the worst thing about orchestras

french horns. whenever they start up with their elegiac, wistful tones i stand up, throw down my hat and say 'fuck this shit'

THEY'RE ASSHOLES

they don’t pay their players enough

waste of space

don't think the conductor actually does anything

they can’t swing (except for swing orchestras)

Sometimes they pay their players too much, but their players have an inflated sense of entitlement considering that they're involved in an irrelevant and dying art form only supported by largesse of rich people who are beholden to outdated cultural signifiers

But they're good for movie soundtracks

there aren't enough of them

They glare at anyone who claps between movements

rosin dust all over the string section

french horns are awesome, i call shenanigans on this thread

orchestras in general are awesome

https://thebaffler.com/salvos/strike-with-the-band-wagner

They glare at anyone who claps between movements

They glare extra hard at anyone who claps on the off beat during movements.

pathetic beats

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

There are very few inputs to any of the senses that I like more than the sound of an orchestra.

Worst three things about them are

I will never get to write for one
I can’t afford to go live often
Uncanny valley quality simulations of them sound absolutely fucking terrible but will eventually take over 100%

The complete absence of any visual signs of emotional engagement with the music they're playing.

uh waht

maybe my perspective is skewed because I've been on stage with most of the orchestras I've heard and therefore am practically on top of the players but that is just hilariously, ludicrously wrong

go too far down that road and we end up with andre rieu and shit

Duke Ellington's Orchestra (or, as they were billed, Duke Ellington And His Famous Orchestra) was surely the most important and influential of the 20th century. There is no "worst thing" about it.

TBF I have definitely been to some orchestral performances where they have definitely been mererly going through the motions (cf. Henry Wood’s comments wrt Beethoven when he took over the proms), but an orchestra with passion is a truly wonderful thing. Last thing that really blew me away was Teodor Currntzis doing Beethoven’s 5th which was the very opposite of just phoning it in.

why do they always wear black, try some color, people

Why don't they play synths yo

Sometimes they do and it's lame (ie when a dance music person collaborates with an orchestra to get that grant money)

Also why does drummer not play blast beats

Insisting on doing, like, 'tributes' to Daft Punk or Lil Wayne or something

i opened this thread expecting at least one fingering/tonguing joke attempt.

Programming is an issue, for sure, but the worst thing about orchestras is that there are not enough of them.

Also the other worst thing about orchestras is that the AFM hasn’t reformed the same residuals mandate that originated in the early 70s, and it is impossible to feasibly hire a North American orchestra for recording as a result

Much to Prague’s benefit

Too much 19th century European music.

I used to use the Prague orchestra. They were good! I use another one now.

Honestly orchestras are a wonderful, living breathing thing. Along with "the piano" and "the organ" and "a choir" they are truly one of humanity's finest musical creations. I have no concept of why anyone would disparage an orchestra.

they still think lasers are cool

Sometimes they pay their players too much, but their players have an inflated sense of entitlement considering that they're involved in an irrelevant and dying art form only supported by largesse of rich people who are beholden to outdated cultural signifiers

The only one allowed to pull any stank faces is the conductor, and he's not facing us.

They're the aural mirror image of totalitarianism.

french horns are wonderful and underused

Proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fo2qIKsSj8

Forgot pt. II (video dates from YT's prehistory):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CNMpW8BwCQ

Hell yeah Ligeti really figured out some amazing things abt that instrument

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YblCUBsc584

(Skip ahead to 2:55 for the best part)

Fuck yeah, love me some

Hamburgisches Konzert

Used q instead of i for whatever reason. Whatever, it deserves to be INDENTED.

See also Messiaen ‘Appel Insterstellaire’

Or for romantic era total ass kicking, Schumann Konzerstuck for 4 horns and orchestra

*Interstellaire

classically-trained musicians are highly-specialised workers whose daily labour is built on decades of physically and mentally taxing practice, often unpaid for years before they make their first paycheque, and they deserve to be paid accordingly

But doing so doesn't entitle them to anything. You can say the exact same thing about jazz musicians, and that they 'deserve' to be paid accordingly, but they're definitely not.

I know tons of bitter jazz musicians, but I once had dinner with a number of long-tenured symphony orchestra musicians, and I've never since met a group that was so bitter, entitled, and seemingly lacking any affection at all for music or the process of making it. And these are people making six figures and working a few days a week. I mean, I know that if you get a bunch of professional musicians together there will be griping, but this was on another level.

When (as with the Vienna Philharmonic) they are reluctant to appoint women or ethnic minorities into their ranks. They didn't accept women until 1997.

Vienna tho.

they still think lasers are cool

LASERS ARE COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Six-figure salaries are surely not typical for most orchestras??

It is in Chicago/LA/NYC, I think. This was in Milwaukee, which starts lower, but these musicians had been there for decades.

Huh. Nice irk if you can get it, as the old joke goes.

When (as with the Vienna Philharmonic) they are reluctant to appoint women or ethnic minorities into their ranks. They didn't accept women until 1997.

― van dyke parks generator (anagram), Saturday, September 7, 2019 10:57 AM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A discrimination lawsuit filed by the bassist and composer Art Davis against the New York Philharmonic in the '70s ultimately led to symphony orchestras instituting blind auditions, at least in the US.

It is in Chicago/LA/NYC, I think. This was in Milwaukee, which starts lower, but these musicians had been there for decades.

bg outed as a member of the Euroimperialist bourgeoisie by association.

Never in doubt tbh.

i go to the gallows with a clean conscience, secure in the knowledge that lol we’re all gonna die

xps: sure, in pounds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/arts/music/chicago-symphony-orchestra-strike.html

itt: ilx0rs come out swinging against labour unions

I support unions, but it seems like a dinosaur of an institution where the compensation is way out of line with the demand and the money coming in.

Especially considering the almost total lack of institutional support for any other musicians in the U.S.

I'm sure everything is more equal in Canada and the EU

Why do they mostly just play what's written on a piece of paper in front of them? Odds are it's already been played and recorded many times before.

It'd be cool if they sometimes just, y'know, _jammed_ like yr blooz dudes do.

Like, instead of "Ladies and gentlemen, this is J.S. Beetzart's Camry in H minor, opus number Kmart 4337," could they ever be like "Hey this is a funk jam in B, keep it loose and follow me for the changes. I'll solo for eight bars then pass it on via eyebrow cues."

I support unions, but it seems like a dinosaur of an institution where the compensation is way out of line with the demand and the money coming in.

Especially considering the almost total lack of institutional support for any other musicians in the U.S.

Yep, good characterization of the entirety of non-classical music (which mostly lacks any semblance of hierarchical structure that would support collective bargaining, these days at least)

Jordan, what do you think orchestras should be doing with their money instead of wasting it on paying the musicians?

the old lady two seats down crinkling something in her purse for 5 minutes

I think they have too much money given their role in society, and ideally that money would be better distributed, maybe in the form of grants to organizations & individuals that are building more accessible arts-related things in the community

Symphony orchestras aren’t a useful target for your redistributive program ffs

Sort of related idk https://watt.cashmusic.org/writing/institutionalizationofrock

"too much money given their role in society"?

woooow.

While we’re at it, let’s get rid of all the actors

Oh Jordanpaws

also I would like it if chamber choirs were dissolved and replaced with holograms, money better spent IMO

Mercifully, we've got the free market to weed out useless art forms and ensure that pop remains ever triumphant.

the invisible hand of Phil Spector

scores of aspiring orchestral musicians put themselves through a grueling gauntlet of training and acculturation that instills in them the sense of being abject failures should they fail to attain one of the scarce permanent positions playing for a legit ensemble. many amazingly talented orchestral musicians really, sincerely hate themselves & (secondarily) the system they bought into!

Mercifully, we've got the free market to weed out useless art forms and ensure that pop remains ever triumphant.

― pomenitul

i'm sorry, i just woke up, did you say "free weed"?

worst thing about orchestras is that going to see them somehow always manages to put me to sleep even when they're a good orchestra playing exciting music that i love. what the hell is up with that?

on thursday night i saw Yuja Wang place rachmaninov's piano concerto no. 3 and it was like seeing van halen or something. just outrageous. she had this room of about 4500 people in the palm of her hand. sweepin us up, swoopin us down. if they'd replaced the french horns with bassoons or something it would have been perfect.

PLAY not place

this was it:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0008422

scores of aspiring orchestral musicians put themselves through a grueling gauntlet of training and acculturation that instills in them the sense of being abject failures should they fail to attain one of the scarce permanent positions

lol this is all highly educated career path aspirants now when their fields aren't treated as immediately monetizable (including scientists!)

Why should this one form of (increasingly irrelevant) music get such a disproportionate amount of institutional support though? Especially when most people can't even afford to go see it.

Jazz is considered 'institutionalized' at this point, although I think it's really in an in-between zone. Some big name jazz musicians might get included in the season's programming at a big arts organization, but jazz musicians don't get pensions or health insurance (unless they're professors at a university).

You can get into the symphony here for $30ish, comparable to any other concert, plus you get a seat!

I mean the solution to your complaints is communism, not tearing down the orchestra.

Like in any case where you perceive an unjust allocation of resources, I suggest you look into communism. As long as you’re like advocating remaking society.

Anyway the worst thing about the orchestra is not being able to clap for soloists mid-movement

the same thing that has given the orchestra a disproportionate amount of institutional support has also prevented you from being able to clap for soloists mid-movement!

orchestras should get rid of all those violins. that would save a lot of money and would make them sound less schmaltzy.

Why should this one form of (increasingly irrelevant) music get such a disproportionate amount of institutional support though?

Disproportionate to what? This article has a few points:

Orchestras don't have the opportunity to spread these costs over a large number of performances, either.

"Unlike a musical, which has a lot of set-up costs and can then run for a year and a half to cover the initial cost, an orchestra might spend two or three days in rehearsal and then do two or three performances — that's it!" says David Throsby, a distinguished professor of economics at Macquarie University.

Then there's the additional services most modern orchestras offer: education programs and school performances.

Regional tours require the organisation and expenditure of something like a military campaign — instruments must be transported with care, musicians must be housed and fed — but the venues are smaller and the ticket prices lower.

This 2016 report by the League of American Orchestras has some granular info on community involvement:

• In 2014, free attendance at orchestra performances, activities, and other musical events was at its highest point in the previous five-year period, and the lowest ticket prices offered were at their cheapest and most affordable level (OSR).
• In 2014, the 98 orchestras in our sample delivered almost 19,000 Education and Community Engagement performances, musical activities, and other events, deepening the experience of orchestral music for communities who would typically not otherwise engage with the symphony. Eighty-five percent of these events took place outside of the concert hall, including the 60% of the total that took place in schools (EdCE survey).

on thursday night i saw Yuja Wang place rachmaninov's piano concerto no. 3 and it was like seeing van halen or something. just outrageous. she had this room of about 4500 people in the palm of her hand. sweepin us up, swoopin us down. if they'd replaced the french horns with bassoons or something it would have been perfect.

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand)

OK I am DONE with people shitting on french horns in this thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Q_csDLMyk

whenever people start talking about busting unions i try and change the subject to police unions, can we at least agree that we should bust police unions

lol this is all highly educated career path aspirants now when their fields aren't treated as immediately monetizable (including scientists!)

i guess that is true! i went through the scientist version of that ritual (or i extricated myself from it before getting too deep into a phd program lol -- tho still at tremendous cost to my mental health!) so it's the most immediately obvious aspect of that world of classical music hopefuls, at least as far as i saw. and to me it seemed that what they go through is perhaps among the most intense and potentially devastating versions of that trajectory. i feel for them.

Disproportionate to what?

To pretty much all other music, which is left to rot in the marketplace.

Like in any case where you perceive an unjust allocation of resources, I suggest you look into communism. As long as you’re like advocating remaking society.

Sounds great! But given that rich people/endowments/etc are pouring money into sustaining this very particular tradition of Western classical music...for me, personally, it seems like an unwieldy and outmoded way of making music, and maybe that money could be better spent elsewhere!

Ok, I'm out. For a thread on the worst thing about orchestras, you all really love orchestras!

Orchestral music can’t survive at all in “the marketplace,” it relies on other support (that’s the point of the first article I posted). Which other forms of supposedly “rotting” music would like to see subsidized, and how? Guess you won’t answer, ‘cuz you’ve bounced.

I mean jazz would be the obvious next in line. But most music can't really survive very well either these days, at least not with any hope of being a professional. But I hear about people in other countries being more easily able to get grants to run venues, pursue an ambitious musical project, etc, and it sounds nice! And it does irritate me that in the U.S., that seems to be limited to a very specific sort of music and centered around a bullshit high/low culture divide.

Jazz, music of the people

literally yes

“high/low culture divide”

Just saw the most amazing Italian world-renowned composer Ludovico Einaudi play with 2 pieces in a living room! The amount of emotion and visions classical music can trigger literally IS life!! Just piano and strings and im THERE!!! Gaaaaaahh I LOVE MUSIC ✨✨✨ so inspired 😭

— Victoria Monét (@VictoriaMonet) June 14, 2019

Gotta suck being in an orchestra and having to learn all those John Williams scores.

I went to a music summer camp once and we had a newsletter that printed handwritten notes from the students and one said John Williams is the best composer of all time and the Editor angrily added "UHH, NO!!!"

Not sure what point you're trying to make there morris?

That lots of people love classical music, and orchestras also program many events with broad appeal. Check out the upcoming LAPhil calendar (just to use my local example): https://www.laphil.com/events/

(And my point w/the Victoria tweet was that the “divide” may be more in your head than reality, when it comes to different types of music.)

Taylor Swift a noted fan of John Luther Adams: https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/classical-music/pop-megastar-taylor-swift-donates-50000-to-seattle-symphony/

John Luther Adams is ambient

Ambient is classical.

Erik Satie invented ambient 100 years ago

The $ went to the orchestra. Inspired in large part by a performance of Become Ocean, which is scored for orchestra. Genre labels seem beside the point here tbh.

Kinda on Jordan’s side here meself. orchestras are absolutely a gross upper-class patronage thing

While jazz is institutionally ignored?

https://www.jazz.org/events/2019-20-season/
https://www.lacma.org/events-calendar?event_hub=Jazz+at+LACMA
https://www.thewright.org/component/itsocial/event/3367

LOL, no orchestras in the world are self-sustaining, pretty gross that they’re being kept alive via philanthropy and institutional support. Let classical music go bankrupt!

Yes, any art that the commercial marketplace won't support has no reason to exist. Fuck it all - teen pop and chud-rock for everyone!

Arguments about public funding are familiar and, I guess, understandable. Folks finding private philanthropy distasteful is less familiar. I mean, much of the arts is kept afloat by bequests etc in my neck of the woods. Is the argument still "it should have gone to hospitals" or whatever, re private donations?

should have gone to cascadian black metal bands

Presumably all Nazis.

I find it much more upsetting that rich people give money to hospitals. Like what the fuck?

easiest place to add a wing on something that lots of people will see the name of

Yeah but hospitals are the worst!!

(And my point w/the Victoria tweet was that the “divide” may be more in your head than reality, when it comes to different types of music.)

I wasn't talking about aesthetics, I was talking funding.

While jazz is institutionally ignored?

Jazz musicians get a gig, not a salary and benefits (aside from university professors, but that's a different thing).

Not that different.

Jordan, do you mainly just want more funding for non-orchestral musicians in the US or do you also want orchestral musicians to be punished somehow?

Or at the least defunded

xxp You said the fact that orchestras receive donations is due to a “bullshit high/low divide.” I’ve pointed out that (a) this funding is apparently the only way major orchestras can survive today, which is not true of jazz combos, rock bands, barbershop quartets, EDM guys, etc.; and (b) your “high-low” take further breaks down when you consider that orchestral music is taught in schools, enjoyed by many, and is learned/loved/appreciated by artists who work in many genres — and is arguably more universal than your counterexample of jazz, which (nothing against it) has a very highbrow/elite aura and is just as institutionally celebrated as “high art.”

32 violins but only one pair of maracas at most

I'm still struggling with "irrelevant art form". Can someone point out a relevant artform so I can better grasp the distinction?

Wow this thread got weird. All arts should be funded by the government. I’m not personally anti-union— I support the AFM! but the structure of paying out residuals cannot happen any more. Record labels do not have the infrastructure to even calculate that shit. Disney hands $1m to an orchestra to get them to work off contract. I’m not alone in feeling this way, the leaders of my local have written articles in the newsletter expressing the same sentiment.

It could be wrong, but I think that I read once that VDParks was partially responsible for the residual model when he worked at Warner? I could be wrong. Anyway this isn’t a case of “we need to give musicians less power” it’s that this model is actually currently untenable.

shitby

Fuck it all - teen pop and chud-rock for everyone!

Sounds like you hate democracy.

should have gone to cascadian black metal bands

― j., Sunday, September 8, 2019 3:05 AM (eight hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Right when I read this post, a dog howled in the distance.

I'm still struggling with "irrelevant art form". Can someone point out a relevant artform so I can better grasp the distinction?

https://news.avclub.com/the-smash-mouth-musical-exists-and-its-all-all-star-1829723236

lol

First of all, I'm not saying orchestras should be defunded, I would just like some parity when it comes to arts funding.

which is not true of jazz combos, rock bands, barbershop quartets, EDM guys, etc.

I disagree with this. Sure, it's easy to have one of these because the infrastructure costs are much lower, but nearly impossible to make it a career.

I'm still struggling with "irrelevant art form". Can someone point out a relevant artform so I can better grasp the distinction?

Idk, what was the last new work you went to see a full orchestra perform?

Not that this doesn't happen, but I don't hear about it, ever.

Ffs arts funding is such a minuscule part of any government’s budget, “wanting some say” is imo the wrong attitude (I.e. getting to say which bodies get funding) when instead we can just universally be asking for more funding across the board

I’d get into this fight abt BSS because that band received $1m of grants over a ten year period and people were annoyed and I’m like “no, give them more, give more to other bands, too”.

Anyway did you know that there are hundreds of orchestras across Finland? Every town has one. Finland has the same population as NYC. NYC now has one orchestra

Finland has simply failed to grasp that classical music is outmoded and irrelevant and elitist. It'll come around as soon as it accepts the civilizational supremacy of American pop culture.

The sole democratic art form, in case you were wondering.

Anyway did you know that there are hundreds of orchestras across Finland? Every town has one.

Citation needed.

https://fmq.fi/articles/orchestras-for-all

Thanks. Bit of hyppiäbole going on itt.

Idk, what was the last new work you went to see a full orchestra perform?

I generally only see orchestra concerts I’m performing in (#flex) but every major American symphony debuts commissioned pieces every year. Plus, this question implies that the only music worth hearing in performance is new music, which is a 100% bullshit stance regardless of genre.

That Finnish website makes a good case for the cultural importance of its (state-funded) orchestras.

this question implies that the only music worth hearing in performance is new music, which is a 100% bullshit stance regardless of genre.

Djp otm. You want to criticize me for not keeping up with new work? Okay, demonstrate that you've listened to everything there is from every previous century and we'll talk.

Indeed, this is true in all the arts. I have a friend who is a decently successful playwright, and I recently caught myself apologizing to him because, given my limited budget and time to go to the theater, I still actively want to go see Shakespeare. Then I thought, wtf? Shakespeare is fucking great a lot of the time. I should not be apologizing for liking what I like.

So if I am not aware of the latest, crunkest, twerkest trend, friend: have you listened to all of Telemann yet? If not, stfu.

My friend Erik routinely enters contests for new pieces for a variety of instruments and he often wins and has orchestral ensembles play them live.

But also yes DJP otm

That's kind of a consumerist way to approach art. I get being afraid of becoming rockist and everybody ignoring new music in lieu of championing the same five works until the end of time but yee gods, who cares even if an orchestra specializes in centuries old pieces?

"yo u get the new Mozart cassingle?"

Personally I'm most attracted to rhythm and texture in music, so orchestral music doesn't interest me that much tbh. And I've always been interested in new music for whatever reason. This should not come as a surprise to anyone who's ever read my posts or heard music I've been involved in.

Okay, demonstrate that you've listened to everything there is from every previous century and we'll talk.

Well, I've made a pretty good study of jazz.

"Mozart Cassingle" is the name of my Falco tribute band, btw

Personally I'm most attracted to rhythm and texture in music, so orchestral music doesn't interest me that much tbh.

Ok this is the most wtf sentence I've read in, er, weeks.

that makes it sound like orchestral music is gelatinous

Obv orchestras have some of the richest textural resources available and there is no music without rhythm. Jordan looks for a groove ime.

But Stravinsky, Bartók, American minimalism…

Beethoven's "Mothership Connection"

xxxp knowing Jordan's work and history helps there, it totally makes sense to me. dude is a drummer!

Jordan, totally cool for you to be interested in what you're interested in and to like what you like!

Indeed, for me, that's the point - extending the same privilege to other listeners who are interested in what they're interested in and who like what they like. Even when they're "wrong." Perhaps _especially_ when they're "wrong."

But we can still have useful and interesting discussion about what art gets lionized, what art gets dunding, what art has popular support, what art gets critical/cultural accolades.

Dunding? Funding obv

I'd call it a stretch to say that the orchestral writing of the first two keeps the kind of regular groove like you might find in New Orleans jazz or techno. American minimalism certainly does but usually not in orchestral writing. xp to pomenitul

It's not as regular, sure, which I suppose is a dealbreaker for some listeners.

Most of it feels rather gelatinous to me actually.

I like some Morton Feldman and Bartok that I've heard, for sure, but a deep pocket is not really the point, which is fine. And we're talking about working with a limited set of textures, also fine, but there's a whole world of other possibilities out there.

And I'm sure people can point to orchestral music that's been influenced by various folk music from around the world, but I would rather just listen to that music for the most part?

I really didn't think my opinions would be that controversial here, but I'm not trying to take away from anyone else's enjoyment, enjoy your orchestras!

xp

I mean, your first post was pretty damn bitter and aggressive. I initially parsed it as satire.

Pekka Kuusisto said “500” to me and I just went with it. Or maybe he said 50. It was a long convo about how great the orchestra scene was over there.

“Gelatinous” is actually a super accurate word to describe an orchestra imo! And I love the sound of it and hate the sound of drum kits in the hands and feet of 99% of drummers

Interestingly Soviet communism was pretty decent to orchestral music, opera, and especially ballet - but it wasn't so good at promoting/supporting rock, punk, or new wave acts. I can't speak to Soviet communism's record as regards jazz, dub, house, EDM, ska, or rockabilly. Nor can I speak to Vietnamese or Chinese Communists' approach to supporting avant-garde bluegrass.

Shostakovich might have had something to say about the decency of Soviet communism with regards to classical composers.

Comparatively!

You've heard of Shostakovich, Baryshnikov, Pavlova.

But there was no mid-60s Russian invasion of adorable guitar-playing lads from Leningrad. There was no Moscow branch of CBGBs. Bowie didn't record an album in Vladivostok.

The Soviet music landscape was so eager for rock that it embraced Billy fucking Joel as if he were a glass of water in the desert. That should tell you something.

No, I don't disagree; it was "pretty decent" that I was questioning. If you don't know it, btw, Sabrina Ramet's Rocking the State is a p decent introduction to the history of rock music politics in the East Bloc.

(Plastic People of the Universe and Breakout obv classic.)

i think the government should fund more trolls to antagonize message board posters, the jazz fans ant the idm fans and the taylor swift fans, it's unfair that only the gullible classical fans get a shot

Russia already on it.

I think they have too much money given their role in society, and ideally that money would be better distributed, maybe in the form of grants to organizations & individuals that are building more accessible arts-related things in the community

― change display name (Jordan), Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:02 PM (yesterday)

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools, commissioning new works by artists from marginalized groups, presenting existing works by under-recognized artists from marginalized groups, etc. They have a fear of mortality. They need to reproduce the means of production -- in general, their supporters and patrons are getting old and dying off and they are trying to recruit younger generations of audience members and benefactors. This is why you have things like the San Francisco Symphony collaboration with Metallica, and the significant amounts of high art funding bestowed upon DJ Spooky.

Basically, when you're talking about funding for symphonies, you have several sources of income:
1. program income: earned income from ticket buyers, subscribers, recording contracts, etc. which doesn't cover anywhere near the total operating expenses

2. unrelated earned income: this is stuff like investment income from their endowments (they generally have these), or things like, concession stands, cafes and bars, and like, rentals of their facilities for corporate parties and income from a parking garage -- when business people end up running arts orgs or sitting on boards, they tend to promote these types of activities, because they understand parking garages and rentals.

then you get into the donations and contributed income which come from different sources like:

3. government grants -- the symphonies end up getting larger government grants than smaller organizations because they have larger budgets and the government tends to be a bit conservative in terms of "responsibility" and often will only give grants up to a certain % of budget size.

4. grants from charitable foundations & trusts -- this is where you see the most "innovation" in philanthropic trends -- government grant criteria and processes tend to stay the same for very long periods of time. Priority shifts, that then cause the chain reaction of arts organizations shifting their programming and structure, tend to come from the private sector philanthropists

5. individual giving -- self-explanatory

Sund4r, we cool; just sayin that if the folx upthread are suggesting that communism would result in better conditions for music and musicians, the burden of proof is on them.

Also

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools

My own personal mother (a ballet teacher, violinist, and concertmaster) currently does all these things and more with a chamber orchestra in St. Louis.

Sarahell otm

My friend did the SFO/Metallica concert! I think that kind of collaboration is appropriate in many cities with a certain concert-going demographic. In general my shorthand for soliciting collaborators with symphonies in my own limited curatorial goes like this, when talking with the board entity: “lots of people read Wire magazine and/or Wire magazine covers artists that lots of people will leave their house to see perform with a symphony”— facile, but makes the point

*curatorial capacity

I didn't want to put everything in one voluminous post -- there's more (re: more "equitable" distribution of money)

So, outside of individual giving, which is pretty much up to the person giving the money what conditions they put on the donation, how much they give, etc. and there isn't really any mechanism in place to force them to change their giving habits, though I guess you could go to Jeff Bezos' mansion, put a gun to his head, and make him transfer a million dollars to the bank account of a radical jazz ensemble --

So this re-distribution would be coming from government and private institutions (this includes corporate giving -- they generally have a department or separate entity that handles this).

And of course they have rules and procedures -- that tend to benefit large institutions like the symphony. In order to be equitable, government grants have applications and criteria and points assigned to those criteria and whether you receive funding depends on your score. They also have staff that manage the grant programs including the application and selection processes. If you have a paid staff person whose full-time job is applying for grants, (e.g. a major symphony will have at least one) you are likely to be many steps ahead of organizations where this is being done by a volunteer or a person who is paid to write grants, but also does your website, PR, orders office supplies, and spends an hour on the phone with tech support because the photocopier keeps getting paper jams.

Private funders can be looser about criteria and points, but a lot of the ones that are more relaxed about procedure, that funding is often relationship-based. So, you are dealing with, scheduling meetings with these people, attending their events, basically it requires a time factor that someone who isn't paid to spend that time ... they are at a disadvantage. Not to mention class issues, and the standard white cis-male supremacy stuff.

In terms of giving money to individuals -- this is one of those things that doesn't happen, often because of the requirements of the tax code, and it is legally easier to give to an organization rather than an individual.

And I love the sound of it and hate the sound of drum kits in the hands and feet of 99% of drummers

Same, most configurations of, and approaches to, the modern drumkit are really boring! That's why I love electronic music (limitless sounds), as well as the adaptation of the European snare drum & bass drum (by black musicians) in New Orleans second line music, which both pre-dates the drumkit and is way more interesting to me.

That's why I love electronic music (limitless sounds)

Too bad 99.99% of electronic musicians choose one of about three sounds from that "limitless" palette...

great insight, great thread

^^^^^^ 1000%

FPing a lot of cunts here

you'll pry my Roland handclaps from my cold, dead fingers

sarahell this is all so illuminating, thank you!

The Soviet music landscape was so eager for rock that it embraced Billy fucking Joel as if he were a glass of water in the desert. That should tell you something.

― And the wind... cries... Larry (Ye Mad Puffin)

yep, america would never fall for a snake oil salesman like billy joel

sorry, i failed the "no-snark challenge", anyway sarahell thank you for making those informative posts, it's always nice to see someone who knows what they're talking about in a thread like this

Air-guitars are bad, but air-maestros are even worse.

Well it's been years since I've said something controversial enough on the internet to get piled on like that, who would have thought it would be about orchestras!

Air-guitars are bad, but air-maestros are even worse.

Ha, I sometimes air-conduct without realizing it. It's sort of like head-nodding, mostly just feeling the beat.

Air-guitars are bad, but air-mattresses are even worse.

Yeah, mine seems to have developed a leak. I blame the cat.

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

― Οὖτις, Friday, September 6, 2019 10:56 PM

LOLLL

Some of these things, like that, are bad tbf and they should feel bad

Rereading that post made me start a response thread:

The best thing about orchestras

that is bad, but not quite as bad as a white methodist church choir doing "down by the riverside" #scarredforlife

xpost

their association w/ the ruling class

xp: Lord, save us from suburban white people Catching The Spirit(TM)

if only they had!!

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

― Οὖτις, Friday, September 6, 2019 10:56 PM

Yeah this might in fact be the worst thing. When I was 10, and the obvious classical music idiot in my class, we had a field trip to see the orchestra and I sighed in smug enjoyment for the bulk of the concert. They finished with “something special” *wink wink* and it was either the theme to “Superman” or “Star Wars”, with a light show. My classmates (we were 10!) were so keenly aware of how corny and pandering the whole finale was and were elbowing me and grinning like “haha this is so stupid”— orchestras shouldn’t pander! It’s so ugly.

I am beyond baffled at this idea that orchestra shows are outrageously expensive. Granted, Cleveland is not a high-cost-of-living city, but its orchestra is unquestionably one of the best in the country. I'm looking at Yuja Wang's upcoming Rachmaninoff concert at the end of November, and tickets are available for as little as $21 in the balcony. I pay at least that, and often more, to see bands at larger venues in town like the Masonic Auditorium or Beachland Ballroom. (Courtney Bartnett tickets that went on sale Friday were $35.)

Not only that, but at the great majority of Cleveland Orchestra shows, under-18s get in free; and full-time high school, college, graduate and postgrad students can get tickets to nearly every show for $15; as a result, they have the largest percentage of under-25 audience of any orchestra in America.

I don't understand the frowning on applause between movements. In practice, it just means having to hear a wave of coughing instead.

Yeah, I'm p sure that the most expensive events at the National Arts Centre are the pop concerts ($145 CAD balcony seats for Sarah McLachlan vs $31 balcony seats for orchestra concerts, even e.g. featuring Joshua Bell in February). xp

Tbh, I usually do hear movements as distinct statements in themselves so I agree that it shouldn't be wrong to applaud for them.

I found the silence between movements very strange at a performance of Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony I saw. It's like these vast, vast crescendos, then...*cough cough* *rustle* *murmur* until the orchestra starts up again. I didn't want to be the only one leaping to my feet and wildly applauding though so I put up with it.

A good friend works in arts admin at the Lyr1c Opera in Chicago, looks like tickets start at $70 there. In Madison here, looks like it's similar for the good seats, but there are cheaper balcony options, yeah. I'm more shocked at the cost of big pop music concerts though.

(btw I've heard lots of stories of ridiculous diva-ish behavior via this friend, and that's def influenced my opinions, although I'm sure it's an unfair sample)

Worst thing about classical concerts imo is the weird issue a bunch of people seem to have with people coughing in the audience. There seems to be some perception, the basis of which I don't know, that people who cough are doing so to call attention to themselves and not because they need to cough.

Yeah, I'm p sure that the most expensive events at the National Arts Centre are the pop concerts ($145 CAD balcony seats for Sarah McLachlan vs $31 balcony seats for orchestra concerts, even e.g. featuring Joshua Bell in February). xp

(And, yeah, $15 day-of tickets for anyone aged 13-29; free tickets for the companion of someone in a wheelchair. In some ways, these are the most accessible events for a number of groups.)

Second-worst thing is the conservatism of p much every orchestra's repertoire, given everything that has been written for the medium.

On the other hand I can't think of any other setting in which coughing is so distracting. It's prob just the acoustics of the typical room, so normal coughing is more noticeable and we perceive it to happen more in that setting. But either way distracting loud coughing is forever associated with orchestras in my mind.

xxp

Orchestra halls sound terrible for jazz

The worst diva behavior I ever witnessed associated with an orchestra-driven performance came from Shawn Colvin

All of the singers from the Met we performed with were over-the-top gracious, relatable, wonderful people, to the point where several of them friended a bunch of us on Facebook and kept in regular touch, making a point to go out and visit with various choristers whenever they were in town on a gig with the BSO or someone else

In summation, singer-songwriters are the worst, opera singers are awesome

It's noticeable but I just accept it as part of the experience. Especially given the average age of most orchestra/classical audiences, and the fact that these concerts are among the most accessible events for the physically disabled, I don't see anything exceptional about it. People on classical music groups get so huffy about this. An otherwise magical concert pianist made a point of emphasizing how disrespectful she found audience coughing when I saw her, which was just wtf. xp re coughing

Yeah the sound of coughing is totally annoying but cynical theories about why it is happening are silly and dumb.

Second-worst thing is the conservatism of p much every orchestra's repertoire, given everything that has been written for the medium.

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, September 9, 2019 11:48 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This x1000. If my local orchestra (which is admirably accessible with $20 balcony tix) did some Webern, Schoenberg, or (especially) Penderecki, I'd be overjoyed.

Worst thing: how soloists seem to be expected to visibly and theatrically emote far more than section players.

the hall is all hushed and everything but isn't the agita re coughing partly because of the belief that this is a space where people can be prodded into leaving for the sake of others? so always in the back of someone's mind when they hear a cougher, they can be thinking, DECORUM REQUIRES YOU TO LEAVE, SIR

Exiting from the middle of a row during a concert clearly less disruptive to fellow audience members than coughing

Clapping between movements should be universally encouraged. It seems strange to read about certain movements, at their premiere, in history, making such a huge impression on the audience, that the audience demanded an immediate encore performance. How did this happen? I just don't get it. I think it's a modern affectation and one designed to... man, I wish there was a verb that worked here. The same thing that the Catholic church does. Imbues the doctrine with something confusing and demanding in order to keep the congregation off balance, to suggest that there are people in the room more enlightened and decorous than the proles. It feels like that.

It may amuse the court to note that, via mutual friends, I ended up hanging out all day at a spa with an opera singer who has won a couple Grammys.

(she was incredibly nice and chill, and I was very polite, we had a good time comparing notes about playing & preparing for gigs without actually talking about music)

ooh who was it

Rhymes with Masha Mooke