Imperial Aerosol POLL: The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway by Genesis

This feels more and more like the greatest prog album of all time to me. I could vote for absolutely anything on disc 1 and about half of disc 2. Leaning toward Chamber of 32 Doors today, but I'll give it time

This is between In the Cage and Carpet Crawlers, will have to listen again and see which way to go.

Carpet crawlers

Wanted to give Counting Out Time a sympathy vote, but it had to be In The Cage

Love this so much. In the Cage vs Back in NYC vs Cuckoo Cocoon, I think, but I will listen before voting.

NYC vs the opening 3 (impossible to separate Fly and Broadway Melody). Best side 1 ever, followed by the most disappointing third act of any prog album. Despite this, one of my favorite albums.

If the vote was for best costume, this would be "Colony of Slippermen" in a landslide (scree-slide?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E992R9iBbF8

voted Back in NYC but it could have been Carpet Crawlers or the title track easily

after the big quartet trespass, nursery cryme, foxtrot and selling england by the pound this was such a big disappointment for me in the late 70s. i never understood the appeal of it. it was a little similar with white light/white heat when i got into velvet underground. i found those albums annoyingly repetitive. i have to admit i haven't listened to TLLDOB for close to 40 years though.

Ugh, impossible to choose. I've internalized every note on this album.

This was the first Genesis album I heard. It took me a while to get into it because it sounded too much like '80s Genesis, which I hated, to me. I know that's not the usual reaction people have but even though the songs are different they are pretty much the same band, particularly evident on a song like "The Carpet Crawlers". Plus, even in their prog days the biggest strength Genesis had was their melodic sense, their ability to write pop songs. So I like this because there aren't any ten minute epics on it. There's "In The Cage", which is great. I don't have the words for it but there's a sense in which the way the melodies are used gives a sense of zooming in and out of the situation. And then there's "The Colony of Slippermen", which is not great, but which has a fantastic castration sound effect which I always assume was one of Eno's contributions.

But I also like "The Waiting Room", which is just them doing some oppressive Crimson-style jamming. There's some great rehearsal tapes from Headley Grange where they just go all out for twenty minutes on it, and even though Genesis don't have a reputation as improvisers, in fact I can't think of a single instance other than this song of them improvising, it's fantastic. Live it's good too, there's a bunch of fantastic OAM recordings from the Lamb tour that have surfaced. The nine minute recording from Gronigen is pretty sweet.

The only song I don't like, really, is "Chamber of 32 Doors", which I flat out fucking hate. It's the lyrics. I know how "anti-cosmopolitanism" plays out in practice and I have no patience with songs extolling the virtues of simple country folk.

The rest of the lyrics, though, I love. No, they don't tell a coherent story, but Gabriel's stuff tends to have this deep psychological resonance. I've written about this elsewhere, but it's a very relatable album from a genderqueer perspective.

Anyway, not voting right now, will have to think on it.

Forgot about Back In NYC, probably due to taking a few years to really appreciate it. I love the fact it is primarily written by the same man who wrote The Living Years

Going to have to stick up for the second disc too, I honestly love how the first is kind of perfect and the second seemingly meanders around with full on creepiness and menace, leading nowhere you could possibly expect it to (i.e. a Supper's Ready-esque climax)

anything on disc 1 and about half of disc 2

the most disappointing third act of any prog album

Not agreeing with this at all - I adore side 2 even more so than side 1. It works especially well as an entire run, I do find it hard to pick out single tracks. Obvious contenders would be the Lamia or Colony of Slippermen.
But I think I'll vote for Anyway. It's a huge personal favourite and I feel it's a bit of a hidden gem which will probably not get so many other votes, if any at all.

just giving this a relisten, struck by how much the title song sounds like something off who's next

Anyway is definitely under-appreciated, I think it's an early song they resurrected. Or was that Counting Out Time? Maybe both. I think there's also a few bits from this early 20-minute epic they wrote and never recorded, but spent the next decade cannibalising for various tracks.

Went for Fly On The Windshield in the end, but I think of sides 1-3 kind of as one continuous track so difficult to pick anything out of it. Side 4 largely a waste of time imo, esp. Banks's lyrics he had to come up with cos Gabriel ran out of steam.

It took me a while to warm up to the live-with-overdubs concert on the Archive box, but as the closest they came to a proper reunion (WOMAD aside, which left out Steve), it's a fun listen. Phil's playing is nervy and Gabriel handles the old songs pretty well.

For me, it's In the Cage over the opener. And I'll take Afterglow over Carpet Crawlers.

"Back in N.Y.C."! I have not played this record (the only Genesis album I own) since high school, 40+ years ago.

Not agreeing with this at all - I adore side 2 even more so than side 1. It works especially well as an entire run, I do find it hard to pick out single tracks. Obvious contenders would be the Lamia or Colony of Slippermen.
But I think I'll vote for Anyway. It's a huge personal favourite and I feel it's a bit of a hidden gem which will probably not get so many other votes, if any at all.

― Valentijn, Monday, July 8, 2019 10:26 AM (forty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It's after "The Lamia" that the album becomes a slog for me (and I love "Anyway," too). "Slippermen" is OK I guess but the rest of the album, jeez, talk about going out with a whimper. And the narrative becomes especially disjointed toward the end. Oh, and I loathe "the Waiting Room." "Don't have a reputation as improvisers," indeed.

Voted Fly

Freeeeeeewaaaaaaaaaaaay.......boing!

I was waiting to see how you'd vote

That first half of this record is just so insanely good. Second half is kind of amorphous and not nearly as effective. I always thought "it." sounded like the intro music to some nightly news program of the era.

"Carpet Crawlers" is one of those tunes that physically skeeves me out, I love it. that little guitar tone during the "gotta get in to get out" bit feels like it hits me in the funnybone. also, that descending keyboard line is incredible...sounds like a sequencer almost

but I think I'd go with "In the Cage", the final third is just brilliant. that sustained bass drop just kills me.

I agree that this is perhaps one of the greatest prog albums ever made, even though side 4 kinda bites it (outside of "it"...vrooooooooom!!"). Always thought if you wanted to show today's modern teenager what prog was, warts & all, this would be the album you pick.

I always thought "it." sounded like the intro music to some nightly news program of the era.

Ha ha! That's accurate.

Listening now, and forgot how much I love "In The Cage". But because I started with Genesis in the 80's and worked backwards through their discography, it still sounds wrong to my ear to have Gabriel singing this tune (as opposed to Phil Collins on the "3 sides live" version).
Agree with whoever said that this album isn't as great as the 3 or 4 that came before it.

I used to watch this "Abacab" era Genesis live video, where "In the Cage" was if not played in its entirety then def. played as part of a medley. Along with songs like (or snippets of) "Afterglow," etc.

"after the big quartet trespass, nursery cryme, foxtrot and selling england by the pound this was such a big disappointment for me in the late 70s. i never understood the appeal of it."

it's a completely different sounding album than the preceding ones. It's very modern in both composition and the sound of the instruments. There's almost nothing pastoral on here. Parts of it sound more like Nadir's Big Chance than any previous Genesis albums. Trick of the Tail was very much a regression from this sound (though I love it too). I don't think they really started treading this ground again until Duke.

Pre-Lamb was fantasy; Lamb was sci-fi.

(WOMAD aside, which left out Steve)

? dinnerboat, Monday, July 8, 2019 7:57 AM

He showed up at the end! (To do The Knife, of all things, which he isn't on the studio recording of...)

Anyway is definitely under-appreciated, I think it's an early song they resurrected. Or was that Counting Out Time? Maybe both. I think there's also a few bits from this early 20-minute epic they wrote and never recorded, but spent the next decade cannibalising for various tracks.

Side 4 largely a waste of time imo, esp. Banks's lyrics he had to come up with cos Gabriel ran out of steam.

? Zeuhl Idol (Matt #2)

It's "Anyway", from the rejected soundtrack to some art-porn film from around the time of _Trespass_. Peter's lyrics are a significant improvement over the original, which is along the lines of "I am the mad mad scientist". And yeah, "Lilywhite Lilith", as well as bits of "The Colony of Slippermen", cops from a piece called "The Light" they used to play in concert in the pre-Nursery Cryme era (with Phil on vocals!)

I have sort of a fondness for "The Light Dies Down On Broadway", if only because the spectacle of Tony Banks trying to do a recap of the previous hour and change, as if any of it made the slightest bit of goddamn sense whatsoever, at a point where there's only three more goddamn songs left on the album anyway, is like getting Chris Chibnall to do a recap of one of Moffat's seasons of Who.

Very rare to find a double concept album that doesn't fall to bits in the back half. You get side 3, where they randomly decided to stick all the guitar solos - aside from that Hackett is mostly doubling Banks, to the point where you can't even tell he showed up for the record, particularly when he's doing that tapping stuff.

I don't know if Peter's lyrics really let it down. Yeah, there's clunkers, but the entirety of "Broadway Melody of 1974" is just Gabriel doing a list song like he's Roger Waters, which doesn't keep it from being a stone fucking classic (funnily enough one of the few interviews with Waters from the mid '70s he spends most of the time slagging off Genesis in some obscure beef). I guess they don't mesh with the music, but I just don't feel like "The Lamia" or "The Colony of Slippermen" are nearly as strong musically as "In the Cage" or "Back in NYC" - a gem like "Anyway", which isn't enough to anchor a side, is just out there unsupported. Then you get weird pseudo-ambient Eno wannabes like "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats" (pretty sure that's not actually Eno), which is lovely and I might actually vote for it just to be contrarian but doesn't mesh or flow with anything else anywhere, Banks doing a mega-squiggly synth solo on "Riding the Scree"... I mean it's still better than pretty much anything on "Tales" (and Genesis knew it - read the interviews of the time and they're going out of their way make it clear that _their_ obscure double concept album is nothing like Yes's recent disaster).

Listening now, and forgot how much I love "In The Cage". But because I started with Genesis in the 80's and worked backwards through their discography, it still sounds wrong to my ear to have Gabriel singing this tune (as opposed to Phil Collins on the "3 sides live" version)

I feel the same way about Carpet Crawlers, since I got to know and love the Phil-sung version on Seconds Out long before I heard the studio version with Gabriel. I still think the song suits Phil's voice better. In The Cage, though, suits Gabriel's vocals far better I think.

Lots of contenders. Going for "The Lamia" in the long run. Tony is the most underrated member of Genesis.

"
It's "Anyway", from the rejected soundtrack to some art-porn film from around the time of _Trespass_"

this is actually from the "Jackson Tapes" which was released a few years ago with the albums on a cd of outtakes in a box set.

"A BBC television producer heard about Genesis in late 1969 when they were based in the cottage owned by Richard Macphail's parents. He came down to see them and thought they might be the sort of group he was looking for who could write some music for a TV programme about artist Mick Jackson and his painting. The band put together 4 tracks and then went into a BBC studio on 9th January 1970 to record them. The resulting mono tape featured 15 minutes of music. One interesting thing is that Paul Samwell-Smith (of Yardbirds fame) did the production on this recording.

A copy of the master tape together with some rapidly hand-written notes describing the ideas for the proposed programme were put together to give to a commissioning editor who would approve it. It's this copy tape (and the notes) that came to light at the end of 2001 and which were initially offered for sale via auction. No-one knows where the actual master tape of the session is or indeed if it still exists.

The four tracks recorded during the session were referred to in the notes as relating to themes of Provocation, Frustration, Manipulation and Resignation although these are not the titles of the tracks that the band gave them. These tracks contain some very interesting hints of things to come:

- Provocation includes a theme from Fountain of Salmacis plus much of what ended up in Looking For Someone (Ant remembers that the end of Looking For Someone as we know it from the version on Trespass developed here).

- Frustration is an early version of Anyway from The Lamb but with totally different lyrics.

- Manipulation is a version of F Sharp that we now know from Ant's Archive Collection (and is an early version of what became ‘Musical Box’) although this is more fully arranged with Tony Banks adding an organ part to Ant & Mike's 12-strings.

- Resignation includes parts of a track from that period called Peace which Genesis never used anywhere else."

(copied from elsewhere on the internet)

Eno's only involvement is treating the vocals on "Grand Parade", right? he might as well not even be credited.

Pretty much there, maybe Counting Out Time or Cuckoo Cocoon, places with treated vox.

Eno apparently provided a lot of "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats".

The Lamb remains one of my top 3 greatest albums of all time. Even the tracks at the end of disc 2, which sound like an amalgamation of each other, have a chill vibe that complements the rest of the album.

For me there are quite a few tracks that top 'In The Cage' so I will be sad if it wins the poll. 'In The Cage' is the only track on this double album where I can picture people bobbing their heads to a high tempo; coincidentally, upbeat folk might unite their vote on that one.

Also it might suck up votes from 80's Genesis lovers.

I need to keep telling myself that I shouldn't care about other people's opinions on this album.

And yeah, "Lilywhite Lilith", as well as bits of "The Colony of Slippermen", cops from a piece called "The Light" they used to play in concert in the pre-Nursery Cryme era (with Phil on vocals!)

Any idea where I could learn more about this? (As you can imagine the title of “The Light” on its own kind of trips up google w/r/t things Genesis have put out containing that phrase)

There's "In The Cage", which is great. I don't have the words for it but there's a sense in which the way the melodies are used gives a sense of zooming in and out of the situation.

Yeah, the moment(s) in "In the Cage" where it abruptly shifts from minor to major ("If I keep self control...") have this exhilarating change-of-perspective effect.

Pre-Lamb was fantasy; Lamb was sci-fi.

― dinnerboat, Monday, July 8, 2019 3:28 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

This pretty much sums it up musically and lyrically. On the Lamb, all the knights-and-ladies-and-dragons-and-lawnmowers imagery is replaced with chromed-out urban surrealism and contemporary pop culture references.

Also some heavy grooves!

I've written about this elsewhere, but it's a very relatable album from a genderqueer perspective.

Would love to read this if you have a link.

The fact that this album deals with sexuality at all sets it apart from most prog rock, and the way it progresses from the juvenile humor of "Counting Out Time" to the grotesque sexual body horror of "The Lamia" and "Colony of Slippermen" is fascinating.

One of my favourite moments on the album is halfway through "In the Cage" with fuzz bass and toms under the woozy harmonies on "and he looks at me without a sound," which is clearly cribbing from Tomorrow Never Knows.

Dug out the CD today to re-read Gabriel's story in the liner notes, now my head kinda hurts.

i voted for "waiting room" bc it's the most amazing shit ever when you're really stoned but now i'm thinking i should've gone for "slippermen"

i cannot believe people itt do not like "slippermen"

keep your fingers out of my eye

Man I love Slippermen. "Me? ... Like you? ... like that??"

"Don't delay, dock the dick!"

It's a yellow plastic... ~~shoobedoobe~~

Outrageous Google Doc with the story and links and photos, fan art etc:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ITGpu-3WK7bTSTLxefdQGC0O6renCkka7LH4cKkxHwU/edit#

Slippermen is so catchy and fun. At some point for me it went from being mildly embarrassing to endearingly ridiculous.

Just realised that I have 5.1 mixes of all the Genesis rekkids, wish I had an A/V amp to listen to The Lamb in surround! Can anyone report on that?

That cool little interlude connecting "In the Cage" and "Grand Parade" deserves a vote.

Oh yeah I love that part. Also the flute solos in "Cuckoo Cocoon" are so gorgeous.

That google doc is bonkers.

Anyone else rep for the live version on the Archive 1967–75 box set? It sounds great to me, and the fact that Gabriel's vocals and Hackett's guitar are re-recorded doesn't bother me in the slightest.

The overdubs bugged me at first but now I enjoy it as an ersatz reunion.

I saw The Musical Box do this album, with the original costumes and slides. It was awesome.

I have not played this record (the only Genesis album I own) since high school, 40+ years ago.

Likewise, although I used to own several more that went away in my great punk rock prog purge. Listening today, even on earbuds at work, the remastered cd sound is wonderful. I'm amazed how many of the lyrics and little musical details I remember; I must have played it a lot more at the time than I thought. I do think the second half trails off, I know I played the first LP way more than the 2nd.

Back then I would have voted "Broadway Melody," I lived for lyrics like "smell of peach blossom and bitter almonde..." Now, I'm not so sure.

"Eno apparently provided a lot of "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats"."

I don't believe that's true; I used to think that as well but everything I've read indicates that he only did treatments on Grand Parade (and it shows there). Also, welcome back, Geir.

there's a rather expensive book that was put together documenting everything about this album; it's probably OOP now, it was a very limited run and a really exhausting labor of love for the guy who did it. Site appears to be down right now for some reason but it might come back up. https://jonkirkman.co.uk/?product=genesis-the-lamb-lies-down-on-broadway-signed-hardback-copy

Guitar solo in Counting Out Time is very Eno, but I've only ever heard of him contributing to Grand Parade

Man, I love Steve Hackett's guitar tone so much, especially the fuzz he uses. I remember reading into it once and he used a pedal called the shaftsbury duo fuzz. I mentioned this once to a friend, who some years later needed to approximate Hackett for a session he was playing on. He bought a clone of that pedal, and it nailed the sound.

Any idea where I could learn more about this? (As you can imagine the title of “The Light” on its own kind of trips up google w/r/t things Genesis have put out containing that phrase)

― You can’t see it but I had an epiphany (Champiness)

There's a famous bootleg from early in '71 in Belgium. Lo-fi, bassy audience tape. (Listening to it again I know the story is that Collins sang it, but the choruses are definitely Gabriel... probably Collins/Gabriel in unison on the verses).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiYa5v6XIbU

Would love to read this if you have a link.

The fact that this album deals with sexuality at all sets it apart from most prog rock, and the way it progresses from the juvenile humor of "Counting Out Time" to the grotesque sexual body horror of "The Lamia" and "Colony of Slippermen" is fascinating.

― J. Sam

I mean, I think "Counting Out Time" is consistent with "Colony of Slippermen" - a lot of the mythology Gabriel is dealing with, deconstructing really, is the myth of the hypersexual male.

Anyway, this is the bit I wrote - it's the only review.

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/unauth/genesis/the-lamb-demos/

I'd be surprised to find out that all he did was some filtering "Grand Parade" (one of the last songs written for the record IIRC). Guitar solo on "Counting Out Time" and the nullification sound effect both fairly scream "Eno" to me.

iirc Tony Banks gets pretty annoyed whenever Eno's (overstated) role comes up. From what I recall from everything I've read about this album (which is a lot, but none of it recently), Eno really didn't do much at all on LLD, and what little he did do was done with the ulterior motive of poaching Collins to play drums on whatever he was working on at the time (Tiger Mountain? Warm Jets?). I'm pretty sure there are no keyboard or synth performances by Eno on this album.

And the "Counting Out Time" solo is definitely Hackett

I wanted to like this album more than I do. Great songs, off-putting production.

Counting Out Time

The Eno stuff is not much of a mystery. He used Phil on "Another Green World," and in return popped in to "treat" some of the vocals on this album. That's it. You can hear it on a few seconds of a couple of songs. I don't think it's Eno's doing, but I still have no idea what the guitar effect used on "Counting Out Time" is.

Maybe it was actually for Tiger Mountain that Eno got Phil? Phil is on AGW and Before and After Science as well.

Weird, I just found a quote from Banks saying that Eno did stuff on "In the Cage," too. That's the first I've seen that.

I love the thought of Banks harrumphing about Eno's non-involvement and getting all pissy about the fact no-one likes his solo albums to boot.

i've been too drunk to read this poll hooray for it existing the answer is probly the Lamia side 4 is shit i'll be back when i've read the other posts

XP - I liked The Fugitive :)

Eno apparently took his EMS Putney with him to the session and routed some vocals through it which he filtered, I'm certain there's no way he'd have played guitar on the album.

There is absolutely no way he played guitar on the record, is that even being debated?

'The Carpet Crawlers', I think, but I've always listened to this album as a fragmented yet indivisible whole. Sides 3-4 are part and parcel of the experience.

I meant it sounds like Eno could have treated the solo on Counting Out Time, not played it

Anyway is also v good, i think i voted for side 3 when we polled the sides on this, the best bit of The Cage is "sunshine in my stomach" tbh

^Do you have a link to that poll? All I could find was the Lamb vs. The Wall vs. Tommy thread

I looked, maybe it wasn't a poll, pretty sure there was a discussion somewhere

"Fly On the Windshield" is so heavy/awesome. When I listened to this album again yesterday, I really got into "Lilywhite Lilith," too. And "Back in NYC," another heavy song. I love that Jeff Buckley covered that one.

Oh, and speaking of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlX4moDYEmA

When I saw Musical Box do this, at the time they even had a left-handed balding drummer!

Holy shit, I think I knew this, but the other/former/future drummer, Martin Levac, is actually a Phil Collins impersonator!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O_CMLJRRgw

xp I was very impressed by this detail when I saw them. Esp. when he came out front to sing More Fool Me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRBhbG6jfY8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejs1G2yLBM8

Oh yeah those interviews are great. It's kind of hilarious how much Tony Banks hates on this album, though I believe he refers to "In the Cage" as "a strong piece" or something like that.

Banks seems like the biggest douchebag ever

"It was all very Spinal Tap. Cutting edge but Spinal Tap."

I don't wonder if the accumulated hassle of being drawn out on details about every single one of their albums at the time possibly drove them all a bit nuts, especially given their theoretical rep as a bunch of passive aggressive posh boys (Collins excluded), Banks looks quite angry.

Not theoretical

I think Tony Banks gets a bad rap. He may come off as unlikable in interviews but he's the closest thing this band ever had to a musical visionary. And his playing, especially during this era, is terrific.

true

I've always disliked Banks as a person, he always comes across as this villainous figure who didn't really get what made the band great, though when I go back and listen to the records he always comes across as the guy most responsible for their greatness

Eh, I'm not down with the idea of Banks as alpha visionary. Hackett was every bit the musical pioneer that Banks was, probably more so, and Peter Gabriel, obv., was not lacking in vision - in fact, Genesis was holding him back! Now Rutherford, that dude has no vision. And Phil back then was the most musically talented of them all, I'd say, but his vision was to leave the musicianship behind (eventually) and focus on the emotion/yelling.

Banks I think is the worst kind of prog prig, as he clearly believes that his classical training makes him better than everyone else, and his lack of hits outside of Genesis was because he was too good for everyone else, they just didn't get it.

fwiw individual writing credits do not seem to get broken down until after Gabriel leaves, and revert back to a collective band credit after a few albums. Is there a good guide out there to who largely contributed what?

i wasn't knocking his contributions to the band

but honestly i've never seen an interview with him where he didn't come off as a smug dick

Also, Hackett and Collins are both master level at their instruments, Banks isn't close to the level they are

Just want to repost this exchange from an interview DeRogatis did with Collins/Banks:

Did they ever wish they could lock themselves in their studio, get really stoned and cut loose to make another album as bizarrely brilliant as "The Lamb," I asked? Maybe under another name, so there were none of the expectations that came with being "pop hitmakers Genesis"?

"I suppose if one was doing that, one would probably try to be more off the wall," Banks said, transformed for a moment into the teenage musician jamming in that cottage. "I think the sheer reason for doing it would surely be to try to do a few things that might be disastrous."

"At the same time," Collins petulantly added, "it might be nice to do something like we've just done and call it a different name and see how it's received. By saying that, you're playing into -- what's your name? -- Jim's hands, because you're admitting that, because we're going in and calling it a different band, we actually have confines within Genesis that we want to stick to."

"Well, that's a fair enough comment to make," Banks said, scowling at his partner. "Because there's probably some truth in it."

don't know if I really hear Hackett as a pioneer - he's got a style, but I more often than not wonder where he is on some of these recordings. then again maybe burying the guitar was pretty innovative back then

Being a tapping pioneer alone puts Hackett heads and, well, toes above most guitarists.

I was impressed by an old clip showing Tony Banks playing classic guitar in Genesis, I'll try to track that down.

This is pretty educational:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er2GHuzlUAY

Howe helped revitalize guitar music in the 80s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARERFbiqCfk

LOL. Now that's some music Banks could probably get behind.

On the "great real names" tip, the GTR singer is Max Bacon.

The band should have called themselves Bacon. Everyone likes bacon.

I found this on a Prog forum a while back. Don't know how it was put together but it seems reasonably convincing enough:

TRESPASS

Looking For Someone (Banks-Gabriel-Phillips-Rutherford)
White Mountain (Phillips-Rutherford)
Visions of Angels (Phillips)
Stagnation (Phillips-Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Dusk (Phillips-Rutherford)
The Knife (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford-Phillips)

NURSERY CRYME

The Musical Box (Phillips-Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
For Absent Friends (Hackett-Collins)
The Return of the Giant Hogweed (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Seven Stones (Banks) or (Banks-Hackett)
Harold the Barrel (Gabriel)
Harlequin (Rutherford-Banks)
The Fountain of Salmacis (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett)

FOXTROT

Watcher of the Skies (Banks-Rutherford)
Time Table (Banks)
Get 'Em Out by Friday (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
Can Utility and the Coastliners (Hackett-Banks)
Horizons (Hackett)
Suppers Ready
a. Lovers Leap (Banks-Gabriel)
b. The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man (Banks-Gabriel)
c. Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Gabriel)
d. How Dare I Be So Beautiful? (Gabriel-Banks)
e. Willow Farm (Gabriel)
f. Apocalypse in 9/8 (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Hackett-Rutherford)
g. As Sure as Eggs is Eggs (Banks-Gabriel)

SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND

Dancing With The Moonlit Knight (Gabriel-Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Collins)
I Know What I Like (Hackett-Banks-Gabriel)
Firth of Fifth (Banks)
More Fool Me (Rutherford-Collins)
The Battle of Epping Forest (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
After The Ordeal (Hackett-Rutherford)
Cinema Show (Banks-Rutherford-Collins)
Aisle of Plenty (Gabriel-Hackett)

THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (Banks-Gabriel)
Fly on a Windshield (Banks-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
Broadway Melody of 1974 (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Cuckoo Cocoon (Hackett-Gabriel)
In the Cage (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel-Hackett-Collins)
The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
Back In NYC (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
Hairless Heart (Hackett)
Counting Out Time (Gabriel)
The Carpet Crawlers (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
The Chamber of 32 Doors (Gabriel-Banks)
Lilywhite Lilith (Banks-Rutherford-Collins-Gabriel)
The Waiting Room (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Colliins-Gabriel)
Anyway (Banks-Gabriel)
The Supernatural Anaesthitist (Hackett-Gabriel)
The Lamia (Banks-Gabriel)
Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
The Colony of Slipperman (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Ravine (Rutherford-Banks)
The Light Dies Down on Broadway (Banks-Rutherford)
Riding The Scree (Banks-Collins-Gabriel)
In The Rapids (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
It (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Gabriel-Collins)

Not 100% on everything, and I made a couple adjustments from the PE2 list, such as Cinema Show, which I thought lyrics by Gabriel/Banks, and wikipedia says Banks/Rutherford.

I think Tony comes across as much more likable than expected during his Prog awards speech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUK3QLAvH6Q

I love how all the Genesis guys still appear to be friends. I mean, in the career-spanning doc, Banks seems to be an especially big asshole to Peter! But here they are cool.

So many times during the...Showtime?...HBO?...Genesis documentary from a couple years ago, Tony said, "I quite liked what I'd written on [song], but then Peter Gabriel added his vocals and melody line, and I don't like [somg] anymore." It felt like a running joke by the fourth or fifth time.

Well, Peter's vocal melodies came quite a bit later and I think the band just got used to hearing things without the vocals. There was one song on Lamb--I forget which one--that was supposed to be an instrumental, until Gabriel decided that for whatever reason it needed lyrics

don't know if I really hear Hackett as a pioneer - he's got a style, but I more often than not wonder where he is on some of these recordings. then again maybe burying the guitar was pretty innovative back then

He seems pretty prominent on the pre-Lamb albums to me, even more pre-Selling? Some of his lead playing seems like a prototype for a lot of hard rock/metal playing that came later.

So I listened to this during a long evening of driving tonight. My vote will probably be for "Back in NYC". I also read what Wikipedia had to say about the storyline, almost all of which was news to me, although I've listened to the album many, many times over years. I think it's because the way the vocals were recorded and mixed was really original and distinctive but also largely serves to either obscure the text or at the least take my attention away from it a lot of the time. The vocal sound is very expressive but I'm not listening to the words nearly as much as with "The Musical Box" (a good earlier example of dealing with sexuality and horror btw!) or "Supper's Ready", which is curious for an album where the lyrical narrative seems to have been important to Gabriel.

There's some crazy Hackett stuff on "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight." Crazy Phil fills, too.

Ha, I was listening to "Dancing..." when I was typing that, actually.

Come to think about, listen to Steve's solo on "The Musical Box."

Gabriel sums up what made Hackett an innovative guitarist in a BBC doc from the ‘90s. When the band was auditioning guitarists after Anthony Phillips left, he says, all the other guys they were seeing were “into notes and flash. Steve was into atmosphere.”

xp Epping Forest was meant to be an instrumental, but the lyrics/melody/singing is my favourite part.

Come to think about, listen to Steve's solo on "The Musical Box."

There's a close up of him tapping in 1972 around 4:09 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W35wtfcByIY

Whole solo is classic ofc.

That's the one with Tony playing guitar!

"but honestly i've never seen an interview with him where he didn't come off as a smug dick"

Anil Prasad just interviewed him (not published yet) and said it was one of the best interviewed he's ever done; I know Banks was a huge influence on his life and if you follow or know Anil he actually is pretty dismissive of prog people and uptight assholes in general. So I'm interested to see how Banks comes across.

From interviews, it kind of seems like Steve is the only guy who still unapologetically loves the prog albums. I think he says in the Selling England interview that he thought they were the best band in the world.

Anil Prasad usually gets the best out of the people he interviews so I wouldn't be surprised if he comes off well in it

To me, Banks comes across more "Wynton Marsalis smug" or "John Zorn smug" than "Mike Love smug." This to me is an important distinction.

"Anil Prasad usually gets the best out of the people he interviews so I wouldn't be surprised if he comes off well in it"

his new interview with Jakko from Crimson is simply great.

To me, Banks comes across more "Wynton Marsalis smug" or "John Zorn smug" than "Mike Love smug." This to me is an important distinction.

― Paul Ponzi

who would be more offended at being mentioned in the same breath as the other: wynton marsalis or john zorn?

Almost definitely Marsalis, I would think

Hmm, I dunno, that is a tough one!

Prescriptivist traditionalist vs hyper-eclectic postmodern = no contest who would take more offence afaict but idk has Zorn ever expressed disgust about other musical movements?

No, he's too into his own shit, prolly. Outsider gonna outside.

There's this one chordal move they do several times throughout the album that just kills me every time. Prime examples would be the end of both Broadway Melody and Cuckoo Cocoon. I don't have the firmest grasp on music theory, but it seems like they're resolving to the I chord with the iii in the bass, which aurally conveys a sense of "to be continued"

Grand Parade has the most outrageous crescendo I can think of. I hope someone throws a vote at it. Might have to be me. Also seriously considering voting for Supernatural Anaesthetist. Beautiful chord progression plus my favorite Hackett solo. He's such a fine dancer...

Or Cuckoo Cocoon, which sounds like being wrapped in the coziest warm blanket or, uh, cocoon, which I guess is the point.

Anyway this is the hardest decision I've ever had to make.

"The Lamia" was one that stood out last time I listened. "Back in NYC" probably still getting the vote, though.

Back in NYC -> Hairless Heart is one of my favorite sequences, the way they go from the over-the-top machismo of the former to the forlorn introspection of the latter

Re: Lamia, "It is the scent of garlic that lingers on my chocolate fingers" is such a weirdly, grotesquely evocative line. Tony Banks probably hated it being grafted to his composition lol

It's fair to say that all that revolting/creepy imagery went out the window when Gabriel left

"Home by the Sea:" creepy!
"Illegal Alien:" revolting!

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

tomorrow

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Not bad! The last Genesis tour, it was pretty jarring to hear them do "Carpet Crawlers" immediately followed by "Invisible Touch."

If Windshield and Broadway Melody were sequenced as one song--as they should have been--it would absolutely have been a contender here. Typically, the second LP is underrepresented in the poll, which is as it should be. I don't necessarily get the crazy "Carpet Crawlers" love but I'm cool with these results

There was no wrong answer, really.

otm

I’m satisfied with the results

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Ml1QDdNZ0

^^^ dope

TS: Gilbert/Giraffe vs The Musical Box

Watched a bit of that. Musical Box seems more "authentic" but maybe these guys are slicker?

I saw MB do Selling England (and more) and thought they did a good job. Still have't watched their Lamb show on youtube.

I've seen them do both and they were both great, though (I'm sure I posted about this before) when I saw them do "Lamb" I want to say they had the Phil Collins impersonator on drums, who could sing like Phil, looked like Phil, and even played left-handed like Phil.

Noted Genesis freak Ryley Walker did a nice acoustic cover of Counting Out Time
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-XvYI6jjlr/

Finally getting into the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway after a period of longing to connect but being repelled by it.

Been really drawn to the way it sounds, the strong sense of setting and landscape, and how it somehow defies the album format, or record or whatever. Part of it is that it seems to exist in a stage of space- and the perspective of a stage is reinforced by specific lyrical cues ("the stage is set for you") as well as the kind of theater ensemble nature of the music. Like, there are very few overdubs as far as I can tell, but it's hardly a 'band playing together in a room' kind of vibe, it's a rehearsed performance.

The thing is, there are all these shifts in perspective, along (am i crazy???) a vertical (???!!!) axis... it zooms way out at times, and sort of plants you at the center of the stage at others. I mean, wtf? Did they record it in a really tall building or something? Idgi? Part of it is probably illusory, as a result of inconsistencies in the lyrical perspective (shifting from 1st person to 3rd etc) that feel arbitrary or even faulty, but now that i that i think about it, must surely be deliberate and may be kind of masterful.

The "backdrop" is very convincing, as a Manhattanite of many years, as well as that vertical element there's a high contrast of bright and dark against clean black negative space, that conjures the city lights at night... Or am i importing the sense of contrast from the artwork? Or my own surroundings?

Seriously, wtf is going on here?

Anyway it's a pretty amazing piece of work, I think THE DRAMA kept me away for a time but I am getting really absorbed in THE DRAMA, at this point.

A good example is in the opening track where the band mostly cuts out and Peter Gabriel sings about the scene finding focus in the lamb's face and his vocal is framed by the arpeggiating keys... That has a very grounding, centering effect.
And then the band comes back in with a soaring height like a skyscraper, then the mix opens out horizontally when he sings "on broadway"

"Hovering like a fly" as the music hovers is another. The lyrics are def a big part of it.

This album shouldn’t work but it totally does and I love it to death.

Love this album, but the first half is more compelling than the second, where (thematically or no) things start getting a little too abstract and unmoored, which is to say, decidedly *not* grounded. Still love the mood of all the later album weirdness, though!

Got to bat for the second half in a big way, although the first half is pretty much perfect and could stand up as an album alone

A lot of Genesis stuff stemmed from improvisation, but a lot of the second half sounds improvised, which is a big distinction. Again, not bad, just not as good as the first half, which is better than most stuff. High bar!

Re: second half: “It” is such a great song, maybe the best on the album!

I've always had a problem with "It" because it reminded me of my local Action News or whatever TV theme from growing up.

The sound on this record is unusually tactile, especially for Genesis, and that effect is increased by lyrics that describe a wide array of physical sensations and locations. The guitars and synths are run through a lot of effects, and the overdubbing is often so thick that the songs have a mix of confusing textures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1eux1slrpE

I think this might have been posted in another Genesis thread, but it's interesting to hear Gabriel talk about The Lamb being a conscious effort to move from the pastoral to something more gritty and urban, and there being (pre-)punk vibes in the air.

And Banks continuing to hate on it, of course

Of course on the musical side, the album is dominated by Banks

His antipathy is understandable; he didn't think half of the music was that strong in the first place, and then had to do dozens of shows playing it all in order to audiences that were not necessarily loving it.

Kinda curious how The Lamb was the focus of the 2005 5-piece reunion discussions, considering everything

That video feels like a family therapy session.

As much as I love this album, the second half feels a lot weaker than the first - I usually wind up skipping through it after hearing the first disc in its entirety.

I never knew what people found so great about "The Waiting Room", Genesis should leave that kind of improvisation to Henry Cow or King Crimson. On the other hand, "The Lamia" would be in my Genesis top 10.
The remixed version of the record brings out a lot of detail in instrumentals like "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats" and "Ravine" that got lost in the original, rushed mix.

Any details on what happened with the original mix? Deadline pressure?

They discuss it in the video; they were mixing 24 hours a day, with different band members supervising in shifts, each in charge of mixing one of the LP sides. Banks describes coming in at the start of his shift and finding that the previous team had mixed "IT" without including the guitar track.

I don't think anyone really likes Waiting Room, besides Brad when he's stoned

the 2nd album is for sure weaker, though tbf if it wasn't this would probably be the greatest album ever made

revisited this for the first time since....uh this poll started I guess. starting to come around to the idea that the first record kind of needs the second. even though the first record is insane on its own. I know the band has talked about how they were kind of rushed at the end, does anyone know why it's so long then? it's over an hour and a half, which even for a double is really long. I actually kinda like the stuff that I suspect was written on the fly though. "Riding the Scree" for instance I think really bottles up the way Banks writes his stuff. anyway the thing I think really stands out now that I'm really listening is the drumming. Collins is such a beast on this, even when his drums are buried he's going nuts - the way he plays the hi-hats on "Carpet Crawlers" almost sounds like a glitched out drum machine.

The drumming at the end of "The Lamia" finally being audible was what stood out for me about the remix.

The Lamb being a conscious effort to move from the pastoral to something more gritty and urban, and there being (pre-)punk vibes in the air.

lol. urban, definitely. theater district, to be more precise. album title otm, it's like 'street punk: the musical'

i like the album tbc, it's super weird and gets awkward and uncomfortable but more surreal than gritty, really.

xxp - which remix is this? I have a CD from 2004 or thereabouts, plus an original vinyl, unfortunately it's kind of beat up which sucks because there are so many quiet parts. I am looking to upgrade so if there's a nice remaster out there I'm definitely interested.

The 2008 remix.

To hear Phil's full power listen to the Shrine show from Archives 2 box. And he was singing the WHOLE time. Phil was an absolute monster during thing period.

Also PG has fully copped to stealing the whole story from El Topo.

spending some time with this tonight, the tension between old and nu Genesis on the album feels more palpable to me than it used to -- the pastoralisms and Canturbury-jazz moods (Hairless Heart, In the Cage) feel here they're a foil for the more accessible place PG's that's calling to PG's heart & muse (the title track, Back in NYC, Counting Out Time). But within a few years three out of the four remaining will feel the same pull toward more trad song structure, toward being heard. I find this tension more irritating than satisfying in the album as a whole -- if there were a third impulse to complicate things it might not feel, to me, like this is a band who just can't agree on what they're trying to do. still, when I stop thinking about all that and just sink into it -- such good sounds, a really good flow. I like the proggier bits better generally but when Gabriel finds his pocket, when he plucks a melody he can really bite into, it's glorious.

"counting out time" playing in the room as I type...fuck I loved this song so much when I was a kid, "unexpected dis-stress from my mistress" felt like the coolest damn delivery and the chord sequence was so exactly my thing,

please strikthrough that first "PG's" as you read if you read tyvm.

This album was playing the other day at a record store while i was browsing, and I was really surprised by how good it sounded. I had the album as a kid (Genesis was the first band I did a full back catalogue deep-dive on), and I honestly didn't think much of it then. But hearing it on a proper sound system, the production and the songwriting were both a lot better than I remembered. And yeah, "Counting Out Time" was the one that really jumped out.

yeah it's such a track, and it also sounds to me like PG saying "I want to make pop songs. I like Motown and I wanna make pop songs, guys" and the guys going "...but prog, right?"

The album ultimately does kind of (figuratively and literally) lose the plot, but the first half and smatterings of the second remain pretty rad. It's definitely transitional in discography context, but still cool and full of surprises. And subtle Enosification.

the good bits of "Counting Out Time" are great it's true but i feel like there's a bit of cheesiness - i don't hate that but i hear it - in the delivery, arrangement? not sure what. the opening basically. it's much better when it hits stride

the title track embraces the R'n'B soul vibe more fully maybe

wait i thought the music was written by all the others and PG just added lyrics?

that's the story but idk

also my understanding is that Phil at least had always been an R'n'B fan

wait i thought the music was written by all the others and PG just added lyrics?

I think that's mostly true, but "Counting Out Time" was one of Peter's songs, according to Tony (here).

Tony: "It's all about... early sexual experiences, trying to do it by the book." *embarrassed shrug*

Phil and Peter are both longtime soul/r&b fans, as their solo stuff would evince (if not always enforce).

kinda difficult to figure out what music PG actually wrote for the band, obviously he gets a lot of songwriting credits for the lyrics/conceptual stuff but none of his solo material sounds a thing like Genesis. outside of like the first song on his debut

Willow Farm from Supper's Ready was Gabriel's song too, he seemed to write in that jaunty piano-led style in his early days. Personally I could do without Counting Out Time and most of side 4. As I said on the Duke thread, remove about 15 minutes from most of the 70s-era Genesis albums and you have a better album.

Excuse Me from his first album is another of the Flanders & Swann numbers

Iirc Yes would always say their songs kept getting longer because everyone kept bringing in bits and pieces they didn't want cut.

xps I think Harold the Barrel was all PG too.

and yet their albums are pretty economical! outside of Tales of course. but I never really felt there was a lot of noodling or unnecessary bits on them, whereas yea every Genesis album from like 1971-1981 feels like it could've been trimmed

its kind of rough out there for people who collect prog vinyl, you got King Crimson albums that are full of dead quiet parts so you need clean vinyl, and Genesis stuffs 25-28 minutes on a side so you have to crank it meaning the surface noise is often a bit more pronounced. and you need a good stylus as well. but Yes doesn't have those problems :)

I think Harold the Barrel was all PG too.

lol my favorite genesis tune bar none

Love how Gabriel pronounces "Manhattan" like "man had honor" on the title track

yeah, I love that too, it's like, for just a moment, he's Mark E Smith

I’ve always been surprised that Back in NYC was not totally written by PG.

echoes of the broadway everglades

love how everything melts here

lol i'd forgotten the silly Bonzos break in "Counting Out Time"

I’ve always been surprised that Back in NYC was not totally written by PG.

yeah it does have a bit of a Dodo/Lurker/ABCAB feel to it. I still feel like that song is very future-feeling, and that they kind of retreated from this for the rest of the decade

haha Abacab.

I would have said that the one-bass-note-on-a-Taurus-pedal in "Back in NYC" is also very Mike Rutherford, but apparently he didn't start using them until 1976.

Love how Gabriel pronounces "Manhattan" like "man had honor" on the title track

― J. Sam

wait that lyric is "manhattan"?

i have a soft spot for "counting out time"... that guitar break sounds very enossified to my ears, and the lyric, well, the only way i could think to work out sex was by numbers ("try writing the alphabet with your tongue"), and it never really worked for me. so i found that song very relatable.

I'll admit I don't know a lot about the sex habits of Puerto Rican adolescent boys in 1974 New York, but I would assume Rael would be less likely to learn about sex from a presumably non-pornographic instruction manual than an upper-middle-class UK student at an all-male boarding school in the 60s would have been. That's a failure of characterization on Gabriel's part.

*embarrassed shrug*

Box set is out. Gave most of the atmos mix version of album a listen on airpods last night; some nice choices, some weird ones; better on the whole than the nick davis mix I guess? The live show is more or less identical to the one already released on Archives 1 (which is OOP now anyway), complete with Gabriel's 90's era vocal overdubs, but there are a few differences; apparently this was actually remixed a few years ago but never released. As I have a very good vinyl pressing of this album, I'm passing on buying this because I've stopped repurchasing records I already have. If they'd actually put more than three tracks of demos on here it would be a different story; these sound amazing, it's a total miss on their part not to have done a full album's worth of demo/early takes/alternate mixes. There's like 6 hours of these on bootlegs but they sound awful in comparison.

New "Lamb" remaster wasn't particularly revelatory to my ears (on headphones), but it did sound great, and every time they take a remaster pass on it they further emphasize the hypnotic low-end of the pulsing bass pedals and, for that matter, Mike Rutherford's really cool basslines.

Finally located the non overdubbed Shrine show from Wolfgang’s Vault, there are now so many different versions of this thing floating around. Interesting to really give the original vox a listen all the way through. I can see why he wanted to redo so many, but it’s far from a disaster.