What is the correct way to count the beat on Ludacris' "Roll Out"?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DL8RhwVBveo

obviously option 3 IMO

god i forgot how much i love this song

NO, option #3 is def wrong (even though I used to hear it that way and had to fight to re-train my ear).

Posted about it here:
how much does the beat for kano's remember me sound like ludacris' roll out?

I've always known it was option #1/2 because of the backbeat and where the sections start, but my ear constantly wants to flip it to #3 because the first note of the horn riff sounds like a pickup. Which makes sense, because it's a salsa sample displaced to start on the downbeat -

i didn't realize ppl had trouble counting it

Anyway here's the definitive smoking gun, live version with count-off and everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6v4qkYpb8Q

opt 3 just seems like an engagement troll. opt 2 is just double time of opt 1. so i don't see (or hear) any controversy here. all you have to do is listen to the snare, which reliably marks 2 and 4

lmao 1 and 2 are functionally the same, it’s just a question of how much you want to subdivide

3 is wrong

because the feel of the song dictates the count not where the snare is located. there are dozens of timbaland songs with the snare on the two

"I used to hear it that way and had to fight to re-train my ear"

have you considered that the feel of the song is what determines the rhythm & not where they decided to put the drums ... if you dance to a song as if the 1 is in one spot that's where the one is

i didn't say the snare dictates what the count is, in this song or any other song. i just said that if for some weird reason you're confused about how to count this song, you can listen to the snare in this instance

it seems liek the controversy suggests people disagree about how to count the song, not that i'm 'confused' about how to count the song

lots of people on the internet are confused by very basic things tbf. and framing something as a "controversy" when there isn't one is Getting Clicks 101

i have never heard that there was any such controversy over this song. when he says what in the world is in that case, "world" is on the downbeat.

i used to have this issue with "linus & lucy" as a kid - i thought the beginning of the main phrase was on the downbeat, when it's actually an eighth note before the downbeat.

I’ve always heard it as 2

the sample convinced me that it’s actually option 1, but i think ludacris hears option 3, and messes with the bar line to have the emphasis on the 1 of option 3, which throws it all off-kilter

― gestures broadly at...everything (voodoo chili), Monday, July 14, 2025 1:34 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

This quote from Jordan's link kind of gets at the issue to me -- If ludacris is peforming the song as if it's option 3, surely there's a case the song itself (ludacris' contribution being a part of it) is in fact option 3

he def hits the word GLOCK as if its the one

and ONE
twin GLOCK

so you think Ludacris hears "what in the world is IN that case" as the downbeat???

I mostly hear it as 2 but it’s one of the (many) great aspects of this track that 3 also works easily

(I’m not sure I could tolerate someone persistently dancing to it at the tempo of 1)

I mostly hear it as 2 but it’s one of the (many) great aspects of this track that 3 also works easily

(I’m not sure I could tolerate someone persistently dancing to it at the tempo of 1)

i can sort of understand someone hearing the chorus melody in isolation and thinking it's option 3 — "twin" is the fifth, "glock" is the tonic

yes the way the chords are laid on the beat strongly suggests #3 interpretation

im not crazy for thinking this, if you go in the thread for every questlove insisting its 1/2 theres ppl like anderson paak and sango saying they hear it as 3

the song literally starts on the downbeat. idgi.

is this about how the vocals ride over the beat? or syncopation?

does the missing bass drum confuse people? sorry for 3x post

look, i am not surprised to hear that anderson paak can't find the downbeat

(I’m not sure I could tolerate someone persistently dancing to it at the tempo of 1)

― Tim F, Tuesday, July 29, 2025 2:27 PM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

option 1 hearers would interpret it as a halftime feel and would likely dance to the 8th notes (aka #2's quarter notes), so the tempo would seem the same

the sample convinced me that it’s actually option 1, but i think ludacris hears option 3, and messes with the bar line to have the emphasis on the 1 of option 3, which throws it all off-kilter

― gestures broadly at...everything (voodoo chili), Monday, July 14, 2025 1:34 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

This quote from Jordan's link kind of gets at the issue to me -- If ludacris is peforming the song as if it's option 3, surely there's a case the song itself (ludacris' contribution being a part of it) is in fact option 3

― ok (D-40), Tuesday, July 29, 2025 2:13 PM (thirty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

ya i think anyone who definitively says that it is one or the other is being unnecessarily rigid. like questlove said that he wouldn't want to play in a band with anyone who heard option 3...in that case, you would need to find a new rapper for the song lol

why would he need to find a new rapper?

again:

so you think Ludacris hears "what in the world is IN that case" as the downbeat???

― c u (crüt)

this lyric makes it pretty clear how ludacris hears the beat

yeah i have to agree

if he hears #3, his flow just makes a lot more sense imo. like it would make more conventional sense for the “roll out” to hit on the 3 and 4 than it would for it to hit on the 4 and 1, and for luda’s emphasis to hit on 1 instead of the 4-and

i disagree, i think it makes way more sense that he’s creating these interesting syncopations rather than performing mental gymnastics to make those syncopations seem more “natural” or something

it's not mental gymnastics, it is more natural

Yeah it’s the placement of the “roll out” vocal sample which is most strongly supportive of #3 I think

It’s cool that the song ostensibly works both ways because usually when you mishear the downbeat the song sounds insane

Deej, you're hearing it wrong. BUT that's ok, I totally get it and used to hear it wrong too. My ear wants to hear the first note of the salsa sample as a pickup and the second note as the downbeat, which makes total sense if you listen to the original (I linked it in that other thread) where it's on a totally different part of the phrase. Timbaland just plopped it down on the one.

I take an Occam's razor approach to these situations -- does it make more sense that all the snares are all displaced in a hit rap song, and that all the different sections (especially when the beat drops out) start on the 4 rather than the 1? Or does it make more sense that I was hearing it wrong, and that everything starts on the downbeat and all the snares are on the backbeat? I think the live version makes it an open & shut case. Listen to how they come in and out of the Big Pimpin' beat.

(also yes options 1 & 2 are exactly the same, just half-time or not).

it also doesn't mean he isn't creating interesting syncopations. the way he messes with the bar line, and flips to double-time every third bar are choices that other rappers might not have made.

Also I don't believe for a second that Ludacris hears option #3.

i think deej's point is if ludacris made a great song while "hearing it wrong" then did he really "hear it wrong" and is there a such thing as "wrong" in this context

I had this same issue with the Michael Jackson song 'You Rock My World', the bassline messes with my head and makes me hear beat 3 as the downbeat.

This is neither here nor there but for years I assumed “Lorenzo Kennett” was like a famous football player Luda was bragging about hanging out with

I dont get how crut's example makes anything more clear lol

I feel like Jordan has the same DRUMMER TUNNEL VISION questlove has here where the determining factor of the 'correct' beat is just how the drummer plays but imho the sample pulls the drums into its orbit rather than vice versa ... im basing that on just what the feel of the song is, where gravity is pulling the track

Also I don't believe for a second that Ludacris hears option #3.

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Tuesday, July 29, 2025 3:10 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

you think he's emphasizing words like GLOCK on the two? doesn't that seem like unusual emphasis for a rapper, to emphasize the two and not the one on your big hook ?

And I definitely know musicians in serious touring bands who have performed tunes while hearing the downbeat differently from each other. But I think that only really works if the arrangement is static. I implore y'all to watch this live video, just look at how he moves and pay attention to the dropouts and beat switch-ups -- Ludacris def does not hear option 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6v4qkYpb8Q

you think he's emphasizing words like GLOCK on the two? doesn't that seem like unusual emphasis for a rapper, to emphasize the two and not the one on your big hook ?

I think he's following the horn phrase, which is itself displaced, and that's what makes it feel unsettled. But it would be much more unusual to not have a backbeat, and to not bring the beat back on the 1 after dropping it out.

(i got my) is the pick up and TWIN is on the 1

xp

but he doesnt say TWIN he says twin GLOCK

well, not in the radio edit, lol but

I feel like Jordan has the same DRUMMER TUNNEL VISION questlove has here where the determining factor of the 'correct' beat is just how the drummer plays but imho the sample pulls the drums into its orbit rather than vice versa ... im basing that on just what the feel of the song is, where gravity is pulling the track

I know what you're saying here, but it's hip hop, the drums are everything and it's rhythm over harmony. I hear that same harmonic pull, but after I flipped it in my head everything makes much more sense.

I admit I have drummer tunnel vision because I can only hear #2. But I understand some people may hear #3 and it may have even been the intention of Timbaland and/or Ludacris to do it as #3

However, deej’s posts really have that defensive stench of “um, how can Ralph literally turn into a Viking, of course he’s inventing his own turn of phrase about his sleeping skills”

Oh boy rhythm that's where I'm a viking

GODDAMMIT

get xposted 4 times and look like the guy who just repeats what the Fonz said in class

xp like, check this out. the stopped time at 2:25. then everything comes back together on the 1 for the chorus: twin glock ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t21DFnu00Dc

(no idea about radio edit vs. dirty version)

I just mean on the radio edit the word glock is fully censored so its tougher to hear him emphasize it

oooh i see

i still think it is option 1 btw, the doubletime part of the verse only really makes sense with option 1

*Please* listen to that live performance I posted (thanks Jay Leno). Not only the Big Pimpin' section, but when they break it down to just drums at the very end, and bring the riff back for the ending.

(I love this thread btw)

my answer is that option 3 is technically wrong but spiritually correct

nb: i played brass in band

like i cannot fucking train my body to accept 1/2, it rejects the medicine, yes i know the snare belongs on the 2 and 4 in version 1 or on 3 in version 2, why is that fucking pickup note thats a 5thleading us into the root note on TWO then? thats not nice, do you know whats nice?
(pickup note) so (the one) MUCH money

btw you are more than welcome to call me a non downbeat knowing baby brain, theres a section of kratfwerk's "autobahn" that has a confusing downbeat that i cannot unlearn altho when i saw ralf and three german guys do it live it made sense in that arrangement

nb: i played brass in band

https://i.imgur.com/PTCnii0.png

sry but i learned that shit by ear!!

get that book learning bullshit outta here

I get it! I was talking about this with a friend who's a trumpet player and has a degree in classical performance, and option 3 never occurred to him. So weird, it's like an aural illusion/magic eye that only tricks some people.

I feel like when DJing it would sound *weirder* to blend records as if it were 1/2

prescriptivist/descriptivist

I have never heard this song before and it’s absurdly obvious that Option 3 is wrong. Whiney and Jordan (and everyone else agreeing w/them) otm. It’s got a similar feel to Roving Eye by the Contortions in a weird way (maybe not that weird once you trace influences)…

I feel like Jordan has the same DRUMMER TUNNEL VISION questlove has here where the determining factor of the 'correct' beat is just how the drummer plays but imho the sample pulls the drums into its orbit rather than vice versa ... im basing that on just what the feel of the song is, where gravity is pulling the track

― ok (D-40), Tuesday, July 29, 2025 4:15 PM (fifty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This argument works when you're piling beats in Ableton but not when you are leading a 7-piece band like in that Leno clip. Everyone kind of has to agree where "1" is.

You know that songs often don’t start on the “1” yeah? I hope?

Honestly this song <> Roving Eye would be a good segue

Piling samples and drums in ableton is how this song got into this mess (where the tonic hits on the two for no real reason

I agree that the band in the Leno clip is likely playing the song as if the drummer is the band leader and the one is what the drummer says it is. As a descriptivist I disagree that this is the “right” interpretation of the feel of the original song. (In fact the Leno performance sounds weirdly rushed to me)

I agree that the band in the Leno clip is likely playing the song as if the drummer is the band leader and the one is what the drummer says it is. As a descriptivist I disagree that this is the “right” interpretation of the feel of the original song. (In fact the Leno performance sounds weirdly rushed to me)

to try and untrain myself from option 3 ive started singing "meet george jetson" in place of "all my homies" and i still cannot move that downbeat back one when the sample plays.

It has a classic funk feel

I agree that the band in the Leno clip is likely playing the song as if the drummer is the band leader and the one is what the drummer says it is. As a descriptivist I disagree that this is the “right” interpretation of the feel of the original song. (In fact the Leno performance sounds weirdly rushed to me)

― ok (D-40), Tuesday, July 29, 2025 5:29 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Why would the entire band play the song in a way that Ludacris doesn't understand?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyzQhr3VSbI

what if the entire band counts it the way they want, and then, in Luda's earpiece, they count it the way he likes

that was fast

https://i.ibb.co/qFLbb08M/Screenshot-2025-07-29-175936.png

https://i.ibb.co/LhD44Qyz/Screenshot-2025-07-29-175936.png

I remember enjoying this video that'a a lot more incisive than some Instagram guy that doesn't know what eighth notes are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LgtXINpf6w

Another good one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weAmMgSD7ro

i'm thinkin option 3 people should take "their business" and "roll out" of this "ludicrous" thread

https://frinkiac.com/meme/S09E17/87920.jpg?b64lines=Km1lIHRyeWluZyB0byBoZWFyIApsdWRhY3JpcycgInJvbGwgb3V0IiBvbiBiZWF0KgoKIEhFWSwgU09NRSBPRiBVUyBBUkUgU1RJTEwKIFRSWUlORyBUTyBTT0xWRSBJVCEg

that is a good video. the first one

@glowinggrenade
4 years ago
I really like when music theory gets confused because an artist simply didn't give that much of a shit about specifics when making a beat.

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@N8DulcimerOld
4 years ago
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Yup. There is no actual reason that a song needs to have a downbeat and music can definitely be made without one, which is how i heard it. Its like when people argue about what key a song is in that doesnt have a clear key center, as if thats a necessary thing.

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@aislingoda6026
4 years ago
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music theory is about what the listener feels, not about what the artist intended when making it. all that's going on here is people have internalised different ways of feeling it

an interesting observation from reading a bunch of these comments is that I notice a lot of ppl who are 'dancers' siding with the 'off beat' camp

'as a dancer, I must say, the 5678 goes to OPTION 3'

the second video doesn’t engage with the flow at all, which doesn’t make any sense to me

regards to the live version, it makes sense that a group of musicians would have to figure out a downbeat to play a song together but idk what that has to do with the recorded version

I also saw some comment section where the guys are talking about how ludacris' dancing in videos AND how he performs the song seems to switch between both interpretations lol

I guess the best argument to me in favor of option 1 is that hip hop very, very frequently works at halftime

an interesting other observation is that uk drill (and some chicago drill beats DJ L did) actually do snare on the 2 but not the 4 all the time

(I think the defense of option 3 then -- related to its appeal to dancers -- would be that the song sounds refreshing in hip-hop set because it speeds up the tempo for more energetic dancers to stretch out a bit instead of being confined by half time)

If someone wants to AI me the stems I'll do a remix over the same drums, with the sample and chorus adjusted by one quarter note, lol.

lol i half considered just downloading the song and stem splitting it so i could finally feel it

The first video basically said that #1/2 meant aligning your listening to the drums and #3 meant you align your listen to the melody.

Hip-hop is based on drums so case closed imo

If the drums were krush groove I might agree but in this case I think the melody is the driving force of the song

Or the rapping which

The melody that is syncopated? The melody that intentionally emphasizes the off-beat?

Roll out? More like Troll Out

this thread is avoiding the real question, which is. “WHAT IN THE WORLD IS IN THAY BAG, WHAT YOU GOT IN THAT BAG?”

Definitely options 1/2 — I feel 1 more, but the feel varies with Luda’s flow, sometimes it feels more like 2. I understand the case for 3 but I just do not hear it that way.

Such a great song, what a beat. Timbaland in those years was unstoppable.

Or the rapping which
points to option 1/2

As someone in the comments of the video point out, he’s emphasizing GLOCK not because it’s on the downbeat but because he’s emulating the horn melody

I'm with paak, it's 3. listen to the loop from the very beginning of the song. the snare is on the 3.

i guess internet history is bound to repeat itself, first as a twitter debate with lenghty youtube explainers, then as an instagram reel with replies from famous musicians

having some issues with audio sync on the instagram reel so am a bit confused because I gather #3 is wrong from a musicological pov but the instrumental starts on the one and that's #3?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmfw8lv9YZk

Why would you assume the instrumental starts on the 1?

I mostly hear it as 2 but it’s one of the (many) great aspects of this track that 3 also works easily

(I’m not sure I could tolerate someone persistently dancing to it at the tempo of 1)

― Tim F, Tuesday, July 29, 2025 3:27 PM

Like one of the main strengths of this song musically is the syncopation … that it isn’t jamming on the 1!

god, that instrumental

I admit I have drummer tunnel vision because I can only hear #2. But

My drummer tunnel vision sees 1 and 2 as the same, because of the types of music I learned to play (e.g. the Contortions song I posted upthread) … 1 has like 16th notes and 2 has only 8th notes, so in the pragmatics of performance, it probably is “written” as 2.

I'm with paak, it's 3. listen to the loop from the very beginning of the song. the snare is on the 3.

― encino morricone (majorairbro), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:19 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

snare on the 3 is option 2. option 3 = "glock" on the downbeat.

Can someone post a youtube that includes a funk beat and a hemiola?

the dress is blue

I didn't think about this too critically or actually try to fit the lyrics, but I came to the conclusion that the lyrics are following a 8/4 or 16/8 signature regardless of what the band's doing and he happens to hop back to 4/4 when it tightens up

what in the world is in that case, what you got in that case??

My takeaway from this is that syncopation breaks people’s brains in interesting ways

8/4 or 16/8 signature regardless of what the band's doing and he happens to hop back to 4/4 when it tightens up

These are all the same thing, option 1 & 2 are the same thing, you're just talking about different rates in the same time signature. Option 3 is hearing the downbeat in a different spot.

Why would you assume the instrumental starts on the 1?

It doesn't have to, but it does in this case. But I thought you hear it as option 1/2 anyway? And anyway I find looking at where the sections change or what happens after the beat drops out a much more reliable tell than where a song starts. Like that MJ song I was talking about upthread, I had to ask myself if it's more plausible that it starts with a 6 beat intro and has a 2/4 bar before every chorus, or if I'm just hearing the phrase wrong?

My takeaway from this is that syncopation breaks people’s brains in interesting ways

I really don't think it's the syncopation that's doing it, I think it's more about the brain's relationship to functional harmony...I think it's that for some people, the first two quarter notes going from V to I really strongly tells them that beat 2 should actually be beat 1. But other people's brains have no trouble accepting the root on the second beat.

its weird, i can accept the V->I in the first two notes of the wedding march, but have to actively force myself to hear it that way for roll out. i listened to the live leno version and was able to click into the canonical interpretation bc there were some live drum cues to help guide me there (esp the cymbal crashes on the one) but when i listen to the original timbaland production, i think the kick drum pattern does a lot with the horns to make me feel at home with how i've always heard this song.

This song now soundtracks an American diaper commercial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqi-lBD60M8

Xp Jordan — the placement of the hi-hats is what does it for me. … as well as other rhythmic elements I associate with being on the off-beat … it’s weird to me that ilxors with an enthusiasm for a broad range of music don’t hear this, because it’s fairly common?

I can hear it that way, and I certainly listen to a ton of music that's felt on the upbeat and is highly syncopated, but feel confident that this huge hit rap song has a halftime backbeat.

Or the rapping which
points to option 1/2

― c u (crüt), Tuesday, July 29, 2025 9:05 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

You’re digging into the verses where he’s doing all kinds of different approaches to find evidence of this. On the actual chorus everything about the performance points to option 3

that's how you hear it, but that's not how i hear it!

These are all the same thing, option 1 & 2 are the same thing, you're just talking about different rates in the same time signature.

I was mostly goofing

I slide like m bison \oO/

Yea the wedding march I have the “correct” feel (V-I sounds fine) so I don’t think it’s *just* the chord movement

for a "descriptivist" you seem really intent on deciding the "correct" way to count this

It’s like the \oO/ you just posted… you are hearing the big O as the 1, when it’s actually not, but maybe you are hearing it that way because it is “bigger” because of the vocals?

Can someone post a version of 3 with a hard backbeat so I know what I’m supposed to be listening for

lol this thread is some kind of ILM apex, kudos all around

for a "descriptivist" you seem really intent on deciding the "correct" way to count this

― budo jeru, Wednesday, July 30, 2025 11:41 AM (twenty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

you said anyone with my perspective was just 'getting clicks' 'engagement troll' etc!

the certainty abt the Correctness of their position is coming from one side here (the guys who ie said theyd kick someone out of their band if they disagreed)

you want it to be one way, but it's the other way

it’s true i am certain that i am correct — but i am not going around calling myself a “descriptivist” like some kind of weasel

also i made my “clicks” point in response to the insta vid before i realized anyone sincerely heard it that way

you're conflating two things. i'm not a descriptivist about 'arguing' Im a descriptivist about whether the rules dictate who is 'correct' or the feel of the song dictates who is 'correct.' youre more of a 'if the snare is here then its this' prescriptivist. nothing 'weaselly' about observing your attempt to bank off the authority of The Rules

well, i didn’t say that although others might have. to reiterate, i think the drums match the feel. so hearing the drums as a half time beat with snares on 2 and 4 is a way to understand the feel of option 1 if it isn’t immediately obvious to you. i think there’s a lot more musical information beyond just the drums that supports this, tho

like for me, the feel of the song and how the song are counted are the same. so i’m not sure what your distinction means

it’s almost like you think i am denying some kind of overpowering groove data in order to stubbornly insist on some kind of irrelevant by-the-book explanation about how to count it. but my body and mind agree that option is the undeniable choice!

My takeaway from this is that syncopation breaks people’s brains in interesting ways

I really don't think it's the syncopation that's doing it, I think it's more about the brain's relationship to functional harmony...I think it's that for some people, the first two quarter notes going from V to I really strongly tells them that beat 2 should actually be beat 1. But other people's brains have no trouble accepting the root on the second beat.

I think it may be the above. I simply cannot hear the phrasing of the horn sample except as the root (second) note falling on the downbeat. I actually separated the stems. If I listen to the drums on their own, I can hear the half-speed beat with the snare on 2 and 4, but the minute I add the horn/bass melody, it becomes a different beat. I tried listening to the beat with just the vocals, hoping it would suddenly make sense the other way, but it didn't, probably because even though I'd cut out the horns, I was still kind of hearing them in my head. With no horns, I was somewhat able to hear the verse rapping fitting over the half-speed beat, but as soon as the chorus vocals came in, I was back to the other interpretation, but again it might be due to over-familiarity with hearing it the other way.

I've often experienced slight confusion of this kind, but once re-oriented I can always adjust. I think this is probably the only track that has completely defeated me, where currently I cannot hear it in what some insist is the correct way. I can only hear the horn phrasing one way.

deej gonna deej, he lives for this shit (said with affection)

xp

Another bit of syncopation that I think is tricky is on the actual ROLL OUT, because if you hear it the way most of us do, that falls on 4-1, rather than on the 3-4 if you hear it the other way. I get that in some respects it feels more natural to do 1-2-ROLL-OUT than 1-2-3-ROLL-OUT-2-3 — but in the live Leno clip that's exactly what happens. The drummer clicks off 1-2-3 and they hit 4 with ROLL.

Really like the phrase “overpowering groove data”

it’s almost like you think i am denying some kind of overpowering groove data in order to stubbornly insist on some kind of irrelevant by-the-book explanation about how to count it. but my body and mind agree that option is the undeniable choice!

― budo jeru, Wednesday, July 30, 2025 12:42 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I feel like we're reversing the actual flow of this conversation in which the option 3 ppl were initially derided as denying overpowering Facts and Logic data but whatever

Can someone post a version of 3 with a hard backbeat so I know what I’m supposed to be listening for

If dubmill sends me the stems, I will make this!

idk why the leno performance is any more "real" than the studio recording. if anything, the need for coordination between musicians puts a limit on how weird a digital rap production can be

I don't know if it's true to say that 'most' hear it as 4-1. I'm not sure what the actual ratio is but there seemed to be an awful lot of comments on that Instagram video reading it as 3-4. Not saying they're right.

For what it's worth, I can force myself to hear 'Roll out' as 4-1 on the live version, but not on the recorded version.

the certainty abt the Correctness of their position is coming from one side here (the guys who ie said theyd kick someone out of their band if they disagreed)

It's also coming from the side of the artist and his band, to me that's pretty obvious. I also think it's an important skill to be able to change how you hear things like this/force your brain to flip it -- if you were playing in Luda's band you would need to, I think that's more what Questlove was getting at.

Btw for anyone who can only hear option #3 and wants to try to hear it the other way -- I recommend drilling and internalizing the rhythm against the backbeat *without* any notes, just the rhythm. That's what let me retrain my brain here.

idk why the leno performance is any more "real" than the studio recording. if anything, the need for coordination between musicians puts a limit on how weird a digital rap production can be

It's real because they're not changing anything, they're doing a direct version of the studio recording, it's just more obvious what it is (because of cymbal crashes, drop-outs, weaving other tunes in and out, etc).

they're performing an interpretation of the studio recording

If dubmill sends me the stems, I will make this!

I'm afraid I've deleted them now but I used the OpenVINO music separation tool available as part of Audacity. It can separate into drums, bass, vocals, others.

Lol I totally missed the fact the drummer counts them in on the Leno vid…

i agree that the live performance definitely places the the 1 on the "out" of "roll out," i just bristle at any "this is absolutely that" type of interpretation of a record that relies on an theory interpretation as if theory is an absolute fact and not a mutable concept that humans have imposed upon music in an attempt to classify the ineffable

*any theory interpretation

What is 1 anyway? Why can’t 2+2=5?

"the" one

don't bring religion into this

Seriously watch the bass player’s head movements …

There isn’t a single aspect of this song in the studio version that makes me think anyone involved was counting it as #3

Can someone post a version of 3 with a hard backbeat so I know what I’m supposed to be listening for

i was having trouble imagining it too, so i put this together for reference. the link will probably expire in a day:
https://jumpshare.com/s/M8qjWLLgN9EfWeb9oNH4

he dreams he is a Viking, litteraly

My takeaway from this is that syncopation breaks people’s brains in interesting ways

^^^^^

I would love to see the alternate timeline where Timbo flipped the sample like that, and if it would have been an equally big hit. Maybe that's where it all started to go wrong for us.

Okay crut that is WILD

Always heard it as 3 tbh

opt 3 just seems like an engagement troll. opt 2 is just double time of opt 1. so i don't see (or hear) any controversy here. all you have to do is listen to the snare, which reliably marks 2 and 4

this is objectively correct and the thread should have been locked afterwards

New request:

Can someone just throw this on top of "3"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRap0m85nQw

do we have a broader rhythmic illusion thread? or am i remembering wrong?

before ludagate during COVID there was a longer discourse around the 1 in "Once In A Lifetime"...

opt 3 just seems like an engagement troll. opt 2 is just double time of opt 1. so i don't see (or hear) any controversy here. all you have to do is listen to the snare, which reliably marks 2 and 4

this is objectively correct and the thread should have been locked afterwards

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 9:00 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

what is the correct way to start an engagement troll thread?

you'll know you've done it right if you have 173 new answers, bonus if the guy in the original instagram post is yikes as fuck

I do kind of love that all my Enemies of course disagree with me here. Like you could swap this out for “is lil peep a good artist” and it would fall along exactly the same lines

Or since hemiola came up, and off beat rapping is now a completely normalized stylistic choice

this is objectively correct and the thread should have been locked afterwards

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 3:00 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

You guys sure love your Objectivity!

i was having trouble imagining it too, so i put this together for reference. the link will probably expire in a day:
https://jumpshare.com/s/M8qjWLLgN9EfWeb9oNH4

― c u (crüt), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 2:08 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is amazing because you can’t actually dance double-time to it. I think it’s more than the chord change (per m bison’s example of the wedding march) and it has to do with the pulse to me being double time but *with a snare on the two* (and an implied / ghosted snare on four)

Here we go: Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

This is amazing because you can’t actually dance double-time to it.

Sure you can, you can dance double-time to anything you want.

the first pulse I feel hearing roll out is double time. The pulse I feel in crut’s is half time

It's really funny that to understand "3" all you have to do is just ignore where the bass drum and snare drum and rapping would be naturally placed on any other song

The … “dominant” pulse if u prefer ?

Why do you guys keep insisting the rapping supports your side of this when it absolutely does not

I still can't hear No. 3 so I'mma have to take your word for that

There isn’t a single aspect of this song in the studio version that makes me think anyone involved was counting it as #3

countdown to somebody invoking the Death of the Author

I do kind of love that all my Enemies of course disagree with me here. Like you could swap this out for “is lil peep a good artist” and it would fall along exactly the same lines

I lol'd

countdown to somebody invoking the Death of the Author

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:28 PM (twenty-three seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well, it's already clear that deej has a big problem understanding Rolands

looool

damn

in what way is death of the author not relevant here and in all cases lol

how the audience 'feels' the song is how it should be counted. not how drum pedants online dictated by snare placement 'feel' the song

and sorry again and again: the way ludacris raps on the chorus most strongly indicates option 3. admittedly his rapping in other places indicates other interpretations (he does difft syncopations throughout) but this has all been litigated by other ppl before who use examples of him dancing live in which it indicates option 3 is correct or option 2, have you considered he may not have thought about it or made a 'choice' at all

in what way is death of the author not relevant here and in all cases lol

it's not relevant because theory has largely moved past it, it's really used now mainly as a weak "well, if I can launch an interpretation and defend it, then that interpretation is good" position, which is just...well, God bless anybody still hanging out on that corner. but it's especially irrelevant with respect to counting time. yes indeed -- you can say "one, two, three, one, two, three" over Johnny B. Goode, and try to tether that to "descriptivism" (a model of understanding grammar and language usage with extremely limited applications to counting time), but it's not a good or useful argument. the place for "descriptivism vs prescriptivism" arguments here would be prior to the assigning of a time signature, and the descriptivist argument would be "there isn't one." once we've agreed that we're gonna count time, we are all to some extent operating in a prescriptivist argument; and, if the score has a time signature on it, that is the whole-ass end of the argument right there for anybody except the most argue-for-its-own-sake person (which I must respect, "I can only love that which is myself," etc). Once in a very long while you'll find a conductor who'll say "Bruckner meant for this to be played at half the speed it's usually played at and even if he didn't, that's the right speed." But even Celibidache is not gonna count 13 on Te Deum.

in the present case, anyhow, wouldn't the difference in hearing be solved by arguing that Ludacris is doing polyrhythms -- rapping one beat over a different one?

the place for "descriptivism vs prescriptivism" arguments here would be prior to the assigning of a time signature, and the descriptivist argument would be "there isn't one." once we've agreed that we're gonna count time, we are all to some extent operating in a prescriptivist argument

I mean, I totally agree with this! Glad we could conclude that anyone saying it was 'objectively' 1-2 is wrong

it's not relevant because theory has largely moved past it, it's really used now mainly as a weak "well, if I can launch an interpretation and defend it, then that interpretation is good" position, which is just...well, God bless anybody still hanging out on that corner.

okay I don't know dick about drumming, but I don't agree with this. "theory" is pretty incoherent right now imho, and it's true that the most vulgar, reductive versions of textualism have been rejected (via affect theory, critical realism, and some other stuff). but it's not like theory has remotely swung back to positivism! standpoint theory still quite vital, STS still hot, anti-colonial critiques, etc.

Why do you guys keep insisting the rapping supports your side of this when it absolutely does not

… It absolutely does, though?

the song has an a priori relationship to the time signature. the time signature IMHO could be applied in reaction to how the song functions effectively for people -- from a personal POV it very clearly indicates option 3. I wonder if you polled people how it would turn out -- though obv I don't think 'majority rules' makes sense, im also skeptical of 'but what do professional musicians think'

… It absolutely does, though?

― my favorite herbs are fennel and Drake (DJP), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:08 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

have you read the thread? ludacris' emphasis throughout the chorus indicates the one aligns with the tonic in each line and that the previous word is a pickup. He doesn't say "TWIN glock" he says "twin GLOCK" just the opposite of how on "Move Bitch" he says "MOOOVE" not "move BITCH"

xpost I’m sorry, are you making the argument that hearing the beat as 1 or 2 is an imperialistic listening of the song

I like "poll professional dancers" more than "poll professional musicians" tbh LOL

xpost I’m sorry, are you making the argument that hearing the beat as 1 or 2 is an imperialistic listening of the song

― my favorite herbs are fennel and Drake (DJP), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:12 PM (forty seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

no but saying that it is definitively 1 or 2 could verge on that

I really hate the lack of xpost notifications on iOS

So if rapping emphasizes the off-beat, like dude does with “Glock” … is he doing something that is not rapping?

lol was that question for me DJP?

I dont understand that question but I would think in the catchiest, most memorable part of the song he would be doing the thing that *most* aligns with how the audience primarily hears the groove xp to sarahell

have you read the thread? ludacris' emphasis throughout the chorus indicates the one aligns with the tonic in each line and that the previous word is a pickup. He doesn't say "TWIN glock" he says "twin GLOCK" just the opposite of how on "Move Bitch" he says "MOOOVE" not "move BITCH"

I’m sorry but this makes no sense. There isn’t anything rhythmically tricky or challenging about the chorus. One is on “twin” and 3 is on “four”. You have to warp the feel of the rest of the song to make it feel otherwise.

You do realize that there are popular songs where the catchy parts are syncopated? Not on the 1? And that said syncopation actually is part of the groove?

lol was that question for me DJP?

It was but then deej answered it quasi-seriously

but this has all been litigated by other ppl before who use examples of him dancing live in which it indicates option 3 is correct or option 2, have you considered he may not have thought about it or made a 'choice' at all

There's no way he doesn't have a very clear understanding of where the downbeat is and how the four bar phrases in the song line up. He's got an extremely sophisticated understanding of phrasing and rhythm (have you ever seen the video where they try to prank him by making him rap over a janky odd-time beat?), you don't record all the vocal parts in that song and then perform it perfectly for years without having a rock-solid interpretation of the beat.

And fwiw the way he and the band move in that Leno video is clearly option 1/2.

Aha, thanks J. Here's Jordan, DJP, Sund4r & I briefly talking about Ludagate 5 years ago:

Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

The awesome crut version demonstrates that the song’s banger quality is because the 1 is not where you think it is, Deej.

It was but then deej answered it quasi-seriously

― my favorite herbs are fennel and Drake (DJP), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 5:21 PM (three minutes ago)

dialectically speaking it's clearly option 4

"theory" is pretty incoherent right now imho, and it's true that the most vulgar, reductive versions of textualism have been rejected (via affect theory, critical realism, and some other stuff). but it's not like theory has remotely swung back to positivism! standpoint theory still quite vital, STS still hot, anti-colonial critiques, etc.

you are right, but what I'd argue is that the "the death of the author means authorial intention has no relevance to the text" position, intensely popular in the 90s and living on in those who copped the stance in that time, has been pretty roundly interrogated by questions of cultural context, renewed interest in situating a work within its own history, etc.

udacris' emphasis throughout the chorus indicates the one aligns with the tonic in each line and that the previous word is a pickup. He doesn't say "TWIN glock" he says "twin GLOCK" just the opposite of how on "Move Bitch" he says "MOOOVE" not "move BITCH"

Ok, so on Big Tymers 'Get Your Roll On', almost every single word is on the upbeat. Do you think that Mannie Fresh is actually rapping on the downbeat and hearing every kick and snare on the upbeats?

(btw thank you deej for this wholesome old school ilm clusterfuck, genuinely)

This isn’t about authorial intent … it’s about the formal properties of the recorded song!

xp (I'd further argue that it's a useless position if you can hear a drummer count off four to a song and the band then drops on the one, which answers the question once and for all of where the one is.)

(btw thank you deej for this wholesome old school ilm clusterfuck, genuinely)

cosign, gettin misty-eyed here

Deej in his high school English class yelling at the teacher that Shakespeare is actually using a pick-up note and there's no such thing as iambic pentameter

Honestly, this whole thing would have been just a normal boring ILX conversation if deej didn't start the thread guns blazing doing overly confident flat-earther shit about a Ludacris song

I wish my brother some dude was here

Though tbf the camera cuts to the band, and maybe there were previous counts that happened before the camera cuts to the drummer … I mean, he doesn’t say the numbers!

you are right, but what I'd argue is that the "the death of the author means authorial intention has no relevance to the text" position, intensely popular in the 90s and living on in those who copped the stance in that time, has been pretty roundly interrogated by questions of cultural context, renewed interest in situating a work within its own history, etc.

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:28 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

ok but no one here said it had 'no' relevance just that its not a defining factor

Ok, so on Big Tymers 'Get Your Roll On', almost every single word is on the upbeat. Do you think that Mannie Fresh is actually rapping on the downbeat and hearing every kick and snare on the upbeats?

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:29 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

no because the effect is to land on the offbeat to create a specific unpredictable effect! the effect on roll out is not unpredictable

The awesome crut version demonstrates that the song’s banger quality is because the 1 is not where you think it is, Deej.

― sarahell, Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:26 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

crut's version indicates to me that something is 'missing' that is present in the original & that creates this kind of "confusion" or ambiguity

I’m sorry but this makes no sense. There isn’t anything rhythmically tricky or challenging about the chorus. One is on “twin” and 3 is on “four”. You have to warp the feel of the rest of the song to make it feel otherwise.

― my favorite herbs are fennel and Drake (DJP), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:20 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i'm not saying there's anything 'tricky' about it at all -- i'm saying the way he's rapping treats 'twin' as part of the pickup and 'GLOCK' as the one, his vocal performance here supports the option 3 argument

You really deserve the dayo crown from the viking thread for this <3

I love the way you guys come in here acting like i'm the one being unreasonable meanwhile im being called a flat earther or a troll lol and im the one saying the multiple interpretations suggest a more complex reality

I swear if I have to see deej capitalize the word GLOCK again like that's swaying anybody

Just asking questions!

you are right, but what I'd argue is that the "the death of the author means authorial intention has no relevance to the text" position, intensely popular in the 90s and living on in those who copped the stance in that time, has been pretty roundly interrogated by questions of cultural context, renewed interest in situating a work within its own history, etc.

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 5:28 PM (four minutes ago)

sadly for the clusterfuck, I think we're actually saying the same thing

Yo whiney

I swear if I have to see deej capitalize the word GLOCK again like that's swaying anybody

― moist corn kernels emerging fully intact in your diarrhea (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 4:39 PM (thirty-six seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

maybe stop claiming ad nauseum that the rapping supports your case and I dont have to explain that how a rapper emphasizes their words indicates the opposite

And I'm saying the way he's rapping treats "I got my" as the pickup, and "twin glock 40" as the main phrase that goes along with the horns, starting on the 1.

xxxp

Why wouldn’t a rapper emphasize a word on the upbeat?

sadly for the clusterfuck, I think we're actually saying the same thing

no it's good, sidebar in the clusterfuck is really my preferred spot

― GLOCKhart, Texas (sarahell), Wednesday, July 30, 2025 5:41 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'd join you in GLOCK puns but I'm still protesting having to see "hungover beet poo" every day on here

Deej you definitely know that rappers emphasize words not on the beat *all the time*. They're not the drummer, they're the lead voice and often play against the beat to create some rhythmic tension and interest.

yes im aware -- it doesn't change how the effect of his performance in this particular instance leads to the split listening experience though no ?

does this have something to do with Sydney Sweeney? I’m out of the loop here

Guys this was the thread we needed in these dark times

Like lookie here, a sliver of 2010 ILX.

Maybe Gucci Mane is nearby

tis the spirit of ludicris

I can't hear this any other way than "out" in "roll out" being on the 1 just like "child" is 1 in "a child is born with no state of mind" in the message and to prove my point I made some terrible mashups for which i apologize but i do believe they are illustrative:

https://sndup.net/9nty5/

https://jumpshare.com/s/NoOn0ZyUyYAtKHXXyLA3

and so if i'm understanding correctly the other way of hearing it is that "out" is on the four (because the snare is on the 2) and trying to mash it up that way sounds terrible:

https://sndup.net/8wnmk/

https://jumpshare.com/s/q81cclatuFwkxeA1DaIk

To answer the thread question: very carefully.

Trying to come up with parody lyrics as if Ludacris was a literal viking

And in the spirit of “death of the author” I tried to find a recording of the song where it was possible that the 1 was elsewhere —- this is the closest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxaib1CXFE4

Corrs, now that I firmly hear the beat with the snare on 3 (or 2 & 4 if you're counting in halftime), the first version you posted sounds insane, really off. Second version sounds good & settled.

I hear "TWIN GLOCK FORties" as three strong stresses in a row. Three equally loud footsteps bouncing up the melodic staircase. Is someone seriously trying to say that "twin glock" is an iamb?

and so if i'm understanding correctly the other way of hearing it is that "out" is on the four (because the snare is on the 2) and trying to mash it up that way sounds terrible:

https://sndup.net/8wnmk/

https://jumpshare.com/s/q81cclatuFwkxeA1DaIk

― corrs unplugged, Friday, August 1, 2025 5:46 AM (eight hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Nah this way sounds hot too

lol yeah I do actually like that. But it also sounds cornier with the "roll out" on the 3-4, kinda cuter. Having OUT barge in on the 1 really kicks it forward imo.

Not sure what those are meant to illustrate but they sound fine?

The "Roll Out" hook works over "The Message" beat either way, but Ludacris's verse sounds way better in the first version ("out" on 1)

I do prefer Melle Mel on the second version ("out" on 4), the syncopation is really something

Oh, I was only listening to the ones with the Roll Out beat. Yeah I agree, I do think the 'Roll Out' hook works just as well on either part of the phrase, but the chorus and verse have to go with the first version.

i tried listening to the verse on the "out"-on-4 "message" mashup and my brain cannot process it

Wait’ll you hear the Roll Out (the Barrel) version!!

Oh my god, that second version makes Luda sound so SQUARE

Is that how people are hearing him on the original song? Yikes

^^^^^^^^^

I can't hear this any other way than "out" in "roll out" being on the 1 just like "child" is 1 in "a child is born with no state of mind" in the message and to prove my point I made some terrible mashups for which i apologize but i do believe they are illustrative:

https://sndup.net/9nty5/

https://jumpshare.com/s/NoOn0ZyUyYAtKHXXyLA3

and so if i'm understanding correctly the other way of hearing it is that "out" is on the four (because the snare is on the 2) and trying to mash it up that way sounds terrible:

https://sndup.net/8wnmk/

https://jumpshare.com/s/q81cclatuFwkxeA1DaIk

― corrs unplugged, Friday, 1 August 2025 10:46 (eleven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

wait, are the first two meant to equate with 'option 1/2' in the video at the top of thread, and the second two equate with 'option 3'?

yes

https://jumpshare.com/s/q81cclatuFwkxeA1DaIk

― corrs unplugged, Friday, 1 August 2025 10:46 (eleven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’m not really sure how switching the beat better proves or illuminates anything since it’s the different aspects in concert that make it what it is, but in this case the fourth link you sent sounds cool to me

Ok the other link worked this time — actually you’re right this is illustrative because the first examples sound weird to me and the 3rd and 4th sound good!

And that’s without the chord movement so again I don’t think this is *strictly* about the chord movement for option 3 ppl

Oh my god, that second version makes Luda sound so SQUARE

Is that how people are hearing him on the original song? Yikes

― my favorite herbs are fennel and Drake (DJP), Friday, August 1, 2025 3:32 PM (thirty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

omg dude this is breaking my brain

hahahahahaha

If Ralph said “pirate” instead of “viking” then that totally proves he is literally a viking…

ludacris walking into the "rollout" sessions like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNcEn1j0SHI

imho in the second of the two examples over the message (the 'option 3' version) he sounds like he's exactly in the pocket on the chorus and then it feels kind of 'off' on the verses, and on the first of the two examples over the message ('option 2' version) he sounds 'off' on the chorus and directly in the pocket on the verses.

I find it weird someone could say that he sounds 'square' in one version and not the other when it feels like he reverses his flow pocket between chorus and verse on the song itself.

naturally I think option 3 is the 'correct answer' bc the chorus would strike me as more defining of 'the song's meter than a verse flow

I think it's still all down to the melodic movement, the chorus vocal is the only thing that preserves it over the Message beat, that's why it sounds awkward to you (and of course it makes no sense at all when it's not doubling the horn riff).

Will someone please please please do a version of Option 3 with a hard backbeat and/or the Luda acapella. I just cannot hear it

The Message has a pretty hard backbeat, that's why I used it. So as I understand the example from Instagram "Roll Out" is called on 3 and 4. In this example the acapella is mashed up (badly, sry) with "Roll Out" on 3 and 4, and... it doesn't work:

https://sndup.net/gsmr7/

here's the acapella (low quality via online stem splitter)
https://sndup.net/mmh93/

flexible as luda's flow is you can pretty easily count it in the verses without a beat

That one's really interesting, the hook works well on beats 3+4, and Luda's flow is propulsive (in the sense of rolling across the downbeat and pulling us forward into the next bar), but the hook coming back in at the end of the verse upsets everything (not in a good way)

Complete speculation, but perhaps they recorded Ludacris doing the chorus and the verses intentionally with a different rhythmic feel? Because it definitely seems to switch (the same way it does in Once In A Lifetime, as someone mentioned above)?

Also, a lot of fail in this thread, but Whiney definitely comes off as someone insisting Emily Dickinson must have pronounced words differently, because poetry always rhymes.

Once in a Lifetime doesn't switch either. :)

A rap beat doesn't always have a backbeat, but it does here.

The feel very much does. Though the beat stays the same.

I don't believe Timbaland, Luda, or anyone involved with the recording hears it as ambiguous.

My guess would be they probably know enough about harmony to realize what happens if you go V-I on the first two beats.

Like, that's quite fundamental.

they also know enough about rhythm to find the one

also it's the fifth going to the tonic in the melody, not a V-I chord progression

Also this thread should be proof that some people's brains hear that V-I melodic movement as a strong pull to a false downbeat, and others just don't. I don't think it was bothering Timbaland and Luda at all.

Not to do the Once in a Lifetime thing again, but to me that's a very simple thing where the melody starts on the first update (& of 1), and it doesn't create any ambiguity in the phrase for me at all. But I know it messes with some people's brains.

Once In a Lifetime is mostly tricky when it's played as a group, because everybody's count starts slightly differently.

this is probably the "drummer tunnel vision" lol

xp

uh should be xxp

I'm not saying it 'bothered' anyone who made it, I'm saying they knew what they were doing.

i'm saying they knew what they were doing too, they just weren't doing what you think they were

The descending half step ("- cocked - back") in context feels like a sort of cadence even though it's syncopated. You could argue that the ear is primed less for the harmonic resolution to i than for the rhythmic resolution to "ROLL OUT", which this figure fully pays off.

the original salsa sample doesn't start on the one or the four - it starts on the & of four, and timbaland took that and flipped it so it starts on the one. he put a cut-time hip hop beat on top of it to emphasize where the one is. i don't believe he ever intended to mislead people about where the one is, and i don't believe that luda ever heard the one as being anywhere else.

Good for you, crüt, but I was answering Jordan.

i remember a steely dan / allan holdsworth session brainiac was boggling my tiny mind trying to educate me about brazilian rhythms where no beat sounds on the one, much like you occasionally hear bandleaders or choreographers counting with emphasis on the "and" AND one AND two AND three AND four
i am not good at music or maths.
"flow" does not suggest strict adherence to a metric grid.
that henry kaiser quote about beefheart time sigs "it's all in ONE"

or what crüt says

Once In a Lifetime is mostly tricky when it's played as a group, because everybody's count starts slightly differently.

Or, it doesn't!

(I really don't understand this, sorry)

xp

There's a guitarloop in the chorus that begins on 3, and also the emphasis in the melody is different, and that makes it feel like it switches. But it does not, the rhythm track is the same loop all through, I don't think it's hard to start the song. Not even Talking Heads themselves were able to recreate the recorded chorus live, though.

Fred, do you have an opinion about the viking issue?

IIRC Eno didn't know where the one was when he was producing "Once in a Lifetime" so I can understand why the studio version confuses people.

counting is exclusionary to the innumerate. we should just go xiuuu badoombapbap pause badoombapbap

Well duh, he spells it backwards

The 'vikings' are mostly an ideological fantasy created in the nineteenth century?

I mean, it's not that there weren't vikings, but there's also farmers and thralls and women, and while some people insist on whatever the vikings were doing should be the defining feature of the age, I think it's the interplay between all of them that makes it so interesting in a weird and confusing way.

maybe we could use instruments instead of counting to do that xiuuu badoombapbap pause badoombapbap

my favourite counting is the ramones on "it's alive" where no matter what the tempo of the song is, tommy's "1234" is exactly the same speed every time

you can play this game with the ramones' "loudmouth" where the downbeat for the guitars and drums is not the downbeat for joey's vocals but it doesn't fucking matter

Crut’s logic — “I’m right because I think the artists agree with me” — is airtight

Any evidence to the contrary isn’t actually evidence, and the fact that intent doesn’t = execution is an inconvenient fantasy!

I mean, I don't think he is right about intent at all, lol.

I believe that timbaland moved a sample to start on the one over a half time beat he’d already made and liked how it sounded. I’m not going to make any more assumptions about where he was counting “the one,” or whether or not him counting the one there indicates some kind of trump card authority on where the “feel” of the groove is

And once again the wedding march sounding the opposite indicates it’s not “only” the melodic movement that gives this song the feel described

the fact that there are lots of rap songs with a snare only on the two that “feel” this way is another inconvenience here for the 1/2 ppl

the original salsa sample doesn't start on the one or the four - it starts on the & of four, and timbaland took that and flipped it so it starts on the one.

Yeah this is right, imo. But anyway credit to Timbaland for a beat so fine we're still unspooling it a quarter-century later. Nobody's ever argued that it doesn't work or doesn't move.

the fact that there are lots of rap songs with a snare only on the two that “feel” this way is another inconvenience here for the 1/2 ppl

Not in Southern hip hop in 2001, right?

Crut is right, what you guys are saying is like hearing the hi-hat in jazz as on the downbeats and saying "but art is subjective, my interpretation is valid."

That’s a great analogy Jordan, because to me, the beat on this song feels like hi-hats (other people hear it as a snare, but for some reason it sounds more like a hi-hat to me idk) on the upbeat and thus it is very clear that is 1/2 …

I firmly believe that you could absolutely make a jazz song where the hi-hat is on the downbeat, though?

Not in Southern hip hop in 2001, right?

Did people feel rhythms differently in 2001? The question is about the feel of the song which either works the way we’re describing or it doesn’t. If I try to “move around” to this beat the pulse, regardless of where the I instruments are placed, pulls me towards a specific pattern & it happens to run counter to the historical evidence of how those instruments *tend to* create a groove. But it’s the groove that determines it not the instruments

in the interest of ~science~ I closed by eyes and started tapping what I thought was the beat then opened them and compared to the video

my instinct was that #1 was correct. Also agreed that #2 and #1 are the same just 2 is double time.

that how I heard it at least.

I thought the question was how to count the song?

xp

I firmly believe that you could absolutely make a jazz song where the hi-hat is on the downbeat, though?

Sure, I could point you to a small number of exceptions that prove the rule, like Al Foster playing off a convention intentionally. But if you're hearing a one-drop reggae song with the chanks on the downbeat or the bass drum on the 1, or a swinging jazz tune with the hi-hats on the downbeats, then there's a 99% chance that you're hearing it incorrectly by all objective measures (which do exist).

And it doesn't matter if you're just listening for enjoyment and letting it wash over you and you don't care, but yeah I'm always thinking about "what if I had to play this with other people?"

And just in case people really think I'm being a genre prescriptivist, maybe the Devo version of "Satisfaction" is a good case study. They intentionally flip all the conventions of rock & roll rhythm upside down (bass drum on the upbeats, snare only on the downbeat), so when I first heard it I needed to use all the other context clues in the song to figure out what was going on. Figuring out where the beginning of the bar is by when parts come in and out, when chords change, where the lyrics sit, etc. And that's not to say that chords and new parts can only come in on the 1, but when you take it all together you get a logic makes sense as a whole.

And makes a lot more sense than a bunch of non-sensical bars of different lengths, which is what happens when you're hearing a song on the wrong beat and then it goes to the chorus (and that's not to say that contracting or extending bars isn't a songwriting tool, but after so much time learning and memorizing songs for different gigs I have a strong sense of when I'm not getting/working against the internal logic of the song).

Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (314 of them)

And it doesn't matter if you're just listening for enjoyment and letting it wash over you and you don't care, but yeah I'm always thinking about "what if I had to play this with other people?"

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Monday, August 4, 2025 12:21 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I feel like there's a wide range of activity between 'just listening for enjoyment and letting it wash over you and don't care' and 'what if I had to play this with other people' ie all the ppl saying they are pro dancers in the conversation around this who chose option 3

'play this with other people' being an interesting subjective take for a song that in its original form was not 'performed'

all the ppl saying they are pro dancers in the conversation around this who chose option 3

???

man i posted an example in this thread scroll up

an interesting observation from reading a bunch of these comments is that I notice a lot of ppl who are 'dancers' siding with the 'off beat' camp

'as a dancer, I must say, the 5678 goes to OPTION 3'

― ok (D-40), Tuesday, July 29, 2025 5:58 PM (six days ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’ll bet you there are a lot more people who dance to the actual rhythm of the song

I bet you're a condescending dickhead

I’m not trying to be a dick to you! I’m just genuinely flabbergasted by this.

Yeah, as a singer, I would definitely count as number 3, in order to get the right feel for the hook. But D-40 is right, there's something fundamentally different with songs created with loops, samples, programming. There doesn't need to be any 'count' that encompasses all elements of the song (as there isn't in this song, the horns in the sample originally played differently, and were then put a different place in the groove) and I think a huge part of the appeal of the song is the weird interplay between rhythmic elements. I've been trying to boil it down, and it might be that Ludacris sounds so energetic, that not even the drums of the song can contain him?

Fr, you can't have an appeal to authority using 'professional dancers' and brush aside the professional musicians. In my experience dancers aren't great at articulating rhythm verbally -- obv there's a deep physical understanding, but their language for it is totally different (much easier to musicians & dancers to communicate with actual sounds & movement).

Thank you corrs unplugged for putting Option 3 in a way I could (occasionally) hear

I think Occam's Razor says the guy who spent 2001 making "Area Codes" is not trying to be Blueface two decades early, but there's no convincing people who think meter is in the eye of the beholder and not something made to keep musicians in sync, as evidenced by that Leno clip

This song is such a strange example of this sort of subverted syncopation, since it's really not that hard to count (imo). As opposed to, say, Devo's "Satisfaction" or Van Halen's "Unchained" or even Zep's "Black Dog," which are designed to trip you up even when they are, rhythmically, not as complicated as it first seems (at least those first two; "Black Dog" is a different animal).

I think you guys are not understanding the situation if you're saying an artist is 'trying to blueface two decades early' or 'designed to trip you up'

its about what sounds *cool to them* no one is saying this is about being 'cutting edge' or 'complex' or anything like that

Fr, you can't have an appeal to authority using 'professional dancers' and brush aside the professional musicians. In my experience dancers aren't great at articulating rhythm verbally -- obv there's a deep physical understanding, but their language for it is totally different (much easier to musicians & dancers to communicate with actual sounds & movement).

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Monday, August 4, 2025 1:39 PM (nineteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

ohh my appeal to authority isnt as authoritative as your appeal to authority, got it

Your appeal to authority is a YouTube commenter vs. the authority of Ludacris's actual drummer

my point is that 'appeal to authority' is not meaningful, that there are competing experiences here, way to miss the point

It's absolutely hilarious that D-40 was on here like 8 years ago saying offbeat drill rappers were modern day Steve Gadds brewing up new formulas for rhythmic complexity while multiplatinum melodic-pop-star Ludacris is just a babe in the woods unconsciously stumbling across feels that make "Dilla time" look like the hokey pokey

here's a performance where luda transitions seamlessly between "what's your fantasy" and "rollout" at 2:48 which should at least put an end to the debate of how luda hears the song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh4aYDQIsT0

There is a piece of the “it must be 3” argument that I can understand from the context of my performance experience with songs that have rhythmically-tricky entrances or patterns where sometimes the only way I can get it right is to rewire the song’s meter in my head for the 2-3 problem measures and count them against the beat so I know where I’m supposed to be; however, I would only make the further leap that this means the downbeat for my part isn’t at the beginning of the measure if it was the endemic to the style of the music, like say fugue sections, and even there there’s still a steady downbeat that holds everything together even as other parts dip in and out of it.

Correct, I take an opinion from someone who's made a career out of reverse-engineering hip hop beats and constantly backing up huge artists pretty seriously in this context! For dancers, as long as they're together and have a way of relating to the music, it sort of doesn't matter how they count or feel things (and they have often ways of counting that relate more to their movement than the music ime)? They can react to the music, they're not making it.

xp

hey i took a break from this thread for several days, did you guys figure out the correct way to count the beat on Ludacris' "Roll Out" yet

Anytime I need to count the beat, I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place where the downbeat hides
Then figure out whether it's single or double time
Confusing like a him-a-hemiola

There is a piece of the “it must be 3” argument that I can understand from the context of my performance experience with songs that have rhythmically-tricky entrances or patterns where sometimes the only way I can get it right is to rewire the song’s meter in my head for the 2-3 problem measures and count them against the beat so I know where I’m supposed to be;

I have done this too -- there's a version of "I Got a Woman" my band does with these syncopated upbeat intro hits, and I can never align my brain correctly in time. So I have a way of counting it and then telling my brain 'downbeat here!' and no one is the wiser.

Same with a lot of those tricky Thelonious Monk tunes where the head is played twice, and it's rhythmically displaced on the second time around. There are certain phrases I know have trouble feeling, so I have the count memorized in case I get wrong-footed mentally.

@Jordan, probably better suited for the rhythmic illusion thread but this recent Drummeo clip analyzing Bonham's STH perf in detail esp his tricks in the bridge leading into the solo where the one is lost on the listener and most people who try to cover the song and how people try to transcribe it in weird clusters of odd time sigs but if you zoom out and ignore the chord changes and cymbal crashes it's surprisingly straight 4/4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtDl0aYrT70 (timestamp at 7m25s)

i mean i guess i'm trying to understand what the point of counting in music would even be if it wasn't intended as something for musicians to understand collectively in a performance so they can stay together?

and why would we discount drummers, who's function in music is generally to keep time?

Keeping time is the new Rockism! Only dancers can feel the trve groove! Throw off your metronomic overlords!

i mean i guess i'm trying to understand what the point of counting in music would even be if it wasn't intended as something for musicians to understand collectively in a performance so they can stay together?

and why would we discount drummers, who's function in music is generally to keep time?

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, August 4, 2025 3:00 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

we're not discounting drummers -- anderson paak was in the 3 camp -- drumers are not united on this being option 1/2

"lots of ppl are saying..."

It's absolutely hilarious that D-40 was on here like 8 years ago saying offbeat drill rappers were modern day Steve Gadds brewing up new formulas for rhythmic complexity while multiplatinum melodic-pop-star Ludacris is just a babe in the woods unconsciously stumbling across feels that make "Dilla time" look like the hokey pokey

― moist corn kernels emerging fully intact in your diarrhea (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, August 4, 2025 2:06 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

you're a fucking moron who misremembers the argument then, too. An argument that I ended up being completely right about

literally a generation of rappers doing 'offbeat rapping' came from that moment! it ended up being one of the most influential effects of his approach and you guys were insisting over and over again via 'occams razor' that he was a mere amateur who couldn't rap correctly!

DJP otm — when I was a classical singer, my parts often didn’t come in on the 1. When I came in didn’t make that beat the 1.

D-40 is only discounting the drummer who actually played the song.

questlove is the one playing on the studio recording of 'roll out'?

The snare is on the 1

i'm curious where you think the downbeat is on "3hunna" xp

Scratch that. The “Out” is the 1.

Scratch that. The “Out” is the 1.

yes but what does "and son" think

it seems obvious to me that in the creation of the track 'jordan is correct' but in the effect of the blend of sample and drums & rap style, the synthesis creates a layered rhythmic bed not unlike a clave where the rhythm cuts across the drums in an unexpected way

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/My_Wife_and_My_Mother-In-Law_%28Hill%29.svg

yes if ur trying to recreate it on sheet music it probably makes more sense to write it without a pickup but if you're a dancer choreograph-ing to it it makes more sense to treat it as having a pickup

you like tomato, I like Kevin Pollack

im not sure why group 1/2 people are so intent on there being NO AMBIGUITY but its kind of wild to me that they cant conceive of the fact that reception counter to their own might have *some meaning beyond* option 3 ppl being "fooled" literally the purpose of music is to 'fool you' into thinking you're not hearing someone hitting animal skin with sticks but some kind of living breathing abstraction

"you have imagined something interesting here but according to science its not interesting at all"

The downbeat is the downbeat. You are hearing a common effect of syncopation. It doesn’t change where the downbeat actually is.

this whole thread is a nuclear waste site and no response to it is virtuous in any way but i'll just say it's insulting to the phenomenon of meter drift and ambiguous meter to use this pop/rap song with an incredibly straightforward meter to argue that 'actually time in music is completely made up'.

I think it's very interesting that this song has qualities that trick people into hearing it the wrong way (myself included, trying to hear it correctly felt like swimming against the tide at first).

Back in 2001 when Roll Out was released, the UK charts were full of skippy 2-Step garage pop records. So as a Brit hearing it as ‘3’ it’s just like Ludacris rhyming over a Misteeq instrumental. I’m kind of sad that wasn’t what he was going for tbh

literally a generation of rappers doing 'offbeat rapping' came from that moment! it ended up being one of the most influential effects of his approach and you guys were insisting over and over again via 'occams razor' that he was a mere amateur who couldn't rap correctly!

― ok (D-40), Monday, August 4, 2025 3:13 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i meant to find the hemiola debate once but i noticed "cold lampin' with flavor flav" as a great earlier example esp after the "Innovative ill factors by the Flavor Flav/Come and ride the Flavor wavei/in any year on any given day" he really lags behind then sometimes rushes ahead of the beat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zumNTLFOt-8

this whole thread is a nuclear waste site and no response to it is virtuous in any way but i'll just say it's insulting to the phenomenon of meter drift and ambiguous meter to use this pop/rap song with an incredibly straightforward meter to argue that 'actually time in music is completely made up'.

― five six seven, eight nine ten, begin (map), Monday, August 4, 2025 4:37 PM (forty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

why is it insulting if its clearly divisive on a large scale ? isn't this the best possible example in that people seem to genuinely interpret the text differently? put aside whatever weird one sided grudge you hold against me

I think it's very interesting that this song has qualities that trick people into hearing it the wrong way (myself included, trying to hear it correctly felt like swimming against the tide at first).

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Monday, August 4, 2025 4:41 PM (forty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

the very fact that you have to *force yourself to hear it the 'right way'* suggests something no ? is 'the right way' prescriptive or descriptive ?

Just because it's tricky doesn't mean the people who are tricked got it right.

I never hear the downbeat of “Think Fast” by Meat Beat Manifesto in the right place until halfway through the first verse at “This feeling is bending my mind” but that doesn’t change where the downbeat is.

It’s also a hella cool trick

Been listening to the song all day, what a pleasure. Hearing it more and more as 3. The sample, the hook. That's what makes the song. The drum loop is cool and unusual. The idea that it needs to be different, because if we think of the song as different as to what it is, then it's easier to play live, even though it wasn't recorded live, and wasn't created to be played live, is just weird.

I'm kinda curious what the 'ONLY THE DRUMBEAT MATTERS!!!' people think of the chorus to Wuthering Heights...

why is it insulting if its clearly divisive on a large scale ? isn't this the best possible example in that people seem to genuinely interpret the text differently? put aside whatever weird one sided grudge you hold against me

― ok (D-40), Monday, August 4, 2025 11:29 PM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i don't hold a grudge against you personally, but i am irritated by these big clusterfuck argument threads that are mostly about people arguing with you. it's been at the top of sna for two weeks and it's getting kinda old imo. i know that's not all you are and you make rad contributions elsewhere so.

we've done this thread so many times. people hear meter differently. they get very adamant about what they hear. oftentimes there are arguments for one way that are more convincing. people aren't convinced. that doesn't mean that meter is just like open to interpretation all the time or whatever. it just means that there are grey areas. like with everything.

But we’re not talking about a text … like, we could discuss what “rolling on 20s” ~means~ but this is like arguing about whether something in a different paragraph is actually in the same paragraph even though there is a line break and an indent.

i do think there's something to the argument that meter and time signature are "objective facts". it's the structure that "allows" most western music from centuries back to now to be decoded, basically. in large part, it is an immovable reference point and a backbone.

on the other hand, i think it's easily demonstrated that meter and time signature can be slippery in certain instances. it sounds like the combination of phrases and syncopation in this one song has allowed a channel of that to happen. it also happens in other circumstances. like when a drum circle is playing - patterns shift and implied downbeats change. there are a million techno tracks with ambiguous downbeats, where you could literally pick any bass hit at any point in any 'measure' and it would sound 'correct' as the downbeat.

to respond in part to some of the arguments you were making about djing, i am of the opinion that most tracks that aren't hypnotic techno or whatever have a downbeat, have phrasing, and that it's important to honor collective understanding to match them in pleasing ways that make mathematical sense, so things sound "smooth" and dancers aren't taken out of the moment trying to find the downbeat again. that was personally very important to me when i djed. i observed djs mess that up time and time again, and it drove me personally crazy but i also could not deny that it threw most other dancers into a lurch too.

again, gray areas, certain circumstances, certain other qualities of the music, and certain predilections all combine together. i will cop to thinking there are absolutely people out there who just "don't hear music very well." not saying anyone in this thread is one of those people but i'm not gonna lie that it has crossed my mind lol.

my instinct is when djing the melodic line being 'one beat off' would actual sound 'stranger' than the drums being 'one beat off' but I guess we'd have to test that in reality

yeah melodic lines fall on the math of time signatures. time signatures structure everything. maybe this is a math imcomprehension thing? are you ok at math d-40? genuinely curious, no shade.

shit i got sucked into this wormhole! i got better things to do. peace.

lol. i'm very aware of how time signatures work. I played trumpet for like 15 years

maybe im writing in shorthand so you think im like, an idiot, when I think im making pretty clear sense? but if Jordan and I were to agree that the melody is what drives ppl to choose option 3, my point is that if you treat the melodic phrase as if it began on the "one" of option1/2, it would sound "off" to a substantial portion of listeners because they're hearing the melodic phrase of the new song, but the drums 'work' either way (options 1/2 or 3)

like, the entrance of the melody reflective of option 3 would sound 'right' to 'more people' while the drums can work either way

like d40 played the trumpet
I'll count that beat
And break you off something

start a poll for this, but already decided the correct answer and don’t really care about other explanations?????

Just about calling each other “wrong” and shit.. lame

thread was a total trap lol

Earlier on during this discussion, I spent time listening to the track and concluded that I could only hear "3". I am actually a drummer, or used to be, so I know how beats are typically structured and where the snare is usually placed. But in this case, I simply cannot hear the beat as other than version "3". That doesn't mean I think that interpretation is "correct". Most likely the other version is what was intended, as plenty of people seem to hear it that way without any effort, but I'm not one of them. I decided earlier on that there was no point in me spending time trying to analyse it further, plus I had got sick of that fucking horn phrase going around my head incessantly when I was lying in bed trying to sleep. Fortunately, I can no longer remember how it goes or bring it to mind, and I'm glad of that.

The idea that it needs to be different, because if we think of the song as different as to what it is, then it's easier to play live, even though it wasn't recorded live, and wasn't created to be played live, is just weird.

The idea that Ludacris & his band are thinking of it differently when playing it live is bizarre. It wouldn't be easier or harder to play #3 live, that's why the live versions are a valid Rosetta stone imo.

deej, please humor me here -- listen to the "it's my biz-nass" chant at the end of the song. How do you hear it? Through your logic, if you're hearing it through the #3 lens, "-nass" comes on the downbeat. Doesn't that sound weird to you, given how hard he's emphasizing "Biz-" in this very straightforward chant?

We've all agreed that the melody (following the displaced sample) is weird, and the verses are so busy and full of rhythmic energy that they sort of work wherever you put them. But how do you explain this section?

(and to everyone piling on deej, let me be clear that I'm still enjoying talking about this, lol)

my answer is its a coda so idk its just doing what it does ! it doesnt sound that weird to me to do diff patterns in different sections

Earlier on during this discussion, I spent time listening to the track and concluded that I could only hear "3". I am actually a drummer, or used to be, so I know how beats are typically structured and where the snare is usually placed. But in this case, I simply cannot hear the beat as other than version "3". That doesn't mean I think that interpretation is "correct". Most likely the other version is what was intended, as plenty of people seem to hear it that way without any effort, but I'm not one of them. I decided earlier on that there was no point in me spending time trying to analyse it further, plus I had got sick of that fucking horn phrase going around my head incessantly when I was lying in bed trying to sleep. Fortunately, I can no longer remember how it goes or bring it to mind, and I'm glad of that.

― dubmill, Tuesday, August 5, 2025 3:29 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is why it always seems like 3 is losing -- 1/2 ppl are strident rule-followers who MUST be right and option 3 ppl are like 'ok if u say so' types who dont want to get into a thing about it

look at what I sacrifice for us

deej

you okay, bud

what is the correct way to count the beat in 4'33

lol maaaan cmon

'ok if u say so' types who dont want to get into a thing about it

deej you 100% of the time absolutely want to get into a thing about it

i feel like you guys are stuck in this rigid prescriptive conception of trolling, as if the intent of the offending poster is what makes it trolling, rather than the "feel" of the posts and the lived experience of many posters who are sharing their perspective in the thread??

I have to say you guys are ignoring the larger question: what is reality

lol shit I’ve been meaning to post something about how I basically agree with deej ~epistemologically~ though I can’t explain why

More like epistemoLOLgically

dubmill otm is all I really mean, though I’m no drummer

This actually does touch on a question I have tried to get into several times on here but with little traction - in essence, “how stridently do you believe in the correctness of your empirical experience of music” - maybe the only effective way to get people to engage with that question is to bait them into responding angrily (i.e. the question can only be considered symptomatically)

I guess all of life is just a series of senseless, repetitive activities leading to either no result or an unwanted result. Could call this the Sisyphus/Syphilis Conundrum.

I think all we have is competing empirical experiences of varying degrees of persuasion, and theres lots of 'silent majorities' in many conversations

deej you 100% of the time absolutely want to get into a thing about it

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, August 5, 2025 11:55 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

thats the joke. I said 'look at what I sacrifice for us.' im the one person who is outspoken/willing to match the hardliner absolutism of the 1/2 ppl

I do appreciate it, because it's entertaining and a fun & innocent thing to argue about. I just need you to sign this document that says that while you're free to enjoy your subjective experience of the song, you acknowledge that it's different from how the artist & producer understand and intended it.

xpost deej truly and i'm not being snarky this has been a blast, to come out with a true classic ilm i'm a viking clusterfuck at this late date....it's like tiger woods at the 2019 masters

All we need is the gaz coombes revival

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mHggTYYb4

As someone whose brain defaults to '3' (on the recorded version) and is butthurt about it (fuck you Questo) I feel like Neely's theory about the 5-1 move in the bass is also why I hear it the way I do.

not a big fan of the youtube explainer format but that was a neat video

"there's always a correct way of listening to music and that is one is wherever the person paying you says it is"

well I guess that settles it then

🤨

I like that he establishes right at the start that Smart People who have read the Right Books understand that there is no correct way to listen to music and the people who disagree with that are all little Jordan Petersons :)

interesting part of that to me was how the shifting rhythm also implies different chords to the improvisor, that the latin feel comes out of the option 3 rhythmic reading

In fact he talks about how it's not just the V-I movement but the 'salsa language' at 4:26 "the A on the and of two accent which feels like an afro carribbean tumbao bassline"

also that the alcorn state marching band ended up doubling the root rather than having that chord movement was interesting. you could argue maybe it was tripping people up but is it just as likely they felt the composition needed to be shifted to 'resolve' the tension between the diff interpretations? Like these are good musicians

eddie palmieri just died im riding with 3 as a tribute

That video definitively made me hear the one on "Out". Maybe I'm ultimately a lyric person, but that reading of the Roll Out tag firmed it up for me.

jesus christ this thread

"out" is a pickup note

you're welcome

I don't think "Out" is a pickup note in either version, lol. Either "roll" is a pickup (real version), or "roll out" hits on beats 3 & 4 (deej version).

Technically Tracer is hearing 3 if “Out” reads as a pickup note, ie it’s beat 4

Neely is cool and his band Sungazer is a blast

Oh sure, just as a pickup to the downbeat (ie WRONG, j/k lol).

I hate his music but the Neely video is fantastic. Covers all the bases, really well.

And deej, if that doesn't convince you that you're hearing it "wrong", but for real and explicable reasons, then I don't know what else to say.

Someone in the comments mentions Snoop Dogg's "Beautiful", another great one that some people have trouble hearing. In that case there's a totally silent downbeat (except for when the hook is being sung), and the bass drum/guitar hit on the first upbeat. Incidentally they're playing essentially the same rhythm as the sung "Once in a Lifetime" chorus that messes so many people up. I think of that as a New Orleans clave (five dotted 8th notes starting on the first upbeat).

He admits at the beginning he’s framing it as “right” and “wrong” based on “who pays me” logic so no I’m not sold lol you like this bc it panders to the 1/2 ppl whose worldview depends on being “right”!

I don’t get the comparison to beautiful, that song has a groove that matches the snares that hit exactly on the backbeat in cut time

it also probably should convince people that even the most meticulously trained musicians can hear #3 and that questlove is a jerk

Like this is about where the groove is felt intuitively and the example of “beautiful” sounds like someone looking for a kick on the downbeat and not finding it but I have trouble believing anyone wouldn’t find the right groove regardless

I think aside from the v-I movement part of what we’re talking about is how the Latin feel of the horns implies a double time tempo that doesn’t “make sense” harmonically with the cut time rhythm. This is why when he improvised on the option 3 version he finds himself using melodies derived from Latin music. So it’s not just the v-I movement itself but also the associations w salsa that come at w double time tempo over those chords

The quarter notes in the wedding march give a different plod than the double time lift of the horns in roll out

He admits at the beginning he’s framing it as “right” and “wrong” based on “who pays me” logic

That was partially a joke, he's really saying it's worth trying to hear it as the artist clearly hears it. You're ignoring everything about cultural and genre vocabulary that also supports #1 as the "real" version. And everything about how it's worthwhile in all sorts of ways to try to hear and feel that version.

and that questlove is a jerk

He's not a jerk, he's saying that if you don't have the musical skill to flip/rotate it in your head to the way the artist hears it, you're not getting the gig.

I don’t think anyone on the option three side has ever suggested — unlike the other side — that there’s something ludicrous or “wrong” about hearing it he other way

Looking forward to seeing musicians throwing their instruments down and walking out when people dance to this “incorrectly”

Have more respect for the context they shout

I've watched about half of the Adam Neely video and read most of this thread and tbh I'm still not sure if I hear option 1/2 or option 3 or neither and I'm starting to think I might have the music equivalent of dyslexia

I don't care how people personally hear/feel the song - it's just the implication that Timba/Luda thought it was anything other than option 1 that pisses me off.

(option 1/2 i should say)

Looking forward to seeing musicians throwing their instruments down and walking out when people dance to this “incorrectly”

I have seen enough white people dance for this to not bother me anymore

it's just the implication that Timba/Luda thought it was anything other than option 1 that pisses me off.

Same (and that it's not interesting or significant compared to how you hear it).

Ok well I still think it’s presumptuous to assume you know what they thought and likewise that would they thought must be a decisive factor in determining how the groove ends up

*that what they thought …

I’m a terrible dancer but a somewhat better drummer and the way the beat makes me move instinctively is totally 1/2. I’d actually love to see videos of good dancers who hear it as 1/2 side by side with those who hear it as 3 — curious what that would look like. (Or maybe it wouldn’t matter? ARE people moving to it differently depending on how they hear it?)

Ok well I still think it’s presumptuous to assume you know what they thought and likewise that [what] they thought must be a decisive factor in determining how the groove ends up

… It’s presumptuous to say that the people who put together a song had any intention for or say in how it turned out? Or am I misunderstanding you?

I did like the bit about drummers in that video. It's a good point that drummers constantly have to practice displacing phrases, which have a melodic shape but not definite pitch. A lot of talk about "drummer tunnel vision" in this thread. But the drummer doesn't just keep the time like a metronome, they're responsible for outlining and supporting the structure of everything else. They're almost never playing a written part, so they have to feel and understand what everyone else is doing to make it work.

It’s presumptuous to say that the people who put together a song had any intention for or say in how it turned out? Or am I misunderstanding you?

― my favorite herbs are fennel and Drake (DJP), Thursday, August 7, 2025 2:25 PM (forty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It’s presumptuous that what is intended is necessarily what is produced. You put a cut time rap beat over a salsa sample and the alchemical reaction is unpredictable

I did like the bit about drummers in that video. It's a good point that drummers constantly have to practice displacing phrases, which have a melodic shape but not definite pitch. A lot of talk about "drummer tunnel vision" in this thread. But the drummer doesn't just keep the time like a metronome, they're responsible for outlining and supporting the structure of everything else. They're almost never playing a written part, so they have to feel and understand what everyone else is doing to make it work.

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Thursday, August 7, 2025 2:32 PM (forty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This song is a drum loop and a sample put together

I'm talking about the idea that drummers just listen to the drums when learning/analyzing music.

I don’t get the comparison to beautiful, that song has a groove that matches the snares that hit exactly on the backbeat in cut time

Oh, I'm sure there are people who hear the first note of the beat as the 1, with the snares on the upbeat.

the thing is you do know what the musicians thought when you hear them count 4. that's just the end of the hunt. it's a free country and we all love our thoughts so much, but that four count is the nail in the coffin of finding the one any place else except as a pet idea. I have plenty of pet ideas that are wrong too! I will never relinquish them! yall will never know the joy of my wrong ideas! but, I try not to construct a giant theory about how right and wrong are nonsense constructions failing to take into account that my wrong idea is cool and seems right to me.

Right and wrong are nonsense constructions when it comes to art which is interpreted by the listener and leaves its creator’s hands the moment it becomes a public piece

This conversation has become a bunch of dudes sniffing their own farts and proclaiming theirs the sweetest-smelling

Isn't that the board description?

xxp lol you are the one who literally asked "what is the correct way to count the beat" which implies an objective answer

suck it up, loser

also: DNFTT

I'm out

im not sure why im being called a TROLL for suggesting that the creator doesn't have permanent authority over the way a song is counted, that its interpretation by the audience is as much a part of its meaning in the world, but im glad that knowing how ludacris' band counted it off in a live performance of the song is so important to you

"oh we've 'uncovered' the 'correct' way because its creator said this' (timbaland and ludacris have said nothing of the kind)

A song's meaning is created by the artist and the audience for sure, but I think how musicians agree on meter and phrasing is in a different category.

(they don't have to say it, all the evidence is there)

Right and wrong are nonsense constructions when it comes to art which is interpreted by the listener and leaves its creator’s hands the moment it becomes a public piece

no, this is false. this is a generalization from the right claim that there's no gold standard for art -- if you like something, you like it, you're not "wrong" for not liking something. but Moby Dick is not a book about the life and times of Elizabeth Cady Stanton; you are wrong if you say it is, wrong forever no matter how cleverly you can make your case. learning, when we're young, how subjective response allows for a wide variety of interpretation: it's mind-blowing. extending that to "right and wrong are nonsense constructions when it comes to art" is a complete misunderstanding of the lesson.

It’s presumptuous that what is intended is necessarily what is produced. You put a cut time rap beat over a salsa sample and the alchemical reaction is unpredictable

Either this is just a bad metaphor or you really aren’t getting what a downbeat is? It is not an alchemical reaction, it is a formal structural element that you may “feel” differently, but it is what it is. Like these samples are placed on a grid. The grid doesn’t change.

And Jordan otm re cultural and genre vocabulary. Like, it’s very common in some genres for the groove to not “hit” on the 1. Like, deej, you are hearing it fine, but you are ascribing technical terms incorrectly.

It is not an alchemical reaction, it is a formal structural element that you may “feel” differently, but it is what it is.

this is a bizarre sentence, sorry. how one 'feels' the groove is what makes the groove what it is. I would argue that is the *essential constitutive element* of how one 'counts' the groove. Grooves can be shaped by a multitude of factors as has been discussed ad nauseum by both sides of this argument. some people feel it in different ways; it's my belief that the *feel* of the groove matters more than the Professional Studio Musician assumptions of how one counts the song.

no, this is false. this is a generalization from the right claim that there's no gold standard for art -- if you like something, you like it, you're not "wrong" for not liking something. but Moby Dick is not a book about the life and times of Elizabeth Cady Stanton; you are wrong if you say it is, wrong forever no matter how cleverly you can make your case. learning, when we're young, how subjective response allows for a wide variety of interpretation: it's mind-blowing. extending that to "right and wrong are nonsense constructions when it comes to art" is a complete misunderstanding of the lesson.

― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, August 7, 2025 11:14 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

is there a substantial population of people who think that 'moby dick' is about the life and times of elizabeth cady stanton? is there a controversy around this interpretation? in fact literature & the 'point' of literary works is frequently debated. this is a specific subject where not only are there popular opposing interpretations, but among *professional musicians* there are differences of opinion on how they *hear the song.* the central conflict in this thread, I think, as it turns out, is not whether or not one way or the other is 'correct', but about whether or not there can be a 'definitive' interpretation

Loved watching the Neely video. it pretty much voiced what I've been going through internally since realizing 5 days ago I've been hearing it "wrong" for 20+ years. Always thought the song had a bunch of weird rhythm choices - now that I hear it as 1/2 the song sounds more normal

As someone with an extremely limited understanding of music theory I've found this whole argument really interesting, so I have to say thanks to deej for that. Especially the stuff about the V-I in the melody, I hadn't even considered that that would play into how I heard a beat. FWIW it is definitely 1/2 for me although I can make myself hear it as 3 in the choruses (but not the verses).

this is a bizarre sentence, sorry. how one 'feels' the groove is what makes the groove what it is. I would argue that is the *essential constitutive element* of how one 'counts' the groove. Grooves can be shaped by a multitude of factors as has been discussed ad nauseum by both sides of this argument. some people feel it in different ways; it's my belief that the *feel* of the groove matters more than the Professional Studio Musician assumptions of how one counts the song.

Did you title the thread, "how does one feel the groove" or "what is the correct way to count the beat"? One is subjective, and one is not.

Now I’m kind of curious where people feel the downbeat in “Happy Birthday”

Keep hearing this but substituting JOL OUT

Lol this will probably sound dumb, but for a large portion of my life I just thought of happy birthday as a sort of formless chant, until one day I took a moment to think about it and realized 'oh, it's in 3/4 and "happy" is a pickup.'

This debate’s options are the practical use of asking “Are we human or are we dancer?”

When I dance I am literally a viking.

Lol this will probably sound dumb, but for a large portion of my life I just thought of happy birthday as a sort of formless chant, until one day I took a moment to think about it and realized 'oh, it's in 3/4 and "happy" is a pickup.'

I’d never thought about it until Dan’s post! (quickly came to same realization.)

Did you title the thread, "how does one feel the groove" or "what is the correct way to count the beat"? One is subjective, and one is not.

― il lavoro mi rovina la giornata (PBKR), Friday, August 8, 2025 6:27 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

The correct way to count it flows from the pulse not vice versa

You realize you are using words to mean things that aren’t what the words actually mean?

Like by “viking” I am referring to a prominent 19th Century feminist such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton

And because vikings were sea-faring adventurers, Moby Dick could actually be about Elizabeth Cady Stanton

"roll out" is about elizabeth cady stanton and her band of 12 viking studs "rolling out" to normandy.

The correct way to count it flows from the pulse not vice versa

That sentence doesn't really mean anything -- pulse is just tempo without specifying meter. You can certainly have music that has pulse without meter, which of course isn't this hip hop song. Meter is what this whole thread is about, because people disagree about the strong and weak pulses (or at least at this point, most people agree that the sample placement can make it hard to hear the strong and weak pulses correctly, for some people's brains).

Her twin glock 40s are actually her boobs

Cocked back = corseted

Rolling on 20s — 20s refer to the length of the oars operated by the viking studs

I feel like a bad person for saying this, but the correct way to count this song is neither mysterious nor particularly debatable.

I feel like a bad person for saying this, but the correct way to count this song is neither mysterious nor particularly debatable.

― whimsical skeedaddler (Moodles), Friday, August 8, 2025 12:35 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

The last person who popped into this thread to say this agreed with me but assumed he didn’t because I was taking the unpopular position

That sentence doesn't really mean anything -- pulse is just tempo without specifying meter. You can certainly have music that has pulse without meter, which of course isn't this hip hop song. Meter is what this whole thread is about, because people disagree about the strong and weak pulses (or at least at this point, most people agree that the sample placement can make it hard to hear the strong and weak pulses correctly, for some people's brains).

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Friday, August 8, 2025 11:39 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I can’t use the word “pulse” to indicate the broader pattern of “strong or weak pulse placement”?? Ok sorry for the incorrect useage. The meter should flow from the strong and weak pattern of the pulse not by the dictates of the drummer asked to translate a production made entirely on machines into a live setting

unfortunately, I do not also agree with you

xp

It’s “not particularly debatable” but there’s like five YouTube explainers about the controversy

being wrong has never been an obstacle to harvesting clicks

How many YouTube explainers are there about jet fuel melting steel beams?

So now hearing the pulse differently is comparable to a conspiracy theory. Before that it was “post modernism gone mad”. I swear you guys will take the most absurd positions just to show your allegiance to consensus

Cause the world keeps spinnin' 'round and 'round
And my heart's keepin' time to the speed of sound
I was lost 'til I heard the drums, then I found my way
'Cause you can't count the beat!

It’s “not particularly debatable” but there’s like five YouTube explainers about the controversy

But they all come to the conclusion that there's a correct interpretation, which is hard for some people to hear or internalize for all the reasons we've talked about.

not by the dictates of the drummer asked to translate a production made entirely on machines into a live setting

They're not translating it or changing it at all, the live performances just provide extra information that confirms how Luda actually hears his own song.

it's not a conspiracy theory, but it sure ain't music theory either, it's just incorrect, and the fact that people have the ability to take an opposing position and make YouTube videos about it does not actually validate that position

Have you considered that we are taking absurd positions in an attempt to demonstrate the absurdity of your position?

But they all come to the conclusion that there's a correct interpretation, which is hard for some people to hear or internalize for all the reasons we've talked about.

They don’t all do that, one of the guys was in team 3, but regardless, I can “hear” the 1/2 interpretation, I’m disagreeing w the (widely accepted) consensus that it is the “correct” one

Have you considered that we are taking absurd positions in an attempt to demonstrate the absurdity of your position?

― sarahell, Friday, August 8, 2025 1:20 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

By suggesting a widely-held experience of the song is a “conspiracy theory” you’re doing the opposite. It is a song ppl live with socially. If they elect to dance to it as if the “one” is where they hear it, it does not lead it out institutions crumbling

Though the way some of you act you’d think it was

Is this what Kellyanne Conway meant when she talked about "alternative beats"

is anyone on here saying "people are dancing to this wrong"?

By suggesting a widely-held experience of the song is a “conspiracy theory”

LudAnon!

Maybe this song never existed

Afaik the song was created without any required choreography so who gives a fuck about dancing and what dancers do in this context!

another nonsensical point from sarahell

is anyone on here saying "people are dancing to this wrong"?

― whimsical skeedaddler (Moodles), Friday, August 8, 2025 1:37 PM (fifty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yes?

No, I'm just saying dancers are not primary authority figures when it comes to analyzing or defining the meter of a piece. I truly don't care how people dance (although watching people dance to this would be a good indicator of how they feel the beat, for sure).

That the track would make someone physically react in an upbeat, salsa-esque, option #3 type of way is interesting and I get it, but that doesn't mean it's therefore the correct interpretation that takes priority over the milieu that Luda and Timbaland are working in.

wait, it just occurred to me that deej keeps making the argument "this is constructed in a computer so you can't apply regular music rules based on live performance counting to it" but in a way computer music is even more constricted to the bars/beats (usually 4/4) formula because that's how regions appear in most DAWs.

so the answer nearly has to be the kick drum that kicks off the song is the downbeat, right? Because that would literally be the first beat in the first bar/region of the project because it would come first on the track timeline.

so the answer nearly has to be the kick drum that kicks off the song is the downbeat, right? Because that would literally be the first beat in the first bar/region of the project because it would come first on the track timeline.

Yes, but, for the sake of argument, that doesn't prove anything, because it's easy enough to move everything and have it start from bar 2 or bar 3, preceding it with a lead-in note/beat on the 4th beat of the bar before.

Also just the point that the effect of the music is the determining factor not the grid in which it’s created

I think Jordan’s last post is sensible it’s just that the salsa feel overtakes the song for me in a way, like dropping cilantro in a meal in a way that dominates the other flavors

And I guess also I’m trying to call into question the concept of “primary authority figures” in general I suppose

Also not that it matters, but Timbaland wasn't using a DAW at this point, I'm nearly certain. Probably a sampling keyboard (Ensoniq ASR-10, Korg Triton). But I don't think deej is arguing about where Timbaland thinks the 1 is anymore, just that it doesn't matter compared to listener interpretation.

xp

it’s just that the salsa feel overtakes the song for me in a way

I think it may the same for me.

Having read several people refer positively to the Adam Neely video, I decided to watch it. My hopes were raised when he said that changing the pitch of the first note of the horn phrase helped in reframing the downbeat for him. His rationale for doing that was correct. But it didn’t work in reframing it for me. I still just heard “3”, but with the pitch of the first horn note changed. I think what I might find more helpful is to keep the first two notes (with or without the original pitch of the first note) but mute the third and fourth notes. It’s those two notes that do it for me. The final two notes are probably neither here nor there. As it stands, the bounce of the complete horn phrase is what pulls me a particular way, and it’s compounded by having heard the vocals so many times that the phrasing of those is ingrained as well, because they fit in a certain way with how I hear the horns. The drums I just perceive as playing a sort of incidental offbeat pattern, one that reinforces the horn phrase. I carried on watching the video some way after that point but eventually got bored with it. He demonstrated all sorts of techniques he used to help retrain himself, but nothing changed for me.

what happens if you just count 1 on the very first beat and go from there? I feel like if you lock in from the beginning like that, it should feel very natural after a few times through the riff.

what happens if you just count 1 on the very first beat and go from there?

I've tried that but I just quickly drift off into the other timing, because I can hear the horns and I perceive them in a certain way. Also, for the duration that I'm counting it correctly, I'm not feeling it. It just feels like, I can hear those horns, and I'm conscious at the same time that I'm counting 1, 2, 3, 4... but the numbers are in the wrong place. That's how it feels, and soon I drift off anyway as I can't keep it up.

The retraining method that worked for me was to mentally hear *every* note of the horn riff at the same pitch, and to think of that against the drums and the hook. Then I could maintain it when listening to the real track, and now can mentally flip back and forth pretty easily.

Can the subaltern count the beat

The retraining method that worked for me was to mentally hear *every* note of the horn riff at the same pitch, and to think of that against the drums and the hook.

I might have to make my own version of the horns and beat, then experiment with muting certain horn notes or, like you say, changing all the pitches.

I clicked on this thread expecting to rmde but this is an interesting discussion (although I’d rather drink paint than watch Adam Neely talk about anything)

Imo two answers can be correct. “Sweet Home Alabama” is I-bVII-V the whole way through but the band themselves play it as V-IV-I and have made it clear that this is how they hear it.

“Once In A Lifetime” deliberately and intentionally transplants the downbeat on its choruses— you can learn the song with the 1 following the verse template, or learn the song with the 1 following the chorus template, or even add some 2/4 bars if you want— they’re all correct ways to hear and play the song.

Ludacris: It sounds to me as if the studio recording was designed to be felt as 1-2-3-Roll Out-2-3. In the live setting— despite one hearing three clicks before the entry— the performance entirely suggests they’re playing 1-2-Roll-Out 1-2. The clicks, I feel, are perhaps a maguffin, like the live audio might’ve switched on late and the audience misses one.

Both can be the case; salsa rhythms are all about dampening and obscuring the downbeat, it doesn’t need to be one or the other in terms of how it is felt or how it is played. I would be interested to hear how Luda counts it— but even then his own way of hearing it wouldn’t need to be taken as ironclad, he counts it in the way that makes sense for him to perform it, that’s all.

Here’s an interesting clip about “get low”’s groove where I feel like the opposite is true — the drums are “true” time the horns are anchored to rather than vice versa
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DM8EiQrRTZp/?igsh=cTE3MWVmbGU2b3Qw

I've tried that but I just quickly drift off into the other timing, because I can hear the horns and I perceive them in a certain way. Also, for the duration that I'm counting it correctly, I'm not feeling it. It just feels like, I can hear those horns, and I'm conscious at the same time that I'm counting 1, 2, 3, 4... but the numbers are in the wrong place.

Pretty much impossible for me to even wrap my head around this because the riff that runs throughout the song starts with two quarter notes on the 1 and 2 followed by a snare drum on the 3, it counts the beat for the you!

This thread makes me think of a joke that was only funny to dad. He'd sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" but use "take" as a pickup with "me" being the downbeat, so the song would end with a half beat of silence in the final measure. He thought it was hilarious. Yet somehow hated Andy Kaufman

ok fgti hearing the live version with "out" as the 4 is fascinating to me because the live version really emphasises the snare and makes it sound more like just a typical half-time groove. i still hear the studio version the same way but it feels less obvious because the snare's fairly soft so it's at least a bit disorienting with all the syncopation elsewhere

Agreed, the audio on the live count-off is a little weird but everything else is crystal clear (fills/crashes, going on in and out of breakdowns and beat changes, etc).

I guess I don't really believe in multiple correct ways of hearing things, it's truly dependent on the cultural context of the artist and the way they hear it. That's been my experience trying to immerse myself in lots of different sorts of (mostly diasporic) music, it's my job to hear and feel it the same as the people who make and are immersed in it do.

Also fgti I love you but I still disagree about Once in a Lifetime, I think "days" falls on the 3 and the chorus vocal starts on the & of 1. No 2/4 bars necessary, everything's in 4 bar phrases, it just makes sense (no pun intended).

I think people can create something with intent in one direction and it 'comes out the other end' in a different manner regardless of their intent because of how rhythm can function. I dont actually think the artist has primacy inside the contest of 'cultural context'

Jordan you don’t need to express love to disagree with me (or Eno and Byrne, who have acknowledged the deliberate switch-up as being a product of their process; what I typed is “canon” insofar as it could be considered canon)… as D-40 states your hearing of “days” being on the 3 is disparate from artist intentions and/or process and that is fine that you hear it that way, even if I have never heard it that way, I think we can all agree that when a music creates the possibility of multiple interpretations that is a quality and an asset and a delight

I really do wonder if it would have been as big a hit if the sample was placed in a more obvious position.

Also it's dawning on me that it might be a uniquely drummers' plight to not have the luxury of a subjective interpretation. For anyone else in the band, you can play your part and even solo while thinking of the downbeat differently and it might still work, without anyone noticing. But I don't think you can get away with it as a drummer, which is why I initially found the discovery that I was hearing this song "wrong" so unsettling. I couldn't let it go until I got my head around it.

To me, Once In A Lifetime is a different situation where it is truly ambiguous because the vocal emphasis shifts between the verse and chorus. You can count straight 4/4 throughout and just let that emphasis fall where it will or count half bar transitions between parts in order to "fix" it, kind of comes down to a matter of preference.

Roll Out doesnt have this kind of ambiguity. The beat is very consistent throughout, and the riff and vocals stick with the beat.

To me the vocal in Once in a Lifetime doesn't pull my ear in any unusual way, it feels utterly straightforward to me. Which I guess is how some people feel about Roll Out, the ones who never heard the "first beat is a pickup" version.

i will probably always remember this as the summer i went around mumbling ’2-3-Roll Out!-2-3’ under my breath involuntarily for two weeks

Also not that it matters, but Timbaland wasn't using a DAW at this point, I'm nearly certain. Probably a sampling keyboard (Ensoniq ASR-10, Korg Triton). But I don't think deej is arguing about where Timbaland thinks the 1 is anymore, just that it doesn't matter compared to listener interpretation.

xp

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Friday, 8 August 2025 21:08 (three days ago)

that's interesting I can't even remember when DAWs took over anymore, seems like forever

THAT SAID:

Does anyone have a compelling reason why the first bass drum hit, the first moment of the song is not the one??

It just seems like the simplest, most logical thing, and it also clearly works if you count 1-2-3-4 from there.

It's Luda's Razor.

it's truly none of my business, my busnass

Btw I'm comfortable with ambiguity where it makes sense. I make music with someone who uses some generative techniques that don't always conform to bar lines or four bar phrases, and I love playing in pulse-without-meter situations, just vibes.

I don't think there's actually any ambiguity in these pop hits, just harmonic illusions that throw some percentage of listeners off. And when I sense that there's a clear structure that I'm not quite getting, I'm definitely more of a "solve the puzzle" than an "embrace the mystery" person, apparently.

yeah i'm surprised there's any debate here. like, the "so" is on the kick, the "money" is on the snare, it's really straightforward with a little bit of polyrhythmic decoration.

and i say that as a drummer who will still get slightly lost on where the 1 is on certain songs if it doesn't start with the drums.

Does anyone have a compelling reason why the first bass drum hit, the first moment of the song is not the one??

There are hundreds of rap songs that start with a pickup note. As discussed though I don’t think there’s even a disagreement about the idea that the drum loop was designed as a cut time first note/first beat loop.

The disagreement is around the feel of the song. I think the feel suggests a double-time count with a pickup. Several drummers think the count is exclusively about their jobs

okay so show me an example of one of these hundreds

i'm not a drummer and i honestly went into this with no agenda but it just seems like an extremely simple and obvious count

Deej it sounds like at this point you're acknowledging that the canonical, intended version starts on the 1. But you're defending your right to hear and prefer the pickup interpretation, yeah? As a probably unintended but more interesting (to you) version?

To me, Once In A Lifetime is a different situation where it is truly ambiguous because the vocal emphasis shifts between the verse and chorus. You can count straight 4/4 throughout and just let that emphasis fall where it will or count half bar transitions between parts in order to "fix" it, kind of comes down to a matter of preference.

Out of curiosity I looked up sheet music for the song, and all the versions I found have exactly that — a 2/4 measure leading into the chorus. That doesn't make it definitive, but it means that's an easy way for musicians to count it. (That would put "days" on the 1, which is where it feels like it is, but obviously if you don't do the 2/4 bar then "days" does land on the 3.)

I hung out with a music teacher friend of mine yesterday and we played "Roll Out" on his phone and he said something like anyone who picks option three just likes to hear themselves talk.

Also, I recently read that TH made "Once in a Lifetime" intentionally confusing

I am on tenterhooks waiting for where the goalposts will be placed next, folks.

Funny, it doesn't feel that way to me, but like I said I play a ton of New Orleans music based on a clave that's the same rhythm, all upbeats and offbeats except for the 3.

Also people should remember that even "official sheet music" usually just represents the opinion of one person who got paid to transcribe it, usually not verified by the artist who doesn't read sheet music.

That would put "days" on the 1

which is also where the strummy chorus guitar part also starts

too many alsos...

even "official sheet music" usually just represents the opinion of one person who got paid to transcribe it

For sure, it's just a way for musicians to make sense of the song, does not mean that's how they were counting it in the studio. But it does make that song's rhythms easier to navigate. I assume most people who play Once in a Lifetime just learn how to feel the groove and don't worry much about the count.

okay so show me an example of one of these hundreds

i'm not a drummer and i honestly went into this with no agenda but it just seems like an extremely simple and obvious count

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, August 11, 2025 2:44 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

California love ?

You guys keep talking down to me like I’m an idiot and it’s kind of annoying. No one is moving goalposts. From the beginning my position has been that the feel of the song, the predominant groove created by the song, is option 3

Not speaking of Jordan here who, despite being a drummer, has mainly not been condescending.

Deej it sounds like at this point you're acknowledging that the canonical, intended version starts on the 1. But you're defending your right to hear and prefer the pickup interpretation, yeah? As a probably unintended but more interesting (to you) version?

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Monday, August 11, 2025 3:00 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’m more than saying “it’s just my opinion” — I think the fact that there is a broader conflict about it suggests my “hearing” of it is representative of a wider question abt why songs are counted the way they are, the same prescriptive vs descriptive conflict we discussed at the beginning. I do think it’s obvious the drum loop was created with the one as the first note, I just think the resulting song shifts the groove forward a beat and ppl’s “difficulty” counting it “the right way” is reflective of the song’s *actual* feel

It doesn't seem very descriptivist to say that the way you (but not everybody) hear it is the 'actual feel'.

maybe you shouldn't have started the thread off with framing it as a question of "what is the correct" way

Maybe the thread title should have been (the totally noncontroversial), "Why does the feel of Ludacris' 'Roll Out' make it difficult to count the beat correctly?"

I don't think it is difficult to count correctly. I think it's difficult to *play* correctly

Same thing imo - if you can hear it and feel it correctly, you can count it correctly, you can play it correctly.

this is because we disagree over what 'correctly' is !

and because, once again, it's a song made by overlapping samples /mashup rather than live performance

Okay but there are live performances that resemble the recording and it’s super obvious where the downbeat is.

and they sound different

and because, once again, it's a song made by overlapping samples /mashup rather than live performance

― ok (D-40), Monday, August 11, 2025 5:00 PM (forty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

electronic music generally adheres even more to the beats/bars structure than live music! why are you acting like oooh samples and synths no one can possibly understand it could be in 5/9 or waltz time no one can say!!!

this isn't about the grid

I was a big fan of Remain In Light as a teenager (and still am) and have transcribed three songs from it to sheet music by ear for the purpose of either “doing a cover” or “uncovering the secrets”— in particular I’ve noted how the cut-up bassline to “Crosseyed And Painless” (iirc assembled from two or three discrete bass lines performed by two or three players) has no precedent in pop music, and is extremely difficult to perform as it is “on the album”, and has thus been adapted by Tina (and others) in different ways— Tina plays it differently on different tours, even. With regards to “Lifetime”, the verse and chorus were two separate ideas developed independently over the same loop, and both ideas placed the 1 in different places, and when stitched together, it caused a shift— this has been discussed more than once by Eno and Byrne iirc. I don’t know how the band dealt with “feeling it” in performance— I personally prefer added 2/4 bars, and even with that song etched on my brain I still might mess up the entrance of the synth lead that comes in after the third chorus.

I don’t know the truth about “Roll Out”, because I haven’t read any interviews from Ludacris or Timbaland on it, but my intuition suggests the following. There is only one way to interpret the studio version of “Roll Out” and that is 1-2-Roll-Out with the snare hits on the 2 and the sample’s first note acting as a pickup.

The reason why things get confused is because of the Leno performance. Watch Ludacris on Soul Train (no drummer) and it’s exactly like the studio version. My belief is that Ludacris’s drummer on Leno had a divergent (and perhaps) incorrect way of feeling the groove.

Live drummer is playing the snare hits on the 2 (1-snare-Roll-Out) but when he hits every break (when he sits out for Ludacris to spit a line), he hits it on beat 4– it sounds a beat early. I contend that the drummer himself was “feeling it wrong”. This point is further supported by the fact that the drummer literally shifts his groove at 2:00 and starts playing the snare on the 3– snare is now in the wrong place, but the drummer is playing more “in time”, feel wise, to the original studio recording.

Perhaps it’s all intentional! It suggests to me a lack of rehearsal, to my ears.

the drums on "california love" start on the 1, there's just that horn phrase that comes in earlier from the previous bar. even that first line that roger troutman sings before the beat drops starts on the 1, actually.

But yeah, check it out on Leno— count 1-2-Roll-Out and the drummer has the snare on 2 but it feels all weird and wrong. Get to 2:00 and suddenly the snare is on the 3 (which isn’t like the studio version) but it feels much more “together”

jay leno also said "word of mouth" instead of "word of mouf," the whole thing was just wrong

To quote deej's rhetorical style is "the closest weapon at hand"

I didn't know you meant specifically where the drum starts on the one, I was just picking an example where the BEAT starts on the pickup note. Do you really think there aren't examples of that where the drum serves as a pickup ? There are probably hundreds of thousands of songs that start with drum pickups across genre. insane contention. not sure how that's evidence of the 'closest weapon at hand'

It's also insane because, once again, no one on this side has argued with the idea that the initial half-time drum loop is 'off' in the option 3 interpretation

Never stop, everyone

You guys keep talking down to me like I’m an idiot and it’s kind of annoying.

you’re kind of doing it too, guy!!!

It doesn’t feel wrong at all, fgti, idk what to tell you.

fgti, when you say snares on 2, are counting in half time or are you counting the first beat as 4 (pickup)?

There is only one way to interpret the studio version of “Roll Out” and that is 1-2-Roll-Out with the snare hits on the 2 and the sample’s first note acting as a pickup.

Fgti, what's your reasoning for this? Most of us agree that "roll out" falls 4 - 1, and that the sample's first note is the downbeat, not a pickup. I know it feels awkward because the whole hook is constructed around the sample, which Timbaland plucked from a different part of the phrase and slammed on the downbeat (which I think is a very hip hop thing to do, even if it drove me a little crazy at first).

The Soul Train version doesn't add any information because it's just the studio track (I don't even think his vocal is live?).

But yeah, check it out on Leno— count 1-2-Roll-Out and the drummer has the snare on 2 but it feels all weird and wrong. Get to 2:00 and suddenly the snare is on the 3 (which isn’t like the studio version) but it feels much more “together”

Exactly - it's suddenly on the 3 without the count changing at all because it was on the 3 the whole time, and it feels more settled because they're playing the Big Pimpin' beat (whose downbeat we all agree on). That's the most clear smoking gun out of anything for me. There's no way the drummer was wrong, the band is together and sounds great, and the drummer is playing the same beat as the studio version (without those double-time programmed fills obv).

No, the drummer changes his placement of the offbeat at 2:00

And what? there is dissent about 1-2-Roll-Out? on the studio version?

I’ll listen again and get back to you

I think I might make some diagrams lol

I’m not a fan of Ludacris but I do love this song and his rapping is great on it, a pleasure to listen to it repeatedly

No he doesn't (the drummer), he just slams the snare on the downbeat when they break for a bar.

This is a wild journey

I only ever heard the studio version before this thread and I always heard "roll out" as being on 4-1.

I'm repeating myself here, but IMO the only way to hear "what in the world is in that bag" is with "world" on 1 and "bag" on 3.

I'm not on the clock but anybody who listens to the studio version of "Roll Out" and doesn't clearly hear that it's 1-2-Roll-Out is clearly not listening to the way literally everyone in studio including and especially Ludacris is weighting their phrasing, and if anybody wants to debate this fact please contact me at adam neely [at] yourclothears [dot] com

oh you're trolling lol, i see upthread where you were arguing the opposite. i should have known.

In deej's semi-defense I will say the pick up to Dem Franchize Boyz' "White Tee" drives me fucking crazy and I'm still not 100% convinced I'm hearing the song correctly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXBTeL2ssys

OK, 1:45 of the Leno performance is the indisputable evidence that 1/2 is the correct version

1. When the band switches to "Big Pimpin" — a song we should all agree where the downbeat is — they don't have to add a mysterious extra beat to get it to land. It flows effortlessly from — and back into — the on-beat version with the exact same count of 1-2-3-4 and without an extra (or missing) note that would make it sound weird or off to 1/2 listeners.

2. Why is it like this? Because the band is imitating a DJ switching between records. And no good DJ would kill a 4-count by adding or subtracting a beat. The transition is seamless.

3. But what if Luda hears it differently, you might ask? He doesn't. How do I know this? Because he continues the exact rapping style he does in the on-beat and studio version, and he does this on a beat where we can ALL agree where the one is. If that's where he hears the beat, he's obviously not doing the weird GLOCK style. He's rapping over a very solid 1, exactly where it would be on the studio version if you took out the beat and replaced it with "Big Pimpin" with no extra note.

He hears the whole song like he hears it over "Big Pimpin"

I mean, the Leno version simply doesn’t sound like the studio version! It sounds “off” idk how else to explain this. The riff feels totally different than the studio version, the attack is all weird

As I said earlier, it feels like the drums are anchored to the riff in the studio version. The Leno version is more like the lil Jon record I linked about up thread where suddenly the horns are following the drum’s lead

I feel like you guys are chasing an “authentic” “real” time in the song as if there were some “true” bit of composition paper out there w bar lines we could decisively prove I’m wrong but I’m simply not arguing w that perspective here. I’m saying the meter flows from the feel of the song and I think ppl wed to this Real Time miss something more deeply true abt how the song behaves

pretty sure the downbeat falls on the “yup!” in “white tee.” the snare hits on the 3 each time.

That would put "days" on the 1, which is where it feels like it is, but obviously if you don't do the 2/4 bar then "days" does land on the 3.)

Why does "days" on the 1 feel right to you? I cannot hear it like that, nor can I hear roll out as anything other than 3

Most a chord thing for me. Clear change from a Dm in the "1 2 roll out", to a Bb "1 2" then A "roll out"

Xp whiney — i hear the keyboard notes as being on the 1 and 3 in the white tee song.

Deej - the song behaves like a syncopated rhythm where even though the 1 is where it is, you feel emphases on other beats, like the way you are feeling/hearing it. There’s a push/pull aspect to that feel that makes it flow and move in an awesome way which I like.

Most a chord thing for me. Clear change from a Dm in the "1 2 roll out", to a Bb "1 2" then A "roll out"

interesting take - i don't hear any chord changes. or chords for that matter. there's the hook which is played in unison and the fast sequenced synth which is basically playing a drone.

even if you imagine a chord structure it's not a "clear change" at all. there's a huge gap between "forties" and "cocked" and you are mentally filling in where the chord change happens there.

it implies the chord progression of the sampled recording, the very latin-flavored movement from minor i to flat vi to major v

yeah, there is an implied harmonic progression, but there are not actual chords being played and where you place the changes depends on how you hear the song - it's not a clear change.

Not trolling, crut! Studio version is 1-2-Roll-Out.

It seems as if a confusing element in the studio version is the placement of Ludacris’s entrance on the choruses

He starts with “twin” on the downbeat. “I got my TWIN Glock 40s”, but when he comes back to it (leaving out the “I got my”), it’s “Glock” that falls on the downbeat: “twin GLOCK 40s”

This confuses my ear, might confuse the ears of others— including Ludacris himself (I’ll get to that in a minute)

The breaks on the second half of the studio version make it absolutely clear that it’s 1-2-Roll-Out; there’s really no other way to hear it

But that lead-in line to the chorus! Ludacris raps it differently on Leno— “I got my twin GLOCK 40s”— I wonder if Ludacris himself is confused by the entrance on the studio version? Highly possible that he rapped it over an unfinished production, or Timbaland shifted it, or something else. I don’t know why he’d change the placement otherwise

I need to dissect the Leno version bar by bar and cross reference with “Big Pimpin’” but my ears are still hearing it as “the band themselves were confused”

I thought you were trolling because upthread you said:

It sounds to me as if the studio recording was designed to be felt as 1-2-3-Roll Out-2-3. In the live setting— despite one hearing three clicks before the entry— the performance entirely suggests they’re playing 1-2-Roll-Out 1-2.

which is the opposite of what you're saying now!

I think you are being deceived by the fifth note of the scale being sung on the downbeat. Neanderthal's Flintstones parody thread is spot on, because that melody also has a fifth on the 1 and tonic on the 2. AFAIK there isn't any confusion about the Flintstones theme, though I could be wrong. I guess the bass drum hitting on both the 1 and 2 in "Rollout" is the other thing that confuses people.

and I will never, ever hear the prosodic emphasis on "GLOCK" that other people are hearing.

He starts with “twin” on the downbeat. “I got my TWIN Glock 40s”, but when he comes back to it (leaving out the “I got my”), it’s “Glock” that falls on the downbeat: “twin GLOCK 40s”

"Twin" falls on the same beat both times, he just doesn't sing the "I got my" pickup the 2nd time. He emphasizes "glock" a little more the 2nd time, but it doesn't fall on a different beat.

I mean, the Leno version simply doesn’t sound like the studio version! It sounds “off” idk how else to explain this. The riff feels totally different than the studio version, the attack is all weird

― ok (D-40), Tuesday, August 12, 2025 2:08 AM (nine hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

There is no possible way that Ludacris and his band would go on national TV and intentionally or unintentionally perform an entire song with the entire vocal part shifted one quarter note and the riff all fucked up.

The reason it sounds "off" to you is because it sounds like the studio version, which 90% of people agree is the correct and intended way to listen to "Roll Out."

Again, you’re implying that this is about uncovering the “true” “intended” sheet music reading of “roll out” when the studio version implies multiple grooves that are difficult to replicate live

I mean, the Leno version simply doesn’t sound like the studio version! It sounds “off” idk how else to explain this. The riff feels totally different than the studio version, the attack is all weird

You're getting confused by texture, the studio version is more deceptive because the programmed kick drums have the exact same emphasis on beats 1 & 2, while the human musicians are naturally emphasizing the phrase more clearly. The musical information is exactly the same.

"Twin" falls on the same beat both times, he just doesn't sing the "I got my" pickup the 2nd time. He emphasizes "glock" a little more the 2nd time, but it doesn't fall on a different beat.

You’re right! Idk why my ears were hearing it weird an hour ago.

The “E” (the upbeat according to me, the downbeat according to others) is late, which is “wrong” for a downbeat (but totally normal for an upbeat); Ludacris makes his “twin” late to match it, which is why my ears hear it strangely, perhaps

I watched that Neely video, breaking my hard moratorium on that guy, he makes good points but I’m not convinced in any way that the way he’d been hearing it for years (and the way I’m hearing it now) is wrong

Why not though? You're just getting let astray by your harmonic sense, but if you accept that:

1) The song has a standard half-time backbeat that's consistent all the way through (both studio & live).

2) Timbaland took this salsa sample that doesn't sound like it should start on the downbeat, and put it on the downbeat (and probably hyped the hell out of it in the studio).

3) Luda constructed his hook (and the 'roll out' response) to follow the sample exactly, which is why the emphasis sounds deceptive or non-standard.

Then everything makes sense and lines up perfectly.

You're getting confused by texture, the studio version is more deceptive because the programmed kick drums have the exact same emphasis on beats 1 & 2, while the human musicians are naturally emphasizing the phrase more clearly. The musical information is exactly the same.

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Tuesday, August 12, 2025 11:24 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

considering emphasis is a part of the argument on both sides here i'm not sure how 'they changed the emphasis so YOURE confused' is the outcome lol

as an example I think the word 'glock' is an effective one-count word and the word 'twin' is not, from a poetic pov it 'makes sense' for twin to be pickup and glock to be on the one. does that mean it IS that way? no, someone can of course make the choice to undermine the more effective use of a hard consonant sound on the one

1) The song has a standard half-time backbeat that's consistent all the way through (both studio & live).

2) Timbaland took this salsa sample that doesn't sound like it should start on the downbeat, and put it on the downbeat (and probably hyped the hell out of it in the studio).

3) Luda constructed his hook (and the 'roll out' response) to follow the sample exactly, which is why the emphasis sounds deceptive or non-standard.

we agree on all these but disagree that this means it should be counted that way if the groove pulls in the opposite direction of 'how it is supposed to'

You were talking about the riff, not the vocal emphasis. That's what I was responding to.

All of this talk of normal vocal emphasis doesn't apply here, because he's fitting it to the horn melody (which as we know is placed in an unsettled spot).

Well fine, then we're just back to "keep hearing it wrong if you prefer", lol.

the furthest I would go is if you're trying to recreate the song using live instruments you would likely need to count it the way the loop was originally intended

but for the live version to sound closer to the studio they would need to emphasize the ambiguity rather than turning it into a rushed rap loop (as they did in the Leno version)

you know most of the postmodernism sidebar itt was for lulz, but I'm starting to think the concept of "interpretive communities" might actually be useful here

Someone needs to do an oral history of the Leno performance and interview everyone in the band, lol

In order to meaningfully add to this enlightening conversation, I felt the only reasonable thing to do was make a TikTok video of me clapping and counting in an obnoxious manner while I make a poor attempt at "singing" this track.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTHspFh2W6jnw-vc8Y5/

Holy fucking shit, I don’t remember the last time I’ve been this wrong about anything. It is 1-2-3-Roll Out on both studio and Leno

The studio version feels like it could be the other way— because of the V-I movement of the sample (as Neely mentioned), because of the feel of the sample and Ludacris’s vocal performance

Listening to Leno and trying to puzzle it out just made my head spin— but relaxing and counting it properly it all just falls into place— clocking the Big Pimpin quote def helped

Returning to studio version and now I can’t hear it any other way

This is like an aural Magic Eye puzzle or something

Someone needs to do an oral history of the Leno performance and interview everyone in the band, lol

― Jordan s/t (Jordan), Tuesday, August 12, 2025 12:49 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Trust me, I've been wanting to pitch a story on this, but I have to put my focus elsewhere in the next few months

This brings me much relief, as I was genuinely starting to think I was going insane.

xp

welcome to reality, fgti

This is like an aural Magic Eye puzzle or something

Haha, this is what I've been saying, glad you've turned it around!

Whiney, please make this happen.

Btw in White Tee, I hear the synth bass on the & of 4, & of 1, and 3. And the high keyboard notes on the 'e' of 1 and 3. It feels pretty solid to me with the backbeat even though nothing is actually hitting on the downbeat (similar to 'Beautiful'). Now I want to start a different thread about songs with silent downbeats.

Hahahahaha Moodles that is amazing

i was searching for someone who plotted out and quantize the pitched down sample on an MPC and lo and behold:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMjvO3Ss3Z9/

his recreation is not 100% faithful as Tim's ASR-10 tonebank but still, for the grid headz, this is the blueprint.

Nice

this is good, though it lacks the panache of my clapping and counting version

I’m jealous I don’t hear music in the way you guys do. Half the time i’m only vaguely aware of what instruments are being played, much less all the stuff above.

I <3 the clap and count. Someone should leave that on D-40s vm

it would make a soothing ringtone

I feel like you guys are struggling to see someone framing your argument in terms beyond “ability to hear”

Moodles is a hero.

Shasta's Insta link seems pretty definitive, no?

Yes if you set the loop downbeat where you think the downbeat already is it will reinforce your existing assumption

but what if that matches where the sample is in the actual song?

This is question begging! Where it is in the song is the question being debated

you're the only one itt who still thinks a debate is happening