be it resolved that the ILM EOY tracks poll institute a one-track-per-artist-per-rollout limit

this is also where counter proposals (such as raising or lowering # of nominations or telling me to fuck off) can be discussed obv

strong nay, don't think this is really a problem and feel like there's plenty of instances of an artist having 2 huge tracks in the same year that are p different from each other. also creates messy attribution issues with stuff like guest spots, collaborations, side projects etc

nay

I didn't like the idea, but Moka's description has persuaded me, otoh I've only been around here what? four years? So what do I know?

interested in the notion that this is the most arbitrary or disfiguring aspect of polling, why not 1000 rules?

No. And also no to lowering nomination numbers - while I usually don't take every single slot for my noms I am still grateful that we have plenty, there would be no additional fun for me if I hit the limit every time and had to whittle down, that's part of the ballot-making process not the nominating one. Don't have any strong feeling about raising the number of nominations.

strong nay here also

my recommendation is to try and keep individual ballots to one track per artist but i wouldn't enforce that, just frown vexatiously at transgressors

I posted this on the other thread (with typos and tabulation errors corrected here):

# of artists represented in the top 77 per year (not including featured credits):

2017: 72
2016: 64
2015: 63
2014: 63
2013: 65

Given that less than 20% of the tracks in any year's poll have been by artists with another song in the poll, I don't really see this as a problem that needs to be solved.

It's clearly not a problem unless you have an agenda about changing what the poll represents

hard to argue with that data

yeah I was weakly leaning yea but that makes it look p unnecessary

"agenda" lol

77 artists is better and more interesting than under 77 artists is the only rationale I'm applying, personally

I assume some of the perception that there are LOADS of repeat artists is because of some high-profile acts who've placed 3+ songs in a single year's poll. But I feel like those artists still make up a relatively small % of the total list. (And it didn't happen at all in the 2017 poll.)

2013:
Beyonce 4
Haim 3
Vampire Weekend 3

2014:
Taylor Swift 4
Nicki Minaj 3

2015:
Carly Rae Jepsen 4
Grimes 3
Kendrick Lamar 3

2016:
Beyonce 4
The 1975 3

yearly 77 artists poll would be a nice addition to the tracks and albums imo!

NV OTM. This rule does not seem rigorous enough. We also need to prohibit reptition of producers, session instrumentalists, backup singers, and record labels.

*repetition

I'm p sure Julian Lage was involved more than once on my ballot, the tart.

Nominations must feature an even distribution of release date to combat recency bias

Nominations must feature an even distribution of release date to combat recency bias

everyone gets three noms a month each month of the year, and then you get a bonus four noms in january to mop up stuff you missed

all ballots must have at least 30% EU-produced content

Voting no on this, but I'd like to see a lower nomination limit.

nay

Voting no on this, but I'd like to see a lower nomination limit.

someone else can feel free to take the lead on this ballot initiative after this one goes up in flames

i don't really see any problem with the nomination limit tbh

I think the runners of these polls have thought it out rationally

I just think it will cause people to make some tough choices that help eliminate weaker tracks.

At the end of the day, the top 77 is just the part of the awards ceremony that's shown on tv. All the other awards/ranking were presented at a ceremony held in a Sheraton ballroom.

yearly 77 artists poll would be a nice addition to the tracks and albums imo!

yearly 77 artists poll would be a nice addition to the tracks and albums imo!

― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:33 PM (four hours ago)

At the end of the day, the top 77 is just the part of the awards ceremony that's shown on tv. All the other awards/ranking were presented at a ceremony held in a Sheraton ballroom.

― Johnny Fever, Tuesday, January 29, 2019 7:48 PM (thirteen minutes ago)

lol

I think popular artists should be excluded from the EOY polls altogether. We get to talk about them all year long anyway, it’s just not fair to the also-rans.

Of course, a more structural solution would be to limit/cap the number of posts - as well as posters! - on artist- and record-specific threads, so that people will be forced to go on other, less popular, threads, which will lead to more diversification. Mission accomplished!

2013:
Beyonce 4
Haim 3
Vampire Weekend 3

2014:
Taylor Swift 4
Nicki Minaj 3

2015:
Carly Rae Jepsen 4
Grimes 3
Kendrick Lamar 3

2016:
Beyonce 4
The 1975 3

Nah. I mean, it seems like most people naturally cap the amount of songs per artist on their singles polls they, unless they REALLY love the songs, right? It's not like you've got crazy Twitter stans wildly skewing the votes with a strategic voting campaign or something, like that time Hayley Kiyoko was in the top 5 'Most Influential Women in 21st Century Music' NPR poll. If that were the case, I could see the argument for it.

The ILM poll is the best one I've ever found on the internet. I think it's because it's purely, without an agenda, about just recognising 77 brilliant tracks. In the unlikely event that one artist releases 5 or 6 brilliant songs in the same year and everyone agrees on that, then so be it.

i cant really imagine that any act will get even 3 tracks placing this year, except maybe the 1975?

I would’ve thought Kacey Musgraves was a possibility before the poll began but she hasn’t showed up at all yet so I don’t think that’s likely

Yeah, IIRC only 4 of her tracks were actually nominated anyway. The album will get pretty close to the top of the albums poll, but I'm predicting that only High Horse and Slow Burn have a chance of showing up on the tracks poll.

I don't see how it's a problem to have several songs by an artist place in the same year, and I see incommensurable problems in trying to make sure of the contrary. So no. Also, Moka's proposal is a weird twist because it still includes all songs that received votes, naturally you'd still mentally calculate where Taylor Swift placed.

I just think it will cause people to make some tough choices that help eliminate weaker tracks.

― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Tuesday, January 29, 2019 7:45 PM (yesterday)

I can maybe see this point, but who's going to decide what are the weaker tracks, and what about nominators of genres/artists not over-represented in the poll?

as far as the roll-out, I really don't agree with manipulating the results to eliminate artist duplications

The lower cap on nominations idea was also simple math: if you have 25 votes and 30-40 nominations, your vote will naturally be quite individualistic, because it's 40 nominations on top of everyone else. I think 40 pushes people to nominate just about anything remotely interesting just for the sake of having an impressive batch of 1300 songs, even if 94.1% of them will not place.
For example, the large limit allowed me to nominate like 4 songs from Aviary. I love those songs, but those nominations achieve little in the context of the poll.
I'm not expert, but I imagine a 25 nominations limit would still produce a total of close to 1000 songs / albums. People would share, talk and debate a little more, so it would potentially make the nomination process more interesting. And this change still guarantees freedom for everyone. At the moment, it seems that everyone has come up with "strategies", so everyone does seem to want to channel their votes to where they matter.
I don't know if the lower total of nominations would actually affect the final vote spread all that much though.

Is this thread copied from a Community Policing Guidelines Document?

lol! It is making discussions about key amendments to the 18th edition wiring regulations seem completely fucking riveting in comparison.

the trax/albums split doesn't really make much sense as it stands. lots of albums are single tracks, and the decision on how/whether to split long pieces into tracks is often taken on commercial grounds by labels. we've got a piece of music in the tracks 77 which is more than twice as long as some albums that might place. EPs get neglected and mixes, radio sets etc. get completely ignored. I can see why an artist 77 is tempting

I became suspicious there may be cops in our midst after listening to some of the records in the EOY rundown..

First they came for the good records and I said nothing because I was on holiday at the time, then they came for the coffee in Greggs, and I said nothing because the coffee in Greggs isn't bad actually for the price, then they came for warmth, charm, bonhomie and vibe and replaced them with amendments and corollaries

saer doesn't believe in music, people or good intentions.

Re multiple placements, Kacey will def get at least 2 and The 1975 will get at least 3. could just as easily turn out to be 3 and 4 respectively

think popular artists should be excluded from the EOY polls altogether. We get to talk about them all year long anyway, it’s just not fair to the also-rans.

Now THIS is something I could get behind.

cosign

1. Abolish nominations, just vote
2. You get to nominate two other posters with your ballot - one gets triple their points on everything they nominated and the others are reduced by half (even if this means they end up getting 0.000001 points or whatever)
3. Let a thousand flowers wilt

i like the esoteric poll that's been done post results the last few years, think it's fave album that only received 1 vote and it was a top 3 for that person

still think we should have negative votes as well

1. Abolish nominations, just vote

100 negative points to spend however we wish xp

Instead of negative votes (and artist poll, too redundant) ILM should just run a mini worst-tracks poll that could happen early January when we have the nominations list, while waiting for the rest. That way we can see if Drake really wins.

best-EPs would also be a good category for the EOY... but hello genre-splitting.

I _do_ run a worst tracks poll!
Vote for the Worst Song of 2017

will likely set the 2018 one up next week.

strong nay

just let ILM do its thing, the results are not going to be more interesting if they feature 77 unique lukewarm synth pop artists rather than 73

lol otm

oi

No, but I'd be interested in seeing the difference in previous years' polls of that rule were in place, and how it would have changed the rollout. Maybe include it in the appendices with all the other extra data at the roll-out close?

Definitely interested in an artist 77 measuring "impact", whatever that criteria means.

how hard they can drive their head through drywall

how hard they can drive their head through drywall

― Fuck the NRA (ulysses)

what do you have against drywall

an "esoteric" poll would be theoretically interesting, but i'm not sure we have the userbase to do it. sometimes "esoteric" means one really enthusiastic person, and polls don't really work for that

i say we abolish voting and let all eoy album decisions be made by a central committee, "democracy" is a capitalist sham

nxd was talking about "esoteric" polls like this:
Best album from the 2017 ILM EOY album poll that received only ONE top 3 weighted vote

drywall is a capitalist sham

Surely anyone in favour of this could simply wait until the full results are revealed and then edit the list to their own satisfaction.

Nay.

for the record, if I have this right, here's what would have made the rollout this year if repeats were out. diverse!

Black Dresses - Thoughts and Prayers
Sun-El Musician ft. Simmy - Sonini
Keyakizaka46 - Moumorihekaerouka?
Yves Tumor - Noid
Meg Baird and Mary Lattimore - Fair Annie
Childish Gambino - This Is America
Kendrick Lamar & SZA - All the Stars
Bruno Mars ft. Cardi B - Finesse
Raveena - Honey
SOPHIE - Faceshopping
Stephen Malkmus and the Jicks - Middle America

childish gambino not placing was worth it

I knew that was coming lol

also the spreadsheet docs were set up co copy/pasting was impossible so that third one was a real trial

Malkmus not placing wuz worth it!

also the spreadsheet docs were set up co copy/pasting was impossible so that third one was a real trial

― resident hack (Simon H.), Thursday, January 31, 2019 10:24 PM

There was a raw txt viewing option. Go look. You'll kick yourself.

lol

If you want 10 more entries for diversity, just present the top 87.

or listen to more music!

voted yes only because the worst placing evan-and-jaron-sounding 1975 song is extremely bad

lol I voted no originally, but for real I think the 1975 might have just convinced me to change my mind.

Much as I was getting infuriated by the repeat placings of the 1975, I'm still a 'no'. If ILX wants to vote for four 1975 tracks then they can, I'm just gonna get a bit mad on-thread.

same. even if it were two baby sharks

whatabout 2 High and Drys, though

If you want 10 more entries for diversity, just present the top 87.

I believe ILX numerology requires the mystical number 77.

would surely be baby shark, then mommy shark, daddy shark, grandma shark, etc

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Nay

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

pretty definitive

as it should be

the world's greatest deliberative body

people were asking about this / arguing again so I figured I'd give it a bump so ppl could be reminded how definitive this was

really not TOO many repeats this year, but two rock acts taking up over a tenth of the rollout was...a choice

One batch was from the first album in forever from a beloved cult figure who (no need to say the rest);

The other batch were from two separate albums by the best active rock band;

Both somewhat unique situations.

I could get behind the idea of prohibiting voters from voting for more than two (2) tracks from a single album, as discussed in the rollout thread (but not the measure proposed in this poll).

(FWIW, I voted for one (1) track by each artist — their respective tracks which placed highest)

I'm always a little disappointed because I would like to see more of my favorites show up, but the EOY tracks poll is what it is, a reflection of the year

which is great

the best active young rock band

^gonna quickly amend this, to avoid conflict

i don't think voters are loading their ballots with 5 tracks from the same album, everyone's just voting for a different 2

The thing with album artists is that there's little agreement on consensus tracks, so lots of stuff gets nominated and no one really knows whether the tracks they choose are the ones anyone else is voting for. That uncertainty incentivizes voting for more than one track if you are hoping to hit upon one other people like as well.

i do think purple mountains is an unusual circumstance that shouldn't change our opinions, i'm still a nay

if people want to see more variety from the lower end of the poll i'd rather just extend the countdown to 100 than remove duplicate artists. the three billie eilish tracks this year are all pretty different in vibe. i'm certainly not that thrilled on five different purple mountains tracks placing but i think that's the first time it's been this bad? was the previous record 4 crj tracks in 2015?

i'd be ok with limiting ballots to a maximum of two tracks by the same artist which would surely help a little bit but i'm not sure how much. there were a total of 44 votes for purple mountains tracks, but only from 24 voters, so most purple mountains voters were voting for two of their songs at least. this isn't the case for big thief (29 voters/41 votes) to the same degree or billie eilish (37 voters/39 votes) basically at all.

I am a big fan of the idea of expanding out to 100. fuck tradition

looking through the past results there was also 4 1975 tracks in 2018, 4 beyonce tracks in 2016 and 2013, and 4 taylor tracks in 2014, but none seem to have such a large number of voters voting for multiple tracks like purple mountains did this year which seems to be the driving force behind their record 5 tracks.

Change the results to only show the song title and not the artist. No words are repeated that way

you guys know that there are no cash prizes awarded to the winners, right?

use quadratic voting

I don't think any changes need to be made to the poll itself.

However, it would be good to have a friendly reminder during voting that it's best to adopt a "one track per artist" policy in your list, and people who insist on voting for 4 or 5 tracks from a single album should be sternly tutted at.

Yeah, limit the number of votes in a ballot to a maximum of two per artist. If someone wants to vote for more, just vote for the album, don't stuff the tracks poll full of album tracks.

Like, who care what's the 5th best track on some rock album? IMO the tracks poll is great for discovering new artists and/or artists who don't have albums, or the albums aren't strong enough to make in in the polls but some individual track is. Having 4 or 5 songs from an album in the track countdown and then the same album in the album countdown is just boring.

Maybe if five tracks place from a single album, that album then gets banned from the album rollout the following week

xp Exactly. Personally I do not care for albums, let alone rock albums, and it feels like they are spreading out of the albums list to the tracks list. Previous examples of multiple placements were mostly from pop albums with a lot of singles. Nothing against a good album track from a patchy LP of course!

saer profoundly OTM. LOL.

This really seems to be a non-problem. If one is bothered that Purple Mountains appeared more than once, then just look up the 78-81 poaitions and pretend the following rounded out the bottom of the 77:

Jenny Hval - High Alice
CZ Wang & Neo Image - Just Off Wave
Charli XCX ft. Sky Ferreira - Cross You Out
Rapsody ft. GZA & D'Angelo - Ibtihaj

Once you start limiting the number of nominations or ballot slots per artist you're forcing voters into strategic voting anyway (in the sense of voting for things that are not really their favourites), just at an earlier stage in the process. Alternatively, fans just decide not to bother as their preferred track is absent.

Also, in the case of Purple Mountains, it's worth bearing in mind that the lower three tracks were at #50 or lower and attracted a very modest 5, 6 or 7 votes each. One hardly needs a grand conspiracy to achieve those sorts of numbers. Maybe, just maybe it really was an album with a high number of tracks with moderately broad appeal.

I would rather the rollout discussion was about 77 different artists, than have a few acts taking up multiple places when they’re going to appear next week anyway when we ‘ll have basically the same conversation about them all over again

^ Yes, exactly.

Once you start limiting the number of nominations or ballot slots per artist you're forcing voters into strategic voting anyway

Yes, if people cannot bring themselves to vote strategically then they should be at least gently encouraged to do that.

A non-problem if there ever was one imo. I mostly care about the albums list, not tracks. But if a tracks poll is: 'vote for your favourite tracks', then let people vote for their favourite tracks! Imposing restrictions is just silly.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It sounds like what people really crave is a 77 Best Artists Of The Year poll. Creating such a thing makes more sense than trying to awkwardly shoehorn a 'favourite tracks' poll into that role.

With the likes of Big Thief and Sault releasing multiple LPs in 2019 it's possible the albums poll will also fail to provide cues for the discussion of exactly 77 artists this year.

Nobody is asking for a top 77 artists. The point is that this is basically a singles poll (with album tracks included because what even is a single in 2020) and people are nominating 4 or 5 tracks from the same LP.

It's not a singles poll though, it's a tracks poll.

It's not a singles poll though, it's a tracks poll.

In theory, yes, but in practice the majority of tracks on these lists have always been singles or other indidividually released tracks, and the biggest exception has always been album tracks from rock albums.

Keep it the way it is. Any restrictions should be on individual ballots - a two per artist limit shouldn't be too controversial. I voted for Wild Time, not Movies or Andromeda, and I'd be unhappy to have my choice excluded on a bogus technicality. If an artist released several amazing songs and enough different people vote for enough of them, shouldn't we celebrate the songs rather than ignore their existence? As has been said, this is a tracks poll, not an artists poll

The ~problem~ here still ultimately seems that other people vote for tracks you don't like. If you feel one artist is hogging up places in the 77, then look at places 85-78 when it's done or something. Or rally around and get ppl to vote otherwise in the nominations thread.

Restrictions should be self-imposed only imo.

xp exactly.

Any restrictions should be on individual ballots

Yes, this is exactly what is being proposed

I don't agree with that. If someone wants to vote for 11 Purple Mountains songs, they've my blessing (even though I think it's silly to do so).

see here:

it would be good to have a friendly reminder during voting that it's best to adopt a "one track per artist" policy in your list, and people who insist on voting for 4 or 5 tracks from a single album should be sternly tutted at.

How about this: limit the rollout to one track per release? So if an artist had a prolific year and released two non-album singles, one EP, and two albums, each can be represented by a single track. But if they only released one album and nothing else, the album can't be represented by more than one track.

Yeah that's probably best xpost

No, Tuomas

How about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5W7Xn7FiA

The ~problem~ here still ultimately seems that other people vote for tracks you don't like. If you feel one artist is hogging up places in the 77, then look at places 85-78 when it's done or something.

The problem is that places 78-85 aren't rolled out individually and discussed, which is the main point of the whole excercise. Otherwise the entire vote results could just be posted all at once.

Voting for the other version of No Limits where instead of the rap you just get "TECHNO TECHNO TECHNO TECHNO"

If an artist released several amazing songs and enough different people vote for enough of them, shouldn't we celebrate the songs rather than ignore their existence?

Eh we’re not running a museum here, I’d rather the list functioned as a place to be exposed to lots of different new stuff

Voting for the other version of No Limits where instead of the rap you just get "TECHNO TECHNO TECHNO TECHNO"

Isn't this U96's "Das Boot"?

[/i]If an artist released several amazing songs and enough different people vote for enough of them, shouldn't we celebrate the songs rather than ignore their existence?[/i]

Eh we’re not running a museum here, I’d rather the list functioned as a place to be exposed to lots of different new stuff

Exactly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exLG0XWM_Dg

This was the version they released in the UK for some reason

Brb voting for both versions. (I did not know that btw, odd!)

Saying the word 'no' twelve times into someone's head, that could have a BAD effect.

Technically thirteen

there were a total of 44 votes for purple mountains tracks, but only from 24 voters, so most purple mountains voters were voting for two of their songs at least.

Well, no. That's an average of 1.83.

Half of those 24 have said they voted in various places. And this sample accounts for *just* short of half of the votes. We know "Margaritas at the Mall" received five votes in total, so the maximum possible number of people voting for every single nomination is TWO! It may be just the one for all I know.

Seven of these twelve voted for just one track each. And there's no overlap at all between many of the ballots. I'm even more convinced that this is not an actual problem.

Voter            SNOW   GONE   NIGHT  DARK   MARG
a                X      .      .      .      .  
b                X      .      .      .      .  
c                .      .      X      .      .  
d                X      .      .      .      X
e                X      X      X      X      X
f                X      .      .      .      .
g                .      .      .      X      X
h                X      .      .      .      .
i                X      .      X      .      .
j                X      X      .      .      X
k                .      .      X      .      .
l                .      X      .      .      .

"have said HOW they voted"

I have read that a few times and am not sure what point you are making, but just telling voters e and j that they should try to restrict themselves to 1 or 2 tracks would have likely knocked Margaritas out of the 77.

Seems likely, but what point would that actually serve apart from potentially denying a couple of voters a vote for what may genuinely be one of their favourite tracks of the year?

Seems likely, but what point would that actually serve apart from potentially denying a couple of voters a vote for what may genuinely be one of their favourite tracks of the year?

They can still vote for two of their favourite tracks by the act! The point it serves is that the top 77 will become more interesting and more varied, more likely to introduce some new songs and artists to ILXors. So for the general good you'll have to sacrifice your selfish want to vote for 4 or 5 songs by the same band. Doesn't sound to horrible to me.

Seems a completely arbitrary restriction. We're talking about distinct tracks here. The artist or the collection of recordings it happens to be bundled with need have no bearing on it. I'd think it extremely, er, ill-advised but wouldn't even want to reject a ballot with all 25 tracks derived from the same LP. We either want to know the voter's favourite songs (however they judge that) or we don't.

people were asking about this / arguing again so I figured I'd give it a bump so ppl could be reminded how definitive this was

lol this never actually works - people just ignore the result and repeat their argument. Shit what if politics was like this...

I voted for 3 PM tracks, but I'm totally fine with having a 2-track limit per artist. That's reasonable IMO.

The reason I voted for 3 is because 1) I really liked those three tracks; 2) I underestimated the popularity of this artist here and thus voted in hopes that I'd hit on one track that others liked enough to vote for also. I really didn't expect them to place more than twice in the top 77.

the funny thing is that Purple Mountains didn't even place in the album poll

oh shit i said that out loud didn't i

if you actually read the above you'll see people proposed something completely different and then it was characterised as being the same thing all over again in order to shut them up. so yes, see what you mean there.

I’d rather the list functioned as a place to be exposed to lots of different new stuff

Well, we have lots of threads for that already. This is a poll, and it should reflect the desired votes of the voting base as accurately as it can. Yes, it's boring to have lots of repeats, I agree, but if that's what people are voting for then that's what we should see in the results. A stern tutting is the limit for me.

I think we should just give half weight to votes for artists who died during the year in question, since they always get overrated.

As someone who voted for Mac Miler last year and nearly voted for Sulli this year, this is not true.

what about compulsory lie detector tests to make sure it really is your favourite tracks of the year?

all votes to dead artists should be reduced by 21 grams

The more ppl complain about this, the less I’m convinced it’s a problem. What if Purple Rain were released this year?

Just roll out the top 100 (or, heck, anything that gets more than 1 vote); but announce the lower songs on the list in “chunks” or something, and without individualized artwork. You can’t please everyone!

1999 was released this year and virtually nobody voted for it!

i like the esoteric poll that's been done post results the last few years, think it's fave album that only received 1 vote and it was a top 3 for that person

― nxd, Wednesday, January 30, 2019 7:07 AM (one year ago) bookmarkflaglink

i really like this too.

People get soooooo pissy about tracks poll every single year, it's almost enough to justify one's belief in the innate superiority of the album format

are we getting enough votes this past decade each year to expand the rollout to 100 tracks?

I'd like to stick to 77, as it's the special ILx number, and also 100 feels a bit much.

agreed