Aaliyah's "One in a Million" vs. Guns N'Roses' "One in a Million"

ronan, I was not too young, and I did like gnr, but I AM embarassed by the critical revisionism and revivalism. (cue posts about oh I was always down with gnr, whatever, I don't want to argue about it.)

Aaliyah wins by default, even if it isn't her best.

No that's not just you Ronan, i was old enough to be taken in, but I wasn't. having to test endless copies of "GnR Lies" and the other piece of total ass they put out at the used rekkid store. "fat squawking fukcing losers" will do nicely, thank you, and not only was i amazed that anyone liked them the 1st time around, it amazes me that anyone still rates them. Aaliyah wins for me then, by a fukcing 1000 miles.

Oh please give me a fuckin' break.

"applauding it for 'having a moving reaction' just reminds me of the character in the Ghost World comic who claims 'to hate everyone equally' and makes friends with paedophiles."

Wyndham, you're skirting rather closely to calling me a racist, and I don't really appreciate it. My point was that the Guns' track is simply more interesting than Aaliyah's (a comparitivly conventional pop song) BECAUSE its so ugly/reprehensible/indefensible. Or are you of the school of thought that anything that deigns to say something that could be construed as patently offensive should be immediately stricken from consideration?

i think they key thing about the gnr song is the same with Eminem: would Axl be delivering the song to his audience expecting them to draw the above conclusion that 'oh its SOO obviously a postmodern fable with axl casting himself as a modern day rentboy and delivering gritty urban-noir vignettes of race-hate and fag-bashing with the sharp-witted insight of a modern Hubert Selby Jnr?' or was he expecting them to think 'HUH HUH Axl beats fags up too. COOL.'

um, lets remember we're not talking about Oscar Wilde here. this is a man who (allegedly, yes yes) beat his ex wife up, raped her and shot her full of smack.

sorry if it seems like i'm picking on people for defending this song. this kind of critical revisionism just gets on my nerves enormously.

I'm not. Believe me. Someone just pulled the race card on me ( Band T-shirt Etiquette ), so I know what it's like, but in any case, you drew the "Ghost World" parallel, not me.

By saying I prefer the GnR song over the Aaliyah song is not to suggest that I condone the message contained therein, but just that when the two songs are presented side by side, I will *ALWAYS* opt for the one that is more provocative over the one that is simply nice (and, subsequently, bland as dry toast). Does this mean that the Aaliyah track is a pile of spooge? Not at all. That wasn't the question. It's which do you prefer. I've stated my opinion.

"this is a man who (allegedly, yes yes) beat his ex wife up, raped her and shot her full of smack."

I'd heard that he beat her (Stephanie Seymore, Erin Everly, _____ [insert name here]) up, but that the other two allegations. Do tell if you have credible info to support the claim.

...In the end, I think Aaliyah's comes out slightly ahead. It's very close though.

GNR, who cares.

Aaliyah wins.

When the Aaliyah track came out, it seemed like US R&B, an incredibly popular yet seemingly closed (even moribund) system of production, had completely reinvented itself. The arrangement was totally unique, showcasing Timbaland's almost drum n bass approach to drum programming (although he denies having heard any dnb prior to recording this track). The eerie almost sci-fi sonics and slow bass with double time snare and hat fills directly influenced countless R&B and then hip-hop and pop releases. Aaliyah's later tracks are denser and more immediate, but "One In a Million" was quite a shot in the dark and made me reconsider R&B completely. I still think it's one of the 10 sexiest songs ever - actually it's just pure sex music of the highest order. It's also a kind of key to a clearer understanding of subsequent Timbaland productions.

this reasoning is just the equally bullshit inverse of the old "man you kids today with your green day and emo don't know what real punk is" reasoning...

Um...One in a Million by GNR is a hard one...on one hand, i still remember the (for lack of a better word) "icky" feeling i got when i first heard it...it is hateful and bitter and everything else everyone's accused it of being...

i also think it's a pretty great song...the melody is good and i like the downcast, defeated mood of the piece...axl sounds more sad for at least half the song than mad...the great fuzzed out guitar that creeps in at the end...it reminds me of some lost exile on main street track or something...axl at his best can make me feel things even though i know he's a coked up fuckhead...there's a vulnerability and confusion beneath the hate that - while it sure shouldn't let him off the hook cuz he's a dick let's face it and a pretty fucking hateful on this song - makes this songs compelling for me....

um, just out of curiosity, which Ted Nugent songs are you thinking of that "reek of defensive blind hate"?

"Stand" by Ted Nugent
I don't need John Kerry to wipe my ass
don't need Ted Kennedy to spill my glass
Al not-so-sharpton is a horse's ass
redistribution is a fuckin' laugh

i don't need nobody to hold my hand
don't need nobody, i can stand
make it on my own in a rock'n'roll band
kiss my fuckin' ass, i'm an american

ya say you're friends with michael moore
then you are friends with pimps and whores
the second amendment ain't about no sport
no right to self-defense in a kerry court

you don't think i'm taxed enuff?
well i'm ready to call your bluff
pimps and whores and welfare brats
too much government getting fat

A. Fuck you.
B. 'one in a million' changed american pop music -- excuse me, but BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Well, he's my favorite producer making Top 40 hits - I'm not sure by what other criteria you might judge changing pop music???

I'm not begrudging that. Good on ya. I'm taking exception to the claim that this Aaliyah track that he produced "changed American pop music".

Well, I've written quite a bit on this thread explaining how it did just that, but I'm happy to agree to disagree.

For a start, I didn't deny it completely -- I'm just laughing at the grandiosity of the statement. Perhaps said track did momentarily inspire a nudge towards a different type of production, but that's hardly re-invtention. And fuck you again, Cinniblount for comparing me to the Bush administration. Really. Fuck you.

perhaps alex could do us a favor and note which musicians have actually cured cancer or perhaps he could stop bleating about how twenty five year old halfassed boring new wave cock rock records are the endall and beall of human accomplishment and maybe pull his tineared head out of his ass.

Yawn. I love the band you're obviously alluding to, yes, but I never claim they changed the face of popular culture.

as it is more and more he's becoming one of the denser members and bigger assholes of the time-warner empire (not an easy accomplishment since he had to beat out tucker carlson for the honor)(but alex does again and again, with ease and glee). oh, and fuck you too.

Yawn again. My position at TIME magazine is hardly lofty enough to warrant such a title. You got a bigger axe to grind, Cinniblount? I get the feeling this isn't just about Aaliyah.

Well, I've written quite a bit on this thread explaining how it did just that, but I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Spence, I'm completely happy to do so as well.

bands

ps: for all i know, somebody already made all these points (if points they are). if so, i apologize. i only read the first few posts.

Whether it was Aaliyah or not doesn't matter (maybe a tiny bit) to me or the points I made later in the thread. Timbaland's groundbreaking production is the star here. I don't remember the GnR track, but I doubt I would think it as good or better.

"--" was OTM way up there, by the way. (I'd never thought of the boy prostitute stuff; it totally makes sense, and makes my donna summer comparison make even MORE sense.) axl truly was the rocket queen, man.

I did not mean to imply any hard time!

However, that record was extremely innovative, so much so that it elevates it to "great record" status for me. I think it's greatness is drawn into even sharper relief by the fact that Aaliyah had been doing really trad-R&B numbers to that point. I do in fact like Aaliyah's voice and find it's detatched lushness and lack of virtuosity very appealing.

I think people are responding more to Alex in NYC's persona than his actual comments on this thread....i mean he gave props to THREE Aliyah songs props that he liked better....

nobody complained when X did the same thing in "Los Angeles" since they were art-punks and I'm a dumbass metal dude and therefore unlike X and Randy Newman I must actually BE the character in the song, I couldn't possibly be CREATING the character, but then again that's what I WANTED you to think, why the fuck do you think I sang it in first person, do all of you people hate Eminem too?)

also, i've seen this point brought up in defence of (i think) david banner by sterling (or someone else sorry if i'm mistaken) and it was a good point then and a good point now.....although i'll certainly never claim to be able to read the mind or motivations of W Axl Rose.

read the 9/11 Commission report!

People could defend Axl by saying "hey sometimes I freak out and say stuff I don't really mean just to get people's goat too" but personally, I'm not sympathetic to that kind of lashing out. I'm more tolerant of wet blankets like Conor Oberst and Joel Madden.

The 'indistinctive' accusation holds even less water when she's compared to Ashanti, whose vocal range and power are much the same but who is very bland indeed.

i think i remember that devo/pistols stuff from back when he was still called w.axel; uzi suicide days. it's out there somewhere....

and yeah, cinniblount is right on -- the character in "one in a million" is clearly the same guy as in all those OTHER great early gnr songs about moving west young man. how do people not see that?
(and also right, "killing of georgie" runs all through that song.)

almost every r&b voice tim mentioned above hits me like a cold fish.

Artist Lyrics: X
Song Lyrics: Los Angeles

she had to leave los angeles all her toys wore out in black and her boys had too she started to hate every nigger and jew every mexican that gave her lotta shit every homosexual and the idle rich she had to get out she gets confused flying over the dateline her hands turn red cause the days change at night change in an instant the days change at night change in an instant she had to leave los angeles she found it hard to say goodbye to her own best friend she bought a clock on hollywood blvd the day she left it felt sad she had to get out

even Lina?!

chuck loving and being engaged by someone unafraid to "play" the asshole non-shockah

But I'm sort of wrong in saying Axl doesn't detach himself from his character; he sort of DOES; he's just less blatant about it than X were. He spends huge chunks of the song making excuses, setting up ethical escape hatches, for the character (or himself, or whoever), like I said. It's not like he doesn't CRITICIZE the guy in the song (assuming it's even just ONE GUY -- I mean, if it is, why would he complain about RACISTS? Do you really think that was an accident??):

Some say I'm crazy
I guess I'll always be
But it's been such a long time
Since I knew right from wrong
It's all the means to an end, I,
I keep on movin' along

Radicals and racists
Don't point your finger at me
I'm a small town white boy
Just tryin' to make ends meet
Don't need your religion
Don't watch that much TV
Just makin' my livin', baby,
Well that's enough for me

look, the song grabs me, it's dramatic, but I don't give the best actor Emmy to that Budd guy who blew his head off on live tv.

Have you forgotten "My World"?

wrong; see cinniblount post above.

GN'R's "One In A Million" is great; and the racism and homophobia and xenophobia are genuinely racist and homophobic and xenophobic, and his trapdoors and excuses are just copouts, and I don't notice any fictional distance, but more to the point (and unlike in "Criminal" and "Under My Thumb" and lots of others), there's not a lot that's interesting in this song about the way Axl's conflicted over sex roles and race, though I suppose it'd probably be interesting in his life, if you knew him...

So, why is it a great song? Because the melody is totally gorgeous, it's a quiet song that kicks, and it's totally heartbreaking, "Like A Rolling Stone" turned from victory into a lament, a trip from nowhere to nowhere, an escape into a trap: he rides his greyhound into loneliness and confusion, gets police cuffs on his wrists for his trouble, people speak in unknown tongues and have strange sex, and as he reaches for his one-in-a-million woman she fades out on drugs. I'm afraid I'm making it sound maudlin, but the scratch and ache in his voice balance out perfectly, and the voice never stops reaching no matter how despairing the words. And despite itself the song does give some insight into the man's bigotry. Despite the anti-immigrant stuff, Axl's the immigrant from small-town pain-and-shitboy Indiana to the promise of urban freedom, urban Babylon, which turns out to be a new prison, and he doesn't even know the language! So its his fear and disappointment speaking. And no way does this make the bigotry any less bigoted, and I don't find the bigotry challenging to me in any way that I care about, but I do feel for the man in the predicament, expressing himself so well and thinking so poorly.

That's `cos the latter is more memorable.

Timbaland was part of a stream of similar doings coming up from down south, whereas when James Brown laid down "Papa," it was a sharp break from everything, from his own "Out of Sight," from various "Funky Broadways," he'd simply twisted the screw about 20 turns tighter.

(Thanks for the kind words [I really appreciate them (really really really)].)

"You give me a really good feeling, all day long." And that little part in the bridge where she does that descending "anything you want, anything you need, anything you so desire," and then her voice sorta plays around and timbaland drops this little guitar pattern in the background....

I'm not a great writer so I can't really adequetly get across what I love about this but I do know that this song moves me to a degree that makes most other tracks pale in comparison.

I'm not going to criticze the GnR song for whatever lack of values it has other than to say that it simply does not move me to this degree.

beauty is relative.

It should go without saying that I was posting my PERSONAL feelings on the song and no I DONT believe that you have to agree with me about it but TO ME it is more evocative and beautiful and I would cry if I had to live in Alex in NYC's hellish musical existence. IMO.

OK, well, when I was starting to listen to Timbaland, he didn't jump out at me as that new, but actually I don't normally listen with the precision that a lot of you guys do (which is interesting, given what I do for a living [for a "living" - ed.]), generally just hear overall feel, and then listen for specific beats and stuff if someone draws them to my attention, or I'm supposed to review something but can't think of anything else to talk about, or I wonder how the song achieves its feel). The thing is, though I love Timbaland, I just feel he's an important member in the pack rather than the one and only leader of the pack. There's just so much Miami bass and freestyle and dancehall and house that was doing similar moves earlier. Why are "One In a Million" and related Timbo songs more innovative than "When I Hear Music" and "Swept Away" (to go way back) and "Cars With the Boom" and "C'Mon N' Ride It"?

By the way, I'm sure it is an important song, just think we need to hear it in the context of a lot of reggae and bounce and Miami bass and Dirty South and the whole stream of '80s and '90s club music, etc.

Frere-Jones said in the Voice that drum 'n' bass is a "red herring" in regard to Timbo, specifically citing such other sources - though there's no reason that d'n'b couldn't have had an effect.

By the way, what struck me first about "The Rain (Supa Dupa Fly)" when I first heard that one was that the bass line was close to Big Youth's "Jim Screechy," which was approx. 1975. That whole album is deeply reggae.

The feeling's mutual, although i don't take this as an insult (and nor should you). One person's treasure is another's crap.

It certainly wasn't created in a vacuum. I guess my feelings at the time were that those tracks you mention, coming out of freestyle and Miami bass etc, were in a kind of Latin "Dance" Ghetto of urban music. "One In a Million" seemed to be the first time I heard what I considered to be staid, almost 'classical' Black R&B really embrace futuristic, sci-fi production. Subsequent Timbaland tracks like "Pony" and "The Rain" etc, would have been very out of place on American urban radio in 1995. I'm not ignoring all the other releases at the time - I was listening to dance music almost exclusively at the time, but when I heard "One In a Million" on L.A. and S.F. urban stations, and saw it on The Box in Oakland, I really felt very strongly that it was something very different. It's really held up for me too as something more than just innovation.

"almost every r&b voice tim mentioned above hits me like a cold fish."

Chuck do you basically dislike the sound of modern female R&B singers? That's not an accusation BTW, it's just that my list wasn't so much what I considered to be the "cream of the crop" but rather a representative selection of different vocal styles within that genre, so if you dislike all (or almost all) of them I'm not sure what you *would* like (by all means provide examples to disprove me if you want). It also makes it difficult for me to know what Aaliyah is doing "wrong" from your perspective.

This is probably a distinct possibility. I don't know that I can put my finger on why this is -- I want to say the singers you mention (the ones I know, anyway == there are some I've never heard) strike me as over-controlled and constricted and completely held back (and way way way *genteel and respectable and polite* maybe?) even when they veer toward melisma, but I don't know if that does the problem justice. And I'm not sure where female r&b singing went *wrong* for me, either. It's not something I've given much thought too, actually, and it's actually a really good question, Tim. I loved lots of singers acting in the tradition of disco and earlier r&b; I'm a huge fan of Diana Ross, Donna Summer, Teena Marie, Laura Branigan, Taylor Dayne, Shakira, and so on. I loved the singing in Latin freesyle. Hated diva-oriented house music, though there were exceptions. Liked Mariah Carey a lot, earlier on (after hating her earlier on, before I broke the breaking-glass code or something); thought she got worse later. Liked Whitney's "I Will Always Love You" fine; could probably enjoy a greatest hits record by her. Never had much use for Mary J Blige, give or take a song or two I can't remember the names of right now. Ditto Chaka Kahn, though she could be do great disco (as in "Hot Butterfly.") Liked "Genie in a Bottle," haven't liked Christina Aguilerra since; thought "Beautiful" was a dead bore. Loved "Superwoman" by Karyn White. Liked "Another Sad Love Song" and "Unbreak My Heart" by Toni Braxton. Ignored Anita Baker. I've liked some Destiny's Child and Beyonce songs okay here and there, but she has never once blown me away - that girl REALLY seems cold. (She LOOKS cold, too.) In the past few years, in fact, I'd say that COUNTRY women (Joe Dee Messina, Faith Hill, Leann Rimes, Chely Wright, etc) do r&b better than r&b people do! (And maybe "pop" people like Britny do, too, actually.) So I'm not sure *what* it is. What does the stuff I like *have* the stuff I don't like *lacks*? (I want to say *hooks*, of the bubblicious kind maybe, but that's too easy, probably.) If anybody has any theories, definitely let me know.

(wow!, xpost)

xpost

albums
Yolanda Perez *Aqui Me Tienes*
Skye Sweetnam *Noise From the Basement*
Gretchen Wilson *Here For The Party*

singles not on those albums
Terri Clark "Girls Lie Too"
Crystal Gayle "Midnight in the Desert"
Martina McBride "This One's for the Girls,"
MIA "Galang"
Yolanda Perez con Don Cheto "Estoy Enamorada"
Phat Sk8trax "Boogie Back Rap"
Ric-A-Che featuring Darija "Coo Coo Chee" (for Darija's backup mostly)
Britney Spears "Toxic"

And I also really enjoy the Ashlee Simpson album, oddly enough (among many other things, I'm sure.)

This idea is kinda boringly similar to the one I had about "purist" DJ sets, and both focus on subtleties and nuances eg. the slight flecks of uncontrolled rawness that creep through in Teedra Moses's vocals. I guess I just tend to like dialectics in music - or tend to frame what I like in terms of dialectics anyway.

By contrast all of the vocalists whom you mention that I know of are indisputably original, one-of-a-kind, not interchangeable etc. Although country is an interesting case because it imposes its own stylistic restrictions and "best practice" standards on female vocalists - I guess though that said restrictions are simultaneously more *obvious* but less *fundamental* than those in R&B, such that once you get inside the genre the differences between vocalists are much more clear-cut.

More succinctly, yes.

"I mean also, in general (and this applies to indie rock and trip-hop and artsy post-Kate-Bush/Tori Amos singer-songwriter swill even more than recent r&b, I'm sure == not saying it applies to EVERY singer you named, either), i am not a fan of *small* voices."

Chuck you would like Teedra Moses!

Never mind the fact that his music does something entirely different to me than I get from miami bass which I do love as well.

This might make sense, except a big part of Axl's appeal is that he sings like a SEXY GIRL. (Like Janis Joplin, when you get down to it.) And his band's music (then) would be sexy even if he kept his mouth shut.

Aaliyah = proof that Dionne won over Aretha, innit?

xpost

Formally I think Beyonce's ballads are much closer to Dionne than Aaliyah is (exceptions for something like "Never No More" which is maybe Aaliyah's most camp moment give or take "I Refuse"), except that I think Beyonce ends up in an entirely different place for reasons I can't quite pinpoint - many might say her "coldness", but the whole "shark eyes" meme re Beyonce was one I always felt was a bit too easy and point-missing somehow.

dear god!

Oh no he doesn't. If he sounds like anything, it's a shrieking, scaley sea harpee, not a sexy girl. Conversely, Aaliyah both sounded like and verily was a sexy girl.

There's a certain irony to this conclusion of course.

Chuck what did you think of Blu Cantrell? She strikes me as one of the more theoretically gay-friendly R&B singers.

haha lil kim on hardcore of course, with the poster track! except thats a verbal and not vocal thing. what's the vocal equiv?

contrast to the ballad type chuck goes for, inserting or spreading across the listeners' frame.

(sorry, been studying like mad and reading zizek for diversion)

except maybe the christina milan single is different and new, and it follows beatwise and themewise the aaliyah's "rock the boat" and yeah we can even say as timbo's work with aaliyah progressed he played with that discourse, most inward-turned hitting a sort of "is it about me or you" moment with try again, then reaching dialogic peak with "we need a resolution" then busting out again with "rock the boat" (not to mention erica kane which really should inspire some followups too i think).

omg -- "i am music" is totally that joissance objet a spreading across the listner's frame! not to mention sinkah's reading of the club-destruction scene in queen of the damned.

oh, wait, you said less lacan.

i'm curious what you mean by a "relationship of desire" as opposed to a "relationship of identity". although the two songs you list sorta give that idea.

house vocals yeah, 80s r&b they're much more major-key, open throat, ballads, statements of being. recentish canonical example -- "that's the way it has to be".

where ARE the good new female r&b things anyway, milan aside?

"i'm curious what you mean by a "relationship of desire" as opposed to a "relationship of identity". although the two songs you list sorta give that idea."

Sterling I mean that more and more in R&B we (males) are encouraged to identify with the "you" rather than the "I" in the song. With traditional diva house (paradigmatic example being "Somebody Else's Guy") the song is not addressed to the listener but to a third party because the singer and the listener are the same person - you did me wrong but I will get over you ("Anyone Who Had A Heart" works the same way I think, though the message differs slightly).

Whereas with modern R&B the singer is the object of desire as you say; we're not supposed to identify with her too closely because the entire way the objet petit a functions is that it's an essentially blank screen upon which to project desire. I think you're right though that the better R&B has a more complex relationship with this process than just that (cf. the last Ja Rule/Ashanti collab-o, where Ashanti's blank recitation of "I love it when you thug me baby" demonstrated rather off-puttingly just how instrumentalised the female siren is in Murder Inc's conception of things); a playing with the listener/singer object/subject breakdown. Doesn't Lacan say that you get a glimpse of the real when you realise you're being observed (and objectified) by your object of desire?

Re new R&B apart from Christina (which is great) - I've been mentioning the Teedra Moses album rather hysterically in every second post. Sterling you would love it. Not sure what else... Have you heard much of the unreleased Kylie Dean album?

One of the things I find interesting is that the R&B artists I especially connect with are those who at times thoroughly typify Sterling's Lacanian model but at other times go out of their way to contradict or complicate it (and I don't mean by merely busting out a post-"No Scrubs" battle of the sexes track, although that can be part of it).

Like, Mya can come across as astonishingly sexually inviting ("Free" especially, but also some of her slow jams) but so much of the time she also has this (deliberately constructed) neurotic love-hate thing going on, which can take the form of fear of betrayal, or destructive possessiveness or etc. I can't think of an R&B artist who has delved more into the violence and darkness of sexual desire, and her "little girl" vocal is an incredibly important component in this, the way her high notes throb (ache) in a way that is quite ambivalent (see: both versions of "The Best Of Me", "That's Why I Wanna Fight", "Hurry Up", "Taste This" and especially "Why You Gotta Look So Good").

Teedra and Tweet are two examples of artists who blur that binary too - both at times very ethereal and plushly post-coital (did I steal that from Tom?) but also really full-bodied and very womanly. I'd be very interested to hear Chuck's reactions to their albums.

i should've known "sexy" would've been something of a wildcard in the hands of chuck.

sorry.

(2) Modern r&b the singer isn't so much singing the song as singing within a track. This is a development that I find really interesting (and of course it's not just in r&b/hip-hop, it's in goth, it's in dancehall, it's in techno), and obviously it'll work better for some singers than for others. Mariah helped pioneer it but I wish she hadn't, since she was better before. And by and large it bores me with r&b singers, though it doesn't bore me with the rappers. It also might not bore me if Axl put into r&b tracks and tried this! As long as he promised to sing in the upper register.

I don't know if my response will clarify anything. Examples would be early Mariah vs. late Mariah ("Make It Happen" vs. Mariah f. Busta, Busta f. Mariah, ad infinitum). Early she's doing a trapeze act in relation to the putative melody, later she's playing hide-and-seek in the scenery. Or early TLC's playground shouts on "Ain't Too Proud to Beg" vs. later TLC's copying of Mariah's dancing around the decor. Maybe the difference is melisma that plays the whole field vs. melisma that hangs around with the low-pitched grunts.

My description is not very precise, is it? I can't be more specific, since obviously it's a feeling I have about the way Mariah and all relate to their accompaniment. Although Mariah was way better doing the trapeze act, this isn't to say that Aaliyah would have been.

"[It's] disgusting because it's heartfelt and disgusting again because it's a grandstand play."

Are you referring to the sort of pretty fluffy inconsequentiality of Mariah's vocals on later records? I'm thinking of the "Funkin' For Jamaica" rip she did with Mystikal where it's like she's doing awesome back-up vocals on her own song but no lead vocals - I kinda like this effect but yeah I agree that early Mariah beats it rather comprehensively.

I can see the dichotomy there but I'm just not certain how firm it is. Like, yeah, there's less ostentatiousness or radicalism to Aaliyah's vocals on the whole, but then there's something like "I Refuse" which is pretty melomelismatic. Would old-Mariah have made it even bigger? Undoubtedly, but then old-Mariah's a bit of a special case.

My boyfriend was startled by Beyonce's performance of Andrew Lloyd Webber at the Oscars the other night: "she can really sing!" he exclaimed. I was tempted to scoff a bit, like, "duh, have you listened to 'Baby Boy'? Of course she can sing!" But I guess there are different types of vocals being used in these situations. "Baby Boy" strikes me as fantastically sung (much more so, or more obviously so, than "Crazy in Love") but I imagine it would accord with your idea of singing within a track, and it's kinda fitting that she duets with Sean Paul on it. For dancehall Sean Paul strikes me as a paradigmatic example of a deejay/singjay singing within the track (cf. Sizzla most of the time) and I think it's one of the key aspects of his talent, of why he's so good. There's a sort of creative on-point-ness there: like, damn, how did he come up with a way to sound so smooth over this crazy track? So blended in? So assimilated? These all sound like criticisms but for me (at least in relation to Sean) they're totally compliments.

"And surely it's possible to desire someone and identify with her or him as well, and to desire/identify with many aspects (e.g., desire/identify with Skye the tease, Skye the controller, Skye the attractive mastermind singer-songwriter who's creating the dynamic and is/is not in control of it, won't or will want you to play with it too)."

Yeah this is right, and I wouldn't like to give the impression that it's an either/or situation. But I do think there's been a general shift away from identification (at least for the male listener - hence the girl power veneer that was particularly strong at the end of the nineties) in commercial R&B - contrast/compare the over-emphasis on identification for nu-soul singers: standard-bearers of the young modern black woman's struggle, pimped out with so many noble signifiers that desirability is obscured. And this isn't a watertight process; the stylistic choices made which shore up this division cannot prevent a counter-action which impels us to identify with the object of desire or desire the object of identification. I imagine that the most interesting performers in either field are those who mix up these competing forms of appreciation - which leads me to my inevitable question Frank, what do you think of Teedra?

I haven't heard any Skye Sweetnam! Where should I start?

No, you're not dense; "track" vs. "song" can be an elusive thing (and those aren't the only two choices, by any means). In fact, the '60s Anglo-American pop that I was weaned on may have been something of an exception in world history, in that it tended towards the extreme of "song outfront" (though James Brown was there blowing holes in the song hegemony). Beyonce has always had the tension between song and arrangement, which in her case derives from the tensions in jazz between individual soloist and group improvisation, melody and fucking-around-with-melody, etc.

As for Skye, she's only got one album, Noise from the Basement. Best songs are "Hypocrite," "Tangled Up In Me," "Shot to Pieces," "I Don't Really Like You" ("Your friends are dense/They don't make any sense"), and "Heart of Glass" (!). "Tangled" is a single that got Radio Disney play and is probably streamed all over the place; the followup "Number One" isn't bad, though not as good as the ones above. A bit more power pop (i.e., Ramonesy) than are the other girlpoppers, but not unrelated to Ashlee and Avril (who are both good), and not necessarily better than Ashlee, who's very good for two fo the three songs I've heard of hers, and whose "Pieces of Me" runs close to "Tangled Up in Me" in that they're each about a girl's prerogative to be complicated and contradictory and about the right (or desire) to be appreciated for it. One thing I like about Skye, though, is the sense of persona construction as a game that the listener can play along with. "Hypocrite" takes off on Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues," but creates its whap-whap-whap word overload almost entirely out of negative things people have said about her public image: "Candy floss, antipop/Star search, lollipop/Manufactured skate punk/Wanna be, never was/Nerd, geek, super freak/I'm a movie of the week/Daddy's girl, teacher's pet/Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!" I enjoy the sense of a brain at play behind the recordings. Deserves a thread of her own one of these days.

Speaking of which, GN'R broke big in '88 on the basis of "Sweet Child O' Mine," which I'm sure was selling big to the girls.

I teenpop performer only in my dreams.

She already has one!:

Skye Sweetnam Is The Worst Thing To Happen To Music In 2004

>"Candy floss, antipop/Star search, lollipop/Manufactured skate punk/Wanna be, never was/Nerd, geek, super freak/I'm a movie of the week/Daddy's girl, teacher's pet/Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!"<

You left out "Avril lite"!

http://www.myspace.com/skyesweetnam

I love "Crazy in Love" too, I just like Beyonce's vocals in "Baby Boy" more.

"Hypocrite" sounds great! Although I have to get over a habitual unconscious reticence to investigate this sort of rocky teen-pop (not born of any active dislike or distrust but more that I keep forgetting to allocate it to the "active like and trust" part of my brain). I decided like a year ago that I loved Hillary Duff and I still have yet to investigate her beyond the singles. WTF? Maybe I'm concerned that once I'm an unabashed Hillary fan I won't be able to like Ashley or Lindsay (or Skye I guess) out of some sense of fanboyish loyalty.

Hilary's voice is not much, but her material is usually excellent. Ashlee (on the three songs I've heard of hers) is a different style, going for a "bruised" sound, sort of 2nd-album Pink but more fun (and the Pink wasn't altogether unfun). Lindsay's a subject for further research. Kelly may be the most intriguing of the bunch, because she hasn't figured out yet what her sound is, and you can imagine her doing either Stevie Nicks or Whitney Houston with equal facility, though on the charts at the moment she's coming on like Flashdance '80s faux-disco DOR (which is high praise from me).

Back sort of to our topic:

Jo Jo's "Leave (Get Out)" is the perfect balance between song r&b and track r&b, and I love it; the riff prompts the singer and the singer prompts the riffs. And she's all over Radio Disney. I'm trying to figure out why I didn't vote for it in Pazz & Jop. I don't yet have a strong feeling for Jo Jo's voice or personality, however. Need to hunt down her other material.

Oh please. No you don't. Cheese whiz is cheese whiz. Are you expecting to discover her Trout Mask Replica or something?

Like "Leave" more than anything by Captain Beefheart, not that they're exactly comparable.

AXLogic - still keeping me awake at nights seventeen years later.

I think most of the people in this thread acknowledge that the GnR song RAWKS, they have other problems with it.

Try reading the thread.

Surely you mean WAS.

well well well. i think if you're going to get into 'greatest artists ever' territory, you have revoked all anti-rockist credentials. which allows *some* consideration of the guys behind the mixing desk, no?

As far as Ciara being the new Aaliyah, she's certainly stolen Aaliyah's aesthetic, which doesn't impress me much. I'd sooner look towards Rihanna, who at least has an interesting voice.

Also, and this should always go without saying from the getgo: ROCK WILL ALWAYS BEAT R'n'B, BECAUSE NINE-TENTHS OF CONTEMPORARY R'n'B IS ABSOLUTE SHIT!

You know I'm right.

so I'm sad I missed this, don't know much about the GNR song (though I really like old GNR, Appetite is ace)...but I agree with Alex in NYC on the Aaliyah song, as that song came out during the last time I listened to r&b radio a lot (since I had no cd player in my car and drove 90 minutes a day)

I haven't heard Aaliyah's but it cannot possibly be worse than Guns'n'Roses.

Bosson and Modern Talking have also recorded absolutely godawful songs called "One In a Million". Must be something about that title...

sure it can be possibly worse. for the record it's an average song, but rock 'n roll isn't 'evil'.

Cripes, here's a thread that didn't need reviving. Again -- I liked Aaliyah -- honest, I did -- but "One in a Million" was just yawnsome piffle.

Does it matter to anybody here that Aaliyah was a completely generic zero-personality singer who could have been replaced by hundreds of other people

... so wrong

Everyone needs to listen to the acapella of "One In a Million." I love the track--it's one of my all-time favorites, actually--but it's easy to ignore her breathtaking, soulful performance when it's mixed so low.

I created a remix with the acapella that I prefer...not because my beat compares to Timbaland's but because I love Aaliyah's vocal so much.

It is possible the Aaliyah one was shit, but the GnR one was unbearable. I mean, musically, they always sucked back then, but that particular song combined the usual musical suckiness with some truly scary lyrics in addition.

goddammit the song I was thinking of was More Than a Woman. no wonder I was confused

Maybe artists should just leave the title alone. "One in a Million" is arguably the worst song on PSB's Very.

Your makin me laughabout the sillest stuff
Said that I'm your diamond in the rough
When I'm mad at you
you pull out your velvet glove

Hannah Montana, "One In A Million"

The male duet partner's vocals on Aaliyah's "Never Givin' Up" on her One in a Million album is the most tortured/torturous singing I've ever heard.

Actually, One in a Million kind of sucks way more than it has in right to, in a "the Dianne Warren ballad isn't the low point of this" way.

"...has any right to..."

at thxgiving on thursday i had to sit through a play-by-play account of a recent hannah montana concert. not by the 11 or 6 year olds that went, but the mother who i think enjoyed it more.

more than a woman beats all these aaliyah songs

thanks/

more than a woman beats all these aaliyah songs

-- Frogman Henry, Saturday, November 24, 2007 10:50 PM (Saturday, November 24, 2007 10:50 PM) Bookmark Link

False.

iron chef america episode on right now> both these songs

SECRET INGREDIENT IS "THANKSGIVING"

"THANKSGIVING" is over. It is Christmas now. Getwitit.

iron chef's operate on their own calendar.

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/statusainthood/archives/images/freeway.jpg
= UUURRRLY!

http://nylon.net/ironchef/icbanner.jpg
= LATE

"I wasn't trying to imply that you liked Dionne because she is camp, Chuck, just that I see Dionne's campness as a major point of distinction between her and most millenial R&B - cf. Whitney who was always very camp, or something like Toni Braxton's "Unbreak My Heart' - a huge gay club hit of course. In fact it would be interesting to see someone write about how, despite some exceptions, the last fifteen years have seen R&B inexorably move away from gay male appreciation."

I said this three years ago. It would seem that things have perhaps begun to swing the other way, what with Rihanna's last album and now Beyonce working with the Freemasons. If the swing really is on, it'd be interesting to speculate why.

people who like the GNR vsn more than aaliyahs vsn are fucking kidding right

there are maybe three or four songs in the entire universe better than the aaliyah track

people who like the GNR vsn more than aaliyahs vsn are fucking kidding right

No, actually we're not. And you need to lay off that bong, son.

the new rockism has access to way more potent steroids than the old one

New Rockists would prefer Timbaland to Guns N Roses, though.

jigga > aaliyah > gnr

Romantics - One In A Million : .

Something about you
Makes me wanna keep on loving you
When I'm without you
I feel I need you back in my arms
I get a sensation
I feel whenever I'm around you
You're my inspiration
And I'm so glad I found you

CHORUS
One in a million-baby you're the one
One in a million-and you're second to none
One in a million-a million to one
You're one in a million

When I first saw you
I had a feeling right from the start
In love I was falling
You seemed to do things to my heart
Your love and affection
Is all I need to keep me satisfied
You leave an impression
Baby I never wanna leave you

jigga > aaliyah > gnr

pizza > fried egg sandwich > jigga > gnr > aaliyah

T U B E S - L Y R I C S

She's A Beauty
Foster/Lukather/Waybill

Step right up and don't be shy,
because you will not believe your eyes.
She's right here behind the glass
and you're gonna like her,
'cause she's got class.
You can look inside another world.
You get to talk to a pretty girl.
She's everything you dream about...
but don't fall in love...
She's a beauty ---
one in a million girls,
she's a beauty.
Why would I lie?
Why would I lie?
You can say anything you like,
but you can't touch the merchandise.
She'll give you every pennies worth,
but it will cost you a dollar first.
You can step outside your little world.
You can talk to a pretty girl.
She's everything you dream about...
but don't fall in love...
She's a beauty ---
one in a million girls,
she's a beauty.
Why would I lie?
Why would I lie?

pizza > pete rock & cl smooth > fried egg sandwich > aaliyah >>>>>>>>> gnr

bringing food into music debates isnt fair to music

iron chef america episode on right now> both these songs

-- J0rdan S., Sunday, 25 November 2007 07:00 (3 months ago) Link

the secret ingredient was "thanksgiving"

Pizza>>>>>>cupcakes>>>>>>cinnamon toast>>>>>>>getting felched by a crack-addled wino>>>>>>Aaliyah's "One In A Million"

I kid, I kid...... cupcakes are way better than pizza.

more like borex in nyboring amirite

I kid, I kid...... cupcakes are way better than pizza.

-- Alex in NYC, Saturday, March 15, 2008 1:24 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

real talk, the rongest thing said in this thread

Nothing's worse than bad pizza, and in NYC in 2008, it's everywhere.

I can count reputable Manhattan pizza parlors on one hand.

alex the rest of the world doesnt have an overabundance of wack pizza nor does it have those gourmet cupcakes you dorks make snl skits about either

Yeah, I can't even begin to apologize enough for the Magnolia bakery. Single-handedly destroyed NYC's otherwise respectable reputation.

cupcakes are way better than pizza.

You are DEAD to me.

But yeah

Pizza everywhere else on the planet >>>>> Manhattan pizza, easy

Sbarro is Times Square back in the day was OK.

Pizza everywhere else on the planet >>>>> Manhattan pizza, easy

Well, yeah, that was kinda my point. It's not that I'm all that fired up about cupcakes (although who doesn't love a good cupcake?), it's just that Pizza in Manhattan has reached a new low.

pizzaz in manhattan has reached a new low

What about "One in a Million" by Pet Shop Boys? Not their best tune or anything, but surely better than anything by Guns and Roses.

Ah, the legendary Pet Shop Boys-Axl connection.

Pizza in NYC

manhattan pizza still better than fucking los angeles "pizza" if you can even call it that

all these things still worse than "one in a million" except for cupckaes

hmmmm, didn't really know either song (except by reputation), just checked youtube, gotta go with gnr. also, youtube lolz

a fucking faggot tried to rape axl when he was staying at his apartment, because he was homeless at that time, so i think i know why such lyrics

This this case Pet Shop Boys > Aaliyah > Modern Talking >>>>> GnR

"It is possible the Aaliyah one was shit, but the GnR one was unbearable. I mean, musically, they always sucked back then, but that particular song combined the usual musical suckiness with some truly scary lyrics in addition."

SCARY LYRICS.

They're not so much "truly scary" as "truly stupid."

I would like to hear Randy Newman cover the GnR song.

I'd rather hear GN'R cover "Short People."

i'd rather hear the lex ask "who's randy newman?"

I'd rather hear GN'R cover "Short People.Simon Smith and his Amazing Dancing Bear"

You know Randy would sing "Immigrants and faggots" with relish on top of some barrelhouse piano.

"They're not so much "truly scary" as "truly stupid.""

There are ignorant and racist lyrics in there, but not really any stupid ones. It's a strong song lyrically.

I wonder if this "truly scary" thing means that Geir doesn't like "Midnight Rambler."

ok any nyc person complaining about pizza has to come live here for a year. you'll be begging for famous original polysexual ray's or whatever you're calling it.

famous original polysexual ray's

Bahahahahahahaahaha

CONFESSION

aaliyah version is the only song to ever make me cry

^^^real talk

well, except i cry all the time, but this one, too

How is this "taking sides" thing even a question here?

Aaliyah, obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IXw84xM4Mc

The male duet partner's vocals on Aaliyah's "Never Givin' Up" on her One in a Million album is the most tortured/torturous singing I've ever heard.

― The Reverend, Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:30 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this guy's name is 'Tavarius Polk,' btw

So it just finally occurred to me that one of the big ironies of "One In A Million" is that Axl is sort of an immigrant himself in the lyrics -- an outsider who just got off the boat (well, Greyhound bus) in a bizarre new land. Not sure whether anybody's pointed that out before. Also not sure why it took me 22 whole years to notice.

The order and structure of the lyrics to Guns and Roses's "One in a Million" cleared up any confusion I had about the level of confusion the narrator was experiencing, and struck me as the most intelligent part of the song.

Police matches up with gold chains for sale,
Niggers matches up with bracelets behind back. Out of order.

Immigrants and Faggots lyrics match up, but singer seems to jumble his anger and who he's angry with like a schizophrenic street rant. There isn't any difference between speaking different languages and fucking, It's all wrong and different. "It's all Greek to me" clever gay joke? , or not very clever gay joke.

I was a confused teenager when this came out, and it fit right in with Jane's Addiction and Public Enemy and the early grunge and old punk I was listening to at the time. It also spoke to me. I was tired of being hassled to buy jewelry in front of the 7-11, and the cops, and gay guys coming on to me more often than straight women, and the dudes behind the counter not checking my ID until I questioned the price. Get off my back.

I've been listening to the Aaliyah track for the first time as I've typed this, and don't have much to say. I'll have to give it a chance on a better stereo than my computer. I like the deep R&B feel of it as compared to more expansive pop oriented songs it may have influenced that I've heard since.

GNR song is all, like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Za2k5wA3sk

The male duet partner's vocals on Aaliyah's "Never Givin' Up" on her One in a Million album is the most tortured/torturous singing I've ever heard.

― The Reverend, Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:30 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this guy's name is 'Tavarius Polk,' btw

― some dude, Saturday, August 29, 2009 6:55 AM Bookmark

lol

I just listened to GNR's "One in a Million" and it's kind of amazing how fully and perfectly it paints the mental landscape of a typical Trump voter.

I think there's still a few GNR threads you haven't revived, what's the holdup

16 years, and i still don't get this board. there's a weird, bubbling hostility beneath 75% of posts

I wasn't trying to imply that you liked Dionne because she is camp, Chuck, just that I see Dionne's campness as a major point of distinction between her and most millenial R&B - cf. Whitney who was always very camp, or something like Toni Braxton's "Unbreak My Heart' - a huge gay club hit of course. In fact it would be interesting to see someone write about how, despite some exceptions, the last fifteen years have seen R&B inexorably move away from gay male appreciation.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 22 October 2004 00:18 (11 years ago) Permalink

(three years pass)

"I wasn't trying to imply that you liked Dionne because she is camp, Chuck, just that I see Dionne's campness as a major point of distinction between her and most millenial R&B - cf. Whitney who was always very camp, or something like Toni Braxton's "Unbreak My Heart' - a huge gay club hit of course. In fact it would be interesting to see someone write about how, despite some exceptions, the last fifteen years have seen R&B inexorably move away from gay male appreciation."

I said this three years ago. It would seem that things have perhaps begun to swing the other way, what with Rihanna's last album and now Beyonce working with the Freemasons. If the swing really is on, it'd be interesting to speculate why.

― Tim F, Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:36 AM (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(nine years pass)

I was amused to read the above posts today, given that mainstream R&B has probably never been so plugged into gay male appreciation (sonically and culturally) as in the last few years.

16 years, and i still don't get this board. there's a weird, bubbling hostility beneath 75% of posts

in my case it's just weird bubbling hostility to GNR, an awful band composed of awful people

You know Randy would sing "Immigrants and faggots" with relish on top of some barrelhouse piano.

Would be a good year for this cover.

The MAW Main Mix of More Than a Woman is 1am jazz-funk perfection