What's wrong with prog-rock?/ Prog-rock S/D

Yes - "The Yes album"
Genesis - "Nursery Cryme" and "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway"
King Crimson "In The COurt of the Crimson King", "Red", "Starless & Bible Black"
Van Der Graaf Generator - "Pawn Hearts"
Soft Machine - "THird"

Personally I would avoid ELP, Camel and barclay James Harvest as if they carried some awful disease unless you find a copy of ELP's "Trilogy" for like $2 and ONLY listen to "The Endless Enigma

If you don't like any of these you can safely assume that prog rock is not for you. I would probably avoid any prog mailing lists if you do like some of the above, b/c they all seem a bit cliquey in my experience. You would be much better off asking questions abt it here. I have no idea why prog has been demonised for so long. Probably laziness/force of habit I think. Prog rekkids from the '70's at least are no more overproduced than any other contemporary music. Certainly Genesis "Nursery Cryme" sounds like it was recorded VerY cheaply. BTW, VERY few, if any of the '70's progressive musicians were hippies at all if that's an issue. I think most of the actual hippies made country-rock or singer-songwriter type rekkids, tho' I'm quite probably wrong.

For my money, all you really need is .....
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc800/c828/c82808cmax0.jpg

http://www.anglagard.net/

Their album "Epilog" is I think the best album ever made.

Plus, if U like Magazine, prog should hold no ph33r for you, and according to an interview in a recent "Wire" Keith Levene used to roadie for YES (!) and Steve Howe was a big influence on his playing style (!!!)

A lot to do with entrenched punk and post-punk orthodoxy. It's not unusual to hear the same criticisms of prog that were trotted out 25 years ago.

As for it being over-produced I'd say it was more over-played and actually under-produced. I listened to 'Selling England By The Pound' not so long ago and was shocked at how muddy and clogged it sounded (and not because it was recorded in the early '70s because I like the way a lot of things from that period sound). I think I like the idea of prog more than the way it actually sounds.

Oh and one other pretty good band. (Hint: I'm not talking about Glass Hammer)

so many of the things on this show have been just utterly wonderful. i found myself watching practically the entire king crimson segment thinking "my god, this isn't so bad... in fact, i'm kinda ENJOYING this..."

gah, too many radiohead albums for me, i'm liking it too much.

OH MY GOD, ELP, WHAT DID HE JUST DO TO THAT KEYBOARD?!?!? OH MY GOD, THAT IS THE MOST INCREDIBLE THING I'VE EVER SEEN. FUCK PUNK, THIS IS FUCKING AMAZING!!!!

oh dear, it's yes now, i'm getting offline before my cred hangs in any more tatters.

Actually, the funniest/greatest prog performance I ever saw was of Gentle Giant, from the late 70s. Derek Schulman truly is the king of manic machismo and electric leisure suits.

(no amon duul I or II yet... and aren't they more krautrock than prog, tho?)

we have had only one chapman stick make an appearance on the program.

np: King Crimson, The Power to Believe

i want a mellotron...

Even better to see him do that live, in the middle of...[low baritone voice] "Tarkus". Not a Chapman Stick, though (at least, not any Chapman Stick I've ever seen)...

Just listen to the first four minutes or so of "Close to the Edge". Some truly wacky playing. I've always liked Howe's playing. the 'Going for the One' album has some great playing too.

Anybody into shit like Breadwinner, Don Caballero, even a band like Helmet has to hear King Crimson's 'Red'. It's phucking phenominal.

http://synthfool.com/images/paris3.jpg

ELP were great (not for the music tho').

Pity there was nothing on Van der Graaf. not enough hits I suppose.

it was a genre that might have been hostile to 'singles' but they released them.

Ahem. I watched the top ten prog when it was first on, b/c we had the telly then. It always irritated me on those progs that you'd see clips that you'd never seen before, and you'd want to see more, & it would really sux0r. Plus, the presenters were always really ass as well (exceptions, lemmy, boy george, marc almond) at least they didn't have phil jupituss on (he said for 997th time) but I do find bill bailey v irritating. Weren't Camel terrible?

(ps I found alleged email addy for crowther audio {ex-drummer for split enz by the by} & have mailed him to see if it works. will forward if a response is, uh, forthcoming)

::destroys several boys' dreams::

I thought that was a really obvious joke, but i suppose it's really not out of the realms of possibility...

http://synthfool.com/images/avatarart.jpg

its still a kewl pic.

i do love the pic, tho.

And Kate, I so wish that photo was you; I was totally convinced!

i wish i could really say that photo could have been me... i could almost get away with it, but i was a lot blonder at age 5.

And a theremin to boot! That is the coolest little girl EVER.

Read: copies of Downbeat ca. 1969-72, wherein the jazz critics get all excited about the increasingly seriousness and musical sophisticated of rock music and actually use the word "progressive," repeatedly, as a superlative. It all changed a few years down the line I think.

should be "increasing seriousness and musical sophistication"

Or, because there are no interesting personas in prog-rock for those who have moved beyond fantasy for the un-self-aware escapist, narcissistic 'psychedelia', or even the (vague) politics of feeling sad (guess who).

Destroy: The Amon Duul records.

''I really really like King Crimson's "Red"; even the vocals!''

I think the vocals are very good here. the lyrics aren't so annoying (in cf to some of their other recs, check out a web database for yourself).

There was a v funny bit when bill bailey (who presented top ten) said that Bryan ferry auditioned for Crimson and he read out some King Crimson lyrics. he then threw the paper, and walked away (''what twaddle!'').

the 'fun' of rock and 'melodic beauty' of classical becomes v tiresome after a while.

listening to some of the music on 'Top ten' its the classical/pop compromise that grates.

''or even the (vague) politics of feeling sad (guess who).''

I don't know what this means.

Something about this seems very wrong. First, prog was rock (if not rock 'n roll). It incorporated other influences like classical and jazz like some bands may have incorporated African drums or country elements or minimalist drones but that doesn't make it less rock. And as Mark said on the Yes vs Neil thread, Yes had a fantastic fluid rhythm section. What rhythmic qualities do you see in rock 'n' roll that are missing in prog? Without explaining this, the statement seems puzzling to me. Some of it did try to push rock rhythmically, by trying new rhythmic approaches. If anything, Yes or Genesis probably had a better sense of rhythm (and were probably more 'fun') than, say, the Velvet Underground or Patti Smith (both of whom I also like). And I like some of their melodies too.

Presumably the poster was referring to a toe-tapping 4/4 beat (frequently absent from prog).

Prog had no sense of fun????

Destroy: Dream Theater/Liquid Tension Experiment, Marillion, ELP, Moody Blues, Alan Parsons, Spock's Beard

Presumably the poster was referring to a toe-tapping 4/4 beat (frequently absent from prog)

This is sort of what I guessed. Why would a different/more complicated approach to rhythm necessarily be a detriment or less fun?

Prog had no sense of fun????

This is similar to my reaction as well. It seems obvious to me that prog bands were more concerned with being all about over-the-top theatrics and drama and energy (which usually register as cheap 'fun') than most singer-songwriters or postpunk mopes for example. I don't think it's an accident that it had more mainstream appeal at the time or that it continues to get mainstream airplay.

"Eye In the Sky" justifies anything else Alan Parsons may have done in his life BTW.

For people who like music they can dance to or just generally
'groove' to (tapping toes and the like) perhaps it would.

(Suspicion: The history of rock criticism has been determined by that critics are mostly English and journalism majors.)

Certainly from the point of view of someone wanting to dance, prog would have had too many changes in tempo/time signature, plus un-rhythmic instrumental parts. Of course there are exceptions.

Sundar, your quote on singer-songwriters is bang OTM and I'm adopting it as my new motto! Every singer-songwriter review should say that, especially reviews of that fucking Beck record.

For this one album, ex-Buggles Geoff Downes and Trevor Horn were drafted in to replace Anderson and Wakeman. It rocks harder than other Yes albums, and for classically inclined fans was a jarring departure; but it was a harbinger of Yes and Asia albums to come. A newly emboldened Squire lays down aggressive rhythms with White, and Howe eschews his usual acoustic rags and flamenco licks for a more metallic approach, opting for sheets of electric sound. Prime cuts include the doom-laden "Machine Messiah" and the manic ska inflections of "Tempus Fugit." Despite the promise of this new material, the band soon fell apart; Horn went into production, Howe and Downes joined Asia, and Squire and White toyed and then gave up on a pair-up with Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, which was to be titled XYZ (i.e., Ex-Yes and Zeppelin). — Paul Collins

I agree that the process by which "pop music" became reified began before recording technology came into the picture. in fact it a perception of this "popular music" that smothers all local cultures etc., was a major anxiety of the ballad scholars of the mid-late 19th c. ( i think we can sneer at their naivete as regards the 'purity' of folk ballads if we like, but they were essentially right in that the ballads did die out rather rapidly in the face of mass production etc.)

Hoooold up - prog-metal = Primus = RoXor, no?!

Anyway.

Search In The Court Of The Crimson King,/I>, as has been suggested many times. Also search Focus's amazing "Hocus Pocus and "The Four Horsemen" by Aphrodite's Child. Destroy Yes, for they are fools.

I think this topic was being debated by mark s and Marcello at a FAP last year *before I arrived*. ( They changed the subject to something EASIER when they saw me coming, I reckon.)

surely psychedelia has more to do with the doors/grateful dead/hendrix.

paul st*mp starts the story much too late imo

actually one route into it wd be PETE FRAME!!

dr c, did you ever read that biog of graham bond (a v.weird fellow)?

..er sompin like 'at ... my first post of the day ....

it's true that prog has become rock's Designated Demon since punk, but 25 years later (!!) this is merely a tremendously lazy journalist's cliche => also quite unattractive, with the clear mainstream victors constantly bigging themselves up as the plucky underdogs they briefly were in their youth

OK.

Brit-psych is v. different to this! More pop than the above rock IMO.

The improv world IS probably key - and an area I don't know much about - were the likes of Chris Squire listening to free jazz in the late 60's.

G. Bond - ha! No, I haven't read the biog, but he's interesting. I don't know about his abilities as a jazzer and I haven't heard the later solo stuff, but I don't think much to the several R+B tracks I've got on comps. The GBO are leading contenders for the ugliest band of all time, too.

My question: is "prog" "rock"? Is this question the cause of much unnecessary suffering?

I have precious little of this but I'll pull up that thread where you gave a good list of bands and get on with listening to some of it.

Not sure what he was listening to, but Chris Squire was playing in an ace psyche band called Syn, pre-Yes. Steve Howe was playing with an even more ace band called Tomorrow. Bill Bruford, on the other hand, was playing straight bop -- and was under the impression he might eventually do the same with Yes when he joined. I think Jon Anderson was wanting to do Beatles/Hollies/CSN-type stuff. I guess if you add them up, you get close to prog.

my counter-question, w.exact same follow-up: is rock pop?

And Howe was in The Syndicats (Joe Meek, Joe Meek!!)before Tomorrow. Actually I think Tomorrow are key here along with The Nice and SF Sorrow-era Pretty Things.

Anderson - yes, you might be right. I've got a track by a band he was in in 1965 called The Warriors. They were doing fairly standard post-Merseybeat stuff.

Anyone heard Fripp, Giles et al in The Brain. Very early, very silly proto-prog.

they were the first "rock band" ever to feature on radio three i think (or the Third Programme, as it may still have been) and to play in the proms... amm supported them at the ica (and more famously supported pink floyd at the roundhouse, where tomorrow were virtually the houseband)

(gryphon - lineup included crumhorns and serpents and other medieval instruments - were the first "rock band" ever to be featured on radios 1, 2, 3 *and* 4!!)

This makes me think of Dave Edmund's Love Sculpture, which proves he could've been one of the greatest proggers ever! (Or at least as flash-bang-boom as ELP.)

I could very much see Peter Banks being into free jazz at the time (as a musical influence), though...

By "their" I mean Yes, of course, not Jack Bruce and John Entwistle. :)

#2: Dark Side of the Moon

Here are some pics of Il Balletto di Bronzo when they performed over here in 2000:

http://www.studiomlive.com/nearfest2k/balletto_photos/

Alleluja! Alleluja!

Proposition: Our next President should be determined by who can do the more soulful cover of Magma's "Otis".

this is the gayest story i've ever heard. did you guys have hobbit sex afterwards

jp: Close to the Edge (I think part of totally clicking with this has to do with feeling the switch-up in feel from "And You and I" to "Siberian Khatru". Till now, I think I was too used to expecting "All Good People" from the Classic Yes sequencing.)

http://www.progarchives.com/

a signed ruins CD for the first person who can fill in the --- blanks
"As for the --- label, people can label Extra Life any way they find useful. I just don't listen to music labeled ---. To me, most of that music feels soulless and unemotional. People might call Extra Life --- because the music is technically complicated. But for me this complexity is only about creating emotional intensity, nothing else. I'm trying to move people. Most --- bands use contrived complexity to mask the fact that they have no conviction about what they're doing, and haven't had any life experience other than practicing their instruments. I didn't get into writing epic complicated music through ---. I got into it through 20th century classical composers like Iannis Xenakis and metal/hardcore bands like Converge."
http://gapersblock.com/transmission/2009/02/16/a_quick_chat_with_charlie_look/