet and the biography many of punk, indie, underground etc. bands from the late 20th century involves members leaving to go to university or whatever.

I have heard a very interesting argument from another friend, in the past, that the idea that "recorded music is saleable product" is itself an anomaly and one that should be corrected, along with the idea that one can/should derive an income from the creation of recorded music

That recorded music as an art form would be improved by removing accumulation-of-capital from the list of reasons for its creation

Maybe he just made that argument to make me feel shitty tho

Outic OTM re the 20th c. aberration/back to folk culture idea. Our angst is a result of viewing the 21st century through 20th c. eyes.

it's certainly an anomaly but it begs the question of what should replace it... nothing?

xp

Honestly one of the reasons I started gravitating closer to dance music is that the built-in functional, communal aspect was appealing (DJ mixes etc). Other paths (making more background-y music, sending beats to rappers, etc) seemed more likely to lead to isolation.

Also, DJs actually download tracks.

Outic OTM re the 20th c. aberration/back to folk culture idea. Our angst is a result of viewing the 21st century through 20th c. eyes.

Yeah, the entire recorded music industry was a bubble based on technological limitations. As those limitations fell away, the bubble collapsed.

Canada has a support structure in place for musicians though, no?

What should replace it? Just doing things for the love of it, and to entertain your tiny circle of interested friends? I feel like Emily Dickinson or Franz Kafka should be the models of future musicians motivations.

to expand on my point about returning to folk culture - what I was referring to was the production (and consumption) of music re-assuming several characteristics of old, pre-recording technology culture. Being performed primarily by unpaid "amateurs" for the specific purpose of entertaining themselves and their small social circle (define that however you like - friends & families, facebook/twitter followers, whatever). Aesthetics will be developed and defined not by a monolithic pop culture, but largely by the needs and interests of various, relatively isolated groups and subcultures. Previously the boundaries isolating different folk cultures was geographic, but in the internet age, while geography will still play a role, subcultures are going to be self-selected based on interests, aesthetic preferences, politics, etc.

There will probably always be an elite of professionals that are essentially bankrolled by patrons (major corporate label money).

Will music be qualitatively "better" or "worse"? I have no idea, hard to measure. What it will be is a labor of love supported strictly by much smaller, isolated communities.

xp

twitter for the community.
bandcamp for the hosting/music.
I have found the whole synthwave scene revolves around this tag-team.

patreon is the future obv, unfortunately i was struck by lightning while typing this sentence

I feel like Emily Dickinson or Franz Kafka should be the models of future musicians motivations.

I don't disagree with you point but... maybe pick more encouraging icons?

like, those are two really fucking miserable people

the recorded music industry is still a $4 bn business these days, but the vast vast majority of that cash filters to the top .001% of artists and their affiliates.

i feel like anyone doing creative work should get paid for it

society doesn't care about your feelings

hell yeah it doesn't

Emily Kafka is my next band name, thanks

Ha, yes that’s suppose I’m being deliberately glum there to make the point. Like, if the possibility of becoming lauded but never making a penny isn’t enough for you, maybe you’re in the wrong game.

I wonder how different poetry would be there had been a similar amount of cash/industry in it.

Maura just shared this on Twitter and it's relevant

http://gloriousnoise.com/2018/the-importance-of-artifact

Like, if the possibility of becoming lauded but never making a penny isn’t enough for you, maybe you’re in the wrong game.

maybe the problem isn’t me but the game

jk the problem is always me

somehow there's something less icky about a person directly commissioning an artist to make something for pay than the patreon model but I can't quite articulate why it feels that way.

because the latter involves the internet, duh

to expand on my point about returning to folk culture - what I was referring to was the production (and consumption) of music re-assuming several characteristics of old, pre-recording technology culture. Being performed primarily by unpaid "amateurs" for the specific purpose of entertaining themselves and their small social circle (define that however you like - friends & families, facebook/twitter followers, whatever). Aesthetics will be developed and defined not by a monolithic pop culture, but largely by the needs and interests of various, relatively isolated groups and subcultures. Previously the boundaries isolating different folk cultures was geographic, but in the internet age, while geography will still play a role, subcultures are going to be self-selected based on interests, aesthetic preferences, politics, etc.

Yeah, I discussed this with jazz guitarist/bassist Joe Morris a few years ago - the idea that the "star" musician is effectively dead and gone, replaced by "there's a guy in my town who's a really good guitar player." I mean, never mind selling a million records - think of how many musicians can't even afford to tour more than one or two states away from where they live.

we can't tour at all and never have! I don't really regret this decision tbh.

^ we could draw a distinction between how that change impacts artists vs how it impacts music. It’s obviously a bad deal for that guy, and it’s totally fair that we would reflect on that, but it doesn’t have to be the death of musIc as an art form (not that anyone said it was itt). Again, people still write poetry, right?

if someone writes a poem and no one reads it, is it still poetry?

Or crochet, maybe that’s a better parallel than poetry, given that there are zero professional crochet artists but it’s still a thing people do.

Simon Raymonde piece from last month entitled
‘There’s no money left in the music industry..’

http://www.longlivevinyl.net/simon-says-no-money-music-industry/

Maybe the question is, if you write a poem nobody reads are you really a poet?

http://www.longlivevinyl.net/simon-says-no-money-music-industry/

― piscesx, Monday, July 23, 2018 11:02 AM (fifty-three seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this url is a real journey

I’m crying a lot,tiredness.I feel like I’m banging my head against the wall.I make good and surprising records,I kill myself to make visual,in which I prove it’s about ideas and soul because god forbid anyone should give me a budget.But I get indifference in the industry.

— Roisin Murphy (@roisinmurphy) July 4, 2018

:(

yeah, there was a lot of reaction re her openness and honesty.
no idea if the outcome was/will be positive, but she certainly raised eyebrows.

And it's all so relative because everyone is (naturally) looking at the next step from where they already are. Obv a lot of artists would love to have her level of visibility, or think they would. Maybe it's worse if you've already experienced some financial success in an older version of the industry.

it definitely is not, so some of this is about a generational divide (borne largely of streaming services/generally devaluing of music imo) for those of us that are older and can remember when having a "scene" of people you connected to/saw on a regular basis at shows was a thing

― Οὖτις, Monday, July 23, 2018 11:47 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it’s still like this. im 26

i think the phenomena itt are more about u guys getting older than young ppl changing , or the internet changing in any fundamental way

flops stop reminding us you are young

you’re like 2 years older than me

i’m 31! but i’m glad i come off three years younger

i think the phenomena itt are more about u guys getting older than young ppl changing

this is entirely possible! tbf all I know is my world of young ppl and... most of them do not care about music/bands/shows/records the way my cohort did at their age afaict, it's not quite the cultural signifier/personality marker it was.

it's also a harsh truth that the percentage of people who care about music at all drops as you age. People move away from cities, have kids, stop going out, have to work more, most of their peers don't care about music anymore, it just drops away. I mean, count up how many 75 year olds you know with a record collection.

I think nobody questions that scenes exist, flops, but I wonder a bit about (say) national maintenance of a scene versus regional. Think there might be some more to the idea that we're returning to more strictly regional scenes in particular ways (unevenly applied, as always).

I've been out of the UK for about 15 years and now have a job where I employ mostly 16-22 year olds, and yeah, have noticed a distinct lack of the tribal musical affiliations which seemed to completely define moreorless everyone I knew in the 90s. But in some ways this seems positive, the arbitrary hate for certain genres seems to have faded away, they seem much less judgemental about other people's taste, and possibly more open too.

That observation in part reminds me of a standard framework that has grown up around the 1975 lately, that they don't have just 'one' sound, drew on many things, etc. I'd be hesitant to center them in any argument but it could still be a point to note.

I've been out of the UK for about 15 years and now have a job where I employ mostly 16-22 year olds, and yeah, have noticed a distinct lack of the tribal musical affiliations which seemed to completely define moreorless everyone I knew in the 90s. But in some ways this seems positive, the arbitrary hate for certain genres seems to have faded away, they seem much less judgemental about other people's taste, and possibly more open too.

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, July 23, 2018 8:26 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, music seems to be a lot less tribal now that it was even back in the '90s and it seems to me that people have accepted that music taste is an individual, personal thing rather than a tribalistic thing. That's a natural consequence of everything being available at any time at the touch of a button, whereas before you'd probably be exposed to albums you'd never heard before at friends houses etc. and it could turn into a more shared experience. Tribalism in metal will probably never die, though.

^^^ I was talking about this w my cousin a couple weeks ago and had to cite metal as an exception

\m/ ( -_- ) \m/

I am absolutely speaking from an "indie" perspective, which might be skewed-by-my-age (38)

Lots of electronic musicians and DJs I know, with low overhead, and high guarantees, they're doing fine

There are some periodic droughts but I think that people who use the internet to connect with other local acts, find events to attend, etc. is doing pretty well. I remember checking specific venues to see who was going to play and planning in advance, or relying on word of mouth to get my information on what shows were worth checking out. I'm loathe to congratulate facebook for anything, but the "7 friends are interested in this event" notifications keep surfacing a bunch of shows at venues I've forgotten about, or introducing me to local artists I hadn't heard of.

i also think the winner takes all aspects of online content dissemination/production have led to less widespread coverage of scenes that aren’t located in cities where media is concentrated. (the past coverage of which might have been an accident of timing and media reach in the first place.) but those scenes are still there, chugging along and putting on house shows and releasing cassettes and etc

I think nobody questions that scenes exist, flops, but I wonder a bit about (say) national maintenance of a scene versus regional. Think there might be some more to the idea that we're returning to more strictly regional scenes in particular ways (unevenly applied, as always).

― Ned Raggett, Monday, July 23, 2018 4:20 PM (fifty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

maybe. ive

lol mp3.com

lived in 3 canadian cities and all seem similar in having social music scenes. even in miserably unfriendly vancouver

the winner takes all aspects of online content dissemination/production have led to less widespread coverage of scenes

I misread this as first with the *music* as the content, but it's the ecosystem of reviews/etc, right?

I haven't listened to them because I'm afraid the whole enterprise is insufferable, but in lieu of the local music reviews that the alt-weeklies used to do, there are a few local podcasters and some writers who try to make their way in a system that doesn't have a lot of outlets for publicity. The state NPR affiliate spends a decent amount of time at least mentioning local music, even if their selection of music shows doesn't really cover all genres -- they had a stage at the recent music festival and recorded sets to present on-air at a later date. There might be a blurb for an entire large event in the national media, and local media's reach isn't what it was.

To an extent it's always kind of been winner-take-all at the national scale where, unless a local scene was well-defined enough to get a story in a music mag, publications were mostly covering artists who got major label releases out there, right?

I am 47.

When I was aged roughly 11 to 18 (1982 to 1989), I lived in a world where the music you liked was intimately bound up with your tribe and where you stood socially. There were the burnouts and the goth kids and the deadheads and the New Wavers and the hip-hoppers and the teenyboppers and the punks.

There was enough overlap to be interesting: you could like Broadway show tunes and the Cure and Duran Duran simultaneously. You could like the Dead and Skynyrd simultaneously. You could like the Who and the Clash simultaneously. You could like Ice-T and the Furs simultaneously.

But some overlaps just didn't happen much. There were probably people who were equally into Led Zeppelin and Debarge, but I didn't know them. You could like Lionel Richie and Culture Club, but also liking GnR was a bit harder to parse.

Honestly if that tribalism has truly faded, I say: good riddance.

P sure it has tbh and yes, good riddance.

I mean afaik

I dunno, I feel like at the height of the MTV / Top 40 radio era, it was really common to like both rock and pop. Maybe pop was music you didn't necessarily buy in album form, for a lot of "rock" kids... but who *didn't* like both MC Hammer and G'n'R? (I'm not using the Lionel Richie / Culture Club example, because they were earlier than G'n'R.)

If anything I feel like that era was maybe less "tribal," because MTV played rock, pop, hip-hop, etc. Now kids can block out everything except the music they're specifically into, right?

Right but perhaps it doesn't do as much to define where you get to sit in the cafeteria as it did in 1985?

Just speculating; I don't know because I haven't tried to figure out where I'm supposed to sit in a HS cafeteria for 30 years

I remember being really pissed back in the late 80s when I heard about a Prince concert in my area (this would have been the Sign O the Times tour) after the fact because it wasn't advertised on the radio station I listened to, or in the local paper. If the internet had existed I absolutely would have known about that show and gone to it.

I can't remember how I even learned about concerts in the pre-Internet era (major concerts like that, as opposed to "band flyer" shows)

Like my friends and I were front-row center to see Lou Reed on the "Magic & Loss" tour -- how'd we know to be first in line at the record store when the tix went on sale a few months prior? Not his Twitter feed...

but who *didn't* like both MC Hammer and G'n'R?

Me.

More into Vanilla Ice & Whitesnake, eh?

No, definitely neither of those.

I was 10, almost 11 when "U Can't Touch This" was released and my memory is pretty different from morrisp's. I do remember a distinction between rock kids (like myself) who listened to GnR or Aerosmith and pop kids who listened to MC Hammer.

In reality, a lot of people probably did listen to both but didn't want to admit to it.

they were both awful

Afaict, the 'these days' version of the Internet (Bandcamp/Soundcloud/Youtube/livestreaming/Skype lessons) is not bad for contemporary classical (and I think jazz) composers and musicians, in part for the reasons Adam gives. Most have to teach, do wedding/lounge gigs, or get a day job, which is no different from most times in history, but making music available to people is easier.

I feel like dedicating your life to be a musician would be fine, financially speaking, if there was stuff like rent control and more government grants. There is that reality we are all aware of, outside of the music world, that it is just getting harder and harder for non-STEM workers to justify their existence in the market, that wage are not following costs of living. I am not a musician, but I wish I could purchase more records than I do but I can't because I have debt, so this is a loss of revenue for musicians etc. What I am trying to say is what is crushing the spirit of musicians is the same stuff that is crushing other types of workers across many industries.

All the while Daniel Ek is worth 2.8 billion.

Wonder how much Phil Ek is worth

Not 2.8 billion I don't think.

I used to go to about 30 shows per year, at a rather steady pace of 2 or 3 per month. Then our city got that huge festival going, and as I am not a big crowd + heatwave person I just stopped seeing as many bands as I used to and that did pull me away from the scene.

I’ve spent a lot of time in the last few years smugly congratulating myself for moving beyond tribalism. But I notice that the end of people using music as a way to define themselves coincided with the end of people buying music, so maybe the dumb tribalism was a necessary condition of a world that enables music as a career choice.

the end of people using music as a way to define themselves coincided with the end of people buying music

I don't think there's a causal relationship here, both are a reflection of the devaluing of music - ie, if something is readily available and costs nothing, why invest any value in it, either social or economic? It obviously isn't worth anything.

tbf I enjoy lots of things that have no social or economic value. making music is something like growing a plant or a tree - it has no real recognized economic value and other people probably don't give a shit that I have a rhododendron or whatever but I still enjoy it.

age is also a thing. bands that were big enough to keep touring get the soft-focus haze of hindsight. music that wasn’t something you were into twenty years ago but heard randomly for decades seems ok, for many people

there’s a Journey/Def Leppard show in town today that my coworker is going to with his wife and I doubt either’s really that into it, but their kids are with his mom for a few days so it’s convenient

I’ll settle for correlation over causation. But people can often use the most arbitrary and economically insignificant things to signal affiliations. What color you paint your front door. What coffee chain you frequent.

Οὖτις - I think people still value music; they just express that value in ways other than buying records.

In the past week I: played at a reasonably well-attended acoustic open mic. I watched four documentaries about musicians (Peter Green, Martin Garrix, Lowell George, and Lady Gaga). And I went to two large concerts (Janelle Monae and Pixies/Weezer).

At every moment of this journey, I noticed large numbers of people who were interested in and engaged with music. Nobody bought a record, but everyone I encountered was 110% on board re: music.

Wow, a lot of pessimistic takes on making music itt. As much as I agree with the sentiment of "the activity is more important than the result", I love the results! Often listen to my own stuff and find it both hilarious and inspired, surprised at the distance between where I am now and where I was when I wrote and recorded.

I've had lots of support from friends, who (for reasons that are in part beyond me) really enjoy listening to the stuff too. And it's never been easier to share it than now - I use SC profiles, YT channels, Spotify artist pages... and this whole infrastructure is available to me for free even though hardly any of my tracks have more than 1000 plays (of which half surely come from people I know)

it is just getting harder and harder for non-STEM workers to justify their existence in the market
can someone point me to an appropriate thread for discussing this idea?

I am with niels: that's a rich tangent. But I don't know what the right thread is either. Perhaps create one?

short version: I can work successfully in STEM-adjacent fields precisely because of my background in the arts and humanities (English/philosophy), but it does take a near-continuous PR effort. For which a pro bullshitter is well-positioned, due again to the arts/humanities background; it is a tidy circle.

I'm not sure why STEM work is assumed to be completely safe either

half of the workers in actual labs that I know are constantly worried that research direction will change or that most of their job will be automated and head count will drop because swabbing things on to petri dishes or spinning down samples in a centrifuge is grunt work

yes and: if you have a background in the humanities, especially rhetoric, you will be way better at persuading employers of your value.

i wonder what a spotify for STEM would be like

Just Might as well be walking on the sun on repeat

http://time.com/money/4189471/stem-graduates-highest-starting-salaries/

According to a new report from the National Association of Colleges and Employers, more than half the employers surveyed said they planned to hire graduates with bachelor’s degrees in STEM fields, making them the most sought-after candidates entering the job market.

Engineers are expected to make an average of $64,891 right out of school in 2016—a 3% increase over their projected earnings in 2015. Computer science majors, who are expected to take home $61,321, rank as a close second. Math and science majors trail slightly with an average starting salary of $55,087.

Education and humanities majors ranked at the bottom of the list, with expected starting salaries of $34,891 and $46,065, respectively.

Not saying these aren't anxious times for STEM graduates/workers. Everyone is affected by inequality as policy, automation, climate change, etc. However, it's hard to argue there isn't a significant gap with performance artists for example.

Performance artists have never been in great employment demand (for those particular skills), outside of the usual industries — regional theaters, cruise ships, etc. Performers who write & perform original material, even less so. How is the gig economy these days? Isn’t that the real question

yes and: if you have a background in the humanities, especially rhetoric, you will be way better at persuading employers of your value.

― nonsensei (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, July 24, 2018 10:50 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

citation very incredibly much needed

do you WANT to give Facebook ownership of your music data? use soundcloud or bandcamp or youtube or instagram

lol

at any rate, to return things somewhat to the original topic, the focus on "scenes" as applied to music has always been depressing to me. I realize it was ever thus, it's just that virtually every music scene -- or anything scene, really -- is designed to keep people like me out. the internet has been good in that regard because I can find out about and support music without having to ingratiate myself to the correct set of 15 cool kids in bushwick who would probably hate me in principle and in person

to go way back to a YMP post

Honestly if that tribalism has truly faded, I say: good riddance.

it hasn't faded at all, it just doesn't use music as a marker

Other industries figured out how to more effectively monetize tribalism.

As in, you probably wont be a hardcore punk after 30, but you can be a hardcore libertarian till the day you die.

multi-xp lol yeah I meant job security isn't evenly distributed across STEM careers

it's still insanely more likely when it comes to jobs that pay

Was music a safe ticket to lucrative and secure employment at some point in history?

Prob in the 1700s

Art was commissioned a lot more and it was a considerable amount of money more back then

Now you get a loan

I mean at one point almost everyone was a serf so.. 100% employment

idk -- maybe i just have never tried to be musically involved during other eras, but this era seems to be (to me, from my perspective) one of lowered barriers to entry, which yields a more diverse and potentially interesting crop of musical artists because people who had been outside (not involved in or excluded from these communities or groups from previous eras of musical activity) are suddenly in control of the same tools, or similar tools, as people who previously held all of the power.

with ease of recording and mixing one's own stuff to the ease of sharing it on bandcamp or soundcloud and then telling people about it on social media -- all of the barriers to entry are at least lowered to people in possession of those tools and ideas they are willing to develop. maybe this is bad for some groups of musical people but it's good for me! i can be who i want to be now, and collaborate with people who have similar interests. it's great! when i was a kid all i had was a tape recorder and no one to help me. now? i have the tools and i can do it myself. that's an improvement imo.

^^excellent point

I actually considered posting "it's all been downhill since the decline of royal patronage" earlier. xp

LL otm

La Lechera also makes excellent points. xp!

the one trend i've noticed in young people music scenes in north america is a shift away from bands and towards solo electronic projects who do lucrative dj gigs. it surely has something to do with economics but i think it's also just a cultural shift

It's an excellent post, LL. And I see it tying into the larger question this way: what, exactly, is valued, what is value, and where does it come from? You've made a clear case here that both the superstar dream model and the 'our band could be your life' model are limiting (thinking in part about people who literally can't/will never be able to put in that kind of time and commitment), while the romanticism of the 'record on four-track in your bedroom and make 50 tapes' model is outdated in an era of more immediate connection.

the lowered barrier to entry is undoubtedly great, but the same issue still exists in getting people to care about unfamiliar artists. the barrier's not just "a fuckton of capital" anymore but it is "a fuckton of capital and/or a fuckton of social capital"

How do you develop your own value within the community? "Where does it come from" is a very interesting question too imo. My guess is that because musicians aren't a monolith, it comes from different places for people with different musical goals.

Also I have found that "we jam econo" is more useful as an ethos than "our band could be your life" because one is something that is within my control and the other is definitely not.

young people music scenes in north america is a shift away from bands and towards solo electronic projects who do lucrative dj gigs.

"lucrative"

xp Right, definitely.

To Katherine: I think that's key but I also think that's part of what can be called a retreat from the idea that there's a way to know about 'everything.' While always impossible, the illusion of being reasonably au courant held for a long time due to limitations in terms of cultural production. With that gone, easier now to say "Well this is of interest" as opposed to "This is era/genre defining." And more truthful. (Obv more can be said.)

yeah LL post is good. i think there's an interesting unintended side-effect to the lowering of barriers in that the absolute diversity of music increases but the average diversity decreases. for every creative genius who would previously have been locked out enter and make original stuff, there are 20 derivative synth solo projects (or whatever). since individual listeners only see a small non-random snapshot of all music, relative diversity is more important to our perceptions. kind of a weird cognitive bias we have. it can give the impression that music is becoming more samey or less creative, even if globally that's not the case

Basically the explosion of the amount of stuff means that universality is less and less of a factor. 'Everyone' (not really but bear with me) can hear something now; rolling the dice and assuming you can place a marker that 'everyone' will in a practical and unavoidable sense continues to ebb. These are truisms based on long trends but they are further accelerating.

"lucrative"

― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, July 24, 2018 12:39 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

zing! but you know, it's relative. several of my friends live off djing now, in the sense of not working side jobs. none of my friends in bands ever did that

Also the glass-half-full take on the cliquish scenes and social capital that Katherine is complaining about is that a lot of exciting music still comes out of irl communities, people supporting and motivating each other, which is a good thing imo (although can be frustrating if you're outside of it, sure).

xp

So I was writing a long post in the best multi-album run 2010+ thread detailing that there's been a whole bunch of female musicians that have been on really good runs this decade, at least to me. I haven't statically compared the 2010s to preceding decades, but to my unscientific eye it seems to me like we are living in an outlier so far. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case I was wondering if female musicians/female critics saw a levelling of the playing field for them over the past few years? And if yes (or no!) if it is thanks to the internet?

I'm probably not the best data point here as far as female critics, but as far as female musicians, then the playing field is more level if you have PR and/or social capital, are young, and working in a currently trendy genre, but otherwise not remotely. (see the Roisin Murphy quote upthread). but I wouldn't attribute it to the internet, nor overt sexism, just the bleak reality that large swaths of people don't care about female musicians and especially don't care about ones outside that narrow purview.

feel for roisin murphy re that quote, damn

also with niels on the negativity itt

Personally I want to read more about the broken dreams of musicians itt, it is sweetly cathartic.