"It's over, nobody listens to techno!" – Eminem Vs. Moby

I always think about how Eminem is one of the most enduring, popular artists of our time, and any kid getting into his catalog is gonna be bombarded with all this completely alien ca. 1999 ephemera like Tom Green's "The Bum Bum Song," the Bloodhound Gang and a skit where the members of Insane Clown Posse blow someone

"The Bum Bum Song" reference was completely lost on me at the time, because MuchMusic didn't regularly play Tom Green's music at the time, outside of "Check the O.R.".

Eminem was not only the greatest rapper working for about two years, he was so good in those two years that he remains one of the best rappers in history. However, he also did D12, had a bunch of gross stuff on his good records, and has made eight billion terrible records since that time.

Moby has made a mere 1 million boring records, plus a handful of enjoyable-to-fun records as well, and the Long Ambients show he can still be good.

Moby invented Knob Touch in an interview. Eminem learnt that porn was on the internet in an interview, in 2009, and promptly ended the interview.

I think I have to give it to Moby, though Eminem was once a better musician than Moby has ever been.

"The Bum Bum Song" reference was completely lost on me at the time

This is completely lost on me at this time.

One of them should've stopped in 2000 and the other one might as well have done

Moby has stuff that has aged well, I'm just not sure if Play is amongst that.

That song above, used in a 2016 comic book movie that grossed $325 million dollars and aimed at kids born when the song came out, has references to Tom Green, Lynne Chaney, Malcolm McLaren, the burgeoning career of Obie Trice, a 15 year old public legal battle with his mom, Chris Kirkpatrick and a line beamed from a time where it was more acceptable to call someone a fag in a song. It makes no logical sense.

Eminem had the good sense to limit his most ephemeral, topical bars to about one song/video per album, so that was smart.

For those of you blessedly ignorant of Tom Green:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJfnOdVeHxg

I thought the Tom Green reference was limited to Real Slim Shady.

I don't really feel like relistening to Without Me to confirm that.

Eminem doesn't have anything that touches "We Are All Made of Stars," so Moby. believe me I loved Eminem at the time and still like/love most of the singles (the harpsichord on "The Real Slim Shady" was so beautiful and strange and alluring to me as a kid), but he gets old real fast. Moby has some all-timers.

Eminem's Bum Bum song reference is Biggie's "remember Rappin Duke" line for people who've seen Deadpool 2

i'll take Moby's discography but he seems like such a bad person that i vote Eminem

both of their discographies could vanish from the face of the earth and we would all be the better for it. tbf I wouldn't notice.

I probably like "Purple Pills" better than any Moby song.

what could have been

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNDJ7NSFNsI

Moby is more or less a fake musician but otoh this is more twisted than any classic Eminem joint https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WywzWjZATKA

this is still classic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc_39aTxsP0

just the Triumph part not the Eminem part

I almost included the Triumph video with my original post.

Classic!

I voted "Without Me" #10 on my 2002 year-end ballot because it made me laugh: "Even the wildly
misplaced attack on Moby is hilarious--I don't have strong feelings about Moby one way
or the other, but I do know that middle-school kids, who make up a sizeable part of
Eminem's core audience, have never even heard of Moby! He may as well have gone after
Klaus Voormann or Edgar Froese."

both of their discographies could vanish from the face of the earth and we would all be the better for it. tbf I wouldn't notice.

this!

I hate moby as a person, so eminem

I hate moby as a person, so eminem

Kinda baffled by this. What did Moby do that makes him more loathsome than Eminem, who's always struck me as the sludge trapped in the crevices of a shower door come to life?

Someone posted some articles of an artist who toured with moby (aphex twin and the orb also featured iirc) and he comes off precisely as the class of human I always thought he was.

I mean I know Eminem is dodgy but he has never pretended being better than he is. Moby comes as a self-righteous, talentless hack. I can’t remember where I found the article but I’m sure it has been discussed in here before.

the tales are fucking endless. but the one that gets me the most is really one of the more innocuous ones, as detailed in this infamous podcast episode https://www.gimletmedia.com/heavyweight/2-gregor

http://inthemix.junkee.com/my-1993-rave-adventure-with-moby/19934

Here is the one I was talking about.

I don’t know why it sends to another announcement in mobile. From google it still works:

https://www.google.com.mx/amp/inthemix.junkee.com/my-1993-rave-adventure-with-moby/19934/amp

Voting for Moby because a) he has one song I like ("Honey") to Eminem's zero, and b) he was (and remains) the far easier of the two for me to ignore. Admittedly, working in a record store during the peak of Eminem's fame pushed what would have otherwise been a casual dislike of him into an outright loathing that has never gone away.

I like Moby and Eminem 🤷🏻‍♂️

Eminem's production on 'Renegade' is a better beat than anything I've heard from Moby.

That’s a terrible opinion

Moby was amazing at times:

https://youtu.be/DiKKYHH4ilo

Also:

https://youtu.be/W2zZMiBlQSI

a friend claimed to me that a friend claimed to him that when she went out with moby he spent the entire time describing "his ideas for how boggle could be modified to make it a better game"

Is this about who had a more rotten personality? Let me get this straight, among other things:

Eminem: regularly insulted his on again off again wife in the press, joked about beating her up and killing her, and then wrote a song about her where he did exactly that.

Moby: acted like an entitled dick towards people,sometimes.

Moby's bio was amazing too. FWIW, two years after "See the Lights", he became an alcoholic and went back to partying with his band every night, in case anyone is seriously hung up about that aspect of his personality.

Eminem doesn't have anything that touches "We Are All Made of Stars," so Moby.

Come on mane, "Stan" pisses on that song from a great height

I agree about how he's only bearable in small doses but six or seven songs which represent Em at the height of his powers as a writer which I suspect will still sound amazing for many more years

I'm not a fan of either (although I did like Moby's Animal Rights back in the day) so this would basically be "TS: Go vs. Stan", except Without Me is one of my least-favourite songs of all time so Moby wins by default.

when I say I'd take Moby's music over Em's it's cuz I'm old, not because it's better (although I really do like EIR/Play/18)

i haven't paid really any attention to anything moby has done since play but everything is wrong is an important record for me personally and i'll always love it deeply

even at his best eminem is annoying

a friend claimed to me that a friend claimed to him that when she went out with moby he spent the entire time describing "his ideas for how boggle could be modified to make it a better game"

Definitely voting Moby now.

Moby was amazing at times:

https://youtu.be/DiKKYHH4ilo

― Tim F, Thursday, November 1, 2018 3:10 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Also:

https://youtu.be/W2zZMiBlQSI

― Tim F, Thursday, November 1, 2018 3:14 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yea these are so good

also "feeling so real" & "everytime you touch me" are so exhilarating & fun

yea Moby has more tunes I like than Eminem, who even at his peak was doing stuff like basing entire songs off the Mr. Mackey voice. and while Moby is clearly kind of dickish (though he's probably mellowed in the last 25 years), Eminem strikes me a legitimately bad person

all these stories that moby was a shit are from a long time ago.

are there more recent examples that he is still an arrogant sod, or, has he realised the errors of his ways and grown up.

I still listen to his 'destroyed' album a lot (no guest vocalists, late night lonely ambi-techno).

of course I voted moby as I never really enjoyed Eminem even at the height of his skills.

I tried to find the techno track that sampled the "nobody listens to techno" line, either the one I found was a different track or it's much worse than I remembered.

most dated line in "the real slim shady"

after this song came out moby did an interview with mtv defending himself saying "i haven't put out a techno record in ten years, maybe more" and you can feel him pushing imaginary glasses up his nose as he's saying it

for that i'm voting moby

That’s a terrible opinion

― 5th Ward Weeaboo (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, October 31, 2018 11:51 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's a really good beat though.

lol I wonder if back in 1999 the 1981 shooting of Jim Brady was something a bunch of 14 year olds were hip to

I like a couple early Em songs and productions, including "Renegade," and still listen to early Moby, including the first album and the Move EP, to me his most sustained work.

after this song came out moby did an interview with mtv defending himself saying "i haven't put out a techno record in ten years, maybe more" and you can feel him pushing imaginary glasses up his nose as he's saying it

for that i'm voting moby

― princess of hell (BradNelson), Thursday, 1 November 2018 1:51 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is appropriate, however also IMO the best thing about "nobody listens to techno" as a line is how little Eminem knew or cared what Moby actually sounded like.

That song above, used in a 2016 comic book movie that grossed $325 million dollars and aimed at kids born when the song came out, has references to Tom Green, Lynne Chaney, Malcolm McLaren

I also don't remember McLaren being a big topic of interest around the turn of the millennium

Moby. Eminem at his self-absorbed worst (coupled with that delivery) is totally repellent

still laughing at the idea of Eminem calling out Edgar Froese

(ok that Unloved Symphony is pretty great, also I will admit that I like 'Thousand' too)

it's over, nobody listens to ed froese

Eminem at his self-absorbed worst (coupled with that delivery) is totally repellent

good Moby content imo: https://www.gimletmedia.com/heavyweight/2-gregor

Eminem was incredibly talented but his music expressed feelings and ideas (and prejudices) I don’t enjoy engaging with so I’ve spent very little time with his music. To the contrary, the one moby album I had in high school, Play, got a lot of spins and I have positive feelings toward it.

I must've been one of the only people who bought it for "Bodyrock", assuming that Moby was a dude in the vein of the Chemical Brothers/Fatboy Slim/Lo-Fidelity All-Stars

still liked the album, though it took a while. It's embedded in my memory to a pretty significant degree - every time I hear it, it's like I'm delivering papers again

did moby ever find out why his soul felt so bad

all the supermodels in nyc like his music but they don't want to hang out tbf

was gonna vote for eminem anyway, but wanted to say that i reeeeallly hate natural blues

i really liked it when it came out but nowadays i find most of play to be unlistenable

all the best moby is 95 or earlier imo

I remember buying Animal Rights when it came out and being very "..." about the change in direction. However it came with a bonus disc "Little Idiot" which was basically my introduction to ambient music as a full-fledged concept. Its uneventfulness seemed quite radical to 14 yr old me, though listening back on youtube it now sounds like an occasionally heavyhanded Kompakt Pop Ambient album.

Indeed something about Moby's (90s) melodic heavy-handedness generally feels both dated in a way a lot of 90s dance music doesn't and is also kinda loveable? He feels like the only dance music "star" who really embodied (or purported to embody) PLUR.

e.g. check "Into The Blue (Spiritual Mix)" or "Hymn (European Mix)". These feel like the kind of techno tracks you'd hear on compilations of dubious origins featuring no artist names and tacky computer graphic covers and called 'Cosmic Techno' or similar. Of the former, a commenter on discogs.com notes enticingly, "In Italy this record has quite high valuations."

The "problem" for 90s Moby is that once you get past the stylistic diversity, the majority of tracks are very much "now watch me do (x) sub-genre", and pretty much every thing he tried his hand at was done at least a bit better by someone else - "Feeling So Real" is A- happy hardcore (Westbam remix probably takes it to an A), "Everytime You Touch Me" is A- handbag house and so on. The Move EP is the one time he felt like he was truly operating above journeyman status.

all of the Tom Green/Eminem/Moby junk only makes sense when viewed through the lens of late 90s MTV and, even at that time, was such a weird microcosm of Total Request Live

the implication was that Eminem was sitting around every day getting angry that boy bands, Britney Spears, and a music video by a guy on MTV were beating him on a call-in music video request show and he actually made songs and videos referencing all of the meta-culture of the show in order to tweak the scales

The "problem" for 90s Moby is that once you get past the stylistic diversity, the majority of tracks are very much "now watch me do (x) sub-genre", and pretty much every thing he tried his hand at was done at least a bit better by someone else - "Feeling So Real" is A- happy hardcore (Westbam remix probably takes it to an A), "Everytime You Touch Me" is A- handbag house and so on. The Move EP is the one time he felt like he was truly operating above journeyman status.

I agree. I was there at the time, and watching SPIN, Village Voice, etc go mad over the pleasant and occasionally worthwhile EIW confused me.

10 in SPIN iirc

"a skit where the members of Insane Clown Posse blow someone"

I gotta say that I go out of my way to listen to this occasionally: never fails to make me laff…

doesn't it seem that MM would have an appreciation for techno, being that he's been a creature of Detroit his whole life? Or is that like saying that a kid in Staten Island in 1979 would have necessarily been immersed in in No wave?

as a teenager in ohio who had never heard of happy hardcore or handbag house those moby tunes were revelations for me tbh

ndeed something about Moby's (90s) melodic heavy-handedness generally feels both dated in a way a lot of 90s dance music doesn't and is also kinda loveable? He feels like the only dance music "star" who really embodied (or purported to embody) PLUR.

yes totally, moby did seem like he was more connected to the idealist values of rave culture than most of the other names who blew up in the late 90s electronica mainstream

These feel like the kind of techno tracks you'd hear on compilations of dubious origins featuring no artist names and tacky computer graphic covers and called 'Cosmic Techno' or similar. Of the former, a commenter on discogs.com notes enticingly, "In Italy this record has quite high valuations."

ha otm and i think i went out and bought tons of these compilations after first hearing EIW and the 1992 s/t record. some of them were quite good

eminem has sucked for years, some of his old stuff doesn't hold up very well at all, and he is very annoying, but he never wrote this:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/food-stamps-shouldnt-pay-for-junk-1523315448

gotta vote eminem

Eminem doesn't have anything that touches "We Are All Made of Stars," so Moby.

Come on mane, "Stan" pisses on that song from a great height

― bedraggled vorticist (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, November 1, 2018 5:55 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Stan is great, so are most of the 99-02 singles, but "We Are All Made of Stars" is pop perfection! Classic video, too.

Most of the Eminem and Moby output from ca. 1993 to 2001 still rocks to me

we are all made of stans

who would you rather house-sit for, or have house-sit for you?

by all accounts moby is a huge asshole interpersonally so i would NOT want to house-sit for him since he'd probably be a real dick about a bunch of little things. if i didn't have to interact with him much i could imagine him house-sitting for me, feel like you could reliably get him to feed the cats and such.

https://pitchfork.com/news/moby-says-cia-agents-asked-him-to-spread-the-word-about-trump-and-russia/amp/

I would house-sit for Moby based on this slideshow (though he sold the house to Leonardo DiCaprio earlier this year):

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/04/28/garden/20110428-MOBY.html?ref=garden#1

Ironically I still feel Eminem has his shit together compared to moby, so I’d rather have Em house sit. Of course I’d prefer to house sit for him as well, his house is probably huge, has a pool and most importantly: ham in the fridge.

Moby’s house is probably non-descript besides probably still having that photo of him showing his dick hanging above his bed.

who would you rather house-sit for, or have house-sit for you?

― Philip Nunez, Thursday, November 1, 2018 12:52 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

moby for sure! there have been some good photo spreads of his places

lol xp eazy yes

this piece I did NINE YEARS ago was chill

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/play-10-years-later-mobys-track-by-track-guide-to-1999s-global-smash-80650/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/40129462/stan-an-eminem-song-from-2000-is-now-in-the-oxford-english-dictionary

i don't have any inclination to listen to any old eminem anymore but this by itself seems like a pretty profound sign

after the climate change wars if there are still textbooks then they're gonna be assigning 'stan' to english students like they're reading edwin arlington robinson or some shit

I was ten years old when Play came out and it felt like it was everywhere, which of course it was, but revisiting it via a quick skim on Youtube I had never taken it in as music properly, and wow some of it is really bad, "Why Does My Heart Feel So Bad" is even worse when you see it with the cynically manipulative video

crazy I've probably listened to Play 50+ times and can't remember anything after track 11

I sometimes wonder about the relationship between Eminem and the alt-right of today: I was starting high school when he first had hits and I remember his fans all being a certain type of classmate - entitled whiny boys who used "Jew" and "faggot" to insult people, and how normalised that all seemed in a way that twenty years later I find horrifying

I mean, teenagers will always be awful but Eminem managed to position himself as an icon to an audience who lapped up all that hate and vitriol

pbbbbblllltttttt

love all those Eminem songs where he says Jew

xxp I'm probably the same age as you and yeah. I remember downloading the MM LP freshman year of college just because I remembered it from high school and being like, man, I'm an 18 year old idiot and even to me this is so stupid and juvenile. Kinda nuts to think he was 28 years old when it came out!!

Em more of a misogynist than an anti-semite, tbf

I mean, it wasn't like Eminem existed in a bubble: you had nu-metal and South Park and Jackass and all different kinds of obnxiousness pervading the culture, but it was a fanbase that you could recognise immediately

I'm probably a couple years older than boxedjoy (Eminem wasn't a thing until a year or two after I left high school), but his experiences sound a lot like the ones I had waiting on his fans at my record store job. Whether there is an identifiable connection between Eminem and the alt.right is probably a bit of a stretch--there are certainly other, far more significant factors in play in the rise of the alt.right--but I don't think its at all crazy to notice similarities.

I think Eminem's misogyny is borne more out of confusion and fear than genuine hatred, looking at his awkward verse on "Smack That" where he sounds weirdly unhuman and asexual

Eminem, South Park and Jackass were all awesome and hilarious and smart and I'm sorry everyone in your highschool was giving you purple nurples because you were trying to school them to the ineffable beauty of Apichatpong Weerasethakul or whatever

Anyway, I'm glad that we are actually able to have this conversation now: to bring up any criticisms of Eminem in 1999/2000 was to shouted down by free speech warriors (now very much a cause of the alt.right).

I mean I'm not saying "Eminem gave rise to the alt-right" but there's something to be said for the way he normalised lyrics about violence and hate to a generation who are now of an age where they have influence and power

PC Culture is cancer am I right Whiney

holy shit, both of you stop posting

but there's something to be said for the way he normalised lyrics about violence and hate to a generation who are now of an age where they have influence and power

have you considered that he is awesome and hilarious, though

Say Tr*mp folks too, I'm sure.

Maybe Tom Green radicalized Eminem

Eminem, South Park and Jackass were all awesome and hilarious and smart

South Park was never smart

of those three, Jackass definitely had its moments. The other two can fuck off and die

Definitely the dirt poor kids who felt energized by Eminem giving a voice to white trash, South Park tapping into rural alienation and Jackass tapping into suburban alienation – definitely the first people I think of when I think of who has "influence and power" in America

The way to properly vote: imagine Eminem singing "We Are All Made of Stars" and Moby rapping "Just Lose It."

I mean I don't disagree about Eminem and South Park being smart and hilarious and awesome in various ways (I never bothered with Jackass because I'm not great with gross-out physical humour) but the joke of Slim Shady being a character who makes us examine our own hypocrisies is not how the punchline went to 13 year olds in 2001

*extremely dying from opiod overdose in missouri voice* i had so much power

the joke of Slim Shady being a character who makes us examine our own hypocrisies

A dangerous game to play, I realize, but was this ever his intent?

no

that element hadn't occured to me tbh Whiney, and I take it on board, although I also imagine that part of that is down the differences between US and UK culture

his "character" was a dodge, just a way to do offensive shit and then provide him w authorial distance from it

The way to properly vote: imagine Eminem singing "We Are All Made of Stars" and Moby rapping "Just Lose It."

― You like queer? I like queer. Still like queer. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, November 1, 2018 12:46 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

bad singing is less embarrassing than bad rapping--eminem wins again!

South Park was a very smart show in some ways and utterly indefensible in others

the joke of Slim Shady being a character who makes us examine our own hypocrisies

A dangerous game to play, I realize, but was this ever his intent?

― Timothée Charalambides (cryptosicko), Thursday, November 1, 2018 1:49 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And every single person is a Slim Shady lurking
He could be working at Burger King, spittin' on your onion rings
Or in the parking lot, circling, screaming, "I don't give a fuck!"
With his windows down and his system up

South Park was a very smart show in some ways and utterly indefensible in others

― frogbs, Thursday, November 1, 2018 1:53 PM (thirty-three seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is accurate.

rmde

this is like the "is Trump smart" argument

remembered it from high school and being like, man, I'm an 18 year old idiot and even to me this is so stupid and juvenile

yeah, i was ten, so it hit the sweet spot

wait why was Em trying to son Moby in a beef anyway? I think I used to know why

"there's a million of us just like me" is the key Eminem line isn't it

That's been my experience.

last night's south park was really good

anyway, team chris kirkpatrick

also you can't just blame eminem for the alt-right. he like nu-metal and the man show and all that other overly masculinized culture was just part of the market asserting itself to its perceived norms after being ~~disrupted~~ by cobain calling out rape culture, women having multiple leading roles on cbs, lilith fair, etc etc

Anyway, I'm glad that we are actually able to have this conversation now: to bring up any criticisms of Eminem in 1999/2000 was to shouted down by free speech warriors (now very much a cause of the alt.right).

In my experience every rap-hating asshole who knew that criticizing rap lyrics made them sound like a racist had a TON of criticisms about Eminem around that time

yep

if we wanted to be fair, we could have included Elton in this poll

eminem : the turn of the millennium :: robin thicke : 2013 ?

Their could probably be a good treatise written about how the Man Show evolved from a quasi-ironic endeavor under Kimmel and then got a little creepy under Rogan

in what way -- a date stamp?

xpost

it's not a cause/correlation relationship, I just think Eminem was the original troll

Post Malone shouts out Anthony Fantano on his double platinum album, leave our spaghetti boi alone

In my experience every rap-hating asshole who knew that criticizing rap lyrics made them sound like a racist had a TON of criticisms about Eminem around that time

Possibly true, but as with the cries of "FREE SPEECH!" this feels like another dodge. It was very difficult to have a genuine critical discussion about the content of his music.

https://i.postimg.cc/fy3bbNCx/rs-1024x685-170814125025-1024-eminem-cm-81417.jpg
his house is a bit more restrained than I thought but might still be in contention for a mcmansion hell post.

Their could probably be a good treatise written about how the Man Show evolved from a quasi-ironic endeavor under Kimmel and then got a little creepy under Rogan

I've never seen The Man Show, but I have a hard time believing that Adam Carolla was ever even quasi-ironic on purpose.

I don't wanna "treatise" and "Eminem" (or "Moby") in same passage.

It was very difficult to have a genuine critical discussion about the content of his music.

yeah tons of bad faith arguments. The Eminem ILM threads from the time are really something.

I mean,
1. Eminem is probably the most technically proficient/chops-based rapper who ever existed
2. Part of the freedom of hip-hop is the ability for the practitioner to say funny, offensive shit, which goes back to even pre-rap to things like Dolemite and Blowfly and the dozens.
3. The friction this causes when entering a pop sphere was interesting,
4. the friction this causea when it's a very respectful and learned white interloper was interesting,
5. the fact that he addressed both of those things explicitly in his lyrics was interesting.

How many of those you agree with or enjoy, I suppose, can determine how down you are with the era of Marshall's first three records. I'm 5 for 5, peace out!

the idea that eminem is somehow uniquely problematic is dumb ... didnt #metoo teach anyone anything abt trying to locate #problemtic behavior in one segment of culture or society

I agree he's not unique at all, part of a continuum

also

the most technically proficient/chops-based rapper who ever existed

gtfo w that, yr smarter than this

3. The friction this causes when entering a pop sphere was interesting,
4. the friction this causea when it's a very respectful and learned white interloper was interesting,
5. the fact that he addressed both of those things explicitly in his lyrics was interesting.

I don't think any of these three things is particularly interesting, but then interesting /= good either.

i do think eminem gets singled out bc its the ok way to say you think black cultural output is uniquely problematic without seeming like you're blaming black ppl specifically--not to discount the ways in which he's problematic in a way other rappers from that time weren't. Nor does that mean rap cultures isn't problematic in its own ways. But the cultural form he's a part of is obviously built in a certain tradition & tying that cultural production up as 'uniquely' problematic feels suspect to me...

that house seriously needs a fence both for Em's privacy and everyone else's eyes

deej that was the reason for my thicke comparison, blurred lines felt like it was pent-up frustration toward a target that didn't have as much 'problematic' baggage

1. Eminem is probably the most technically proficient/chops-based rapper who ever existed

Woo-hoo; he's the Steve Vai of rapping.

2. Part of the freedom of hip-hop is the ability for the practitioner to say funny, offensive shit, which goes back to even pre-rap to things like Dolemite and Blowfly and the dozens

Sure, fine.

3. The friction this causes when entering a pop sphere was interesting

Not really.

4. the friction this causes when it's a very respectful and learned white interloper was interesting

White people haven't been "interlopers" in hip-hop since the Clash and Blondie were partying with Fab Five Freddy.

5. the fact that he addressed both of those things explicitly in his lyrics was interesting

Sure, fine. It's all the other bullshit he "addressed" in his lyrics that makes him a waste of time.

yeah tons of bad faith arguments. The Eminem ILM threads from the time are really something.

I wasn't on ILM at the time, and I haven't read the threads, so if this debate was happening there at the time, I'm glad. In the mainstream music press and on other music forums (that I *was* on) at the time, it was another story.

can someone recommend other late 80s/early 90s ambient techno tracks that sound like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kdxk3qMYhs

xpost

(okay, I may have read your comment incorrectly--did you mean that these "bad faith arguments" were taking place on ILM as well?)

Buy all 3 volumes of Welcome to Paradise.

i really like early moby, by the time eminem was dissing him he was a total hack though

we are all made of stars is cool i guess?? idk why ppl are acting like its better than anything eminem ever did though

"We Are All Made Of Stars" is just the recycled chord progression from "Help Me To Believe," right down to the one-chord "verse"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E9D4P3GUkU

Bottom line is both made some great records and a lot of dross, I like Em's high points better I think but I don't care much either way.

did you mean that these "bad faith arguments" were taking place on ILM as well?

yes

Ah! Thanks, and sorry for reading you wrong.

"we're all made of stars" sucked wtf

Was just exploring what Moby's been up to since Play, and boy, doesn't Pitchfork like to use him as some kind of punching bag:

• Everything Was Beautiful, and Nothing Hurt (2018) - 5.7
• These Systems Are Failing (2016) - 4.0
• Destroyed (2011) - 3.8
• Wait For Me (2009) - 5.4
• Last Night (2008) - 5.2
• Hotel (2005) - 2.4
• 18 (2002) - 2.6
• Play (1999) - 5.0

We Are All Made of Stars sounded awesome when I first heard it.....then I saw 18 getting pretty horrible reviews

the song it reminds me the most of is "Heroes". which I had not heard at the time

Chipmunk on crack vs nice backround music.

i prefer crackground music

Listening to any Moby produced after 1994 is a bad idea.

I had my first edibles last year while listening to Moby's recent Lost Ambients and highly recommend the two together.

er, make that Long Ambients.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxzXcJKIFoM

Listening to any Moby produced after 1994 is a bad idea.

― brotherlovesdub, Thursday, November 1, 2018 3:28 PM

we are all made of blahs

Play is so good and even some of the B-sides jam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A2V9Bu80J4

god that is so fuckin bad

the other thing taht sucks about play is that it ruined some of those lomax recordings for me

I tried to find the techno track that sampled the "nobody listens to techno" line, either the one I found was a different track or it's much worse than I remembered.

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, November 1, 2018 2:44 PM (six hours ago)

The good one is Size Triple D (=Danny Howell & Deep Dish) Techno.

https://www.discogs.com/Size-Triple-D-Techno/release/154120

It’s too long and way overplayed at the time, but it’s a banger.

Also cool that Tim F upthread reps the Move EP, I got that at the time and was floored, I thought the guy was just a Twin Peaks theme looping one hit wonder hack from a few years back, and I immediately started seeking out all his other stuff. None of it was nearly as good, and it turned out he really was a hack. His ambient stuff I rate though, simple but effective.

Eminem though, fuck he’s really gone to extraordinary lengths to paint himself as a total asshat, going through the whole effort of writing a whole album just to bitch about how critics didn’t like his previous (shit) one is beyond parody for 2018 Eminem.

Long Ambients is good but unremarkable imo

I hate this thread for getting Without Me stuck in my head when I see the title, a song that I haven't thought about in so many years.

the other thing taht sucks about play is that it ruined some of those lomax recordings for me

― marcos, Thursday, November 1, 2018 8:08 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I suddenly remembered the talk on an older thread about how Moby got the samples from a copy of Sounds of the South which he'd borrowed from a friend and never given back, what a cheap move, kind of wish I'd voted for Eminem now.

see that podcast I posted above, it's pretty great

Oh cool, thanks - bookmarked it!

Good thread premise. I don't have much to add, though, as my feelings towards both have always been fairly neutral.

why aren't there any techno/ambient diss tracks

Skit Ambients 1

Y Tu Mambients

without me still slaps

Yeah I'm not much of an MM fan, but I gotta say I do like that single.

"Stan" felt huge at the time but in hindsight feels kinda gross, albeit a good song.

I suppose I could say the same for "Porcelain."

I also love how SPIN put "Play" at a ridiculously high placing in their "top albums of the '90s" list less than a month after its release.

Play is so good and even some of the B-sides jam

I agree with this. Pulled out the two-disc set this week, which inspired the poll. Say what you want, but I think it holds up extremely well.

"We Are All Made Of Stars" is just the recycled chord progression from "Help Me To Believe," right down to the one-chord "verse"

loool

what have we done...

https://tvweb.com/the-tom-green-show-revival-new-network-details/

I always love it when Porcelain comes on in my yoga class, it helps me focus on and then release all this strife I have internalized concerning the validity of techno

http://moby.com/news/vote-for-moby-on-trl/

Today, we are trying to put together a real push to get “”South Side”” on TRL. Please help us try to put just one more boy band into retirement for the sake of good music.

Vote for Moby by calling 1-800-DIAL-MTV between 3 and 3:30pm EST or by sending your votes by going to mtv.com’s TRL page.

moby and eminem basically had the same stance about pop culture relevance but eminem had more of a sense of humor about it

I’ll take Max Martin’s worst over south side for the sake of good music.

https://webmshare.com/play/5B5MK

I feel like Eminem would be vindicated in retrospect if he'd said nobody listens to "electronica"

I suddenly remembered the talk on an older thread about how Moby got the samples from a copy of Sounds of the South which he'd borrowed from a friend and never given back, what a cheap move, kind of wish I'd voted for Eminem now.

― Gavin, Leeds, Thursday, November 1, 2018 4:45 PM (four days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Lmao

I still find it funny that Eminem, who made Detroit a major part of his image, wrote a lyric that claimed nobody listened to techno described Moby as techno.

Eminem also made ignorance a big part of his brand.

yeah, the reason I found it funny was that Eminem clearly didn't give a fuck what kind of music Moby actually made

It was even more ironic that just around that time 'proper' techno was just having its huge resurgence.

I’m on the fence on this one. Neither of them seem like people I would like to hang out with, but I decidedly dislike Moby more as a person.

However I’m being unfair since I don’t know them at all in person and that’s just based on perceptions about them...
closest thing I can compare them to is their fans... Eminem fans from back then in the late 90s/early 00s felt decidedly worse than Moby fans... although come to think about it I don’t think I even know any Moby fans in real life. Moby’s greatest fans seemed to be corporations who were selling their shit to the beat of his music. If that’s the case then Moby fans are worse than Eminem’s.

At one point I believe it was the album with the most licensed songs in history, it might as well still be. Some of them got licensed for several products at the same time. I swear “Porcelain” was used in at least four different ads that year.

And yet the question is not about the artists or their fans, it’s about their music. I have no idea tbh, they both feel uncool and overplayed as hell to me. Still it’s evident that Eminem is on another level and can be considered a zeitgeist-y, timeless artist in a way that Moby just isn’t. I guess he can always boast about being the biggest sellout in the music business.

yeah, the reason I found it funny was that Eminem clearly didn't give a fuck what kind of music Moby actually made

Exactly, that’s why it’s a great line; he doesn’t even give Moby the respect of referring to his music “properly” (or w/e).

Moby’s greatest fans seemed to be corporations who were selling their shit to the beat of his music. If that’s the case then Moby fans are worse than Eminem’s.

In terms of flops, Animal Rights made Metal Machine Music look like 21. It made Last Action Hero look like Avatar. A "bold experiment" (also known as a "big flop"), it was a) about animal rights, and b) featured a darker, more guitar-driven industrial-techno sound that seems to have wiped out his entire fanbase just as surely as if he'd given them a Zyklon-B power-shower. From big halls, he is now back to playing to about 50 people a night on tours he's having to finance himself. Somehow, he has ended up opening for Soundgarden, an experience that has chiefly involved "getting shit thrown at me every night". Things are so bad that he is toying with just packing it in, music-wise. Go back to school. Reboot. He is actively scanning brochures of architecture colleges.

https://noisey.vice.com/en_uk/article/rzv7dx/moby

Going by this article things were not going too smoothly and even Play had dissapointing sales before it ocurred to his managers to license the shit out of it. If he was someone in the scene prior to Animal Rights most of his original fans had jumped ship by the time Play was released. They surely weren’t buying his music.

If you look at it in sales terms, in terms of exposure, of mass-cultural impact, and combine this with what the LP offers purely as a cultural artefact, I think you could make a very good case for Play being the defining record of an era. Those, sampled, disembodied, soulful voices are in the nature of battle-scars inflicted by the eternal struggle to find ways of making life bearable even when all available evidence suggests it’s a futile exercise. Repatriated to their new setting, they seem to point out how only the surface changes, but how social life, social stratification stay the same; perpetuating a society where the existence of winner taking all creates losers who must pay for survival by selling body and soul. That this mirrors the way in which the songs on Play were farmed out to any number of uses, after which the LP itself grew into a mass phenomenon, in no way diminishes its defining nature. Quite the contrary, it enables Play to encapsulate the nature of the times, emphasizing the closure of the spaces between selling out and selling nothing, between embracing the vacuous world of money for its own sake and resisting a world which knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

To the extent that Play tries to reanimate these spaces, it is a worthwhile listen, but the way that promise was then denied has been instrumental in the process whereby all the gaps where interesting things happen have been mostly blocked off. It therefore marks another defining moment; that at which bands began to self-consciously make music that can be put to any number of other uses – so much of today’s music sounds like it was written to sell soft drinks or high street fashion or provide the soundtrack to that bit in the middle of the dramatic climax in Grey’s Anatomy that it ends up with no substance of its own, no spine. And this is a problem with the tracks on Play. Any piece of music that can be all things to all organizations can never be special, because whatever meaning it may hold to the listener is inevitably corrupted by the dozen other uses that adulterate that meaning.

And it is precisely because Play is such a composite fin-de-millénaire artefact, it cannot be endorsed wholeheartedly. Just mirroring the zeitgeist is not enough. The profound sense of disconnection, the LP’s willingness to be moulded to any use, renders it ineffectual. It all too easily becomes a perpetual state of ambivalence with a sprinkling of good intentions. As a collection of songs stripped of their subsequent associations, the internal contradictions on show make things interesting and invite repeated listening. Unfortunately, what Play has become is the perfect muzak for any location designed to be a space unto itself.

^Not my writing, this is Mark Beal but I agree with this point.

I'm not really buying that - downtempo electronic/chill out music with a nostalgia vibe, sampled old tunes, retro sound etc was big before Play (the whole triphop boom) and big after Play (Chillwave, M83, Schnauss, Vaporwave), even to this day (The Caretaker, all the lethargic indie covers of old hits).

When that A$AP Rocky song that sampled Porcelain came out, my friends and I discussed how it now seems weird in retrospect that no major rapper fucked with Moby at all between like...when Eminem dissed him on Without Me and the A$AP Rocky song, especially given how easily most of his tunes could turn into great beats to be rapped over. We theorised that rap's entire avoidance of Moby came from that single Eminem diss, and that Rocky sampling Moby was a definitive signal that no one truly gave a fuck about what Eminem thought anymore.

"honey" would be a really cool track for someone to rap over imo

honestly i can't begrudge a professional musician licensing the shit out of their music if they want to, even if i admire holdouts who don't. it's his art, who gives a shit?

Moby pre-Play made some genuine rave bangers. I still love and regularly listen to Go and Feeling So Real.

As much as I still have time for some of Moby's work up to and including Play, I had to vote for Eminem just simply on the strength of The Marshall Mathers LP alone.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I like Moby’s remixes of “Stella” better than anything Em’s ever done. I liked Play and 18 quite a bit, really should check out Ambient one of these days. Plus Moby never did anything as terrible as “Just Lose It” or “Fack”. Moby wins.

wiped out his entire fanbase just as surely as if he'd given them a Zyklon-B power-shower.

Can we plz not w the neo-nazis-makin-holocaust-jokes.

Fucking Vice.

Anyone who prefers Moby is a cop

do you really have a serious emotional investment in Eminem

ok sorry he was a good rapper I just can't imagine it

If you were to judge both of these two on the first three or four years of their career it would be a lot closer. Early rave-era Moby (up to Everything Is Wrong) had a lot of straight up bangers. If you put Go or Feeling So Real on now they'd still destroy.

Near unmitigated dreck after 1994 but anyone repping for Eminem after 03 or thereabouts needs to take a long look at themselves as well.

Worth noting that Eminem's last big hit inevitably featured Ed Sheeran while Moby actually made a first chart appearance for 11 years a few months back as a guest credit on an A$AP Rocky track.

Em vocals on something like 'Bodyrock' would've been a logical, tho not necessarily wise, beef squash collaboration between the two (as Em n' M, possibly also featuring Triumph)...before 2004 at least.

Been struggling with this for weeks and still can't decide. I guess Moby is a more unlikely long term success as an artist somehow which might tip it in his favour. Either way 'Move' is still his best single.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Does this mean he won’t get stomped by Obie?

Indeed something about Moby's (90s) melodic heavy-handedness generally feels both dated in a way a lot of 90s dance music doesn't and is also kinda loveable? He feels like the only dance music "star" who really embodied (or purported to embody) PLUR.

his early "rave" stuff felt at the time like a good example of somebody with an impostor syndrome deciding not to worry about it and just recording what he likes to hear. very obvious in some ways but it works and the self aware naivete of it carries it. and that's what i find myself listening to most now, all the way up to Everything Is Wrong DJ Mix (which i like more than the album). actually that sound makes a lot more sense now that i'm reading his autobiography, him describing djing for raver/club kids/vogueing crowd.

Play era started okay, i think it was Bodyrock being constantly played on MTV that got us into that, before it all got horribly saturated, and that saturation carried over to record stores what with a bazillion of various compilations etc and that was perhaps the biggest turn off overall, even leaving the disappointment of spending limited (at the time) CD budget on Animal Rights.

but yeah i love the early era. it's interesting to revisit all that while reading his autobiography, i'm kinda starting to really like him as a person too.

Never heard this longer mix of “Move the Colors” till now:

https://youtu.be/5gAgOsnUPV4

This is a good track imo

On Thursday, December 6th at McCaw Hall, musician and activist Moby will showcase the breadth of his career with an orchestral performance, featuring his many hits, accompanied by members of the Pacific Northwest Ballet Orchestra, with Emil de Cou conducting. This is Moby’s second-ever performance with a full orchestra, and currently no other performances of this kind are scheduled. Proceeds from this special evening will benefit KEXP’s programming. Supported in part by Lyft and Umpqua Investments.

This is a good video imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlqYJwDL4k0

this is a travesty

Still it’s evident that Eminem is on another level and can be considered a zeitgeist-y, timeless artist in a way that Moby just isn’t. I guess he can always boast about being the biggest sellout in the music business.

Um... have you heard Revival?

Have u heard Slim Shady LP?

95% certain I saw Moby in the veggie section at the grocery store last night. This was only half a mile from his vegan restaurant so it makes sense.

You should have told him that he won this poll.

Ah, he would have smiled at you.

These poll results are insane

"insane in the membrane!" -- eminem
"insane in the brain!" -- moby

lol

Anyone who prefers Moby is a cop

― President Keyes

speaking for the cops of the world we don't give a shit about eminem _or_ moby, thanks

In an Uber listening to “Love The away You lie” and had forgotten about “Now you get to watch her leave,
Out the window, guess that's why they call it window pane”

unforgettably, indelibly awful

I can't stand Moby, but I'm glad he won this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMKPwQXReHs

this has been making the rounds. misses a couple of eminem's vocal modes but kinda otm mockery of others.

we should poll their 2001 grammy performances

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sdSfru61jo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPNceNV5bh8

getting a divorce and an abortion in the floorboard of a ford taurus makes for a shitty day

holy lord that Moby video! Want to change my vote to Taurus guy -- perfect.

“the elder statesman of electronic music”

https://variety.com/2019/music/news/moby-natalie-portman-dated-book-1203225746/

you fucking rubes voting for moby

“Go”, my man

https://www.scaruffi.com/music/techno.html

picturing a Scaruffi reverently listening to "Drop A Beat"

by all accounts this guy is a scum/douchebag, fuck him

They've always both been terrible, and they've aged equally terribly.

In other words, I was wrong upthread.

no, the Long Ambients are good, and I checked last night & Next Is The E still goes

we don't really need to be discussing this douchecanoe nonsense on two threads though

The more pressing reason I was wrong was that no one listening to Eminem thought it or he was good for them. Moby's liner notes, otoh...

xp What’s the other thread? I try to avoid that faux pas...

it has the word “Moby” in the title

This is the only active such thread

ILE, yo: Moby is a dork

Yeah, I don’t look at that.

worth running a quick ctrl+f on SNA

I’d rather stick to one messageboard. Why have other boards at all, if ILE preempts and supersedes them?

(Give me some credit, I bookmarked and use the ILE “Damon Lindelof’s Watchmen” thread, after being told the ILC “Watchmen” thread wasn’t the right place to discuss it.)

tbh you should have started a thread on I Love Books to talk about Moby's book

Someone should! Without fear of being redirected to ILM or ILE, lol