ABBA or Steely Dan - you are compelled to choose one

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You must choose

Poll Results

OptionVotes
Steely Dan 83
ABBA 82


Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 01:34 (three years ago) link

the dan but this was hard

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 01:39 (three years ago) link

“Singing Voulez Voulez Voulez vous”

calstars, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 01:47 (three years ago) link

The Dan but it wasn't hard at all.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:08 (three years ago) link

I’m not aware of having heard a song by Steely Dan.

Canon in Deez (silby), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:09 (three years ago) link

you gotta go back jack and do it again

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:10 (three years ago) link

ABBA had some tunes

i don't like the idea of steely dan

die britain die (Left), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:21 (three years ago) link

arrival to the visitors is a hell of an albums run

as is say countdown to ecstasy to gaucho (can't buy a thrill included or excluded depending on how much of a freak you are)

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:27 (three years ago) link

But how is the idea of it?

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:28 (three years ago) link

Love them both, they would have been some of the first records I brought into the house as a young teen. Steely Dan was more consistent and had better lyrics and got my vote.

Can't Buy a Thrill seems to me like their most conventional Classic Rock album, with two big radio hits, what's so freaky about that?

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:33 (three years ago) link

so clearly ABBA the comparison doesn't even really make sense

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:39 (three years ago) link

but I feel that way about Sade vs Steely Dan too

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:39 (three years ago) link

They love the sound of words, an instrument's ability to produce beautiful notes, a producer's talent of knowing how many beautiful notes the ear can stand.

A draw.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:41 (three years ago) link

what's so freaky about that?

― Halfway there but for you, Monday, March 8, 2021 7:33 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

having an alternate lead singer is pretty freaky in my book

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:48 (three years ago) link

i do love it and am a freak and should've just included it in the span

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:48 (three years ago) link

True, it's also weird that the "lead singer" only sings two songs, like on Fleetwood Mac's Penguin.

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 02:59 (three years ago) link

i know a lot of ppl for whom "dirty work" is the only dan song they can tolerate

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 03:05 (three years ago) link

I wonder if there are any Steely Dan fans who dislike Fagen's singing? Maybe musos who regard it as the weak link in an otherwise technically perfect package?

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 03:30 (three years ago) link

I know a lot of Sotos for whom "Dirty Work" is the only Stones song they can tolerate.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 03:31 (three years ago) link

can’t buy a thrill is pretty much flawless

brimstead, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 04:24 (three years ago) link

went for the band with the alternate lead singers. been a while since we had a poll this easy

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 06:04 (three years ago) link

abba is for true freaks from outer space

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 06:16 (three years ago) link

It was really sporting of the boys in ABBA to keep on showing up to stuff

Canon in Deez (silby), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 06:21 (three years ago) link

The Dan but it wasn't hard at all.

Same here.

birdistheword, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 06:21 (three years ago) link

Steely Dan aren't half as well known or popular in the UK and Europe so this poll might be an east/West divide

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 07:31 (three years ago) link

I've been especially enamoured with ABBA's "I Am The City" lately. Not many songs out there about literally BEING a city

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 07:33 (three years ago) link

if this is too lopsided i will blame america

nothing (Left), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 08:19 (three years ago) link

I'm always making the case for ABBA as an album first listening experience. Several super strong albums.

abcfsk, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 08:26 (three years ago) link

steely dan fans often seem to have a habit of describing the band in ways that make them sound singularly unappealing- not by mistake or as a gatekeeping move, but as a sincere point of recommendation. there is something to admire in that

there are ways to make abba sound as horrible but not so many fans would choose those ways. some seem to even want to downplay anything too weird or specific in favour of boring faux populist / universalist cliches

nothing (Left), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 08:47 (three years ago) link

I like Steely Dan but this is no kind of contest.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 09:08 (three years ago) link

I'm most often shunted into the goth corner of shame when I express distaste for ABBA. The Dan 4ever.

Ward Fowler, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 10:02 (three years ago) link

I'd say Arrival and The Visitors are as precise and in places terrifying as the best Steely Dan albums.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 10:47 (three years ago) link

xp I was thinking about the overhanging sense of Nordic doom pervasive in a lot of ABBA's songs and chord structures

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 10:55 (three years ago) link

Though, lest we forget, "Dum Dum Diddle" is on "Arrival".

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 11:08 (three years ago) link

Yes, I think one thing ABBA and Steely Dan have in common is that the darkness in their songs is now slightly overstated, in compensation for them long being described as 'bland'.

Ward Fowler, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 12:22 (three years ago) link

maybe, but there are few non-metal/goth/whatever acts that i simultaneously enjoy but would also describe as "dismal" as ABBA.

you're OTM though. ABBA used to be synonymous with campy pop fluff for years, but they've been reframed in more recent times so the typical defense is a kneejerk "but-but-but actually they're REALLY DARK"!

The answer really is, why not both? Dancing Queen is a dancefloor filler AND a längtan paean to youth. That's why they're good

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 12:33 (three years ago) link

ABBA all day

SQUIRREL MEAT!! (Capitaine Jay Vee), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 12:43 (three years ago) link

Well, not really. But I voted ABBA. Could never get with The Dan.

SQUIRREL MEAT!! (Capitaine Jay Vee), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 12:43 (three years ago) link

ABBA. I have listened to two Steely Dan records, but cant remember anything apart from being a bit bored.

Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 12:45 (three years ago) link

i genuinely don't know who's going to win here

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:04 (three years ago) link

I'd be suprised if Steely Dan didn't win but I invariably get polls wrong.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:06 (three years ago) link

We could poll Steely Dan vs. sex and it would be a toss-up

stimmy stimmy yah (Simon H.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:12 (three years ago) link

Curious about this supposed dark undertone in abba

calstars, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:12 (three years ago) link

xp sex didn’t make gaucho

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:19 (three years ago) link

well, not directly

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:19 (three years ago) link

Curious about this supposed dark undertone in abba

The song is about a woman who quietly longs for the affections of a sad, lonely man who derives his only pleasure from constantly playing and practicing on his violin. The Guardian described it as "a song about a woman who feels sexually threatened by her partner's violin".[3]

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:22 (three years ago) link

Dan

J. Sam, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:24 (three years ago) link

Dan Dan Diddle

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:25 (three years ago) link

Dan. Don't really get ABBA.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 13:52 (three years ago) link

Curious about this supposed dark undertone in abba

― calstars, Tuesday, March 9, 2021 6:12 AM (fifty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

“happy new year”

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 14:06 (three years ago) link

Have you heard ABBA?

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 14:07 (three years ago) link

I neither love nor outright dislike either band but if choose I must I’m going with the dildo.

pomenitul, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 14:08 (three years ago) link

ABBA could do "Everyone's Gone to the Movies" but Dan couldn't do "Two for the Price of One"

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 14:10 (three years ago) link

wow pretty much every adult character in dennis cooper’s george miles cycle is the protagonist of “everyone’s gone to the movies”

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 14:12 (three years ago) link

god arrival is the best album, cf. "that's me"

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 14:59 (three years ago) link

That keyboard part invented house music.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 14:59 (three years ago) link

Arrival is so good, often eclipsed by The Visitors in terms of critical praise.

The latter is great, obviously, but I find it hard not to imagine it without the bonus tracks - especially "Should I Laugh Or Cry", "I Am The City", "Under Attack", "The Day Before You Came", all of which are A+ ABBA and make the main album feel a bit slight without them.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:12 (three years ago) link

the visitors is a fine harrowing album without the post-album singles, one of my favorites of all time. those singles are the absolute best abba songs ever tho

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:15 (three years ago) link

I had to double check if SILOC isn't on there. I'd got so used to hearing the album with these songs on the end in digital that when I finally found a decently priced copy of the vinyl and got it home it felt rather slight. I take it those songs were written after The Visitors was finalised? The certy keepers off the main album for me are the title track, Soldiers and One Of Us (that bassline!) but I'd happily swap out some of the rest for those singles.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:26 (three years ago) link

Front to back best catalog: ABBA
Front to back total stone cold classics: ABBA
Band with member accused of abusing a spouse: Steely Dan

voting ABBA

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:28 (three years ago) link

and yes, those are the best ABBA songs.

Having a bit of an ABBA afternoon now. I know Visitors, Arrival and Super Trouper best in that order.

"My Love, My Life" is incredible. "I'm A Marionette" is trv kvlt metal. The disco numbers on Voulez-Vous sparkle hard.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:29 (three years ago) link

the best Abba songs for me are earlier: “Dancing Queen”, “The Name Of The Game”, “Knowing Me, Knowing You”

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:40 (three years ago) link

"it's maaaaagic" [synth cluster]

^^^ this moment may be worth the whole dan catalog. hm

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:44 (three years ago) link

"Name Of The Game" is amazingly good. I'm not sure what even kind of style of music you call that?

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:50 (three years ago) link

Like, it's got this reggae lope but it's kind of funk but it's not either of those

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:50 (three years ago) link

no question about it, brad

xps

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:51 (three years ago) link

"the name of the game" has such a long chorus and every part of it is thrilling

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:52 (three years ago) link

"Name Of The Game" is amazingly good. I'm not sure what even kind of style of music you call that?

― Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, March 9, 2021 10:50 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Like, it's got this reggae lope but it's kind of funk but it's not either of those

― Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin),

For a while it left me cold b/c I couldn't figure out what they intended rhythmically; then I realized it's exactly what you pointed out.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:53 (three years ago) link

You really need to hear the LP version of that, otherwise the whole song is one verse, then two very extended choruses in a row.

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:57 (three years ago) link

The bassline that opens "The Name of the Game" might have been inspired by the same in Parliament's "All Your Goodies Are Gone".

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:58 (three years ago) link

I think it was among the very first songs I ever heard. I had some sort of children's record with covers of kid-friendly popular songs from a few years before, "Name of the Game", "In the Navy" etc. But even as a small child I found that gloopy caramel bass groove really hypnotic

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 15:59 (three years ago) link

it also fits perfectly with the lyrics - tentative is the name of this here game

xp to Alfred

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:01 (three years ago) link

Some potential topics:

Walter Becker/David Palmer/Jim Hodder vs Bjorn Ulvaeus as secondary singers?
Steely Dan Greatest Hits (1978) vs ABBA The Singles: The First Ten Years (1982)?
"East St. Louis Toodle-oo" vs "Pick a Bale of Cotton Medley" (the only covers either band recorded)?
Early Becker/Fagen demos vs early pre-ABBA recordings?

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:10 (three years ago) link

The bassline that opens "The Name of the Game" might have been inspired by the same in Parliament's "All Your Goodies Are Gone".

The intro makes me think of a 10cc song whenever I hear it, and always has, but I can never remember which 10cc song. It is in fact the intro to "The Dean and I".

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:13 (three years ago) link

fagen and becker are my favorite lyricists of all time but i find it hard to say that abba's syntactical delights aren't like...nearly as wonderful to me

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:14 (three years ago) link

(xp) But, listening to them now, I think it's the groove rather than the notes.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:15 (three years ago) link

ILM's intense Steely Dan standom has been a mystery to me for over fifteen years now.

Stefan Twerkelle (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:23 (three years ago) link

I don't think it's an ILM thing? They've always been highly respected by both critics and musicians.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:30 (three years ago) link

Am I wrong in thinking they're a lot, lot bigger in the US muso-sphere than anywhere else?

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:32 (three years ago) link

The UK Danatics I know are musicians and very muso-ish musicians too.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:34 (three years ago) link

Proggers in fact.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:34 (three years ago) link

As I remember they were especially popular in Glasgow with all those Hue & Cry/Hipsway/ Love & Money sort of bands and musicians. Deacon Blue, of course!

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:38 (three years ago) link

There are a few Steely Dan songs, all early ones I think, that get regular classic rock rotation. The love of Aja etc possibly more of a muso/critic thing, though.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:44 (three years ago) link

Nah. Aja is their best-selling album in America, actually. One of the first platinum-certified albums.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:49 (three years ago) link

the one dan record that seems to have no radio life whatsoever at this point is katy lied. what a shame. make radio creepier

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:51 (three years ago) link

I don't stan them but I do like a lot of SD and prefer them to ABBA by a pretty wide margin.

I wonder if there are any Steely Dan fans who dislike Fagen's singing? Maybe musos who regard it as the weak link in an otherwise technically perfect package?

His singing might be my favourite part. Very wry and expressive. I'd probably find them too smooth and safe without it. Their version of "East St. Louis Toodle-oo", mentioned above, feels almost embarrassingly refined compared to the original Ellington recording.

xps OK there you go

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:53 (three years ago) link

the one dan record that seems to have no radio life whatsoever at this point is katy lied. what a shame. make radio creepier

― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, March 9, 2021 11:51 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

they don't even need to make it creepier if they would just play "bad sneakers"

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:54 (three years ago) link

Do you take me for a fool
Do you think that I don't see
That ditch out in the valley
That they're digging just for me

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:55 (three years ago) link

The UK Danatics I know are musicians and very muso-ish musicians too.

― Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, March 9, 2021 11:34 AM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i'd say even in the u.s. someone is more likely to enjoy the dan if they seriously play an instrument

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 16:57 (three years ago) link

I thought "Black Friday" was a radio staple

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:10 (three years ago) link

it might be but i hear it much much less than "rikki" or "kid charlemagne" at this point

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:14 (three years ago) link

this is all anecdotal so i could be wrong

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:16 (three years ago) link

The ones I always hear are "Rikki", "Do It Again", and "Reelin' in the Years". Sometimes "Hey Nineteen".xps "Kid Charlemagne" is my favourite SD song but I never hear it on rock radio. Does it get played on other formats?

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:16 (three years ago) link

i could swear i've heard "kid charlemagne" in the wild more than a few times. maybe it was satellite radio lol

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:17 (three years ago) link

"if it wasn't for the nights" is the best song ever made

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:20 (three years ago) link

Their only UK hit was "Haitian Divorce", which wasn't even released as a single in the US.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:20 (three years ago) link

Aja was #5 on the 1977 Pazz & Jop: https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres77.php. Glowing RS review from the time: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/aja-204565/

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:25 (three years ago) link

"if it wasn't for the nights" is the best song ever made

― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson),

It's like someone said, "Okay, guys, I want you to write a NBC sitcom theme."

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:26 (three years ago) link

Re: Steely Dan, I first saw them in 2015 at a summer ampitheater show. The second and last show I saw (at a smaller indoor theater) was actually good, but this one wasn't - Becker was probably drunk given his stage patter and he fumbled most of his solos. But outside of that, it wasn't an exciting show. It was like they were pandering to classic rock radio listeners by doing the "hits" and going through the motions, and a lot of people were eating it up. I forgot the song - I want to say it was "Daddy Don't Live in that New York City" - but out of nowhere Fagen says they were going to try something different, and they completely re-arrange a track from Katy Lied - the risk (or rather the musical choices) worked and it was glorious. I had the fleeting thought that THIS was the shit they should be doing - how can you worship all of those Miles Davis concerts from the late '60s and not take a few risks of your own when you hit the stage? I got my answer right away when a guy (who was actually nice enough to buy me a drink when I saved his spot) began screaming at the top of his lungs "THAT SUCKED!" along with several forgotten profanities before walking out with his wife. So ever since then, I've been curious about their audience, because a lot of what I've loved about the band is tied to the jazz in their music, but maybe a lot of their listeners only want to hear the records re-created on stage?

birdistheword, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:37 (three years ago) link

His singing might be my favourite part. Very wry and expressive. I'd probably find them too smooth and safe without it. Their version of "East St. Louis Toodle-oo", mentioned above, feels almost embarrassingly refined compared to the original Ellington recording.

Thinking about this, I'm wondering if what makes them distinctive is the fusion of the post-Dylan singer-songwriter aesthetic with 'inside' jazz-pop. Joni Mitchell did a similar thing around the same time ofc.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:39 (three years ago) link

I saw them billed as Becker and Fagen back in the 90s, and it was a similar greatest hits show that rarely hit its stride. The full album concerts they did in more recent years sound a lot more fun.

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:40 (three years ago) link

I first saw them in 2015 at a summer ampitheater show.

I did too. Elvis Costello opened.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:41 (three years ago) link

I do rate Joni's efforts higher and think she was a lot more interested in pushing the envelope, musically.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:43 (three years ago) link

I like a couple of ABBA songs ("SOS", "Fernando" esp). I find them almost quaint to hear these days, like it's bizarre to think they used to practically be a metonym for glossy Top 40 pop music, even in the earliest ILM days. I don't know that I hear more ABBA than Steely Dan in today's pop music.

What prompted the comparison, dog latin?

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:50 (three years ago) link

I was going to say earlier that ime major Steely Dan fans are almost always major Joni Mitchell fans too.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:51 (three years ago) link

I saw them billed as Becker and Fagen back in the 90s, and it was a similar greatest hits show that rarely hit its stride. The full album concerts they did in more recent years sound a lot more fun.

The other show I saw was an album concert. I only went because a friend who's a massive Aja fan really wanted to catch that show. Becker was whimsical but sober - HUGE difference, all of his solos were good. I don't think they changed the arrangements - there may have been one track where did they did - but it didn't matter because a few of them had much longer solos, and those were generally excellent. The album clocks in a hair under 40 minutes, and that part of the show wound up being an hour plus, so the musicians really did stretch out.

birdistheword, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:53 (three years ago) link

i caught the gaucho show at the beacon and it was truly great hearing those songs, which usually don’t make it into the set

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 17:58 (three years ago) link

I was going to say earlier that ime major Steely Dan fans are almost always major Joni Mitchell fans too.

True for me, but I'm actually not as taken by her excursions into jazz. I think the jazz-pop arrangements on Court and Spark work well - I generally hate L.A. Express's own work but that album's great, I love it. Then again, I've never liked the Mingus album all that much - I like that she took those chances and there are a few cuts that do sound good to me, but a lot of it is really disappointing.

birdistheword, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:03 (three years ago) link

what about the albums between C&S and Mingus?

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:06 (three years ago) link

I don't know that I hear more ABBA than Steely Dan in today's pop music.

This mostly to do with the loss of popularity of shiny hyper-melodic pop after several decades of Hip-Hop and R&B consuming the mainstream, no? I think it's easy to see ABBA as the model for Kylie or Max Martin era pop, thing is these days that doesn't get much more popular than Carly Rae Jepsen.

I'm thinking dog latin chose these two because they are both untouchable, goes-without-saying icons for certain audiences.

Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:10 (three years ago) link

What prompted the comparison, dog latin?

― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, March 9, 2021 5:50 PM (twenty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink(

Oh it was part of some silly Facebook thread on a friend's feed about musical opinions. I said ABBA were better songwriters than 80% of rock music ever since, which now I'm thinking of revising to 95% or more. Someone piped up and mentioned Steely Dan and I thought "That's actually a great comparison". Similar time period, two extraordinary key songwriters, a studio session approach to songwriting, loved and hated in equal measure for their approach to their craft etc.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:26 (three years ago) link

That's definitely part of it but even Max Martin/Dr Luke pop doesn't sound much like ABBA to me: I can see how "hyper-melodic" describes ABBA but something like Katy Perry's "Hot n Cold" is extremely limited melodically and even harmonically compared to "Dancing Queen" (let alone "SOS"). "Dancing Queen" is pretty much straight-up functional harmony, with a secondary dominant, deceptive resolutions, and authentic cadence in the chorus. A lot of contemporary pop is way more modal. Do any millennial pop writers still write lyrics like "Fernando"?xp

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:27 (three years ago) link

Sorry, the ii-V-I resolution is really going into the chorus.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:31 (three years ago) link

birdistheword, that story of the spectator yelling at the stage reminds me of some of Fagen's complaints from Eminent Hipsters about "TV babies" at his shows who are unwilling to listen to anything they haven't heard before.

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:34 (three years ago) link

Super Trouper is a stunning album. I mean their three last albums all definitely belong in the ABBA top tier together with Arrival, and I wouldn't put Arrival on the very top.

abcfsk, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:51 (three years ago) link

I've heard maybe two ABBA songs in my life, and I'd go back and fix that if I could.

but also fuck you (unperson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 18:53 (three years ago) link

SD, easy decision. I'd genuinely enjoy hearing them improv and rework tracks from their catalog. Never been a "give me the studio version, but LIVE!" concertgoer. It's the mistakes and the variations that make a concert worthwhile. I still remember the Furs touring with a saxophonist and how that elevated "Sleep Comes Down".

the body of a spider... (scampering alpaca), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 19:01 (three years ago) link

LOL "TV babies"

The Hissing of Summer Lawns and Hejira are really good. Summer Lawns is probably the best example of Mitchell taking greater risks than most of her peers, and I think it shows that she really knew what she was doing too (i.e. she wasn't merely slathering on someone else's ideas or trying some musical ideas she barely got to know herself). I'm not that familiar with how she created those albums, so I can't say I'm right about that, but that's what it sounds like to me. Coyote sounds like a more measured experiment, but nothing wrong with that - I think stripping down the instrumentation meant concentrating more on a few elements and getting more mileage out of those areas, and the results are great. Jaco Pastorius was an inspired choice, he does an excellent job of doing more than what you'd expect from a bass player (at least on a pop record) while doing it with great sensitivity for the songs. I like some of the stuff on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, but a lot it sounds overburdened by ideas. It's hard to say whether some parts aren't fully developed or if all the disparate elements aren't coming together in a wholly successful way. It's never going to be a favorite but I have a lot of respect for it because if it is a failure, it's because Mitchell is taking a lot of chances and didn't want to settle for what she's already done before, and that generally drives her best work.

birdistheword, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 19:50 (three years ago) link

another point in ABBA's favor:

gimme x3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hung up

but

eye know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peg

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 19:51 (three years ago) link

That feels more like a point in Dan's favor. I actually like "Hung Up" but if there's only room enough for two, I'd rather live in a world where someone inspires "Eye Know" rather than "Hung Up."

birdistheword, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 19:54 (three years ago) link

for ONE, not two

birdistheword, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 19:54 (three years ago) link

hmm, I guess. then again, "gimme" is the only thing I really like about "hung up" while "peg" is maybe the eighth best part of "eye know."

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:01 (three years ago) link

One difference between Joni Mitchell and Steely Dan is that almost all of her songs are based around her guitar or piano parts, played by her, with accompaniment by a band or a couple of instrumentalists. Becker and Fagen only played occasional instrumental parts after 1974, so the tempos, arrangements and hooks were much more variable depending on who they brought in to play the songs. She obviously paid attention to arrangements too, but there was always the bedrock of her part as the centre of the recordings.

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:01 (three years ago) link

"Hung Up" is one of the greatest singles of the last twenty years and I prefer it to "Gimme"

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:03 (three years ago) link

Becker and Fagen only played occasional instrumental parts after 1974, so the tempos,

I don't wanna niggle, but it's not quite true. Fagen was more apt to cede his parts, but if you check those albums after 1974 he handles a majority of the keyboards. Becker played more lead guitar than bass in later years too.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:04 (three years ago) link

That's definitely part of it but even Max Martin/Dr Luke pop doesn't sound much like ABBA to me

I actually came here to post that the thread makes an interesting connection between *Steely Dan* and Max Martin pop, in terms of the studio perfectionism, microscopic precision, division of labor with key roles delegated to 'specialists'

Adoration of the Mogwai (Deflatormouse), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:04 (three years ago) link

i would write a book about the backing vocal harmonies in "one of us"

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:10 (three years ago) link

the vocal arrangements on the visitors are so good they even singlehandedly elevate "two for the price of one" (which is the only song on the record that isn't a total knockout imo, even though it's still good)

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:11 (three years ago) link

(and funny, a nice bit of levity on a really sad album)

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:11 (three years ago) link

Maybe, Alfred, but both Fagen and Becker were more apt to add guitar or synth solos to already recorded tracks than provide the backbone of the song like she did, and it makes a difference in the arrangements.

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:11 (three years ago) link

did you know Madonna covered (I think) "Slipping Through My Fingers"?

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:12 (three years ago) link

Maybe, Alfred, but both Fagen and Becker were more apt to add guitar or synth solos to already recorded tracks than provide the backbone of the song like she did, and it makes a difference in the arrangements.

― Halfway there but for you,

Fair.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:12 (three years ago) link

Do any of the ABBA superfans see the big gulf between the hits and the album tracks that I do? I'd say there's no more than one or two fine "deep tracks" per LP, and some that are real lapses in taste.

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:15 (three years ago) link

absolutely not, you're wrong

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:16 (three years ago) link

It's the name of the game.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:17 (three years ago) link

7 of super trouper's tracks were released as singles, and not one of them was the resplendent "me & i"

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:18 (three years ago) link

otoh The Visitors' title track slaps as an opener and is one of their best, period.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:19 (three years ago) link

i think there's prob at least one weaker track per great abba lp but it's not a gulf

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:20 (three years ago) link

One difference between Joni Mitchell and Steely Dan is that almost all of her songs are based around her guitar or piano parts

many dan songs, even in the later era, did start life as piano-and-vocal demos, which provided the structure/backbone that inspired the arrangements.

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:20 (three years ago) link

the only deep cut that really interrupted things for me was "the king has lost his crown" from voulez-vous; some abba fan itt pls defend that song to me

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:21 (three years ago) link

many dan songs, even in the later era, did start life as piano-and-vocal demos, which provided the structure/backbone that inspired the arrangements.

― caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, March 9, 2021 1:20 PM (thirty-six seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah i was gonna say you cannot rip fagen's piano out of most dan songs

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:22 (three years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htziQt0pCAQ

one of the best songs ever, surely they knew it even though it wasn't a single

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:24 (three years ago) link

Fagen obviously came up with chord voicings etc., but Michael Omartian was playing most of the piano even as early as Pretzel Logic, also Victor Feldman, Paul Griffin on later records.

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:25 (three years ago) link

I don't know anything about who plays on those ABBA albums. Did they have regulars? An array of session nerds? European, American, or all over?

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:26 (three years ago) link

Fagen obviously came up with chord voicings etc., but Michael Omartian was playing most of the piano even as early as Pretzel Logic, also Victor Feldman, Paul Griffin on later records.

― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, March 9, 2021 1:25 PM (twenty-four seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

i mean in terms of what was recorded sure

if your point is that the dan recorded differently than joni mitchell, then yes

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:26 (three years ago) link

there's plenty of evidence that most dan songs started similarly to those mitchell songs–embellishment upon a solo performance (almost always fagen on his piano). it goes beyond chord voicings, think of how many post-74 dan songs are built around a central piano riff: "gaucho," "home at last," "sign in stranger," "kid charlemagne," "any world that i'm welcome to," etc.

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:38 (three years ago) link

I mean, someone's gotta record demos to teach that world-class band, right?

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:42 (three years ago) link

slipping through my fingers all the time
i try to capture every minute
the feeling in it
slipping through my fingers all the time

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:43 (three years ago) link

Talking piano, I'd say Benny Andersson's playing is central to ABBA's appeal!

Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:45 (three years ago) link

I don't know anything about who plays on those ABBA albums. Did they have regulars? An array of session nerds? European, American, or all over?

An entirely Swedish operation.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 20:46 (three years ago) link

"Hung Up" is one of the greatest singles of the last twenty years and I prefer it to "Gimme"

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, March 9, 2021 12:03 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is wrong because "Hung Up" doesn't have the descending vocal harmonies in the chorus toward the end, which have legit sent chills up my spine before.

it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 21:15 (three years ago) link

This is the hardest TS poll i've ever participated in.

ABBA.

it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table), Tuesday, 9 March 2021 21:16 (three years ago) link

Talking piano, I'd say Benny Andersson's playing is central to ABBA's appeal!

I'd say musically, it's almost exclusively their appeal. I mean, as far as musical shorthand goes, ABBA-like piano is really all it takes to bring them to mind.

Not saying the rest of the playing is bad or anything, just not sure what I would think of if someone said "ABBA-like bass" or "ABBA-like drums." But piano? I know exactly what that sounds like.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 21:37 (three years ago) link

Talking piano

You really are British!

pomenitul, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 21:38 (three years ago) link

Tack piano, on the other hand, is very American, and immediately evocative of cowboys. (#onethread)

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 21:39 (three years ago) link

Worth mentioning that ABBA were an incredible live act as well. Fun and casual, but totally accomplished and entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r27l_PsXDpQ

everything, Tuesday, 9 March 2021 21:57 (three years ago) link

Dan 4 lyfe
Abba are the kings of schmaltz and their lyrics are middle school poetry

calstars, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 00:24 (three years ago) link

Thanks. I agree those are compliments.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 00:31 (three years ago) link

This thread's got me imagining an alternate timeline version of Muriel's Wedding wherein her obsession is with the Dan.

"Kid Charlemagne" is the talent show song.

"what are you DOING to fleetwood mac??" (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 00:41 (three years ago) link

I'd watch that. Speaking of dark undertone ABBA, Muriel's Wedding was way sadder than I remembered, on last viewing.

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 04:20 (three years ago) link

What would the Steely Dan Mamma Mia be called?

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 04:21 (three years ago) link

Steely Dan, easy.

To be honest, I've never really gotten into ABBA. In fact, I'm not sure I ever actually heard ABBA before I was in my 20s, with the exception of Erasure's cover of "Take a Chance on Me." Now I know the big singles at least, but they still seem kind of mysterious to me.

jaymc, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 04:53 (three years ago) link

XP Probably Hey Nineteen. It would be about a roller-skating 19 year old trying to figure out which washed-up cokehead at Dan Tanna's is her biological father.

"what are you DOING to fleetwood mac??" (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 05:30 (three years ago) link

I find it weird to imagine not having heard Mamma Mia, Waterloo, SOS, Dancing Queen, Gimme Gimme Gimme, Voulez-Vous etc. These were songs in the general ether for me growing up through the 80s and 90s in the UK, played at weddings, school discos, referenced in TV shows, on the radio. They were all just there, like Beatles songs or famous showtunes that people know even though they've never seen the show.
By comparison, I had to actively seek out Steely Dan albums in my mid 20s to find out what they sounded like after reading about them on ILM,and I couldn't tell you which of the songs are the hits. Other than that, it was Super Furry's "The Man Dont Give A Fuck" which was the only prior reference for me.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 08:25 (three years ago) link

Next, Status Quo or Grand Funk Railroad.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 08:29 (three years ago) link

Already covered to an extent and I know it's been said before, but ABBA and SD both probably the ideal 70s exemplar of the "critics accidentally revealing their greatness through negative criticism" model

Master of Treacle, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 09:29 (three years ago) link

I couldn't tell you which of the songs are the hits.

probably before your time, dog latin, (it's from 1983), but this is how popular "Do It Again" was/is - this was a big hit in continental Europe and reached #11 in the UK and even #75 in the US:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxlJKsrG1qk
Club House • Do It Again Medley with Billie Jean

(it features Silver Pozzoli on vocals, italo heads!)

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 11:37 (three years ago) link

ABBA by miles.

hamicle, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 12:12 (three years ago) link

Already covered to an extent and I know it's been said before, but ABBA and SD both probably the ideal 70s exemplar of the "critics accidentally revealing their greatness through negative criticism" model

Unless you mean like early Pitchfork, I'm not even sure what negative criticism Steely Dan received. They were darlings of rock critics: Pretzel Logic #2 in P&J, Katy Lied and the Royal Scam #6, Aja #5.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 12:45 (three years ago) link

These were songs in the general ether for me growing up through the 80s and 90s in the UK, played at weddings, school discos, referenced in TV shows, on the radio.

ABBA are not underexposed or difficult to hear in North America, tbc.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 12:52 (three years ago) link

Yeah, criticism of Steely Dan didn't really take off until the "grunge era", not to say that they were a favourite of punks.

What two songs are the closest between the two acts? I'll say "The Fez" and "Voulez-Vous".

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 12:54 (three years ago) link

(it features Silver Pozzoli on vocals, italo heads!)

― Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Wednesday, March 10, 2021 11:37 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Silver Pozzoli! <3

Yeah, I listened to the Dan version of this only yesterday and it rang a faint bell. But I couldn't tell you where I might have heard it - certainly not at a wedding or a student disco, not like Mamma Mia or Dancing Queen (admittedly not my fave ABBA songs by any stretch, but still)

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:04 (three years ago) link

Is a student disco like a school dance?

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:05 (three years ago) link

Yes.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:06 (three years ago) link

Sorry, no, it's university not school!

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:06 (three years ago) link

I think both bands got a fair amount of flack (and continue to in certain quarters) for their perceived classicist approach to pop making. ABBA, especially, when I was growing up, were seen as kitsch Euro-trash, mum'n'dad music, antithetical to the romantic punk idylls. It's rockism, essentially.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:06 (three years ago) link

I don't think that's true of Steely Dan, as has been said, they've always been critical darlings.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:09 (three years ago) link

ABBA, definitely. I've never actually seen much negative criticism of Steely Dan. xp

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:12 (three years ago) link

I mean, my wife doesn't like them.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:12 (three years ago) link

Didn't we have a thread long ago discussing an article that went on about something along the lines of "Why did we fight the punk wars if Steely Dan are going to be the new hipster crush?"? I can't find the thread, but I definitely remember it.

There's also that scene in Knocked Up where the two main characters play-out a for/against argument about the merits of Steely Dan

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:22 (three years ago) link

That thread title always seemed a bit misguided to me.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:23 (three years ago) link

Anybody strongly taking one side against the other here is wrong, soz

A bot scamping on a human face, forever (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:26 (three years ago) link

Yeah that was an early Pfork piece. I don't think it was v representative, though. I remember alt bugbears being more like Rush or Van Halen. And iirc the pro-Dan argument in that scene was coming from a music industry guy arguing against a pothead random.:P
2xp

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:29 (three years ago) link

Like, the Rogen character was a protagonist but I don't recall that he was meant to be particularly knowledgeable or invested in music.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:32 (three years ago) link

that thread title came from p4k’s review of two against nature, and there definitely was mainstream backlash against the dan for their grammy win over eminem and radiohead.

the indie scene was still in thrall to the punk mindset around that time, and anything as fussy and meticulous as steely dan was bound to come across as uncool.

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 13:55 (three years ago) link

That thread title always seemed a bit misguided to me.

― Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, March 10, 2021 1:23 PM (thirty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Misguided, yes, but it still seemed indicative of an opinion I sometimes hear occasionally about Steely Dan, that they're a bit schmaltzy, classicist, over-produced, not "punk" enough

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:02 (three years ago) link

Schmaltzy is about the last word I would use to describe Steely Dan. Who on earth still goes on about stuff not being punk enough?

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:06 (three years ago) link

the indie scene was still in thrall to the punk mindset around that time, and anything as fussy and meticulous as steely dan was bound to come across as uncool.

Yes, this. It's hard to imagine now, but attitudes towards music back then were different to how they are now. ABBA and SD don't need this "But, but, but listen guys they're actually GOOD!" preamble any more, whereas even in 2004, Elisabeth Vincentelli's 33 1/3 book about ABBA Gold needed to do a LOT of defending before she could get to the heart of what made ABBA great IIRC.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:07 (three years ago) link

Also you've lost me with the classicist thing, I've never heard that used as a criticism of Steely Dan.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:07 (three years ago) link

Schmaltzy is about the last word I would use to describe Steely Dan. Who on earth still goes on about stuff not being punk enough?

― Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, March 10, 2021 2:06 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

still is the operative word here. like voodoo chili says, a lot of attitudes were towards these bands were clouded by punk/DIY ethos (aka rockism) until relatively recently.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:09 (three years ago) link

This seems to be entirely from a US perspective though.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:10 (three years ago) link

Classicist as in "being formally and technically good at what you do", using studio musicians, auditioning X amount of guitarists to get the right take rather than just hammering it out

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:10 (three years ago) link

I do remember, back in the day, when Thurston Moore and Kurt Cobain or whoever kept going on about punk rock wondering why they kept going on about punk rock. So, there's definitely a US/UK thing going on there too.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:19 (three years ago) link

I remember the mindset pretty well. I just didn't recall Steely Dan as being especially an indie whipping boy. The ILM thread was mostly people defending Steely Dan and saying the diCrescenzo review was ridiculous, and even the review itself was in part reacting against favourable press coverage and "credibility" for Two Against Nature. (He contrasted this with how Chicago, Rush, or Cheap Trick were viewed, all of whom I recall as bigger targets.) But yeah, that review definitely still counts as negative criticism in a popular outlet, on the grounds that you're describing, and I'm sure it wasn't alone.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:19 (three years ago) link

I made it through 3 Abba albums (Arrival through Voulez Vous) over the past few days before I had to admit I just like the hits.

peace, man, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:21 (three years ago) link

But then looking at the track listings of those albums, each one has on it about five hits - or b-sides that could have been hits or were hits in some territory. I think it's that when ABBA get down to the true filler material they're not afraid to get very silly, distractingly so sometimes.

Josefa, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 14:49 (three years ago) link

ABBA are very silly

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:07 (three years ago) link

In other news: Voulez-Vous is a perfect song. One of those songs like Buffallo Stance that isn't content with having just one super-memorable hook, so strings together about five of them

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:08 (three years ago) link

Also fits in with what I call "zombie disco". See also the dead-eyed backing vocals on Lay All Your Love On Me, also a perfect song

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:09 (three years ago) link

One of those songs like Buffallo Stance that isn't content with having just one super-memorable hook, so strings together about five of them

― Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, March 10, 2021 8:08 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

trying to think of an abba song this doesn't describe

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:10 (three years ago) link

^

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:11 (three years ago) link

The problem with a weak ABBA song isn't that it doesn't have hooks, it's that the hooks are cutesy or irritating. My worst offender: "Hole in Your Soul".

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:22 (three years ago) link

"Chiquitita" is too twee for my taste, but the only ABBA tune that inspired, "Ew, gross, get away" is "Does Your Mother Know?"

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:23 (three years ago) link

It's a shame about "Does Your Mother Know". It's got such a great, driving force behind it, loads of dancey enthusiasm, but yeah gross.

Off the Gold songs, I'm not keen on Mamma Mia, maybe because it's over-played and used in a bunch of contexts I don't care for (rom coms, musicals etc)

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:30 (three years ago) link

i like "does your mother know" but i do ignore the lyric. voulez-vous is the worst album of their imperial phase but again it has "if it wasn't for the nights," maybe a top five abba deep cut?

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:31 (three years ago) link

every song on super trouper is good, change my mind

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:33 (three years ago) link

Lots of people don't like I Have A Dream and Thank You For The Music, but I dunno, I think they're kinda sweet and bittersweet. They've got a bunch of songs like that, Happy New Year, The Way Old Friends Do, which play out a bit like... hymns or children's choir songs or something?

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:33 (three years ago) link

Brad, I was going to say Super Trouper is kind of like a poor man's Visitors but looking at the tracklisting, the only songs I'm not 100% into are Andante Andante and The Piper

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:34 (three years ago) link

Everything else is top quality

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:35 (three years ago) link

"The Way Old Friends Do". Man, that's an incredible song in the context of the band's relationship story. An anti-break-up song? The "acceptance" part of the grief cycle? Like a lot of the songs from that era, it destroys me if I listen to it and I'm not on my guard

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:37 (three years ago) link

the only ABBA tune that inspired, "Ew, gross, get away" is "Does Your Mother Know?"

I think this was the first ABBA song I ever heard, which might be why I loathed them for so long, possibly unfairly.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:40 (three years ago) link

It's not just the lyric. I recoil when the dudes sing.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:42 (three years ago) link

hmmm their voices do tend to appear on my least favorite songs but i have no problem with them as vocals

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:46 (three years ago) link

I find it weird to imagine not having heard Mamma Mia, Waterloo, SOS, Dancing Queen, Gimme Gimme Gimme, Voulez-Vous etc

Just listened to the latter two because I wasn't sure if I'd heard them or not. The first one sounds familiar but I think only because of the bit sampled by Madonna. The latter isn't familiar to me at all.

I know ABBA wasn't unknown in the U.S., but I do think they had a much smaller footprint here. I think we're the same age, Dog Latin, but when I think of artists who were played at school dances and otherwise impossible to escape when I was growing up, Michael Jackson and Prince were way more popular than ABBA.

jaymc, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:46 (three years ago) link

Oh, and Madonna herself, obviously.

jaymc, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:47 (three years ago) link

The first one sounds familiar but I think only because of the bit sampled by Madonna. The latter isn't familiar to me at all.

By which I mean "Gimme Gimme Gimme" and "Voulez-Vous," in case that wasn't clear.

jaymc, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:48 (three years ago) link

The dude songs tend to be the silliest ones too

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:50 (three years ago) link

I've never been able to get into Super Trouper as an album but it definitely has its moments ('On and On and On' and 'Me and I' are the standout album tracks). My absolute favourite is ABBA: The Album but a large part of that is nostalgia, it was the one LP from my parents' collection I picked up on when I first got into music (they also had the first Greatest Hits with the park bench cover).

Gavin, Leeds, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:52 (three years ago) link

Prisoner of my past: if you were a North American high school student in the mid-'70s, it's hard to connect these two. I guess I've gained some appreciation for ABBA over the years--when Elvis Costello enthused about them in an early-'80s Rolling Stone interview, that probably opened my mind a little.

clemenza, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:55 (three years ago) link

This must be an Atlantic divide thing. There was a fairly popular UK comedy with Kathy Burke in it called "Gimme Gimme Gimme", so I'm p sure it was almost a household expression by then because of the song. Similarly, Alan Partridge played on the "Ahaaaa!" part of Knowing Me, Knowing You song for his first series, so it's fair to say ABBA songs are part of the British vernacular.

Don't think there are many people over a certain age over here who wouldn't know the "Voooo-lay Voooooooo / Ahah!" refrain either. It's just part of the world. Of course they played MJ and to a lesser extent Prince at our school discos.

I was only peripherally aware of a Madonna song sampling ABBA.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:55 (three years ago) link

my aunt was/is a huge abba fan so i wonder how much of my idea of their u.s. popularity is skewed by that

the mama mia! musical/movies were so huge however that they've been kinda in the cultural firmament forever tho

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 15:56 (three years ago) link

Yeah, a big part of my intro to ABBA was my mum being into them. She took me to the local library as a kid and we withdrew a Greatest Hits tape out.
I don't remember being enthralled by it exactly, but those were some key formative music experiences for me. Then there was the Erasure ABBA-esque EP which I bought with pocket money.
As a rockist indie-kid student I kind of hated ABBA because they got played a LOT at "Cheesy tunes" student nights alongside more modern throwaway kitschy fare like Steps. c2006, I came back to them and read the Vincentelli book and grew to love them.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:02 (three years ago) link

But no, they didn't get played as much as MC Hammer at my middle school dances.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:03 (three years ago) link

"Chiquitita" is too twee for my taste, but the only ABBA tune that inspired, "Ew, gross, get away" is "Does Your Mother Know?"

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 10, 2021 10:23 AM (thirty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I mean, in Does Your Mother Know, the narrator is at least explicitly rejecting the advances of the teenager. How about When I Kissed the Teacher?

peace, man, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:04 (three years ago) link

With certain bands there's a "common perception" vs an actual thing. A bit like how a lot of people still think of the Beach Boys as little more thana bunch of fat blokes in stripey shirts singing about surfing, but never really heard Pet Sounds or Surf's Up

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:05 (three years ago) link

I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBA#Success_in_the_United_States

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBA_discography#Singles, they had 18 top 10 hits in the U.K. (including 9 #1s!), compared to 4 top 10 hits in the U.S. (with only one #1).

And their last U.S. top 10, "The Winner Takes All" (huh?), was released when I was one year old.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Americans who are a bit older than me have a stronger connection to ABBA, but it took me a while to learn that Erasure's "Take a Chance on Me" (which was popular with the theater kids in my high school when I was a freshman) was a cover.

jaymc, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:11 (three years ago) link

It's very murky in my mind how many of the ABBA hits I knew from when they came out vs. became familiar with after the fact. Definitely knew "Dancing Queen" because I have a specific memory of being at the rollerskating rink when I was 8 and a teenager pushed me to the floor while the song was playing. I feel as if I must have known "SOS" and "Fernando" bc they're so super familiar but beyond that there's a spectrum of doubt about whether retroactive memories are involved. I definitely remember seeing ABBA albums at people's houses a lot in the '70s. I have more specific memories w/ Steely Dan songs, but the Dan were well-served by US radio in a way that ABBA weren't.

Josefa, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:12 (three years ago) link

"lay all your love on me" is the greatest power metal song ever written

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:13 (three years ago) link

jaymc, I'm surprised by the time you got to high school or college you wouldn't have at least heard the tracks from Gold. Before 2007, it was responsible for the first serious U.S. comeback. I heard those songs for most of the mid to late '90s.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:21 (three years ago) link

"The Winner Takes All" (huh?)

Among the grandest, saddest, most generous of divorce anthems.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:22 (three years ago) link

all right since i listened to most of the abba albums yesterday i'm gonna spend this workday listening to the dan and try not to enter a fugue of suicidal despair

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:23 (three years ago) link

I heard ABBA on AM radio in Toronto at the time. It's curious how much leeway the stations had to program LP tracks: I distinctly remember often hearing "Dance (While the Music Still Goes On)" and "The Piper" on the radio, which were apparently never released as singles anywhere.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:25 (three years ago) link

I had no idea Erasure was still around in 1992 tbh, let alone that they covered ABBA.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:30 (three years ago) link

they hit #1 in England with that EP.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:31 (three years ago) link

Tbf an 80s synthpop group covering ABBA sounds like the worst nightmare of my 13yo self so I may have blocked it out.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:38 (three years ago) link

Not sure where I would've heard ABBA, tbh. Even now, the only songs that I expect would be widely known by Americans of all ages are "Dancing Queen" (definitely heard this one at college parties and weddings) and "Mamma Mia" (because of the musical/movie).

jaymc, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:39 (three years ago) link

The video (featuring Erasure in drag as ABBA's singers) was on MuchMusic a lot, sund4r, if you were watching that.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:41 (three years ago) link

"lay all your love on me" is the greatest power metal song ever written

― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, March 10, 2021 4:13 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Brad, you heard Ghost's cover of I'm A Marionette?

"The Winner Takes All" (huh?)

Among the grandest, saddest, most generous of divorce anthems.

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 10, 2021 4:22 PM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

QFT. It's genuinely wounding. "I don't wanna talk / If it makes you feel bad". Also that quote from either Bjorn or Benny denouncing the sentiment of the song: "There were no winners in our divorce", compounds it.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:42 (three years ago) link

The gods may throw a dice
Their minds as cold as ice
And someone way down here
Loses someone dear

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:43 (three years ago) link

oh i haven't heard that ghost cover but i'm going to put it on rn

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:48 (three years ago) link

The video (featuring Erasure in drag as ABBA's singers) was on MuchMusic a lot, sund4r, if you were watching that.

More the metal and alternative programs probably. I would have definitely changed the channel before I clocked that what I was hearing was a band named Erasure who had done a new cover of "Take a Chance on Me".

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:52 (three years ago) link

that ghost cover is rad!!! dave grohl plays drums on it!!!

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:54 (three years ago) link

only really good thing on Erasure's ABBA-esque EP is their version of Voulez Vous

Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 16:59 (three years ago) link

It doesn't seem like this had any chart presence in Canada at all? Now Erasure is a band I never heard, or possibly heard of, until well into adulthood, tbh. (My life did not improve upon hearing them.)

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:05 (three years ago) link

Erasure have some jams ("Oh L'Amour," the deathless "Chains of Love," "Love to Hate You," "Blue Savannah").

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:11 (three years ago) link

I'm reminded that ABBA is listed in the Spin Alternative Guide published in 1995 (so are Erasure; Steely Dan are not). This might indicate that there had been a change in their reputation in the hip US press by that time.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:14 (three years ago) link

I like Erasure's version of "Take A Chance On Me" with MC Kinky (of E-zee Possee "fame")

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:25 (three years ago) link

Yeah, a big part of my intro to ABBA was my mum being into them.

Even my mum was into them and she had no interest in pop music at all - apart from Bryan Ferry and the Stylistics.

In the UK, ABBA and Queen have pretty much outstripped the Beatles and Elvis or whoever, they are that popular. It's a quiet week when there's not a programme about ABBA on somewhere on some channel in the UK.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:25 (three years ago) link

Super Trouper has the great b-side “Elaine”

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:30 (three years ago) link

They're the first entry in the Spin guide, in fact!

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:32 (three years ago) link

Erasure were pretty big and popular over here from c1985-1992. At one point regarded on a close par with PSB and Depeche Mode due to the Vince Clark thing and Andy Bell's flamboyant performances. I really like the song "Circus". They're not especially well remembered these days.

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:32 (three years ago) link

"Stop!", "A Little Respect", "Blue Savannah", "Sometimes", "Always", "Love To Hate You" - I forget how prominent their songs were growing up

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:35 (three years ago) link

so grateful that ABBA and Erasure were in my life since I can remember, though I think they both had little presence outside my family. only Erasure video I remember ever seeing was "Always," and probably just once.

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:35 (three years ago) link

Just thinking about how Erasure are to ABBA what De La Soul are to Steely Dan. Pretty sure I heard "Eye Know" years before anything by SD

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:56 (three years ago) link

Erasure's "A Little Respect" is one of my favorite pop songs ever written.

it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 17:58 (three years ago) link

Ha, I've been hearing "Rikki" and "Do It Again" my whole life p much.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:00 (three years ago) link

I did hear "Eye Know" before "Peg", though.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:00 (three years ago) link

I remember some counselors doing a skit to 'Dancing Queen' at camp when I was...9? That was my first exposure to ABBA. I loved that song from the first time I heard it.

Don't think I consciously searched out the Dan until 2005 or so, which was the first time I consciously heard "Peg," which blew my mind.

it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:04 (three years ago) link

Although I knew all of the SD hits, given that for years it seemed that they were never not on the radio (and then the initial Fagen solo stuff), I don't think I listened to any SD album until the '90s. As if sitting down and listening to one of the albums all the way through was more of an adult move than I was prepared to make.

Josefa, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:09 (three years ago) link

it's how you know you've crossed into middle age. Somehow that happened for me around 16.

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:31 (three years ago) link

lol same

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:32 (three years ago) link

"Erasure are to ABBA what De La Soul are to Steely Dan"

De La Soul never dressed as Donald and Walter in a video though.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:35 (three years ago) link

I remember when that Erasure EP came out. I was in my early teens and didn't know much of anything about either group, but I had enough received wisdom from whatever music press I had been exposed to by that point to be bewildered that anybody would be covering ABBA.

peace, man, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:35 (three years ago) link

...the third guy in De La Soul could have dressed as Gary Katz.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:38 (three years ago) link

...or Denny Dias.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:38 (three years ago) link

The Erasure covers EP was the first record I ever bought (on cassingle), iirc all four tracks got radio play in turn (I think they might all have had videos too). 'Take a Chance on Me' was the only one I knew the ABBA version of at that point though.

Gavin, Leeds, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:51 (three years ago) link

Weird: I love "Eye Know"; I love Steely Dan; but because my interest in Steely Dan stopped with The Royal Scam (I was young, and my interest turned towards punk), I didn't know "Eye Know" was based on a Steely Dan sample.

clemenza, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 18:56 (three years ago) link

In the UK, ABBA and Queen have pretty much outstripped the Beatles and Elvis or whoever, they are that popular. It's a quiet week when there's not a programme about ABBA on somewhere on some channel in the UK.

OK, yeah, no, they're far from obscure but they're not ubiquitous in the way that AC/DC or Madonna or someone are. I always saw them as a bit dated/passé. Probably part of why they seem quaint.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 19:36 (three years ago) link

I think I was a bit too young for the first wave of ABBA's success in the US. I must have heard them growing up, but the first time I can remember enjoying an ABBA song and knowing it was an ABBA song was around 1988, because of a teacher who played "Waterloo" during gym class. I finally broke down and bought "Gold" sometime in the late '90s/early '00s, when Napster had made it easier to hear how many great songs they have.

I didn't knowingly hear a Steely Dan song until college, when I started occasionally listening to classic rock radio, with "Do It Again" being a staple, but I didn't really dig into their discography until many years later. That smooth and slick jazz and blues oriented sound didn't really fit at all with my '90s listening preferences. They sounded very dated and '70s to me, more so even than ABBA.

o. nate, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 19:38 (three years ago) link

Weird: I love "Eye Know"; I love Steely Dan; but because my interest in Steely Dan stopped with The Royal Scam (I was young, and my interest turned towards punk), I didn't know "Eye Know" was based on a Steely Dan sample.

To be fair, if you listen closely, it's a pretty thick collage - the sample of Otis Redding's "Dock of the Bay" is just as prominent if not moreso. But yeah, beyond the actual "Peg" sample (including what's more or less the title lyric) the entire track has the same chords as "Peg."

I'm not a big fan of The Royal Scam myself - I still have the singles, but even those sound a cut below their best stuff.

birdistheword, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 19:57 (three years ago) link

Aren't there two "Peg" samples in there?

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 20:02 (three years ago) link

yeah it uses the sax riff and the electric keys from the song, too

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 20:07 (three years ago) link

even pretty deep heads don't know that "Eye Know"'s most crucial sample is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX4cB_WhBB4

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 20:48 (three years ago) link

was reminded tonight by way of a disco retrospective on Dutch TV how much inspired “Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!” was, both musically and lyrically, by Donna Summer’s “Hot Stuff”, which had been a hit just a few months earlier.

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 21:28 (three years ago) link

my first instinct was the dan but honestly nothing they've done has given me as much joy as 'dancing queen', so without even having fully investigated abba, i'm voting for them.

map ca. 1890 (map), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 21:35 (three years ago) link

i think the female touch is crucial to why abba is the right choice for me

map ca. 1890 (map), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 21:36 (three years ago) link

"I want my subscriptions to go to the people I play" - Björn Ulvaeus, legendary songwriter and member of ABBA, wants the music streaming services to change the way they pay artists.@JohnWilson14 investigates the realities of streaming for musicians https://t.co/M2l2jfBUPd pic.twitter.com/D8MUQCTLqH

— BBC Radio 4 (@BBCRadio4) March 10, 2021

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:11 (three years ago) link

Doubt we'd ever hear Donald be so magnanimous, tbh.

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:13 (three years ago) link

i think i'm gonna vote for abba actually.... hmmm

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:47 (three years ago) link

even as i'm saying this, god countdown to ecstasy is a fucking amazing album

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:48 (three years ago) link

Their best, and it shows that they didn't need seven drummers or eight guitarists to make a great record.

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:52 (three years ago) link

I don't know each SD inside out but it's a straight up excellent album from beginning to end

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:55 (three years ago) link

i am just way more likely to burst into tears during an abba song, much as the dan flatter both my taste (with jazz) and my intelligence (with acerbic doom)

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:55 (three years ago) link

I kind of wanna say ABBA = hearts, DAN = minds

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:56 (three years ago) link

Lol, posted that before your post Brad

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:57 (three years ago) link

tobacco they grow in peking
in the year of the locust you'll sing a sad thing
even cathy berberian knows there's one roulade she can't sing
dumb luck, my friend, won't suck me in this time

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 22:59 (three years ago) link

you'll SEE a sad thing*

ugh

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 23:00 (three years ago) link

That bridge doesn't make you cry?

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 23:00 (three years ago) link

lol i think the reason i posted it is because it is indeed a dan moment that makes me feel a swell of emotion

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 23:01 (three years ago) link

no marigolds in the promised land
there's a hole! in the ground! where they usedtogrow!!!

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 23:02 (three years ago) link

guitar tone and playing in "my old school" deserve some kind of guitar award that's in the shape of a guitar

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 10 March 2021 23:08 (three years ago) link

Was just talking to a friend today about Danny Diaz. He's often tasked with some of the most difficult Dan parts, but today I learned that one of the ways to distinguish him from the other ringers is that he apparently doesn't bend his strings.

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 10 March 2021 23:42 (three years ago) link

no marigolds in the promised land
there's a hole! in the ground! where they usedtogrow!!!

― caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Wednesday, March 10, 2021 6:02 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Gun to my head, that's my favorite song of all time

J. Sam, Thursday, 11 March 2021 00:21 (three years ago) link

That song is proto Meat Puppets.

peace, man, Thursday, 11 March 2021 00:32 (three years ago) link

I want every song recorded to sound like "Bad Sneakers."

And "Voulez-Vous."

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 March 2021 00:47 (three years ago) link

^truth

J. Sam, Thursday, 11 March 2021 00:52 (three years ago) link

I'm counting down to ecstasy right now while drinking a Nonino and soda in honor of this thread

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Thursday, 11 March 2021 01:10 (three years ago) link

I did hear "Eye Know" before "Peg", though.

Tbf, I knew "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" before "Song for My Father".

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 March 2021 01:40 (three years ago) link

I heard "Babylon Sisters" before "Dancing Queen" because my mom was cool and ordered Steely Dan Gold (Expanded Edition) from Columbia House when I was in third grade. Thanks, mom!

J. Sam, Thursday, 11 March 2021 02:08 (three years ago) link

katy lied was my second dan album after aja. i've always loved how freaking perverse the second side is. what a weird, cloudy, unsettling record

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Thursday, 11 March 2021 03:17 (three years ago) link

did anyone make a "ts: your gold teeth vs. your gold teeth ii" thread yet

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Thursday, 11 March 2021 03:18 (three years ago) link

og gold teeth would win but gold teeth ii is so goddamn good

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Thursday, 11 March 2021 03:19 (three years ago) link

Gold Teeth II all the way. Maybe the best guitar solo on a SD record

J. Sam, Thursday, 11 March 2021 03:27 (three years ago) link

That's Denny Dias, iirc.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 March 2021 03:58 (three years ago) link

He would have played the solos on both Gold Teeth!

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 04:02 (three years ago) link

Does anyone have any idea about the significance of "Throw Back the Little Ones"? I know it's not really about fishing.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 04:12 (three years ago) link

Shots?

"what are you DOING to fleetwood mac??" (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 11 March 2021 04:15 (three years ago) link

IIRC I've heard it claimed to be an oblique commentary on hiring and firing band members. Only the lyrics

Hot licks and rhetoric
Don't count much for nothing
Be glad if you can use what you borrow

really seem to support this reading.

Ward Fowler, Thursday, 11 March 2021 09:53 (three years ago) link

The chorus is interesting in that light! "Pan-fry" and "gently squeeze" the musicians tactfully to get results. Reminds me of what Fagen said about working with Dias: "Denny is an extremely tractable human being".
I guess the verses could then be about trying to fit in with the "rock scene" and the dislocation that involves.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 12:37 (three years ago) link

hot licks and rhetoric, don’t count much for nothin

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Thursday, 11 March 2021 12:57 (three years ago) link

lol somehow missed ward Fowler’s post, but i love throw back the little ones, especially that mini, baroque-style piano piece that closes the song (and album)

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Thursday, 11 March 2021 13:00 (three years ago) link

I'll probably get roasted for this, but the little tricky horn section in the middle of the song always remind me of Frank Zappa.

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Thursday, 11 March 2021 13:14 (three years ago) link

no i hear you. unlike a lot of those zappa horn licks, the one on “throw back” actually exists within the established chord structure of the song

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Thursday, 11 March 2021 13:16 (three years ago) link

I definitely hear a lot of Zappa in the Dan

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Thursday, 11 March 2021 13:27 (three years ago) link

I don't hear much Zappa, aside from a default cynicism. But I did find this funny Becker bit:

Walter Becker was once asked to listen to some tracks from music albums blindfolded and then give his opinion. One of these albums was Zoot Allures, where the interviewer played the title track: "Well, at first I thought it was the Floyd Rose All Stars. But I did suspect, and it was later confirmed, at least to my judgment, that it was Frank Zappa. There were some interesting tonal ideas in there, but it was very ponderous. I don't think I've ever heard music that seemed slower and less groovacious. I felt as if my life was being artificially extended. Some poor drummer was called in to play this tedious half-time beat. It was kind of stiff sounding. Frank Zappa used to play a lot of his solos through his wah-wah setup, just leave it partway on so that you get a particularly nasal and annoying tone. Let me say that Frank Zappa was one of my heroes in the late '60s and early '70s, and some of the best concerts I ever heard were his from that period. Much of his stuff I'm very much in favor of, but I lost interest in the mid-'70s. Who was the drummer, Aynsley Dunbar?" When the interviewer told him it was Terry Bozzio Becker said: "Didn't have a chance. It wasn't Terry's fault."

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 March 2021 13:41 (three years ago) link

Just doing some random googling I found a link to a site that offered a download of Steely Dan covers by various folks. In the intro they made this interesting observation:

It is not easy to do covers of songs that rely on intricate arrangements, and only very few Dan songs have been covered any significant number of times. This is what Steely Dan share with ABBA. But where the versions on the ABBA covers mix mostly required reinvention to be any good, Steely Dan songs can be covered fairly straight and still be good.

As far as other muso musings go, I had my guitar lesson yesterday, and I asked my teacher pal (who knows Steely Dan inside and out) if there was anything going on with ABBA, and maybe to my surprise he immediately said "yes." He's not a fan, but he said years ago he had a gig or friend that asked him to work up some ABBA stuff for a show, and was surprised/impressed at some of the stuff he had to explore. He also recalled that they appeared on one of the very earliest SNLs, in 1975, in a bizarre bit with Robert Klein:

https://vimeo.com/509466579

The details, from an AVClub recap:

The most striking thing about this episode is the treatment of its musical guests, ABBA. (I should say one of its musical guests; Loudon Wainwright III is also on board, and, like ABBA, he performs two songs, one of which I first heard him do on M*A*S*H, in one of the episodes in which he appeared as the guitar-strumming Captain Spaulding. Was he brought in at the last minute as the “real,” certified-hip musical guest?) I don’t know anyone who has ever looked to SNL specifically for the integrity of the selection of its musical guests, but apparently Michaels got a huge bug up his ass about having the biggest-selling act in the world forced down his throat by the network. The official story is that lip-syncing was the issue: ABBA sang “S.O.S.” along to a pre-recorded backing track, and later in the show lip-synced to “Waterloo,” and this is said to have enraged Michaels, because nobody ever got to lip-sync when they were a musical guest on Saturday Night Live. (It goes without saying that the earliest versions of this story predate Ashlee Simpson’s appearance on the show in 2004.)

The show’s way of dealing with this was to turn ABBA’s appearance into a joke: The band is cast as the entertainment on the Titanic, and during the songs, the camera keeps cutting away to Klein, who mugs ferociously as the ship’s captain, reacting to the water that’s leaking on board. Furthermore, during the second number, the words “RIGHT NOW, ABBA IS LIP-SYNCING. IT’S NOT THEIR FAULT. THE TRACKS DIDN’T ARRIVE FROM SWEDEN” appear on the screen. The whole thing backfires: You don’t have to like the music to find the show’s clumsy attempt to undercut its own guests infantile and ungracious, especially since Klein’s antics make you want to strangle him. By contrast, Benny, Bjorn, Agnetha, and Anni-Frid come across as hard-working, eager to please, and just hoping to make it through the evening.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 March 2021 13:53 (three years ago) link

Just listening to “Voulez-Vous” with bonus track and thought someone needs to time machine back and get Metallica to cover “Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!” for Metallica S&M.

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Thursday, 11 March 2021 14:50 (three years ago) link

xp I saw that SNL clip somewhere and did wonder, why are they being treated like nobodies? It's very incongruous. Sill, their innate star power comes through.

Josefa, Thursday, 11 March 2021 15:02 (three years ago) link

xp I saw that SNL clip somewhere and did wonder, why are they being treated like nobodies? It's very incongruous.

It feels par for the course, but that's more for SNL, not ABBA. The '70s may have been their best years, but a lot of them (from Michaels to much of the cast and writing staff) frequently came off as smug assholes. To be fair, the lip-synching is incredibly lame - if the band really insisted on it, the show should have saved the Titanic bit for that one rather than sabotage both numbers.

birdistheword, Thursday, 11 March 2021 19:25 (three years ago) link

FWIW, apparently Michael O'Donoghue hated ABBA and voiced his displeasure according to Tom Shales's oral history on SNL (which is essential reading for anyone who wants to read anything on the show). There was a book on "The First Twenty Years" published in 1995 that also had a brief anecdote where it was suggested that a lot of people on the show pushed back because they thought ABBA was "the enemy" (as it was considered an anti-establishment show at the time). Feels pretty overblown when you see on the following pages that they were still booking some highly dubious recording artists even then, but whatever.

birdistheword, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:02 (three years ago) link

1975 is pretty early. They'd had some modest chart success by then, I think, but I always understood the band did not gain much of a foothold in America until a few years later, and even then, nowhere like the rest of the world. So I kind of find it hard to believe that ABBA was prominent enough in America in 1975 to be considered "the enemy" by anyone, really. Not that they were under the radar or anything, but, compared to a band like, say, the Bee Gees, even in 1975, were ABBA even close to unavoidable in the US?

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:23 (three years ago) link

Pop music vs. some guy with an acoustic guitar.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:30 (three years ago) link

Less that they were unavoidable or omnipresent, more that they were seen as foreign, tacky and ersatz, and rock fans wanted to draw a line. Here's Christgau's review of Greatest Hits Vol. 2 from 1979:

Fourteen cuts, close to an hour of polyvinyl chloride, and only two of 'em made U.S. top ten. We have met the enemy and they are them.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:32 (three years ago) link

Look, they booked Billy Joel - oooo, "Just the Way You Are." Take that establishment!

birdistheword, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:37 (three years ago) link

gonna give those darn suits a heart attack ack ack ack

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:45 (three years ago) link

Yeah, but 1975 is not 1979. A lot of stuff happened in those four years. Were people drawing a line at ABBA in 1975, even before they were drawing a line at Bee Gees, who were a lot more successful and prominent in the United States, even then?

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:47 (three years ago) link

god snl sucks

good a thread as any

brimstead, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:51 (three years ago) link

Well, they could only have been taken less seriously in America in 1975, due largely to chauvinism. Lots of Americans dismissed them as a novelty act throughout the 80s.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:56 (three years ago) link

They weren't seen as "ABBA, the great destructors of Rock", they were seen as a tacky Euro novelty that somehow got on the radio.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:57 (three years ago) link

Were they considered more or less tacky or cheesy than something like the Bay City Rollers or Carpenters? (I have no idea. I've never really listened to any of those bands.)

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 March 2021 20:59 (three years ago) link

Probably more so, coming from Sweden.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 21:05 (three years ago) link

what is it about continental pop that infuriated US critics so much? bc the standard criticisms about funklessness and artifice seemed to suddenly become praise when applied to UK artists

nothing (Left), Thursday, 11 March 2021 21:09 (three years ago) link

Billboard top ten for 1975:

1 "Love Will Keep Us Together," Captain & Tennille
2 "Rhinestone Cowboy," Glen Campbell
3 "Philadelphia Freedom," Elton John
4 "Before the Next Teardrop Falls," Freddy Fender
5 "My Eyes Adored You," Frankie Valli
6 "Some Kind of Wonderful," Grand Funk
7 "Shining Star," Earth, Wind & Fire
8 "Fame," David Bowie
9 "Laughter in the Rain," Neil Sedaka
10 "One of These Nights," Eagles

It's not really ABBA's fault that the US was trapped in soft rock hell that year. (Neither ABBA or Steely Dan made the Hot 100 in 1975.)

Brad C., Thursday, 11 March 2021 21:10 (three years ago) link

are these charts based on airplay? was there no market, or was it assumed there wouldn't be

nothing (Left), Thursday, 11 March 2021 21:13 (three years ago) link

Pop music vs. some guy with an acoustic guitar.

Aside from the compositions themselves, as I discussed above, didn't they mostly write their own songs and play their instruments (albeit with a studio rhythm section), even produce the songs themselves?

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 March 2021 21:24 (three years ago) link

They weren't seen as "ABBA, the great destructors of Rock", they were seen as a tacky Euro novelty that somehow got on the radio.

also seen as being popular with women and gay men, a cardinal sin for 70s rock fans

nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Thursday, 11 March 2021 21:28 (three years ago) link

are these charts based on airplay? was there no market, or was it assumed there wouldn't be

― nothing (Left),

sales and airplay and payola

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 March 2021 21:29 (three years ago) link

sund4r, Christgau called their songs "advertising jingles", about the worst epithet a rock critic could throw in the 70s. So being writers and producers didn't count much for those who disdained the music entirely.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 21:36 (three years ago) link

xp

If I've got this straight, the Billboard singles charts of that era were based on retail sales and radio airplay, using a points system that gave more weight to sales than airplay.

As a listener/survivor of 70s Top 40 radio, I remember it as a jumble of genres increasingly dominated by soft rock, e.g. mid-tempo pop songs by white artists ... what we now think of as classic rock was not played nearly as frequently, and black music steadily lost representation in spite of the popularity of disco. ABBA's sophistication didn't stand out as much as it deserved in that bland morass -- teen listeners like me were usually just frustrated that the most-played songs in that hyper-repetitive format were rarely loud, fast, hard, or funky. It was a dark time!

Not surprisingly, I liked all the Steely Dan singles long before I heard and loved the albums; I thought of ABBA as a generic variety show act until I got older and less insular in my musical tastes.

Brad C., Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:00 (three years ago) link

yeah, payola too

Brad C., Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:01 (three years ago) link

For the longest time all I knew of ABBA was that Lester Bangs photo.

Honestly, I always did slot them in with, well, stuff like the Carpenters and Bay City Rollers, kind of cheesy pop targeted as such, as opposed to, say, Chic or Bee Gees, which definitely got targeted because disco/gay/black/dance/"the enemy of rock" music. As ABBA (like the Carpenters, briefly) got a bit of a hipper foothold, I just assumed a lot of people were enjoying them ironically, as kind of kitsch artifacts. But then there was another twist, at least as I remember it, where their general popularity at large crossed over with their kitsch/ironic appeal here, and suddenly you get phenomena like "Murial's Wedding," Bjorn Again, "Mamma Mia!" etc., which steadily, belatedly firmed them up as icons and/or totems in America, though hardly universal. All imo, of course.

Steely Dan is trickier, since I think their fan base might be more diverse/diffuse. There are music nerds, ironic yacht rock lovers, MOR folks who just like to boogie to the smooth sounds but ignore the rough edges ... I kind of think the Dan remains more of an acquired taste, like an obscure, bitter spirit. ABBA is more like an easy drinking wine that snobs turn their nose up at just because it costs the fraction of something more lauded.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:06 (three years ago) link

If I've got this straight, the Billboard singles charts of that era were based on retail sales and radio airplay, using a points system that gave more weight to sales than airplay.

pre-soundscan, this was calculated by surveying record shop proprietors, who were not always truthful.

caek or daeth (voodoo chili), Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:15 (three years ago) link

Aside from the compositions themselves, as I discussed above, didn't they mostly write their own songs and play their instruments (albeit with a studio rhythm section), even produce the songs themselves?

Benny definitely played on all of their stuff - as someone else pointed out his piano playing is pretty distinctive. Not sure about Bjorn but when you've got access to the best guitarists in the country why play yourself I suppose? They most certainly did produce themselves though!

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:25 (three years ago) link

Assuming Fagen came up with most of the key parts I think a Benny vs. Fagen poll could be good

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:32 (three years ago) link

A bunch of session guys are credited on Voulez Vous but Bjorn Ulvaeus is credited with guitar on the earlier albums on discogs (sometimes with additional guitarists on some tracks). Credits aren't always honest, though.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:36 (three years ago) link

They seem a long way from the Max Martin model!

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:39 (three years ago) link

Honestly, I always did slot them in with, well, stuff like the Carpenters and Bay City Rollers, kind of cheesy pop targeted as such, as opposed to, say, Chic or Bee Gees, which definitely got targeted because disco/gay/black/dance/"the enemy of rock" music. As ABBA (like the Carpenters, briefly) got a bit of a hipper foothold, I just assumed a lot of people were enjoying them ironically, as kind of kitsch artifacts

Not to pick on you, Josh, but I've seen comments like this about ABBA, Ferry, a few others. Where do y'all get the idea that listeners -- gays and grannies -- listen to music "ironically"? I've heard this theory most of my life. Do you read books ironically? Eat ironically? How does one do this?

Also, it pays to examine one's own prejudices. A band like ABBA beloved by moms and gay men, not by white straight dudes.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:42 (three years ago) link

I think Benny mostly strummed acoustic, I think his major contribution was singing and working on the lyrics.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:43 (three years ago) link

I seem to remember a thread here on bands with a career of at least a decade who never, ever did a cover and ABBA was one of the very few contenders.

Zelda Zonk, Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:51 (three years ago) link

Fwiw, Donna and Sister Sledge were #3 and #4 on the 1979 Pazz & Jop singles poll; Donna Summer and Chic also made the albums poll.

https://www.villagevoice.com/2014/01/15/the-village-voices-pazz-jop-critics-poll-top-10-singles-by-year-1979-2013/
https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres79.php

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:52 (three years ago) link

#Donna Summer

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:52 (three years ago) link

Ugh *Donna Summer

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:52 (three years ago) link

I mentioned above that both ABBA and Steely Dan only recorded one cover apiece.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 22:54 (three years ago) link

I think Benny mostly strummed acoustic, I think his major contribution was singing and working on the lyrics.

Bjorn you mean, I think he did have a lot to do with the music too.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:06 (three years ago) link

You're right, Alfred, that it's not fair to ascribe that to listeners, necessarily. I think if you commit to consuming anything - books, movies, food - there probably isn't anything ironic about it. Then again, I think (for example) that there is something ironic about, say, state fair food. Buying deep fried sticks of butter, that sort of thing. And the Lester Bangs photo above, there is definitely something intentionally ironic about him, of all people, touting this band, of all bands. Isn't there? Isn't that the idea of him posing like that and making a big deal about it? I also think for a lot of people the whole idea of "yacht rock," as a thing, is, at least for some, a sort of ironic construct, too. But yeah, I dunno.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:08 (three years ago) link

... oops, smaller than I thought, but Chris Carter is wearing an ABBA badge there.

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:14 (three years ago) link

i voted ABBA because they bring me deep & everlasting joy
However that’s not a slight against the Dan
I am a casual Steely Dan fan at best & just dont have much of an emotional connection to them

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:15 (three years ago) link

Right, Bjorn played acoustic guitar, and I suspect the folkier tracks have a lot to do with his input.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:18 (three years ago) link

Benny is big on his Swedish folk music though!

Wrote For Lunch (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:23 (three years ago) link

And the Lester Bangs photo above, there is definitely something intentionally ironic about him, of all people, touting this band, of all bands. Isn't there? Isn't that the idea of him posing like that and making a big deal about it?

Bangs was a big proponent of Bubblegum (defined--iirc--as Rock in it's least pretentious form) and he considered ABBA a Bubblegum band.

"what are you DOING to fleetwood mac??" (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:25 (three years ago) link

I mentioned above that both ABBA and Steely Dan only recorded one cover apiece.

After the out of court settlement and Keith Jarrett later earning a songwriting credit, one might consider "Gaucho" a cover of sorts.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:25 (three years ago) link

Honestly, I always did slot them in with, well, stuff like the Carpenters and Bay City Rollers, kind of cheesy pop targeted as such, as opposed to, say, Chic or Bee Gees, which definitely got targeted because disco/gay/black/dance/"the enemy of rock" music. As ABBA (like the Carpenters, briefly) got a bit of a hipper foothold, I just assumed a lot of people were enjoying them ironically, as kind of kitsch artifacts. But then there was another twist, at least as I remember it, where their general popularity at large crossed over with their kitsch/ironic appeal here, and suddenly you get phenomena like "Murial's Wedding," Bjorn Again, "Mamma Mia!" etc., which steadily, belatedly firmed them up as icons and/or totems in America, though hardly universal. All imo, of course.

This resonates with me, and I feel like it supports my contention that ABBA was not nearly as big in the US as they were in the UK. Even though I hadn't actually heard their music growing up, I was aware of them as a kitschy '70s relic, sort of like how I was aware of the Grateful Dead as icons of '60s hippie culture without having ever heard them, either. They were in the cultural ether without being present enough for me to form a connection.

jaymc, Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:37 (three years ago) link

Until the '90s.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:40 (three years ago) link

As for Steely Dan, I heard "Boddhisattva" on WXRT when I was 16, thought that it ripped, and then checked out A Decade of Steely Dan from the library. My dad was also a casual fan who occasionally sang Dan songs around the house (though didn't actually own any of their albums), so I had more of an immediate context for them.

jaymc, Thursday, 11 March 2021 23:48 (three years ago) link

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Saturday, 13 March 2021 00:01 (three years ago) link

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Sunday, 14 March 2021 00:01 (three years ago) link

Recount!

Woke For Luck (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 March 2021 00:04 (three years ago) link

dominion is with the dan

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 14 March 2021 00:05 (three years ago) link

result is nearly as right as it could possibly be

scamp til you're damp (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 14 March 2021 00:06 (three years ago) link

lol nice

birdistheword, Sunday, 14 March 2021 00:09 (three years ago) link

There are two kinds of ilxors

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Sunday, 14 March 2021 00:25 (three years ago) link

i like all kinds of music

scamp til you're damp (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 14 March 2021 00:27 (three years ago) link

Oh, I'm pleasantly surprised. I thought ABBA would walk this.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 March 2021 01:16 (three years ago) link

I kind of wanna say ABBA = hearts, DAN = minds

See, the opposite is the case for me.

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 March 2021 01:18 (three years ago) link

As an adult, I can appreciate ABBA's craft but I'm still a little detached from it. There are a number of Steely Dan songs that really move me in a visceral way. I don't see the jazz-influenced music and acerbic doom as things that flatter my taste or intelligence. (Soft jazz-pop is quite the opposite tbh.)

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 March 2021 01:26 (three years ago) link

I can’t believe that many people voted for abba

calstars, Sunday, 14 March 2021 01:46 (three years ago) link

will you send an S.O.S.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 14 March 2021 01:50 (three years ago) link

They were practically the ILM house band when it started. Gold was voted #3 record of all time in the 2001 poll.xp

to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 March 2021 01:51 (three years ago) link

TOO LOW

swing out sister: live in new donk city (geoffreyess), Sunday, 14 March 2021 01:53 (three years ago) link

But tell me does Dan kiss
Like I used to kiss you
Does it feel the same
When Dan calls your name

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Sunday, 14 March 2021 02:16 (three years ago) link

I was tempted to do a Steely Dan vs. ABBA poll - that would be a true battle of the '70s stalwarts.

― o. nate, Monday, July 28, 2008 12:25 PM (twelve years ago)

Steely Dan vs. Fleetwood Mac

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Sunday, 14 March 2021 02:25 (three years ago) link

"Do you have any good memories of the pandemic?"
"Yes--I singlehandedly won a message-board poll for Steely Dan over ABBA."

clemenza, Sunday, 14 March 2021 02:27 (three years ago) link

I voted Abba but I am surprised the vote was such a razor thin margin favoring Steely Dan.

Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Sunday, 14 March 2021 02:32 (three years ago) link

I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t like ABBA. I only know one person (my dad) who listens to Steely Dan.

beer drops on my keytar (morrisp), Sunday, 14 March 2021 02:36 (three years ago) link

I don’t know anybody

brimstead, Sunday, 14 March 2021 02:42 (three years ago) link

Haha, from the Steely Dan vs. Fleetwood Mac thread:

but the Dan versus ABBA is totally easy: the Dan by a fucking mile.

this one is so hard i can't even wrap my head around it right now.

― the table is the table, Monday, July 28, 2008 2:28 PM (twelve years ago) bookmarkflaglink

From this thread:

This is the hardest TS poll i've ever participated in.

ABBA.

― it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table), Tuesday, March 9, 2021 3:16 PM (four days ago) bookmarkflaglink

jaymc, Sunday, 14 March 2021 03:43 (three years ago) link

What’s next - Steely Dan vs. Steve Miller Band?

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Sunday, 14 March 2021 03:54 (three years ago) link

This is the kind of poll where I would legitimately like to see the demo breakdown. Also, what the ratio of spite votes were for each group.

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Sunday, 14 March 2021 03:56 (three years ago) link

the winner takes it all

buzza, Sunday, 14 March 2021 05:10 (three years ago) link

Steely Dan vs Kylie

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 14 March 2021 09:37 (three years ago) link

Those results. Poor ABBA. So close yet so far

Party With A Jagger Ban (dog latin), Sunday, 14 March 2021 09:55 (three years ago) link

Jeez, I thought ABBA (my vote) would win by a mile...

octobeard, Sunday, 14 March 2021 09:59 (three years ago) link

ILM prefers their divorces Haitian, not Swedish. Now there's only emptiness, nothing to say.

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Sunday, 14 March 2021 10:14 (three years ago) link

I thought Dan would win by a mile.

Woke For Luck (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 March 2021 10:38 (three years ago) link

So quite pleased ABBA got so close.

Woke For Luck (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 March 2021 10:39 (three years ago) link

I guess someone needs to do a Fleetwood Mac vs Abba poll to complete the triangle, sometime around 2032.

Dan Worsley, Sunday, 14 March 2021 10:55 (three years ago) link

I'd be curious (not so curious as to create a poll) to have a more nuanced breakdown, how many love one and hate the other, love both, etc. Maybe it's anti-popism prejudice, but I think the ABBA voters here are less tolerant of the Dan than the reverse.

Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 14 March 2021 12:17 (three years ago) link

If this had been 81-82 (when each band effectively ended their initial incarnation), that really would have been something.

(I didn't vote. I'd have tied it, I guess. Oops)

Michael Jones, Sunday, 14 March 2021 12:28 (three years ago) link

What Steely Dan songs would be best for a Broadway musical adaptation and what would it be called?

peace, man, Sunday, 14 March 2021 12:40 (three years ago) link

I wonder if a single vote was swayed by the existence of Two Against Nature and Everything Must Go: "The Dan are more vital, because they made comeback records in the 00s."

Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 14 March 2021 12:57 (three years ago) link

I'd be curious (not so curious as to create a poll) to have a more nuanced breakdown, how many love one and hate the other, love both, etc. Maybe it's anti-popism prejudice, but I think the ABBA voters here are less tolerant of the Dan than the reverse.

Not sure about that. I'm fairly sure however that ABBA polled comfortably more with non-North American voters.

Woke For Luck (Tom D.), Sunday, 14 March 2021 13:28 (three years ago) link

What Steely Dan songs would be best for a Broadway musical adaptation and what would it be called?

― peace, man, Sunday, 14 March 2021 12:40 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Josie or FM would be good songs to base it around, but it would obviously be called Reelin in the Years, wouldn't it

glumdalclitch, Sunday, 14 March 2021 13:57 (three years ago) link

It already came out- “Oh, Hello” on Broadway

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Sunday, 14 March 2021 14:52 (three years ago) link

So… there's at least 165 of us?

pomenitul, Sunday, 14 March 2021 14:54 (three years ago) link

...and one of us is only waiting for a call

Blick, Bils & Blinky • Let's Skip The Shaker Intros (breastcrawl), Sunday, 14 March 2021 15:13 (three years ago) link

I almost didn’t vote but glad I did. helped vanquish the abba beast

calstars, Sunday, 14 March 2021 17:06 (three years ago) link

holy shit.

it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table), Monday, 15 March 2021 20:15 (three years ago) link


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