This is another thread to wonder what people see in Justin Timberlake

Justin Timberlake is the 90s/00s version of Davy Jones.

Brilliant. Ned, without even trying, you manage to truly honor the fire.

You do realize, Anthony, that I now must declare a zealous fatwa on you for such blasphemy. Sleep soundly, infidel.

"Gone" is one of the few 'NSync songs where I liked Justin's singing and "Girlfriend" is completely saved by JC (as usual). Also, "Girlfriend" would be nothing without Lance.

The best of the "recent" boy band singles is still BSB's "The Call", though.

Justin Timberlake is the 90s/00s version of Davy Jones.

And Jay-Z does the showtunes better.

"All that matters/Is that you recognize/That it's just about respect"

I think you meant to say either Dan Fogelberg or Andrew Gold.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Jandek CD, err, I take that insult back.

I dunno: I enjoy the overall tone of the record, the leaps between its kicked-back good-humor chills (the great call-and-response on the opening track) and its dramas, which are more clear-eyed and subtle than I'd have expected ("Cry Me a River," etc; I appreciate the way the vocals are artfully arranged rather than trying to wring buckets of "emotion" out of pained melismatics). I like it when he squeaks in falsetto, as opposed to crooning; I like the three or four tracks that sound like someone sent an all-star team into a studio and told them they had forty-eight hours to come up with a modern equivalent to side two of Thriller. I like the richness of the production across the board, I like how much humor surrounds a lot of the tracks, I like how meek and inarticulate Justin can seem sometimes. I dunno, I think it's a really pleasant and enjoyable record.

When did "brilliant" start to mean "one of the worst sounds ever recorded"?

vs.

It doesn't matter
'Bout the car I drive, what I wear around my neck
All that matters
Is that you recognize that it's just about respect
It doesn't matter
'Bout the clothes I wear and where I go and why
All that matters
Is that you get hyped and we'll do it to you everytime (come on now)

Do you ever wonder why
This music gets you high
It takes you on a ride
You feel it when your
Body starts to rock (body starts to rock)
And baby you can't stop (you can't stop)
And the music's all you got (come on now)
This must be POP

See, John Lydon could only bitch about how people bug him. N'Sync turned their whining into a reaffirmation of how fuckin' on point they are. As seen in this lyric:

Now why you wanna try to classify the type of thing we do
'Cause we're just fine doin' what we like
Can we say the same for you?
I'm tired of feelin' all around me animosity
Just worry 'bout yours 'cause I'm a get mine now people can't you see

have you heard 'cry me a river'? if you haven't heard 'cry me a river' you are speaking too soon. i didn't like it at first! but it's going to change stuff. i saw the end of the video last night. it's going to change stuff. in a good way.

it's like, imagine michael jackson coming from 1982-- he'd been frozen! in a cryogenic thing. and they were able to cure his various problems in 2002, 20 years later. and after he was all disease free and cleaned up they set him up with all the best pop producers.

people say he doesn't have enough character, that he's just a voice. but that's part of his character. he's-- well, i don't even fully get his character. i don't feel comfortable explaining it.

it all started with celebrity. he's sick of people asking about 'this pop life and when's it gonna fade out?' and he says that they're going to 'bring it till the end.' it's all part of his prophecy and such.

"It's gonna suck for the next Nirvana or whatever 'cool' rock band comes along in about ten years from now. The next generation of critics are being raised on *NSYNC and Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys. Their measurement of quality is going to be different. It's going to be interesting to see the next Nirvana blasted for not having a big stage show."

the early 90s was his world war one. the early days in 'n sync was his joining the nazi party and the proclamation of the party program. celebrity was the beer hall putsch. then there was the time after celebrity had faded, his incarceration in landsberg and the refounding of the party. now, justified is the triumph in the 1932 elections. i can't wait for the final solution!

did anyone accuse hitler of not having enough character? probably. i mean, he might not have had so much charisma if he hadn't had such great producers and special effects and stuff, right? but hitler did have charisma! he had character! just a different kind. a kind of charisma and character very similar to justin timberlake's.

This may be stretching things a bit. Timberlake is cuter than Hitler, though.

*befuddled* If I knew the reference...

Justin is proper good at flouncing

I'll be the judge of that.

Is that really Ned?

Heavens, who did you want it to be? :-) I have to say most of the Focus Group has been great fun, generally speaking; it's a wonderful playlist. But between Coldplay and Justin, dear lord, what a glorious head of hate I am working up.

they had forty-eight hours to come up with a modern equivalent to side two of Thriller.

BUT IT DOES NOT. I agree with you that seems to be the intent, but my god does it ever just suck as a end result. Yours is the best defense I've seen for the album, Nabisco, but it still implies that neither Justin nor his backers had any hope but to think that people would be reminded of something else. In which case, I think I'd rather go ahead and listen to Thriller, thanks.

If the album is supposed to be the long-awaited fusion of two strands of hope in recent years (boy band ultra pop meets Neptunes take-in-everything), then I'm with Dan -- give me the remix of "The Call," because you can take this and bury it deep. They should have pulled a Smile and left it unreleased, then legends could have sprung up around it.

N'Sync turned their whining into a reaffirmation of how fuckin' on point they are.

THE WORLD DID NOT NEED A NEW "UP WITH PEOPLE," DAMMIT.

DK, that's the funniest Burnweed parody I've read in years. ;-)

Justin Timberlake is the "safe" version of Usher.

The fate of Ja Rule in ten years (previous holder of this position: Chesney Hawkes [maybe]).

MY POINT.

i love Girlfriend, and by the measure of my expectations based on that track, LILY was a bit of a disappointment, but i think it is lovably over-the-top, from the bizarre talking bits on down. it all feels a little stilted and overreaching, but i can't help appreciating it for all its ragged charm, almost like an ambitious rock band who tries stuff it might not be best at in an unpretentious and earnest way.

honestly, if i was in his position and had his image and abilities and fame, i'd probably do more or less the exact same thing...hire my favorite hip hop producers and make some weird modern blue eyed soul. and i might do it a bit differently from him, but i probably wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to go really overboard and alienate the pop audience...but if he delves gradually further and further in this direction, i can only imagine good coming from it.

also, i think the vs. Usher angle is interesting...i don't find Usher as interesting or consistent, but i can't imagine JT doing better with "U Don't Have To Call" if he'd gotten it. but that song is just perfection no matter what.

I'll grant you that. And I'd rather listen to HIM more as well. ;-)

weird modern blue eyed soul

This isn't a bad thing at all! But the trick is to make it not suck, which is where I think we are dividing in our opinions.

Is Robbie a comparative factor as well? I don't know, he seems more entertainingly ridiculous as an all-around personality than Justin could ever be. Let's have Justin top the 'rip off flesh for fans' video, then.

He's not fantastic, but I seriously can't even imagine having that much bile towards his effort.

I'm sort of proud of him in a weird way.

The album is a big Michael Jackson-hip hop-prog mess.

Which is kind of nice.

This, however, IS fun:

http://www.canal96.net/juegos/index.php?juego=jacksonbaby&ancho=600&alto=400

I'll get my coat.

but to respond to your riddle: i don't think it's really about "oh pop is good/fun, and if you disagree you're a BIG MEANIE and i don't wanna play with you", it's more of just a device for saying "hey, lighten the fuck up": in the end, it really doesn't matter who plays an instrument and if they write their own songs or not, you either like it for what it is or not...all that other criteria may be worth taking into account, but it's not that important. it's pointless to draw a line in the sand and say this is REAL SERIOUS MUSIC and this ISN'T and here's WHY. even if you did have enough faith in your own judgement to build a belief system around that idea, it's just not a very, well, fun way to look at the world.

Justin is cute.

-- Sean (saturnsf@y...), December 3rd, 2002.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dunno, do they? Let's ask some!

-- Ned Raggett (ned@k...), December 3rd, 2002.

Hey Neddypoo!
You didn't get Sean's reference, did you?

Dan this doesn't make sense. Usher is already perfectly safe, and it's for that reason that apart from the singles his last album was such a snoozefest. Justin couldn't be "safer" than Usher if he tried, and the best thing about Justified (a good but not amazing album) is that he doesn't. It's all the inspired moments of over-reaching - the tinny falsetto, the call-and-response in "Senorita", the overbaked arrangements - that make it so listenable. Usher, for all that he is a better singer, dancer and loverman, now sounds like he's terrified of overreaching.

I've not listened to the album much since I bought it - all the tracks are about a minute too long. Shame cos they're much better than I thought they would be aside from that.

"...hates fun" is just an in-joke, no?

I tremble!

"...hates fun" is just an in-joke, no?

But like the purported pop mafia, it can grate the more it is invoked. ;-)

Yes, but he isn't "safe". (There is a race card being flung about willy-nilly which may or may not be justified. Ha, _Justified_.)

I wouldn't be surprised if Chris Kirkpatrick turned into a Mike Nesmith-type. I also wouldn't be suprised if he turned into The Hamburglar and went "RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!" all over the next 'Nsync album, but that's a seperate issue.

Dan, anyone who is afraid of black music is going to stay away with Justin anyway. Do you really believe there is anyone who has championed Justin over, say, Usher, because he is white? The US charts would suggest that pop audiences no longer care much about skin colour, and in terms of critical success, well, urbanophobes will praise N*E*R*D long before they will praise JT. Where JT might beat Usher is that the former's album is vaguely conceptual (the self-conscious Jacko rips) whereas Usher's albums aren't really, but I think it clouds the argument to invoke either the race card or the term "safe". The latter implies that there is something correspondingly "difficult" about Usher, either at a musical or social level, which I think is definitely untrue.

Case in point: my little sister likes Justin, but she reserves her crush-status for Usher.

On this board? No.

I can't believe you just asked that. "Yeah, so racism exists, but it's not like it matters or anything..."

He obviously did not see their performance on T4 of a GRATE SONG called DAWSONS GEEK (supposedly after the T4 competition but I HOPE they had written it beforehand anyway)!

geniusgeniusgenius *kicks legs and pummels floor in glee* geniusgeniusgenius

A NICE PACKAGE

I don't think the success of Justin Timberlake is keeping Usher Raymond from getting his due or anything stupid like that, and I admit that a large portion of my frustration stems from thinking that Justin can't sing very well. This still doesn't change the fact the first thing I thought when I saw Justin's solo act was that he was completely biting off of Usher's style. All of the MJ signifiers people are quickly heaping on Justin (falsetto stupidity aside) are things Usher has been doing his entire career, from the style of song to the general vocal style to the dance routines. It aggravates me that no one else sees this (or acknowledges it).

I think Ben touched on this when it comes to the backing music, to reiterate my point a bit about how this is all such a wet dream conceptually. I think there's a HEAVY amount of wish fulfillment going on here, at least potentially, especially since the Neptunes have been deemed to Do No Wrong Ever Oh No. (Obviously I'm overstating, but even so...)

This is just the Neptunes/Timberland effect, tho.

Is he a critical darling? Most stuff I've seen has been lukewarm.

That is what I meant by "meaningful" Dan - I was not at all trying to imply that some racism doesn't matter, but I didn't think isolated cases of racism were relevant to the distinction you were trying to draw. I think you're right re the marketing though - the "this is urban reinvented" tagline is really dodgy and does potentially stem from Justin's status as an outsider-interloper in both the stylistic and cultural sense.

"All of the MJ signifiers people are quickly heaping on Justin (falsetto stupidity aside) are things Usher has been doing his entire career, from the style of song to the general vocal style to the dance routines. It aggravates me that no one else sees this (or acknowledges it)."

Dan, are people seeing MJ in Justin because he's white, or because he's blunt? Usher is much more discreet about the MJ influences. Plus he is working within a post-MJ "heritage", whereas Justin's move has been very self-conscious and deliberate. Also, I'm sure that Usher's far too busy prosecuting Craig David for stealing his shtick to worry about Justin Timberlake.

I admit that there are other factors that make the JT/MJ connection stick out more; the fact that they've had mutual admiration parties for each other and 'NSync sang backup for him on his last concert special (and SUCKED FEROCIOUSLY) mixed in with MJ's Disney fascination would obviously draw the two of them closer to each other. It just aggravates me that people are carrying on about JT like no one has ever done this type of thing before when you've got someone who's a better singer and dancer out on the scene right now who's already tread this path.

I will also adimt that I'm comparing Usher's singles to the entirety of Justin's album, which may not be a fair comparison.

Though I think Ned doth protest too much, I think he is right about the wish fufillment in one thing at least: the dancing (oh, and that castrato part, egad - is his "I just wanna love you, baby" a response to a knee in the groin?).

Maybe it's just my personal preference for a little grace, but I think J. Tim's dancing is horrible in "Like I Love You" (if not quite as horrifically aerobicized as J. Lo's). Best example is when him and Pharrell Williams are popping their locks or whatever, J is trying WAY too hard while Pharrell gets a little flow in it (and he's a fuckin' producer N.E.R.D.!). J just thrusts all over the place while the background dancers can alternate between smooth and rough.

Plus I'd love to see a video with one black guy (maybe Mario when he tries to jump on this "rock is back" bandwagon) and a shitload of white people at a club. Closest example I could think of is "N2Gether Now," but a couple other Wu-Bangers show up to hang with Method Man at the end.

Seriously, it's probably my favorite video from 2002 (noting that I only watch MTV once every 4 months or so and have probably only seen 10 videos).

But seriously! Cobalt-eyed stalker-psycho boy who has the supernatural ability to fly and make out with alien-looking women to piss off his ex...

It's such a deliciously evil, overreaching, downright bizarre video...

Anyway, what about poor Chad Hugo? He never gets any props.

http://www.angelfire.com/mo/ThePeoplesChamp/images/rocky3.jpg

http://www.swr3.de/musik/stars/popnews/pix/nsync_justin_timberlake_160x208.jpg

Still wondering, Ned et. al ?

_Thriller_ singles:

"Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'"
"Girl Is Mine"
"Thriller"
"Beat It"
"Billie Jean"
"Human Nature"
"P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)"

_Thriller_ album tracks:

"Baby Be Mine"
"Lady in My Life"

Which would you rather listen to?

"You Got It Bad" was the best ballad of its year, EASILY. The chorus alone makes it brilliant, but that "I'm your man/You're my girl" part completely puts it over the top. It's easily more interesting than, say, the new Mariah single or anything Puddle Of Mudd has done.

And it shines in the sun.

He just moans like a dying yeti

Usher, gyuto monk.

Also I think "Differences" or "Changes" or whatever it was called was a far superior ballad! In true radio fashion I can't even remember who it was, but it was so much better than "You Got It Bad" -- whenever the radio ballad slot popped up I'd sit there thinking please let it be "Differences" and not Usher. (Was it Ginuwine? I'm off to check.)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/pic200_web/drp100/p173/p17376ip298.jpg

Seriously, though; name a Ginuwine song that isn't horrifying. Also, in what universe is "P.Y.T." less melodramatic than "Billie Jean"?

This sort of begs the question "Why does he release his craptastic songs as singles?" Oh wait, he almost ruined the song with a "same old gee" comment, but the beat survived.

Dan, don't undermine the credibility of your own argument. Please purchase the 100% Ginuwine album and realise the error of your ways - I mean, "What's So Different"! "So Anxious"! "Final Warning"! "Remember What We Did Last Night"! "I Know"!

It's probably one of the strongest recent male R&B albums I can think of, and it's a concept album to boot (or at the very least, Ginuwine is endearingly fixated on the idea that everyone wants to break up his relationships by badmouthing him or his girl, just so that they themselves can sleep with him.

I would download more, but I'm far too busy enjoying _3-D_.