Some classic moments from Sunday's NY Times article on Avril Lavigne...

also, what jel said

(ok nobody said it did)

Like you say, who said it mattered? But I thought it was a nice little peek behind the scenes -- nothing revealing, but a useful reminder that pop doesn't just fall out of the sky! And if she's really as more take charge these days as the article says she is, then good for her. :-)

And the whole thing about the Louis Vuitton bag!

Columbia A&R Guy: "Hey Bob, grow a creepy moustache, that'll get people talking about what an 'eccentric genius' you are again."

Bob Dylan: "zzzzzz."

What exactly did the PR people do to get The Streets so hip?

Why, they got people to talk about it on ILM, of course!

I think you just identified twenty-five years' mindset of indie (given that the 'good' product is felt as good by those creating it rather than everyone else per se).

people who pretty much everyone could have guessed the demystification-details of anyway!

I dunno. Hadn't heard about the Shania-worshipping mom before! But this is obviously a difference in detail.

Is the question less one of cool and more one of a female/male divide, Tom? I'm not saying that's intentional on your part, but I note your construction is between female 'pop' and male 'not as pop,' if you like. Are you thinking that you're tired of articles that look behind the scenes at female performers who by and large are seen as puppets already rather than yer XY chromosome types who aren't? (Boy bands being the perversely interesting exception...).

Hah! I don't know, Tom, but if you find a connection between the two, let me know. Presumably, if it's a negative article, it might involve trade in hard drugs, and/or coffee.

No, we learn about Canadian pioneers. But you could ask her who the first Canadian Prime Minister was and I get the sneaking feeling that she wouldnt have a clue.

"I do have hip-hop moments, you know," Mr. Stencil said, admitting to owning an Ol' Dirty Bastard CD.

"I wanted one because I thought he was really cool," he added. "And it's real, not one of the fake ones off the street."

hstencil, I bet Mick Jagger has like, 3000 "real" Louis Vuitton bags in his closet and you don't see anyone mocking him for it

Then again, Jagger doesn't have justify his love of fashion, as he's never claimed to be "punk!" (or "pop!" or "in your face!"). I don't think that's a double standard at all. Nobody marketed the Rolling Stones as anti-fashion, certainly not themselves.

'After that, Ms. Lavigne says, she was given the freedom to trust her own punk-rock instincts on what to wear (tank tops with ties, initially), how her album should be produced (more rock, not pop) and whether skateboarding was cool or not (it was).'

'"It seems of the other artists, there is more marketing — Avril is all about talent," said the 16-year-old Denise Desola of Long Island. She was outside Irving Plaza last summer waiting to hear Ms. Lavigne perform.

Katie Peer, 15, from Illinois, said of Ms. Lavigne: "She's awesome — you know, something new. I mean she actually plays the guitar. She's not fake."

But already the trappings of stardom have begun to creep into the punk persona that Ms. Lavigne is known for through her videos and stage performances.

"I do have girlie moments, you know," Ms. Lavigne said, admitting to owning a Louis Vuitton bag.

"I wanted one because I thought they were really cool," she added. "And it's real, not one of the fake ones off the street."'

Okay, I'll stop with the quotation marks.

Fashion = style over substance.

The prosecution rests.

Style over substance doesn't mean there's no substance, or vice versa.

Chopping down the cherry tree = punk as hell.
Not lying about it = not punk.
Kicking the Brits' collective asses = punk as hell.
Being president = not punk.
Being a gentleman farmer, organic-style = punk as hell.
Owning slaves = not punk.

So am I the only one laughing my ass off at this sentence? She wants it to be "more rapper"!??!? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...okay, yeah, there's something wrong with me, but it's funny!

More rapper = Lots of Parappa sound efx.

...which is why...

punk = rulez.

me=doofus (but I still love Avril)

Of course she does! Shania wears their shirt! And she's Shania meets Fiona Apple!

(Does Fiona wear punk band t-shirts?)

I don't know about all this superword "punk" stuff: it seems not worth fighting over. So she thought punk was Blink-182 and had never heard of the pistols: this means, what, that she has an accurate picture of what "punk" means to her peers in this day and age, as opposed to what it means to old people and time-travellers from the late seventies? It is very important that punks give up and realize that their history is now as open to casual pillaging as anything else, not some solemn historical certainty like the Holocaust.

This is the authenticity of Avril: that, within the context of the highly-marketed teen-pop world, she doesn't seem to be much different from her peers. She's not slick or impressive in the least -- in fact, she's more like some kind of snarly little rat who somehow managed to infiltrate the pop world with her naive genre-collapsing oddity and her ultra-juvenile lyrics. That's great, suckers!

Right, and Nirvana were a fluke, too.

I don't know about all this superword "punk" stuff: it seems not worth fighting over. So she thought punk was Blink-182 and had never heard of the pistols: this means, what, that she has an accurate picture of what "punk" means to her peers in this day and age, as opposed to what it means to old people and time-travellers from the late seventies? It is very important that punks give up and realize that their history is now as open to casual pillaging as anything else, not some solemn historical certainty like the Holocaust.

I'm not that old. Hell, when Bollocks came out I was like, what, 2? And punk is open to ANYONE's interpretation, I'm just more critical of some machine's manufactured version as opposed to an individual vision of it (i.e. I'm more interested in what people on ILM, even if I disagree with 'em, have to say about punk than what, say, Entertainment Weekly has to say).

And who sez the Holocaust isn't pillaged for effect, too? Didn't you see Schindler's List?

This is the authenticity of Avril: that, within the context of the highly-marketed teen-pop world, she doesn't seem to be much different from her peers. She's not slick or impressive in the least -- in fact, she's more like some kind of snarly little rat who somehow managed to infiltrate the pop world with her naive genre-collapsing oddity and her ultra-juvenile lyrics. That's great, suckers!

Sounds like you've bought the business plan, then!

As for punk, you're "critical of some machine's manufactured version as opposed to an individual vision of it" -- but umm for the record it would appear in that article that the "machine's" idea of punk was "she needs to know about the Sex Pistol's," whereas her "individual" idea of it was "is that like Blink-182?" I like her version a bit better, actually -- so yeah, it's turned out to be an awfully good business plan!

To be honest I think what I'm finding interesting about Avril is actually one of those happy accidents: a situation where the collision of (a) a pop-star production concept and (b) the star in question's weird juvenile ideas about what was cool created weird chimera personality that actually does seem a lot more fascinating and more natural than a lot of her competitors. I hope her personal "machine" plans on just relaxing the reigns and letting a kid at the pop charts, which I think is a great idea.

And to your point, James, I think Avril doesn't have a "concept" of "punk." Which wouldn't be so bad if she/her handlers/the mass media that gives her airtime/cover space could admit it.

In 1991, I was not surprised by Nirvana's success AT ALL (as I've expressed on other threads). Advertisements for Nevermind were all over the place more than a month before it came out, DGC gave it a big push, much larger than they did, say, Sonic Youth.

Does anyone else find it a tad ironic that middle aged ex-punks are bemoaning the fact that she's not aware of 'punks' legacy?

White Stripes = today's Nirvana
Garage rock = today's grunge

The music industry needs to work on some less predictable patterns.

We're all doomed?

The music industry needs to work on some less predictable patterns.

Why would they do that if it works for them?

Nabisco I think yr wide-eyed wonder at the Lavigne package is a bit odd - "they are real and write their own songs!" follows "they are glamourous and pop!" as sure as night follows day.

Put it this way: I expect "they are real and write their own songs" to come in the form of Vanessa Carlton or Alicia Keyes. But the Avril thing collapses together the hallmarks of teen-girl pop stardom and the "idea" of punk in a much stranger way. I can't think of any other artist (apart from Pink) who could get away with uniting singles as differently slanted as "Complicated" and "Sk8er Boi" (and then getting played on "urban" radio, at least in Chicago).

Nabisco: I can buy the argument that 'punk's ascendance into superword status has inexorably splintered its meaning across generations, but I find it hard to believe that all the PR, press and personal claims of punkdom aren't directly intended to establish connections with a very specific era or (at the very least) attitude.

I think it's this mixed-meaning doublethink that riles people most; surely the problem with the word 'punk' as it's applied to Avril is that its users activate it an attempt to conjure up a connection to an old guard punk 'aesthetic' (I know, that's loaded) which Avril has no meaningful connection to.

Yes let's set up a "SCHOOL FOR PUNKS" where we school teenagers in "ORIGINAL, AUTHENTIC and THIRTY-SOMETHING APPROVED DISSIDENCE". This would surely be a succes, but first I'm going try and see if BET and MTV will play more WINGS for me.

Meanwhile, did anyone notice the presence of Lauren Christy in the article? Wannabe Sophie B. Hawkins --> wannabe Alanis Morrissette --> wannabe Linda Perry! The CLASSIC trajectory, surely?

The reason I said I liked Avril's version of "punk" better is that in some sense it has more to do with the 77-punk spirit. The great paradox of trying to preserve the spirit of 77-punk is that that very spirit was fiercely non-traditionalist: as soon as you say "keep it alive" you are, in some small sense, killing it. What turns "punk" into a superword is the fact anyone can come along and claim anything as punk, and the complains of the Keep Punk Alive brigade will immediately make that thing seem more daringly punk-like than endless spot-checkings of everything against the Pistols. It tempts that brigade to defend rebellion by proposing conservatism and reverence, which makes them look dumb, which can be sort of funny.

So if anything makes Avril "punk" to me -- aside from the obvious fact of "Sk8er Boi" sounding like a slightly shinier version of the sort of thing Lookout were releasing throughout the American 90s -- it's her bold and really unconcerned pilfering of the entire idea of "punk." Punk, so far as I'm concerned, is now just a big bag of gestures, and I think it'd be to everyone's benefit -- Avril's and the Keep Punk Pure brigade alike -- to start tearing those gestures apart and start pasting them back together in new forms.

And Sk8R Boi doesn't sound like ANYTHING that was ever on Lookout, that's a completely off-base comparison.

I still haven't heard her, so I have no idea how punk she is, but to me the above statement makes a lot of sense.

Celine Dion?

Maybe the better way to say it is to think that punk can mean Blink 182 rather than punk must mean Blink 182 (or must mean the Sex Pistols or whatever). But I think you're arguing that already...

Let me modify that statement; I don't need to hear someone's record to determine how punk they are. A good interview (I'm not saying the above is one) should provide the answer for you.

Knowing the history of punk music or "culture" has no bearing on how punk someone could be, especially with someone as young as Avril.

Which brings up a weird sub-thread - was her being a clueless, "Blink-182 is punk"-believing teen actually a hindrance to her marketing schemes? Did she need to be trained to be an "authentic" punk in order to be more marketable?

It's the marketing of her as "authentic" that irritates me. If kids see this and swallow that she's "punk", authentic, plays her own instruments, etc., it circumscribes the whole DIY ethic in a corporate haze, one from which it would be nigh impossible to see a way out of.

And I agree with Sean about not having to hear a record to know if someone's "punk" or not. Punk is not a music style or fashion accessory, it's a method of working and creating, and Avril is clearly not familiar with it.

Shaky the DIY method is not a difficult revelation that needs to be carefully nurtured from generation to generation - it's a bleeding obvious way of going about things which is built into American culture and is even more so with the rise of the internet. DIY culture is not going to die just because Avril Lavigne gets a generation of kids to think punk is something different than you do. It might get called a different thing, so what?

I'm not at all sure Avril is claiming to be totally "DIY" though (because she obviously isn't and would end up with egg on her face). She is maybe claiming to be punk, For you, "punk" and "DIY" are inseparable, but punk-the-superword means quite different things to me so no, I don't mind. It's like the to-and-fro I had with hstencil upthread where "anti-fashion" and "anti-marketing" got all mixed up.

Even within the idea of DIY I think it's part of the natural teenage state of mind - you want to be individual as well as wanting to be accepted. A kid who gets into Avril and makes, say, an Avril Roolz webpage is still DIY, surely - same as one who picks up a guitar inspired by Avril. I'm not quite sure where the harmful effect is at 'ground level' so to speak.

TMFTML
html://intonation.blogspot.com

What the hell does that mean?!

actually i find it's better with a partner.

also Norman is OTM.

another one of those 'aren't they all stupid apart from me'type statements then.

avril will release a few good singles. she will prob have a good selling first alb and then when ppl get tired we'll just say 'next'.

Every ad agency I've ever worked for has been run by ex-punks. Kids today are more anti-authority and knee-jerk rebellious than ever. What would have been a bizarre and iconoclastic attitude for a 17 year old in 1977 is now endemic (cue conservative commentators rants about the decline of society and loss of values). Therefore there is no logical inconsistency in Avril being both pop and punk, or indeed Blink 182 for that matter. In a world where all kids are punks of some sort, being punk is a natural marketing strategy...

Let's hope Osama gets hold of a really big bomb and destroys the planet.

And it's gotten you nothing but frustration and prickly rash. Maybe.

That would be dumb, though. This whole hand-wringing about defining punk here, and the hand-wringing about defining "rock" elsethread is counter-productive to discussion because we get into these pissing contests about semantics and what's authentic, rather than just getting to the point. Julio is most on the money here, methinks.

ps thanks polyphonic!

I am an an-ti-CHRIST
I am an an-ar-CHIST

What are you feelings on that one?

If Springsteen said "um", would they print it?

If Robert Hilburn were transcribing it, yes, since every word of The Boss is holy writ to him.

The lyrics to "Sk8er Boi" i have a lot more problems with - they seem feebly vindictive - non-existent cool gradations used to disguise im-famous-youre-not face-rubbing. It's rock'n'roll alright but it's a bit pathetic too.

This bothers me (yes, a lot) when anyone does it; it indicates (to me) that the author felt their line was so good exactly as it was that to work a little harder on it in order to make it scan would somehow compromise it. This is why I can't listen to Br*ght Eyes, whom I thought showed a lot of promise, but who seem to believe that you get to pick and choose your way through English's naturally accentual-syllabic bent: C*nor inflates an unstressed syllable at least two or three times per song.

I hope I don't sound irritated or anything -- I completely love talking about this sort of thing -- I feel certain that I must have succeeded however in putting the rest of the thread soundly to sleep

A side note: if Avril Lavigne wasn't a young white girl and was in fact a blind old black man, would you be so concerned with her (his) lyrical impropriety?

A lot of rappers do this to, but -- surprise! -- the best ones almost never seem to find it necessary. In the "almost" lies the obvious truth of your point: say, when Rotten spits "anarCHEIST," why doesn't it chafe? Because he clearly knows what he's doing.

I've always had a habit of saying, for example, "What immortal hand or eye / hath framed thy fearful SIH-muh-trye" rather than 'SIH-muh-tree', mostly because it cracks me up.

Avril's faux pas is one of laziness, true, but that doesn't make it any less fun for ME to say "frust-RAY-ted!"

poly-fi, note that you have to completely eliminate the "u" to Be Like Avril - she more or less says "frisstrayted," since to pronounce the short u properly AND stress the "tray" would sound too ridiculous even for our Sk8er Grrl

Ahem.

Anyway, she pretty much sucks if you ask me but she's hardly harmful and I didn't think anyone did think she was punk until I came and read these here message boards, and even then everyone seems to just talk about how she's NOT punk. But that synth remix of Skater Boi is the greatest song in the history of sonic, um, sound.

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jul/20027212112403907403781.jpg

she doesskate, she can play her guitar, andnobody can be as gay as britney queers (except you of course). She is herself on her cd and i think you just follow people. try being what you are instead of being someone else. she can play a guitar better then u can play a woman, and u probably have to ave stabilisers on a fucking skateboard!

shes really cool and has a gr8 voice. anyone who hates her is a sucer coz they dont know real rockand nu metal

Her inspiration for her music comes from her ass. Her latest quote: "Why should I know about the Sex Pistols?" She's not too bright either and doesn't know what an inferiority complex is.

Avril rocks cause a haerd that she's good at suckin dick! She would make a great hore.

avril lavigne is neither. she is a poseur. i hate her. she tries sooo hard to put out this "bad girl" image when in reality shes nothing but britney spears in a tie. she RUINED my fucking life. everywhere i go people stop me and say "LIKE OMG! you look like avril lavigne" im guessing they dont understand what an insult that is.

Why can't Avril call herself "punk?" What does it matter? Who cares what she calls herself! She can be who and whatever she wants! You could call yourself an ice-skater and never have ice-skated in your life. It's just a title!

http://www.the-n.com/qa/settle.php?ipv_sectionID=28&ipv_debateID=164

http://www.dotvsdot.co.uk/vs/0/2853.html

http://www.nerd-love.org/avrilsucks/pics/highschool.html

http://www.eslcafe.com/discussion/dj/index.cgi?read=9467