Stop blaming ravers for drug use!

here is a picture to cheer you up, it is my friend the psychedelic porpoise:

http://www.theoriginalsoundtrack.com/ile/dolphinthumb.jpg

Yes we do follow PLUR which is PEACE LOVE UNITY AND RESPECT.
Okay, I really fucking hate you now.

Stupid rave-speak. And on that note, a raver going to a rave for anything BUT the drugs? That can't be possible.

i have been listening to various styles of electronic/rave music for about 4 years now. almost all of the ravers i have talked to really dont know too much about the music. maybe it is just the ravers i have talked to, but they always seem to be more interested in partying, taking drugs, and bullshit idealism than the actual music. raves are boring if your not on drugs, no one wants to see some grown man clutching a teady-bear. ill leave you with a fine addict records quote:

DO YOURSELF A FAVOR
PUNCH A RAVER

peace out.

That's so insufferably condescending it makes me head spin.

'Buzz' was a college student's narcotic Timbuktu, labeled by press twits as the biggest club night in America (they having never heard of 1015 Folsom, apparently). All the actual big pants glowstickers I know eschewed the joint and went to the big outdoor/warehouse events outside the Beltway. When Buzz shut down it didn't even make a dent in the rave scene. It just made the dealers move to another night for their downtown business.

Saying that 'Ravers' are there for drugs more than music is like saying rock n' roll concertgoers are there for the expensive booze, not the bands (Well, in my case, I'm there for the merch, but hey). If they didn't care about the music they'd just page Rasi like the smart addicts and have a dropoff made.

I disagree about electronic music moving back underground. I think if anything it's more mainstream now, which may be why it's not getting as much press, but a ton of kids still eat that trance shit up like it was Pocky.

I have gone to plenty of raves in my time, and to this day I miss those crazy warehouse parties from back in the day. Drugs were there, but I do not think they were the entire focus of the event. I am sure that they were the only reason some of the people were there, but there were more who were just there for the atmosphere.

I can only speak from my experiences in Detroit. I went to my first party in 94, and started going weekly to clubs and parties in late 95.
In the beginning the parties were not nearly as drug oriented as they are today. I will not deny that drug use was happening. I was taking drugs every so often, but they were not the reason I went. I was there for the music and the atmosphere. I probably sound old, but I feel sorry for the younger people who missed the heyday of raves in the Midwest/Detroit.

One thing that I did find was the more the media played up the drug aspect of raves the more druggy the events became. To outsiders (and in 95 if you didn’t know the right people you could not find out what was happening) the idea of raves just became a place where you ingest as many drugs as you can and wear silly clothes. People informed by media rather than by the music culture itself started dragging the whole thing down.

These days I don't think there are raves in Detroit; everything has gone to the clubs. After 1998 everything started going hill. Each year the drugs and the problems associated with them kept getting worse. Detroit raves eventually became drug dens. The fashion and the drugs were played up, and the music and the dancing were played down. When I first started everybody danced and they went nuts, and as time passed more people just started to stumble around drugged out of their minds.

It is sad because it was a beautiful utopian experience back then. I look back at those days with a great deal of fondness. The vibe of those old Detroit warehouses with the Detroit DJ's when they were at the peak of their powers was incredible. I would always think to myself that there was no place on earth I would rather be, and that the rest of the planet was missing out of something incredible that came from our little backwater town. It sounds provincial and close-minded, but we did have something special back then that nobody else had.

Case in Point: Control III, this past labor day at Detroit's City Club, a notorious industrial/goth club. Richie Hawtin was spinning from about 2:30 a.m. until whenever. The club was packed, and beastly hot. You had to push your way into the main room and found...a bunch of kids standing around with their arms crossed. Less than a quarter of the people on the floor could be bothered to actually dance. Maybe this is the norm these days, but I was actually a bit offended. Richie is a Detroit Techno legend, albeit from Canada, and was not getting anywhere near the respect and crowd response he deserved.

Maybe it's patronizing to say "things were better back in the day, these new kids don't appreciate the music/scene/whatever anymore" but it rings pretty true here in Detroit. These shows are more of an excuse for suburban kids to take drugs in the city than anything else; and I am not necessarily against drugs. I just wish the artists got some appreciation.

btw, nice to see you on the board, Mike.

I also don't think that anyone here would blame only ravers for all drug use. Drugs have been around for a very long time. Most styles of music have drug associations. Bebop was heroin, Psych Rock weed and acid, Punk had amphetamines... There are a fair amount of people on this board who either have or do use drugs, so i doubt many of us would criticize ravers specifically, or anyone else in general. If anything, this board is sympathetic to problems that individuals may have with drug abuse.

All of that being said, some of the negative attitudes towards ravers are not without justification. The few raves i have been to, as opposed to club nights, have been characterized by a lot of people sitting on their asses too fucked-up to move. Even those that seemed to be drug-free were just too bored, tired, or cynical to do anything at all. If rave wants to survive, it needs to live up to the rhetoric it constantly sputs. Lindsey, I am sure you mean what you say. If you were one of the lazy ravers I mentioned before, then you would probably not make the effort to start this thread.

Another criticism often heard regards the fashion aspect. According to many I have spoken to, the original raves in NYC and elswhere involved a lot of people in jeans and t-shirts. I don't care that much about what clothing people wear, but it is hard for many to ignore the conformist aspect of so many people trying to look exactly the same. If Rave is about the music, then why is so much effort spent on everything else? As opposed to ravers, most of the club kids and club djs I know are much more casual about their clothing. They spend all of their money on records!

Also, comments above about a lack of music knowledge within the community of ravers have held true in my experience as well.

I have been listening to electronic music for 8 years now, and have owned turntables for almost 2 and a half years. In that time, the rave scene has almost become a parody of itself. There are a lot of good people still involved, but I still can't help feeling sad about what has happened. I am a very idealistic person, but, ultimately, PLUR means shit unless it is acted upon instead of just spoken :-)

Alex do you have a piece of string hanging out of your back?

"they always seem to be more interested in partying, taking drugs, and bullshit idealism than the actual music."

This is a largely false dichotomy. Music and partying, music and taking drugs and music and bullshit idealism all work perfectly together.

Which is to say: one can love music and love taking drugs designed to work well with music and these things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I'm often surprised that more music obsessives of all stylistic persuasions don't regularly use ecstasy.

this doesnt have much to do with drugs or anything, just a matter-of-fact statement

although rave america style is weaker than it was, the term still makes more sense there than here (although americas rave subculture seems a LOT more middle class and whitebread (even preppy?) than in the uk)

2. I don't feel any obligation to dance. Dancing is not paying tribute to the people who made the records (they're on records, they don't care what I do), and, even if an act is playing live, they can't see me! I dance when the mood strikes me. And I certainly don't feel obliged to dance just because lots of other people are, I'll stand with my arms folded if I damn please.

3. Tom Millar, if you know of a place I could spin - for anybody - near DC, could you e-mail me with contacts? My demo's free to anyone who could help. I think I'm pretty good in a VERY abstract way (decks, sampling and...lots of EFX). Please, I'm operating in a vacuum here.

I hate the way it manifests itself mostly, which from my experience tends to be, "Man, I love you and think you're fantastic while I'm hopped up on E and I see you dance, but if I saw you on the street I'd nervously cross the street and check my wallet." It's yet another manifestation of the ways that teens/young adults segment themselves into homogenous hive-minds.

Good lord, I do! Never noticed it before.

HTF!

("honor the fire")

this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. well, not the stupidest, but one of them.

This collective already exists:
http://www.manowar.ch/e/images/hail_to_england.jpg

Sounds like they got the wrong drugs.

I hate the way it manifests itself mostly, which from my experience tends to be, "Man, I love you and think you're fantastic while I'm hopped up on E and I see you dance, but if I saw you on the street I'd nervously cross the street and check my wallet." It's yet another manifestation of the ways that teens/young adults segment themselves into homogenous hive-minds.

Dan proves again why he is a very wise man.

So, there were some punk rock shows in the Olneyville section of Providence. And so I went to the one at Munch House, in an old mill building. In that same building is a space (which I don't know the name of) where a rave was going on. Some raver kids beat up a couple of punk rockers, and smashed a whole bunch of car windows around Troy and Oak streets. I already thought ravers were kind of assholes, and this just reinforces that. Given that these are just a few 'bad apples', but I've never met a raver who had qualities that changed my stereotype of the culture.

Lastly, you could just call it CONAN, 'cause that's his line anyway.

True story:

In a neighboring town there used to be a rave club called 'Euphoria.' Or 'the Euph' for short. It was shut down for drug violations.

You need to talk to your countryman Bono...

Ah well, you see, that'll be down to the drugs.

We brits (building on some fairly blatant hints from the black community in the US) invent a genre of music, a culture, a way of dressing etc. and it's meant to be FUN. ... OK? FUN?.

We try to export it to America. And we stupid brits are like "yeah, this is gonna break in the US, this is gonna conquer America" like we wanna replay Beatlemania.

And then middle-American, middle-class white kids who are bored out of their fucking minds in the middle of nowheresville latch on to it. They take it way too seriously; turn it into a religion, a tribal code in school, an excuse to get beered up and fight each other.

The music (and message) gets diluted. The look gets more important.
The drugs get more important. The moral backlash comes and goes.

We brits complain that the Americans don't really get it. And anyway, they're 10-15 years late anyway.

Happened with rock, punk, goth, now rave. Why's anyone surprised?

Dan also makes a fair point. These things shouldn't need to be codified.

I thought Genesis P-Orridge did that.

Some Germans would like to have a word about that, I think...

America's Southeast informed me that it would also like to speak on behalf of its part in the creation of rock music.

-who came to the conclusion long ago that scenesters anywhere in the US suck no matter what scene it is-
Alan

That's it though Ro, you must know the kind of people I'm talking about, even though you're not one yourself? The majority of people out clubbing probably act like you, but there is that faction who'll be all "Yeah and then we did so much ketamine we couldn't move for four hours and then we started doing massive lines of coke, still haven't been to bed yet mate!"

why is the 'all about the music' card being played here anyway, i though ilx was an 'all about the music man' free zone...dance music is about drugs. so what! you tell me, when you're out at the peak of the night or whatever, and the dj drops a massive tune, and you look round and everyone is totally going yeeah, with massive grins and hugging each other and all that business, and you feel ACE, that its just about the music? no, its about a whole load of things including the music. it doesnt exist in a vacuum....

i have lots of things to say about plur and stuff, and about how there was a great deal of utopianism about rave during its uk explosion, and that the social fabric of its constituency was hugely varied and inclusive, and the fact that thats some kind of creed for a totally different situation in a different country with a different social constituency, but i'm in koln and am pushed for time so thatll hacve to wauit

call me naive, idealistic etc. but i always liked the idea that that COULD JUST be about the music and the 'PLUR' or whatever....but of course it never really is...but i dont mind that either. although i never took drugs myself, i would never have found the whole acid house/rave scene/culture so great without them

On the contrary, I think there's merely an underlying assumption that the drugs everyone else uses / the way everyone else uses drugs are very bad.

Well, my tongue wasn't entirely out of my cheek.

when i started going,i saw them as part of the techno scene,and to a large extent they are,although fans of other types of music go along as well,and at this stage there are usually several rigs...

i have seen rigs playing techno,drum and bass,gabber,house,trance,hiphop,traditional irish music,and god knows what else,although techno is still probably the most common,at least at the ones i go to...

as for people's motivations:

music-a lot of people go because you get to hear some quality djs,and the events go on all night,rather than ending at three like all clubs have to...also,although there are,for example,now some clubnights which play gabber(usually put on in winter by the party organisers),in general you will hear music you wouldn't normally hear in dublin...within the group i hang around with,most of us are fairly into techno,and it would be one of the main reasons for going...however,other mates who aren't into dance music often come along for the laugh,and usually enjoy themselves...

drugs-people do take drugs at them,but it wouldn't be the main issue...i have taken drugs at some and not at others,and have had just as much of a laugh while stone cold sober,and i'd say the same would go for almost everyone i know...

fashion-not an issue at all...i wear jeans and a tshirt and a hoodie,with spare clothes to keep warm...the idea that fashion would play a part is so absurd to me that i can't even begin to describe it...the only recurring party specific sartorial element i associate with free parties is people wearing sleeping bags like coats in the morning...

the main motivation,though,is more abstract-there is great music,the people in general are a laugh,although there is no pretence at some great unity,people do their own thing...
the philosophy is very much if you don't like it,do your own thing...if you hate techno,bring along a rig that plays what you do like (and people do this),if you got sick of sitting around in the morning,bring a football,etc
instead of paying into a club and being completely restricted,you can actually do what you like...its great in the morning when you look around the beach/forest/quarry,and see people playing football,reading books,cooking food (often provided for free),going for a walk around the area,lying in the sun,going for a swim,just doing what they like...

as for people being too fucked to do anything,well people go to gigs and get too drunk to stand,and some people do get fucked at parties as well,but in general it always amazes me that at eight in the morning,people who have been up all night,whether drinking,taking drugs or neither,are usually still wandering around,having a laugh,dancing,etc

there's no all encompasing idealism or claim to unity,but the fact is people do put a lot of time and money into organising something like this so that people can have a laugh...they wouldn't dream of saying plur or whatever,but when you see someone cooking up a stew,banging out cups of coffee,handing out black plastic sacks for people to clean up,or driving to the nearest town to get petrol for a generator,they are doing it for the common good,and while its not some utopian paradise,in general the people are a good laugh,and always helpful and friendly...
i should really write an article about them and articulate properly what i mean,but hopefully you get the gist...if anyone in ireland is interested,let me know and i'll send you an email when the next one is on (although it won't be till about april)
so does anyone else go to free parties?
we were at a fucking huge one in holland over the summer,which i cant even begin to describe,(ok,well,thousands of people,about a hundred rigs,all in the shadow of a nuclear power station...)i gather there are frequently huge ones like that on the continent (theyre known as teknivals)anyone been to one?

Any parties I go to are always drum and bass or techno, and the people there tend to hate house, I just got used to it ages ago and if I want to stay out all night and listen to house I wait until I can bring some mates home.....

And on some level I'm impressed that all of this works as well as it does -- when the payoff of the thing is to be driven absolutely nuts like never before, you'd think the inevitable problems would be way worse than they currently are.

And yeah, that's a terrible thing to start doing: I doubt there's anyone in the world who would deny that doing a lot of stimulants every weekend for years is going to mess with your life in ways that go far beyond just health issues. And it's the same with the non-drug aspects as well. Personally I know I don't have the money, the energy, or the time for hardcore clubbing to be anything more than an occasional treat, because it does mean restructuring your life in ways I'm not inclined to. This isn't much different from a boozy wannabe L.A. rock-show lifestyle, though: the point is that over-devoting yourself to this stuff can leave you just plain burnt out.

this was only two years ago,but it really did seem like that at the time-other than tuesday and saturday switch there didn't seem to be any other techno nights on (this was not the case of course,there were regular one off djs and there was dfuse on friday)
i remember things like people sounding amazed saying "hey,did you hear there's going to be techno at creamfields"

it seems wierd now,cause techno has kind of taken over dublin (albeit this kind of homogenised dave clarke/umek techno,some of which is great,a lot of it in fact,but it seems that although there's loads more techno on,we end up going out less,because it seems like it'll all be the same...)

as for news years,i don't think i'm arsed going to a club (don't really like dave clarke,would love to see jeff mills but fifty snots to stand in a packed redbox unable to move?)but there is a collabaration between d1 (detroit techno purists to the extent that they're listed as "operatives"or some shit on the underground resistance website)and dfuse (extreme hard/acid techno/gabber heads)which is odd,its like the two extremes of the dublin scene have come together to try and offer an alternative to the middle)

i reckon i'll just stick to a house party though

is there no big name house event on in dublin on new years so?

Ah.... um, well, err, it's like this you see....

Yes.

No real house night on NYE, Spirit has some shameful residents night for 55 euro or something absurd, I think my friend may be in Tivoli DJing before DC so if so I'll go there, Tivoli's my favourite club by miles anyway, Red Box is a shithole, no way would I pay 50 euro to go there, I'd be reluctant to go there for free if that was a possibility.

Going back to the other issue I don't think the bigger and bigger thrills thing is it really, it's just really getting to love the same amount every week, I don't think the people who do massive stacks of pills can really enjoy themselves that much, it just fucks you to the point where you don't even know your own name/can't walk/can't talk. But that's not to say doing the same amount once a week every week for ages is totally ok, that's what I was referring to and I think it does affect your ability to function a little. I'm talking about bothering to stop and talk to people on the street, attention span, energy levels, tolerance levels, things like that.

i still haven't been to the tivoli,oddly enough,but i'll definitely be going along to andrew weatherall,whenever that is...
as for the redbox,i don't think its as bad as people make out,but on new years it'd be hell...i'd probably prefer to see jeff mills than any other dj in the world,but i'd sooner wait and go somewhere i could enjoy it without hassle (eg,last new years some mates of mine saw him at a "lost" party in london,in a comfortable venue,with no hassle,curfew,room to dance,etc...)

I guess what I miss at the techno nights is the DJ playing some particular tune which happens to be really hot at the moment and everyone going insane, the differences in how techno and house are produced and consumed are pretty big. House always has a few massive tunes at any given time, I'm not sure this is true of techno, or if it is they're big enough that I hear them at house nights anyway. I think techno is a more immersive thing alot of the time and for longer in a set, unless you've got some big unsubtle mug hammering out really hard but accessible stuff (I like this sort of thing, haha)

I mean house nights at the end of the day are a bit of a party, and I'm a sucker for some cheesey french stuff or whatever at the best of times. I haven't listened to enough techno to really love a techno night, I'll see how this Saturday goes though, Detroit stuff is different I'd imagine.

Re:public domain etc, I'm sure one of the moderators can change your comments if you want, personally I'm not too worried.

and while i agree to a certain extent about wanting to hear tracks that you know,that's only up to a point,in general i want to hear stuff i haven't heard before with a few quality tracks i already know thrown in...i used to be more into the idea of hearing tracks i know,but i realised if you're dancing you'll enjoy a quality track whether you know it or not...

now that i think of it,you probably are right in describing techno as more immersive,although i wouldn't have really thought about it that way...

one of the things with techno is that the mix,in my opinion,should be almost seemless,so that it seems like this neverending,uninterrupted stream of techno,which is why dave clarke wrecks my head a bit (all that fiddling with the effects,etc,breaks the flow in my opinion)
its mainly detroit djs and people like richie hawtin and d1 in ireland who mix like this though...the new wave of umek types don't seem to...
the idea of one track slowly replacing another,without any fucking around on the decks or whatever,might sound boring,but if you've heard live at the liquid room,that's a perfect example of what i'm talking about...

hmm,i never really thought about it like that though,its interesting to see how other people view going out clubbing...its wierd that you'd find the techno crowd rude,i can obviously think of people who are into techno with their heads up their arses,but i wouldn't say they'd be the norm...

I think the difference is that house tries to do 15 minutes of one feeling and then 5 of another, rather than blending things together, like a good house mix has those bits where it's really rolling and steady and then maybe a deep type techno track or proggy house track pressurises it all for a few minutes and then something cheesey and bouncey just comes back in. It's very different actually, and I think like all dance music when you get very used to one type of set it's not so easy to just put that aside and get into another.

I don't mind hearing tracks I don't know either, but at this stage I tend to know alot of the tracks at the house nights just cos I have such an interest. The only other type of dance I've been able to get into easily is breaks, which I feel is just an extension of house. I don't know if you've ever been to any of the Food nights in Dublin but they're always a good laugh.

It's not that I really dislike techno, I just prefer house, I'm sure I will probably get techno a bit better at some point. I think I like Dave Clarke cos it's really obvious and he does just bang it out in a kind of obvious way, and also the electro connection is good. But I still think the ways of reacting to house and techno are always different, techno is a kind of visceral fist shaking vibe to me, very serious, that's a matter of perspective I suppose though.

the suburban knight gig should be fairly different,but d1,who are running it,are the ultimate take it too seriously techno purists,at least according to reputation....this isn't really the case,(i think the slate did a lot of referring to them as no fun d1)but within dublin they're actually the most obvious "techno snobs"...the music will be a lot less hard though,and i think d1s reputation is at least a little harsh...
as for the "gay house"complaint,i see what you mean with that,usually if we're at a party it is kind of expected that it'll be techno most of the night,but in fairness this is usually a party on after a techno event...the floor does tend to clear fairly quickly if someone starts playing house...perhaps the anti-house thing isn't entirely reasonable,but i'm not going to pretend to like something,if someone is playing house i probably won't be arsed dancing,i'm more likely to sit down and roll a joint and wait for something i'd be more enthusiastic about...
i can see how that would be annoying if you did like house though...
as for breaks,i dunno,they always remind me of big beat...a good laugh for a bit,but i can never really be too enthusiastic about them...i haven't heard much,just the odd half hour of someone's mix now and then,so i can't really judge,but i haven't heard much that interests me...

preppy -- i don't know about that! -- but def. pretty white and middle class...

maybe the prob with rave in america (if there was one) is that it never was a failed interpretation of the british scene, getting some things right other things wrong but ultimately developing into its own thing...

it always seemed to me like just a pastiche of the british thing...

gareth tell us what you think was wrong with rave america style, so that we can contradict you...

whereas in britain, the people were from the same backgrounds

still waiting...

"i have lots of things to say about plur and stuff, and about how there was a great deal of utopianism about rave during its uk explosion, and that the social fabric of its constituency was hugely varied and inclusive, and the fact that thats some kind of creed for a totally different situation in a different country with a different social constituency, but i'm in koln and am pushed for time so thatll hacve to wauit"

i said this, and never extrapolated. well, im in a rush again but, ill have a little go...

i dont think 'plur' actually existed in britian during rave, i may be wrong, but i never heard it. but the sentiments were there to a certain extent. blackmarket ruffneck utopian blag culture. proletarian/suburban, mixedrace. im not saying it was some pie in the sky utopia, many of the people you would be dancing with would cheerfully rob you in the week. the football hooligan turned love thug thing is well documented, although that was before my time by a few years (89-90)...

...but the point is there, these were the kids off the estate, your blagger mates, in with bourgeois crusty dropouts, social diversity but prole led, everyone in together. plur wasnt invented i think a better approximation was the urban shakedown lyric...

"every posse and crew the future is out there before your eyes"

which, to me, gets the ruffneck element, the street element, this was not a whitebread middle england/middle america bourgeois scene. so the naivete was for real, the idea of something really new, the dream etc

those sentiments then transplanted across the atlantic but to a different social continuum, less diverse? (my knowledge of america the rave less accurate for obvious reason). the social context which backed up the idea which became plur was just not there in america as i see it. which means the message of inclusivity became a fallacy, because who exactly was being included in this supposed inclusivity???

not the inner city kids, not the ghetto, not the poor people. to me it seemed an upper middle class pursuit in america, exacerbated by the fact that the original warehouse parties in chicago and detroit were so different in makeup. that huge gap was not present in the uk, all those people would have been thrown in together.

which is why 'plur' is a lie in america, a simulacra of an already dead dream

Top post.

The funny this about U.S. rave now (yes, it still exists) is that it seems to be hitting mostly the more working-class small-town south and the "heartland," from what I can tell: big cities are a bit over it, but it seems like high school kids in Kentucky or wherever are still going strong. The problem is that the great hand-me-down of the idea has resulted in something that's basically a caricature of rave -- glow-sticks, Seuss hats, etc. -- and that the idea of it as some sort of collective special thing has completely evaporated, necessitating all of this sloganeering ("PLUR") to try and reanimate it.

the american scene is definitely different. I don't think that the characterization of the scene as being more middle-class is unfair, even if it might be overgeneral depending on the specific scene. the scene here is a lot more cynical, from what i understand, and reynolds rails against what he sees as over indulgence in regards to drugs here. whereas it is possible to romanticize the idea of a british proletariat learning to hug each other and making avant-garde records (and Reynolds admits to this romanticization... read the section of the interview on his original site where he quotes Pulp: "they burn so bright whilst you can only wonder why."), the american scene had no paradigm to marvel at. also, E + "reserved" brits /= E + Americans trained in consumerist hedonism (yes overgeneral again).

Garth's point about seperation between original detroit and chicago artists and rave scene is critical. very critical. additionally, paradigm in america is rock and rap, made by (seemingly preferably) poor hetero blacks. techno is middle class europhile black music originally, and chicago is black and gay. that is why even club music barely makes a dent, i think.

also, rave in europe connected to fall of communism happiness. rave does not have the same connection, or any connection here.

what is so sad about the american scene is the apoliticism. We need the political part here more than britain did. URB mentioned in the article a party that was held in the midwest. it was legal, permits were obtained, and then the police decided to bust in anyway.. they fined everyone in the venue fr being in the prescence of drugs. the cops held a gun to the djs head.

(I am way tired... sorry if I am incoherent or meaningless!)

How far behind? Keep up, guys.....

!!!

are you including britain in this conception of europe aaron, or treating europe as separate entity? if the former, this doesnt make sense. if the latter, well, youve just made me realise id like to know more about dance history in belgium, holland and germany

Do you honestly believe the people who went, and still go, clubbing week in week out 10 years ago went there for any political reason?

Of course not.

Stop over-analysing the whole scene - dance music and clubbing is one of the (thankfully) few genres that doesn't preach in any way... it's total hedonistic escapism and isn't moulded or affected by social concerns.

Why does there always seem to have to be a deep reason behind everything? It does seem to be a curious American trait that you can't enjoy things for enjoyments sake, you have to dissect things and look for imaginary inner meanings. Bullshit. Lighten up, have fun.

And move to Europe - where we have the proper clubs...err...'raves'.

(came back from a whistle stop toure of America a few months back... God, the club scene is DREADFUL. Miami and New York - shockingly far behind.

also, australia. im thinking australia fits the america model more. its certainly hardhouse oriented, and still seems to be based around warehouse parties out of the city?

"dance music and clubbing is one of the (thankfully) few genres that doesn't preach in any way... it's total hedonistic escapism and isn't moulded or affected by social concerns."
this is not true at all. many detroit techno artists were very concerned about social issues. you obviously don't have any of the many underground resistance records that contain diatribe etched into the vinyl. in chicago, there were plenty of records coming out that spoke about oppresion. the scene was gay, it was the 80s, can i make it any more obvious? also, darkcore, jungle and garage were moulded by social issues in london. drugs and the economy are social issues.

lastly, i hope you are joking when you say that americans are the only ones to overanalyze. you have obviously not been here long. there are threads on this board with hundreds of posts that concern t-shirts worn by rock stars. also, americans didn't invent deconstructionism or semiology ;-)

if ONLY that was the real lyric

you do realize that "raves" and "clubs" are not the same thing,yeah?

generally, when i think of something as dead in my own mind, i am describing that moment when a movement seems to have become a genre. Whenever a new music or idea comes out, it posesses a certain urgency, zeitgeist, etc. eventually, that feeling is lost. an exmaple of what i mean... to be into punk in 1977 probably felt much different than it does now. punk is now just a lifestyle option. that doesn't mean punk music is worthless, or that the excitement felt by a person just getting into the music in unimportant. i would also stress that dead=dead to me, and is not necessarily an objective statement about the music or scene as it exists outside of my perception. i am curious to see what others think.

Raves sounds so... kiddie.

Aaron - if you wish to connect dance music to any political statement, please look further back than the 80s.... the last truly political dance records were made in the 70s when disco was on the rise..... and there were some very early HINRG tracks from this time, and the early 80s, that dealt with issues like AIDs and opression - at the time, issues mainly affecting the gay communities who made things like disco popular.

I dispute your claims that the Detroit records were political - can you name any? If there are any, I'd be more than interested to know which ones.

I think 'darkcore' (eh?) is another Americanisation - doesn't exist here.

And jungle/d&b, ok, political - but not in the genre I'm addressing. And certainly not music that is played at 'raves' in the UK. Although some of the more commercial dance clubs now cater for this genre too. I hate it with a passion. Ugly music that simpky doesn't flow.

And really, only Americans could attempt to delve into the whys and wherefores of club culture. Really.

Ronan - err... keep up. Please?

it didnt really get called a name as such, but people referred to it just as dark, or darkness

boogie times tribe ~ the dark stranger is the archetypal tune, but many of the tail end rave tunes could be included. basically the records that typified the moodyness of many clubs at this time, and which helped precipitate the jungle/HH split

Sure the American scene is different from here, personally it seems crazy to me, but that does not mean it's shit, and to be honest I think it's increasingly clear.

Why does there always have to be a reason behind something

Er.....you may want to consider the answer to this one yourself, it's something to do with the fact that magic wands don't exist.

keep up

the effort is really killing me. The idea that there's something wrong with dissecting or analysing something you love is a nutso one, I'd prefer not to have to shut up about things I like.

also i think late 80s/early 90s dance music was just as political as at any other time. just been listening to the second Shut Up & Dance album which is full of bitter yet hopeful social comment, for example

92 - hardcore > 93 - darkcore, jungle techno > 94 jungle, intelligent drum n bass > 95/96 - techstep, whatever...

http://forums.di.fm/member.php?u=36583

Haven't read the thread, but the original post is probably the most pathetic thing I've ever read in my life.

http://www.geocities.com/franches30/plur2.JPG

that 1st post by alex in nyc , i knew it was him before i saw his name.

Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.
Ravers are in the most part very intellectual people for the most part.

A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".
A mate of mine went raving in the U.S. once. He said it was a fucking joke. He called American ravers "space monkeys".

Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...
Why can'y you guys accept us for us and not for the drugs...

http://diveintomark.org/public/2006/07/you-make-bunny-cry.jpg

americans aren't allowed to say 'rave', 'raving' or 'raver'. Same as we can't say 'howdy' or '2lb burger'

http://www.adolescent-substance-abuse.com/test-club-drugs.html

2. Another term for "raves" is:
Trances

waht

this was on most read threads earlier today!

Yeah, I put "Big Party" and it is!

Unless you know of any hypnotist that puts people into a rave.