Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame Nominees 2024

Mariah Carey, Cher, Peter Frampton, Kool & the Gang, Lenny Kravitz, Sinéad O’Connor, Oasis, Ozzy Osbourne, Sade, and Foreigner are all up for the first time

i voted for rakim. i did not vote for eric b. sade deserves her own museum. she is WAAAAAYYY too cool to go anywhere near the state of Ohio. kool & the gang were fucking dope though. don't get me wrong.

not unlike peter frampton, oasis had like three good songs. guess that makes you a legend at this late date.

wait, are naughty by nature already in the rock & roll hall of fame? if so treach should really get a solo nomination. just for his bulletproof outfits alone. also: no Fudge Tunnel, no credibility.

I may be the only actual Hall of Fame voter on ILX, though I'm not sure about that. Anyway, I'll be voting for:

Eric B. & Rakim (because I still listen to Follow the Leader)
Jane's Addiction (because I still listen to Ritual de lo Habitual and because they were incredible live and because Perry Farrell created Lollapalooza)
Sinéad O'Connor (because her first two albums rule)
Ozzy Osbourne (because his first four albums rule)
Sade (because all their albums rule and by the way SADE IS A BAND)
Kool & the Gang (because black cookout music deserves to be in the Hall of Fame just as much as black music that white rock critics like)

I think I get to vote for seven instead of five this year, but none of the others deserve it IMO.

I'm a voter too! My current vote list:

Mary J. Blige
Kool & the Gang
Ozzy Osbourne
Sade
A Tribe Called Quest

(If I can indeed vote for six, I'll have to think about it a bit but based on the live shows alone back in 1991, Jane's, most likely.)

yes to all but DMB and Kravitz

how u gonna indict someone that proclaimed Rock 'n Roll is dead ffs

wait no, fuck Oasis

Sinead O'Connor, Tribe Called Quest, Cher, and Mariah Carey. No one I feel really passionate about this year--the first three all have songs I love; Mariah Carey, not as much (maybe her Jackson 5 cover), but I can construct arguments for those four.

Missed Eric B & Rakim--them too.

why can't they just call it the pop hall it would make everything easier

Lol just imagine the rockist backlash to that.

Actually though that would be funny so I support this idea

I think of "rock and roll" in the name mostly as defining a time period: the rock era (1950s-present), which includes many types of popular music genres.

voted mariah who has major rockist credentials which she's never been given enough credit for but half of these are good choices if there are such a thing as good choices

I am worried the davehead contingent might get there way this time which would be a real drag. ditto oasis if there are too many middle aged british men among the voters

if we could synonymize rock and pop again I would be very happy

If I had to pick five out of this bunch i'd vote for Sade, Sinead, Kool and the Gang, A Tribe Called Quest, Eric B and Rakim. Least likely to vote for: Lenny Kravitz

No to DMB, Foreigner, Frampton, Jane’s Addiction, Oasis and Kravitz.

Yeah, I'm with you. Maybe a case can be made for Jane's, but those other acts should never be in (though a few of them seem inevitable). Also, Kool & the Gang is one of the most underrated bands of all time. So many great songs.

I'm only voting Frampton so they can prank him by giving him confusing instructions as to where to enter the building, and to have a surly doorman to ask him what the fuck he wants him to do about it, and only to let him in when Peter gives the only response that makes any sense and simultaneously aggravates him that he has to say it

I honestly don't understand the case for O'Connor canonically. Lion and the Cobra & I Do Not Want great records no doubt, no one denies that. a big figure in the 90s for a couple of years. I know she is beloved by many of us from that generation, I like her too. But that's two albums with four hits if we're being stingy and six if we're being generous, and I think assigning her icon status is the sort of Wenner-like "look, to MY generation she was big" thing that...idk. maybe I'm wrong and everybody really rides for all the stuff after I Do Not Want?

the Butterfield Blues Band is in I mean...

I voted for Tribe.

the Butterfield Blues Band is in I mean...

ha well yes, point taken, but I mean, if "this earlier one was on scant qualifications so I want another scant qualifications inductee" then I demand my place in the RRHOF

I wasn't even sure there were five I liked - just barely. The ones I'd vote for:

Mary J. Blige
Eric B. & Rakim
Sinéad O’Connor
Sade
A Tribe Called Quest

Tribe is my top vote though

millennials and zoomers love sinead, maybe more so than the generations who actually remember her pop era. I see no reason to exclude her considering some of the crap they've already let in this thing

Sinead had two classic albums and a few more excellent ones, some fantastic collaborations sprinkled in there, she had some actual rebel moments which probably cost her dearly versus the lukewarm overtures of so many others who have one eye on making sure their careers are safe, had one of the greatest voices ever, etc. considering there are a lot of artists in the Rock Hall via excellent politicking and networking, it would be nice to see someone get in who didn't seem to have much interest in playing the game the right way.

i'll rep for old pete. i saw him on the tour that became that album, though the exact show i saw at the calderone concert hall didn't wind up on 'comes alive.' i'm pretty sure a different long island gig on the same tour did. what's not to like though -- a charming performer, free-flowing lead guitar work that kept to its own melodic flights (not really blues-based like everyone else), and songs that stuck with you and didn't otherwise get in the way. you can do worse than provide a nice rocking night out.

I would never use a tally of songs that were "hits" 25+ years ago as a measure of greatness. Plenty of terrible artists sold a lot of crap that lose currency fast. You see this with all music, especially when the original core audience has pretty much died and passed on. The music that means the most to anyone today, that people learn from and that has a lasting, profound impact has nothing to do with the amount they sold. You don't even need to look at "(How Much Is) That Doggie in the Window?," something like Bing Crosby's records have real merit, but they don't even approach the stature of Duke Ellington's, and Crosby sold a LOT more of them.

I honestly don't understand the case for O'Connor canonically. Lion and the Cobra & I Do Not Want great records no doubt, no one denies that. a big figure in the 90s for a couple of years. I know she is beloved by many of us from that generation, I like her too. But that's two albums with four hits if we're being stingy and six if we're being generous, and I think assigning her icon status is the sort of Wenner-like "look, to MY generation she was big" thing that...idk. maybe I'm wrong and everybody really rides for all the stuff after I Do Not Want?

I see what you're saying but I disagree, if only because we (the collective R&RHOF "we" and the sliver of the public that cares about it) have long since rocketed into "LOL nothing matters" territory as far as who "deserves" to be in. Number of hits doesn't really matter. I doubt anyone who nominated her has heard anything she did after I Do Not Want... I certainly haven't, and I'd still vote for her because "Mandinka" blew my head off in 1988. What matters with O'Connor is that she was an amazing singer, and had a great deal of impact on the politics of the pop music world, both at the time and possibly even more later as the world decided she'd been right all along. I mean, how many actual chart hits did Joan Baez have, for example?

I never know what to think about these nominee lists. How would you even choose, on what basis?

In this case, I think I'd go Jane's Addiction solely on the literal basis of "which of these is the most rock 'n' roll?" Even more than G'n'R, I think Jane's is the last great "rock band" in the way I grew up understanding that phrase, very much encompassing sex and drugs. In discussions about Jane's on Bandsplain and 60 Songs, there were a lot of references to how scary Jane's seemed to teen listeners at the time. To the degree that the phrase "rock 'n' roll" means anything, I think it needs an edge of menace and vice.

(by which standard obviously Ozzy also qualifies, but I'm OK with him being in already with Sabbath)

I’d also go with Jane’s, I guess (and I’m not even much of a fan). I’m sure some of the other artists listed are deserving… but of those whose work I’m familiar with enough to have an informed opinion, I would be lukewarm on.

(I clearly don’t belong in the Grammar Hall of Fame, based on that post…)

Man, the dubbing on Frampton on this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6_yZouoe6Q

I honestly don't understand the case for O'Connor canonically. Lion and the Cobra & I Do Not Want great records no doubt...but that's two albums with four hits if we're being stingy and six if we're being generous.

As I have with the Baseball HOF, my thinking has moved more in the direction of peak value than career value--I'd almost put O'Connor in for album #2 (and its two incredible singles) alone.

Nobody’s perfect but anyone who fought the church like Sinead did has my vote.

Was just going to say, if you also subscribe to the "character counts" drift that the baseball HOF is undergoing--a much dicier proposition with pop music, I'd say--then O'Connor also gets major credit for that whole ordeal, both for what she initially did and how she handled the fallout.

xp otm - refusing to play the game in order to stand up for your principles, especially to speak up for people who needed the help when the rest of the world refused to listen, that alone is more than deserving. (Definitely can't say that about a few of the other nominees.)

Totally agree with that. But also lol at the idea of "character counts" in the RRHOF, I don't know how many past inductees would make that cut.

Doesn't quite work, does it? "Goodbye, Jerry Lee Lewis; hello, England Dan & John Ford Coley." (About whom I know nothing--they seemed like nice people.)

England Dan ate a guy once

I listened to a whole England Dan/John Ford Coley album earlier this week, it rocked harder than I expected/wanted it to

You'd really love to induct them tonight.

England Dan & JFC first played together in the '60s Texas Garage/Psych bands Theze Few and Southwest F.O.B.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkEtNydb-RA

Peter Frampton, I'm sorry. This is supposed to be your shining moment.

tipsy mothra totally otm re jane’s - super hard band to rep for in 2024, maybe one of the most ‘you had to be there’ acts ever? (‘There’ being 1988-1991 precisely)

also they have done their legacy no favours - although i would never begrudge career musicians paying the mortgage however they gotta - i think there is a stated intention to try and claw back their rep a bit and the most recent shows have been pretty strong

anyway i still kinda love them despite everything

Eric B & Rakim don't have a large catalog and honestly most of their reputation is based on some amazing singles, however Rakim is one of the handful of rappers who really affected a fundamental change in the musical approach and structure of how people rapped, they absolutely must be in the HoF if it intends to take hip hop seriously.

As someone who missed that window, Jane's Addiction seemed like a somehow even lamer RHCP.

xpost Janes are to alt rock as the Doors were to classic rock, and maybe unfashionable for the same reasons now

I wrote a long thing about Jane's a few years ago that sums up why they're an instant vote for me. And why they're very fucked up and I can understand why a lot of people might hate them, especially Perry.

For the “fame” element it’s Mariah and Oasis.

For the “rock ‘n roll” attitude of disturbing the neighbours and kicking ass element it’s Sinead, Oasis, Jane’s Addiction, Eric B & Rakim and Ozzy I guess.

For career longevity (that’s probably a factor?) I guess it’s Cher, Mariah and Ozzy that that continued to stay in the limelight the longest?

I assume Sade is for the whole band not just Sade Adu…right?

Ozzy solo is fucking ridiculous, and the two non-Eric Avery Jane’s Addiction albums are so wretched that they should disqualify them

fwiw this is the radio concert that convinced teenaged me to go see the frampton band. (which turned out to be a different band than the one on this tape, but whatever.) i bet this gives that england dan / john ford coley lp a run for its money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4E1bGBvTns

damn that's a really smokin set

the two non-Eric Avery Jane’s Addiction albums are so wretched that they should disqualify them

I've never bothered to listen to anything past Ritual, and tbh Ritual is only half-great. So yeah, on the basis of catalog Jane's is also a hard case to make. But Nothing's Shocking, I mean ... definitely in my personal canon of perfect rock records, if not in the HOF's.

Jane’s for sheer impact, for me anyway

^through with Sergio

Mariah belongs on her own merits, Oasis like Siegbran says, for the fame factor, I’m only a mild appreciator but they were absolutely epochal for a certain UK generation.

Tribe should be in by any metric. I don’t feel strongly about anyone else

The UK can have its own rock n roll hall with Oasis and Blur and other BritPop bands lost to time.

Yeah, I agree with milo; Oasis have no place in a US-based Hall of Fame; they're one-hit wonders.

Oasis had multiple Modern Rock hits and several too 10 albums in the States

Oasis was huge in the US for a while, and I still hear "Champagne Supernova" and "Wonderwall" way more than I want to.

But even more than with Jane's Addiction, most people including me can't tell you about anything beyond two albums.

only two Oasis matter

Oasis albums

My argument for Cher:

1) At least two great Sonny & Cher singles, "I Got You Babe" and "Baby Don't Go"--probably one or two more.

2) Cher in the '70s: garish and kind of ridiculous, but hugely popular in the middle of the decade, with (I think) two #1s.

3) Her later disco success.

4) Combine those three, and she's set Elton-like Billboard records in the longevity department.

4) Culturally: huge, in a bunch of different ways.

I wouldn't dispute that Oasis were huge here I just hate them. My only standard for RNR HOF admission is "do I think they were cool."

(xpost) Actually, Cher had three #1s in the '70s--didn't realize "Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves" made #1. (For a change, not my mistake; that's the way it's spelled.)

I like Cher a lot - I don't really like any of Cher's music, but as a personality and for the movies I've seen, she's pretty great.

I'm not a big Oasis fan, but my partner loves them and I got to know their music better that way. Had they imploded in, say 1996, their recorded legacy would've been short but sweet: two strong albums accompanied by a stream of equally strong non-LP cuts (mostly B-sides) from the same time. I'm reluctant to call them great - for starters, they sound a little too derivative - but that initial burst of recordings still sound pretty good and I enjoy them when they're on. That whole stretch afterwards when they put out five more albums and change is the pits. I still have a 2003 issue of Mojo that has the results of their annual readers poll - they were particularly harsh towards Oasis, so I get the feeling they wore out their welcome even in the UK. But they had a huge moment, and I don't really like the idea or the implication that the HOF should be U.S.-centric - if they were massive in Britain, that should still count for a lot. (With that in mind, I'd sooner induct Blur, Suede and Pulp, but none of them broke through in the U.S. so I doubt they'll ever get nominated under iHeart's watch.)

Also, this is awesome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Vr2C9nyHI

Totally forgot my favourite Sonny & Cher single: "The Beat Goes On."

xp @6:10 Ugh, Liam....

oh yes Cher definitely

Cher does not belong no way

also what would be the rationale for Sonny not going in? he actually wrote, produced, and arranged those hits. if it was the acting Hall of Fame, Cher would have my vote but she's not a particularly great singer and if you look at the list of snubs in that other poll it's pretty hard to make an argument for her

(With that in mind, I'd sooner induct Blur, Suede and Pulp, but none of them broke through in the U.S. so I doubt they'll ever get nominated under iHeart's watch.)

I'd induct the Smiths before any of them

(xpost) I think it's easy to separate her from Sonny: his window of making music of lasting value is two years or three years, and then he ceases to be of any interest. I take your point about him writing and arranging those records, but that's far outweighed by Cher's musical career after Sonny & Cher. (I said her "disco success," but what I meant was what her success on dance charts in the '90s and '00s, less what she did in the late '70s--although there was "Take Me Home.") What you say about her singing might or might not be true, but that's kind of a subjective call.

What you say about her singing might or might not be true, but that's kind of a subjective call


I think the fact you wrote this sentence instead of arguing against means you know.

the entire hall is subjective.

she's a genuinely great actress

she's a genuinely great actress

She's such a good actress she convinced millions of people she was a singer.

None of you guys mentioned Foreigner so I voted for Foreigner. The absolute apotheosis of a certain kind of rock that is not much practiced anymore and which I'm not saying I crave but -- they were damn good at it, huge song after huge song, and I mean "huge" not in the sense of "high on charts", although that too, but a certain sense of PHYSICAL hugeness in the songs.

"I Want To Know What Love Is" sucks though, don't get me wrong.

I think the fact you wrote this sentence instead of arguing against means you know.

Not really...I love her singing on the three Sonny & Cher records I mentioned. I can't really disengage the technical prowess of her singing from those records. That's the Dylan thing, isn't it? We could spend all day arguing about what "good singing" means.

I thought that said Slade and I thought, "At last!"

clemenza you seriously look at this list and say she deserves to be the top five at the exclusion of the rest?

judges strictly on her music

also nice try with the Dylan thing but she's not carving out a uniquely atypical singing style like Bjork or Dylan or Damon Suzuki she's was just trying to sing in a conventional style but she didn't have a strong voice, it's like saying Paula Abdul is Mary Margaret O'Hara or something

She would seriously be one of my five picks from that list, yes. I started thinking a few years ago she should go in. I'm trying to look at the totality of her career, which encompasses a lot.

(Would she be one of my five picks going outside that list? No, not at all.)

what is your list?

of the poll choices?

I posted above: Sinead, Tribe Called Quest, Cher, Mariah Carey, Eric B. & Rakim.

Many others I would put in before her, some from that list of snubs that's up: the Shangri-Las, Dionne Warwick, the New York Dolls, Sonic Youth, Husker Du, the Shoes (kidding--that's my personal HOF), on and on.

tbh the Shoes made a perfect album something Cher cannot boast of

Gonna disagree on the Cher not having a strong voice part.

(xpost) We have reached consensus!

On whether she's Hall-worthy, I don't have a strong opinion

I used to love the short jokes she made about Sonny on their TV show. I'm not sure if that should figure in or not.

changing gears, Sinead is guaranteed getting in this year and it's kind of infuriating to see her be applauded by some of the same assholes who were fine with her post Pope scorning

also the fact that they will do it now when they can show a pretty picture of her and have Elvis Costello or someone solemnly intone about her talent rather than having to worry about what a living, breathing Sinead might have said during her acceptance speech

I wrote a long thing about Jane's a few years ago🕸 that sums up why they're an instant vote for me. And why they're very fucked up and I can understand why a lot of people might hate them, especially Perry.

I’m only a year younger than you Unperson but I definitely felt at the time Jane’s Addiction weren’t scary, just gross. RHCP at least looked like they were having a good time. And what was progressive politically about JA compared to Nirvana’s openly pro feminism pro-LGBT stance?

I am worried the davehead contingent might get there way this time which would be a real drag

Oh, until I noticed Oasis in the mix, I was 100% convinced DMB would be cruising toward induction this time around with absolutely no static. I still basically think that. His boring awful music demo hasn't had a rallying cause in quite some time.

"I Want To Know What Love Is" sucks though, don't get me wrong.

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Sunday, February 11, 2024 10:35 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

no it doesn’t!!!!

Lol I love Foreigner ballads more than their rockers

Gramm's voice was butter but he seemed to really dig deep for the ballads, incredible sense of dynamics.

"Waiting for a Girl Like You" > "I Wanna Know What Love Is", but I like both.

Of the non-ballads, "Urgent" is the best IMO. Foreigner was at its best when they were rocking in minor keys and sounding stressed out, the joyous rockers to me always sounded too forced. "Hot Blooded" don't do it for me

i love Foreigner w Lou Gramm SO much but Mick seems like such a dickwad I kinda dont want them to go in out of spite

also if it includes this garbage = instant disqualification

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiPkqX8SYgE

Is Foreigner one of those bands whose touring edition has no original members?

Mick is the only original member now
It’s a shitshow

I'd induct the Smiths before any of them

Same here, they should have been in 15 years ago, but I was just limiting the scope to that era in the mid-‘90s.

I never got Foreigner but I was surprised how even a few prominent haters held up “I Want to Know What Love Is” as some great defining moment in ‘80s rock simply for the gospel choir.

On whether she's Hall-worthy, I don't have a strong opinion

― never trust a big book and a simile (Neanderthal)

but is she Daryl Hall-worthy?

I never got Foreigner but I was surprised how even a few prominent haters held up “I Want to Know What Love Is” as some great defining moment in ‘80s rock simply for the gospel choir.

― birdistheword,

Nope. It's also because Lou Gramm sings it really fucking well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jA-_g_iSY0

To be fair, it’s not a bad single.

I can't stand "Cold As Ice," "Feels Like the First Time," and ugh "Hot Blooded," but I love the mid-tier things like "Blue Morning, Blue Day," "Long, Long Way From Home," and "Jukebox Hero."

“Urgent” seems to get some love - made it on to Dave Marsh’s 1001 list.

the nu-Foreigner is funny because I saw them in 2006, with Kelly Hansen on vox (he's still there), other hired guns, and Mick, and the stage banter was so awkward. like it felt like a hair band concert at times with all of the PG-13 bantz

"Let's give a round of applause for the LADIES in the audience!"

*roar*

"Do we ...have any NAUGHTY ladies here tonight?"

*roar*

"I like the naughty NAKED ones, myself"

*crickets*

"um...ok , here's Waiting for a Girl LIke You"

I like Cold as Ice, but FLTFT is the exact kinda shit I hate with Foreigner. the jubilous rockers always sounded so boring with them, cookie-cutter. I liked it better when they sounded like they were all doing a hair of the dog to forget about the previous day's misery

gargling the hair of dogs more like

It's funny that people get all wound up about Foreigner not having any "original" members left. The whole band was cobbled together by Jones and his manager out of available studio hacks and also-rans anyway. I mean, there's about as much of a "definitive" version of Foreigner as there is a "definitive" version of King Crimson or the Fall.

Lou Gramm is pretty definitive. Hansen's a great singer and probably sings the songs better than Gramm would at this stage of his life, but he also sings them noticeably differently.

the rest are pretty unimportant.

other than the two dimwitted brothers, does anyone care about the other members of oasis? boner and whitey or whoever.

always thought it was a mistake leaving Growing Pains to be in a britpop band

show me that smiiiile

Oasis's only essential release is Wibbling Rivalry

"Long Way From Home" is so good, it's like a secret world where Foreigner was like some weird progeny of BoC & 10cc

We’ll probably have the same actress-or-singer debate next year or so when JLo get nominated.

And 15 years from now with Bradley Cooper.

(If you say that in a Dave Chappelle voice, it's funny.)

Selena Gomez more likely, but yes.

Ridiculous how much the bar's been lowered. I guess John Travolta should be inducted - he had enormous hits (never mind that they sucked) and he actually played an important part in the massive popularity of disco.

OK I'm glad I brought up Foreigner so I can see that we all like different aspects of Foreigner. Maybe I am the only one for whom "Feels Like The First Time" strikes some deep resonance in my '70s kid spirit and leaves it ringing for minutes.

Maybe this is related to how much I like Styx. Oh now I think I need to go post about Styx in the "Worthy Acts Snubbed" thread.

does anyone care about the other members of oasis?

Well, for 10 years Andy Bell from Ride was in there. Must be kind of fun to be back in Ride, with that wild experience under your belt.

Foreigner is pretty much butt rock with glimmers of better things here and there. Like "Urgent" (which, thanks to Mutt, sound remarkably like the Cars) or "Girl Like You" (which features Thomas Dolby! The tale:

The introduction was created by Dolby using a Minimoog synthesizer. Dolby remembers Lange leaving him to his own devices in the studio one night, "like a kid locked in a toy shop" to develop the intro to the song with six tracks of the multitrack available. As a result, he made the "Eno-esque" ambient drones. These were sustained single notes in a minor scale, each recorded on a single track of a (separate) 2" multitrack tape; Dolby "played" the faders on the mixing console at Electric Lady Studios (by fading in and out the sustained notes) like a mellotron and bounced down the result onto two tracks. Drummer Dennis Elliott likened the intro to "massage music" but Jones liked it and it stuck.

My friend and I have a theory that a host of players got tons of work in the '80s just because, very talented or no, they were the only ones that knew how to even turn the synths on. Dolby, Harold Faltermeyer, Greg Phillinganes, etc.)

This discussion sent me to Tidal to listen to Foreigner and I think they might be up there with the Eagles on the "the singles are good to great, the album tracks are trash" scale. I listened to "Waiting For a Girl Like You," which is a good early 80s radio rock song, half crunch and half New Wave, but the next song is "Luanne," which features the lyrics

Luanne, Luanne
Why do you run and hide?
Luanne, Luanne
Don't keep your love inside
I wait around for you after school
You slip away and I don't see you
Don't know what I'm gonna do
If you can't see how much I need you
We met, one day, and then, you ran away
I've searched the whole town looking for you
I know you're there, somewhere

Now, I get that this is supposed to put the song into the "teenage love" subgenre of rock 'n' roll (the song has an old-timey Chuck Berry-esque guitar riff), but when these words come out of Lou Gramm's prematurely aged soul-man throat, they are 1000% a horror movie about an old pervert stalking a schoolgirl.

I didn't realize Dolby was so involved with the band, including "Urgent" which (in addition to him playing on it) was even influenced by one of his demos which was a surprise to him. Also didn't realize that was Junior Walker playing the sax - that's kind of like a supergroup recording that single.

i can't wait for the ceremony with sudsy, dingle, dikki, mick, wally, hernando, and shad weathersby.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/60242db4353f6c38279c800b/3435172b-1260-4aa4-a483-9de008a2a97d/HiRes-Foreigner-2021_credit.png

Apparently this is the song that partly inspired "Urgent"!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHd9ZJCAPNs

Sort of like later Cars and other "Mutt" projects, I'm not sure how much of the band is doing what on "Urgent."

Hilariously, here are the isolated drums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpDP0y8zTA8

I've heard Mary J. Blige's "Family Affair" off the car radio twice this week--once pre-nomination, once post (today). She wouldn't be one of my five, but I did have that on my Pazz & Jop list for whatever year it was--loved her possible nod to Chuck Berry with "hateration/botheration."

holleration iirc

voted for kool & the gang

They would never induct any artists from SST, 4AD, Rough Trade, or Factory (no, I don’t think Joy Division/New Order will make it), so fuck them

Completely on topic, great post

Can't argue with that sentiment. Should be at minimum a dozen artists from SST, 4AD, Rough Trade and Factory that should be in the HOF by now - instead it's a big fat zero and the fuckers at iHeart are throwing Dave Matthews at us yet again.

Looks like thirteen I would've inducted by now: Black Flag, Meat Puppets, Dinosaur Jr, Descendents, Minutemen, Hüsker Dü, Sonic Youth, Bad Brains, Screaming Trees, Pixies, The Smiths, Belle and Sebastian, Joy Division/New Order.

Belle and Sebastian(!) I know this is ILM, but c’mon now…

I don't listen to anything after The Boy With the Arab Strap but the early stuff is great - at least three worthy albums that get them in for me.

I like Belle and Sebastian too, but I part company with you there; as objectively as possible, I don't think they're anywhere near being a viable candidate.

Belle and Sebastian exceeds the standard of the HOF w/several classic albums and a couple of vv close to classic ones, unless we're concerned with sales and "fame" over quality exclusively, which i suppose this HOF is (i.e. Lenny Kravitz)

That's a big part of the equation, I think. I'm not knocking S&B, I just don't think they've made any kind of a discernible impact in North America in terms of sales, charts, or general fame. A British HOF, maybe a different story. If it were just quality, I actually wouldn't be kidding about the Shoes.

Uh, B&S.

There are more than a couple members who'll go WHO when asked about B&S.

put U.S. Maple in the rock n roll hall of fame

to be fair i think a bunch of members would go "who?" if you mentioned Thin Lizzy or Husker Du or The Replacements

I mean, if you are a member and you don't know who Thin Lizzy is, you should probably be immediately dropped from the list.

A British HOF, maybe a different story.

A thousand times no.

I think the argument you have to make for indie acts that didn't sell much is that they were notably influential.

I haven't kept up with charts in a while, so I checked Belle & Sebastian. Actually better than I thought; six albums charted on Billboard, the highest at #15. The rest were from #28-150, so yeah, unless you're the New York Dolls, that's still well short of the bar, I think. (Wikipedia often includes chart placings on specialty charts, but they don't for B&S. So I don't know how they fared on Billboard's alternative/indie/modern-rock chart.)

look if the RNRHOF won't bother with an all-time great and vv successful group like Blue Oyster Cult but will swiftly induct absolute mediocrities who know how to play the game right as far as staying in the limelight, there's zero hope for B&S or many others i'd like to see get in. this institution is what it is.

For the record, I like (early) B&S too... I just don't see how they really fit any criteria for inclusion in the Rock Hall (same with most of my deep indie/alt faves). At least we got Bon Jovi in!

They would never induct any artists from SST, 4AD, Rough Trade, or Factory (no, I don’t think Joy Division/New Order will make it), so fuck them

― beamish13, Sunday, February 11, 2024 11:28 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

otm

i am an accelerationist so i voted for dave matthews

https://consequence.net/2024/02/liam-gallagher-rock-roll-hall-of-fame-bumbaclarts/

xp lol

Seriously tho, if you don't think the current environment is ripe for a DMB wave-in, you are a more optimistic (or naive) person than I

If you were in the US indie scene at the time, the B&S mania was absolutely insane, seeming to dominate the whole world, but only for a couple of years, they are really a peak value candidate, the Fernando Valenzuela of the R&RHoF -- but I mean, what, are you going to put Arcade Fire in too?

Anyway, I am relistining to Foreigner _Double Vision_ and what's striking is the way songs like "Hot Blooded" do not, by modern standards, ROCK very hard -- when I was a kid I definitely thought of this song as rocking EXTREMELY hard. But to my current ear it ambles along!

Arcade Fire I could see being the token act inducted to stand in for the whole of 00s indie, they did get to arenas at one point and also have enough of that U2 epic uplift thing going on to appeal to the more conservative voters

Pixies probably have the only shot of the 80s alt/college/indie bands (more popular, influential on Nirvana, end of Fight Club)

i think the national is gonna be the token indie band from the 00s. arcade fire would've been, but for win butler's me too situation.

i was surprised that the white stripes didn't make it last year and are now not nominated. thought jack white's whole deal would appeal to the old guard

Other than Sade, Sinéad and Tribe, that's a pretty shit list.

Ozzy really doesn't deserve to get in as a solo artist.

Arcade Fire hung around long enough to win Grammies right? So that has to help them.

Yes, I think Pixies get in under the Velvet Underground rule

Ozzy really doesn't deserve to get in as a solo artist.

You couldn't be wronger about this. His first four studio solo albums are all incredible, and plenty of people rate the fifth and sixth as well, and his impact on the 80s metal scene was massive. Ozzy is a major, major figure, commercially and artistically.

yeah Ozzy definitely gets in on the basis of his early solo career easily

His 80s albums really haven't held up, not for me. I definitely wouldn't put them in the "incredible" column, although god knows I did when I was 15 and 16 years old.

Motorhead opened for him on the Blizzard tour, they represented more of the future of metal than Ozzy did, imho.

xpost really? idk they seem pretty timeless for me. even if you get tired of Ozzy's reedy voice, I feel like the first two are basically perfect albums

TBF, it's been years since I've listened to them.

i think the national is gonna be the token indie band from the 00s. arcade fire would've been, but for win butler's me too situation.

i was surprised that the white stripes didn't make it last year and are now not nominated. thought jack white's whole deal would appeal to the old guard

― the defenestration of prog (voodoo chili), Monday, February 12, 2024 1:38 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

national is a good call and agreed on white stripes, the old members will always loves the blooze

national is a good call and agreed on white stripes, the old members will always loves the blooze snooze

fxd

There’s no doubt about Ozzy - look at how people still talk of Rhoads, Aldridge, Lee, Wylde etc as sidemen; primarily or mostly from working with Ozzy

never really got the appeal of Zack Wylde but that speaks to what a prestigious position it was in metal guitar.

Jake E. Lee is amazing, so underrated

Jake E Lee's Badlands should be in the Hall of Fame

i was surprised that the white stripes didn't make it last year and are now not nominated. thought jack white's whole deal would appeal to the old guard

don't discount the possibility of the hall waiting till jack white is eligible to go in alone and inducting him that way. fucking over meg white would be very much in character.

some of the '80s underground and hardcore bands will get in on the "influences" side, but probably not 'til they're all dead. I don't think we'll ever have to, as Ron House once sang, blow it up before Albini gives a speech.

also The National guy becoming Taylor's main musical partner will definitely help them get in before any of the other '00s/'10s indie bands.

funny how in the '90s I thought the future Hall of Famers were like PJ Harvey and Bjork, but it was actually Green Day and Foo Fighters

RNR HOF 2028 - the Raconteurs are the sole inductee

Sheryl Crow over PJ Harvey and Björk was like watching Ron Howard win an Oscar over David Lynch and Robert Altman.

I kind of figured Green Day would get inducted early on for commercial reasons - Dookie sold ten million copies out of the gate, outpacing Nirvana and Pearl Jam.

xp for reference:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/obsessed/unforgettable-oscars-moment-lynch-and-altman-lose-to-ron-howard

Green Day is on because of American Idiot not Dookie, that is what made them a respectable classic rock band

the dreaded "mature statement"

I thought they already made their mature statement with "Good Riddance (Time of Your Life)"? Seinfeld even used it in their finale special for a sappy montage of all things.

That was their prom song. American Idiot was Political.

I looked it up and Dookie was 10x platinum and Idiot was 6x which I think is actually more impressive considering when those albums came out

American Idiot feels like the last time any Rock Band had legitimate & undeniably massive album in the classic mold.

Although I do see that All The Right Reasons by Nickleback (released in '05) went Diamond.

So, uh, yeah.

Nickleback is also now eligible for the RRHOF.

Creed will probably get in before Nickleback - 6 million-selling debut, 11-million follow-up, and a 6 million finale before breaking up.

Also, I didn't realize Sykes (the HOF CEO) was president of Mariah Carey and Carly Simon's management agency - I'm guessing he personally helped push to get them nominated.

Motorhead opened for him on the Blizzard tour, they represented more of the future of metal than Ozzy did, imho.

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux)

Anyway: Coldplay, Linkin Park, Arcade Fire and Paramore will probably be the bands to represent Rock in the 2000s? From the 90s I think Soundgarden and Alice In Chains will get in as well, to complete the grunge big 4. Korn, Deftones and System Of A Down, probably not but then again RATM got in, so who knows. As the Milennials gradually get in voting positions, they'll induct their childhood heroes, that's how it goes.

Also, I didn't realize Sykes (the HOF CEO) was president of Mariah Carey and Carly Simon's management agency - I'm guessing he personally helped push to get them nominated.
Mariah is the world's second best selling artist of the 2000s (after Eminem), I don't think she needed much of a push? Carly Simon, yes probably.

Korn, Deftones and System Of A Down, probably not but then again RATM got in, so who knows

Probably helped that Tom Morello has been on the R&RHOF nominating committee for a decade, not to mention playing with Springsteen and Chuck D, presenting at the Oscars, doing his usual political advocacy, etc. In other words, he played the role of Important Rock Guy long after RATM had hits.

Anyway: Coldplay, Linkin Park, Arcade Fire and Paramore will probably be the bands to represent Rock in the 2000s?

Probably could sub The Killers in for Arcade Fire. They sold really well in the 2000s (Hot Fuss did 6 million & Sam's Town did 4 million), still have a pretty big audience, and "Mr. Brightside" is a standard by this point.

Killers #'s: Worldwide, but mostly from the US BTW.

This thread makes me feel like an alien.

oh shit Satch has joined the thread!

OK I'm still on this Foreigner thing. "Cold as Ice" really sounds like it could be a song from a musical, I'm into it

one of the greats from the chipmunk sample era

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC2CHVw6twM

Motörhead never really sounded like the future of anything to me - just throwback rock 'n roll turned up to 11. Never very metal either, they have always had much more in common with AC/DC and The Ramones than with Slayer or Iron Maiden.

Interesting. I see them as having a huge influence on thrash and speed metal.

I saw them on that first tour, I didn't know what to make of them. It was a small venue and they sounded like sludge.

m.o.p. should get in before foreigner

Ante up mothafucka

decided i'm gonna vote for eric b. and rakim. you can really divide rap into two eras: before paid in full and after. he changed the art of rhyming forever, and he probably still hasn't been surpassed as a pure verse writer.

No Motörhead no discharge/dbeat punk

Rudimentary Peni for the hall

A man of many words… @paulmccartney. All of your votes matter! Click here: https://t.co/MwTwEsSvXB pic.twitter.com/oT26Ugu5iu

— Foreigner (@ForeignerMusic) February 27, 2024

that kinda rules

To be fair, I wouldn't have put Paul in as a solo artist either.

(Also to be fair, that vote happened in 1998, and not only did his solo work vastly improve afterwards, the bar for induction was continuously lowered to a ridiculous degree.)

This is the real list ? I was hoping to see Joy Division/New Order, Iron Maiden, and Devo again.

Oasis getting nominated before Smashing Pumpkins is wild. Does the Hall have a beef with the Pumpkins or something ? They seem to tick every box they usually like.
All their contemporaries are already in. Green Day, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, NIN, Radiohead, even RATM, but they've never even been nominated. Seems weird to me.

Nobody wants to sit through Corgan's acceptance speech.

Sent my ballot in on Monday. Voted for Eric B. & Rakim, Jane's Addiction, Kool & the Gang, Lenny Kravitz, Sinéad O'Connor, Ozzy Osbourne, and Sade.

This is the real list ? I was hoping to see Joy Division/New Order, Iron Maiden, and Devo again.

Same here. Had they included all three, they'd be among the seven I'd vote for.

As for "this group/person before this one," that's been a recurring problem with the HOF for decades. King Crimson should've been in decades ago as the first prog group - zero nominations. When Green Day and I think Pearl Jam were inducted, they both made the same comment - why did we get in before [insert the name of any great indie band from the '80s]? The Spinners finally got in when they should've been in decades ago as the first Philly soul group induction. I love the O'Jays too, but the Spinners should've been in first. And on and on for nearly every genre.

Forgot that Kool & The Gang's drummer passed away last year. I wonder if that helped get them a nomination? That's another unfortunate problem with the HOF, and I'd say the one that matters most - too many groups get inducted after key members die. The institution has rightfully been criticized for its value, but most inductees honestly take it as a very meaningful honor, and it's kind of shitty when Sterling Morrison, Ron Asheton, Whitney Houston, George Michael, etc. (all of whom reportedly truly cared about induction) never see it happen. tbh I wouldn't vote for Houston, but if she's in, she should've been able to at least enjoy that.

I hate to say it, but there’s no way Sinéad would be nominated if she were still alive today. I don’t think she cared or expected it either.

You're probably right about Sinéad - I think she should've been in a long time ago but if she was still here, I doubt she'd take it as a honor and would probably articulate everything wrong with the institution while declining the invitation to show up.

She'd ruo up a photo of Jann Wenner at the ceremony, obviously.

Uh..."ruo" = "rip"

If you look at the standard keyboard, such seemingly surreal mistakes are explicable.

Sent my ballot in on Monday. Voted for Eric B. & Rakim, Jane's Addiction, Kool & the Gang, Lenny Kravitz, Sinéad O'Connor, Ozzy Osbourne, and Sade.

― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson)

kinda surprised by your Lenny vote!

No one believes in the mythology of rock 'n' roll more than Lenny Kravitz. And honestly, every one of his albums has two or three songs that are really fucking good. (They're rarely the singles, though.) A properly curated Lenny Kravitz compilation would kinda rule.

I thought that said Slade and I thought, "At last!"

Only if it's pronounced "slah-DAY"

King Crimson should've been in decades ago as the first prog group - zero nominations.

Foreigner may be as close as they get, unless Bad Company get in someday (I assume ELP has as slim odds of induction as Giles, Giles and Fripp). I guess Bruford is in as a member of Yes, though surely for his work before he joined Crimson, not Union.

My latest modest proposal is that, since the Hall itself is a limited physical space, they kick out a former member for each new, improved inductee: Elvis for Cher, Hendrix for Lenny Kravitz, Beatles for Oasis and so forth. This will hopefully prevent defunct and dead acts from resting on their laurels.

I realized years ago that Oasis are my favourite musical act that I generally assume I hate. This goes beyond personal distaste to a general lack of musical respect, but nonetheless a lot of their songs, not necessarily the hits, have a mild but definite appeal to me on some pre-intellectual level. But I can't ignore that layer of antipathy, so I'm voting for A Tribe Called Quest, partly thanks to the recent insights reading Hanif Abdurraqib's Go Ahead in the Rain.

I probably feel the same way about a lot of recording artists as I do about Oasis - I generally don't like them, but there'll be an album or some window of recording activity that I actually enjoy, and if nothing else in their career happened, I'd probably consider myself a fan of their work. Had Oasis imploded in early or mid 1996, they would've left two fine albums and quite a bit of fine B-side/non-LP material IMHO. I'd still be reluctant to call them great - they'd still sound too derivative - but it would be a consistently strong (if small) body of work.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Dave Matthews Band 2

I wished I voted for MJB - last place with no votes is just wrong.

If the top six get in, it would be the best group of inductees in a very long time.

been checking out early Kool & the Gang lately, particularly Live at PJs and my god they were an amazing jazzy funk band at that point

They were great until that shitehawk JT joined.

I used to hear "Celebration" at way too many 'grown up' parties when I was a kid (i.e. the ones held for the parents). When I eventually discovered "Jungle Boogie" through Pulp Fiction, I couldn't believe they were the same guys.

(Mostly the same guys I should say)

The current fan vote totals are extra unsurprising:

 Dave Matthews Band 391,749
Foreigner 349,366
Peter Frampton 346,007
Ozzy Osbourne 344,789
Cher 240,383
Lenny Kravitz 215,639
Kool & the Gang 192,692
Mariah Carey 191,224
Oasis 126,190
Sinéad O'Connor 119,123
Sade 115,837
Jane's Addiction 102,218
Mary J. Blige 83,881
A Tribe Called Quest 66,410
Eric B. & Rakim 41,010

Well, I take that back. I'm a little surprised Oasis are beloved K&TG and Mariah

beloved below

barf @ those results

under the table and barfing

Pretty awful, for sure. If the Shangri-Las or New York Dolls were on there, guessing they'd get 17 votes between them.

The public likes A Tribe Called Quest more than ILX does: 66,410 votes to 19!

I must've woken up on Bizarro Earth - those results are clearly backwards.

NYMag's Vulture interviewed two anonymous voters again:

https://www.vulture.com/article/rock-hall-of-fame-voters-anonymous-2024-ballots.html

I think this is the third time they've done this, possibly with different voters each time out (I can't be sure, but the tone of last year's interviewees was pretty different from the year before). IIRC, only a few of their enthusiastic choices usually get voted in, and this year you see that reflected in their responses. (Both are big supporters of Eric B. & Rakim and especially A Tribe Called Quest, my top two picks as well, but they're also skeptical that enough voters will cast a vote for them.) Two to six voters isn't a big sampling size, but the ones NYMag has talked to sound like rock critics rather than iHeart employees (who do vote and have given interviews elsewhere) - it feels like another sign that the corporate presence in the voting pool has grown substantially given how poorly NYMag's interviewees have been doing with their picks.

possibly with different voters each time out

Can confirm. (I was one of the voters interviewed the first two times they did it.)

2024 Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Inductees to Be Revealed Live on ‘American Idol’

The 2024 inductees into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame will be announced live coast-to-coast during a Rock Hall-themed episode of American Idol on Sunday (April 21).

The inductees will be announced by American Idol host Ryan Seacrest along with judge (and 2022 Rock Hall inductee) Lionel Richie. The episode will air 8-10:01 p.m. ET and 5-7:01 p.m. PT on ABC, with a repeat scheduled for 8-10:01 p.m. PT on the West Coast.

American Idol: Still on the air, apparently! Who knew?

Blech, that says a lot. I guess Mariah Carey is a lock since she helped established their template of oversinging and focusing more on your own voice rather than how to best serve the material you’re trying to interpret.

Also, best selling female artist of all time - I mean that's what a Hall of Fame is for.

these fucking clueless mariah takes which haven't changed for decades

I guess she's been interpretating her own material wrong all this time

neither of the voters int he vulture piece seemed to realize that she wrote all her own hits

How dare anyone not conform to poptimism orthodoxy! To the Guillotine! Rockists to the gulags!
xp

wild that people still think she popularised gospel runs and melismas in pop (no that was fucking rock n roll), that they're a bad thing, that they're superfluous to the songs, that they're all her music is about, that she even does them much any more or ever relied on them as much as people like voter 1 (who seems unable to tell her from whitney) always claim

shut the fuck up about poptimism

the kneejerk mariah bashing gets to me because it was so relentless outside of pop/r&b/gay circles for so long and I thought the tide had turned in recent years and it's always just the same lazy superficial shit

I'd put Mariah Carey in too. But I certainly wouldn't flip out if someone thought she shouldn't be. "The tide had turned"--sweeping up every last person on earth?

Yes, isn't 35 years long enough for everyone to have made their decision about her? (Except me, I remain agnostic.) And I suspect "pop/r&b/gay circles" would have some pretty well-worn criticisms of those members of the Rock Hall that don't meet their standards.

wild that people still think she popularised gospel runs and melismas in pop (no that was fucking rock n roll), that they're a bad thing, that they're superfluous to the songs, that they're all her music is about

otm see also for example stevie wonder

"the kneejerk Yes bashing gets to me because it was so relentless outside of prog-rock circles for so long and I thought the tide had turned in recent years and it's always just the same lazy superficial shit"

American Idol: Still on the air, apparently! Who knew?

― Instead of create and send out, it pull back and consume (unperson), Monday, April 15, 2024 10:40 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Only 3 more years until the first American Idol contestants are eligible for the HoF

“Some people wait a lifetime 25 years after the release of their first record / For a moment like this”

I’m happy we’ve finally found a venue brave enough to recognize Mariah Carey.

Always Be My Baby came on the other day and i sang along reflexively. I love 90s Mariah, didn't keep up as much in the 21st century though that's not an indictment, I just don't know the material.

I suspect "pop/r&b/gay circles" would have some pretty well-worn criticisms of those members of the Rock Hall that don't meet their standards

Yeah, but those criticisms are right

I bet there are also significant numbers of Aretha or Minnie Riperton fans who also aren't fond of Mariah.

I hated Mariah Carey when she emerged, with exceptions ("Someday," "Fantasy," "My All"), but then I came out and wisdom descended on me.

Always Be My Baby came on the other day and i sang along reflexively. I love 90s Mariah, didn't keep up as much in the 21st century though that's not an indictment, I just don't know the material.

This happened to me last week but with "Shake It Off."

condolences

I wish people talked more about minnie riperton as well! and talked better about aretha franklin! and the presence or both in mariah's music but especially minnie

not sure why I was so aggro earlier probably mostly about something else but for some reason mariah carey was the musical bogeywoman for all the indie nerds I used to know and I don't get it. kind of but not really. wouldn't be surprised if some of them got on board by the time caution came out and then realized how great the glitter soundtrack was and how it bridged older r&b and later mixtape culture and now stans

*are now stans

Mariah has received a lot of misogynist/rockist/stupid criticism, particularly after the New Year's debacle that wasn't her fault. So I get being defensive about her

I think she’s cool as an icon/cultural figure/etc., I’ve just never connected with her music… her voice doesn’t hit for me, for whatever reason (and I love pop/r&b vocals). I’m not an RRHOF voter, though.

I'll give the '90s hits another shot (or any deep cuts that might be overlooked) but her records haven't connected with me either. I listen to a LOT of R&B and soul, especially my favorite Aretha, and also a good deal of gospel like Mahalia Jackson. I won't deny that Carey has an extremely impressive vocal range, but so far her singing just leaves me cold and comes off as simply stentorian. I doubt doubt there are "rockists" who are prejudiced, but as Halfway mentioned, it's completely inaccurate to say anyone who isn't taken by her music is doing so out of an inclination for rock music. What I love most about Aretha, or Mavis, or Mahalia, or Nina Simone or Jill Scott or Erykah Badu and on and on aren't qualities I usually hear in the rock music I listen to - if anything, I'm much more likely to hear them to varying degrees in jazz, if at all.

i'm sure Mariah will get in, i liked her debut album well enough though i was never really in love with it enough to want to follow her career after that. it's hard to get too worked up about her, she's pretty likable and such a massive figure in pop music that it objectively makes sense for her to be inducted.

Ambient w/ Mariah vox, love this

https://midnightmoontapes.bandcamp.com/track/transparency

"Focusing more on your own voice rather than how to best serve the material you’re trying to interpret" is absolutely a criticism that could be levelled at Mahalia Jackson or Aretha Franklin too - I wouldn't, but their voices are often front and centre just as much as Mariah's ever been - and as a critique of melisma I think it's rockist regardless of whether the ppl making it like rock music or not.

it's a criticism that could be levelled at john coltrane

I wouldn't call it rockist but I would call it a misunderstanding of certain kinds of R&B. I suspect this thread has enough people who grew up in the '90s not knowing what to do with Whitney Houston either. Aaliyah was not in that Houston-Carey tradition. Mary J. Blige, Toni Braxton, Deborah Cox -- they belted or under-sang as the occasion demanded.

What I love most about Aretha, or Mavis, or Mahalia, or Nina Simone or Jill Scott or Erykah Badu and on and on aren't qualities I usually hear in the rock music I listen to - if anything, I'm much more likely to hear them to varying degrees in jazz, if at all.

Her biggest hit of the '00s has cool unexpected stresses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrRj_FXclKQ

i like Whitney Houston but never really got Mariah, I then Houston is a better singer by far

I love Mary J too, I dunno Mariah leaves me cold

Same here re: Whitney… her appeal, I totally get.

I think one of the arguments for Mariah in the HOF, apart from her massive sales and chart success, is her role in fusing pop/R&B with hip-hop starting in the mid-1990s. (You can make the same argument for Mary J. Blige, obv.)

What I love most about Aretha, or Mavis, or Mahalia, or Nina Simone or Jill Scott or Erykah Badu

by “rockist” i think everyone’s saying your argument is based on bullshit standards of authenticity

, is her role in fusing pop/R&B with hip-hop starting in the mid-1990s. (You can make the same argument for Mary J. Blige, obv.)

― jaymc, Wednesday, April 17, 2024 9:08 AM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i mean you can make a much better case for Mary and many others who got there when Mariah was still doing vision of love type stuff not to mention all the new jack swing stuff, jody watley, many others, if anything she was chasing a trend not setting it

Sure, but that's like saying Bowie and Madonna deserves less credit for chasing trends. It doesn't matter -- they popularized it, individualized them.

Besides, Carey was outselling Blige by 10 to 1, not that Mary was a sales slouch.

i mean en vogue fer chrissakes, "hold on" was out in 1990

well, okay so one minute she's setting a trend according to the mariah hive, i point out that it is incorrect, then she's david bowie reimagining these trends

also all the stuff i mentioned was super popular! not just mary j

i like mary j more than mariah but i can't imagine a mary j fan not liking the emancipation of mimi. as alfred shared above, that album really does play against a lot of the things that seem to bother mariah's haters in this thread

i don't hate mariah i just don't really see what the big deal is

also people keep inventing things that are ahistorical and it's annoying

I respect and admire what Carey does, from writing to production (including choice of collaborators) to performance. That doesn't mean I want to listen to the results. Does she belong in the Hall of Fame, according to the standard-of-having-no-standards that it has established for itself over four decades now? Absolutely.

smh @ mariah still being blamed for the crimes of tommy mottola

(making her look late to the party)

I guess this is how people feel when I shit on madonna

i don't hate mariah, she has some good songs, she's a good pop artist. i personally don't love her stuff though and -- caveats about what unperson says like at this point why shouldn't she be in given who else has gotten in -- i don't think she's a great artist overall

Sure you have to do some artistic gatekeeping to keep Crazy Frog and the Macarena out, but it just seems absurd to have a Hall of Fame without your best selling female artist.

keep Crazy Frog and the Macarena out

Whoa, not so fast, the important thing is to avoid bullshit standards of authenticity

Crazy Frog

hey, that's not a nice thing to say about inductee Gene Simmons

"Focusing more on your own voice rather than how to best serve the material you’re trying to interpret" is absolutely a criticism that could be levelled at Mahalia Jackson or Aretha Franklin too - I wouldn't, but their voices are often front and centre just as much as Mariah's ever been - and as a critique of melisma I think it's rockist regardless of whether the ppl making it like rock music or not.

I have nothing against melisma in general and didn't say anything against it. It doesn't make sense to argue against a standard vocal trick or really any musical trick, it's ridiculous why that assumption was shoved in there upthread. I should rephrase by what I mean by focus: when I say focus more on your own voice, I don't mean simply making your instruments the center of attention - if anything most music is arranged that way where some instrument becomes THE center, especially when they have to solo. I think we're mostly disagreeing with the choices being made when the singer has the spotlight on them, and ultimate it's more about taste and not some other overall agenda. It definitely isn't about "authenticity" as someone else tried to argue upthread - that's not even remotely what I'm trying to say at all. If me, you or anyone simply doesn't connect with the way a singer phrases a song or puts a lyric across, what else is there to say? A lot of singers may pick out similar tricks from the same arsenal, but they're not all clones of each other - they choose to use them in different ways. They all have a different sense of musical taste or a different way of processing what they're doing to the material they're interpreting.

One of my favorite singers, Annie Lennox, sometimes annoys me by adding vocal runs where I think none are required; but it isn't what Mariah Carey does at her best.

If me, you or anyone simply doesn't connect with the way a singer phrases a song or puts a lyric across, what else is there to say?

Nothing much, which is why I think it's misguided to try to theorize this preference as being about the artist focusing on their voice as opposed to the material. :) I'll admit this puts me dangerously close to "it's like dancing about architecture" territory, but introducing this kind of intentionality suggests there's something specific about the approach beyond individual connection.

To be fair, it does get into a common trap when someone criticizes something they don't particularly like. (Ex: "I hate this group because they all sound like they're trying to impress each other." I say this with confidence because I know exactly what they're all thinking.) We're ultimately reacting to the singer's musical taste - I don't mean musical in a broad sense like style or genre, but musical as in "I want to draw this verse out" or "let's slow this down" or "I'm going to belt the chorus out because it needs it." Not that any of that's necessarily articulated, it's probably mostly instinctual and the singer just does it.

"Always Be My Baby" was playing in Vons earlier... Do do doop do doop da dum

The 2024 inductees:

Mary J. Blige
Cher
Foreigner
Peter Frampton
Kool & the Gang
Dave Matthews Band
Ozzy Osbourne
A Tribe Called Quest

Musical Excellence category:

Jimmy Buffett
MC5
Dionne Warwick
Norman Whitfield

Musical Influence Award:

Alexis Korner
John Mayall
Big Mama Thornton

good for tribe, no need to watch this year!

Dionne!

MC5!

Happy Dionne Warwick's been recognized (never mind a couple of those names on the induction list--ugh), but it still feels like the side door. With the baseball HOF, I think that after enough time passes, the distinction between election by the writers and election by the veteran's committee starts to fade. I know Chick Hafey's a HOF'er, but I'd have to check to see how he got in there. I don't know if the same dynamic is true for the Rock and Roll HOF. I hope so.

i'll take dionne in the hall any way she can get in, and "musical excellence" actually makes sense for her. one of the all-time great voices. (but, um, jimmy buffett, wut.)

total number of women who have been honored for musical excellence in the 24 years the category has existed: three.

dionne. chaka khan. patti scialfa. they, collectively, are the only musically excellent women in the history of rock (and hip-hop, r&b, pop, etc) according to the rock and roll hall of fame.

total number of men honored for musical excellence *this year*: seven.

I don't know Alexis Korner's music--I know the name--but John Mayall and Big Mama Thornton are good influence picks.

When categories outside the main Performer category were called Early Influence and Sidemen, it definitely felt like the inductees were in a different tier. Those categories were created for people who *wouldn't* typically be considered otherwise. But now that they've been renamed Musical Influence and Musical Excellence (names that are vaguer in their intention) and include inductees who'd previously been nominated in the main category, I think there's less of a distinction to be made. To the extent that anyone actually does think about this stuff, I doubt that Chaka Khan and Kraftwerk will seem like they have asterisks next to their name.

Alexis Korner helped get the Stones together, and as a Brit Blues guy he predates even Mayall...probably influenced him too.

I doubt that Chaka Khan and Kraftwerk will seem like they have asterisks next to their name.

they will live on with a different kind of asterisk, which will denote "artists the hall's voters were too dumb to vote for."

(xpost) Read up on him a bit--said the first band Mayall joined in the early '60s was fronted by two guys trying to emulate Korner.

jaymc, sounds very much like how the VC functions for the baseball HOF: to make amends for people who were on the writer's ballot but passed over. I assume it's also a separate (and much smaller) body of people that chooses Musical Excellence? The biggest problem with baseball's VC committee has always been ex-players and managers voting in friends...a non-issue with the R&R HOF, I'm guessing, partly because we know Kraftwerk doesn't have friends.

I mean Mayall and Alexis are fine but a lot of that British blues stuff feels like NBA players who played when the league was still segregated

The 2024 inductees:

Mary J. Blige
Cher
Foreigner
Peter Frampton
Kool & the Gang
Dave Matthews Band
Ozzy Osbourne
A Tribe Called Quest

A rock and roll Murders’ Row. As an accelerationist, I strongly approve of these inductees.

I love the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame voters because they make the Baseball Hall of Fame voters look sensible. Every year we complain about the handful of baseball voters using their votes to ax grind, but the rock and roll voters exclusively ax grind. It’s incredible.

Musical Excellence category:

MC5

― Instead of create and send out, it pull back and consume (unperson), Monday, 22 April 2024 00:51 (fourteen hours ago) link

Classic HOF timing, right after Wayne Kramer and John Sinclair die

foreigner is one of the worst bands of all time

i guess they're the harold baines of the rock hall

apt!

You're a lot more charitable than I am when it comes to Foreigner, Dave Matthews, and even Peter Frampton, zillion-dollar live album notwithstanding--Colby Rasmus, maybe.

yeah baines was a useful player for a while, apologies to him

Foreigner is Dante Bichette, superficially impressive replacement level types. basically a boring Journey. zero hate bc i feel nothing.

lmao at Dante Bichette reference, thanking you

Dave Matthews Band is Dave Valle

Classic HOF timing, right after Wayne Kramer and John Sinclair die

― chr1sb3singer, Monday, April 22, 2024 11:15 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol my first thought too, almost feels vaguely insulting

“waiting for a girl like you” is probably the greatest piece of music ever recorded but foreigner is pretty meh otherwise

this is the RNR HOF we get, they're starting to lean more heavily on the most basic corporate retreat rock music over the stuff that hits really hard. i know i bang on about Foo Fighters a lot but i think it's because they kind of represent that trend, they're basically just a band that really is a major zero. kind of the new Foreigner vs being a worthy Nirvana successor. i guess like Foreigner they have probably two great songs.

it's nice to see Tribe and KATG and Mary J get in, and Ozzy put out enough classic solo material for me to be cool with it.

i don't even care that Sinead or Sade didn't make it, they can carry on above and beyond that shit forever.

Above and beyond alliteration, Foreigner/Foo Fighters is a good match.

i say yay Foreigner for Lou Gramm only :D

Ian McDonald joining the Hall as a member of Foreigner and not King Crimson is the craziest oddity of this batch.

“waiting for a girl like you” is probably the greatest piece of music ever recorded but foreigner is pretty meh otherwise

it’s ok, that 5-chord transition into the chorus is heavenly tho

Dollar Bin Heroes (With POLLS In Their Eyes!): The Best...and Beyond of Foreigner

I would’ve enjoyed Sinead to be chosen just as a fist in the face of christianity but we can’t win them all.

it just seems absurd to have a Hall of Fame without your best selling female artist

That would be Madonna by far, followed by Céline Dion. And you know Céline isn’t ever going to be even nominated.

I'm seeing Celine placing well outside the top 5 best-selling female artists, but no, I also don't see them nominating Rihanna any time soon either

such a drag to see the daveheads finally get their way

rihanna will get in when the millennials take over in 2050 or so if this thing is still staggering on

it might have become an actual religion by that point (is rockism taken?)

All too well

I'm seeing Celine placing well outside the top 5 best-selling female artists

Depends if your talking global or US. Even there, she's at least Top 5.

She's #7 according to this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists

I always thought Rihanna would breeze in (up for election in 2030). Critical support (however you define it) seems to matter less and less, but I think she's had more than Mariah Carey, no? (Who, again, I would have put in--though behind Sinead O'Connor.)

Give Taylor a couple weeks and I think she knocks Celine out of the 5

Critical support (however you define it) seems to matter less and less, but I think she's had more than Mariah Carey, no?

To the extent that this is true, I think it's only because Rihanna emerged at a time when critics were less snobby about Mariah's style of pop music. In retrospect, it's insane that the first time Mariah placed on a Pazz & Jop singles list was "We Belong Together" in 2005. So yeah, Rihanna received more critical love from the jump -- for her singles, at least. At the same time, none of her albums are higher than a 75 on Metacritic (even though I know that people think ANTI was a masterpiece). So it's hard for me to see her as a shoo-in, especially now that Mariah -- who's been around long enough to be considered an icon -- didn't make it.

"Mariah's style of pop music" should probably be "certain styles of pop music." Obv. Rihanna isn't working in the same vein as Mariah, other than the broad genre of pop/R&B. I suppose if Rihanna had debuted in 1990, she might have been appreciated by the same critics who derided Mariah Carey. But I also think that by the time she did debut in the mid-2000s, there weren't as many critical barriers.

I think that's all true, but I will point out that TLC did well through the '90s on Pazz & Jop singles voting, even if Mariah Carey didn't:

1992 - #12
1993 - #4 & #8
1999 - #1 & #12

Outside of TLC, not much inside the Top 10.

I think Rihanna would have well too, but just a guess.

(Not much female pop/R&B, that is.)

TLC is way better than Mariah Carey so there's that

hashtag stop pitting r&b women against each other clap emoji

"Fantasy" not making the '95 Pazz & Jop list pretty well invalidates it so far as I'm concerned

xpost no

stop pitting r&b women against each other

? That's like half of ILM posting, artist A vs. artist B, across every conceivable genre there is.

I doubt TLC would even claim that

the critical rap on rihanna was that she was too cold as if she was supposed to break for them or something

anti is thoroughly canonised at this point and I'd let her in just for that but there are others who should probably go first namely mariah but also britney, beyonce, bjork, tori amos, pj harvey, d'angelo, what happened it's like the 90s are just dave grohl and pearl jam to these people

...we do it with films, baseball players, pizza, politicians, everything.

my least favorite genre of ilm posting even though I'm complicit

I know we've done how fucking racist the early influences category is but jesus christ. and of course they did robert johnson way before ma rainey and bessie smith, fuck you clapton

just amalgamate it for god's sake wenner's no longer there making sure rock is white enough for his liking

I hate that I care about this thing

it's like the 90s are just dave grohl and pearl jam to these people

And Dave Matthews Band too, but yes, this is the exact profile of a typical R&R HOF voter

They do have other blind spots. Husker Du and the Replacements should 1000% be in there. Reconciling the absence of those two bands with what I'm guessing is the perception of the typical voter is not easy.

(I should have checked before posting that. I know Husker Du isn't--that'll look pretty stupid if the Replacements are in there...I don't think so.)

Also Pixies and Smashing Pumpkins, but they would all have to be nominated first.

Mats aren't believe me this state would have shut down for a week

I would love husker du to get in and I hope the window doesn't close for them because younger folks seem less aware of them (I think they could definitely attract new fans if folks got a little less squeamish talking about how very queer their music is instead of just downplaying it as music by people who happen to be queer)

replacements sure they're important or whatever I don't get it maybe you had to be there but throw em on the pile

Mats aren't believe me this state would have shut down for a week

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, April 25, 2024 3:02 PM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Jim Walsh immolated himself in front of the HOF in protest of the snub

I doubt the breeders will beat pixies in there but I would love that

has the gen x takeover happened yet or is it still in progress? there is a surprising lack of alt grunge indie stuff aside from the big basic boomer approved highlights and there is such deep bench to pull from even if you want to stick to rockist principles

Gen X will get skipped cuz the boomers won't die off, just like everything else

I guess the RS-approved rap classics is the gen x coming through but it's such a slog and millennials will be ancient by the time we make our voices heard by finally inducting britney or taylor or whoever

Dionne Warwick's in now, and for the time being, I'm giving up on Husker Du/Replacements/Shangri-Las/(and, quirkier, Tommy James). My new #1 HOF project: the Pet Shop Boys.

(What I mean by "project," by the way, is that I'll be travelling the continent and visiting voters one-by-one with a slide show presentation on why the PSB should be elected.)

"In my many, many years as a writer and editor, nobody — nobody — has ever mentioned Osbourne’s solo work to me. No one’s wanted to review an album or cover a show. No one’s ever said, “Hey, you should hear this track on the new Ozzy album.” I don’t even remember ever reading a review of one of his albums or hearing one of his solo songs played on the radio, and of course none of his albums has ever turned up in the Pazz & Jop poll."

So here in the annual update to his Vulture ranking of the most to least worthy RRHoF inductees, Chicago's very own Bill Wyman is eager to let you know that he's savvy, he's been around the block, and so forth. But it would appear that he's not so savvy, or indeed at all self-aware, that he can't stand back and notice that the above passage, which appears in the 254th spot, only besting his placing for Stevie Nicks at 255, echoes Pauline Kael's infamously blinkered "Nixon couldn't have won, no one I know voted for him" remark. Surely the unassailably urbane Mr. Wyman knows of the chink in Kael's cognitive armor! Is it so challenging to update this list that he doesn't have time to examine his own assumptions? Or is he kinda dim, as Steve Albini suggested 30 years ago?

Wyman also doesn't like music that strays very far from rockist verities. Going through his ranking, he sneers dismissively w/r/t hard rock, metal, pop metal, post Clash english popular music nominally associated with rock, music chiefly made with synthesizers, pop soul, dance music, and only gives credit to hip-hop because he knows its a bad look to dislike the great step forward in popular music initiated and still controlled in 2024 by black people. So he seems to be on the younger end of the Dave Marsh wing of rock critics, who saw Springsteen, Petty, Coug and 80s roots rock as the course correction back to the stones, dylan, Motown/Stax values that had been compromised in the 1970s, and almost literally saw any deviation as such as a corrupt fraud.

But I will give him credit, quite a lot, for his suggestion in his now updated intro, that the nominating committee should dispense with the backdoor "award for musical excellence" boondoggle. If they don't get the desired results because the electorate is too dumb (and the RRHoF electorate is really really dumb, a bunch of bizzers and proud members of the Dave Marsh wing of rockcrit mentioned above) to recognize Kraftwerk and MC5 as such, then they should say "we are the nominating committee, these two or three artists are going in alongside the very popular nominees voted in by the shitheads, Why? because we say so, suck my dick if you don't like it. we're not breaking any laws, this is not a matter of grave global import, this is fucking show business."

I guess Wyman probably knows a higher percentage of Rock Hall voters than Kael knew voters in the presidential election, so his surprise (as an “industry guy”) doesn’t seem totally blinkered to me…

like who really knows Ozzy Ozbourne, other than that Gravy Train song which only saw life due to its use in dog food commercials, he was always known as the guy who replaced Dio in Black Sabbath and recorded Load.

I guess Wyman probably knows a higher percentage of Rock Hall voters than Kael knew voters in the presidential election, so his surprise (as an “industry guy”) doesn’t seem totally blinkered to me…

Nah, this is complete idiocy on Wyman's part. The industry loves the Osbournes. Even beyond the sheer numbers Ozzy's put on the board for five decades-plus, Sharon is royalty: her father was Don Arden, a high-powered London music biz guy.

Ozzy is practically his own economy in the metal scene

Where does he rank Dave Matthews Band? (I found the article but there's a paywall...)

yeah, what would he say?

"In my many, many years as a writer and editor, nobody — nobody — has ever mentioned Osbourne’s solo work to me. No one’s wanted to review an album or cover a show. No one’s ever said, “Hey, you should hear this track on the new Ozzy album.” I don’t even remember ever reading a review of one of his albums or hearing one of his solo songs played on the radio, and of course none of his albums has ever turned up in the Pazz & Jop poll."

imagine being an alleged radio listener and never hearing any Ozzy solo

was Ozzy the guy that used to put on those DIY Ozzfest house shows?

tbh the whole project of being a "rock critic" just seems embarrassing and pointless

as does the idea of the RnR HOF. idk

imagine being an alleged radio listener and never hearing any Ozzy solo

Ozzy is the only guy that was there when the Rock Radio chart started in 1980-81 who's still charting there today.

be easy on the guy, his mental wounds are still screaming and its driving him insane

xps That was a really weird take on Ozzy. Long before I knew anything about Black Sabbath (including who they were), I knew who Ozzy Osbourne was, and this was even before reality TV happened. He was that ubiquitous in the culture and no one in my household listened to metal or hard rock.

also lol at:

nwa at #239:

I know that Dre is one of music’s most important producers; he’s also a guy who beats up women.

chuck berry at #1:

As a person, he was less than ideal. But still: One of the most consequential American cultural figures of the 20th century.

Long before I knew anything about Black Sabbath (including who they were), I knew who Ozzy Osbourne was, and this was even before reality TV happened.

same, I know "of" Black Sabbath but they were Ozzy's old band to me, I didn't hear them until much later

I didn't even know Ozzy was in Black Sabbath until I was a teen, as I was a late bloomer to all forms of heavy rock.

embarrassed to say I found out when I borrowed one of dad's old Sabbath records (who, btw, he didn't even like, so I never gave them back), and saw his name on it and said...what, the "Perry Mason" singer guy?

weird that was the first song I thought of, but it was in fact the first one of his I heard knowingly.

every time people talked about "Crazy Train" I couldn't figure out what song they were talking about, and kept mistakenly thinking it was "Have a Cigar" because the way Roger Waters sings 'gravy train' sounded like 'crazy train' to my terrible ears.

nobody would have believed 13-year old me and 43-year old me are related

This might've been my first real exposure to Ozzy - like I didn't know his music or what he even sounded like when he just talked until they did this post-9/11 bit on Conan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9QoZgW-Qa0

the making breakfast scene on Decline of Western Civilization was definitely the origin of his transformation into America's loveably addled rock dad

I think the first time I heard Crazy Train was when erstwhile ilxor hstencil performed it karaoke in like 2002.

I was a kid at the time, but I remember when No More Tears came out and it was about as big on Rock Radio as contemporary releases like the Use Your Illusions, The Black Album, Nevermind, and Ten.

"Crazy Train," "No More Tears," and that Lita Ford duet were the only Ozzy songs I knew for a long time.

yeah, "No More Tears" earned massive MTV airplay during the Year of Nirvana.

pretty legendary performance of No More Tears on the Live and Loud video too that I think got play on MTV

It's funny to hear people a little younger than me talk about Ozzy or Sabbath. I became aware of Sabbath not long before "Neon Knights" came out, definitely knew of Ozzy and mistakenly assumed it was him singing on that. Vividly remember when Randy Rhoads died because it happened in Florida where I lived and iirc Ozzy's next show was supposed to be in Miami.

Yep!

"Close My Eyes Forever" is Ozzy's only AT40 hit in America btw

"Close My Eyes Forever" is Ozzy's only AT40 hit in America btw

Not true! "Mama, I'm Coming Home" hit #28. (Lemmy was probably exaggerating, but he said he made more money from writing the lyrics to that song than he did from anything Motörhead-related.)

Oh, missed it.

9-year-old me obsessively listening to pop radio was a huge “Mama, I’m Coming Home” fan and never heard “No More Tears” that I can recall until listening to it right now. Doesn’t sound familiar though it certainly would fit right in with Use Your Illusion’s songs

was very hard to divest that song from Johnson and Johnson products

No More Tears was definitely everywhere for a really long time after it was released, it was one of the inner circle staples of hard rock radio. And unlike a lot of tracks which received considerable airplay in that genre at the time, it's still does really sound good.

I did scan through Wyman's list, and the guy is a pretty lousy writer based on that. Even when I agree with the most superficial points he's making, he offers nothing of interest to back any of it up.

"In my many, many years as a writer and editor, nobody — nobody — has ever mentioned Osbourne’s solo work to me.

because you are a herb and people do not wanna hang with you and know they'd be wasting their breath

no use for this guy

There's no getting around the dubious concept of a rank listicle, but to Wyman's credit, he does make something out of it - forget the inductee assessments, the meat of that thing is really the ridiculous history behind the Hall of Fame that's detailed in piecemeal. Just an excerpt drawn from a handful of entries:

Joe Hagan says the hall of fame was first conceived by a cable entrepreneur, Bruce Brandwen, who outlined the basic structure of the hall, proposed an annual TV show, and enlisted Ahmet Ertegun...Ertegun and Jann Wenner conspired together to wait out the five-year contract Brandwen had, and then took the organization over. Wenner later dismissed Brandwen as part of “a bunch of hucksters.” The inevitable lawsuit was settled out of court. Bruce Conforth, the hall’s first curator, told me that an early benefit concert featuring the Who and billed as a benefit for the hall actually raised money to pay off that settlement...

From the start, Conforth says, said, his work was hampered by a division between the Cleveland folks, who’d put up the money and had the best interests of Cleveland and the hall’s success in mind, and the New York people, most of whom didn’t want the hall in Cleveland in the first place. “The people from New York thought their shit didn’t stink,” Conforth says. “They were rich New York elite artsy-fartsy hip people who knew what was going on. They figured the Cleveland people were a bunch of rubes who couldn’t tell the time of day. The Cleveland people hated the New York people because they didn’t give the Cleveland people any respect and were always telling Cleveland people what to do, even though the Cleveland folks came up with all the money. The two boards really, really hated each other.”

I asked Conforth for an example of how the Cleveland–New York division manifested itself. He said that one day shortly after he started work he was abruptly summoned to meet with Wenner, so he dutifully boarded a plane to New York. “It was an official audience,” Conforth says drily. “It was at the new Rolling Stone’s offices [on Sixth Avenue]. Jann’s office was in the corner; it has glass windows on two sides; quite large, but sparsely decorated, with a huge desk in the corner. I was allowed to enter the inner sanctum. There’s Jann, barefoot. He sits down behind this huge desk, puts his bare feet upon the desk, looks at me, pulls out a cigarette, lights it, and says, ‘Now do you see where the real power lies?’”

Conforth, the curator, is a highly entertaining interview. He was a scholar who’d done his dissertation at Indiana on the San Francisco scene. He turned out not to be a good fit for the hall. One mistake he made, he allows, is requesting to work in Cleveland, which he thought made sense at the time but led to many of his decisions being overruled from New York. Even two decades later he remains amused at his tenure. It was plain from the start, he says, what the hall of fame’s mission was: “Here’s another way we get to masturbate in public and show the world how great we are.” The difficulties he had working for Wenner & Co. were such an open secret by the time he left that he received a call from the producers of the Oprah Winfrey Show. They wanted him to appear for a segment on “When Dream Jobs Become a Nightmare.”

only besting his placing for Stevie Nicks at 255, echoes Pauline Kael's infamously blinkered "Nixon couldn't have won, no one I know voted for him" remark.

Point of order: she never said that. Neither did Susan Sontag, whom that quote is also sometimes attributed to.