Joan Jett's Open Letter to Rolling Stone (Women in Rock

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> An Open Letter to Rolling Stone
> by Joan Jett
>
> This letter was written to rolling stone after their
> "women in "rock" issue was published, but was not
> printed by their editors. Please forward it to all the
> rocking people you know!!!!!
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> I tried to find some cleverly worded way to express my
> disgust with your "Women in Rock" issue, but what i
> have to say is really quite simple: You guys are
> completely retarded.
>
> By RS standards, Rock is no longer a style of music but
> a trendy costume to be whipped up by expensive stylists
> and slapped onto the latest pop tart barbie doll. Give
> a girl some tight pants and a spiky bracelet and POOF!
> She ROCKS!
>
> Your poor choice of cover girls and featured artists
> brings to mind the Sports Illustrated swimsuit
> editions. There is nothing necessarily wrong with the
> breast-baring models inside..but we all understand that
> they have NOTHING TO DO WITH SPORTS--Which just might be
> offensive to women who are interested in sports or who
> might even be (gasp) real athletes.
>
> Yes, Britney has a talented stylist and yes, somebody
> gave Shakira a Guns & Roses t-shirt to wear..but they
> ARE NOT NOW NOR WILL THEY EVER BE ROCK.
>
> Maybe it's naive of me to expect any glimmer of
> rock'n'roll credibility OR respect for women from a
> magazine whose cover shot is regularly a naked
> underweight actress. The thing is, I AM a woman
> musician with a rock band, and as we all are I am
> STARVED for any little crumb of recognition that real
> women rockers might be thrown. So like a sucker I find
> myself short another five bucks ..and pissed enough to
> write my first letter to an editor. Avril Lavigne gets
> some studded accessories from Hot Topic so now she's
> "upholding the brazen tradition of teenage
> outrage"???!! Are you SERIOUS? And could someone please
> explain to me why people keep insisting on referring to
> PINK as rock? Wasn't she doing the white girl hip hop
> thing a minute ago? Yeah, she performed on the
> Aerosmith tribute show --big deal..she was on the Janet
> Jackson tribute show just before that--Whatever's
> trendy. WHO CARES. She's a Spice Girl reject...but I
> digress.
>
> Jewel and Mandy friggin' Moore have full page features
> as Rock Icons...Meanwhile Joan Jett gets one line. ONE
> LINE. Joan Jett & the Blackhearts, who have never
> stopped touring, recently did 10 days in the Middle
> East playing for the troops stationed in Afghanistan.
> In AFGHANISTAN, Joan would come onstage wearing a
> birkha, which she ripped off and stomped on before
> blazing through the purest and nastiest rock show
> ANYWHERE. But even in the RS WOMEN IN ROCK issue, a
> story like that gets ONE SENTENCE on the bottom of the
> last page of Random Notes.
>
> Britney's Rock credentials? Well, she butchers the song
> "I Love Rock'n'Roll" on her latest record, and when
> asked about it the genius replies "Well, I've always
> loved Pat Benatar." And SHE is your Rock issue cover
> girl?? You should be REALLY embarrassed.
>
> Sleater Kinney was the only rock group listed on the
> cover..and they got only half a page. Ashanti, the r&b
> back up singer who can't seem to do anything without
> "featuring Jah Rule," has two pages.
>
> What about the Donnas? The Yeah Yeah Yeahs? The
> Distillers? A mag like RS has the power to shine
> important light on groups like these-- instead they are
> afterthoughts, and that valuable spotlight is wasted on
> the same overexposed pop princesses WHO HAVE NOTHING TO
> DO WITH ROCK.
>
> In your own letter from the editor you have the
> hypocritical balls to say "rock radio won't touch
> female artists, while the pop factory keeps churning
> out soundalike clones, and ambitious musicians with
> something to say find themselves left out in the cold."
>
> The pages that follow those words are a blatant display
> that Rolling Stone magazine is happily working for the
> factory now too.
>
> If the issue had been called "Women in Music"..or maybe
> "Some Cute Girls with Top 10 Records out Right Now"..I
> would have no beef with it. Corny as it may sound, ROCK
> is something which is still meaningful and even sacred
> to some of us. Use the word "rock" in bold letters next
> to a picture of Britney Fucking Spears, and you're
> turning your whole publication into a joke...and an
> offensive joke at that.
>

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 25 November 2002 12:15 (twenty-three years ago)

why bother to state the obvious?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 12:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Joan Jett a rockist? Who'da thunk it? Or is she just pissed she missed out on the royalties?

― B.Rad (Brad), Monday, 25 November 2002 12:28 (twenty-three years ago)

she spelled Ja Rule wrong

― Honda (Honda), Monday, 25 November 2002 12:34 (twenty-three years ago)

mark s to thread (for SOOOOO many reasons)!

― zebedee, Monday, 25 November 2002 12:38 (twenty-three years ago)

|:[]

― joan jett's actual girlfriend (mark s), Monday, 25 November 2002 12:44 (twenty-three years ago)

I refer to myself in the third person = my press agent wrote this

(or my non-actual girlfriend did)

― zebedee, Monday, 25 November 2002 12:52 (twenty-three years ago)

but isn't all this:

Meanwhile Joan Jett gets one line. ONE
> LINE. Joan Jett & the Blackhearts, who have never
> stopped touring, recently did 10 days in the Middle
> East playing for the troops stationed in Afghanistan.
> In AFGHANISTAN, Joan would come onstage wearing a
> birkha, which she ripped off and stomped on before
> blazing through the purest and nastiest rock show
> ANYWHERE.

a lil' TOO MUCH referring to oneself-in-third ? I mean, if it was "one sentence at the bottom of her open letter," fine. but it's too many sentences, like two. it's scary.

this reminds me of that joni-mitchell-on-madonna thing (has it been discussed here?) lately, i'll start a thread on that

― V, Monday, 25 November 2002 13:01 (twenty-three years ago)

just googled the letter and it is on www.joanjett.com signed by a maya price, not joan

― H (Heruy), Monday, 25 November 2002 13:20 (twenty-three years ago)

dio you think joan herself would have worded it more cleverly

― V, Monday, 25 November 2002 13:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Ah, so it's rockist. But you know, Joan Jett really does rock.

― Sean (Sean), Monday, 25 November 2002 13:42 (twenty-three years ago)

I think her points are fair even if her taste is eh - it's a disservice to rockers to call some of those people rock; it's a disservice to those people to call them it too. Nobody wins.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 25 November 2002 13:44 (twenty-three years ago)

yes we must all SERVE ROCK BETTER

― bob zemko (bob), Monday, 25 November 2002 13:55 (twenty-three years ago)

She's absolutely right.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:18 (twenty-three years ago)

>:[]

― joan jett's actual girlfriend (mark s), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Let me see if I've really got this right:

"In AFGHANISTAN, Joan would come onstage wearing a birkha, which she ripped off and stomped on ....";

and this apparently is a GOOD thing, whereas:

"Use the word "rock" in bold letters next to a picture of Britney Fucking Spears, and you're turning your whole publication into a joke...and an offensive joke at that."

Is it just me, or is it possible that the standards being applied here are just the teensy weensiest little bit unbalanced?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:27 (twenty-three years ago)

She is right, but it just makes her look petulant; just like Joni Mitchell.

What I do want to think about is this: my first notion was "well, she doesn't compete with those swimsuit model popstars anyway"(Joan but Joni too), but of course the truth is she does.

― Sean (Sean), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:27 (twenty-three years ago)

how is she right. Britney is the rock!

HONOR THE FIRE!!!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:34 (twenty-three years ago)

You know she's right.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:39 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.nekojita.com/report/990605-off/egg-dish.jpg

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:42 (twenty-three years ago)

".... my first notion was "well, she doesn't compete with those swimsuit model popstars anyway"(Joan but Joni too), but of course the truth is she does."

Of course she does / they do; in very much the same way as Lemmy Kilmister and Bob Dylan have to compete with Robbie Williams and Ronan Keating....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:51 (twenty-three years ago)

mark s = completely on FIAH, everybody stand back and let the man work

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Monday, 25 November 2002 14:59 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, you know, I used to love Joan Jett when I was a teenager, but not even that deep down nostalgic love can make me forgive some of the things she says in here (notably the birkah stomping and the "retarded" comment), despite her main point being 100% correct. Now, back to mark s.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 25 November 2002 15:30 (twenty-three years ago)

You used to love her? Ah, just forgive her.

― Sean (Sean), Monday, 25 November 2002 15:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Regardless of Jett's sour grapes and/or political incorrectness for usage of the term "retarded," you've got to admit that the woman has a goddamn point! Say what you want about Britney, Avril, Shakira and Pink but none of them....some of them? NO, NONE OF THEM...maybe one or two of'em? NO, NOT ONE OF'EM are "rock" in any way. That's doesn't make them "lesser" than rock, but let's not pretend they're something that they're not. You don't see Venom or New Model Army or Danzig trying to pass themselves off as "Pop" and clamouring to get on TRL do you? NO, BECAUSE NOBODY WOULD BELIEVE THEM! Why can't Popstars leave well enough alone and be happy being popstars without having to appropriate from the trappings of Rock? Jett's got a point.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 15:47 (twenty-three years ago)

That's doesn't make them "lesser" than rock

Alex doesn't really believe this. *insert smiley*

― Sean (Sean), Monday, 25 November 2002 15:48 (twenty-three years ago)

she doesn't cause rock is dead.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 15:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Another day, another ridiculous statement from Julio.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 15:53 (twenty-three years ago)

*COUGH*
just googled the letter and it is on www.joanjett.com signed by a maya price, not joan
-- H (harefeaine@y...), November 25th, 2002.

― zebedee, Monday, 25 November 2002 15:57 (twenty-three years ago)

"Jett's got a point."

Just out of interest Alex, how many of your fellow citizens would be remotely interested in any point that was made by an Afghan rock band who took a dump on the Stars & Stripes on stage at the start of every gig?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Stewart you can't just casually mention something like that without telling us the name of the band and where we can buy their records :-)

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:11 (twenty-three years ago)

haha stewart what's NOT interesting about that?

― jones (actual), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:12 (twenty-three years ago)

since when is a burqa equivalent to an american flag? jesus.

― maura (maura), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:17 (twenty-three years ago)

WWJJD?

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:17 (twenty-three years ago)

ps: HI GUYS!!! and i do mean 'guys' there

― maura (maura), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:17 (twenty-three years ago)

"haha stewart what's NOT interesting about that?"

Nothing at all - in fact I think it's so interesting that it completely eclipses the fact that the band have actually come to the US to make an extremely valid point about how fucking irritating it is when you get sand caught in your sandals.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:19 (twenty-three years ago)

"since when is a burqa equivalent to an american flag?"

Since it was used to symbolise a nation's beliefs maybe?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:21 (twenty-three years ago)

since when is a burqa equivalent to an american flag? jesus.

Okay, how about a pair of Dockers? A Tommy Hilfiger sweatshirt?

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 16:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Since it was used to symbolise a nation's beliefs maybe?

right, but there's a difference, because the gesture is i think at least slightly different in the way it's targeted.

ugh, forget it, i can't deal with yet another ILM thread where men pontificate on how everything's alright and looking at women as nothing more than fodder for bikini magazine covers is hella ok, because we're living in the best of all possible worlds. have fun, dudes. don't spill coffee on your dockers.

― maura (maura), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:27 (twenty-three years ago)

since when is a burqa equivalent to an american flag? jesus.

This is the most incomprehensible riddle I've ever heard

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:29 (twenty-three years ago)

don't spill coffee on your dockers.

Hey, they have these new ones that are like spill-proof and shit!

(btw, I'm not wearing Dockers.)

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 16:33 (twenty-three years ago)

"right, but there's a difference, because the gesture is i think at least slightly different in the way it's targeted"

I'm sorry Maura, I understand where you're coming from now and I do agree with the point you're making; however I DON'T believe this is the point Ms Jett is making - after all, she's hardly over in Afghanistan as part of Lilith Fair, is she? She's there to entertain the troops....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:36 (twenty-three years ago)

So what's dumbest thing?
-Joan Jett's opinions on a stupid Rolling Stone article
-Rolling Stone printing a stupid article
-People who don't give a fuck about either arguing about which is the dumbest

?
---

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:38 (twenty-three years ago)

How is that incomprehensible? The equivalent of an American Flag would be an Afghan Flag. The equivalent of a Birkah would be...well, a blouse, t-shirt or any type of top for women here in the US. You're just not allowed NOT wear it, for reasons of "propriety", for vaguely religious reasons, for...what IS the reason, anyway, besides the ingrained lechery of US men?

― matt riedl (veal), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:38 (twenty-three years ago)

"Since it was used to symbolise a nation's beliefs maybe?"

Well, for a start -- when I wrote that "Jett has a point," I was referring to her attack on Rolling Stone's "Women in Rock" being about nothing of the sort.

But, while we're on the subject or burquas and flags, I'd suggest that the burqua is not so much a symbol of "a nation's beliefs," but rather an example of fundamentalism taken to its most brutal extreme and roundly indefensible.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:41 (twenty-three years ago)

"But, while we're on the subject or burquas and flags, I'd suggest that the burqua is not so much a symbol of "a nation's beliefs," but rather an example of fundamentalism taken to its most brutal extreme and roundly indefensible."

Very true Alex, although I think you'll find there are an awful lot of Muslims out there who feel something broadly similar about the Stars and Stripes.

Fwiw, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with your point, merely trying to point out that in terms of "offensive joke"s, describing Britney Spears as rock rather than pop kind of pales into insignificance by comparison with the offensiveness of Ms Jett dissing an entire nation / religion to score a few cheap laughs from a bunch of squaddies!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:56 (twenty-three years ago)

The Runaways and J Jett's images were completely sexualised though Maura - OK she and her fans are older and wiser now but the anti-cheesecake stuff is still basically a righteous smokescreen for a spat over genre. Prince is like I said right about that - though the reason it's bad for RS to take the whole "hey its all rock" angle is that it leaves an opening for Jett et al to denigrate the talents of, say, Ashanti, by taking a snooty "R&B backup singer" line. The cheesecake presentation isn't great but it's a wider question than the thing Prince is getting angry about.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:57 (twenty-three years ago)

But Ashanti *IS* only an R&B backup singer.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 16:58 (twenty-three years ago)

No, she's an R&B solo artist.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Either way, she ain't rock.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Incidentally, is "Fucking" REALLY Britney's middle name? If it is then you bloody well SHOULD be rock!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:05 (twenty-three years ago)

John was making a joke, Matt.

― charlie va (charlie va), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Is Britney even relevant in her OWN world (i.e. vaccuous pop) any more? Hasn't she since been eclipsed and rendered old news by Christina "Beyond Thunderdome" Aguilera?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:10 (twenty-three years ago)

YES ALEX THATS THE POINT! (to Ashanti not Britney-relevance)

RS calling non-rock women "rock" because they're women and good cheesecake has a tiny plus in that it amusingly annoys musical conservatives. But it has big minuses in that it means other women who RS' readers might like get ignored AND it means a divide-and-rule thing goes on whereby men and women get to sneer at the lack of rock credentials of women like Ashanti who've never claimed they were "rock".

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)

I can go along with that.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:17 (twenty-three years ago)

"describing Britney Spears as rock rather than pop kind of pales into insignificance by comparison with the offensiveness of Ms Jett dissing an entire nation / religion to score a few cheap laughs from a bunch of
squaddies!"

Well, of course. This is, after all, I LOVE MUSIC, not I LOVE GLOBAL STRIFE AND CULTURAL INTOLERANCE.

Be that as it may, I don't think Jett was so much "dissing an entire nation/religion to score a few cheap laughs for a bunch of squaddies." I'd like to think her disrespect towards the burqua wasn't jingoism but rather a renouncement of said extreme fundamentalism....the mutation of a faith's belief system into a class structure that treats women as sub-human. Maybe I'm crediting Ms.Jett with more insight.

What's a squaddie?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:23 (twenty-three years ago)

"I'd like to think her disrespect towards the burqua wasn't jingoism but rather a renouncement of said extreme fundamentalism....the mutation of a faith's belief system into a class structure that treats women as sub-human."

OK, I'm making assumptions too, although like I said before, this was hardly the Afgha leg of Lilith tour she was on, she was over there entertaining the trooops.

"What's a squaddie?"

Derogatory Limey slang term for soldier

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Fair enough, Stew. I mean, if she came out and said "Let's fly a 757 into the K'aabaa over in Mecca and see how they like it," *THAT* would be problematic, but I don't think *ANYONE* can really defend the burqua (and what it stands for) with a straight face and clean conscience.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Brits: use "grunt" next time instead of "squaddie" (unless she was entertaining Her Majesty's Squaddies over there, of course).

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 17:31 (twenty-three years ago)

''but I don't think *ANYONE* can really defend the burqua (and what it stands for) with a straight face and clean conscience.''

well, toraneko to thread!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Osama Bin Laden to thread

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Clarifying my li'l joke - parse it thusly:

the original poster:

Q: since when is a burqa equivalent to an american flag?
A: jesus.

me:
This is the most incomprehensible riddle I've ever heard.

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:39 (twenty-three years ago)

''So what's dumbest thing?
-Joan Jett's opinions on a stupid Rolling Stone article
-Rolling Stone printing a stupid article
-People who don't give a fuck about either arguing about which is the dumbest''

the first two are very dumb. abt the third point: well, you started the thread mista. so that's your fault.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 17:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah - I'm undecided on all three actually - so it wasn't meant to be completely sarcastic... er.. it was a genuine question about three sarcastic things I guess..

Joan Jett - why would she think a RS reader would care?
RS - always prints shitty articles.
ILM / human nature - enjoys discussing such trivia.

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:11 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't think *ANYONE* can really defend the burqua (and what it stands for) with a straight face and clean conscience.

Actually a very very large number of Muslim women to thread, both from the Mid-East and from the U.S. The "subhuman" characterization is a giant overstep, insofar as it assumes there's no philosophical option for men and women to have different and equally-human roles: I'm not saying I'd agree with them, but a great number of Muslim women find this acceptable, and would likely tell you that what Jett is stomping on is what protects them from the "subhumanity" of male sexuality. I am not saying they're right.

I dunno, maybe it's a bad gesture to make in front of a bunch of men with guns, because it can imply to a third party that what they're involved in is a battle against a culture: "indefensible" or not, we're not meant to go around specifically revising the public decency laws of other nations. But my guess is that you have a bunch of guys in Afghanistan, and they're gonna see Joan Jett, and it's basically just sort of a cool prop for her to come out and burst out of a birkha: the audience doesn't have to get off on the stomping as a political gesture so much as just something that Joan Jett, the stage personality, would totally be expected to do.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:18 (twenty-three years ago)

By the way, I haven't read Rolling Stone in quite a while, but haven't they started using the term "rock" to apply to just about everything ever, simply so they can go on saying that they're "rock" and that "rock" is good and kids like it?

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:20 (twenty-three years ago)

.. or put more simply ...

"I'm Joan Jett and this is what I think of the Taliban's treatment of women."

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:21 (twenty-three years ago)

On the one hand, the burqa was a part of certain parts of Afghanistan's culture (i.e. there's no one "culture" there, but a number of competing ones) long before the Taliban.

On the other hand, the U.S. military is historically one of the most active exploiters/oppressors of women world-wide, so I'm not really sure what her point was at all.

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 18:25 (twenty-three years ago)

1. Liking rock does not make you a rockist.
2. I hope during the "top 100 women of Hip Hop" Joan Jett get's in there somehow.

― David Allen, Monday, 25 November 2002 18:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Joan Jett circa 1983 can hop my hip ANY DAY.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, what I was shooting for is that as a "personality" she needn't necessarily have any more of a "point" than "hell yeah, I'm Joan Jett, like I'd ever be forced to wear that shit." But yeah, she probably did think she was making a big "statement" --- which is sort of crap, because playing to the military semi-occupation of a foreign nation is probably not a great time for making "statements" that aren't really carefully thought out.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:52 (twenty-three years ago)

alex in nyc - are the beatles rock?

― dwh (dwh), Monday, 25 November 2002 18:54 (twenty-three years ago)

"hell yeah, I'm Joan Jett, like I'd ever be forced to wear that shit."

An out lesbian in Taliban-era Afghanistan would be more likely to be shot than forced to wear a burqa.

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 18:55 (twenty-three years ago)

The Beatles transcended one simple category.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:02 (twenty-three years ago)

alex- is link wray rock?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Julio -- I have no words for you, only rude gestures.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:10 (twenty-three years ago)

The infidel vixen should not strip herself of her burka. I declare a fatwa on Joan Jett

― Osama Bin Custos (Lord Custos Omega), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:18 (twenty-three years ago)

alex- you're not the first one and you won't be the last.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Seriously though, isn't the word "rock" too broad these days. Fuck every ninny from from Slayer to Air Supply calls themselves "rock".
I do think Joan has one small point in her favor: Repackaging Britney as a "rocker" does smell like ripe cheese. She should be proud of being a pop star. Theres no shame in it.
Just as long as doesn't start pretending shes Bob Dylan, we'll all be happy.

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Ew, imagine Bob Dylan bursting out of a burka.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Um, I don't have time to read this entire thread, but has anybody pointed out yet that "Hit Me Baby One More Time" and "Oops I Did It Again" DO rock? And that Pink and Shakira ARE rock artists? I mean, how exactly AREN'T they??? The best parts of Shakira's album rock as hard as almost any so-called "rock" band music to come out this year!

― chuck, Monday, 25 November 2002 19:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Ew, imagine Joan Jett with Bob Dylan's moustache.

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 19:42 (twenty-three years ago)

I did, Chuck. It's just that the open texture of the language allowed Alex NYC an out.

― dwh (dwh), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, I was going to ask in what possible way "Sk8er Boi" is less rock than "Little Liar". I have no idea what Joan Jett's done in the past decade at least. Why should she be included in a contemporary article on women in rock? So RS is using "rock" in a broad sense to refer to contemporary pop music. What's the big deal?

And the burqa does not symbolize a nation's or a religion's beliefs BTW. It is in no way comparable to a flag, which does more than that.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 25 November 2002 19:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh it "allowed" me an out, did it? Well, "PHEW" then!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 20:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Am I the ONLY one who read the post about this not being JJ?

Plus it's obvious that this is from an unconfirmed source (e-mail) just by the >'s in front of every line

― Curtis Stephens, Monday, 25 November 2002 20:59 (twenty-three years ago)

>>:[]

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 25 November 2002 21:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Just noticed that, Curtis.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 25 November 2002 21:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Although I think my points still stand.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 25 November 2002 21:20 (twenty-three years ago)

It's obvious Rolling Stone magazine has become painfully liberal in using the term "rock"...it was obvious when they put The Vines on the cover with a bold-face "Rock is Back!" cover, and became even more painfully obvious with a "Women of Rock" issue that featured the decidedly not-at-all-rocking Titney, Shakira, and Ashanti.

It was further compounded when I looked at the collective covers of Rolling Stone for the past 6 months or so and found only two actual honest-to-goodness "rockers"...The Vines (who barely rock at all) and Keef (who used to rock hard) amongst the barely clothed Xtina Aguileras and Jennifer Love Hugetits etc etc.

They might as well change the name of the magazine to "You Like To Look at Tits, and Music Is Not A Priority In Your Life, Otherwise You Would Have a Subscription to Spin".

― nickalicious, Monday, 25 November 2002 22:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Spin is hardly a magazine for those who care about music, nor has it been for about ten years.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:10 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/reallywild/ukwild/frogs/images/frogspawn.jpg

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:13 (twenty-three years ago)

is that thing wearing a burka s?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:18 (twenty-three years ago)

man, i got to this thread late. that's what i get for being in class all day.

you guys don't see a huge gender gap here in how "rock" is treated? regardless of whether you think pink or shakira "rock" (and i like pink and shakira.) who would rolling stone publish in a "guys who rock" issue? probably bands that consider themselves to be "rock bands," not, say, n*sync.

i'm not making a value judgment here on the merits of pop vs. rock. i just don't think that RS would have decided to treat the subject in nearly the same way if it had been a "men who rock" issue.

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:24 (twenty-three years ago)

That thing sure as hell ain't wearing any Dockers, much less pants.

― hstencil, Monday, 25 November 2002 22:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Since when does Jennifer Love Hewitt have huge breasts?

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:28 (twenty-three years ago)

The trouble is that there simply aren't that many high-profile women rockers, token Sleater-Kinney coverage notwithstanding. As always, it's radio's fault.

― B.Rad (Brad), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:33 (twenty-three years ago)

John D.: Your joke was (sufficiently) clear the first time.

P.S.: Why is a burqa like a writing desk?

― Chris Piuma, Monday, 25 November 2002 22:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Chris I do not know and I demand that you tell me: why is a burqa like a writing desk? If I had to guess, I'd say "Jesus," but am keen to learn the real answer.

― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Monday, 25 November 2002 22:49 (twenty-three years ago)

A: They both are large.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 25 November 2002 23:11 (twenty-three years ago)

You have to lift up the top before you stick your business in?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 25 November 2002 23:20 (twenty-three years ago)

dan, you have singlehandedly saved this thread.

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 25 November 2002 23:22 (twenty-three years ago)

You're going to hell, Perry.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 25 November 2002 23:26 (twenty-three years ago)

:…[]

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 25 November 2002 23:31 (twenty-three years ago)

*blushes, scuffs shoe* Aw, you guys!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 25 November 2002 23:33 (twenty-three years ago)

A genius move of awfulness. Dan is my hero!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 00:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, Dan wins it. Proof once again that I am no Lewis Carroll, and people will not spend a century trying to come up with a good answer to my non-sequitur riddles. Sigh!

So Dan, why is a raven like a writing desk?

― Chris P (Chris P), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 01:21 (twenty-three years ago)

I think my original answer still stands.

...What?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 03:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Re: Pink and Shakira do rock as does Joan Jett or as much as she does - they do have kind of 'heavy riffs' in their songs but that doesn't mean they 'rock,' I think 'rocking' means a kind of human act of complicity between band members or between artist and instrument and they aren't like that at all, they're products meant to sell.

― maryann (maryann), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 04:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Um, so, I guess I am not very postmodern and I do have a really vague notion that perhaps if I understood more about 'nature myths' and so on I wouldn't think what I just said above. And further to that point, it's telling that gay culture apparently rejects the idea of 'authentic' culture and to John Waters, Melanie Griffiths is a terrorist and etc. But then, gay men can afford to laugh at a bunch of young girls going nowhere.

But I do think that even an aura of human complicity or friendship can lend a lot to music, and that it's not very hard to detect when you're being used (especially because Britney and Pink are so obviously being used that one can't help but feel a subconscious sympathy for them - Britney and Christina, especially, look positively glazed and zombie-like). And nowadays we are all supposed to just accept that we're being used and find a way to make a joke out of it and get comfortable with it, because you should always look on the bright side, pop psych says and that sells, too. Surely that's the point 'Joan Jett' was trying to make, even if once she was one of the young girls - now she's old, she doesn't have access to the machinery, so whether by accident or design, she's 'authentic' and that's what rock music is to her (whoever the writer is).

― maryann (maryann), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 04:23 (twenty-three years ago)

So Dan, why is a raven like a writing desk?
Because one leg is both the same?

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 04:46 (twenty-three years ago)

As for that thing about tearing up the birkha (is it true?) - I agree with what Nabisco said, pretty stupidly inciteful. Like why doesn't America look at the plank in their own eye first - which probably pretty much IS Britney Spears.

― maryann (maryann), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 07:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Just to re-emphasise that yes, Shakira, Pink and Avril all do make rock records, at least intermittently. Frank K to thread to inform me as to whether 'rock' is a superword a la 'punk' - certainly a large amount of the usage here would suggest so.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 12:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, Shakira makes pop records and Pink makes soft-rock records (if you consider Pink "rock," then you'd have to consider Richard Marx "rock" too). Unless you consider "rock" one of those all-encompassing Elvis-and-everything-after superwords. I wrote a bit about this on my blog a few days ago, but I'm still not 100% sure how I feel.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 12:33 (twenty-three years ago)

And I consider Shakira more rock than Pink, but Shakira's not consistently "rock" enough to be classified as such.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 12:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Avril can be rock if it makes her happy.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 12:36 (twenty-three years ago)

"Avril can be rock if it makes her happy."

Wrong. No she can't, as her pretending to be rock makes me UNhappy. She wouldn't know ROCK if one fell on her (oh please, make it so!)

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 15:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Avril Lavinge is totally Power Pop.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 15:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Shakira kinda rocks, in a I-used-to-rock-until-I-started-singing-in-your-language kinda way.

― nickalicious, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 15:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Avril's records rock more than the 1 Killing Joke album I own Alex (though I may be confusing it with Swing!)

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 15:58 (twenty-three years ago)

Avril Lavinge is totally Power Pop.

No, power pop is good and enjoyable.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 16:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Lavinge

Every time I see it spelled this way (it's "Lavigne") I want to rhyme it with "whinge."

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 16:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Her real name is Levine, anyway. She's sold-out the Tribe, man.

Anybody see that NY Times article on her this Sunday? The stuff about her old manager was high-larious.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 16:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, have we sorted out yet the difference between "Shakira rocks" and "Shakira is a performer who plays rock music?" Because really, there is no pop equivalent to "[xxxx] rocks".

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 16:50 (twenty-three years ago)

joan jett popSoR u r all thant

― JJOG (mark s), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 16:52 (twenty-three years ago)

we're one step closer to the grand unified theory now, mark.

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Her real name is Levine, anyway. She's sold-out the Tribe, man.

Is this actually true, or just wishful thinking?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:02 (twenty-three years ago)

I heard it somewhere, but can't remember where. But yeah, I'd love it to be true.

Don't sell out the big J-h-v-, man (and I don't mean Jay-Z).

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Jewhoo says she's a "French Canadian Roman Catholic."

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:04 (twenty-three years ago)

It's really funny how so many people are trying to cut Avril down a few notches by creating this fictional Jewish identity that she's supposedly ashamed of.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

And by "really funny" I mean "vaguely anti-Semitic."

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh come on. Yeah, I'm out here hatin' the Hebrews on the intanet, just 'cause I repeated some bullshit rumor. Hey Jody, didn't you hear about the 2000 Jews who didn't show up to work on 9/11?

{/Amiri Baraka}

(Clarification: my ladyfriend is Jewish, a part of my family is too, so step off.)

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 17:50 (twenty-three years ago)

"Jewhoo"????

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Try this link. The one Jody posted took me to some Disney site (i.e. about as far away from Judaism as you can get).

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:03 (twenty-three years ago)

So Jody, what exactly would make Shakira more "consistently rock"? Louder guitars? Fewer ballads? A more stick-up-her-abundant-backside rhythm? Fewer middle-eastern melodies? A smaller butt? Less hair? If she wore Nazareth T-shirts instead of Scorpions T-shirts? If she would've convered Turbonegro and Electric Wizard instead of AC/DC and Aerosmith when I saw her live last week? If the Sabbath riffs her Tour of the Mongoose Madison Square Garden set opened to had been, I dunno, Sir Lord Baltimore riffs instead? Or if all the stations that play Nickelback and Creed songs added her to their playlist? I really wanna know. Seems to me people consider her "non-rock" because she's, like, Hispanic. Or because her music can be danced to, maybe? I don't get it. How exactly is she less consistently rock than, say, Pat Benatar was? Or would you say Benatar isn't rock either?

― chuck, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:08 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree with your points, Chuck, but on a side note:

Or because her music can be danced to, maybe?

Why, is rock music something you can't dance to? I can dance to it just fine.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:13 (twenty-three years ago)

You can dance to Creed and Nickelback? Not even I can do that, and I'm a DANCE GOD.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Creed and Nickelback do not rock, obv.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:21 (twenty-three years ago)

That was the most irritating part of the letter. Is the Pat Benetar hate. Real rock musicians do their own dancing.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:25 (twenty-three years ago)

The most irritating part of it for me is the whole enchilada. Esp. this whole "these women don't RAWK - but I'm a feminist" bullshit. Quit sniping on other women, you're not helping your cause much.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:27 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't understand - what is that plate of food doing up there?
In fact what the HELL IS ON THAT PLATE ?

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:29 (twenty-three years ago)

That would be the egg dish.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:31 (twenty-three years ago)

My point (which to me seemed obvious, but I guess hstencil didn't get it) was that part of what makes Shakira rock, in my book, is that you CAN dance to her. And part of what makes Creed and Nickelback (and the fucking Misfits, or whoever) LESS rock is that you (or, okay, I) *can't.* "Rock" is a verb that some implies *rhythm,* you know?

― chuck, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:32 (twenty-three years ago)

You can't dance to the Misfits? Damn!

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:33 (twenty-three years ago)

some = somehow

― chuck, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:33 (twenty-three years ago)

See, Chuck I was agreeing with you by way of being "facetious."

Although I do admit I really hate both sides of the "rock/dance" fence who claim the same thing: that you can't dance for rock (and that this makes rock either "good" or "bad").

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:35 (twenty-three years ago)

for = to, at least in my answer.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:36 (twenty-three years ago)

My problem with the Rolling Stone cover: That the mag's declaration of these women as rockers is an attempt to validate them, as if the music that they make and whatever tags are applied to it are not enough on their own. It carries the implication that only rock can be taken seriously as an artistic endeavor (or, to back up a bit, the only genre worth putting on a glossy cover), and it's a disservice to absolutely everyone involved. It's completely reductive to these artists... as if Pink was completely irrelevant before M!ssundaztood or something. Also, Rolling Stone's insistence that rock = a broad, all-encompassing term for popular music. I mean, some artists don't want to rock, but RS refuses to recognize that.

An odd thing as well: Having a "Women in Rock" issue carries the implication that most women do not rock, thus a special issue is warranted. Yet the actual issue pretty much covers every popular female artist of recent memory. It's an admission of how much RS typically overlooks ovaric artists more than anything.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:44 (twenty-three years ago)

well yeah, but that letter ain't an improvement.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:48 (twenty-three years ago)

So I guess a more interesting question to ask somebody at Rolling Stone would be: What popular female artists DON'T rock? (Maybe they'd say Celine Dion? Though even *that* would be wrong, sometimes. And if they said Leann Rimes or the Dixie Chicks or Shania -- all of whom rock way more than, say, Tori Amos or Bjork -- they'd be wrong, too.)

― chuck, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:51 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't think fat women rock, Chuck.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Fat bottom girls, they make the rockin' world go 'round!

I'm dead.

― Freddie Mercury, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:55 (twenty-three years ago)

How sarcastic is that answer supposed to be, Yancey?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:57 (twenty-three years ago)

From a Rolling Stone editorial standpoint, not sarcastic at all.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 18:59 (twenty-three years ago)

Waitaminute.....Chuck, are you suggesting that that which cannot be danced to is therefore NOT rock?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't worry Alex I've seen lots of Goths dancing to The Joke!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Goths "dancing"

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Goths dance all the time, Geeta. There's the taffy-pulling dance, the goth swirl, the cross-your-arms-put-your-hands-on-your-upper-chest-and-look-alone-and-tortured pirouette...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:27 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm suggesting that, all other factors which I don't have time to mention here being equal, that which cannot be danced to tends at least to be LESS rock than that which can be danced to.

― chuck, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Thanks Ned for proving my point!!

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Rock = "I know it when I see it, er, hear it."

― The Supreme Court, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:32 (twenty-three years ago)

I cannot dance, therefore I do not rock. Furthermore, my mama don't dance and my daddy don't rock'n'roll.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmm...for instance, AC/DC vs. Iron Maiden, which is more rock? (Actually, can you dance to IM?)

Thanks Ned for proving my point!!

I think it proves you don't know how to sway dramatically like a tree in the wind when the opening beats to "Alice" start up. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:35 (twenty-three years ago)

I cannot dance, therefore I do not rock. Furthermore, my mama don't dance and my daddy don't rock'n'roll.

You are a victim of bad genes.

AC/DC is more rock, 'cause they're better. And more danceable. (Maybe these are the same thing?)

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Maybe I cannot dance because my genes are too tight.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:45 (twenty-three years ago)

too tight genes = that's what you get when your dad marries her sister.

BTW, are you from Indiana?

Okay, I'll stop now.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 19:47 (twenty-three years ago)

Killing Joke are not GOTHS, goddammit!!!!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 21:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Rolling Stone uses the word "rock" as a synonym for "the music industry", whereas I use the word "rock" as a noun and verb pertaining to things that actually honest-to-God RAWK.

RAWK AND ROH!!!

― nickalicious, Tuesday, 26 November 2002 21:09 (twenty-three years ago)

...inform me as to whether 'rock' is a superword a la 'punk' - certainly a large amount of the usage here would suggest so.
Uh, yeah it is. If Punk is a "superword" than so is Rock, because all of Punk fits neatly under Rock. So does Metal, half of Pop and some of the (um...'edgier?') forms of Folk.

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 21:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Is "Little Liar" rock?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 26 November 2002 22:50 (twenty-three years ago)

What I want to know is...was VIXEN covered?

― Joe (Joe), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 00:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Killing Joke are not GOTHS, goddammit!!!!
They may not have a Goth sound, but they are beloved by all the Goths I know. Ergo, a Goth Fave. This is true of Tori Amos, Kate Bush, New Order, Kraftwerk and Depeche Mode. None of the above play Goth music per se, but they are part of the Goth Canon nonetheless.

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Wednesday, 27 November 2002 15:19 (twenty-three years ago)

As mentioned upthread, Joan didn't actually write that letter.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 18:24 (twenty-three years ago)

ten months pass...

Thought I'd revive this thread, as it appears the editors at RS have given some consideration to Ms. Price's criticisms in putting together the new "Women Who Rock" issue. Sleater-Kinney gets a full 3 pages this time around, and there's a nice feature on the always-charming and hugely underestimated Dolly Parton.

― Kevin Erickson, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Killing Joke are not GOTHS, goddammit!!!!
-- Alex in NYC (vassife...), November 26th, 2002.

Well I saw Killing Joke last tuesday and they
ROCKED!!!!

Though Jaz? Well, someone's dug up Tommy Cooper and dressed him as a comedy Goth. That's all I'm saying.

Geordie on the ther hand is the coolest man ever.

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I think you need some kind of visual aid in case Alex doesn't know who Tommy Cooper is. So, this is for Alex in NYC:

http://www.sb-photographies.com/musique/groupes/k/killing/killing2.jpg http://www.weirdity.com/oneliners/images/cooper1.jpg

Jaz, Tommy Cooper

― adaml (adaml), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"Goths dance all the time, Geeta. There's the taffy-pulling dance, the goth swirl, the cross-your-arms-put-your-hands-on-your-upper-chest-and-look-alone-and-tortured pirouette... "
there's one particular move that my friends and I refer to as the mime-explaining-that-(s)he's-lost-a-contact-and-proceeding-to-look-for-it step. it's fabulous.

― Felcher (Felcher), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Jaz is on the left.

He's a bit podgier now, and has his face painted white.
And a big black robe made of bits of bin liner etc. with a big green spider on the front.

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

god this thread got funny!

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

maura is the best damn thing about ilm.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Di is OTM.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Hurrah for Maura!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

there's one particular move that my friends and I refer to as the mime-explaining-that-(s)he's-lost-a-contact-and-proceeding-to-look-for-it step. it's fabulous.

on what planet is this a dance move?!?!

― geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 05:50 (twenty-two years ago)

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Joan Jett's Open Letter to Rolling Stone (Women in Rock - Feh)