Hendrix: Classic or Dud?

The hippy-dippy side of Hendrix tends to obscure the latent punk agg of his best work - he was one ANGRY cat a lot of the time, and for good reason. Shapiro and Glebbeek's 'Electric Gypsy' biog is poorly written but still sad, painful reading - it's hard to think of a major artist who was more misunderstood/misrepresented than Hendrix, and the terrible racism he encountered would've left anybody fuming. Listen to 'The Smashing of the Amps' on David Toop's 'Guitars on Mars' comp, the two version of 'Driving South' on the BBC session disc or (more obviously) 'The Star-Spangled Banner' from 'Woodstock' to hear Hendrix creating noise-rock years before (whoever).

"Who is the Jimi Hendrix of vocalists?" "Peter Hammill." "Who is the Noel Redding of vocalists?" "Jimi Hendrix."

I feel about Hendrix as Chuck D felt about Elvis, I guess ...

What stamps does he appear on anyway ?

if you can just get your mind together.........................."

Tracer Hand's well-documented argument re. marine imagery is lovely. Marine imagery is a valuable resource in pop. I also recall Reynolds saying that 'Feel like I'm living in the bottom of a grave' was the forerunner of 'I Know It's Over'.

I like Hendrix a lot. I like 'guitar heroes' and 'virtuosity'; or at least, some of the instances of those things. All-time favourite Hendrix tracks, possibly: the cover of 'Day Tripper', and the extraordinary scorching fast blues of 'Driving South', on the BBC sessions.

It's problematic because EVERYBODY thinks he's a don and it's been said so many times it's boring. I know man, everyone goes on about it... But if you put on his albums and listen to every little fucking thing the guy does then it's actually physically impossible to deny the man his due as the best. Ever. Will ever be. If you wanna disagree then a: you are wrong b: you are missing something c: you have no soul.

I'd like to play devil's advocat here and slate the man but you just can't do it. He plays the guitar not like he was born to but like God put another son together and thought "fuck all that religion shit, this one's gonna rock."

And Jimi does rock. Fuck that shit about lyrics, sure Dylan, Lennon, Morrison and even Jagger rip him up there and plenty more, but in terms of making that six stringer sing like a mother fucker, like no could make it sing before or has done since, Hendrix is God. The lyrics don't count here guys, hello. That's not what it's about.

To try to pretend anything else is crap and if you don't believe it, go to any his albums 5 times in succession, so you get into it and start tripping on the same vibe as Jimi. The guy is untouchable. So fucking cool it hurts and out there, and I mean properly out there.

Vai and all the rest of those souless technicalistas might play faster. But they cant write a tune for shit. Jimi, like I said at the start, is a once ever phenomenon.

Jimi=greatest rock improv musician. Evah.

Paul's take is interesting because a dead Hendrix is so convenient in ways for projection (not that Paul himself is necessarily doing that, it was more the music being compared that struck me). He'd be a jazz visionary, he'd be a dance music maven, he'd be a synthesizist of musics all around the world -- I've heard all these kinds of takes and more over time, and I have to wonder if this isn't so much an attempt to celebrate Hendrix as it is to claim some sort of justification for what one likes oneself using him as a role model for what 'might' have happened. The possibility that he might have turned up like Eric Clapton, say, is often overlooked -- and as much as we might claim he wouldn't, we can't prove it.

What was the band template that the Velvet's created? A quartet with guitar, bass, and drums? They were hardly the first band with that line-up. Whether people copied Hendrix directly or indirectly, he changed the way that people thought about the electric guitar as an instrument. And more than any other artist, he ensured that the electric guitar would remain the central instrument of rock music for generations to come. I can't think of anything the Velvet's did of comparable significance.

It's not wrong per se if they're saying it for themselves -- which they are (one hopes! -- though one wonders the questions about canonicity that goes on in an individual commentator's head, cf Roger Ebert's comment on how he usually says when asked that Citizen Kane is the greatest American film but does so less than because he believes it on all fronts but because it's a convenient and understandable choice). Stepping outside themselves to say it's the same for me as well before I've had the chance to say anything or presuming I will say nothing on the matter in response = sucks. But this is just me being the radical subjectivist again, which shouldn't surprise anyone here. ;-)

or offer an alternative, more compelling interpretation

I'm not entirely sure of what you're getting ahead here, I admit.

Why, they made sunglasses and dark clothes look good. Though to be sure Roy Orbison already had them beat.

Actually, I sorta think that it IS the fact that he helped make the electric guitar still the obsessive focus of rock music as conceived that might explain my unease as well -- is there any particular reason why that should have been the case, why it needed to be 'ensured'?

'ahead' = 'at.' MY BRAIN HURTS!

Template created by VU=classic pop song structure vs. abstract noise.

Kraftwerk-->Beach Boys. Uh, what?

Yes, yes, feel free to append "this is just my humble opinion and god forbid I would suggest that anyone else in the world might feel the same way" to everything I say if it makes you feel better.

MUCH OF THE WORLD OVER TIME: "Hendrix, the tragically cut short legend, the greatest guitarist ever, the master visionary of rock and roll, etc. etc."

YOUNGER ME: "Mm."

(eventually hears songs along the way, some of the albums, etc.)

YOUNGER ME: "Huh. Er, okay. Some good songs, yes."

(relistens over time)

NOT-AS-YOUNGER ME: "Well, you know, I can see more where others were listening in but still, I don't really want to listen to any of this all that much..."

(more or less the present day)

MUCH OF THE WORLD OVER TIME: "Hendrix, the tragically cut short legend, the greatest guitarist ever, the master visionary of rock and roll, etc. etc."

ME NOW: "Mm."

I do appreciate what you've said about why you like Hendrix above there, Ben -- I do find that very relevant! It says much more about the music than many commentaries on the man, as does Paul's take. I'm just not agreeing with you on Hendrix's end worth when it comes to me as a listener.

I will certainly say that I was rather flip in the initial exchange, but we were both dealing in oversimplifications of our thoughts on the matter, surely.

Even if VU could be credited with this breakthrough (and I haven't done enough research to make a judgment), it could hardly be considered as influential as Hendrix's innovations with the guitar. Sure there are a few (mostly poorly selling) "alternative" bands that take this approach, but you won't find many bands on the charts that combine pop structures with abstract noise. However, Hendrix's guitar innovations continue to be found all over the place (witness the popularity of nu-metal, for instance).

The greatness of hendrix lies in the fact that some of his solos are very nice rock-improv but he also wrote songs within that and combined w/studio trickery. I don't know abt specific innovations with the guitar but he got some amazing sounds out of it. Though that can be said for many guitarists in the last 30 years.

''Sure there are a few (mostly poorly selling) "alternative" bands that take this approach, but you won't find many bands on the charts that combine pop structures with abstract noise. However, Hendrix's guitar innovations continue to be found all over the place (witness the popularity of nu-metal, for instance).''

I think you can find the 'influence' of VU in many many indie bands (though it's not 'sister ray' it's more 'pale blue eyes' type things which i do not enjoy). From what I've heard nu-metal riffs are over- produced power chords which is not something Hendrix did.

I'm not saying that the charts dictate quality, but I think if we are going to debate influence, then the charts are as good a measure as any.

hendrix's stuff is 'psychedelic'. I've heard electric ladyland and 2CD band of Gypsys live set and there's hooks with improvisation and certain 'effects', and feedack but not just the two as you describe above, which is why I don't get your references to the charts.

The velvets had far more of a 'feedback assault' in them.

I wouldn't really call Hendrix's songs "pop hooks" and I don't think he had as much to do with the invention of metal as, say, Black Sabbath. Whereas there are thousands of bands that copied VU--as the cliche goes, they "invented indie" (unfortunately).

For one thing, Sabbath came much later. It seems pretty clear to me that Hendrix paved the way for the invention of heavy metal. It's debatable whether or not he invented it himself, but clearly the seeds are there in the way he structured his songs around highly- amplified, distorted blues-based riffs. This is the vein that later metal groups like Zeppelin and Sabbath would go on to mine.

There are pop hooks in Hendrix's songs, but perhaps they're harder to spot because they are mixed with blues and jazz as well. Songs like "Wind Cries Mary" or "Manic Depression" are catchy pop, among other things.

(I have never knowingly heard Jimi Hendrix, hah!)

I wish more indie bands (Ha! I almost inadvertently typed "blands".) used violas.

Pretty much the only thing we can debate. Or we get:

"I hate Hendrix"

"I disagree. He's great"

"Nothing to disagree about. I hate him."

No debate possible.

"I hate Hendrix."

"How can you? It says in this book here that he is the greatest ever! And it has facts 1-5 to prove it."

"Oh, sorry. I guess I must bow down under the weight of this independently verifiable evidence. Hendrix is a god."

(the secret of subjectivity in re ILM is not just allowing people to decide whether an artist is great or not but, more importantly allowing them to debate the criteria by which said greatness is judged. The arguments discussed upthread have little to do with the criteria a person listening might bring to a Hendrix record, and everything to do with what a historian might write down for the public good. This is what I object to)

When I said "taste in the public domain" I meant judgements on quality which seek to gain universal recognition. Which is clearly not what you thought it was - I grant there may be better ways of putting it, but I don't think its a totally incorrect usage of the term.

The notion of debate presupposes that, of two conflicting views, there is at least the potential for one to be more valid than the other.

If the value of art is determined purely subjectively, no sincerely held opinion is less valid than any other. So no meaningful debate is possible.

If we're going to accept your definition of "meaningful debate" (ie. debate which necessarily arrives at a consensus - though note that you've totally ignored the possibility of changing people's subjectively held opinions via persuasion) I guess I'll just have to sacrifice meaningful debate then. I'm sure that at least a couple of people on the boards will be happy to indulge me by participating in what is clearly pointless and mindless nattering.

the existence of ilm answers — indeed, completely dissolves — arf arf's argument

I don't think Arf Arf's arguments were defeated there, more that they were lost track of, ignored, etc.

I don't see any way out of his basic argument here. If Mr. Iconoclast says, "I hate Jimi Hendrix" and Mr. Canonical says, "I love Jimi Hendrix," there isn't really the grounds for an argument over whether something is or isn't the case (unless they want to question whether or not the other is telling the truth). There's no disagreement any more than there is if one person says they like chocolate and someone else says they like vanilla. Mr. I's "I hate Jimi Hendrix" and Mr. C's "I love Jimi Hendrix" can both be true assertions.

But if Mr. I says, "Jimi Hendrix, considered overall as an artist, sucks" and Mr. C says, "Jimi Hendrix, considered overall as an artist, is great," there is the basis for an argument. Both assertions can't be true.

I assume this is obvious enough, so where is the weakness is this argument that I am missing?

"True for me" I don't really get. I have read discussions of this way of speaking, pro and con, but it seems to me to turn the concept of truth on its head. (Are you asserting that something is the case or not, damn it?)

Despite basically agreeing, I think, with Arf Arf's argument, I'm also not that concerned about it when it comes to discussing music. I understand his frustration at seeing people constantly appear to be making assertions, but when called on it just saying that it means "true for me."

*

I do agree that Arf Arf seems to underestimate the amount of meaningful discussion that can still take place if I says "I hate" and C says "I love." C. can always say (as someone here has said to Gareth), "But don't you see how similar Hendrix is to this other music you like?" Without asserting that Hendrix really is or isn't good, you can still try to lead someone to hear him more like you hear him.

mark s, could you come down from your laconic heights to explain this?

No it isn't.

Quite right, which is how Paul's and Ben's further explanations are most worthy. :-) There's a realm for negotiation and deeper understanding, though it need not necessarily mean a situation where 'both assertions can't be true' as you state, DeRayMi -- but that's the difference between us on the 'true for me' part.

Taking that more thoroughly -- I know that it's very VERY true for me that MBV are my favorite ever band and that "Soon" my favorite ever song. Nothing has made me feel like that before or since that first cataclysmic listen, and it still connects with something deep in my heart whenever I hear it since. But I can't force anyone to *agree* with me on that point, and I can't necessarily argue in depth to the point where someone will then agree with me by my arguments alone. They're going to have to hear the song and decide, and indeed, maybe my talking about the song will have given them a different perspective on it. But they could still disagree and not think much of the song -- and I'm not going to be wounded or annoyed with that assertion, because they'll have heard the song and decided, same way that I could hear something -- Belle and Sebastian, say, specifically one of the songs that nearly every fan really loves -- and still consider it to be bleah even though there are many, many passionate believers in said song's worth.

On the other hand, I am not convinced that there are objective aesthetic values, and Arf Arf's attempts (elsewhere) to account for this, isn't entirely convincing; though I think he takes it in the most plausible direction possible (an appeal to some sort of community consensus--but can "intersubjective" ever translate into "objective"?--rather than, say, an appeal to some sort of Fort Knox of Platonic ideals to back up the currency of our judgments!). Arf Arf's argument paraphrased above is an argument about the implications of language, assertion, etc. It doesn't prove that values are objective.

I'm not sure where that leaves me. As I've said before, I am a subjectivist, but am not particularly comfortable about that, partly because it sometimes seems that when we have these discussions we are arguing about the real properties of particular works of art, artists, etc.

I wonder if it's worth starting another new thread.

"purely subjective" = failing to understand meaning either of word "purely" or of "subjective" (or of "meaning", come to that) (or "value", since that's the word arfarf actually did use)

objectivity = kill the people and the meaning will remain? this is what dayremi sneakily means by "overall" eg considered beyond time and history => but hendrix's "greatness as an artist" has no meaning beyond time and history (at which point, being meaningless, the statements stop being contradictory)

in the real, non-mystical, temporal-historical world, "jimi hendrix is shit" requires a socius to provide meaning and/ or usage (if these are different) for the four words between the quotemarks = byebye "objectivity vs subjectivity"

arguments are not won by "demonstration of validity" (eg reduction to purely logical form) they're won when you have something pointed out to you that matters to you that you hadn't thought of, probably a relationship to an aspect of the world that you'd allowed yrself to get dissociated from the question under discussion (pure logic can't even ground arithmetic, the much-cited exemplar of so-called "objective knowledge") (haha kurt gödel co-owns those threads)

I'm not underestimating the amount of meaningful discussion you can have about music even if you are - for want of a better word - a "subjectivist". The example you give is a perfect illustration.

But I was focussing explictly upon the idea of debate about value. It is only meaningful if you believe that subjective judgements can be validated to some extent by non-subjective criteria. And here, non-subjective criteria can only be the opinion of other people, either in the mass (in which case great art and popular art is the same thing) or a subset of the population agreed by consensus to have "good taste". Which is why I objected to the notion of debate being reduced in value if it has reference to "taste in the public domain": in fact it can only have any meaning at all if it has reference to "taste in the public domain".

I still don't understand your point.

objectivity = kill the people and the meaning will remain? this is what dayremi sneakily means by "overall" eg considered beyond time and history =>

I appreciate being credited with sneakiness, but I don't think I was being sneaky. I was trying to find some way to make sure that no one could say both statements could in fact be true. Even Aristotle qualifies saying that the same statement can't be both true and false, by adding "in the same respect," or something of that sort. That's what I had in mind. (Hendrix could rule technically, but suck in terms of expressiveness or creativity, or something of that sort. That's what I had in mind.)

Logic is not the only consideration in philosophical debates, but it should be given some credit. It may not win the war, but philosophical debaters generally agree to acknowledge that it can win specific battles. To jetisson the importance of logic is, in my view, to no longer be doing philosophy*. But again, that's not to say that everything that matters in philosophical argument is reducible to logic, something I definitely don't belive.

Your remaining points I need to think over. I don't think Arf Arf is appealing to anything atemporal or mystical, though.

*--I suppose you could reply: who said anything about doing philosophy?

*

mark s, if it makes you feel any better, I have a headache as well.

i have no plan to jettison logic, but 'in the same respect" is a weasel phrase, but it just hides the thing you actually want to discuss inside "same" or "respect" (or possibly "in" but NOT "the", phew): when you translate ordinary language into logical form, you're always sedimenting assumptions along the way, and contrasting versions of this translations are a great of flushing out said assumptions, but the conclusion (the "victory") comes with the production of the forgotten-suppressed-overlooked stuff, not the logical contradiction itself. That's just a tool (I mean, it's a great one): for example, the proof by non-contradiction of the converse of the parallelism postulate in Euclid of the existence of geometries in which said postulate didn't obtain wasn't considered interesting or convincing until Lobachevsky and the Bolyais and Gauss and Reimann had all come up with their different maps (and with them, uses/meanings, mathematically speaking) of hyperbolic and parabolic geometry. The logical argument was the start. The arguments against Cantor's endless nested infinities didn't really bite, because despite the apparent contradictions (what does it mean to say one infinity is "bigger" than another), there were already practical uses/meanings for the distinction ahd the gradation. Brouwer's painstaking grounding of calculus on a method which DIDN'T involve "arithmetic" of infinitesimals was considered an irrelevant sideshow.

I am striving to render our headache objective.

objectivity = postponed until the conclusion of all arguments and plus the total course of this sorry veil of tears

The imprecision of language may be a problem (and I can see the difficulty with non subjective criteria since some metaphysicists would of course argue there is no such thing). But that doesn't mean that debate about aesthetic value doesn't have its own peculiar difficulties.

Taking the statement

"The Beatles music is better than the Beach Boys music"

The question I'm addressing is not "is this statement capable of proof" (I agree it is not, and assume that is common ground); but "does this statement have any meaning whatsoever".

The logical conclusion of a purely subjectivist position (and I don't like the language either but nevertheless I think the meaning is clear enough) is "no".

Which is fine, I don't have any problem with a subjectivist position sincerely believed, with all the implications that has for what can be validly discussed, and proper respect for other opinions.

What I object to is people hypocritically adopting a dogmatically subjectivist position when it suits them (usually to reject the notion that some other point of view - the Canon, music magazines - may be more authoritative than theirs); but feeling perfectly free most of the parade their "good taste" and disrespect the taste of others.

Some kind of evaluation must precede argument or there would be no basis for it. Admittedly argument can alter valuation, but only if you believe the argument has meaning (and the concept of aesthetic value has meaning). The logical conclusion of a subjectivist position is that you believe neither of these things.

ned to thread i suppose, and NO PRIVATE LANGUAGES mr raggett!!

Its not that you are 'wrong', its just that being (more) right isn't particualrly useful when being (slightly) wrong gets a much easier free exchange of views in a discourse of peers.

Its a logical fallacy of 'composition' you repeat in different guises. In the marketing thread it went roughly like "Everything is Marketing, Some things are not bad... thus marketing is not bad".

I think most grown-ups understand that they have falable viewpoints, I even played about with Habermas's "knowledge constitutive" (esp. Emancipatory) in the thread about Arthur Lee by claiming he was so good that it must have been doing so to annoy French Cultural commentators.

So can we all agree that you are right - there is no such thing as subjective and objective and its all just an illusion. However its a pleasing and helpful illusion.

I've no idea how subjective/objective I am being when I say Hendrix doesn't suck - and I don't care because its not an important part of the discourse and the interaction of the discourse community (ie the pleasing and or useful element of the discussion).

I don't think Hendrix sucks, its pretty good odds that if someone else think Hendrix sucks then I don't share enough od their value systems to engage in a pleasing discussion with them. I can't be sure about that, but I certainly wouldn't send that person blind record shopping with my own money - 'oh just get me anything, I'm sure I'll like it'.

Skribble dwefflenurbs. QUO? Zalnage.

What I object to is people hypocritically adopting a dogmatically subjectivist position when it suits them (usually to reject the notion that some other point of view - the Canon, music magazines - may be more authoritative than theirs); but feeling perfectly free most of the parade their "good taste" and disrespect the taste of others.

In terms of my own statements, I'll agree I'll have made some flip statements here on ILX, but generally speaking they are that, flip. Thus on the Prince thread just now, when I was zinging Sean C. a bit over His Purpleness, and intentionally being very over-the-top about it -- the fact that he doesn't think much of the man actually doesn't bother me at all. At most, if serious answers were all that is asked for on that thread in particular, I would think, "Gosh, these songs really do move me a hell of a lot, so it's initially hard to imagine otherwise -- but such is the case, and that is life, so hey."

I think there's a general question of tone here that is important.

Some kind of evaluation must precede argument or there would be no basis for it. Admittedly argument can alter valuation, but only if you believe the argument has meaning (and the concept of aesthetic value has meaning). The logical conclusion of a subjectivist position is that you believe neither of these things.

Not so, I would say. At least, it seems to me that you're fixing 'aesthetic value' in particular as, if not an objective standpoint, then a generally universally agreed upon construction. But is that the case? Seems said value is as slippery and up for negotiation as many other things. So I might believe in certain aesthetic values for myself, but others might not think much of said values at all. Am I right and they wrong? The concept can be considered generally valid but its interpretation and application radically differing from person to person.

In keeping with Mark S, I'm also confused as to what your meaning of 'evaluation' is...

Doubtless, but does this happen much anyway? Instead we rely on recommendations and discussions, and this need not -- especially the time of mp3s -- mean extra expenditures or 'blind shopping.'

Well, his music makes you happy, yes? And the rest of the world could say otherwise and you wouldn't care? Sounds pretty subjective to me -- I'm *very* much not trying to be flip here, I'm just trying to guess at how this wouldn't be seen as subjective.

You know ML right? His huge parcels of stuff would be full of complete gems. So actually the 'would I send 'em shopping for me' is my main criteria for valuing someone's opinions. (I'd probably want a wee bit more information than their opinion on one artist, but it would have ruined the point of my previous message if I said that).

And yeah, saying "I don't think Hendrix sucks" is almost certainly 'pretty subjective', and I may or may not be self aware of that, but the point is, its not important. If we all image that every message ends in "IMHO" we can get on sharing information and attempting to assimilate each others views. The converse of this, is that overstating that each message here is just one person's opinion gets kinda weak.

I got the new Rothko album today, its great. Thats just my opinion though.

I don't see this as the case, though. Opinions on music are indeed, as I see them, inherently valid for each person as they possess them. But that doesn't then mean that said opinions can't rub up against each other, that interchange and exchange can't happen. I admit I find the insistence otherwise a bit strange, so that's perhaps why I'm so puzzled here. Why does the lack of an objective center prevent discussion of ideas?

A fine criteria in this case, since indeed I know ML and think him a grand feller. :-) But this is something you and he grew into, a relationship and friendship where you realized over time that there was a fine balance and exchange. It wasn't immediate, it was tested through time, if you like -- maybe an initial risk that you yourself trusted his judgment, a matching of, if you like, subjective but similar standards.

For myself, I admit I'd trust ML down the line with my money. I would be very surprised he wanted to trust me with his (I'd be flattered, though!).

The converse of this, is that overstating that each message here is just one person's opinion gets kinda weak.

Now this is more than fair -- but, as Tim, Tracer, Sean and others were saying, there is a sense, unavoidable in many cases and sensed maybe more in tone or in context, that the IMHO is often absent. If pressed, you and I and all of us here on this thread, I'd hope, would say, "Well, it's my opinion at base," or ultimately don't need to say it. But how many people, critical voices, installations (yer Rock and Roll Hall of Fames, yer Billboard rankings, yer Rolling Stone encyclopedias, whatever) take a far more dogmatic vision? I've encountered plenty of them, surely we all have. So again, I think there's a question of tone and context here, a strong one. "IMHO" may seem like a cop-out, but personally I see it as a powerful validation given how music is interpreted, discussed, enjoyed, received. It may be overemphasized but it IS important.

some of them have no meaning and some of them have too many meanings and all of them divert arguments down into bad gulleys

Hmm, no, definately not. If that was the case my only 'interesting' political discussions would be with Daily Telegraph readers, my only interesting discussion on gender issues with be with bigots. I don't find it all that interesting to talk to rabid homophobes for instance. I don't need to really understand them to appreciate my own opinions (whats to understand? I'll still just think of them as wankers). When I read vile hate websites like godhatesfags.com I feel nothing but revulsion - its certainly non- pleasing, its just not interesting. These people may be worth watching, but not because they have insights I need to constantly try to appreciate.

Obviously Im not suggesting there is a direct relationship between extreme bigots and people who aren't keen on Hendrix...(an extemem bigot may have their good points too - thats a joke ffs), but its a similar situation of probability of saying something interesting.

I think the interesting stuff comes from pleasing discussions with people who can offer contrasting opinions on specific things - but share enough of your values to allow you access to the things they value.

Having listened carefully to all the interesting debate following an earlier post I made, I would like to now state for the record that I think Hendrix is for shit and isn't really up to it after all.

Does this mean another 700 posts will follow?

Hmm, no, definately not. If that was the case my only 'interesting' political discussions would be with Daily Telegraph readers.

I think the interesting stuff comes from pleasing discussions with people who can offer contrasting opinions on specific things - but share enough of your values to allow you an access point to the things they value.

Gareth, this has nothing to do with the arguments that were made. Using the names Mr. Iconoclast and Mr. Canonical was meant as an alternative to using some more generic designation such as "Mr. X" and "Mr. Y." (It was meant to be slightly funny, but it probably failed to be funny at all.) The names are completely irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Incidentally, I don't own any Hendrix albums.

i thought he was cool on the lulu show, i thought he had coolhair, i like his voice and the fact that he made it in london town but this is nearly all icon stuff - as for his music well heard a load of it - own none of it

Honestly, I do not think that the only reason someone would not like Hendrix is because they were trying to prove something, or were intetionally going out of their way to flaunt convention.

Holy shit "Crosstown Traffic" is great

Does Gareth still hate Hendrix I wonder?

Just because someone can play the guitar well, or even with their teeth, does not mean they have a talent for making good music, does it?

Not neccessarily, but unless they stay away from extreme metal they usually do. And, yes, this goes for Joe Satriani as well.

how can anyone say hendrix couldnt write songs? maybe this holds true for all the stuff that came out after he died, but only partially so. the cry of love material might not be his strongest or as brilliant as the first 3 albums, but its still solid. the unfinished stuff that came after, obviously a lot of that is a bit unfocused, but its unfair to include that.

Holy shit "Crosstown Traffic" is great

it is the Hendrix gateway drug

classic. so glad First Rays Of The Rising Sun is finally completed, it makes an amazing posthumous album.

Holy shit "Crosstown Traffic" is great

-- Dom Passantino, Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:44 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Link

yeah this is so true

If I recall my Hendrix lore correctly, Jimi didn't want Crosstown Traffic on the album, as he felt it sounded too much like "early" Experience. Chas Chandler (for whom this was the only production credit on the record) won the argument to our eternal benefit.

Classic.

Agreed, even if just for Band of Gypsys alone. I love that.

Hell, yeah. That shit blew me AWAY when I first heard it. I thought I liked Hendrix before I heard it. No concept.

this morning i was playing Band of Gypsys and wifee asked me if i was playing Pearl Jam.

we're getting divorced tomorrow

I can't even imagine which track might have sounded similar.

i think it was "Who Knows". don't think there was any singing at the time.

christgau once called hendrix "a psychedelic uncle tom"

¯\(°_o)/¯

ugh

Ugh for real...

Been seeing the 40th Anniversary edition of Electric Ladyland around, anyone know what the deal is with that thing?

Is Xgau Dying?

3 of 11 people found the following review helpful:

***** 40th Anniversary Release of Electric Ladyland
31 Dec 2008

By The Bass Man "Thebassman" (Hayling Island) - See all my reviews

Excellant release under the control of Authentic Hendrix, the Hendrix family business that controls all releases for the great man and a superb job they do too and this release is no exception.

The quality of releases just gets better and better,

I would recommend avoiding any retail material that is not released by Authentic Hendrix and most serious collectors of Hendrix material know this and all should report any dodgy recordings and releases to Authentic Hendrix where they can take the appropriate action.

You won't go wrong with this 40th Anniversary set.

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The Bass Man u r a feeb and a snitch

"the Hendrix family business that controls all releases for the great man and a superb job they do too and this release is no exception."

not so superb artwork though (outside of the original albums).

The person who recommended the 2 versions of Driving South from the BBC sessions upthread: OTM

love love love the first two Experience albums- all liquid r&b choppy rhythm guitar, and Noel & Mitch are fully involved. Just get a real sense of fun and energy that IMO was missing later.

buying up all the hendrix i could was one of the first things i did when i started buying vinyl. experienced/axis/electric ladyland, followed by live in the west, band of gypsys, then that trio of lps that people are sometimes iffy on because of the overdubs (war heroes, midnight lightning, crash landing). really love nine to the universe, too.

anyway, i saw that christgau comment and thought it was, um, "interesting".

hendrix is great...one of my favourites. i have reservations as positing him as the best of the best, but his classic songs, cut for cut, measure up against any other musician/band...

Crosstown Traffic
Castles Made of Sand
Manic Depression
Burning of the Midnight Lamp
Love or Confusion
Angel
Spanish Castle Magic
If 6 Was 9 (classic partly bcz of its formative influence on Ian Mackaye)

even the Bobbie D. cover isn't that bad...Jimi doesn't cover it so much as set it on fire (haha what an original trope)...

re Hendrix-Xgau-Uncle Tom...Lester Bangs kind of makes the same point (among some others) in his little "postmortem-interview" piece a while back...

a while back = before I was born

I'm the last person that would sit down and decisively listen to Hendrix for any reason given upthread, but tonight it was time to finally get around to listening to the BBC Sessions discs. I still reflexively tune out during anything that's Classic Rock Radio Blocks, but damn the versions of "Drive South" are pretty blazing. The trio is like a revved up Pebbles/Nuggest/Sugarcube Flashbacks garage rock and maybe that's the best way to approach it rather than some sort of untouchable Canon.

Anyway, Lemmy swears by Hendrix and I'll take his word for it. Guess you really did have to be there.

...or just here and listening to the albums and live shows, which are more than enough.

tarden / dave q is OTM when he mentions 3rd Stone From The Sun at the top of this thread.

We never did find out if gareth ever 'got' Hendrix, did we?

Em HATES classic rock, especially really boy-friendly wanky guitar stuff like The Doors & Led Zep. She used to hate Hendrix. Then she actually listened to him a few times. Now she finds him unbearably sexy. It's terrific.

I can only say he wrote some of the most spaced-out, sad, beautiful songs ever. And yes, his music is terribly sexy.

I've heard All Along the Watchtower a million times but it still sounds fantastic on the radio. The guitar parts are imprinted on my brain - this is a good thing.

Watchtower shreds. Every time. I love it live most of all, just the way they set that groove down and Jimi flies all over it. So great.

I love the 'Third stone from the Sun' demo (on the purple box set) when Jimi & Chas are giggling their way through the dialogue in the opener. I think that's what I find most classic...not just the guitar and the voice but the personality, when he talks in those live openings he just seems so...likeable. Also I lol at his 'yeah dig baby', 'hey yeah dig brother'...he's so groovy. But the thing I love most aside from Jimi as singer & guitarist is just how right-on Noel & Mitch were with him. The things that make Jimi's songs so great are, yes, Jimi...but without that tight groove holding it all together, they'd be nowhere.

Little Wing is still my most classic favorite. Or Midnight Lamp. Or In From the Storm. Ugh. Okay I can't pick one, forget I said anything.

I can't listen to Burning of the Midnight Lamp without re-playing it, like, six times. A perfect amalgamation of Percy Sledge and Amon Duul II. Hendrix is the best.

Xgau, who was in the audience, reacted against Hendrix' Monterey Pop performance, burning the guitar etc, but he also has a lot of often favorable, always well-considered comments on the albums(even though I don't always agree). Check his collected volumes of Consumer Guides and robertchristgau.com Think I might have to get that new Hendrix box set due next month.

what's this new box set? i get lost when it comes to hendrix reissues.

Somehow I never really listened to Electric Ladyland as an album until this week. Gee it's good. :)

what's this new box set? i get lost when it comes to hendrix reissues.

This thing. I just heard about it today. Looks pretty great, actually. I could live without the R&B stuff on Disc 1, and the DVD, but the other three discs all sound awesome.

"Xgau, who was in the audience, reacted against Hendrix' Monterey Pop performance, burning the guitar etc, but he also has a lot of often favorable, always well-considered comments on the albums"

God, who gives a flying fuck what that guy thinks. Do YOU like Hendrix? that's all that matters.

And personally, i like when shit gets lit on fire.

the thing about Hendrix--and I read a lot of this upthread and totally disagree with Gareth and Ned Raggett about Hendrix, by the way--uh, there's never been a Hendrix CULT, Ned, because Hendrix was already POPULAR in his heyday; as a 6th grader I knew his stuff and realized already that he related to soul and r&b, stuff I was familiar with already in concept, growing up here in the heart of the chitlin circuit; and Hendrix makes the Velvets look pretty effete. And I love the Velvets. I'm not sure just what would put you off unless it's the actual soulfulness of the enterprise, the oh-so-casual ripoff and simultaneous rejuvy of all rock cliches, more or less. Even stuff that's just a groove or where neither song structure nor sonics SEEM to make an avant-garde statement or whatever, like the second track of Axis, sounds good to me. "Crosstown Traffic" and the other big tunes sound great to me, and I really like the way he was doin' all them curlicues on blues guitar in his last months, cf. "Hear My Train a-Comin'" (not even in the big feedback extravaganzas, which sound utterly controlled to me anyway, but in the subtle commentary, the back-porch shit he does). He was such a fastidious guitar player, so concerned with the bon mot, and you can hear that shit. But again, I guess I ultimately hear it as a kind of soul music and that's why I don't understand Gareth or Ned. I mean, sure there have been a lot of people playing electric guitar since 1950. Hendrix was merely the last and most advanced, and most heroic, example of soul music and of blues, and yeah I think Sly and Miles and Mayfield and all that were great. More or less sums up black music aspiration to that point. Rock history jams it all down your throat, I know what Christgau was trying to say with "black Uncle Tom," but see, that's just his guilty white conscience. It's soul music, Bob, shuck and jive are what should be freeing your skinny ass, get some pussy for Chrissake, like Jimi...like that. After all, Hendrix' music is real positive and sunny (also outer-space and aquatic), so you're supposed to feel good when you hear it, which I always do.

righteous, brother, righteous.

yup.

I'm really shocked that Ned wd have a problem w/ Hendrix. Seems that would be right up his alley...

Bill, the only reason I mentioned xgau was because he'd been quoted several times on the thread, and his takes (def plural) on Hendrix shouldn't be reduced to "Uncle Tom", especially when he led me to some Hendrix albums, like Blues, that I would have missed otherwise. Like it says in A Film About Jimi Hendrix, Hendrix knew he had to follow the Who, knew most Americans hadn't heard him much live (and of Are You Experienced? was out yet, that was an album that had to grow on you, compared to the hype, and not the kind of presentation that would grab a stoned, possibly skeptical audience.) Thus the lighter fluid etc., but also he was very genial, a bit nudge-nudge-wink-wink, inviting his new thousands of friends in on the joke, off-handledly--but that was also a set-up/foreplay for the boom-boom. I've still got the vinyl somewhere, with the gist of his set (later complete on CD). That's one side, the other is equally dynamic greetings from Otis Redding ("So this is the love crowd,huh?")

http://devonrecordclub.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/the-jimi-hendrix-experience-are-you-experienced-round-24-grahams-choice/

Would have turned 70 today. (Yeah, I know, Noel Redding--love the song, though.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcrbSqySIpE

Love the graphics on these 70th Anniversary pedals

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.403.403/p403x403/599228_10151335732774453_229179289_n.jpg

One of the few of that generation of dead before their time musicians I'd be really curious to hear alive today. I'm sure he would have put out a string of dubious guitar synth records in the '80s, but by now ... who knows what he'd be up to? Jazz? Electronic music? Experimental stuff?

Co-incidentally I saw 'ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER HENDRIX YEAH! :-)' written in the dirt on a white van today.

This is a thread

Classic. The man changed the way rock guitar was played, and listened to, forever. There are guys who came after that can play faster, cleaner, etc. etc. but not with the same level of emotion and abandon... and humour. Most subsequent guitar gods were just way too humourless in their approach. And he's still got the best stage moves ever.

Nothing shabby about his songwriting, some of his lyrics are beautiful.

Classic. For 'Little Wing' alone. Beautiful . Just for the guitar

Another new album coming out in March too.

The Jimi Hendrix Experience are undoubtedly classic, and not just for Jimi's much-publicised and praised guitar skills either - there's as much appeal for me in Mitch Mitchell's drumming, the psychedelic production on those records (which make for great headphone experiences), and Jimi's voice. Indeed, Jimi's voice isn't going to win any awards for technical proficiency - but it has a great rhythm and phrasing to it. And 'Little Wing' and 'The Wind Cries Mary' are fucking beautiful songs.

Best starting album for someone who knows nothing of Hendrix?

Seems obvious, but Smash Hits? One of my first albums as a teenager.

I'd just start with Are You Experienced? and go forwards from there, to be honest.

Xp Yes, Smash Hits or Are You Experienced would be a good entry point.

cool--thanks!

love love LOVE LOVE Band of Gypsys. That record is a monster guitar album. Definitely my favorite of his. Favorite Experience record Electric Ladyland. the man could do no wrong. Would've aged finely and it's a real hole not having him around for 42 years.

It's very difficult for me to imagine what Hendrix would have went onto do had he lived... I imagine his output may have got more "soulful", but beyond that I can't really think of what he would have done. The idea of Hendrix in the '80s to me is just unthinkable!

yeah for better or worse he's kind of frozen in amber in that incredible 3 year period where there was a lot of change happening (some of which he was a catalyst for) but it's hard to see how he would've interacted with later changes. makes me sad thinking about what an incredible up-and-down exploratory '70s he could've had. or even how fascinating a polarizing Neil Young-type '80s would've been.

Mitch was indeed tremendous. If Jimi was a virtuoso (I dislike the term) on guitar, Mitch was a virtuoso on drums. And as much as I enjoy the BoG, Buddy Miles's pedestrian (by comparison) drumming always leaves me a little cold. Don't get me started on his (Buddy's) vocals, which is a whole 'nother level of annoying. I suspect Jimi felt the same.

I think for Jimi to have survived he'd have had to get his business affairs in order first. Assuming he could have somehow done that, he'd likely have taken a long vacation somewhere, without hangers-on, and eventually written a bunch of songs reflecting his gradually healing and rested self. Coming back to reality as a rock star and recording them, we may have heard some fairly mellow stuff, along with some very angry stuff. Beyond that, who knows. Even if he could have got the business entanglements sorted out, he probably liked dope too much to survive too long.

yeah Jimi had business problems but it seems like everybody had terrible contracts in the '60s and most of the big legends found their way out of that and made enough money in the '70s and '80s that it didn't matter. but i would like to think more importantly if he had lived that he'd still had some creative juices left and wasn't, as has sometimes been speculated, kind of losing his touch already at that point.

yeah for better or worse he's kind of frozen in amber in that incredible 3 year period where there was a lot of change happening (some of which he was a catalyst for) but it's hard to see how he would've interacted with later changes. makes me sad thinking about what an incredible up-and-down exploratory '70s he could've had. or even how fascinating a polarizing Neil Young-type '80s would've been.

― trinidad jokes (some dude), Thursday, November 29, 2012 4:58 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It certainly would have been interesting to see what Jimi would have done in the era of synthesizers, vocoders and drum machines - I don't think he would have went fully 'New Wave' but I feel that he probably may have ended up using them in some way!

his essence is so analog that i have a hard time even picturing him playing to something with a fixed BPM, he needed something loose like those mitch mitchell beats!

Oh yeah, I totally agree... that's probably the main reason I can't properly imagine a "Hendrix in the '80s" scenario! But I definitely think that, had he been around, he would have been taken in by the new technology like most vintage acts did in the '80s, as much as I can't imagine what he actually would have DONE with that technology!

Am I the only one in here who really likes his lyrics and voice?

no!

I think he was a great singer. I don't get why he's so often damned with faint praise in that respect, even by himself. Not much of a range, it's true, but his pitch is always bang-on and just as importantly, his voice had tremendous character.

and RHYTHM

As long as we're speculating:

In the 70s, he would have made some disco. Everyone did.

In the 80s, he would have played the Superbowl.

In the 90s, he'd have laid down solos on a million rap albums.

In the 2000s, he'd finally become a billionaire.

I'm picturing him instead of Snoop Dogg popping out of the sand in Katy Perry's "California Gurls"...Tried to find Bangs's posthumous interview online but couldn't.

hendrix's voice is one of my favorite things about his records. you've got this huge, overwhelming noise -- even the softer hendrix performances are somehow loud -- and right in the middle of it you've got this spacey stoner drawl. he goes quiet where another singer would scream and races his way through lines that most singers would linger over. sometimes he sounds droll and sometimes he sounds like he's in awe, like he can't help standing back from this incredible sound he and his band are making and shaking his head at it. i'm especially fond of the way he sings 'hey joe,' where he just hangs back for most of the performance, playing it cool, letting the band build up momentum behind him, until suddenly he just comes out with 'I SHOT HER!!!'

The craziest thing about Hendrix is all his music was done in 3 or 4 years at the most.

Am I the only one in here who really likes his lyrics and voice?
Not mad about most of the lyrics but yeah the voice is a big part of the appeal for me.

Pleased to see the love for Burning Of The Midnight Lamp itt.

ha i assumed this was bumped because of the army jacking off incident!

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/imagecache/750x970/documents/0803051jimi13.gif

"I motioned him to come over and witness what was happening. He took a look and then went back into the squad bay and started working again."

HA!

man, the army is so lame, you have to write a statement every time you see a guy masturbating?

'Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Just Fill Out Form AR 190-45'

i wonder if when hendrix became famous, sgt private james mattox would tell everyone at the bar that he saw that guy jerking it.

'Can You See Me (Jerking It In A Cubicle)?'
'I Don't Jerk Today'
'Third Cubicle From The Sun'
'The Wind Cries "Hendrix! Stop jerking it in a cubicle!"'
'Ain't No Jerking'
'You Got Me Jerking'
'Rainy Day, Jerk Away'
'Still Raining, Still Jerking'

Axis Of Jizz: Bold As Self-Love

i wonder if when hendrix became famous, sgt private james mattox would tell everyone at the bar that he saw that guy jerking it.

― tylerw, Friday, November 30, 2012 5:37 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"I knew he was left handed before I ever saw the guy play guitar!"

Are You Experienced (In The Art Of The Hand Shandy)?

"Hey James, Where You Goin' With Yo Cock In Your Hand..."

Hey Jim/Where you goin' with your dick in your hand?

xpost!

Hahahahahaha! Priceless! :D

New album of previously unreleased leftovers called People, Hell & Angels coming in March; Amazon has the following rundown:

Earth Blues: Totally unlike the version first issued as part of Rainbow Bridge in 1971, this December 19, 1969 master take features just Hendrix, Cox and Miles—stripped down funk at its very origin.

Somewhere: This newly discovered gem was recorded in March 1968 and features Buddy Miles on drums and Stephen Stills on bass. Entirely different from any previous version fans have heard.

Hear My Train A Comin’: This superb recording was drawn from Jimi’s first ever recording session with Billy Cox & Buddy Miles—the rhythm section with whom he would later record the groundbreaking album Band Of Gypsys.

Bleeding Heart: This Elmore James masterwork had long been a favorite of Jimi’s. Recorded at the same May 1969 session as “Hear My Train A Coming,” Jimi had a firm understanding of the arrangement and tempo he desired. Before they began, Jimi instructed Cox and Miles that he wanted to establish a totally different beat than the standard arrangement. He then kicked off this amazing rendition unlike any other he had ever attempted.

Let Me Move You: In March 1969, Jimi reached back to another old friend, saxophonist Lonnie Youngblood. Before he was discovered by Chas Chandler in the summer of 1966, Jimi had contributed guitar for Youngblood and such infectious rhythm and blues styled singles such as “Soul Food”.

This March 1969 session features Hendrix and Youngblood trading licks on this never before heard, high velocity rock and soul classic.

Izabella: In the aftermath of the Woodstock festival, Jimi gathered his new ensemble, Gypsy Sun & Rainbows at the Hit Factory in August 1969 with engineer Eddie Kramer. “Izabella” had been one of the new songs the guitarist introduced at the Woodstock festival and Jimi was eager to perfect a studio version. This new version is markedly different from the Band Of Gypsys 45 rpm single master issued by Reprise Records in 1970 and features Larry Lee, Jimi’s old friend on rhythm guitar.

Easy Blues: An edited extract of this gorgeous, free flowing instrumental was briefly issued as part of the long out of print, 1981 album Nine To The Universe. Now nearly twice as long, fans can enjoy the dramatic interplay between Jimi, second guitarist Larry Lee, Billy Cox and drummer Mitch Mitchell.

Crash Landing: Perhaps known as the title song for the controversial 1975 album that featured Hendrix master recordings posthumously overdubbed by session musicians, this April 1969 original recording has never been heard before. Jimi is joined here by Billy Cox and drummer Rocky Isaac of the Cherry People to record this thinly veiled warning to his girlfriend Devon Wilson.

Inside Out: Jimi was fascinated by the rhythm pattern which would ultimately take form as “Ezy Ryder”. Joined here by Mitch Mitchell, Jimi recorded all of the bass and guitar parts for this fascinating song--including a dramatic lead guitar part amplified through a Leslie organ speaker.

Hey Gypsy Boy: The roots of Jimi’s majestic “Hey Baby (New Rising Sun)” trace themselves to this March 1969 recording. Unlike the posthumously overdubbed version briefly issued as part of Midnight Lightning in 1975, this is original recording that features Jimi joined by Buddy Miles.

Mojo Man: Jimi lends a hand to Albert & Arthur Allen, the vocalists known as the Ghetto Fighters, whom he had befriended in Harlem long before he achieved fame with the Experience. When the two recorded this inspired, previously unreleased master at the legendary Fame Studios in Muscle Shoals, Alabama they took it back to Hendrix at Electric Lady Studios. Jimi knew just what to do to elevate the recording beyond contemporary R & B to the new hybrid of rock, rhythm and blues he was celebrated for.

Villanova Junction Blues: Long before his famous performance of this song at Woodstock, Jimi recorded this studio version with Billy Cox and Buddy Miles at the same May 1969 session which yielded “Hear My Train A Comin’” and “Bleeding Heart” also featured on this album. Never fully finished, the song stands as an example of the fertile ideas he hoped to harness.

Hmm, this looks pretty good...lotsa stuff I knew existed & wanted to hear for awhile, like the sessions with Larry Lee and the embryonic Band of Gypsys recordings. Not crazy about the album title though - the title's Hendrix's, the song selection sure isn't.

1989 Noel Redding letter about the Experience -- poor guy went broke and stopped playing altogether for a time, barely seeing any royalties from Hendrix records.

Redding's autobiography ('Are you experienced?: the inside story of the Jimi Hendrix Experience') is excellent.

my favourite hendrix song was the result of hendrix sacking redding and doing the bass himself. poor bastard

Ooh, found Redding's autobio to be pretty bitter and whiney imho

Fall, barometric pressure, just don't fall on me. :(

Enjoyed the American Masters episode last night. Hearing Hendrix speak was somewhat new to me. Sure would loved to have seen those first few Monkees shows.

Missed the first hour of it, enjoyed the 2nd hour.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/JHendrix_Lifelines.jpg

This collection of Hendrix from 1990 has to be the only collection of it's type that has a narration that goes along with song choices? There has to be toher classical, folk music or jazz music collections that has an audio narrative that goes along with the audio tracks, but I don't know of any. You will often see interview segments added as bonus tracks discussing the album or selection, but that is a different thing than what this Lifelines box set did.

I seem to recall hearing this documentary on the radio as I think they syndicated it out. It wasn't nearly as ubiquitous as that Beatles history radio show, but I am sure the popularity of that one may be why they tried it with the Hendrix material.

I have the Motown Story box somewhere, where various characters involved in the Motown, um, story, introduce various Motown cornerstones.

"the eternal myth revealed, vol. 1" is a 14-cd sun ra set with the same approach

Also the Library of Congress recordings by Jelly Roll Morton.

Also: postage stamps!

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/912eWg%2BbfFL._SL1500_.jpg

Man those are some far out stamps

Yeah, I always keep those stamps handy, for special friends only.
Amazon description of new collection coming out on March, usual three formats. Re this being in a "trilogy", I enjoyed the first two volumes mentioned here, so looking fwd:

Both Sides Of The Sky presents 13 studio recordings including 10 which have never before been released. All but two of these studio recordings were made during a fertile period between January 1968 and 1970. Jimi's mastery and use of the studio as a proving ground for new songs resulted in a growing collection of extraordinary material. This album completes a trilogy of albums [with Valleys Of Neptune and People, Hell & Angels] presenting the best and most significant unissued studio recordings remaining in the Hendrix archive. The songs include fascinating alternate versions of "Stepping Stone," "Lover Man" and "Hear My Train A Comin'" as well as recordings where Jimi is joined by special guests Johnny Winter and Stephen Stills. Both Sides Of The Sky was mixed by Eddie Kramer, the engineer for all of Hendrix's albums throughout the guitarist's lifetime, and produced by Janie Hendrix, Kramer and John McDermott.

Mannish Boy - The first ever studio session by the group Hendrix would christen as his Band Of Gypsys. Hendrix, Cox & Miles shared a love for the blues as this driving, uptempo reworking of "Mannish Boy" by Muddy Waters makes clear.

Lover Man - Just two weeks before their triumphant New Year's concerts at the Fillmore East in NYC [yielding both 1970's Band Of Gypsys and 2016's sequel Machine Gun], Hendrix gathered with Cox and Miles to cut this dynamic rendition of what had become a favorite concert staple.

Stepping Stone - A totally unique take on this Hendrix favorite, with Jimi showcasing both blues and country styled licks atop a relentless, galloping beat.

$20 Fine -Stephen Stills joined Jimi, Mitch Mitchell and Buddy Miles Express keyboardist Duane Hitchings at this September 1969 session. With Stephen handling lead vocals and organ, Jimi added multiple guitar parts to this rollicking Stills original.

Power Of Soul - This 1970 studio session came three weeks after the Band Of Gypsys concerts at the Fillmore East. While a live version remains one of the highpoints of Band Of Gypsys, Jimi never released a studio version during his lifetime. For this album, we present the mix that Hendrix and Kramer prepared of the complete song at Electric Lady on August 22, 1970.

Jungle - The influence of Curtis Mayfield can be heard here as Jimi expands on the "Villanova Junction Blues" theme he made famous by its inclusion in the 1970 Woodstock documentary.

Things I Used To Do - Jimi is joined for this rendition of Guitar Slim's blues classic by Johnny Winter. Jimi's trademark guitar work and Winter's deft slide playing weaves in and around the foundation set by bassist Billy Cox and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young drummer Dallas Taylor.

Georgia Blues - Jimi reunited with some old friends from his pre-Experience days. Lonnie Youngblood, with whom Hendrix played in R&B groups like Curtis Knight & The Squires, voiced this superb twelve bar blues neatly underpinned by Hendrix's sublime rhythm and lead guitar work.

Sweet Angel - With Axis: Bold As Love only just released, Jimi immediately turned his focus to recording what would become Electric Ladyland. This gorgeous, instrumental reading of "Angel,", features Jimi on guitar, bass and vibraphone joined by Mitch Mitchell.

Woodstock - Stephen Stills came to this session fresh from having visited Joni Mitchell, who had a new song that Stills was excited to try and record. Long before CSNY's version, Stephen, Jimi and Buddy Miles recorded this amazing rendition.

Send My Love To Linda - A superb new Hendrix original composition recorded with Cox and Miles in the aftermath of their successful Band Of Gypsys performances at the Fillmore East.

Cherokee Mist - Together with drummer Mitch Mitchell, Jimi created this moody, evocative original complete with his playing of a sitar to complement his traditional electric guitar.

Product details

Audio CD (March 9, 2018)
Number of Discs: 1
Label: LEGACY

holy crap

I liked Valleys of Neptune but the tracks on People, Hell & Angels were a little too raw; they basically felt like demos a lot of the time, missing the professional mixes, extra layers of guitar, etc. that finished pieces would have had. Looking forward to this one, though.

i do have to wonder.. what's taken them this long, if the stuff's any good?

i do have to wonder.. what's taken them this long, if the stuff's any good?

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand)

first off, there's stuff that's obviously being held back so as not to saturate the market ... hendrix fanatics have been clamoring for the "black gold" tape of acoustic songs for ages, but it's still being held back... second off is that once you quit the alan douglas approach of overdubbing obviously unfinished recordings, your alternate approach is to edit together various takes of unfinished recordings... which takes a hell of a lot of time. also, just finding the best stuff takes time, because hendrix recorded basically everything, much of which was not that great. kind of interested to hear what they're going to come up with for "send my love to linda", which is a song that had a lot of potential that was worked on during a number of sessions but not really completed.

and possibly it is specialist stuff. possibly "valleys of neptune" isn't that great a song, but i like it and i'm glad they finally managed to get the tapes into a shape where a releasable song came out of it.

That Sun Ra box set sounds like an interesting listen.

i once dreamed that i had found a bootleg of a jimi hendrix - roland kirk live session

"That Sun Ra box set sounds like an interesting listen.

― earlnash"

it is!

"i once dreamed that i had found a bootleg of a jimi hendrix - roland kirk live session

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand)"

there should have been one... hendrix was a roland kirk fan.

The only jazz muso I've found him jamming with (if this is indeed the participants claimed, and the guitars sound plausible enough; harder to tell about bass and drums), via recent email to a friend:
Oh yeah, may be old hat to you, but recently came across Jimi and McLaughlin jamming: first number is prob "Drivin' South", second might be "Everything's Gonna Be Alright", third is just Ye Olde British-American Blooze, but a spirited shuffle, not too bad of its kind, with Buddy Miles and Dave Holland mostly providing a metronome throughout this extended coffee break https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki5AfK0sFrs Overall, pretty cool!

As far as the purported trilogy goes, of course it is and is gonna be odds and sods; in his case, I don't mind hearing it all, whether I ever get around to a Best of The Rest folder or not.

The confusing release/re-release/reconfiguration/deletion etc. at least partially comes down to whichever heir has most recently grabbed the wheel; xgau's site is fairly helpful in sorting out a fair amount of all this stuff; I don't always agree with his (sometimes very brief)takes on the music of course, but he's made a good-faith effort.

the hendrix/mclaughlin jam is crap. his jam with khalid of space is far preferable.

Speaking of jamming with jazz players, yes how the hell could I forget Khalid/Larry Young, who played on Nine To The Universe?

This collection of Hendrix from 1990 has to be the only collection of it's type that has a narration that goes along with song choices?

― earlnash

just today i have been listening to the archival release from the avandaro festival which has armando molina doing the same thing. wild shit, btw.

For as many times as those later Hendrix recordings have been released, I'm kinda thinking the first two still might be the best ones with The Cry of Love and Rainbow Bridge.

Other than that you got the live shows and there are a few of them that are really worth hearing. Some of the later shows when his band was more of a looser conglomeration probably would benefit being curated down.

Yeah Cry of Love and Rainbow Bridge were two of the earliest and best (RB finally on CD a few years ago). Also, Hendrix In The West, released in '72 I think, was a party favorite of my gang. Band of Gypsies was different, really groove-strict here, cutting loose(r) there---both suiting the mood and vibe of wartime---but the much later Band of Gypsies 2 was more fluid overall, without getting too loose. Also liked Live At Winterland, Woodstock, Blues, Radio One, among other concert albums, but some of them were expanded later, maybe too much so, at least for home alone non-stoned listening

(Well Radio One wasn't a "concert album", it was his BBC sessions, along with the sequel, BBC Sessions.)

Dude! You hurt me! You hurt me in my heart!
― Sean Carruthers, Saturday, July 27, 2002 8:00 PM (sixteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

holy shit is this an accidental quotation of the Corgan/Thayil article

KPFA in Berkeley was airing this late night a few weeks ago, what I heard of it was just fantastic:

http://www.openculture.com/2016/12/hear-a-4-hour-radio-documentary-on-jimi-hendrix.html

just today i have been listening to the archival release from the avandaro festival which has armando molina doing the same thing. wild shit, btw.

― bob lefse (rushomancy), Wednesday, January 3, 2018 7:28 PM (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this appears to be the only mention of the festival on ilx, and also of the soundtrack 2xCD i'm trying to track down. do you actually have the discs or just files ? it's good ?

Damn, Mitchell was so funky
Love dem triplets on Hey Joe

At last, not dud after all.

our long national nightmare is over

I'm learning now that "parakeet" is not always equivalent to "budgerigar" in UK parlance

so by this point, the majority of the hendrix catalogue is live recordings and i came to the realization recently that i don't really know many of them outside of band of gypsys.

what would be the definitive hendrix live recording?

Jimi Plays Monterey (available under various titles) is essential. I really like Hendrix in the West, which was reissued on CD a few years ago with bonus tracks. There was a 4CD box called Stages that had one full concert each from 1967, 1968, 1969 and 1970 that's also pretty good.

The best (concise) live release is Live at Winterland IMHO, or if you want something with more breadth, the box set for Winterland too. The film Jimi Plays Monterey is also essential because it's a great visual document of a great show (albeit short - the setlist is barely over a half-hour long). If you're a really big Hendrix fan, you'll probably get more because he was so often great on stage (and both Stages and Hendrix in the West are excellent too), but I'd definitely start with Winterland and D.A. Pennebaker's Jimi Plays Monterey film.

One slight caveat about Stages is there’s what sounds like added/overdubbed crowd noise on the 1970 set. Fortunately, that got a standalone release as Freedom: Atlanta Pop Festival

And not all the concerts on Stages are complete; a couple songs were cut from the 1970 Atlanta show.

awesome, thanks for your input guys. gonna check some of these out for sure!

I actually don't know a whole lot about Stages, that one came out before I really got into Jimi, and I don't know how available it is, but the 1970 show from that set is pretty widely available as Freedom: Atlanta Pop Festival.

Live at Monterrey (KILLING FLOOR!!!)
Atlanta Pop 1970 (HEAR MY TRAIN A COMIN'!)

+ Ryko's

Radio One (later expanded)-BBC Sessions
Live at Winterland

Ryko did a nice job on these back in the day and they sold a boodle of them.

Stages is pretty expensive to find now, it was not in print long as it came out right before Reprise lost the rights.

If you run into it cheap (doubtful), but that Experience box set has a nice mix of excellent live tracks.

I listened to this a ton in my teen years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_(Jimi_Hendrix_album)

Try In the West too. If only for the version of little wing that he plays. A good little intro to Hendrix live.

Seconding (Thirding?) In the West, that's a great one. If you really dig Band of Gypsys, the Songs For Groovy Children box from a few years back is really killer.

That purple Experience box is great, as earlnash noted, but I had no idea it was hard to find. I found a copy for $22 at Half Price Books in 2019.

I didn't go to the purple Experience box for the live stuff as much as for the unreleased studio jams, especially the studio Band of Gypsys material and the long jam(s) with Larry Young.

https://www.discogs.com/Jimi-Hendrix-Experience-Paris-1967-San-Francisco-1968/release/5539113

i have this and enjoyed it.
the experience were really on fire.
and in the second show on here, buddy miles swaps with mitch mitchell to play the drums, which is very cool to hear, just cos its quite different to what he did with hendrix on BOG. buddy miles gets a bit of an unfair rep with many hendrix fans, and on the BOG stuff, he def was quite repetitive, sturdy to the point of metronomic at times, but you cant dismiss his work with hendrix entirely as he played on some of the best songs on electric ladyland.

i do like billy cox, and i def appreciate what he brought to hendrix, something very sturdy, a bit deeper, and sometimes just mean and lean low end, but other times, i think he was a bit anonymous. noel redding obv had his own flaws, but he had a wilder style, which IMO, fit hendrix better. im not sure trying to sound 'grounded' was that good for hendrix. my favourite stuff on the BOG/fillmore east shows, is actually hearing the BOG take on old experience songs (some of the new songs are good, machine gun obv, but a lot just arent complete, and sound tentative, which is also why ive never found the first rays of the rising sun songs that satisfying), and bringing something totally different to it.

Re: Woodstock, it's actually a disappointing set for me, so much that I eventually sold off the expanded reissues because I rarely listened to them. The Woodstock movie may be disappointing musically-speaking (the long running time compounds the uneven quality of the musical numbers), but it's pretty great in terms of filmmaking and Jimi's part makes a great ending. I got my Blu-ray copy for like $8, so it can be found for dirt cheap prices. I also prefer the original soundtrack album mixes over the later remixes used for the expanded reissues, and I believe Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab reissued both soundtrack LP's on CD back in the day. Again, I thought the music was very uneven, so I just burned the Hendrix numbers on to my own CD-R. In total, his portion runs about a half-hour long, and a few tracks were edited down for those LP's, but I don't mind. Between that and his appearance in the film, that's all I've really wanted to revisit from his Woodstock performance.

The BBC stuff is great, but both Rykodisc's Radio One and the expanded two-CD set from the Hendrix family are plagued by fake-stereo processing (and excessive compression in the case of the latter). I wish someone would reissue that set from flat mono sources without messing with the sound.

tbh it was just the first live set I heard, probably the only one that was available at the local sam goody at the time or something, so it was the one I listened to a lot when I got into hendrix. Izabella is still a favorite.

https://100greatestbootlegs.blogspot.com/2020/01/jimi-hendrix-la-forum-1970-flac.html

I just wanna talk to you
I won’t do you no harm

Another add: the Rainbow Bridge soundtrack---concert music in the movie recently got its own release, but have long made do with the likes of moon power instrumental "Pali Gap," still one of my faves in this whole universe, even though I've long since stopped shrooming. Also "Dolly Dagger," one of his girlfriend tributes, and I used to live in a room full of mirrors
All I could see was me
Then I take my spirit and I smash my mirrors
And now the whole world is here for me to see
Now I'm searching for my love to be, Hey!
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!
All right
A broken glass was solvin' my brain
Cut and screamin' crowdin' in my head
A broken glass was loud in my brain
It used to fall on my dreams and cut me in my bed
It used to fall on my dreams and cut me in my bed
I say making love was strange in my bed
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!

What was ILM like in 2001? Ironic? I started posting here in 2005 which I can assume was a continuation of those days but I can’t really remember myself. I just know every time one of these old threads pops up the first post(s) usually call these canon musicians a dud.

It was like a troll farm back then.

"Ironic" isn't the term I would use to describe those posters. "Contrarian" and "blinkered" are a better fit. À chacun son goût and all that, but many Old ILM mainstays were consistently wrong about pretty much everything.

Voodoo chili (slow Return)

How could I have never heard “51st anniversary” until today? Damn

Seems like maybe Mitchell was the secret weapon on those early albums, his groove is ridiculous

For sure

Mitch Mitchell > Dino Danelli >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ginger Baker

Didn't Ginger Baker slag off Mitch Mitchell too? Though what drummer didn't he slag off?

Been re-listening to his work since it's now on YT. Electric Ladyland specially.

Yup: “Mitchell was a journeyman. He was hopeless.” On Hendrix when he first sat in with Cream: “I wasn’t impressed at all.”

https://www.loudersound.com/features/ginger-baker-interview-an-afternoon-with-the-worlds-most-irascible-drummer

xp

LOL he was such an irredeemable dick

Though what drummer didn't he slag off?

Ginger Baker, funnily enough, who I always thought the most lifeless and unimpressive of the classic rock drum virtuosos, Fela collab notwithstanding. If you thought he seemed a prick in that documentary, give his autobiog a read - the most self-pitying and pathetic junkie bullshit, allied with an egotism his playing never earned, and an orneriness he should never have been able to get away with.

Mitch Mitchell was an endless joy. Even on the few weak JHE tracks (thinking specifically She's So Fine off Axis), there he is, embroidering the humdrum and every day with easygoing and undeniable magic.

Sad that he never did much else of note, other than failing an audition for Wings.

I really liked Cream's singles, but at least within rock music, he rarely put his much-vaunted technical prowess to effective use. The more he tried to show off, the more he betrayed a lack of taste and judgment. Maybe he was better on his jazz records, but I've never felt compelled to investigate.

Love Mitch Mitchell. I didn't really follow his career after Hendrix, but looking him up on Wikipedia, it says he was semi-retired from the mid-'70s on. To be fair, it's hard to see how he would've topped his work with Hendrix. I guess it's rare that a great drummer in a truly great rock band continues on to become the right drummer in another great band. Bill Bruford did that with King Crimson after Yes, but otherwise the list seems mighty short.

I saw the Ramatam s/t album out in the wild today. Any good?

Ginger played as though he was using hammers instead of sticks.

Toad? Turd morelike.

Baker's best stuff came late in his career — the first Ginger Baker Trio album and what I think was his final release, Why?, are both good. I also like the album he did with Peter Brötzmann and Sonny Sharrock, No Material. He wasn't amazing but he could be put to good use in the proper context.

No Material was the first or second CD I ever bought, credited to Baker: a live rave-up with Brotzmann and Sharrock, yeah, also guitarist Nicky Skopelitis and bassist Jan Kadar (of Das Pferd(---all I can say about Baker is that he fit right in, which is no small thing. Another show eventually appeared, Live in Munich 1987, also cred to Baker alone (didn't know about that one 'til unperson mentioned it---thanks again!). Both performances are available on one CD/MP3/stream, under the title of the first release: https://www.amazon.com/No-Material-Ginger-Baker/dp/B00A9V1QYY/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1464022599&sr=8-18&keywords=ginger+baker

Let us be honest, Baker's opinions are not out of the realm of many musicians in the "jazz" world to anything not of that place. The dude wanted to be thought of a level with musicians like Art Blakey or Tony Williams. That said, he seemed to have a taste for a lifestyle way beyond your usual jazz purist would be able to afford, which means he had to mercenary whore out. And his general volatility probably steered many musicians who could have perhaps utilized his talents to not seek him out.

Thing I got from reading on Mitch Mitchell was that really everything else he got into seemed pretty crap after playing with Jimi and others just wanted him for the Jimi connection so he hung it up. The lifestyle also was not too good for him.

Out this year! Looks like it might be good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Forum:_April_26,_1969
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix_posthumous_discography

I can't think of many jazz drummers who have been integral parts of a truly great rock album and a truly great jazz album (not counting "fusion" albums that can be categorized as both). Connie Kay is the only one that comes to mind at the moment (Van Morrison's Astral Weeks, Modern Jazz Quartet's best albums particularly Dedicated to Connie)

Forgot, Connie Kay even played drums on Big Joe Turner's "Shake, Rattle and Roll"!

I was thinking maybe Brian Blade - he's been on great jazz albums, but he's never really been on a great rock album except for Time Out of Mind, where he's actually one of THREE different drummers (four if you count Winston Watson's drum loop), and whenever he's played, it was also with Jim Keltner on the same take.

mitch is so good

idk i think it have must been hard after locking in so beautifully with jimi (and noel) to get the same kind of, uh, motion? with anyone else

like there’s lots of great musicians but that combination of clockwork mechanical interlocking parts fitting perfectly combined with that shared-brain courage & intellect to go wherever the music goes … you can’t get that just walking into rooms of dudes

and then to perhaps question if you were only good ~with~ him or people like baker shittalk you having any abilities at all

idk its weird, i guess because obv there are joyrnemen players who can lock in with anyone too

v weird later-life it must have been for mitchell

VG otm. And while it's true that there are session players who can lock in with anyone, it's rare that session players get beneath that surface and actually consider the song itself, if that makes any sense. If you're Dylan's drummer, locking in with bassist Tony Garnier is one thing, but playing with a certain understanding of "Key West" (for example) is another thing altogether (and Charley Drayton does both brilliantly).

… you can’t get that just walking into rooms of dudes

It's funny because that's essentially what happened with the Experience. Only two drummers auditioned (Aynsley Dunbar lost the coin toss), and Noel Redding showed up thinking he was auditioning on guitar for a new lineup of the Animals.

and then to perhaps question if you were only good ~with~ him or people like baker shittalk you having any abilities at all

I would hope that Mitchell didn't take Baker's comments to heart (especially since Baker talked shit about everyone). It really is a shame that Mitchell never found another situation he could flourish in, and I refuse to believe that those situations didn't exist. I mean, listening to "Third Stone From The Sun," Mitchell handily eclipses ALL of his UK "jazz"-drumming contemporaries -- why someone like, say, John McLaughlin didn't try to work with Mitchell is a mystery.

v weird later-life it must have been for mitchell

I can't attest to the accuracy of this story, but some years ago on a Massachusetts message board someone posted about having worked on a loading dock in eastern Mass in the '80s. A new coworker showed up one day, they got to talking, and he noticed the new guy's English accent. The new guy said, "Hey, my band's playing tonight, you should come check us out." So the guy goes to a small bar that night to see his new coworker's band...and it's Mitch Mitchell. The guy was floored, and the next morning, Mitch was back at the loading dock.

Mitchell obviously didn't get publishing money (not having any songwriting credits), but also at the time apparently wasn't getting mechanical royalties. This was during the lengthy period when Hendrix's estate was in something of a shambles, and control hadn't yet reverted back to Jimi's dad Al.

It's amazing how propulsive his drumming is, especially on the Hendrix ballads - he's busy, but it's never too much. He even keeps something as amorphous as "1983..." mobile and active.

to further VG's point, when you've played in a band and on albums that are among the small handful that truly changed rock music forever, you're never going to find anything that comes close.

Elvin Jones played on Allen Ginsberg's awesome Songs of Innocence and Experience which isn't really a rock album of course, although it's got the fearless spirit of jazz and rock (Don Cherry's on there too). Buddy Miles was not a great drummer, but effective w Band of Gypsies, Electric Flag, Carlos Santana, and on McLaughlin's Devotion, an inspired (and perhaps Alan Douglas-edited)one-off: not "fusion," as I think of it, which tends to have too many rules.

The original Tony Williams Lifetime (with or without Jack Bruce) was also post-/para-Miles pre-fusion jazz-rock or jazz x rock.

very pleased to see all the Mitch love here

hal blaine has a sorta jazz background, played w/count basie but don't know if that was that significant or if he appears on albums

I knew he met Count Basie, didn’t remember him playing with him.

ah i saw something that he played in one of his bands on wiki but either way i'm probably trying to puff up his jazz background to fit the premise, doesn't seem like he was a real player or anything

very pleased to see all the Mitch love here

Seconded!

when you've played in a band and on albums that are among the small handful that truly changed rock music forever, you're never going to find anything that comes close

Are you suggesting Fat Mattress don't measure up to the Hendrix records?

There was something Blaine wrote about encountering Basie in Vegas maybe and being surprised that Basie knew who he. To which Basie replied “with all the drums that you play, Hal Blaine?” Don’t recall whether that was before some kind of gig they were playing.

Web record reviewer CapnMarvel had some harsh critique for Buddy Miles in his review of Live at The Fillmore East:

These drumbeats may be metronome-steady, but that's only because the man is doing nothing on the drum kit. His fills are so simple they're funny, besides being badly timed. The man plays leaden 2-4 snare hits so much you wonder if a bomb would go off and spread dead hippie parts for 3 miles around if he didn't keep bashing that TWO FOUR TWO FOUR TWO FOUR!!! Don't forget the ride cymbal!!! FUCKING RIDE CYMBAL!!!! Those aren't 8th notes he's beating on that fucker, he's just whacking it as fast as fucking possible, just to keep that irritating fucking swish noise happening for 2 hours straight. Jeee-zus! I mean, I've heard bad drummers before: Simon Wright of the 80's AC/DC, whoever played drums for the Runaways, but to match such an awful drummer to Jimi Hendrix is like putting tricycle wheels on a Ferrari. Jimi is really hampered by this fool.

Blaine had a fairly high profile in Vegas, especially for a drummer. He had a large kit, but his name also appeared on the Caesars Palace marquee (he was in Nancy Sinatra's band) -- unless the drummer was the bandleader, the drummer's name did NOT appear on a marquee in Vegas (or anywhere else).

Wikipedia (and Variety) sez Blaine played in the Basie band in the '50s. Not sure if it was a one-off/substitution situation or what.

xp

Don't forget the ride cymbal!!! FUCKING RIDE CYMBAL!!!! Those aren't 8th notes he's beating on that fucker, he's just whacking it as fast as fucking possible, just to keep that irritating fucking swish noise happening for 2 hours straight.

I'd hate to play a Sunny Murray album for this guy.

If you have access to BBC iPlayer, highly recommend this documentary about the making of Rainbow Bridge. Features an amazing array of hippies straight out of an issue of Eightball, and includes an archive interview with Mitch Mitchell who looks incredibly dapper and would make a convincing Radio Two DJ. Apparently the live sound was so abysmal at the Maui outdoor performance, Mitchell went into the studio and recreated all his parts by playing along to the film footage - incredible precision!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001fqf7/music-money-madness-jimi-hendrix-live-in-maui

Apparently the live sound was so abysmal at the Maui outdoor performance, Mitchell went into the studio and recreated all his parts by playing along to the film footage - incredible precision!

Yeah, there's some discussion of this in the liner notes to the recent Live in Maui set, which I bought. (Here's the thing: he only played along to the songs that were used in the movie, so there's a very noticeable change in the sound of his kit from song to song on the CD, which contains all the music from that day.)

VG otm. Mitchell is all-time.

FWIW I don't like Baker at all. True, he approached drums differently from other people, but not in a way I will ever enjoy or wish to emulate. Much of the time he isn't even musically attuned to an ensemble sound; he's just off on his own project.

Not so with Mitch, whose drumming was always appropriate in context.

Hate Baker's horrible clunky drumming on the Blind Faith album.

(Here's the thing: he only played along to the songs that were used in the movie, so there's a very noticeable change in the sound of his kit from song to song on the CD, which contains all the music from that day.)

The thing is, the sound of his kit is the only way you’d know his parts were overdubbed. There isn’t the slightest hesitation in his playing, no second-guessing of any of his choices, and no clumsy collisions. It sounds like he just put himself in the mindset of, “Right, I’m playing a Hendrix gig,” and went for it.

the thing that i love about Mitch & Noel is that they are so often playing ~with~ Hendrix, weaving around what he does to create real grooves

like, i know us music nerds love them & we all know that but i dunno if they get enough credit for that out in the world. Experience was a legit band, and not just 2 dudes putting down a nondescript/workmanlike bed for jimi to go off
which is maybe how they’re seen culturally ie not seen? idk

i love them, anyway, is my point

I had no idea Aynsley Dunbar auditioned with Hendrix. That's an interesting theoretical pair. He's one of the few jazzy rock drummers from that era that I would put on an equal level with Mitch Mitchell, just an absolute monster.

I suspect he would've been too much of a big personality to fit in. Mitchell seemed pretty self-effacing, thus avoiding the trap Cream fell into where all three members were the leader (or thought they were). Does make me think of an alternate world where Mitchell played on Whitesnake's "1987" album instead of Dunbar though.

Far be it from me to stick up for Eric Clapton but, from what I can gather, pretty much all of the problems in Cream were down to Bruce and Baker.

Maybe. Clapton has other charges to answer wrt Cream though…

I’ve got agree with this commentator:

I never understood how Eric, who really loved Johnson and James, could be part of regular massacres of Crossroads and I’m So Glad.

Had to dig around to find some more detail on the Hal Blaine/Count Basie thing, which gets magnified a lot.
https://www.pas.org/about/hall-of-fame/hal-blaine

“I’ll never forget when we worked at the Waldorf Hotel in New York City with the Count Basie Band,” Hal recalled. “Count’s drummer, Sonny Payne, had gotten sick and yours truly got to play the gig. I knew most of the charts, and now there I was, kicking my favorite big band. It was every drummer’s dream in those days. Count Basie even offered me the job of a lifetime. I was flabbergasted. But I explained that Tommy’s job was my job, and I couldn’t think of leaving the group.”

I'd figure many have seen it, but there is quite a bit with Hal Blaine in that movie "The Wrecking Crew" that goes over his personal highs (living very large in Vegas back in the Sinatra days) to back to a working slug who cannot get a paying drumming gig. Pretty wild.

I can't think of many jazz drummers who have been integral parts of a truly great rock album and a truly great jazz album (not counting "fusion" albums that can be categorized as both).

Hmmm...I can't come up with many classic jazz drummer examples (Tony Williams with Public Image Ltd, although Ginger Baker is also on that, lol). But some modern ones - Mark Giuliana on Bowie's Blackstar, and Nate Smith on the Brittany Howard album. Karriem Riggens should count for his work on rap and r&b albums. Chris Dave on D'Angelo, Me'shell Ndegeocello, and Maxwell on the pop side and Robert Glasper and Kenny Garrett on the jazz side.

Justin Brown from Ambrose Akinmusire's band is now a member of OFF! (punk band formed by Circle Jerks singer Keith Morris and Burning Brides guitarist Dimitri Coats).

oh shit! wow I think they are coming through in a couple months, I saw them on the first tour and it was fantastic.

that reminds me that Thundercat is (was?) in Suicidal Tendencies

I asked him about that when I interviewed him for The Wire...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FknoLJ4WQAA5XTB.jpg

He left ST in 2011

Remember Soft Machine played with JHE A LOT. Seems like Wyatt and Mitch were of the same dna.

Robert Wyatt thought so.

talking of the soft machine, i watched that kinda boring rainbow bridge documentary recently and mitch popped up on that as an interviewee sat in front of a console and for a moment i thought it was andy summers, not just looks-wise but the exact same demeanour

Doubtless Baker was a total prick but would rep for the album he did with Fela and the Masters of Reality album he was on (*Sunrise on the Sufferbus*).

Re the question of what great drummer has played on a great jazz record and a great rock record, Jordan's recent Rolling Jazz post may be a great answer---I loved Mark G. on Blackstar, as previously cited by Jordan upthread, but hadn't heard enough of him on the Donny McCaslin Group's own albums, for instance, to know if he'd played on a great jazz record, although I enjoy what I do know by McC.'s crew:

I'm listening to Mark Giuliana's album from this year, 'the sound of listening', and liking it way more than expected. He's always been a great drummer, but I don't think he's had a great (solo) record until now. Love the sonic palette of the group and the electronic interludes.

― change display name (Jordan)

Paul Motian playing Woodstock with Arlo Guthrie was an unexpected story that I picked up from the documentary about him.

I found another jazz drummer in a rock (blues) context that fits in where this discussion was going.

I enjoyed a documentary on Paul Butterfield and it got me curious on his records after the first two. I’ve had the first two and enjoyed them for literally 30 years now but never heard any of his later music.

I got one of those Original Album Series and was checking out “Pigboy Crabshaw” and thinking the drums were really groovy and sounding great. The drummer for that later Butterfield group was Phil Wilson who has a pretty heavy duty Jazz resume.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Wilson

Thought it was an interesting nugget to come across.

he plays drums on julius hemphill's "dogon A.D."!

Ran into a Hendrix cd lot on the Bay at a good price, so got a bunch of the recent live remasters in a single shot, including a couple I never had before.

So for the last three weeks I have been on a pretty big dive into Jimi James.

First, for all the crap his sister and they get, I do have to say that Eddie Kramer has done a good job using modern tools to get pretty lush mixes out of these 60s recordings. Cheese ball marketing and some of those studio demos probably should have been left on the shelf, but these live recordings are fairly well done.

Miami Pop 68 was a new one for me and it is one of the tighter Experience performances.

Forum release is much better sounding than the Reprise one from 90s. Got to wonder how much software used, even if remodeled it is fairly seamlessly done. That was a good show anyway.

Atlanta Pop I had before and parts of it I always thought was some of my favorites, especially that ‘Here My Train A Coming’. I’ve got it planned in my head to listen to it and Allman Brothers Atlanta Pop as road trip soundtrack some long drive this coming summer.

Berkeley I had before but never caught me as a great show, as he had some tuning issues but in this few listens - I Have to admire opening the show basically developing material on stage. That Machine Gun with Mitch is pretty hot. I Don’t Live Today is grebt.

Winterland (highlights single disc)…I always really liked the old Ryko disc, but this single disc is all killer and no filler. Sound was good but this one is excellent. I’d say a definite recommendation to check out.

This always happens in movies, and I guess most people don't notice, but it can be distracting for me when they take a poster of a Jimi Hendrix exhibit from 1992 (with the kind of art and design that screams '90s) and use it in a scene that happens in 1980.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq0LycNDU8o

New box set coming in September:

Electric Lady Studios: A Jimi Hendrix Vision 3 CD/1 Blu-ray Box Set

Electric Lady Studios: A Jimi Hendrix Vision is the latest in-depth project from Experience Hendrix, encompassing 3CD/ 1 Blu-Ray of previously unreleased music Jimi Hendrix recorded at his newly created recording facility in 1970. The deluxe box set offers 39 tracks (38 previously unreleased) that were recorded by the new-look Experience (Billy Cox on bass, Mitch Mitchell on drums) at Electric Lady Studios between June and August of 1970, just before the legendary musician’s untimely death the following month.

The project also includes 20 newly created 5.1 surround sound mixes of the entire First Rays Of The New Rising Sun album plus three bonus tracks [“Valleys Of Neptune,” “Pali Gap,” and “Lover Man”]. The Blu-ray includes the critically acclaimed, full-length documentary Electric Lady Studios: A Jimi Hendrix Vision. The film chronicles the creation of the studio, rising from the rubble of a bankrupt Manhattan nightclub to state-of-the-art recording facility inspired by Hendrix’s desire for a permanent studio. Directed by John McDermott and Produced by Janie Hendrix, George Scott and McDermott, the film features exclusive interviews with Steve Winwood [who joined Hendrix on the first night of recording at the new studio], Experience bassist Billy Cox, and original Electric Lady staff members who helped Hendrix realize his dream. The documentary includes never-before-seen footage and photos as well as track breakdowns of Hendrix classics such as “Freedom,” “Angel” and “Dolly Dagger” by recording engineer Eddie Kramer. The package includes an extensive booklet filled with unpublished photos, Hendrix’s handwritten song drafts, and comprehensive liner notes.

DISC ONE (CD):
Ezy Ryder [Alternate Mix]
Valleys Of Neptune [Alternate Version]
Straight Ahead [Takes 1 & 2]
Drifter’s Escape [Takes 1 & 2]
Astro Man [Takes 9 & 10]
Astro Man [Take 14]
Drifting [Takes 1 & 2]
Night Bird Flying [Take 25]
Farther Up The Road
The Long Medley [Astro Man / Beginnings / Hey Baby (New Rising Sun) / Midnight Lightning (Keep On Groovin’) / Freedom]

DISC TWO (CD):
Earth Blues [Alternate Mix]
Dolly Dagger [Takes 17 & 18]
Angel [Take 7] 7/23/70
Beginnings [Take 5]
Lover Man
Tune X / Just Came In [Take 6]
Heaven Has No Sorry [Demo]
Freedom [Take 4]
Valleys Of Neptune [Demo]
Come Down Hard On Me [Take 15]
Dolly Dagger [Alternate Version]
Messing Around [Take 17]
Tune X* / Just Came In [Take 8]
Drifting [Alternate Version/August 20, 1970]
Freedom [Alternate Version/July 19, 1970]
Belly Button Window [Take 1]

DISC THREE (CD):
Dolly Dagger [Mix 2]
Night Bird Flying [Alternate Version]
Freedom [Alternate Version/August 20, 1970]
Midnight Lightning / Beginnings
Straight Ahead [Alternate Mix]
In From The Storm [Alternate Mix]
Bolero / Hey Baby (New Rising Sun) [Alternate Mix]
Drifter’s Escape [Alternate Mix]
Astro Man [Alternate Version]
Bleeding Heart [Alternate Mix]
Drifting [Alternate Version/November 20, 1970]
Room Full Of Mirrors [Alternate Version]
Angel [Alternate Version]

DISC FOUR (BLU-RAY):
Documentary - Electric Lady Studios: A Jimi Hendrix Vision
Freedom
Izabella
Night Bird Flying
Angel
Room Full of Mirrors
Dolly Dagger
Ezy Ryder
Drifting
Beginnings
Stepping Stone
My Friend
Straight Ahead
Hey Baby (New Rising Sun)
Earth Blues
Astro Man
In From the Storm
Belly Button Window
Pali Gap (from Rainbow Bridge album)
Lover Man (from Jimi Hendrix Experience box set)
Valleys of Neptune (from Valleys of Neptune album)

man I dig me some Jimi but I already have New Rays and Valleys Of Neptune, can't fathom why I would ever need this

There have already been so many Experience Hendrix compilations going over these same sessions, even if these are unheard alternate takes.

Yeah, I agree. I wish they'd release a compilation of all the Band of Gypsys studio recordings, including the Hendrix/Larry Young/Buddy Miles jams. That stuff is scattered across, like, four compilations and a boxed set, and you could get it all onto two CDs easy.

I think they finally are running out of stuff. About the only thing that is out there and not out is the Albert Hall shows but I think they are in ownership limbo.

what about the Sotheby's Axis Outtakes? "Jazz Jimi Jazz" etc

I want a full set of acoustic stuff.. that never happened did it?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P701paKEMXs/hqdefault.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P701paKEMXs/hqdefault.jpg

Thanks or the vid, brinstead, and an acoustic collection is an intriguing idea!

The unreleased demo/album Black Gold is all acoustic.