Madness: Classic Or Dud?

It helps that their singles were, invariably, wonderful. So uber- classic, without doubt.

Mike Barson = much overlooked and undervalued songwriter/musician.

Which song would that be ?

The most critically underrated band I can think of, right now.

I can only echo what Nick, Tom and DG have said.

Did I mention that it's supposed to be a concept album about madness?

I actually can't stomach their cover of this. Labi Siffre's original is just so immaculate.

But they have many good singles (especially Our House), and I am a Two-Tone fan in general.

My overall answer to the original question is obviously HUGE CLASSIC! First favourite band ever, yes!

Rise and Fall is a beautiful LP, to be sure, and quite unexpected in the context of their career.

My favourite is "Seven". By then, they had slowed down a little and started writing a larger number of sophisticated songs. At the same time, there was still some left of their ska roots, and they didn't sound that much like a typical Langer/Winstanley thing. "Grey Day" is the best song they ever wrote IMO.

That being said, "Rise & Fall" was a great album too.

the back catalogue is chocka with some drop dead classics.

i'd add my vote to rise and fall and 7.

but then this was my 1st fave band .. and remained so for many many years. i still love em despite rarely listening to them these days. though the forthcoming ska based album sounds like it could be fun.

extra spooky, since i watched the greatest hits dvd and 'take it or leave it' with the band/director's commentaries on just the other night.

gosh.

i always assumed the band was effectively powered by chris/lee/mike

never expected The Boy to leave the gang first after Barso returned ..

I just saw them over the weekend. I had no idea they were in the states and touring.

They were outstanding!

i love madness. i really fucking love them. why do i never listen to them these days?

Every time I listen to them (which isn't nearly often enough) I keep thinking I should listen to them more. Then I don't.

These guys sucked

Tory turncoat scum, the lot of them.

They are Tories because.......??

I mean, if all traditional typical English working class culture is Tory these days, then the future of Labour seems black if Labour has to rely upon the votes of immigrants only....

stick to the music geir. Please.

then the future of Labour seems black

Is this a Norwegian pun?

Anyone who says "dud" is the nemesis of fun,

They played at the 50th birthday party of the Conservative Party treasurer. They had a choice.

I've been waiting for this from Dom for years. Strange, this moment just arrived now.
And naturally, Dom's wrong.

There isn't a great deal of fun in the later works of Madness.

If you are speaking post-comeback, no.

Dom is Rong. Suggs was good on the Paul Morley thingum last night. Last couple of Madness albums (pre split) were bleak in places, but still great records...

You feeling Suggs as a Virgin Radio drivetime DJ, big man?

I'm feeling killing Suggs for those twatting fish finger adverts.

Shows you how bad that Morley thing must have been if Tory Suggs was the best he could manage.

Is he out as a Tory or are we just running an exciting McCarthyite witchhunt? Which I'm totally cool with by the way.

Presumably, Madness' agency booked them for the gig, so it's more about "were they violently opposed to whoever it was" as opposed to "are card carrying tories" right?

Suggs, the Madness frontman, chaired a special Question Time for local teenagers at Camden Town Hall earlier this week as part of Local Democracy Week.

Over 50 teenagers from schools and youth organisations across Camden fired questions at a panel of Councillors representing the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats parties. Among the topics covered in a very lively discussion were education funding, leisure facilities, voting for 16 year olds, anti social behaviour, environmental issues and how relevant politics was to ordinary people.

Tory Suggs commented that the party gave them an opportunity to see "how the other half lived."

But they took the thirty thousand pieces of silver and THEY HAD A PRINCIPLED CHOICE

Oh I didn't read upthread. OK cool Tory Scum. Ban.

they are pay cheque whores though aren't they.
they have always moaned about how during their peak years they were all broke and got ripped off by Stiff (though having 7 members in a band is always going to make the money a lot less per person) and always go on about it via little digs here and there (video commentaries), so i'd suggest that this was just a way to earn a few extras.
as for the music - well i still think that Wonderful is just that.
I hate the Party Pleasers a lot, but as i stated ago up there ^^^ i still love this band.

xpost : oh fair enough. they are tory twats.

The sight of Suggs gurning and doing his jerky dad-can't-dance dance in a Phil Jupitus cast-off big loud suit, singing Cecilia on TOTP in the mid 90s still haunts me for some reason.

Morley was right though, My Girl wasn't a bad song.

Tracey Ullman's version is better though.

i would listen to suggs drivetime djing if he did not play anything off their playlist.

Madness represent archetypical North London Cockney culture, and I guess for some people that is automatically Tory as it is so typically English in a traditional way.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7201/geirbotee0.jpg

Geir, you're a moron.

Madness represent archetypical North London Cockney culture, and I guess for some people that is automatically Tory as it is so typically English in a traditional way.

-- Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 13:14 (17 minutes ago) Link

http://www.freewebs.com/gutman/sabo2.JPG

"This is a chemist not a joke shop"

Does anyone have any ill-informed opinions about Norway they'd like to get off their chest?

As regards the thread title, total Classic.

Having written the likes of Return of the Las Palmas 7, Our House, Embarrassment, One Better Day and House of Fun, they can be forgiven a bit of middle-age toryism, if indeed that is the case. There must be a thread somewhere about the political skeletons in one's record collection...

I enjoyed the Paul Morley programme, by the way, and I found Suggs' contribution thoughtful and insightful.

they can be forgiven a bit of middle-age toryism, if indeed that is the case.

is there any more evidence of middle-age toryism on their part than rote Marcello witch-hunting? i don't think its cool they played that gig. i also don't think it makes em tories, or invalidates their previous activism/writing.

What's Marcello got to do with all of this?

http://www.mdk-design.com/images/blog/guyincognito.png

Phil O'Donnell morelike

What's Marcello got to do with all of this?

*frowns*

xp EXACTLY dom

It'th a mythtery.

Anyway all middle aged Tories should be rounded up and shipped to Kenya, same as the rest of them. Especially traitors like Madness and their domed Cameron-loving audience.

Guy Incognito OTM

SUCKS morelike

No, I meant your last comment was on the money, "Dingbat".

In a 1979 NME interview, Madness member Chas Smash was quoted as saying "We don't care if people are in the NF as long as they're having a good time."

And then they recorded "Don't quote me on that" as a comment on that, um, Quote.

I'm waiting for that ARE MADNESS RACISTS?! thread. Will be great fun!

You know what's really pretty "One Better Day".

Watching them play "The Sun And The Rain" was a highlight of my Glastonbury 09 experience.

People don't really talk about "Return Of The Los Palmas 7" though do they? It got into the top 10. Think about that for a mo. A self-consciously cheesey instrumental muzak cha-cha-cha that isn't really designed for dancing like "One Step Beyond" was. It just quietly rounds off "Absolutely" - an afterthought. It's as if Blur had released "The Debt Collector" and it had got really popular. I wasn't really around at the time to witness it charting, but was this considered weird practice at the time?

Return of the Los Palmas 7 didn't seem weird at the time. Perhaps because they had previously had a hit with an intrumental and another semi-instrumental but more likely because in the UK pop charts, novelty is king and you never know what form it's going to take. Madness were on Stiff Records - an indie who would take chances that major record labels might not.

Coincidentally, Absolutely and 7 were reissued today in 2CD deluxe versions.

I had Absolutely on vinyl when I was a kid.

In hindsight, Las Palmas was a stroke of genius, but at the time it seemed, to (13-year old) me at least, a huge mistake and not what I wanted the world to hear off Absolutely.

Why a stroke of genius, and why a huge mistake Daniel? The reason I ask is I'm writing a piece at the moment which refers to the track, but only being semi-consciously aware of it at the time and being unable to find much about it online other than Stiff wanting another instrumental following the success of One Step Beyond, I'm interested in hearing personal recollections. To me it's the sound of street parties (royal wedding was about this time right?) but then again, I was still in nappies in 1981 so I doubt I'd even have been conscious of it.

Stroke of genius, because I now (obviously) recognise that there was much more to Madness than the "nutty sound" and ska. TROTLP7 now sounds ambitious, witty and fun, and in terms of their career it consolidated their position as a band that set its own rules and simply had a good time. The song doesn't look in any way out of place in the Madness canon.

Back in 1981, though, I loved Absolutely and there were seemed to be so many other strong candidates for singles to follow up Embarrassment and Baggy Trousers. I couldn't believe it when I heard that TROTLP7 had been chosen as the single - I was gutted.

Firstly I was a Madness fan so why couldn't they release a single that, as far as I was concerned, sounded like Madness?

Secondly it was quite cheesy, and when you're a serious kid the last thing you want is 'cheese' even if it's done knowingly.

I was also in that ska mindset whereby it was a disappointment when the bands from that scene produced anything that wasn't ska, especially so when it was a single and the rest of the world would hear it and may even mistakenly believe it to be ska.

Worth mentioning, just looking through the tracklisting of Absolutely, that there weren't that many songs that could reasonably be described as ska on it!

No they moved away from the ska thing very early on, but then first impressions and big hits will prevail. (thanks Daniel). Thinking about it, The Specials appeared to be moving in a similar direction as Madness at the time, More Specials also moving away from ska to a kind of eerie/cheery Zirkusmusik. All those Bontempi tango rhythms on tracks like International Jetset, the purposefully cheap-sounding end-of-pier organ sounds are a parallel to ROTLP7's fun-in-the-sun cha-cha-cha, both bands displaying this perfectly English creeping melancholy.

They're such a slippery band for me. I always liked their singles, as simple and overplayed as they were, but was also struck by how sophisticated the album cuts were. Absolutely finally arrived a couple days ago. It's only their second album and they had already largely left the "nutty" sound far behind, and had more in common with The Kinks, The Jam, Squeeze, Elvis Costello, etc. On the other hand, while the deep cuts have great lyrics, their lack of hooks sometimes leave my mind wandering and I have to go back to re-listen because I hadn't remembered what I just heard. I get in a Madness phase once every few years since the 80s, and I'm still not sick of them. Absolutely is nearly as rewarding as The Rise And Fall... and includes a cracking live BBC concert on disc 2. I probably should go ahead and get 7 too.

looking forward to getting these 2 cd editions.
the one they sorted out for OSB last year had a great Peel session.
weird how Mad Not Mad is not going to be given the same treatment though as for all the over production involved (drum machines !), there are a couple of cracking songs, and the singles had some lovely remixes (Yesterdays Men especially ..)

Mad Not Mad deluxe is out now. Lots of extra content and still not gone through the liner notes or dvd which both look like they should be pretty good.

Suggs talks his fave albums:

http://thequietus.com/articles/07068-madness-suggs-13-favourite-albums-bakers-dozen

given i know the how some of the folks @ tQ rates the ex-nutters, this is an unexpected surprise.

oh, and for gods sake, not another bl**dy reissue/repackage set.

who on earth needs that new boxset ..

surely their stuff is one of the most rereleased/revised catalogues in modern times ?

well i never.

this is a very different cover art than i'd ever expect from the band !

http://blog.madness.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/OuiOuiSiSi_Cover460.jpg

and not only that, but this remix by andrew weatherall is fucking ace :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AStzMJZEsVw

i may have to forgive them for the queen/olympic shyte at this rate ..

Take It Or Leave It in full here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhwdhRQ9ZC0

The second side of 'Absolutely' is extraordinarily good. Especially this song, in 7/4 time no less:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gzW909ev9k

Drunkwatched a bunch of their videos chronologically the other day*, and yes I love this band very much. And as mentioned in thread, the trove of deeper cuts is insane as well. (yes, "White Heat"! "Mr Speaker"! yes, side 2 of Absolutely!)

*) is Madness videography watching thread a viable thought?? maybe not, I dunno

also I've been a bit obsessed with the Take It or Leave It film since then.

can't think of many better acts to watch a videography of (until the late 80s of course)

I heard Johnny The Horse quite unexpectedly the other day and it stopped me in my tracks, I had forgotten how poignant and terribly sad the lyrics were.

As are many many Madness songs to be fair ..
Check out Time For Tea.
Seriously dark
(Kids playing hide and seek and suffocating in a fridge)

*) is Madness videography watching thread a viable thought?? maybe not, I dunno

i recommend watching the DVD with the commentary on, very dry and hilarious

are you coming with me is another dark gem, about a friend of theirs succumbing to drug addiction. and blue-skinned beast is all about dead soldiers coming home from the falklands in body bags.

This is pretty dumb, but I'd nearly forgotten that such things as "DVD with commentary" are a thing. Must hunt down one of those, yes,thanks for tip!

Cosign the DVD commentary

Been revisiting Madness - singles are still great, but in terms of albums, the debut One Step Beyond... was the masterpiece for me. I actually couldn't get into Rise and Fall - though I appreciate the lyrics and ambition, musically a lot it just didn't work for me. I'll hang on to it and revisit it again, but at the moment, some of it sounds overly arranged with very little that's melodically engaging. "Tomorrow's (Just Another Day)" and "Our House" were excellent though.

I realised a few months ago that The Sun & The Rain is one of my favourite songs, full stop.

Rise & Fall has always been my favourite, though latterly Keep Moving has definitely creapt up to neck and neck. The Liberty Of Norton Folgate is absolutely their 21st Century masterpiece, and I think it stands up there with their very best without any caveats, the title track especially. Indeed, I think the post-reunion albums have been incredibly strong, and packed with deep cuts. When I was working on the reissues last year, stuff like this absolute gem would regularly get lodged in my head, and refuse to shift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO1B2YxNgNc

The Sun & The Rain is absolutely one of their greatest. I used to sing it to my daughter at bed time - it's magnificent.

I realised a few months ago that The Sun & The Rain is one of my favourite songs, full stop.

A few years ago I also realised this

Were I to able to compile such a list, then a top 50 song ever of the all times

.. and from reports of their show in halifax last week, it still is featured in their live sets.

My first true musical love as I'm sure I've said here and elsewhere; I do believe a part of the appeal was how they seemed (truthfully or not) to be a nactual ~gang~ (yknow like the Beatles appear in Hard Day's Night etc).

A few years ago I read some biography, and loved a bit about their particular deal/model for songwriting royalties: Half would go to the credited writers/composers of a song, half would be split equally between all seven, the premise being that arrangement was about as important for success as words + melody.

An especially good deal for Chas, there.

A few years ago I read some biography, and loved a bit about their particular deal/model for songwriting royalties: Half would go to the credited writers/composers of a song, half would be split equally between all seven, the premise being that arrangement was about as important for success as words + melody.

Strangely, this was pretty much the Band's split as well, but not as well-known (hence the myth that none of them except Robertson got much in the way of publishing royalties)..

An especially good deal for Chas, there.

Co-wrote "Our House"! And others. In fact, after Mike Barson left, he was virtually the main songwriter in the band.

Yeah, Chas has songwriting credits all over all of their albums, certainly more than Mark (who nevertheless wrote my favourite Madness song), and as Tom says, really stepped after Barson left.

stepped up.

Yes, but I’d imagine he did far less practical arranging on other members’ songs than the ppl who played instruments?

(Suggs obv wrote scantily, but there’s a lot of interpretation in his phrasing / enunciation / application of ineffable Suggsitude)

Speaking of that, it seems to me that over time, Chas increasingly took on himself a role as custodian of ther Madditude – yes, in particular in combo with Suggs – the "grinning malevolence" that they have (quite rightly I think) identified as their true spirit. I just rewatched the Julian Temple live video thingy from the Norton Folgate era; early on there's a segment with the two in a graveyard in the night, which felt like a reference to the "It Must Be Love" video, where Carl and Lee spring forth to take measurements of Suggs as he stares into a grave (itself quite a striking, dark detournement of the line "I never thought I'd miss you half as much as I do").

Yes, but I’d imagine he did far less practical arranging on other members’ songs than the ppl who played instruments?

Smash played trumpet.

(Suggs obv wrote scantily, but there’s a lot of interpretation in his phrasing / enunciation / application of ineffable Suggsitude)

Suggs wrote tonnes of Madness songs! Two songs on the debut, seven songs on Absolutely (inc Baggy Trousers), four songs on 7, five songs on Rise & Fall, five on Keep Moving, five on Mad Not Mad, three on wonderful, four on Norton Folgate, three on Oui Oui Si Si, five on Can't Touch Us Now...

The Julien Temple thing circa Norton Folgate was very much Chas's idea.

(ta for keeping the thread honest stevie, and apols for hasty posting on zing - I mean that the others play on nearly every track, vs less-frequent trumpet, and Suggs wrote less than a frontman is often assumed to do... ofc the range of writing credits, and variety of writing collaborations amongst members, is one of the most remarkable and admirable things about the group!)

Yes, everybody contributed to the songwriting ... and wrote (or co-wrote) good songs!

*hands out menus* are you ready to order?

I misquoted above, it was "comic malevolence", not "grinning". More fitting, not quite as sinister. This level that is perfectly possible to ignore and only see the fun surface, without there being anything wrong with that.

Madness have this in common with another of my favourite bands: Stump, which are also clearly Not For Everyone. I totally get why one might be allergic to what can be perceived as mere gratuitous zanyness and unwarranted quirk; but for me, as I've mumbled on here on occasions, I find Mick Lynch a fantastic lyricist, employing a multitude of poetic means to give real character to different songs, not least that which could be called "comic malevolence" ("Chaos" could have been written with that phrase in mind). It was a massive YES. MAKES SENSE. THANK YOU moment for me when I read in the recent Whatever Happened to the C86 Kids? book that he was a huge Madness fan.

I also just recently realized (and yeah I know this is the kind of thing that aging guys always go on about with the Beatles etc) that at the release of The Rise and Fall, Suggs had not yet turned twenty-two. Yikes.

Track from the new record, v Barzo sounding (to me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EmfBzpefz0

That is indeed a Barso song.

My two faves off this are Suggs's ones, the opening Theatre Of The Absurd, and If I Go Mad. The latter really reminds me of Mad Not Mad-era b-side Call Me, which I always loved.

while they rarely step out of their comfort zone these days, they really know how to present themselves now.
their online/video/social media presentation has been fantastic for years.
oh, and had to really dig deep to find 'call me' (disc 3 of 'the business') !
not sure i have ever heard it before, but yeah, its clearly from the MNM era.