2021 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominees POLL

That's quite a stacked field for Foo Fighters, Iron Maiden, New York Dolls, Rage Against the Machine and, oh why not, Todd Rundgren to run roughshod over.

no idea what 'rnr' means for the RNRHOF anymore, but simply going on age, todd, dionne, and carole king should def be in there.

I'm shocked Carole King isn't in already

Iron Maiden might get in just because they like to have "stand ins" for genres they aren't much interested in, Maiden could stand in for all the metal bands that existed between Black Sabbath and Metallica

really really shocked Tina Turner isn't in, weird

Blue Oyster Cult is never getting in

With or without Rufus, this is now Chaka Khan's 7th nomination. (Chic has had 11 fruitless tries, and haven't been nominated since 2017.)

just fill the ballot with Dionne Warwick and Chaka.

Ideal ballot:

Kate Bush
Devo
Chaka Khan
Carole King
Fela Kuti
Tina Turner
Dionne Warwick

Yesterday was Carole King's birthday! She's definitely in as a writer. Surprised Tina and Dionne and Chaka are not in yet. The others, I guess maybe less shocked, though of course most are more than "worthy."

She's definitely in as a writer.

ah okay that makes sense, they usually do a good job of honoring all the old school songwriter types

I wouldn't have a problem with any of these getting in. Except Foo Fighters, but it's inevitable might as well get it over with. Maybe except Todd Rundgren who I have a semi irrational dislike of.

Surprised about Carole King, too. I usually look at this subjectively and objectively, but I'd be fine with any or all of these: Jay Z, Carole King, LL Cool J, New York Dolls, Todd Rundgren, Tina Turner, Dionne Warwick. (If Turner is already in with her abusive husband, I'm not sure she needs to go in on her own--although, in that special circumstance, it's the preferable of the two.) I don't know Fela Kuti's music at all.

It's great!

Agreed. Still, that this is Fela's first nod feels like a big admission of "oops."

voted for jay

If Carole King's already in as a writer, there's no reason to vote her in as a performer except that everybody now living's mom owned a copy of Tapestry.

I'll vote for Devo, Iron Maiden (best live act in metal), Fela, LL Cool J, and Tina Turner. Fuck the New York Dolls and Todd Rundgren forever.

everybody now living's gay uncle, too

My mom never actually owned a copy of Tapestry, but when I was a little kid she used to listen to a radio station with a morning DJ named "the Mellow Mother," so I'm pretty sure I've heard the whole album.

i think i've posted enough bullshit on ilm that i deserve to vote in this

Are we voting for who we like best, who is most likely to get in, or who we feel is most deserving of admission?

Would say 1 > 3 > 2 out of those options

The Foo Fighters are almost certain to get in but I'm sure not voting for them.

burn this shit down. abominable institution

(Chic has had 11 fruitless tries, and haven't been nominated since 2017.)

Whoa, I could have sworn they got in at some point in the last few years but I guess not.

Most deserving, I'd say Carole King, but as a writer/performer, not just as a performer. (They should have just put her in for both the first time.)

For whose music means the most to me, it'd be Dionne Warwick, the New York Dolls, and Todd Rundgren, with the last two concentrated in a very tiny window of two or three years.

Foo Fighters are the Jack Morris of this HoF if they get in

you can search inductees here for reference

https://www.rockhall.com/inductees/a-z

In the end, it had to be Iron Maiden.

at least half of these are great but are we voting for the best or the most appropriate inductee (which may be the same or not but I have no idea how to judge- wtf does rock and roll mean?)

my fake ballot (idk what the limit is)
Jay
Fela
Rage
Devo
Dolls
Bush

iron maiden, judas priest, thin lizzy, etc. should have been inducted years ago

The limit is five (I was a voter the last few years; I expect to get a ballot this year).

the funny thing to me is non-metal people probably view Iron Maiden as derisively as Night Ranger. I used to tell people I was going to see Iron Maiden and they'd either make Bill and Ted joekz or go "omg Iron Maiden, they're still around? I remember them", like it was me going to Pete's Tractor Pull with 5 other fans to see "The Iron Maiden experience featuring Bruce D".

I don't think a lot of layfolk realize the vitality they still have in 2021 (which is awesome and amazing). i was kind of amazed a few years ago when I saw them at Amalie Arena and the 20,000+ seat arena was pretty much FULL. even Priest can't do those numbers these days (they do festivals and House of Blues-sized venues), and Slayer had a lot of empties when I saw them at their last tour (which was an arena tour).

xpost when u wrote Bush I thought you meant Gavin Rossdale jfc

Jack Morris is a good analogy (the Foo Fighters: winningest band of the '90s), except they don't even have a Game 7 on their resume. Harold Baines, maybe, except I like Harold Baines. I don't know if there's such a blatant long-term mediocrity that works as an analogy.

(xxpost my previous post was US centric so keep that in mind, but the RR HOF is US centric so *shrug*)

Todd Rundgren should be in as a producer alone, if he isn't already, both for his solo stuff but also for a ton of hit or influential stuff: Badfinger ("Baby Blue"!), the Band, New York Dolls, Meat Loaf, Psychedelic Furs, XTC, Patti Smith ("Dancing Barefoot"!), etc.

This piece by SF writer John Scalzi about seeing Iron Maiden live in 2019 captures their appeal better than anything I've ever read. Metal journalists are too close to the screen to see clearly, and as Neanderthal says, non-metal writers don't give a fuck. But Maiden are incredible live. Too bad there are no concerts anymore...

foo fighters won't win this poll but if they get in i won't be surprised. if they get in and turner and/or warwick don't I'll be violently angry

xpost when u wrote Bush I thought you meant Gavin Rossdale jfc

― he said that you son of a bitch (Neanderthal), Wednesday, February 10, 2021 9:57 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i walk from my machine
to make a deal with god

No one else voting for Fela?

Jack Morris is a good analogy (the Foo Fighters: winningest band of the '90s), except they don't even have a Game 7 on their resume. Harold Baines, maybe, except I like Harold Baines. I don't know if there's such a blatant long-term mediocrity that works as an analogy.

― clemenza, Wednesday, February 10, 2021 9:57 AM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

more like yadier molina, in that their stats don't measure up but they've been around for ever and have position-specific intangibles (for yadi, pitch framing and catcher defense, for foo fighters, dave grohl being both guy that everyone loves and a walking symbol for "rock lives on after kurt cobain")

No one else voting for Fela?

I will. I saw him live in '89; it was amazing. I'm pretty sure he played no more than four songs in two hours, and between the band and the female dancers, it seemed like there were 50 people onstage.

I would but Chaka forever.

tapestry was released 50 years ago today, so points for symmetry

i'm not gonna hate on any of these acts, but new york dolls/go-go's/ratm didn't really put out that much music. and as jaymc pointed out elsewhere, where are pj harvey/björk/tori?

Surprised the New York Dolls aren't in...well, not that surprised, since the MC5 also aren't in. But the Dolls and Fela easily, along with Chaka, Tina Turner, Carole King, and Dionne Warwick.

They should have just started with everybody in, and then every year they vote someone out.

I like that! This year's ballot: Bo Donaldson & the Heywoods, Matt Bianco, Rupert Holmes, Doctor & the Medics, the Foo Fighters.

Ratt gets snubbed again

The day Björk gets nominated for the R&R Hall of Fame, I'll start listening to Iron Maiden.

In 2018, Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden criticized the Hall of Fame by calling it "an utter and complete load of bollocks ... run by a bunch of sanctimonious bloody Americans who wouldn’t know rock 'n' roll if it hit them in the face."[69] Dickinson has also expressed an overall distaste for the Hall of Fame entity, arguing that "if you put [music] in a museum, then it's dead."

Wonder how he feels now.

Putting on Number of the Beast. What a dazzlingly tight band.

I also am incredulous that Tori Amos wasn't admitted to the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame in her first five years of eligibility btw.

But Maiden are incredible live.

no kidding. an Iron Maiden concert feels like a HOLIDAY to me when I have tickets. I usually take the next day off (well that's due to getting drunk but).

the only one I didn't enjoy was the first one, because I road a Greyhound to get there, didn't sleep the night before, was sunburnt and heat-exhausted and about to pass out before it started.

The Flight 666 documentary was eye-opening, especially for the amazing crowds they get in South and Central America.

Go-Gos shouldn't be in if the Bangles ain't in

I voted based on which one I would keep if I could only keep one in my collection: Fela.

"Hallowed Be Thy Name" is so beautiful and flows so well.

Kathy Valentine says she's gonna give a vote to Devo

Otoh:

Retweeting in honor of Fela Kuti’s inclusion in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame nominees. https://t.co/h5eDq2v28x

— Ted Gioia (@tedgioia) February 10, 2021

I voted based on which one I would keep if I could only keep one in my collection: Fela.

tbf if I was voting and using this reasoning, I would land on Fela, too. Wouldn't think twice.

Conceding the American bias of this thing, I'd personally put Bananarama on a plane with the Go-Gos and the Bangles. I like Bananarama better than the other two, but I'm not sure any of really warrant induction.

Go-Go's: First All-Female Rock band to Hit #1; wrote and played all their own material; quality catalogue.

xpost

A vocal trio assembled by their producer (a perfectly viable artistic method, ftr) vs. two self-assembled bands. Show your work.

I don't really give points for that stuff, to be honest. Tom Parker project Elvis Presley didn't write his own material, did he? Bananarama fits very neatly into the history of girl groups.

The comparison surprised me too. Also, the Bangles rocked. xp

I just like Bananarama's best songs better, that's all. "Cruel Summer," "Rough Justice," "Robert De Niro's Waiting," and (especially) "What a Shambles," I love them all.

i know this convo has been had a million times so i'll hide this. you know what it's going to be

why can't they just rename the rock and roll hall of fame to the music hall of fame

Just realized two Germs are nominated: Belinda Carlisle & Pat Smear.

I'd just as soon compare the Bangles to REM or the Dream Syndicate.xps

Jack Morris is a good analogy (the Foo Fighters: winningest band of the '90s), except they don't even have a Game 7 on their resume. Harold Baines, maybe, except I like Harold Baines. I don't know if there's such a blatant long-term mediocrity that works as an analogy.

― clemenza,

this is not a good example, but for baseball/music HOF comparisons, i'm going with danny ainge for foo fighters: famous for multiple career paths, but obviously way better at one than the other

ok, that's a stretch. what i'm saying is, danny ainge was good at baseball, but especially good at basketball. grohl is a very nice man who plays guitar, but he was a very good drummer

Just one more Bananarama post, that's it (they weren't on my mind when I woke up today)...A vocal trio assembled by their producer--is that true? I looked up their Wikipedia entry, and if that's accurate, their story seems pretty comparable to the Go-Go's; fans and friends who decided to start a band.

Bananarama formed in September 1979 when teenagers and childhood friends Sara Dallin and Keren Woodward moved from Bristol and met Siobhan Fahey. Dallin and Fahey were studying journalism at the London College of Fashion (University of Arts) and Woodward was working at the BBC in Portland Place. Dallin and Woodward were living at the YWCA and were about to be made homeless until Paul Cook, with whom they had become fast friends after meeting at a club, offered them a place to live above the former Sex Pistols rehearsal room in Denmark Street, Charing Cross.

Tapestry's the only album my mom owned on LP, 8-track, tape, and CD.

Gotta be honest, Foo Fighters might be the only band on the list actually excited about being nominated.

Can’t believe they’re eligible already (time passing, how does it work?)

am reading steven hayden's classic rock book "twilight of the gods" and he makes a good point that dave grohl, due to continued commercial success, general amiability and willingness to do things, and connection to maybe the last iconic rock star, has come to be a stand-in for the concept "rock music" when they are doing big celebrity things w/other pop and hip hop stars

Very much so. (Did he inherit that from Tom Petty?)

Is that Hyden book any good? He's never struck me as a particularly insightful thinker, so I'm wary.

voted devo

xpost
well...i got it on sale for $2 on Kindle

if you are inclined to not like him, i would say it's not going to change your mind

he's got that glib kinda chuck klosterman tone and isn't as you say a deep thinker or anything

for me, like klosterman, he grew up in a specific upper midwest milieu that is very similar to my own upbringing and how i got into music so certain things resonate w/me that probably wouldn't others

parts are good, esp defining "classic rock" (the concept) vers. classic rock bands (say, velvet underground etc) and how bands like reo speedwagon are more important to classic rock than the beatles etc

it's breezy for sure, i'm having trouble with more serious reading lately

dave grohl, due to continued commercial success, general amiability and willingness to do things, and connection to maybe the last iconic rock star, has come to be a stand-in for the concept "rock music"

I thought this was just sort of a universally acknowledged fact!

its hard for me to look at that list and not see it as "fela + a bunch of other acts". the body of work is so towering, it looks wildly out of place to see him on a list alongside the ny dolls and todd rundgren

Depending how you feel about punk, the New York Dolls are pretty towering.

xpost
he's got that glib kinda chuck klosterman tone and isn't as you say a deep thinker or anything

for me, like klosterman, he grew up in a specific upper midwest milieu that is very similar to my own upbringing and how i got into music so certain things resonate w/me that probably wouldn't others

parts are good, esp defining "classic rock" (the concept) vers. classic rock bands (say, velvet underground etc) and how bands like reo speedwagon are more important to classic rock than the beatles etc

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, February 10, 2021 12:35 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://media.tenor.com/images/7e326950fbca615db95b721f83d523c3/tenor.gif

Depending how you feel about "add 9" chords, Todd Rundgren is pretty towering. I'll vote for him as personal favourite without really having a stake in whether he gets in or not.

Devo.

Depending how you feel about punk, the New York Dolls are pretty towering.

― clemenza, Wednesday, February 10, 2021 12:44 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Sure, they definitely were in their way, but...well, put it this way: over a million people attended Fela's funeral. I doubt the Dolls have sold one million records (or played to a total of one million people). And that's not even getting into Fela's absolutely massive worldwide influence across wide swaths of musicians and composers, and the entire generations of musicians and activists that cite him as a key influence and inspiration.

You could use that as an argument that the Dolls, not Fela, need the attention.

parts are good, esp defining "classic rock" (the concept) vers. classic rock bands (say, velvet underground etc) and how bands like reo speedwagon are more important to classic rock than the beatles etc

Yeah, see, I would absolutely read a serious, well-argued book on these subjects, but I doubt Hyden is capable of writing one.

rock n' roll wouldn't make it into the fela kuti hall of fame

You could use that as an argument that the Dolls, not Fela, need the attention.

Tbf, it's a hall of fame. Rundgren towers for me as well, though.

I didn't mean that as a comparison of the relative toweringness (?) of the New York Dolls and Fela Kuti--as I posted earlier, I just don't know Fela Kuti's music. (This thread did inspire me to get a compilation.) Just that I don't think you can brush aside the Dolls. In the space of two albums, they did alter the course of history--not alone, but they're right alongside the Stooges and the Velvet Underground in shaping punk.

Is he the first African nominated?

Ben Sisario pointed out that Trevor Rabin of Yes was the first (and remains the only) African person in the R&RHOF, which is kind of like how Charlize Theron was the only African actor to win an Oscar before Lupita Nyong'o came along'o.

I thought there may be a case like that, but Rabin wouldn't even make my Yes Hall of Fame.

Anyway, this is beside the point, because we all know Buster Poindexter and Utopia are going to make it into the Hall eventually.

Dee hall on fiyah

dammit if sylvain didn't have to go and die to give them the momentum to get in, but this had so better be the dolls.

One of the reasonable things this institution has done over the last three years is allow individual singles into the hall. This makes sense to valourize certain songs without needing to pretend that the Kingsmen or Sam the Sham are Demigods of Rock. Nominally, these songs should not be recorded by artists already in the Hall, but they broke that rule with the Isley Bros. Here are the inducted singles:

Jackie Brenston and his Delta Cats - "Rocket 88"
Link Wray & His Ray Men - "Rumble"
Chubby Checker - "The Twist"
The Kingsmen - "Louie Louie"
Procol Harum - "A Whiter Shade of Pale"
Steppenwolf - "Born to Be Wild"

The Chantels - "Maybe"
The Champs - "Tequila"
Barrett Strong - "Money (That's What I Want)"
The Shangri-Las - "Leader of the Pack"
The Shadows of Knight - "Gloria"
The Isley Brothers - "Twist and Shout"

The Troggs - "Wild Thing"
Jr. Walker & the All Stars - "Shotgun"
Sam the Sham & the Pharaohs - "Wooly Bully"
Irma Thomas - "Time Is On My Side"
The Box Tops - "The Letter"

that's a great list

I'm a little tired of two of those ("Born to Be Wild" and, sorry, "The Letter"), but that's a fantastic group of songs.

the isleys aren't in the rock hall as artists????

They would be, though, if I'm reading halfway's introduction correctly.

ah word, i skipped right to the list.

The Shangri-Las ought to be in there, and so, historically, as the blueprint for every girl group that followed, should the Chantels.

i don't think DEVO will actually ever make it in but i thought the same thing regarding The Cure and Depeche Mode, so who knows. DEVO doesn't quite reach those bands heights. my vote nonetheless.

The Isley Brothers ARE in the HOF. They really have a problem of honoring the same people over and over again rather than those who've been overlooked. (For example, they had internal concerns on the lack of women inductees, so one of the first things they do is induct Stevie Nicks AGAIN. Meanwhile the Shangri-Las, X-Ray Spex, Lucinda Williams, Chaka Khan/Rufus and many others are still shut out.)

there should be no 'inductees' at all -- just make it a museum of the music -- but at least this way there's a furor/attention every year

Would you want the Baseball HOF to be just a museum of great games, though?

Never mind--I know you would!

^_^

"Leader of the Pack" is such a newbie/default Shangri-Las pick (but I guess it fits with the others on that list).

my imaginary five-act ballot:

Kate Bush
Devo
Iron Maiden
Fela Kuti
LL Cool J

"Leader of the Pack" is far from my favourite Shangri-Las song--there are at least four or five I like better--but I think it makes sense for the HOF.

I was thinking about my own most-egregious-omission, and I think I'd actually go with the Pet Shop Boys. I don't how much influence/historical importance you can attach to them--a lot, very little, I honestly don't know--but I think they've got everything else covered: career value, peak value, critical acclaim, sales, chart success, etc. Whenever they became eligible (2010?), I bet they weren't even nominated.

Can envision a compelling case for almost anyone on the list but to me Fela, Jigga, and Kate Bush are a cut above.

Wait until Morrissey snuffs it and then induct the Dolls a year later

Wait until Morrissey snuffs it and then induct the Dolls and the Smiths a year later

Fixed

I’m not anti-RRHOF, but Todd kind of makes a good point...

Rundgren called the Rock Hall "an industry invention" and argued that "true halls of fame are for retirees and dead people, because your legacy has been established." He added, "I'm too busy working to worry about my legacy — and plan to continue working until whenever."

"I'm a big Dionne Warwick fan, but name me one Dionne Warwick rock 'n' roll song," he said. "While I'm aware of Fela Kuti, I can't name a single musician who's ever cited him as a principal influence. Year by year it makes even less sense, so why would I be more excited about it or suddenly change my mind? Why don't they just start inducting blues guys? Why do they have to go to Dionne Warwick or Mary J. Blige?"

Yeah fuck that guy.

i really really really hate rundgren i hate him, hate his smug face, hate his shitty music

My personal feelings about his music aside, that's pretty bad. And laughable: "Why don't they just start inducting blues guys?" B.B. King and Muddy Waters were inducted in the first two years, Jimmy Reed soon after, and there's a whole "early influences" wing on top of that.

While I'm aware of Fela Kuti, I can't name a single musician who's ever cited him as a principal influence

...

i really really really hate rundgren i hate him, hate his smug face, hate his shitty music

^^^

I admit no-one needs Todd to say anything about anything.

It reminds me a bit of Clapton, in the ugly racial underpinnings (not even underpinnings, actually) and the cluelessness about what were supposedly his own influences: in the two or three year window around Something/Anything, when Rundgren made his greatest music, he was routinely thought to be heavily borrowing from Philadelphia soul.

"I'm too busy working to worry about my legacy"

but I thought Todd didn't want to work!?

I think Tom Waits had the best take on the HOF, which he gave right after he found out he was inducted.

“I never really cared about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame…but now I am surprised to discover how much I DO care.”

The HOF is kind of like the Grammys or the Oscars or any other high-profile "prestige" honor, there's a lot to knock about it. But it does mean a LOT to quite a few winners or inductees. In the case of the Oscars et al, it should be easy to understand because it's more or less their peers voting for them, but Greil Marcus got right to the point and I think he's right - if you can see it obviously means that much to someone, who are we or anyone else to shit all over it? I'm looking at a doo wop group or someone old enough to retire who barely got their royalties, in some cases still on the road trying to make a living without any of the glamor, and to them it feels like they've gotten their due. In some cases like Otis Redding, you have their widows still grieving over their deaths, and they're actually moved when they see how much they still mean to people. It ain't the same with someone like Journey and Bon Jovi, but I'm not going to take anything away from someone who gets to go up to the podium.

Johansen interviewed at Billboard:

Congrats on the Rock Hall nomination. When you heard about it, what was your immediate reaction?

"I have mixed feelings about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I don’t know. It's funny because as I was sleeping this morning, I was getting so many texts and messages. People in my coterie seemed excited about it."

Is it at least validating?

"To me the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame appears to be a racket. (laughs) I don't know what to think about it, I guess it'll sink in eventually."

If you get in, would you show up? Perform?

"I'm like, 'Well, what's the deal? We're nominated, but we're not inducted? We're not indictable?' I'm not even gonna think about that. I think about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as some homeless guy who comes in with a raincoat and a bottle of Sneaky Pete in his pocket. These guys have shaken him upside down till all the coins came out of his pocket over the years, and now they're gonna give him an award? 'Why don't you sing that old song you sang?' 'OK, sir.'"

lol <3

i really really really hate rundgren i hate him, hate his smug face, hate his shitty music

ugh there’s an awful ugly lyric in there I didn’t catch there before. sorry, folks, don’t listen to that :-(

upper miss otm I guess :-/ wtf todd

No way, Rundgren is great.

I don't agree that wishing the RRHOF would induct blues artists instead of R&B singers is comparable to Clapton wishing that immigration would stop before England became a black country, although it seems misguided.

It may not be comparable, but as noted above, there are in fact blues artists in the hall. He seems to think of Black artists as a single category. I don’t see him saying “let’s induct more old rock ‘n’ rollers before the Foo Fighters.”

thanks brimstead just another example of our cerebral pop genius at work

yeah, it’s like.. I was listening to “love of the common man” last night and it really is one of my favorite songs of all time... but ugh wtf todd

anyway, voted for the Go-Gos

I don't agree that wishing the RRHOF would induct blues artists instead of R&B singers is comparable to Clapton

I made the comparison in terms of their influences, not seriousness of what they said.

Todd Rundgren produced some records I really like and got Sparks their first recording contract. And...that's kinda all I want or care to think about re him.

I don't see what's wrong with "Love of the Common Man" other than perhaps vague humanism, and incitement to dive off ivory towers?

Oh, I guess you were disappointed with his comments above.

I hate what he said, but as an artist, "Hello It's Me," "I Saw the Light," "We Gotta Get You a Woman," and The Ballad of Todd Rundgren mean as much to me as anything from the era. And, to repeat, I hate what he said.

That's a good point, morrisp.

i was just mentioning "love as a common man" offhand, my disgust was at a certin lyric in "is it my name?", the video of which i had posted earlier in a failed attempt at lord alfred-style "reply to post about artist with lyrics by said artist". havent heard what todd said about the hall. i'll leave now.

i mean, i didn't know about the offending lyrics before posting the youtube. actually leaving thread now.

I thought those offending lyrics were meant as parody of the macho rock scene, as is the whole song, but I'll defer to anyone who doesn't approve.

D'oh! I'm such a blinky, would def have voted Fela if seen the name on there. He's been compared to James Brown and Ellinton and George Clinton, guess the latter could stretch toward the zings of Nigerian authoritah, that got him in so much trouble---so: Lenny Bruce as major band leader-? Later for all Western comparisons, but I found The Best Best of Fela Kuti to be an exemplary gateway, reining in/guiding the epic excursions to fit 2 CDs---still long, cos that's what he did, but the right ones in the right sequence for about 2.6 hrs, over the pulsating mf rainbow (they call it Afropop)
But I blinked to the Dolls, voted their own doll shop plastic meld of oldies from David Jo's collection---"Stranded In The Jungle," which has encourged lively ILM discussions, "Gonna Be A Showdown," and "Pills," speaking of crucial gateways:
While I was laying in a hospital bed
A rock and roll nurse went through my head
She says, hold out your arm, stick out you tongue
I got some pills, boy, I'm going to give you one, Hey Bo Diddley---bleeding all over their originals and it's a group effect, not quite the same even on his best solo albums: so, r&b and Bo and glam and punk and maybe some other stuff; anyway they did it, like nobody else quite did, ever, that I can think of.

Well kind of a VU effect at times, but not that cool with it, more of a caveman glam.

"Caveman" also part of the appeal, as w Sir Lord Baltimore, Blue Cheer, early Sabs, most of the metal I like.

Have Big Star ever been nominated?

Halfway there but for you at 2:10 13 Feb 21

I thought those offending lyrics were meant as parody of the macho rock scene, as is the whole song, but I'll defer to anyone who doesn't approve

ah the Zappa defense

or just edgelords in general

"Is It My Name" is really explicitly a parody, though.

Idk, is the song regarded as offensive among the gay community? I agree with Halfway there that I'll totally defer to members of that community if so.

assuming that "my voice goes so high you would think I was gay/But I play my guitar in such a man-cock way" is what brimstead was referring to?

Sorry sund4r, we're "edgelords" for explaining a dumb joke in a 48 year-old cock-rock parody.

I would say that "You Don't Have to Camp Around" on the same album is a lot more dubious.

Have Big Star ever been nominated?

I just checked - apparently never. They should be in, and they should at least be inducted while Stephens is around.

I thought Rundgren always had a reputation for being an ass - he even admitted his regrets for the way he treated or talked to people in his younger days. But he's produced or engineered a lot of great work, even for artists I don't particularly care for (namely Grand Funk). "Dancing Barefoot," The New York Dolls, Stage Fright, and for my money XTC's greatest album (and I love a lot of their earlier stuff) - that alone is an impressive body of work.

On his own or with Nazz or Utopia, I think he made only one truly great album, Something/Anything?, but it's a double LP where he played nearly all of the instruments. He was so ridiculously prolific that even after you clear out all the dross, there's still a boatload of gems leftover. I'm sure there's a lot of dreck that I've forgotten about, but I don't waste my time with any of it - I just listen to the stuff I like, and his work seems all the more impressive when I just focus on that.

Something/Anything has brilliant highs, but I think The Ballad of Todd Rundgren is better song for song.

Up the Irons.

yeah that was the lyric i was thinking of, sund4r.. there's also "you don't have to camp around" on the same album :-/

Rundgren not being aware of any musician who’s ever cited the influence of Fela Kuti, one of the 3 or 5 most influential musicians of the last 50 years, is honestly 100% believable

Something/Anything has brilliant highs, but I think The Ballad of Todd Rundgren is better song for song.

Yeah, I remember Tal Rosenberg made the case for that one in The Chicago Reader - what he wrote five years ago:

"While his career hasn't been nearly as consistent or as rich as Eno's, Rundgren nonetheless made a significant mark on pop music, particularly with his first few solo albums in the early 1970s. This is especially true of the boundary-dissolving trifecta of futuristic FM radio that are 1971's Runt: The Ballad of Todd Rundgren, 1972's Something/Anything, and 1973's A Wizard, a True Star. All three of these albums are gooey, rainbow-colored mishmashes of mid-to-late-60s Beach Boys, Tin Pan Alley, glam, soft rock, and proto-power pop. On these albums Rundgren plays most of the instruments, and at times mixes sounds and effects at different levels to explicitly showcase the studio at work (check out "Intro/Breathless" on Something/Anything, in which Rundgren points out various studio sounds before launching into a layered, dew-speckled electronic-pop instrumental)."

Those other two are fine albums, and I prefer Runt for its consistency over Wizard, but they never grew on me to the same degree as Something/Anything?. I'll give Runt another try - I do like "Wailing Wall," "Be Nice to Me" and "Parole," they're excellent tracks.

All the 70s Rundgren albums are good imo but tbh Very Best of is what I come back to most.

That two-CD set Rhino put out would be perfect if they had included some Utopia cuts (like Very Best Of). But I don't think you're wrong - outside of Something/Anything?, I think The Very Best of is the most listenable Rundgren album you can get.

Got into some back-and-forth about the Foo Fighters with a friend the other night, and while I still wouldn't put them in myself, I've got to say, I had no idea they were as popular as they are (as measured by chart success).

It's gotta be Fela Kuti.

Clemenza, The Edge 102.1 has probably played them twice so far today.

OK, I just checked - they've played them three times since midnight: https://edge.ca/music/

They're definitely a famous rock band but "Everlong" is their only essential song afaic.

I stopped paying attention to the charts in the late '90s, so I remember them as a niche "modern rock" (a really wonderful term that I hope has long been retired) band and not much beyond that. Starting in 2002, they had an album run that went 3/2/3/1/2/1 on Billboard's main album chart. I missed Foomania.

They're definitely a famous rock band but "Everlong" is their only essential song afaic.

Agreed.

guess the latter could stretch toward the zings of Nigerian authoritah, that got him in so much trouble---so: Lenny Bruce as major band leader-?

Lenny Bruce was arrested and blacklisted; the Nigerian army murdered Fela's mother, burned down his studio, and nearly beat him to death. Not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison.

“big me” is my foo opo, the rest can go in the dumpster

Yes, I did say after that, Later for all Western comparisons, along the lines that some of us used to make a little bit (and the James Brown comparison was fairly prevalent for a while, early on), just jump into the music, and let the associations ride on, til others take their place, as happens in music---not that many bands over here seemed "influenced" per se, but he was and is certainly a source of refreshment and inspiration.

To me, Rundgren is most interesting for his inspiration and influence on other artists. Over on The Band. thread, We've been discussing his experience in producing Stage Fright, and I said:
"Rick and Levon liked him enough to play on one of the songs on Runt, though. Didn't know this! So they were in on TR's window of opp for those, like Chilton, who glimpsed the proto-jangle-power-psych-pop etc. possibilities ( indeed, as I mentioned on the main Big Star thread: "a note to self on Twitter:
In radio interview on @BigStarBand's Live at Lafayette's Music Room, AC worries that forthcoming #1 Record is too much like Rundgren...")...
― dow, Sunday, February 14, 2021 1:29 PM"

More here: The Band.

Also, his "Open My Eyes" still kills, as finale ov The Bangles' fine Sweetheart of the Sun (2011).

I'll have to check out the Foo Fighters' greatest hits set. I wish I liked the music more, but it always seemed lacking - maybe just hearing the singles back-to-back will go over better.

Didn't realize they had a fan vote...Feli Kuti's way ahead, +30,000 votes over Tina Turner in second.

You can vote once a day, so who knows what that means. The Dolls are second last! I'd vote, but it says to login first, and I can't be bothered going through any kind of sign-up.

If the Shoes or Wussy ever get on the ballot, I'm signing up and buying 10 computers.

i'm reasonably sure i've never heard the foo fighters song they used in the announcement video in the original post. strange choice for a dionnne warwick song too.

but also that's a really good ballot as rock and roll hall of fame ballots go, foo fighters notwithstanding.

Didn't realize they had a fan vote...Feli Kuti's way ahead, +30,000 votes over Tina Turner in second.

You can vote once a day, so who knows what that means. The Dolls are second last! I'd vote, but it says to login first, and I can't be bothered going through any kind of sign-up.

Jesus, that's astonishing, but if anyone's that far ahead, I'm glad it's Fela. Last year, when Dave Matthews and Pat Benatar pulled way, way ahead of everyone else except Whitney Houston, I pretty much gave up on signing up for any future polls. Strangely, neither got inducted, so who knows how much weight the poll actually has.

wait are ppl itt actually casting votes on the rock and roll hall of fame

who knows how much weight the poll actually has

the fan vote results count as a single ballot. there are around ballots overall.

oops missed a word! around 1,000 ballots overall.

That part I knew, but I thought the main idea behind the fan poll was to sway other voters as well? At least one HOF voter said he passed on Kiss for years because they sucked, but then seeing the fan support made him think (IIRC) "who am I to judge? Vox populi, they get my vote."

There's an opening here for so many rigged-election/Curt Schilling jokes, I don't know where to start.

I had just sort of assumed that Bon Jovi got in bc of the fan poll but if it's one in 1000 idk.

Well, the new guy replaced Jann Wenner is John Sykes, the president of entertainment enterprises for iHeartMedia (fka Clear Channel), and he made it clear he wanted to push for more populist choices - basically the biggest sellers.

Kot and DeRogatis talked about this when Kot was a regular voting member (and may still be). This was before the Stooges finally got in, and Kot said he always voted for them, but DeRogatis didn't believe his vote would matter based on his experience at Rolling Stone. As DeRogatis would re-enact it, "Hey Jann, looks like the Stooges got a lot of votes." "What? No, no, BILLY JOEL should be in! We're inducting him!"

DeRogatis's former co-host and Chicago Reader critic Bill Wyman actually looked into it and incorporated it into his NYMag/Vulture ranking of all of the Hall of Fame inductees. Ranking something like this is obviously ludicrous, but it gets a LOT of readers, and Wyman actually uses these features as an excuse to do some reporting, weaving what he finds into the entries. So even if you disagree with his tastes, it's worth scrolling through just to see how the HOF works. (For example, I never knew how slimey Ahmet Ertegun's Atlantic Records could be.)

https://www.vulture.com/2018/05/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-artists-ranked-from-best-to-worst.html

*replacing Jann Wenner

*clicks*

3. Bob Dylan (1988)

*regrets*

Queen fans may want to avoid the end, not unless you enjoy rage.

how do you rank the sex pistols over the rolling stones? (i love the sex pistols)

like, body of work has to count for something

How do you rank 27 artists above Stevie Wonder?

haha yeah as i went down the list i was getting more and more pissed

Who knew U2 were from one of the “most fucked-up cities in the Western world?”

Oddly, the hate assessments don't annoyed me - what did were the quick and barely detailed dismissals of great artists he clearly didn't listen to. Not when he admits to it though - particularly doo wop groups which he calls a blind spot.

*don't annoy me

Small irony: last place Bon Jovi are criticized for being overly concerned with their hair, first place Chuck Berry was a professional hairdresser.

Rush are there bc they're a big name that sells tickets but they also lack a single song you could play for someone to convince them of their import.

The idea of a hall of fame is antithetical to rock and roll but ranking every single inductee from best to worst is a worthwhile endeavour.

I tried doing it just in thought, and it feels like it would be fun for about a third of it, when you're revisiting artists you probably enjoy immensely. But then there's a morass of artists that you kind of like - particularly ones who have done as much bad work as good - and then it turns into a masochist endeavor evaluating the ones you hate, at least if you really want to consider who's worst, this shit artist or that one. It's more tempting to do that first third and then add all the artists you think they've missed, particularly the ones that aren't likely to get in.

it has a lot of weird wrong ones that are side by side, like the Yardbirds directly above Lou Reed (who I like the Yardbirds but they are band whose reputation lies largely in what its members did after they quit the band)

jackson 5 over the temptations

janis joplin is ranked above jackie wilson which is just a travesty if you're talking about soul singing

I remember that list when it came out...I thought the rankings (if not the write-ups themselves) were most interesting for me in the middle. Up at the top and towards the bottom, the artists tend to be so hugely important or so marginal, I find the rankings almost interchangeable. It's in the middle third where I thinking too-high and too-low and all of that.

The rankings are kind of loose - he notes that somewhere in the beginning (i.e. is #62 really better than #63 on any given day?)

But yeah, Jackson 5 over the Temptations? I love the Jackson 5, I'd induct them, but they were at least a cut below the Temptations. I love Janis Joplin, but I wouldn't put her over Jackie Wilson either.

bill wyman is literally the worst living music writer afaict

When Joe Posnanski ranked his 100 greatest baseball players last year, it became apparent at a certain point that at least 10 players were ranked where they were because of their uniform number (e.g., Jackie Robinson was #42). If only pop stars wore numbered uniforms.

bill wyman should stick to playing bass for the rolling stones

XP

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/a6/bd/c4/a6bdc4df454c07343acd6ae13bf10b79.jpg

^^Inducted Twice

Once too often

Oddly, the hate assessments don't annoyed me - what did were the quick and barely detailed dismissals of great artists he clearly didn't listen to.

Depeche Mode: A second-tier ‘80s synth band

Stephen Stills--too low!

in fairness, bill wyman is biased because he almost quit the stones to join stephen still's manassas

“Mama Said Knock You Out” is almost his One Great Song. But I don’t believe a word he says in any other track he’s ever recorded. I was surprised to read that he had actually made the short list several times. The guy on the Grammys wearing the funny hat and nattering on about “Grammy moment” this and “Grammy moment” that — that complete industry tool in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

I like LL Cool J, I think Radio and Mama Said Knock You Out should have given him a spot in the HOF by now, but LMAO, that last point is impossible to defend.

LL Cool J has released many great songs

an industry tool making it into the RRHOF, the very idea chills the marrow

I disagreed with several of his blurbs but enjoyed reading them

lol at Joy Division and The Cure being "electronic bands" in his reckoning though

I have hard time imagining Kate Bush in the context of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Rockin up that hill

she made a deal with God (Eric Clapton) to get in

Small irony: last place Bon Jovi are criticized for being overly concerned with their hair, first place Chuck Berry was a professional hairdresser.

medium irony: one of his four sentences on nwa (212th place) is "I know that Dre is one of music’s most important producers; he’s also a guy who beats up women." first place is chuck berry.

VHS: Do you mean as to the nature of her music, rather than its importance? I'm not the biggest Kate Bush fan--I do love a couple of songs--but I don't know that she makes any less sense than Joni Mitchell. They're singer-songwriters who non-fans dismiss as arty or precious or whatever, while fans are passionately devoted.

Peter Gabriel is in so it seems only right.

Not more right than Iron Maiden or anything, I mean.

lol I just remembered the Red Hot Chili Peppers are in the rock and roll hall of fame

Once too often

― birdistheword, Wednesday, February 17, 2021

twice too often

VHS: Do you mean as to the nature of her music, rather than its importance? I'm not the biggest Kate Bush fan--I do love a couple of songs--but I don't know that she makes any less sense than Joni Mitchell. They're singer-songwriters who non-fans dismiss as arty or precious or whatever, while fans are passionately devoted.

― clemenza, Wednesday, February 17, 2021 7:41 PM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I love Kate Bush. My confusion is more aesthetic, would be weird to see her plaque next to RHCP or Iron Maiden.

Do non-fans even know what "arty" means, though, and why precious is an insult?

(Not a slam, I just thought this criticism went out with Dave Marsh thirty years ago when cognoscenti, I guess, knew what they meant).

Subjective call, but I have my own interpretations of those words. And sometimes I hate music that fits them, and sometimes I love music that fits them.

I don't think RHCP and Iron Maiden really typify the RRHOF either, though. They haven't been inducting hard rock and metal bands for very long: Black Sabbath didn't get in until 2006, Deep Purple until 2016.

To me, Kate Bush's music is all about defining its own parameters and creating a world apart. Seeing her perform her three or four greatest hits on the same stage as Foo Fighters doesn't fit that profile.

Not what's happening itt but I assume disparaging uses of 'precious' all hark back to this.

^hard to deny that sounds a bit precious xp

Wyman can be ok, but I've rarely seen anyone more wrong than him about, like, fundamental things. Like when he ranked great rock and roll moments years ago and picked the bass line of "Stayin' Alive."

That bass line would rank higher than many Stones efforts.

Watching old stodgy blues rock musicians attempt to comment on classic hip hop is often like watching someone with a Geo Metro trying to win a drag race

Wait, Bill Wyman the journalist wasn't ever a blues-rock musician, was he?

Ah wrong Wyman. Lol @ me

https://d2qpatdq99d39w.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/18161932/rolling-stone.jpg

I have said this before but every rrhof year appears to be trying to do some mixture of the following things

1. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing genres (rap, metal)

2. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing whole categories of humans (POCs, women)

3. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing influencers (vintage blues and soul and R&B)

4. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing contributors (producers, engineers, session people)

5. Honor acts that were extremely famous and sold lots of records and filled arenas

It's got a long way to go on all those fronts

That said, burn it down

4. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing contributors (producers, engineers, session people)

They’ve been honoring these folks in side categories for a long time (since 1986 for producers/engineers; since 2000 for session musicians).

I've got an explanation on standby too, which I haul out every year when there's puzzlement as to how x or y fits into a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (e.g., Kate Bush)...It's not a Hall of Fame for people who play what's generally thought of as rock and roll; it's for people who are embraced by what's generally thought of as the rock audience (or at least was when the thing started in the mid-'80s; I haven't a clue what that audience is called now, if it's called anything, after splintering into a thousand sub-audiences). Kate Bush belongs, and Donna Summer belongs, and Leonard Cohen belongs, and Iron Maiden belongs, and Jimmy Reed belongs; Mel Torme doesn't. (John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing.)

2. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing whole categories of humans (POCs, women)

I also don’t agree w/ this claim... scroll through the list of inductees, starting at the beginning. Most were not white in the early years.

Aretha on first ballot, no?

The second, actually.

Scrolling through the entire Performers list of inductees, I would guess (very roughly) that only around half are white.

Maybe they should name it 'Popular Music Hall of Fame'.

I have opinions on this thing.

They absolutely should have. But in 1985, in a project started by Rolling Stone, I guess the name made sense. If it were launched today, I can't imagine them calling it that.

I would guess (very roughly) that only around half are white.

as of a year ago:

The percentage of total people of color in the hall has declined every year from an impressive high of 55.8% in 1989 to the current low of 32.7%.

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8543758/rock-roll-hall-fame-gender-racial-diversity-guest-opinion-evelyn-mcdonnell

They absolutely should have. But in 1985, in a project started by Rolling Stone, I guess the name made sense. If it were launched today, I can't imagine them calling it that.

When I started listening to pop music with a bit more investment (i.e. understanding it more, etc.) the idea of "rock 'n' roll" already seemed nebulous. Like every basic history on rock and every critical survey folded in genres like dance, hip-hop, electronic, etc. as if it was a continuation. In retrospect, I'd say rock was more or less defined as post-WWII pop music without it ever being articulated that way. The roots of the music pre-dating the '50s (country, blues, gospel/spirituals, folk) was acknowledged as "roots" without being lumped into rock. And pop music from the 50's on that seemed like a continuation of pre-WWII and WWII-era pop (Al Jolson, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand, etc.) was a completely separate kind of pop (vocal pop? "mainstream" pop?). Again, I don't recall anyone articulating it that way, BUT it was more or less defined that way when you see how the history of rock music was presented. (For example, the '90s BBC/PBS series on the history of rock, which was supervised by critic/musicologist Robert Palmer.)

So that's how the "rock" HOF looked like to me without really thinking about it, and when dance or disco music or the first hip-hop groups got in as performers, it didn't seem musically inappropriate.

xp Thanks for that link. I wonder how recently (and abruptly) the tide may have shifted. Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).

The percentage of total people of color in the hall has declined every year from an impressive high of 55.8% in 1989 to the current low of 32.7%.

It's following the same trajectory as rock 'n' roll, but much more slowly

Also, when I think about jazz's relationship to pop music, it seems to back up that narrative. Jazz was the popular music of the '30s during the swing era, before it was redefined by bebop. After that, there was clear separation as well as the recurring tension of certain types of jazz consciously trying to become "pop" or break into the pop market - it might be Stan Getz starting the bossa nova craze, or it may be Ella Fitzgerald's celebrated songbook series which fit the mold of mainstream vocal pop very well. It wasn't until the late '60s and '70s where you had the term "fusion." Gary Giddins talked about this when he was interviewed for Ken Burns's (seriously flawed) jazz documentary. You could define fusion as jazz and another genre, but go through every decade - there's jazz with Afro-Cuban music, jazz with rhythm & blues, etc, etc....what do you call that? He seemed dismissive of the definition for that reason (and perhaps it was fueled by his own distaste for fusion), but it's always made sense to me. Thinking of his response now, it's still edifying because it does point out how the mixing of some genres is viewed differently than others, and the why fits in with my previous post - what's defined as "fusion" is basically jazz mixing with other music that wasn't defined and hadn't matured until the post-WWII era.

In retrospect, I'd say rock was more or less defined as post-WWII pop music without it ever being articulated that way.

I think it has been articulated that way many times! (post-1955 anyway)

It's following the same trajectory as rock 'n' roll, but much more slowly

That's the impression I got. To be fair, they're not inducting who they should be chronologically - there are a lot of latecomers that should've been in decades ago - but if you look through Robert Christgau's annual Pazz & Jop essays going back to 1974, he does talk about that a lot. He intentionally tracks the development of pop music along racial (and even gender) lines year by year, in terms of who was listening to what and how that music was being recognized, either critically or through sales. With the HOF currently tracking the growth of hip-hop, some of those numbers should be reversing themselves, but if there is actual pushback against hip-hop (maybe not against the biggest names, but enough that important figures like LL Cool J, Boogie Down Productions, Eric B. & Rakim, etc. have been passed over, and hell even OutKast - how are they not nominated yet?) that could explain things.

At some point, people practically started m/l limiting the definition of "rock" to what would have been called "heavy metal" at one time. I don't think Iron Maiden are a more obvious descendent of Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and Frankie Lymon than Tina Turner or Chaka Khan are. xp

I think it has been articulated that way many times! (post-1955 anyway)

If I'm totally wrong, I'm fine with that, but I've never heard it articulated that broadly. Perhaps rightly, it's usually defined by articulating its roots (mostly country and blues). You can extrapolate that definition if you understand the history or timeline of that music, but I've never heard it defined in those broader terms. Again, maybe there's a good reason for that, but you can see how that also leads to questions of "is this rock?" with hip-hop, reggae, etc.

Oh, right, I see what you mean, I was probably speaking too broadly and reacting to narrower definitions. I don't think Kate Bush requires an especially radical stretch in the definition, though.

Just to clarify my own post above, when I reeled off that list--"Kate Bush belongs, etc."--I mixed people who are in the HOF and who aren't; I meant they all belong under the umbrella of whatever the hall defines as rock and roll, not that every person/band I mentioned should be inducted.

(John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing.)

I don’t think there are any country/c&w artists, either. Johnny Cash may the closest? — unless I’m forgetting someone.

Hank Williams and Jimmie Rodgers, the latter as an early influence, the former with apparently no designation.

Thanks – looks like they’re both in as Early Influences. (I was just looking at Performers)

John Coltrane would belong too, but for some reason they drew a line there--not sure if there are jazz musicians in the influences wing

miles davis was inducted, as a performer.

and country music hall of famers bob wills and bill monroe as early influences.

Bootsy on Fela:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/bootsy-collins-interview-fela-kuti-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-1128823/

At some point, people practically started m/l limiting the definition of "rock" to what would have been called "heavy metal" at one time. I don't think Iron Maiden are a more obvious descendent of Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, and Frankie Lymon than Tina Turner or Chaka Khan are.

Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).

the obvious solution is to induct wu-tang (including cappadonna and killah priest!)

miles davis was inducted, as a performer

Miles much more involved in jazz-rock/electric fusion than Coltrane obv. It's not at all obvious to me why Coltrane would belong, although it would be nice to live in a world where the "rock audience" bought more hard bop, modal, and free jazz records.

xpost seigbran otm

motorhead's much closer to the ramones than any metal band

(xpost) For me, in the sense of what I wrote above: that Coltrane fits under that amorphous umbrella of music "embraced by what's generally thought of as the rock audience." Davis is obviously more directly connected to rock and roll, but when a university roommate got me onto Coltrane, it felt like a natural fit.

Coltrane was a big influence on Rock instrumentalists starting in the Psychedelic Era.

I mean, by sheer numbers, he clearly doesn't sell to all of the people who also listen to Journey and Bon Jovi (or the Rolling Stones), though, so how are we defining the rock audience? xp

C. Grisso's point is interesting. Bach also a major influence on a lot of rock artists from "Whiter Shade of Pale" through last year's Deep Purple album. A worthy candidate as well? I'm all for it!

Pachelbel's sequential bass progression has been used in enough rock songs that he probably deserves a nod.

the obvious solution is to induct wu-tang (including cappadonna and killah priest!)

I was thinking this last night! (Also, they legit should be in.)

Has Ravi Shankar ever been nominated?

so how are we defining the rock audience?

I don't have a cut-and-dried answer for that. I'm kind of approaching it subjectively, as a certain kind of listener (a cliché, I know) who came up through the '70s reading Bangs and Marcus and Christgau and others. My sense of what fits under that umbrella is heavily influenced by that era of rock critics, and Coltrane most definitely does. Ravi Shankar, too!

Which is, I should add, not entirely subjective, because I think my sense of that is aligned with the people (Wenner, I know, but it must have been others besides him) who came up with this thing in the first place.

Haha, inducting Queen and Rush was the ultimate travesty by that standard.

To me, one of the things that defines a genre is its borders. There would be something patronizing about Willie Nelson or Coltrane in this hall, like saying "they were so good at [their main genre], they were actually Rock!" I mean, does anyone want giants in their field like George Jones or Duke Ellington in the Rock Hall of Fame? How about Polka king Frankie Yankovic?

Also, what I was getting at with Kate Bush was not that she isn't/doesn't Rock, but that certain artists resist the kind of valourization of being put in any kind of "Hall". Like her music is so introverted or inward-facing that putting it in a glass box next to Def Leppard's torn jeans seems distasteful and disrespectful to me. There's a certain artistic fragility (or maybe, yes, preciousness) that comes out when some artist's music is blown up to be "more than music". Like I adore Talk Talk, but a big statue of Mark Hollis on a hill somewhere would feel highly inappropriate.

How about “Weird Al” Yankovic!

the rock n' roll hall of fame is a fundamentally flawed institution that can not be salvaged and i will never stop paying attention to it and complaining about it

Looks like 2017-2019 saw a lot of member-heavy white groups getting in (Journey, Yes, Pearl Jam, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits, the Cure, Moody Blues, Roxy Music...).

for whatever reason the Hall refused to induct the one black member of The Cure, with a definitiveness that almost made Smith refuse to take part - iirc they only skipped one white member from the 44 years of turnover

that's one of the most annoying parts of it, they get to decide who was "really" a member. like when bob welch got snubbed by fleetwood mac even though he was the leader of the band for almost as many albums as lindsay buckingham

^^That was Fleetwood's decision, because Welch was suing the band for back royalties at the time of induction.

OTOH, bands can lobby for inductees in their orbit. Jerry Garcia made sure Robert Hunter and Mountain Girl got in when The Dead were inducted.

There was another instance of that within the past five years that made news--someone who wanted to be included and wasn't; my memory is that I sided with the person left out--but I'm blanking out on who it was.

Re: country inductees, forgot, Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys are also in as early influences.

agh, nm, already posted

Jefferson Airplane's latter-day drummer Joey Covington complained about being excluded, his main defence being that he wrote and sang "Pretty as You Feel", one of their few charting singles.

Once a nominated band gets in, is the decision of which members to induct made by the RRHOF Board? Or are the members decided in advance, and listed on the ballot?

The one I'm thinking of is much more recent than the Airplane (and I think the person was more prominent than Covington). It's a hard thing to search, because you just get lists of the most egregious HOF snubs.

Was it Chad Channing (Nirvana)?

No...It'll come to me eventually. Let me scan the last few years of inductees, maybe that'll do it.

Iirc Deep Purple were selective, only letting in members from the '70s lineups.

I looked at the list and figured out what I was thinking of: the mini-controversy about whether Bun E. Carlos would get to play with Cheap Trick at the induction. I think it just had to do with the performance itself (and I take it he did indeed get to play with them).

Coltrane was a big influence on Rock instrumentalists starting in the Psychedelic Era.

otm. McGuinn always mentions Coltrane is the model and inspiration for his guitar playing on "Eight Miles High," and his lead guitar is basically the heart and foundation of that entire record. The free jazz element of MC5 and probably the first two Stooges albums were heavily influenced by Coltrane's work as much as Coleman's, if not moreso.

Which reminds me, Ornette Coleman deserves to be inducted as an influence. (Maybe it's time to ditch the adjective "early.") His final public appearance (which wasn't even certain due to his health) came at a tribute show in Prospect Park - it's been released as an album in its own right, and both the line-up and the performances show how much of his influence continued to be felt in the rock underground and avant-garde, even gaining a broader audience in the alternative era.

*Coltrane as the model

Too bad they didn't put Coleman in while he was still alive (died 2015). I don't know if Sonny Rollins is in, but if not, he should be a priority. One thing that's become an issue with the baseball HOF is when they induct someone literally months after they die--happened with Ron Santo, and it may happen soon with Dick Allen. As you wrote above, no matter how much we carp and nitpick about this thing--and no matter how much half the people in there might ridicule it--I think it really does mean a lot to some of the early performers, particularly, as an example, artists like the Shirelles, who got cheated out money, who were ignored for decades as "serious artists," and then at least got this one honor. (And actually I don't know if all the Shirelles were alive when they were inducted, if any.)

Re: the Shirelles, three of the four members were actually there - Addie "Micki" Harris had already passed away but her husband accepted on her behalf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHP-2CSXqPA

A lot of the induction and acceptance speeches are officially online. The famously bad ones may not be, but you can find the good ones, like the Beatles (George is very eloquent in his acceptance) and the Stones (Townshend inducts them and roasts them). Trent Reznor slagged the HOF for a long time, but obviously he changed his mind and you can see how disappointed he is with his Zoom acceptance due to the pandemic - as he mentions, he was hoping to reunite all past and present members on stage and just "have a moment." (Imagine if they all performed together, that would've been something.)

I'm not 100% sure I'd induct Sonny Rollins in the HOF. He's recorded wonderful solos on both record...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZ77IZxTME

and stage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCaD6GAQmjA

But outside of that, I'm not sure he's had a profound influence or a deeper connection with rock - those examples feel more like outliers. Maybe someone can prove me wrong, I'd love to be, but I think any role he has in rock history is more the result of residual influence, which is inevitable of any artist of his stature. He's definitely a serious contender for jazz's greater tenor saxophonist - a highly subjective argument, but objectively speaking he's in a rarefied group.

Sun Ra should be in.

Also Stockhausen

J/k, I'm fine with them limiting it to famous rock artists.

Are they considered an authority? Mostly, is there a jump in sales when an artist is included in the HOF?

It varies, but there can be, yes.

https://www.spin.com/2020/11/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-financial-impact-artists/

Which reminds me, Ornette Coleman deserves to be inducted as an influence. (Maybe it's time to ditch the adjective "early.".

Stones-sequel sure why not but that autocorrected from Stones-esque

Johann Sebastian Bach: early influencer

Ha, I mentioned that above. He has been outright quoted by more than one rock band.

The Seikilos epitaph is the OG rock song imo.

Can't get much more rock than something that is literally carved into stone

lol, indeed. :)

The carpe diem-themed lyrics are also rock 'n' roll af:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBpSxRGudNE

One thing I don't get at all: electing Muddy Waters to the main hall (good) but putting Howlin' Wolf in as an "early influence" instead. They're born within three years of each other; according to Wikipedia, their careers both go back to the '30s; their first albums on Chess came out within a year of each other. I get Robert Johnson as an early influence, but my guess is, besides the close parallel to Waters, Howlin' Wolf has been covered by just as many if not more rock bands.

Friends were making fun of me a while back when they discovered I had my Howlin' Wolf albums filed in the 'W' section. "You realize his surname isn't 'Wolf,' right?"

I also would’ve put them under ‘W’ – it’s his stage name, right? (Do your friends put Muddy Waters under ‘M’? Iggy Pop under ‘I’?)

Do they put him under "H" or "B"? (I think I do put him under "H" but it seems questionable now.)

I think of Pop as made-up surname, but a surname nonetheless; I think Howlin' Wolf is meant more as a two-word phrase? Muddy Waters (who I've also had in the W's for years) seems more like Howlin' Wolf, a phrase. I don't know. Nor am I sure if Mama Cass should go in the 'M' or the 'E' section.

Once I decide, I'm going to start classifying each letter into "rock and roll" and "early influence" sub-sections.

There’s a joke here: “Where do you put Meat Loaf records?” “Oh, that one’s easy—nowhere, I don’t own any.”

Yeah, I think I always just thought of "Meat Loaf" and "Howlin Wolf" as two-word phrases as opposed to first name/surname so classified them by the 1st letter but am not sure that's defensible.

I was curious as whether the NY Times referred to him as Mr. Loaf. They don't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/arts/meatloaf-bat-out-of-hell.html

my rule is if its a legal first & last name, its filed under surname. if theres any nickname or alteration whatsoever, it goes under first letter. anything else gets too confusing for me. screaming jay hawkins under s, muddy waters under m, meat loaf in the trash

I can see it both ways—but the fact that Wolf and Waters could be “normal” last names at least makes an argument for treating them that way, while “Loaf” doesn’t.

What is the distinction there?

Just that "Waters" and "Wolf" exist as Anglo-Saxon last names?

I was kidding about the Times--Meatloaf's just one word, you can't split it up. It'd by like filing Blowfly in the 'F' section.

I'm wrong! It is two words. My joke is salvaged.

I thought he does spell it as 2 capitalized words?xp ah

xxp Anglo-Saxon(?) They’re just not uncommon surnames in the US. No one is named “Loaf.”

Ha: https://www.ancestry.ca/name-origin?surname=loaf&geo_a=r&geo_s=us&geo_t=ca&geo_v=2.0.0&_ga=2.219026577.921939885.1613843597-1391661623.1613843597&o_iid=41015&o_lid=41015&o_sch=Web+Property

To me, it makes more sense to look at the first names. Does Howlin' make sense as a stand-alone name without Wolf? Did people actually address him as Howlin'?

Muddy Waters is also a two-word phrase, of course, but it's easier to imagine Muddy (rhymes with Buddy) as a stand-alone name.

From an interview:

"All of a sudden I became Muddy Waters. You know? Just overnight. People started to speakin', hollerin' across the streets at me. When they used to hardly say good morning, you know. I could walk down the street--'Hey, Muddy! Hey, Muddy! There go Muddy!"

I'm almost positive my entire rationale for any of this traces to the first (red) Rolling Stone Record Guide: they have both Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters filed under 'W' in their blues section. Elsewhere, Captain Beefheart is filed under 'B', the Captain & Tennille under 'C', Meat Loaf and Mama Cass under 'M'. They seem not to have given inconsistencies a great deal of thought.

Captain & Tennille is easy, of course that’s under “C.” I can see why Beefheart would be a toss-up, though I would probably also use “B.”

Howlin' Wolf under 'H', Captain Beefheart under 'C', because they are titles, not names.
Muddy Waters under 'W', Iggy Pop under 'P', because they are names, even though they are pseudonyms.
Cat Stevens under 'S', even though everyone called him Steve in the 70s.

Dr. John under 'D', also a title rather than a name.

Iggy and the Stooges under 'I', Alice Cooper 1969-1974 under 'A', because they are group names.

So you separate Raw Power from the other Stooges records?

Fwiw I always file Bob Dylan under W because his real name is Lucky Wilbury.

Yes, and separate from the Iggy Pop solo records too.

Where do you guys file MC / DJ ______ artists?

The only one I own is DJ Shadow, under 'D', although I can see how someone with a lot would use a different filing system.

Howlin' Wolf was Howlin' Wolf, this is canon

https://i.imgur.com/Yfek1IB.jpeg

TS: Miles vs (Col)trane

where the fuck is count basie

for that matter where the fuck is Count Bass D?

I hate every count I see from Count Base D to Count Base E

Pumpkins, Smashing

Smiling politely, Homer Simpson

I have legit seen Jane Eyre alphabetized under E, y'all.

where the fuck is count basie

I have separate shelves for the nobility, in order of rank. It goes foughly like this:

King Missile
Queen Latifah
Duke Ellington
Count Basie
Earl "Fatha" Hines
Sir Mix-a-lot
Common

Generally these are shelved after Eric Clapton, because royalty is only subject to God.

Foughly should be roughly

Also Bobbie Gentry goes before Common

Haha

Where do John Squire and Jordan Knight fit in?

All of the options are fine except the Foo Fighters. Voted "who cares?"

Filing the Foo Fighters under who-cares makes perfect sense to me.

This thread is the Rock Hall's greatest claim to fame.

If it's your own collection, just file them where you'd immediately think they'll be - you shouldn't have to think it over, it's for your own convenience. I guess I file them 'correctly,' but I was already used to the correct filing from libraries, stores, etc.

the reason I compared Foo Fighters to Jack Morris upthread, flawed as it was, as it seems like they're getting it purely on longevity, for being a 'decent enough' band that managed to last 25+ years.

which is kind of mind blowing to me, as I never expected them to have that kinda career arc when I first listened to them in the 90s. I don't think anybody was convinced they'd really be an ongoing thing until Colour came out and blew up.

fwiw it’s not just that they’ve been around, it’s that they’ve been around and been popular the whole time. foo fighters have 14 mil spotify monthly listeners, which i think is the most of any post-grunge group from their era.

It's not just that they've been around and been popular the whole time, it's that they've embraced this role of torchbearers of the Rock'N'Roll™ brand.

Build it a museum and establish guitar camps to teach it to kids

They defined the sound of modern rock radio, to the degree that you know all their hit songs but have no idea who sings them. Because they're so bland it could be anyone.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Adoration of the Mogwai (Deflatormouse) at 6:26 20 Feb 21

They defined the sound of modern rock radio, to the degree that you know all their hit songs but have no idea who sings them. Because they're so bland it could be anyone.


I actually think Foo Fighters are very identifiable, I instantly know it's them when I hear a new song

Everybody can complain about the Foo Fighters, but it's inevitable - first the grunge bands go in, the britpop bands are next, then the nu-metal bands go in (RATM as the first), and then brace yourself for all the emo bands. Paramore and Coheed & Cambria will be on that stage whether us old farts like it or not.

Ten years ago, I wrote something to the effect that eventually everyone will be inducted except for England Dan & John Ford Coley. Or at least not both of them.

Gary Glitter seems unlikely

“Rock and Roll (Veto)”

I don't know if the Britpop bands get in except maybe Oasis

I don't really think of Fela as rock n roll, but I voted for him anyway

he didn't make rock, but he was still fairly influential in the world of rock music

Recognizing influencers is but one of the things the HoF appears to be trying to do; as I wrote upthread

every rrhof year appears to be trying to do some mixture of the following things

1. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing genres (rap, metal)

2. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing whole categories of humans (POCs, women)

3. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing influencers (vintage blues and soul and R&B)

4. Belatedly make up for its history of snubbing contributors (producers, engineers, session people)

5. Honor acts that were extremely famous and sold lots of records and filled arenas

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I'm still operating on 1987 time or something: Devo getting twice as many votes as the New York Dolls is puzzling (insofar as they're vaguely connected: comparing Kate Bush's vote count to the New York Dolls' would be meaningless).

Devo have at least a handful of hit songs that I would imagine have a healthy afterlife on Spotify. NY Dolls don't really have any hits.

I was thinking more of a board like this, where my guess is most people are familiar with the music of both and historical context. Maybe some people vote more as a prediction, I don't know.

And then again, maybe Devo is just better liked.

I think bands that were more about the historical moment, live show, etc. like the Dolls will always have a harder time translating appeal to new generations. I guess both Devo and the Dolls had interesting sartorial choices.

the band that formed after dodging bullets at the kent state massacre not exactly lacking for 'historical context'?

Devo definitely feels more modern than the Dolls in many ways and their early herky jerky stuff echoes throughout U.S. underground rock to this day

I know of the New York Dolls by reputation, but I couldn't tell you any of their songs.

I really love the Dolls but I remember hearing them at first and being really disappointed, I thought they were supposed to be this wild punk band and it kinda sounded like...Aerosmith if they couldn't play for shit?

their appeal is very subtle, but now i love them

I was really too young to understand the historical context of either of these bands. I do remember Devo's "Whip It" fitting seamlessly into a radio landscape of other catchy New Wave pop-rock like "Centerfold", "Another One Bites the Dust", "Super Freak", "Funkytown", and "Don't Put Another Dime in the Jukebox" in the early '80s though.

the band that formed after dodging bullets at the kent state massacre not exactly lacking for 'historical context'?

I meant musically, of course.

I thought they were supposed to be this wild punk band and it kinda sounded like...Aerosmith if they couldn't play for shit?

Exactly, plus Steven Tyler was a better lyricist.

Maybe there's also the feeling, after both the Sex Pistols and Poison have been throughly digested, that the Dolls' time of influence has come and gone? Whereas Devo still stand as a unique phenomenon?

the Hardcore Devo comps of the early stuff I think changed the band's profile

I also wonder if the Dolls reunion albums and shows, which were at least politely received at the time, took some of the mythical aura away.

I think there's probably some truth to that.

Buster Poindexter didn't help, either.

definitely did not

I'm not a Buster fan, but I think, in a way, the distance of that act from the Dolls underscored the myth - like Johansen had to devise a complete different persona in the 80s because there was no point in trying to redo what the band had done.

His solo work (post-Dolls / pre-Buster) holds a reasonably fond place in my memory. Let's Just Dance etc. Drunk oldies covers.

i strive to forget buster poindexter, but its funny how it seemed like a distancing act at the time (at least to me), but in hindsight it makes sense as a progression of the dolls idea, certain aspects of the dolls taken to the next logical extreme

Taking Sides: Buster Poindexter vs the Swiffer

I kind of like "Everything is Awesome" but at least it doesn't seem to have hurt Devo's image.

I don't understand the animus toward the whole Buster Poindexter thing. The first two albums are perfectly fine, amusing Louis Prima-esque schtick. The songs are decent and reasonably uncommon; he's not singing things you've heard a million times before, and he had a good band full of NYC session pros.

I thought "Hot Hot Hot" was decently catchy and amusing when I heard it. It would be many years later till I found out he had been in some band called the NY Dolls.

it's not animus for Buster Poindexter, but if you're looking for things that made it harder for the NY Dolls to maintain their reputation and importance in subsequent generations of rock nerds, that's part of it

Buster Poindexter was part of the Dolls, too, especially a couple of the covers on the second album, and honestly, I didn't much care for it then, either.

the beginning of the Hot, Hot, Hot video is this weird moment where an out of character "Poindexter" explains he used to be in the New York Dolls and this is his new act or some ish

here’s where I interrupt the proceedings for a PA by a Calypso and Soca Hall of Fame inductee:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkGgdIBX1to

I had forgotten all about the intro to the Poindexter video. It is kind of strange.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhZba-P7R18

Watching that led me to this Tonight Show clip, which is something:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EalIXbQsLCA

I enjoyed both the Hot Hot intro and the Carson clip.

There was a sketch on the comedy show Bizarre with the same extended joke, although I don't think Goulet was the punchline. I assume they're both borrowing some old vaudeville routine.

the song was so annoyingly ubiquitous that every fuckin thing was working in "Hot Hot Hot".

one day I went to uhh, I think Disney MGM Studios with my folks and all of the Toons were putting on a musical show, and then they FUCKING START PERFORMING "HOT HOT HOT". Roger Rabbit singing lead, it was annoying.

It was either that or "Vietnamese Baby".

I know that Johansen is out promoting something, and that that's what you do, but I wonder if he really believes himself when he brushes away his old group in the Carson interview and says he's doing something "a bit more mature" now--did he think he'd be remembered for Buster Poindexter? I also wonder if he was the only guest who ever called Carson "John."

He is joking, as the Hot Hot Hot version of the schtick makes clear. The character is named Buster Poindexter!

(I'm sure he was sincere about wanting to perform standards and dance hits at that period in his life, but he clearly didn't think that "Buster Poindexter" was a serious artiste who was going to create a standing legacy in world history.)

there was a whole lot of buster in the dolls, tbh. ref. showdown, great big kiss, stranded in the jungle, don't start me talkin', etc. etc.

just occurred to me he was probably best known in the larger culture as the cabbie from Scrooged

I know him as Looney from Let It Ride (thanks Comedy Central)

He is joking, as the Hot Hot Hot version of the schtick makes clear.

Wouldn't count on that at all. Artists kid themselves all the time when it comes to concepts like maturity and artistic growth.

i'm sure i've seen johansen more than any other performer. (i'm not proud.) he is at his best when he is first working out his concepts. those early buster shows at tramps were a hoot. i caught a couple of "dollettes" shows (him + syl + staten island cronies) that were post-dolls and pre-solo album, and they were great too. you never knew what you were going to hear next. i did see the real dolls once in their very waning red patent leather days. that show has a special place in my heart but i sure wish i had seen them earlier.

he discusses Scrooged in the Carson clip, in the context of Buster Poindexter being this persona / project and using his real name for other work

Wouldn't count on that at all. Artists kid themselves all the time when it comes to concepts like maturity and artistic growth.

"Some of the older kids might remember I used to make loud, raucous music fifteen years ago, but now I want to do something refined and dignified, so soft and sweet, that you might sip wine by the fireplace while listening. Here, I'll show you: *puts face in camera and screams 'YESSS-aaaahhhh, HA HA HAHHAHHAHAHAGH!!'*"

I'm pretty sure he knew what he was doing.

I'm rarely sure of anything; I know you usually are.

I don't think that him understanding the camp/commercial appeal of Buster Poindexter and also feeling he'd outgrown the New York Dolls part of his life are mutually exclusive.

I'm sure he was sincere about wanting to perform standards and dance hits at that period in his life

:)

But, you know, he was covering Big Fat Mamas Are Back in Style and Who Drank My Beer (While I Was in the Rear)?, not Moon River.

those early buster shows at tramps were a hoot

yes! the schtick was good until he leaned so far into it that the schtick basically swallowed him.

The longer you stare into the abyss...

the longer the abyss gets HOT HOT HOT!

Man, motherfuck Todd Rundgren. Devo, Fela Kuti and Iron Maiden all locked out but that cocksucker gets in?

Well they have to make sure that all of the 70s classic rock dudes get in, even the third tier ones.

I wish they'd just stop nominating Chaka at this point. It's just getting cruel.

I misread and thought the Dolls had gotten in and was going to say Little Richard was turning over in his... SHUT UP!

man that Buster Poindexter clip on Carson is a hoot ("tout suite").

TWO GERMS IN THE HALL!

It's a shame Fela didn't get in, but I'm not terribly surprised. Foo Fighters was a band custom built to appeal to RRHOF voters, so that's no surprise.

I forgot that Smear wasn't included with Nirvana.

Foo Fighters : Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame :: H.E.R. : Grammys

Jay-Z also kind of the perfect hip hop star for RRHOF.

For me, the Foo Fighters are silly, but a friend made me somewhat more receptive to the idea that there's a case there (all those extra words are code for "For me, the Foo Fighters are silly). I also consider the Go-Go's kind of weak.

And as Greil Marcus chimes in every year, what about the Shangri-Las?

he's so known as public/business figure there are probably people who voted for him that don't know his music

I've only heard maybe three Foo Fighters songs in my life. All three were perfectly competent, big-catchy-chorus pop-rock. But shouldn't there be more to a "Hall of Fame" act than "perfectly competent"?

Exactly how I'd put it. I always draw baseball analogies: it'd be like putting steady, competent Tom Candiotti in the HOF. (And even if Tom Candiotti were really popular and a super-nice guy, should that make a difference?)

think about Foo Fighters getting in before Soundgarden

Winner of a popularity contest happens to be a likeable dude, pundits shocked.

Except you guys keep ignoring the fact that the RRHOF is also somewhat of a popularity contest and branding extension - mediocre or not, the Foo Fighters have maintained a really high level of popularity for 25 years now and continue to notch up Grammys and #1 rock radio songs, plus Grohl is great at inserting himself into the "rock and roll history ambassador" role he loves so much.

I don't know if this has historically been a popularity contest, though...I think you could find a lot of exceptions to that.

"rock and roll history ambassador"

I agree, that's the biggest factor. One day, Paul Shaffer will be inducted.

xpost - Exceptions sure, but c'mon, the RRHOF is a huge popularity contest.

I don't know if this has historically been a popularity contest, though...I think you could find a lot of exceptions to that.

There was a greater tolerance for/embrace of weirdos from previous generations for sure. The "modern" acts that get inducted are much more complacent, "safe" representatives of their generation — Green Day and Foo Fighters yes, Jane's Addiction never.

Don't get me wrong, there are easily 3 dozen artists/bands nominated that deserve induction before the Foos, not defending them, but they were the easiest to predict shoe-in in years.

I don't know where I'd draw the line--1960? 1970? later?--but there's a line in there where on one side 97% of the picks make perfect sense to me, and on the other side, I'm lost when it comes to who belongs and who doesn't.

OH MY GOD THE ROCK N ROLL HALL OF FAME IS A POPULARITY CONTEST AND MARKETING DRIVEN
*passes out*

Those 70s weirdos were commercially huge, much more so than Jane’s Addiction etc.

Foo Fighters, the Harold Baines of HOF inductees?

(xpost) But clearly Todd Rundgren isn't there because of his popularity and/or marketing prowess. I completely agree that that statement applies in some, maybe the majority of cases. But it's not always the guiding consideration.

Those 70s weirdos were commercially huge, much more so than Jane’s Addiction etc.

Their record sales aside, Jane's Addiction were a massive cultural force just by virtue of, you know, starting Lollapalooza.

Sure, Rundgren isn't super popular, but he's also a lifer that has a good rep among rock writers of a certain generation so, again, not that surprising.

I've always been baffled at the Go-Gos being considered a major band. Are they considered very influential?

I mean, they literally "got the beat".

But clearly Todd Rundgren isn't there because of his popularity and/or marketing prowess

didn't todd rundgren produce bat out of hell?

I love the Go-Gos unreservedly and will do so forever, but you do you

That said: why do you hate fun?

FWIW, the HOF website's copy for Foo Fighters literally begins: "Foo Fighters carry the torch of rock authenticity..."

dad-rock authenticity

didn't todd rundgren produce bat out of hell?

Probably a strike against him in the eyes of many critic voters.

I've always been baffled at the Go-Gos being considered a major band. Are they considered very influential?

Yes, to a number of female artists of a certain age/generation in particular. Also: Beauty and The Beat was one of the main albums to pull New Wave into the mainstream.

Huh

The inclusion of Turner, King and The Go-Go's makes it the first time three female artists have been inducted in the Performers category in a single class.

Re: Foo Fighters: no other band has done as much work to combat Foo.

Some artists have either been apathetic in the struggle against Foo. Some have even actively supported Foo.

they were the easiest to predict shoe-in in years.

i'm no fan of the foo, but this is otm. at a certain point, you have to induct the popularly-beloved war horses. this is all basically an advertisement for a museum that people buy tickets to go visit.

The Go-Go's three albums >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Foo Fighters' discography

didn't todd rundgren produce bat out of hell?

He was inducted as a performer, though, tbf. In the US, he had one gold album and one top 10 hit, with 8 songs making the hot 100 altogether. For comparison, Jane's Addiction had three gold albums, one platinum, and one double-platinum album.

Jane's Addiction has a platinum (Nothing's Shocking) 2X Platinum (Ritual) and Gold record (Strays)

Rundgren only has one Gold album in his entire career (Something/Anything) nothing else

Go-Gos have one 2X and one Gold

ah shit sund4r

Foo Fighters fail for not having a Greatest Hits album called "Best of Foo"

Oh one of those golds is for a video, oops. One also a comp. xp lol

Soundgarden has Gold, 2XP, 5XP, 2XP

"the torch of rock authenticity"

My new favourite phrase ever! I picture something like the Olympics, and Bob Seger passes it to Huey Lewis who passes it to Dave Matthews who passes it to Dave Grohl.

careful of what's in that torch if Dave Matthews is passing it to u

The Go-Go's three albums >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Foo Fighters' discography

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, May 12, 2021 10:42 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Al otm. The Foos never did anything remotely as thrilling as "Head Over Heels."

yeah for sure

tarfumes otm

lmao at that Foos "torch" quote. the best thing about them is how when they would be on Letterman he would always make jokes about how much they hate foo

hell, "Heaven is a Place on Earth" >>>>> Foo Fighters discography

nah "My Hero", "Monkey Wrench" are better

idk i think the foos have basically been coasting off the greatness of everlong for about 25 years

"Heaven Is A Place On Earth" sucks a lot

oh yeah that's good too

first album in general is actually kind of a fun and scrappy big budget bedroom album

(oops foo fighters i mean)

or as I like to call it "Heaven Is a Place Where Belinda Actually Sings This In Tune"

i'll always stan for that album. was so disappointing when they became the more sterile band they would eventually become as early as the second album.

the first Foo tour was a lot of fun too. they played a lot of their B-sides like Winnebago and How I Miss You to fill out the set.

ever heard the demo recording of Waiting for a Star to Fall by Belinda, before Boy Meets Girl just decided to record it themselves?

I like the first Go-Go's album, like "Head Over Heels," like a couple of Belinda Carlisle songs, and like them much more than the Foo Fighters. (I like fun, too.) But I wouldn't put them in the HOF.

(Weird and memorable use of "Heaven..." in The Handmaid's Tale).

or as I like to call it "Heaven Is a Place Where Belinda Actually Sings This In Tune"

― 80's hair metal , and good praise music ! (DJP),

We won't agree, but this is an example of a song that needed an average or below average singer to work (see also: "Human").

didn't todd rundgren produce bat out of hell?

yes but I guess they forgave him

The Go-Gos single from last year was awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7oKcCQ7O8

We won't agree, but this is an example of a song that needed an average or below average singer to work

Good list/playlist topic.

it would end up as a "best of New Order" playlist

Madonna - Immaculate Collection

I just imagined a better singer like Alison Moyet singing "Perfect Kiss" and "Age of Consent" and die

"Musical Excellence" for LL Cool J and "Early Influence" for Kraftwerk are pretty smooth ways of getting them in. It's a cop out - they should be full inductees - but I guess it gets them in before someone else dies.

or rather inducted as "performers," it's not like "early influence" et al are partial inductees

I have to keep adjusting my timeline--"early influence" no longer means Big Mama Thorton and the 5 Royales, it's Kraftwerk.

...and Charley Patton!

there's an interview out there where Bono gets cheekily asked "will you ever be as good as Coldplay?" and he cheekily answers "they're one of our biggest influences."

as if there were a cheekiness shortage in rock journalism

I'm doing a remote supply/substitute job right now (easiest job in the world), grade 7, and just to make conversation I mentioned the six inductees. They know Jaz-Z, of course, and some know the Foo Fighters. No one else...until, five minutes after they went back to work, one guy said "This is a bit off topic, but did the Go-Go's sing 'Head Over Heels'?"

The one thing I miss most about teaching full-time.

"Off topic," I mean.

first album in general is actually kind of a fun and scrappy big budget bedroom album

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, May 12, 2021 7:56 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

foo fighters s/t low key one of the best rock albums of all time

as is beauty and the beat tbh

rock music crawled so that "how much more" could fly

I have to keep adjusting my timeline--"early influence" no longer means Big Mama Thorton and the 5 Royales, it's Kraftwerk.

70s artists kraftwerk and gil scott heron are "early influences", alongside performer inductees carole king and tina turner who each recorded in the 1950s. i get that the unspoken part of "early influences" for those 2 acts is meant to be "...on hip hop", but still its starting getting confusing keeping track of the various parallel timelines and levels of recognition that the HOF is juggling. i have no idea what "musical excellence" is intended to mean in this context, as separate from "performer". is it just like an honorable mention?

Fred Durst, early influencer

congrats to the 2022 class of early influencers Lula Reed, Fieldy, and Waddy Wachtel

“Circle in the Sand” is more sophisticated and catchy than any Foo Fighters single I’ve heard

This just in: 1918 Spanish flu epidemic will be inducted as...

wait for it...

an early influenza

the fuck? It took until 2021 for Charley Patton to get in as an "early influence"? I just assumed he'd been inducted in the '80s.

I guess if Link Wray's not getting in under that category, he's not getting in at all. And if Fela had been voted in, they probably woulda put him in as an "early influence," too.

xp I laffed!

“Circle in the Sand” is more sophisticated and catchy than any Foo Fighters single I’ve heard

― beamish13

*shivers in the salty air*

the food fighters are so bad, even the bizkit are better

whoa let's not get carried away. Limp Bizkit wishes they could have written an "Everlong".

it would have been about something very different

lol

why the fuck does anyone care who some nostalgic boomer twats want to build a shrine to in a concrete pyramid in cleveland?

bc we love music

feel like this thing is fundamentally anti-music

I can't remember anything by the Nostalgic Boomer Twats.

What was their bestselling album?

I'll never forget the day, four or five years ago, I stopped by Reckless Records over my lunch hour and was talking to one of the employees when this middle aged guy in a suit rushed in, pulled a list out of his pocket and breathlessly asked if they "got any albums by the following" and proceeded to reel off a list of the inductees that had been announced that morning. After he left the clerk goes, "we get three or four of those every year on this day, like clockwork".

^that's kind of adorable, actually

I'm doing a remote supply/substitute job right now (easiest job in the world), grade 7, and just to make conversation I mentioned the six inductees. They know Jaz-Z, of course, and some know the Foo Fighters. No one else...

Was going to say the same thing but, kids these days ...

I'd guess it's more of a case of name recognition? It's been more than twenty years since she retired and almost thirty years since the big biopic, so it's not like she's had the recent treatment like Queen or Elton John. Hopefully the new doc series will help in that regard.

I'm fairly positive the kids would recognize her songs if they were played though, even if the name didn't click.

And as Greil Marcus chimes in every year, what about the Shangri-Las?

this, this and this. also this.

oh, and also: every song grant hart ever wrote is each, on its own, better than, and probably responsible for, the entire foo fighters catalog.

I actually prefaced Tina Turner's name with "One or two of you might know..." but nothing. It's possible someone did know her and just didn't speak up, but when I think about it, where would a 12-year-old know Tina Turner from? Her radio presence is limited to a certain kind of MOR/Boomer/whatever station, and I don't think kids that age listen to radio of any kind. Her celebrity presence has been minimal for years but I don't know, does she still present at award shows or show up on talk shows? On the other hand, I have to believe the one kid who knew a Go-Go's song probably knows her.

Seems like, aside from Angela Bassett's career, the biopic's lasting legacy has been Ike memes

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b1/7c/c0/b17cc06d56f6c2bd26f9a2737bb65948.jpg

I was also thinking about the infamous reference Jay-Z made in “Drunk In Love”, but forgot how oblique it actually was (for a 21st century kid that is).

ike & tina was a hacky reference for rappers for decades, glad that it's waned

oh, and also: every song grant hart ever wrote is each, on its own, better than, and probably responsible for, the entire foo fighters catalog.

― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, May 12, 2021 1:39 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

it's kind of depressing to think that the entirety of 80s U.S. punk, hardcore, post-punk, "This Band Could be Your Life" type bands are going to get uniformly ignored

nah they'll all get in as Early Influencers after Blink-182 are inducted in 10 years

oh, and also: every song grant hart ever wrote is each, on its own, better than, and probably responsible for, the entire foo fighters catalog.

I totally get not having heard of Carole King, Todd Rundgren or The Go-Go’s, but Tina Turner?

I didn't even know any of their songs when *I* was in the seventh grade, and I would've known Tina Turner only from a commercial or a movie I saw on TV. Outside of the Beatles (which I didn't listen to until late in high school), I don't think I really paid attention to anything 'historical' until college.

I actually remember the first time I read about Tapestry - it was some magazine listing the best-selling albums of all-time, and I was like "what's Tapestry?" It seemed very odd that this ordinary-looking person (sitting in a window sill with a cat) could sell as many records as all this other stuff that either had some flashy-looking concept or some larger-than-life personality.

It's a little deflating to say this, but I imagine LL Cool J would be well-known because of his thoroughly mediocre movie career. I guess he's kind of like Eric Clapton where it's a little bewildering when you find out he's done all this great, groundbreaking stuff but you'd never know from the massive amount of underwhelming work he's done in the decades since.

Also, I think Dionne Warwick was probably better known for her psychic infomercials when I was a kid. That was kind of weird finding out she did all this class stuff decades earlier.

ll cool j also hosted the grammys, for whatever that's worth

I know him solely because of his penchant for big ole butts

I'm a non-parent who learned very early in my teaching career that the window of history for that age group is measured in months. 30 years ago, I was constantly surprised by people they didn't know; the wheel has turned a few dozen times since then. They wouldn't even know the group that sang the song about moving like a Jagger.

(Come to think of that, I can't remember their name either.)

(I asked them about LL Cool J, too, and either they didn't know him or were just bored of the whole topic at that point.)

(Ha--didn't realize that song is 10 years old now.)

"Because I Got High" is almost 20 years old, which kinda blows my mind

Jesus, I didn't even know there was/is a "NCIS: Los Angeles." I doubt they'd know that show, NCIS in general struck me as something everyone's parents would watch.

"Because I Got High" is almost 20 years old, which kinda blows my mind

― Feta Van Cheese (Neanderthal), Wednesday, May 12, 2021 4:00 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

ah fuck, i was gonna accomplish so much in that time...

I mean...unless you don't accept that rap is the equal of rock, LL Cool J absolutely should be a slam dunk in the same way that the 50s rock n' roll guys were

I would out of hand dismiss his post Mama Said career either there's good stuff there

i have no problem with Cool James being in, I don't care about "he's not rock", since they use that genre tag loosely to begin with

"4,3,2,1" belongs in some sort of hall of fame, maybe horse racing

so magnetic as a performer

pic.twitter.com/SREjBpSG5a

— Todd Rundgren (@toddrundgren) May 12, 2021

_oh, and also: every song grant hart ever wrote is each, on its own, better than, and probably responsible for, the entire foo fighters catalog.

― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, May 12, 2021 1:39 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink_

it's kind of depressing to think that the entirety of 80s U.S. punk, hardcore, post-punk, "This Band Could be Your Life" type bands are going to get uniformly ignored

Re: Grant Hart

You will never see a band signed to SST, 4AD, or Factory in this bullshit organization

I’m still amazed that Eric B. and Rakim even made it to the shortlist.

CBS produces television for people with incredibly low standards. It’s the formula perfect by Les Moonves

I might be way off here, but I think Husker Du will be in there one day--especially if someone like Dave Grohl advocates for them. (Maybe Black Flag, too.)

PIXIES

Replacements, as well.

(I know they’re not on one of those aforementioned labels, but they’re part of that 80s scene)

I truly can’t see Pixies or Replacements getting in. They don’t appeal to the organization’s core demos, and they never had blockbuster sales

No way in hell is Black Flag getting in

Though the bad vibes surrounding who gets inducted and invited and who doesn't would be amazing

At least those ’80s bands have a better chance than ’90s faves like Pavement, Royal Trux, Sebadoh…

The MC5 aren’t in, so as long as that’s the case, I don’t see the Replacements or Hüsker Dü getting in (vis-a-vis extremely influential bands with negligible sales). In a pinch, I could maybe see the Pixies getting in...as an “early influence” (on Nirvana).

(xposts) Not today, no. But as the cliche goes, things never change until one day they do. The people who vote now are not the same people who voted (or met) 20 years ago; they know who Husker Du is. The Grammys were laughed at as recently as when they gave that heavy metal award to Jethro Tull. Soon after that, probably out of embarrassment, they seemed to settle into nominations that were at least connected to reality. I expect the HOF will eventually be forced to look at some of the more egregious omissions (I would count Husker Du and the Replacements as such)--because enough voters speak up, or Dave Grohl speaks up, or someone else says something in an acceptance speech--and that sets something in motion. It happened with the Stooges.

Or someone will wear a T-shirt at the right moment; there's probably a secret push going on right now for Rudimentary Peni after Sound of Metal.

Trotsky Icepick, Zoogz Rift, Painted Willie - 2027 inductees

Sonic Youth could blow this thing wide open.

Somehow they came up for me today... let me think.

loooollll master of treacle

I'm going say for the one millionth time Blue Oyster Cult should be in

‘OG punks for the win!’ The Go-Go’s on their Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2021-05-12/the-go-gos-rock-hall-of-fame-induction

Think it’s nice that Dionne got in on Burt’s birthday.

um, wait

Did anybody mention yet that there will be not one but two Germs in the RRHOF now? This year is definitely the covert vindication of L.A. punk for the Go-Go’s alone, but Pat Smear sneaking in there too is a lagniappe.

Also it would be wonderful if the Go-Go’s are a bellwether for the HOF honoring 80s/90s indie rock, but I fear it’s not to be. Amidst the voting body it appears “disco sucks” is alive and well. Still. After 40 fucking years! If gold and platinum sellers like Chic and Chaka can’t get in, what hope is there for the Dü?

The people who vote now are not the same people who voted (or met) 20 years ago

A lot of them are. This is the exact problem.

Did anybody mention yet that there will be not one but two Germs in the RRHOF now?

Me! Charlotte Caffey told Rolling Stone that they should play "Forming" during the all-star jam w/Belinda singing and doing things with peanut butter.

(xpost) The half-dozen people I know who vote have all been added in the last few years, and my assumption is that that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm pretty sure there was one year in there where they added a few hundred voters. So there's undoubtedly carryover, yes, but I have to believe there's a big difference over 20 years.

this fucking guy

https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/awards/9571422/todd-rundgren-rock-hall-interview/

"I'm a big Dionne Warwick fan, but name me one Dionne Warwick rock n' roll song," he explained earlier in 2021, citing one of this year's other nominees. "While I'm aware of Fela Kuti, I can't name a single musician who's ever cited him as a principal influence. Year by year it makes even less sense, so why would I be more excited about it or suddenly change my mind? Why don't they just start inducting blues guys? Why do they have to go to Dionne Warwick or Mary J. Blige?"

We clowned on that interview way upthread (tho that quote could always use more clowning).

XP ...and some folks are even whiter than him!

Ah, got it. As I posted I thought, wait, this surely has already been posted?

xp

Never change, Todd. Have to find that one XTC quote about him.

For all the years that had passed since his arrogance rubbed the Band and Badfinger the wrong way, little had changed in his modus operandi. Even those visitors who loved the location were treated with veiled disdain by their host. “His people skills are like Hermann Goering’s,” said Andy Partridge, for whose band XTC Rundgren produced the brilliant Skylarking (1986). “I remember talking briefly to a couple of the Psychedelic Furs,” says John Holbrook. “They were like, ‘That fucking guy, we’re never going to work with him again.’ With Todd it was always like, ‘That sucks, let me do it.’”

Hoskyns, Barney. Small Town Talk (p. 289). Hachette Books.

Take up the Rundgren
Such a twat as this becomes the HOF
But here shows much amiss

i assumed that picture of him dressed like luke skywalker playing a toy space guitar was a joke until i saw he is the one who tweeted it

As I said way above--even as one of Rundgren's advocates on here--that quote is bizarrely clueless, especially "Why don't they just start inducting blues guys?" And I count '60s Dionne Warwick as right there with the Shangri-Las as the most egregious current non-inductee.

Warwick and Dusty Springfield are probably Bacharach (and David)'s two greatest and best known interpreters, and it's bewildering that Warwick's still waiting while Springfield's been in for over 20 years.

Is it?

I know DS has one famous album and DW doesn't, but that's where you have to embrace that some artists are just much more suited to compilations: for me, '60s DW has easily has the better body of work.

(minus one "has")

xpost yeah djp otm

I think there's validity to that, yes, but the HOF hasn't really been bad at inducting deserving African-Americans for the most part (especially early on); overlooking women seems to be what's on the mind of voters right now. I honestly think the DS/DW question has a lot to do with Dusty in Memphis vs. whatever DW greatest-hits you prefer. There is a strong album-vs.-singles/compilation bias at work (why the Shangri-Las and Tommy James aren't in).

Again, I'm not discounting your point, I just think there's more to it than that.

Another obvious example to me: the Zombies are in because they made a famous album (a "real" album, not a compilation). I'm not kidding when I say the Guess Who and Three Dog Night were responsible for many more great songs, but they'll never get near the HOF.

otm -- it's true about the anti-singles bias

There is a strong album-vs.-singles/compilation bias at work (why the Shangri-Las and Tommy James aren't in).

i'm sure you're right on this, but it's pretty absurd as it's the ROCK N ROLL hall of fame, a genre that was completely tied to the 45 format in its early days

It is, totally agree--the Sgt. Pepper hangover.

The opposite side of this valuation of LPs over singles is insisting that certain acts DID in fact make great albums, like that Pitchfork 60s list where they listed studio albums instead of compilations for acts much better represented by the latter.

...like having a compilation be your best album is something to be ashamed of.

It worked for the Eagles!

Two words--someone has to post two small words right now.

Go poo.

The anti-singles bias reminds me of one of the recent Zoom panels that’s part of an ongoing tribute to Dave Marsh. Everyone on the panel — John Sinclair, Wayne Kramer, historian/activist Marsha Music — expressed disgust and bewilderment that Mitch Ryder isn’t in the HoF.

I seem to remember some people on this borad sniffing their noses at compilations, JW maybe.

I'd have to dig them up, but I think both Bangs and Christgau wrote reviews of The Best of the Guess Who that made note of this bias in 1970; it got worse and worse through the '70s.

Is LL Cool J thought of more as a singles or an album artist? I was wondering if he might be hurt by the same bias, but looking at his Wikipedia discography, he seems to do about equally well on the charts in both categories.

definitely both

like I said, unless you feel like hip hop is inherently a lesser genre, there's absolutely no argument against LL being in.

I thought he was a sure thing the first time he was nominated. He's got pretty much every box checked: sales, chart success, critical acclaim at various points in his career, and he seems to have elder stateman status. I don't know if he's considered influential. (Meaning I actually don't know.)

historically, I consider him a "bridge" between the Run DMC type rhyming and the more rhythmically complex new school, Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, Kool G Rap etc

also just a stone cold fox

My around the way dude

LL absolutely should be in. So should Salt-N-Pepa, imo

That'd be a good choice too. But, in keeping with my idea that this singles/albums bias exists, I bet Lauryn Hill goes in first.

I love Salt N Pepa, and am not arguing against them being in, but LL is at least 9x better than them as a decision-making musician and writer, and 11x better a rapper than either of them.

(The one time I saw him, m/l past the point when he still dropped a great single every two years just to prove he still had it, he had Bobcat AND Cut Creator as DJs. Cheryl & Sandy can't even treat one Spinderella well enough that their firings aren't traumatic.)

Question: Well, And I have to tell you some bad music related news. The New York Dolls did not get into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame –

Mayor; That’s wrong. I want to condemn them for that, Jillian. I am condemning them.

Question: It's wrong. These bands – they're considered alt-rock bands, would not have existed without the New York Dolls. It's just wrong. It's a travesty and I'm not even a big Dolls fan anyway.

Mayor: You and I are in total agreement. I'm outraged. I'm going to storm off the set right now in outrage.

Question: You're not going to storm off with all that Shake Shack stuff around?

Mayor: No, I'm actually – I would take it with me, that's it.

https://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/358-21/transcript-mayor-de-blasio-holds-media-availability

!