Zappa - C/D

He's kinda the Ween of his time, I think. I don't hate Ween near as much as I hate Zappa, but maybe it's only because they're funnier.

I finally broke down and bought Freak Out because it's so, y'know, canonical. 'S pretty entertaining for its time; good satirical stuff which at that juncture certainly needed to be said. I think it's great to have a fellow like that around throwing tomatoes. Not sure who the contemporary equivalent would be; certainly not Ween. Maybe Kid606 or something actually. Of course, I hate Kid606.

I have Hot Rats which is a largely instrumental/jam record that is actually quite good; none of the short, knotty arrangements of the early Mothers stuff and none of the sanctimoniousness. Whatever is in this record has made me curious about checking out more, but I've never done so. "Willie the Pimp" featuring Beefheart is just a plain scream.

Anyway, for all the hubbub surrounding this guy, he strikes me as pretty harmless. No doubt the legend outweighs any real contribution - beyond the expansive diaspora of sidemen - for whatever strange reason. And it is strange that he's so well known; we're talking about a guy whose only stab at the pop world was "Valley Girl". What a bizarre record, and people bought it! It was like "Loser" only ten years earlier! Anyway, he captured a certain zeitgeist and it sold.

On the sidemen tip ... Little Feat. Stone classic. First album is one of my favorite seventies records.

I've only ever owned a couple of Zappa albums in my day, but the ones I have I'm pretty damn fond of. Witness my thread:

Frank Zappa's JOE'S GARAGE: Classic or Dud?

(Watch me close, and you'll catch me saying this about ten million different songs.)

Like Diamond, I'm not familiar with the man's entire catalog. But that is a patently ridiculous statement. Something about what little Zappa I have heard hurts my ears, but that does not translate to my hating rock and roll.

I know, I know... hyperbole and all that.

if theres one song to download its 'Magic Finger'

Like a genre unto himself, Zappa has done everything and dabbled in so many different styles of music that to condemn everything he's ever done seems like sort've a hugely sweeping statement.

I also knew these dudes in college who were way into Zappa. And, unfortunately, they did like him for his jive-ass humor. "Going to Montana" and all that stupid shit. It's like Monty Python or something; you have to be a pot-smoker and/or arrested adolescent to really dig it. So that really put me off him for many, many years.

But like so many artists, he really shouldn't be dismissed out of hand despite his many gaffes.

Hahaha...okay, fair enough.

I agree -- sometimes Zappa's clever-clever humour hampered my enjoyment of his work, but the guy was definietely someone whose vision and ability I respect. He was also a great guitarist to boot, if that sort've thing matters to you.

So, much as Diamond asked me to explain why I don't like him, I'd like someone to outline why they do.

In any event, the appeal of JOE'S GARAGE to my thirteen year old ears lay in its bizarre, cautionary narrative of censorship and governmental oppresion (being a recovering Pink Floyd fan, I had yet to tire of the overwrought notion of the 'concept album'), its shamelesly potty-mouthed and prurient sensibility (song titles included "Why Does it Hurt When I Pee?", "Crew Slut" and "Catholic Girls") and its trippy instrumentation (I'm still blown away by the Hendrixian middle-finger solo, "Toad-O Line," which hijacked the central melodic figure of Toto's cloying "Hold the Line" and turned it into something entirely more complex and dizzyingly intriguing).

I remember buying the tape (and IT'S ALIVE by the Ramones) the day I got home from camp and playing them both endlessly. Still love it to this day.

as for zappa, for me at least his heavy handed sense of humor has always been the major stumbling block, though their definitely interesting moments for me here and most of Freak Out is pretty listenable (with exceptions).

I want an explaination of why you like him that's as least as coherent as my explaination of why I don't like him. Preferably moreso.

And don't give me that "he's a good guitarist" crap. That's a defense for Joe Satriani, too.

But, as the great man himself said, this is all just about a useful as dancing about architecture.

Alex, you're the #1 contributor to this forum. I don't believe for a second that you really believe that.

I don't actually believe it, but it seemed like a timely and appropriate opportunity to whip out that by-now-well-worn cliché.

I'm not really the #1 contributor to ILM, though, am I?

Oh, I know, right? Wouldn't that just be the best/worst thing you've ever seen?

"I call this next one..." [dramatic pause] "...Chrysler Building."

[begin interpretive art-deco dance]

haha .. this is great, cuz for whatever nutty reason I actually gave a spun to Garcia, the first Jerry Garcia solo album, tonight. It's fantastic! Especially the second side. Total musique concrete weirdness. It's one of those records where, if the Wire had any balls, they'd use in a "Invisible Jukebox" with someone who would hate it if they had the crutch of context. You know, ask some priss what he thinks about the first Jerry Garcia record. "oh, it's fantastic, wonderful stuff!"

Wire hack: "Well surely that would be Himuro! Yes I too sometimes weep for the glory days of Worm Interface. Wotta great record!"

IDM d00d: "Oooh .. this is very hip-hop! I quite like it, yes! It's quite afro; very well done."

Wire hack: "It's a FUNKSTÖRUNG remix, surely"

IDM d00d: "Surely it is"

{Wire hack puts on first Jerry Garcia record}

IDM d00d: "Brilliant Craic! Luv it mate!"

Wire hack: "it's the first Jerry Garcia record"

*shotgun*

Yes, the Acid Tapes are choice...

That's how I remember the drunken conversation, anyway. There was also the how-dated-is-he question and the what-do-you-really-like-about-him demand. I had to answer these questions while, like, drunk.

I suppose the best I could come up with is that he's a composer. I love his guitar solos, I love his Mothers stuff, and I love his composed-for-rock-band stuff. I love his sense of humor. I love the fact that he did "Stairway to Heaven" note for note in concert until the guitar solo, when the horn section came in. He composed this stuff -- even the cover songs he does -- with great care. He knows where he wants the weird sounds to go and he puts them there.

I could say a whole lot more, but none of this will convince you, Kenan. That's fine. None of this convinces my downstairs neighbor, either.

*I find him kitschy.

>>> Yeah.

*I find him gimmicky.

>>>Sometimes, maybe a lot, actually. I tend to like gimmicks.

*I find that he meets almost none of my requirements for good music.

>>>Well, there ya go.

*He just shits on everything -- good taste, restraint, the world in general.

>>>Not true. I'll give you the part about good taste; I find pockets of his stuff unlistenable. But I can offer as an honest-to-god-homage-to-the-blues "Directly From My Heart To You" from Weasels Ripped My Flesh. Restraint? When FZ restrains himself, he is at his worst. The world in general? He shits on that? I think he viewed that as his fucking job.

*Where's the music?

>>>Huh, good question.

*Where's the part that supposed to touch me in any way other than on some pure intellectual, ironic level?

>>>The guitar solos??? I don't see how a guitar solo could be ironic or purely intellectual. You gotta put yer fingers right THERE on the fret when the finger with the pick is wobbling over here for the tremolo. And the feedback, man, the feedback! You must explain to me how this is "ironic" or "intellectual."

*You can combine the two, you know.

>>>I am open and willing to listen to a lot of things things that you might suggest that combine these two things (which I take to mean "music" and "intellectual").

*I mean, maybe YOU know, but Zappa didn't.

>>>No, I really don't know. And I don't know either if Zappa did. But I'll listen to his stuff over Ween any day.

Regards...(and no offense or anything, really)...

It's shocking how little I know of the man's work, given that I publish a fanzine which puns on his name.

Zappa was a pastiche artist. And smug about it. As a satirist, he doesn't make it at all, since you have to have some real emotion--rage or disgust, usually--to produce same. As a rip-off of 20th-century music he's laughable--it's like he discovered that music was "weird" in high school and wanted to shove it down our throats forever, while maintaining his love for '50s r&b (his one true love). As a guitarist he's done some, ahh, FAST shit but how this translates into IDEAS is frankly beyond me...two bars of Hendrix is worth all the wank that Zappa did his whole career. He did some interesting stuff with the Synclaiver toward the end of his career, but it's not something I care to listen to. His "compositions" have a certain Saturday-morning theme-show thing going for them; as do many people, I kind of enjoy "Hot Rats" as a good example of easy-listening. He fucked up "Trout Mask Replica." His "ideas" about American life/culture are as banal as they come. He's a pernicious example of L.A. fake-populism (really, contempt for humanity) at its absolute worst. The only stuff that holds up at all was done about 1966, like "Brown Shoes Don't Make It" and parts of "We're Only in It for the Money," which my eighth-grade history teacher used to play for us, along with Seals and Crofts, when he wanted to show us how the counterculture used to be.

Am i missing something?

What's god-awful about it? No gee-tar solos, or just the fact that it was recorded thirty-five years ago? Also, "Chaki," try to have a sense of humor and/or proportion about all this, it's just Frank fucking Zappa we're talking about here. I also dig "Afternoon of a Sexually Aroused Gas Mask" and "Idiot Bastard Son," if that makes you any less dyspeptic. Zappa music used quite well in scene in the great '60s flick "Medium Cool," by the way.

I didn't realize she had made a record.

''He fucked up "Trout Mask Replica."''

from a beefheart doc I have seen the line was that the magic band went in the studio and did a live album (it took them four hours) and Don made zappa push the buttons and that's it.

When Beffheart told zappa that the alb was done Frank was astonished but beefheart just said ''its done!''.

S: "Carolina Hard-core Ecstasy", "Flakes", "Joe's Garage", "San Bern'dino", a guitar solo or two.

i do need to get sleep sometimes, chaki ;-) but since i've been summoned ...

look, if someone doesn't like Frank Zappa (or any other musician), that's their prerogative. some have said that they don't like Zappa's music because of some quality of the music (i.e., Mr. Sinker doesn't like his voice and thinks the music is boring); some don't like it because of his lyrics (which, admittedly, aren't for everyone's tastes). all of that's fine AFAIC.

anyway, Zappa himself said that even his fans would find something in his body of work that they'd dislike. which is fair, because of the sheer volume and variety of his body of work. i guess i'm fairly conventional among Zappa freaks, in that i prefer his pre-eighties stuff (i think that he was in a bit of a creative slump from ship too late to save a drowning witch onwards, and didn't get back on track till broadway the hard way) -- though i'm a little more fond of the seventies stuff than some are. fwiw, i prefer Zappa's more pop/mainstream-friendly stuff (i.e., the seventies stuff) to Beefheart's more pop/mainstream-friendly stuff, but that's more because i'm not a big blues fan (and clear spot-era Beefheart sounds to my ears like blood sweat and tears or the doobie brothers; i prefer Beefheart when he's being a weirdo).

unlike the foregoing, though, superficially it's hard to think of anyone that really picked up the mantle from Zappa, going in directions where he pointed. except for the obvious choices like Primus or anything that Mike Patton is involved in, the only real obvious choice would be Ween (another love/hate proposition for many folks). but the Zappa influence on other pop/rock is there, if you listen for it and have heard enough Zappa to know what to listen for -- certainly in Parliament/Funkadelic (George Clinton was a huge FZ fan) and in stuff that P-Funk influenced (yes, including Dre and Public Enemy); also in some Krautrock (Can, esp.). but even in other less-obvious sources i can hear an echo or two -- i.e., i think that if he were alive, FZ would be a big fan of the Neptunes.

just my two cents for now.

but i am feeling too uncranky to finish this quotation as fact (and grammar) demand!!

Out of curiosity, Tad, what specifically do you think FZ would have liked about the Neptunes?

Things I don't like about Zappa: the toilet humor; overlong guitar solos; his singing (particularly when he's doing the mock 'doo-wop' stuff), but I think he knew that was an Achilles heel, so he hired better people to do that; his laughable defense of his own smoking while condemning drugs; in a sense, he painted himself into a corner with his smart-ass persona, in that there's a general sense of emotional distancing in his work

Random moments of Zappa that were/are/always will be classic:
- "Her favorite band was...Twisted Sister" (instead of "Her favorite band was...Helen Reddy") on an 80s version of "Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me"
- Juxtaposition of "My Sharona" riff with "But people say now he's mature..." in "Rhymin' Man"
- The first time I ever heard "Wowie Zowie"
- Swaggart re-write of "What Kind of Girl" on Broadway the Hard Way
- Brass arrangement of Jimmy Page's guitar solo for "Stairway to Heaven"
- Spine-tingling Supremes parody on the conclusion to "Duke of Prunes"
- "Truck Driver Divorce" (before the boring guitar solo kicks in)
- Angus O'Reilly O'Patrick McGinny (or whoever the hell he was) and his poems
- Brother A. West's monologue (so great, I memorized it and use it extensively whenever I dress up as a preacher on Halloween)

The only other Zappa that I can listen to and it isn't my favorite by any stretch, is the first two Mother's albums "Freak Out" & "Absolutely Free". They are definitely pieces of their time, which can be a good or bad thing, depending on how much you like late 60s rock.

"Willie the Pimp" is cool and definitely aided by having Capt. Beefheart on vocals. It is a song worth searching, if you want to find one to check.

I've heard more Zappa records from the mid-70s to 80s, but none did much for me other than as a joke. The lone exception is "Jazz from Hell", which is an interesting listen, especially if you like music like Steve Reich. It is a weird synclavier machine music record. the synth sounds are kind of dated, but the sequences are still pretty weird. I checked it out from a libary.

you don't like zappa, you don't like echo and the bunnymen, you diss kraftwerk and KISS, you went to Penn State (and not Rutgers) and you like crud like Good Charlotte and Lame Pipsqueak ...

... mr. miccio, yer the anti-me! :-)

Wha? Where can I find this?

Well, he's right!!

that's from "THE BEST BAND YOU NEVER HEARD IN YOUR LIFE"

Why is it when I hear about these sorts of things that I can only hear Peggy Noonan saying, "Oh, Frank..."

You don't appreciate Zappa. Fine. Let's move on.

It seems, from talking to people about Zappa in particular, that whatever album(s) you picked up as a teenager remain these odd personal favourites that most of your friends won't really get. Could apply that to many artists, I suppose, but Zappa holds the crown.

Yes, the live volume is good, for starters. "The Illinois Enema Bandit" is the kind of thing I like but which is part and parcel of the Zappa thing that others hate. "Punky's Whips" is also quite fine but it also helps to know what it's about, which was a pic of Angel's lead guitarist one of Zappa's bandmembers used to masturbate over.

On "Burnt Weenie Sandwich," "Directly from My Heart to You" is a great number and performance, although he didn't write it.

Really? I thought that was a joke.

"I hear he's more fluid than Jeff B-e-eck."

But George, my version of BWS doesn't have "Directly from My Heart to You" on it!

and: "one size fits all" is his greatest moment..

Aha George - I just dusted off the Zappa section on the old shelf - and there lies "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" - looks like it's gonna be a Zappa afternoon.

"little house..." spot on - pretty amazing and only clocks in at 18:41. And that violin solo from Sugar Cane Harris is wild, wild, wild.

Q: If i dig the doo-wop tracks on BWS, is "Crusin' With Ruben & The Jets" essential?

I liked "Zoot Allures" quite a bit which was FZ heavy metal. The live recording with Beefheart in the Armadillo capitol of the world, too, cracks me up woth its jaunty manner everytime I listen.

How is that new bio?

It is significant that at least two members of the Velvet Underground have gone on record that Frank is a bummer. John Cale said he didn't like Zappa because he thought Zappa just didn't really like music (this from a man who, as part of his musical performance, once wielded an ax on a table at Tanglewood and then later on a chicken, wherever that chicken incident took place ), Sterling Morrison said something like "have you ever heard of somebody waking up in the morning and singing, humming, snapping their fingers or tapping their toes to a Zappa tune? No you haven't, you can't do it, it's impossible." Now maybe you're going tell me their real beef was that they shared a label with the Mothers and the Mothers got the lion share of the label support, but so what. Maybe that's why they said it out loud but not why they thought it.

The guy was both too lowbrow and highbrow for my taste, a classic outflanking maneuver. His non-yellow-snow-eating followers luckily get to enjoy, upon purchase of one his masterpieces, an immediate jump-up of several levels in musical prestige, like people who buy Sting records.

I seem to remember Zappa saying is that if he had his druthers, he would never hear another II-V-I chord progression again. This "cliched" progression is pretty much the basis of jazz, but it was too boring for the Big Mother, as Xgau called him.

For an account of what it is like to audition for the great man, and come up against the famous "black page" go here

Oh yeah, just to prove I'm open-minded, I do like Ruben and the Jets. "Stuff Up the Cracks" is a great song.

After you got back from Africa, you auditioned for Frank Zappa, didn't you?

Yeah. He came and heard a band I was in in Tampa. Sat through two sets of our show, paid us some great compliments. I said, "If you're ever looking for a bass player, give me a call." A few weeks later, he called me up and asked me to come out to Los Angeles to audition. And he gave me "The Black Page," much to my amazement. It was this incredibly, complexly notated piece of music that he actually wanted me to sight read, and that was how he was going to evaluate my playing. I don't do too well eleven ledger lines above the bass clef, with a seventh-note figure above it, so I told him I'd have to work on it a little bit, and he said, "Well, we need somebody who can read fast. Next!" So I didn't get to play. And that was after driving out to L. A. from Florida. So that was a real heartbreaker. Tears ran down my cheeks. [Laughs.]

"Cover your daughter in choc-o-late syrup, strap her on again, oh bab-ee..."

Or something like that. The melody sticks, the words are icing on the cake.

my guitar wants to kill your mama
village of the sun
take your close of when you dance
magic finger
san'berdino
you are what you is
eddie are you kidding?
dirty love

Ken L, Lou Reed is also on record as absolutly hating Zappa/Mothers.

the answer's actually REALLY easy (if still surprising) ... i practically gave the answer away in the question, if you think of it.

So why did Lou Reed induct Zappa into that Music Hall of Fame thingy?

Sure, but can you sing all the dotted 32nd notes correctly and reproduce the lightning xylophone runs? I didn't think so. Next!!

Freak Out!
We're Only In It For The Money
Uncle Meat
Hot Rats
Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Over-Nite Sensation
Apostrophe
ONE SIZE FITS ALL
Sheik Yerbouti
Joe's Garage

Absolutley Free
We're Only in It for the Money
Lumpy Gravy
Just Another Band from LA
Hot Rats
Weasils Ripped My Flesh
Live at the Roxy and Elsewhere
ONE SIZE FITS ALL
Sheik Yerbouti
Joe's Garage

;)

also relevant to this, i think if a lot of people who hate zappa were presented with a mix of his strictly instrumental stuff, they'd be pretty blown away. i made one of these mixes once, but i lost it. i'll have to reconstruct the tracklisting sometime.

I've also had Apostrophe and the Strictly Commercial comp at some point.

I'd like to hear a strictly instrumental selection of Zappa's best stuff. Somehow I've avoided those Shut Up And Play Yer Guitar comps, as I've been certain they wouldn't represent the best instrumental stuff, like on Hot Rats, Burnt Weenie etc. Roxy & Elsewhere is great if you dig One Size Fits right?

Now that I understand Frank's trauma, THE HEALING CAN BEGIN!

*except for Billy the Mountain

Btw, 200 Motels is incredible, both the soundtrack and the movie. And if u watch it and enjoy it you'll want to watch it several more times just to see if you can understand what's going on.

Missing Persons?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andymurkin/Resources/MusicRes/ZapRes/Fame.html

i forgot that i had posted that question!

Someone should tell the guy with the webpage who Doc Pomus is.

What kind of keyboard is that at the beginning? Is that a Rhodes? It sounds modified in some way.

Okay, I have a crazy Zappa nut friend who buys everything the trust puts out, even the crazy 4-disc MOFO version of Freak Out! Well, he sent me a copy of last year's Greasy Love Songs, which is the remastered proper version of Ruben & The Jets, and I have to say it's turned me around on what I thought was one of the "meh" Mothers albums. It's brilliant.

One of my favorites. I found a copy of the original vinyl in the early 80s, so I had several years with the proper instrumentation before I had to deal with the Barrow/Wackerman parts.

I've been listening to FZ's compositions a lot lately, but not FZ albums -- putting together a compilation of Zappa's work performed by various big bands and small chamber groups.

That compilation sounds really cool.

Wondering what to make of the forthcoming Zappa reissues. Series starts tomorrow with a set of 12 up to Just Another Band From L.A.
Set seem to have an odd mix of remasters from original tapes and the mixes Zappa himself did before he died, some of which I thought were derided.

There is a rundown here http://gandsmusic.com/ZappaCD1.htm that seems to be accurate about sources.

Hoping that the ones that I want from the next batch are original master based. Have heard that only 1/3 of the reissues are from the tapes though.
But that may skip Hot Rats which seems to be based on a previous vinyl remaster if I'm reading things right.

That's some bullshit. But I'm guessing they're putting out these particular mixes so as not to cut into sales of the Zappa Archives ones that have already come out (MOFO, Lumpy Gravy, Greasy Love Songs, etc).

should be Lumpy Money in that post.

Cruising With Ruben & The Jets

2011 transfer of the 1984 digital remix - yes, that one!

what the fuck, nooooooo

time to buy Greasy Love Songs.

Good info to know. It kinda sucks that they couldn't do vanilla editions of the O.G. Freak Out! & Cruising... ala bare bones dvds sharing shelf space with Criterion/Special Editions of same. If somebody wanted the bonus tracks bad enough, they'd spring for the Archives titles.

Thanks for that - I'd been wondering what the provenance of these new issues would be.

Nobody rushed out and bought them then? Want reviews before i think of picking up several.
Though most of the ones I was thinking of are the next batch the Bitches Brew-alikes and possibly the 2 lps after them.

Thinking I might plunk for Hot Rats & maybe Absolutely Free from this batch. Do have the old Rykos of the mid 60s Mothers stuff. had been thinking of picking up the Threesome vol 2 box which had all the jazz ones from this era together until I found out they'd been deleted.
They're not likely to redo a set like that are they?

All the ones I'm excited for are in the second batch. Never was a huge fan of the classic Mothers records, though the live shows from Beat The Botts are swell.

But it might all change when I see them in the stores tomorrow. Might weaken a bit and pick up Weasels.

beat the botts? How bout boots?

Forgot Weasels, only got the older cd version of that one.
& not sure about date now, Amazon had it down as 30th of July. Read elsewhere that new cds come out on tuesdays in USA. & where that would leave Ireland I don't know, wondering if these will appear locally.

i'm not a zappa expert --- what are the Bitches Brew-alikes? sounds intriguing.

Grand Wazoo has some shades.

I just can't see or hear Bitches Brew as a point of comparison.

I get this low-boiling anxiety and helplessness when I learn that someone who I respect likes Frank Zappa; it's weird. It's this sense that what the person considers "music" is something totally different than what I do--that what they engage with when they listen to things that come out of speakers is just this totally different, alien thing. I find Zappa completely and utterly impenetrable and unrelatable--not musically, but emotionally/intellectually. I understand exactly what Cale meant when he said he doesn't think Zappa actually likes music. Zappa makes me feel empty inside.

So you would say the answer is...dud?

Haha, there was some undercaffeinated oversensitivity happening there, but yeah, one of my all-time duds!

I would say that music is the only thing he liked, and that he hated every other thing in the universe, including himself. I try not to evangelize for his music as much as I used to, though.

Even though I don't like most of Zappa's albums, dislike his comp style as a whole and am constantly frustrated by his ah "zaniness" as was mentioned in that other thread, I would never go so far as to call him a dud. At least Freak Out!, the juicy parts of Joe's Garage and Sheik Yerbouti (Watermelon in Easter Hay, Bobby Brown, Dancin' Fool), and jeez I really like The Yellow Shark, beautiful performances and interesting writing. "Zappa hates music" sounds like an asset in a musician afaic.

"Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is THE BEST."

I would say that music is the only thing he liked, and that he hated every other thing in the universe, including himself. I try not to evangelize for his music as much as I used to, though.

― Your sweet bippy is going to hell (WmC), Saturday, August 11, 2012 1:17 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Interesting point, to which I would reply: that sure is a funny way to treat something you love... That angle is interesting, though; is his misanthropy pretty well documented?

I don't understand the concept of a musician who hates music, much less one with dozens of albums many of which are self-released. Could you explain this a little more clearly?

I figure if you 'hate music' then you just wouldn't make any music. I can understand subjectively saying what he does is not music, but you can't deny that what he does it involves chord progressions, melodies, and the use of multiple musical instruments.

One possible scenario: you hate the music of your contemporaries, and in listening to it, there's a strong creative response to make something that exists in opposition to that which you hate.

Ha, that's not really hating music as much as hating a specific type of music though.

Working seriously and intensively at music in a professional way can definitely make it both less fun and less mysterious/thrilling, which is where I originally thought you may have been coming from when you said hating music is a good quality in a musician.

Another: you hate music now but loved it as a child. a) Your creative process borne out of the frustration of loss. b) You create music compulsively in the hopes that the love you once felt appears again, and it does, in glimpses, when a new chord progression appears, or when you succeed in finishing a verse. c) Your love for music as a child meant you sought training, now it's all you can do to pay the bills. Your only alternative career is in the service industry.

I suppose I just cannot identify with an approach to music that involves writing lyrics about toilet humor, or being so self-consciously zany, or (like in that anecdote upthread) writing stuff with seventh-notes 11 ledger lines above the staff and being such a Nazi about someone sight-reading it promptly. I like plenty of music that could be described as non-emotional, but Zappa's stuff seems so purposefully non-emotional and non-expressive. I cannot sink my teeth into it at all.

is his misanthropy pretty well documented?

― Clarke B., Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:04 PM (1 hour ago)

his misanthropy is very well documented in his music, imo.

fwiw, there was some discussion of similar criticisms in the rush/yes/zappa thread. i more or less agree with you, but accept that sound-minded others get something out of his stuff that i don't and perhaps just can't.

wow, so zany and non-emotional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq7QL8fYBkc

Yeah, but that was earnestness very much out of character.

man the Ruben & the Jets album is really, really something else. Formally it's a total masterpiece. Content-wise there are some heavy "wait...fuck you, maybe?" moments: weird racial stuff, complicated somewhat by the ethnic makeup of the band I think -- some of these guys putting on SoCal Chicano accents & playin' 'em for laffs are Chicano. But the last song on the proper album, "Stuff Up the Cracks," caught me unawares this morning and I laughed the sort of open, genuine laugh Zappa almost never elicits, it completely cracked me up.

Totally fascinating record, really similar to what Greg Cartwright does: mining a single genre for formal tropes that're sort of known but uncatalogued. The disc I got is Greasy Love Songs & the tacked on interviews are fascinating in that Zappa's meanness, his general dislike of people, is clear, but then he talks about the actual musical motivation for R&TJ -- "I wanted to play this style of music I really like," not an exact quote but very close -- and the thing that makes him really frustrating comes through: this is a guy who, if he'd, like, spent some time in therapy, or maybe dropped some acid, might have shed some of his insecurities and been an artist who didn't have to cloak his work in nasty insecurities. And in his pretty intense focus on doo-wop musical structures, approaching this style as a compositional challenge...it's a hell of an album imo

such a shame he gave up writing songs like this and went for the easy sex "jokes" instead. love that little arpeggio-like run at the end of some verses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBpG-KI2sEA

For me "We're Only in it For the Money" was the one that resonated with me the most. The song "Mom & Dad" is so incredible, especially the line "ever take a minute just to show a real emotion?", which made me feel (in the context of everything else) that Zappa was really some kind of genius; also the line "Ever tell your kids you're glad that they can think? Ever say you love them, ever let them watch you drink?"...little did I know that Zappa himself would soon go entire albums without showing any emotion at all!

I laughed the sort of open, genuine laugh Zappa almost never elicits

I still do this on "Flakes" during the Dylan impression (especially that quiet one note *honk* that randomly crops up in the background), but that's Adrian Belew isn't it? Still it's weird that I'm shocked when I laugh at something of his, considering he interjects 'humor' into like 75% of the songs he ever wrote.

yeah, he's a weirdo. there are some songs on that particular record that are obv. genius

but i don't get him/find him severely off-putting

-most aggressively repulsive facial hair ever
-even when i was 11 years old i thought titties and beer, bobby brown and most of the scatalogical-themed stuff on joe's garage was more corny than funny
-the stuff that people are repping for, like watermelon doesn't do much for me
-his famous speech to pmrc i actually disagreed with his main point-- people are in fact hugely influenced by popular culture, lyrics they hear in pop songs. his thing of "if people were really that influenced then people would be loving each other all over the world b/c most songs on the radio are love songs" is bullshit and strangely naive coming from him. most "love" songs on the radio are about infatuation or variations on jealousy, which yeah is pretty reliably a global phenomenon. there are not many songs about agape tho. (crew sluts was not big-enough hit to count as such)

eh his point stands. people don't experience infatuation because they heard a song about it and got ~influenced.~ people write songs about infatuation because it's a thing that people experience, and pop songwriters work under the theory that if you sing about stuff people relate to, they'll like it.

yeah, that's more than valid

but i'm pretty sure the point he was making to the pmrc commission was conflating the concept of eros and agape

like as i recall, and i'm too lazy to look up his speech so forgive me, but what i got from it at the time was that he was saying "oh there's all these 'love songs' so by that logic there should be peace on earth by now"

which is bullshit in more than one way by my reckoning

but anyway, i think that people are definitely influenced by songs and lyrical content. elsewise none of us would be here on a board called "i love music"

yes, one-shooter videogames do not immediately translate into some guy doing a killing spree

but people obv take cues from popular music to some extent. it's not exclusively songwriters trying to make a buck from giving ppl things they imagine a hypothetical audience will immediately relate to

You know what's fucked? That compilation "Strictly Commercial". I'd say DUD but how else could you cull Zappa's material down to 18-22 tracks?

On one hand it frustrates that there's only four 60s tracks ("Guitar... Mama", "Peaches", "...Water turn black", "Trouble every day", and all sorts of imo lousy 70s Apostrophe-era crap, nothing from Joe's Garage. But could anybody do any better?

Anyway I only brought it up b/c I bought it on CD at 15 and it's, well, it's not a good compilation.

@ del I think there was an element of modernist affectation in Zappa's lyrical approach, tbh. That is, he was deliberately pushing the envelope of "what you could say on a record" because he thought it brought him closer to Xenakis or w/e

yeah I think that's otm. Zappa also has severe music-school envy. Which is so hilarious because I don't know one person who went to music school who isn't pretty down on music school

I may have made that point the other day btw. See also "worst part about getting old" thread.

Didn't it have the title cut from Joe's? xxxp

The song "Joe's Garage" is on Strictly Commercial. And though I don't entirely love Apostrophe, it was one of his commercial peaks.

Xposts

@ del I think there was an element of modernist affectation in Zappa's lyrical approach, tbh. That is, he was deliberately pushing the envelope of "what you could say on a record" because he thought it brought him closer to Xenakis or w/e

yeah, i can get that. i guess there weren't so many people back then just coming out with that sort of lyrical content

but, he did it so persistently and in such a juvenile way for the most part that i find it more off-putting on the whole than revolutionary or whatever

my mistake re Joe's Garage

That quote about love songs is dumb but I do not think it was part of his PMRC testimony, which I just read in its entirety. I think he may have said it on CNN Crossfire?

PMRC hearings: http://www.joesapt.net/superlink/shrg99-529/toc.html

("People are not influenced by song lyrics" was not his main point.)

Yeah, but that was earnestness very much out of character.

I don't get the tendency on ILM to judge an artist by their entire career. Zappa is similar to the Dead in that sense. They each made about 5 or 6 great albums at the start of their career before a long and prolific downhill slide and tons of live dreck. But people always want to focus on the later stuff and their bad perceptions of all of the fans who like the later crap. I knew that somebody would claim that WOIIFTM was an outlier. But to me it makes sense to start from what are widely considered to be the artist's best albums.

I love the sound of the Ruben and the Jets album - the arrangements and Ray Collins' singing in particular.

do love ruth underwood, good showcase, and a pretty sweet jam once they get away from being all "crazy":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PS_AVFIGEk

A couple of years ago, when I heard that Frank was ill, I called him up. For 14 years we had no contact at all. He invited me to the house and we enjoyed some really nice visits with each other. Last June ('93) he called and asked if he could sample some of my stuff. I was shocked because I hadn't touched a pair of mallets since March of '77. I ended up practicing for 14 hours, which was all the time I could get together in the context of my life now. I spent four days at Frank's house sampling. This was really a miracle for me - that I could be reunited with him and still have something to offer.

i'm not a fan, so i don't know whether or not that's the best display of ruth, but it always impressed me

if he'd, like, spent some time in therapy, or maybe dropped some acid, might have shed some of his insecurities and been an artist who didn't have to cloak his work in nasty insecurities

LOL.

No doubt he heard this all the time! And it's been brought up a few times on these Zappa thread. If only he wasn't an asshole and liked people....well maybe he just wouldn't have a reason to make music. Frank Zappa the well-adjusted encyclopedia salesman or something.

What do you recommend, Primal Therapy? Healing crystal? Maybe Xanax, or put him on some other anti-depressants? The world was trying to change FZ and he in turn was like 'Who are you to tell me what to be?' Thus horrible songs about the worst scum on the planet.

It's funny dyspeptic 'cos it's true.

("People are not influenced by song lyrics" was not his main point.)

ok, thanks. huh. maybe i am confusing his testimony with someone else's, or an incidental soundbite of his delivered to me

billy joel's of course, got really heated

anyway i still think zappa was a creep and would have been less so if he had maybe experimented with drugs (@ adam bruneau)

What was Billy Joel's testimony? I can't find any record of it

sorry that was a "joke"

#kennybania

I don't know one person who went to music school who isn't pretty down on music school

I think your general point is valid...but the Dream Theater dudes (who I've had several excellent conversations with at this point) would probably be the huge glaring exception to this rule.

I wouldn't necessarily say that I'm down on music school per se btw.

What do you recommend, Primal Therapy? Healing crystal? Maybe Xanax, or put him on some other anti-depressants? The world was trying to change FZ and he in turn was like 'Who are you to tell me what to be?' Thus horrible songs about the worst scum on the planet.

I recommend straight old therapy for people who are walking around angry at all humans all the time. I do understand that you, like Zappa, are above all that, 'cause you've seen through the charade of all these phonies peddling their cures. May I one day rise to your level of wisdom!

Is there any truth at all in the cliché that happiness dries up the artistic impulse?

Or should I say, any untruth at all? Obviously, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

@ del ohhhh I see. I knew lots of pretty white-bread musicians were testifying as well but BJ did seem pretty far-fetched. I was thinking "what song was offensive? Allentown? I give up."

Is there any truth at all in the cliché that happiness dries up the artistic impulse?

whether my writing is any good or not in general is not for me to say, but the work I do that people seem to like best is almost always written when things are going well for me. when things are not going well for me I do not feel like writing at all. there have been a couple of exceptions to this in recent years which were kind of revelatory for me but for the most part, the healthier I am, the better my work seems to me, and, just on the response of the people who like it, to others.

I know death metal dudes who write strictly as a way to exorcise long-harbored anger and to work through the kind of sadness generally associated with, you know, "sad songs," though.

77.

Sometimes Zappa will catch me unawares and I'll realize, oh wait, "Peaches en Regalia" is actually kinda charming, WTF, a slip or poor quality control or something?

I sometimes wonder what I would have majored in had I been happier in late adolescence.

I wouldn't necessarily say that I'm down on music school per se btw.

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, August 12, 2012 11:17 AM (2 hours ago)

Yeah, neither am I.

This thread has caused me to pull Hot Rats and Shut Up 'n' Play Yer Guitar out of storage (OK, off my external hard drive and into my iPod). Damn you all.

Wow, that whole show contenderizer pulled Inca from upthread is fantastic

yeah, a friend who's is (or once was) a pretty big zappa fan played it for me a while back. didn't covert me, but i do quite like some of it.

That Roxy-era band is the best.

Yeah the only Zappa LP I really listen to regularly is the 1974 Helsinki gig. It's really nice to see them on video, even if whoever edited it needs to get beaten with a lead pipe

people who are walking around angry at all humans all the time

Do you really think this about Zappa as a person or is this your critique on his work? His satirical songs are too silly and collaborative and self-aware to come across as "angry at all humans". Most footage I've seen of the live performances, it looks like everyone in the band is having a good - if not hilarious - time.

"("People are not influenced by song lyrics" was not his main point.)"

Could you elaborate? I thought his main point was (paraphrased) "There is no magic word that, once sung, can make somebody kill or otherwise act like an idiot"

I like The Velvet Underground but yeah I don't know if I'd get along with Lou Reed as a person. It really doesn't matter to me. He's putting on a persona in a song and when I listen I'm indulging it just like he is, and that's just how the musician-audience listening experience. We're both connecting to something that transcends personal differences. Maybe it's stupid and gross but the world can be stupid and gross at times just like it can be at beautiful other times.

"just how the musician-audience listening experience works"

Uh sorry for that grammar. I'm kind of out of it.

Your Dedalus to Lou's Bloom was such a perfect wit.

Getting back to the "Zappa Hates Music" thing: I can't claim to be an expert on Zappa or anything, but one of the things I took away from reading the autobio a couple years ago was that during the latter half of his career he became more entrenched in his dislike of "Rock Music" and it's audience. He'd always held contempt, but as in private he was moving more towards Contempory Composition and attempting to write for orchestras, he began to churn out more low-brow rock stuff and perform concerts of that material so he could raise money to have scores drafted in hopes for getting major ensembles to perform his "Serious Music". He doesn't say in so many words, but he basically considered his commercial stuff from the late '70s-early '80s pandering to the rock crowd (with of course a bunch of caustic social commentry and jaw-dropping explorations of musical chops integrated in).

Do you really think this about Zappa as a person or is this your critique on his work?

in every interview and in his work it seems this way to me - it's not just me, we went into this upthread. it's like, the targets of his attacks aren't always necessarily hypocrites or Bad Dudes - they're just people living their lives and getting called big dummies for it by (the narrator of) Frank Zappa ('s entire ouvre pretty much without exception). He is a case - I think there are more of these than people generally allow - where the work and the person are expressions of the same character, which in Zappa's case is a pretty nasty bit of work. Sometimes that can be pretty hilarious, sometimes it's a moot point because he's just telling little stories without heroes or villains but a bunch of schmoes the he (or his persona, if we insist, but I don't) really thinks are clued-out dickheads.

this gets us into lots of general propositions about writing & performance & big long late night coffee discussions but yeah. I think persona as shield from evaluation of person is a vastly, vastly overstated proposition. if your entire career you sing songs through the voice of a guy who looks down on everybody & that guy is pretty much never skewered by your satire, you're telling me something about yourself whether you like it or not.

I say this, mind you, as a guy who is listening to loads of Zappa and loving it right now. But I do think, no, it's not that this guy's persona is unpleasant. It's that this guy is a dick.

and would have been less so if he had maybe experimented with drugs

lol

OTM. I've been a dedicated FZ listener since I bought Sheik Yerbouti in mid-1979 -- bought everything, sold half of it in the late 80s, repented and rebought it all, read most of the bios and a lot of the interviews, and he was just a deeply hate-driven person at his core. The "why" will never really be known -- he had a few really awful experiences, but couldn't process them emotionally so they kept coming back up as gouts of bile.

I think the main aspect of his compositional genius is that as an autodidact, he really did see all music as flowing from the same headwaters, and refused to accept the genre differences that separated Johnny "Guitar" Watson from Edgard Varèse. But that put him in opposition with everybody -- he hated the pop industry for its shallowness but worked in it to pay the bills. He hated the classical field for grinding away at the same old canon of classical literature and not supporting new composers. He had a lot of contempt for classical players who had loads of talent but lax work ethics (cf the 200 Motels sessions and the tipsy out-of-tune trumpets at the LSO sessions).

The only time he could tamp all that shit down was when he was hiding behind a big stack of staff paper, imo.

xpost

Could you elaborate? I thought his main point was (paraphrased) "There is no magic word that, once sung, can make somebody kill or otherwise act like an idiot"

I went through it once more: I do not see that idea in Zappa's statement concerning the PMRC, even though it is an idea he has expressed elsewhere. The main points seem to be:

i) The spouses of some of the PMRC founders were also involved with a proposed blank tape tax, which was under discussion at the same time and which affects the same industry (and which Zappa opposed, although if it's what I think it is, I do not oppose it myself), suggesting a potential conflict of interest. As such, the PMRC's proposals and tactics were a sensationalist distraction. (This argument seems pretty dubious to me but it comes up throughout his statement).

ii) The PMRC's proposals raise First Amendment concerns since a) they would lead to de facto censorship when large chains had already said they would not stock albums with certain labels and b) their system for labelling rock albums was implicitly based on Christian fundamentalist values.

iii) Parents should in fact be able to control what their children are exposed to but the PMRC's proposed system was not a good way of helping them do this for a number of reasons. Zappa did in fact support the idea of simply printing the complete lyrics of every album and making them available to consumers before they purchase any album. It would also be more effective to promote Music Appreciation programmes in schools so that children could make more informed decisions and might actually sometimes want to hear classical or jazz albums instead of pop. (Zappa also promoted the idea of parents buying classical and jazz for their kids instead of buying Prince records and then getting worked up over them. Btw, the language he used when talking about this seems to support C. Grisso/McCain's contention.)

iv) Many of the things that were sung about on 'offending' records, such as masturbation or female arousal, were not illegal anyway.

v) The PMRC unfairly focused on rock albums, as opposed to, say, country or comedy records. This system would amount to a de facto subsidy of the country industry. Again, he suspected a conflict of interest, considering the Gores' home state.

He argued that labelling albums was not the same as rating films because actors in films are 'pretending' whereas labelling a recording is passing a judgment on the musicians who made the album, which I'm not sure I buy.

He argued that labelling albums was not the same as rating films because actors in films are 'pretending' whereas labelling a recording is passing a judgment on the musicians who made the album, which I'm not sure I buy.

also a counterargument to the contention that Zappa's using persona as a governing conceit, weirdly

at least we know where zappa stood on the burning question of ccr's authenticity

Where?

WmC's post was awesome, btw.

does this awesome, ahead of it's time song means i should check out the whole album?, cause i don't like Zappa in general

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=girnJH7tvpM

Lol, possibly not. Legend has it that that's the song they were playing at the Whisky when Tom Wilson saw them and signed them to Verve. He kinda lived to regret it when they went into the studio to record the album, and a lot of the material veered off in a wildly different direction. On the other hand --

Frank Zappa paid this tribute: "Tom Wilson was a great guy. He had vision, you know? And he really stood by us ... I remember the first thing that we recorded was 'Any Way the Wind Blows,' and that was okay. Then we did 'Who Are the Brain Police?' and I saw him through the glass and he was on the phone immediately to New York going, 'I don't know!' Trying to break it to 'em easy, I guess." "Wilson was sticking his neck out. He laid his job on the line by producing the album."[7]

I mean, if it's the avant-garde stuff you don't like, then Freak Out could definitely fool you into getting something you're not. This was not the form that most of his protest music took.

Get "Absolutely Free" then "We're Only In It for the Money"

Hey, lots of Zappa up on Spotify - don't know if it's been mentioned yet.

"Trouble Every Day" is generally one of the few Zappa tunes that even the non-fans can agree on. Other one is "Peaches en Regalia". Freak Out! is an excellent album but believe it Zappa does not usually sound like that!

shame..thanks though

"Anyway the Wind Blows" is a favourite of mine too. Sometimes I think it's the best thing he ever did.

as a pastiche maybe

It's a nice song

maybe. i give up on him. again..

Believe me I'm no big fan either

it's a shame, cause obviously Zappa is talented, but imo he totaly wasted it.

I instinctively hated Zappa for years until like you Trouble Every Day caught my ear. I agree with people here that's it not representative at all, even of that period of the Mothers - and yet it became for me a gateway into Zappa's music.
I would still recommend to anyone to check out 'Hot Rats' and 'We're only in it for the Money'

did taht yesterday (again after several years) and was not convinced..

i dunno if you can say he "totally wasted" his talent. he released like 70 LPs of material while he was alive. there's gotta be something you like among them.

Yeah, "totally wasted" is a ridiculous assertion. His music's not for you, obviously, but he has an important body of work as a composer.

a needle in the haystack?

of course it's all IMO. i appreciate his work, but yeah, it's not for me. the elements that doen't work for me are propably the satire/parody one's.

Con-cen-traaaa-tion-moooooooo-ooooon

What's the ugliest part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
But I think it's your mind
I think it's your mind....

ALL YOUR CHILDREN ARE POOR
UNFORTUNATE VICTIMS OF
SYSTEMS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL
A PLAGUE UPON YOUR IGNORANCE & THE GRAY
DESPAIR OF YOUR UGLY LIFE

First time I ever heard "Absolutely Free" it was wonderful. There was that sneering attitude (perfect as i was 16yo), that 60's sound that i loved, needlessly complicated orchestration that rewarded you with every successive listen, etc. Everyone makes a big deal of Brian Wilson's modular arrangement style from this period but in any given early Mothers album there is usually a "Smiley Smile" contained in every 2 or 3 songs.

are you talking about the album or the song? because I had an entire summer where "Absolutely Free" was the only song I could think of. such a brilliant tune.

First time I ever heard "Absolutely Free" it was wonderful.

Had the opposite effect on me, I was like, "Oh just fucking shut up, why don't you". Kinda like it now, in bits.

Not the song, the album.

Every time I want to get into Zappa I just wind up getting massively put off by something (the "shut up" reaction that Tom is referring to) - last time it was the Ahead of Their Time album which included a bunch of dialogue about how "we won't get laid if we play this WEIRD and WACKY music! We should be playing in 4/4! Not this AWFUL 6/13 garbage!!"

Still, he gets points for naming an album Shut Up n' Play Your Guitar!

I don't think I've posted this on any of the other FZ threads, but it's definitely worth a watch, albeit probably more fun the more you know the original.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVtDEkou_QA

Not the song, the album.

Yeah, that what I was talking about

Well if you are going to hate Zappa you are going to hate him, and that's totally fine. I think more than any other musician I enjoy Zappa is the one that I can understand other people not liking the most. On that tip I feel like if you are going to love Zappa you may as well dive into the most zany classic Mothers sound collage/social commentary/freakout music you can. The trilogy of "Absolutely Free", "We're Only In It For the Money", and "Lumpy Gravy" is like the ultimate litmus test. I couldn't really see someone being in love w, say, "Sheik Yerbouti" while at the same time hating those earlier records.

I couldn't really see someone being in love w, say, "Sheik Yerbouti" while at the same time hating those earlier records.

Really? I could totally see that.

But total fanatical Zappa fans seem to like everything he did no matter what

Nooo.....

I've been buying and loving his work since 1979, but some of it I just can't stand. The Flo & Eddie period is terrible, much of the Synclavier stuff leaves me cold. So much of the misanthropic "comedy" music is horrible.

Now that his catalog is on Spotify, I might make some playlists that accentuate different aspects of his work.

I dislike most of the original Mothers stuff. I like Ruben, Rats & Weasels, but otherwise I'm not on board until Grand Wazoo. But from there through Zappa In New York I'm a bit gonzo over his work even if I cringe at the lyrics as time goes on. The music and musicians he was working with were top notch. It's more hit or miss afterwords, though the Guitar records are straight killer.

Huh, it appears I'm wrong. Tbh i haven't met many Zappa fans irl unless i was listening to "WOIIFTM" and they came up to me and said "Duuuuude! Yessss!"

I like Zappa's instrumental music - my iPod contains The Grand Wazoo, Waka/Jawaka, Hot Rats, Shut Up 'n' Play Yer Guitar, and the recent compilation Finer Moments, and that's it. In high school I liked the late '70s/early '80s albums - Them Or Us, You Are What You Is, the Joe's Garage trilogy - but I don't listen to those anymore. I feel really glad to have seen him on his final US tour - Make A Jazz Noise Here, the mostly instrumental live album from that run, is pretty good, too.

Your original statement was a bit like saying about a Pink Foyd fan, "I couldn't really see someone being in love w, say, "Dark Side of the Moon" while at the same time hating "Piper at the Gates of dawn".

Well "Sheik Yerbouti" always seemed like on the zanier goofy-voices side of his stuff, so i thought it was a more direct comparison.

Can't remember if this was linked up thread : http://www.furious.com/perfect/zappainstrumentals.html

Hadn't seen it before. Great piece.

"Sheik Yerbouti"'s supposedly his alltime biggest seller, so it makes sense that it has lots of fans who have no use for the MOI stuff

^
this is crazy - that album always seemed to be a late career curio (with the Bob Dylan impersonation its sole saving grace). I have trouble imagining a world/period where that was a hit album

It's got "funny" songs on it

true - I might have chuckled a few times when I first heard Flakes, Jewish Princess and Dancing Fool. Can't remember anything else on that album

I always thought Broken Hearts Are For Assholes was pretty funny just because of how weirdly vulgar it gets. Not proud of myself for laughing at that one. But having a disco song that's almost completely undanceable really is funny!

"Dancin' Fool" was a respectable hit (#45) and got plenty of airplay in 1979, even in Mississippi. Grammy nomination, (disastrous) SNL gig... it's not too surprising that SY was his biggest selling album...that was never a high bar to clear.

yeah Sheik Yerbouti was the first album I heard in high school, it and You Are What You Is are maybe the heaviest on the silly voice comedy music (isn't "Bobby Brown Goes Down" on SY? that's def one of the key "silly" Zappa songs, also one of the most offensive)

nowadays the only stuff I can listen to is the Mothers + Hot Rats, but I should prolly try other records

I do think that even when his albums suck they are all at least interesting to some degree. I love the idea of Thing-Fish because you've got this widely respected composer with an incredibly devoted fanbase, and even they have trouble listening to it all the way through. The amount of rampant mysogny and homophobia on his albums is probably the thing that's going to really scar his overall body of work - I know most superfans claim that this is all ironic but after his 50th or so song attacking gay people I kinda wonder how true that is.

yeah, the homophobic jokes (esp on "Bobby Brown") are too mean-spirited and venomous to code as ironic to me

not to mention all the "jokes" about pedophilia when he worked with both a convicted sex offender and a guy who is currently serving 25 years for child molestation. but we have discussed this before. still it does make a lot of his shit tough to swallow.

Weirdly, Bobby Brown was supposedly a popular song in gay clubs in the 70s.

Sofa has always been my favorite Zappa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOMFJ1Fosh0

If you like Trouble Every Day you may also like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDE9MC3jnl0

For me the first three Mothers albums, Hot Rats and Apostrophe are all excellent, but really the only essentials. I spent a significant amount of time (and money, this was when you still had to buy music) in my late teens trying to find stuff by him I liked as much, and was always disappointed.

what's new in baltimore is also extremely beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0sxuL2BORI

hold out for the guitar solo.

I think that in general with later Zappa (say, anything past You Are What You Is, and maybe even before that) you should just stick to the live stuff, as a rule of thumb. Nearly all the live albums I have are filled with a good chunk of "new" material but also have a few stunning renditions of older tunes - the way he'll take something that you may not even remember like "Outside Now" and turn it into something absolutely gorgeous is really something, and IMO the only thing Zappa really did well later on.

yeah I haven't checked a lot of this since high school but I seem to remember The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life being pretty good

I was never nearly as interested in Zappa the guitar virtuoso as Zappa the crazy cross-genre songwriter/composer.

The amount of rampant mysogny and homophobia on his albums is probably the thing that's going to really scar his overall body of work

He was born in 1940 and he always seems to me like a 50s kinda guy... and Italian... sorry if that's a bit Italophobe

The amount of rampant mysogny and homophobia on his albums is probably the thing that's going to really scar his overall body of work - I

aren't you a huge WEEN fan?

hahahahahaha

ween is just all the shitty pothead asshole humor & not-funny genre pastiche of zappa without all the amazing composition and musical skill

"eat that question" off grand wazoo has my fave FZ guitar solo ever and i'm not really into technocratic aspects so much, which is why i'm not a bigger zappa fan now (but I did listen to him a ton when I was a kid); I don't get "soul" when I hear his playing, which is my own personal prejudice I guess

ween was nowhere near as cruel and pretty much dropped that style of humor by the time they turned 26

yeah bullshit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXV71xzDdJE

For me the first three Mothers albums, Hot Rats and Apostrophe are all excellent, but really the only essentials.

throw in the Shut Up albums and Roxy & Elsewhere and this is pretty much my take on the catalog, isolated moments like "Watermelon In Easter Hay" excepted.

yeah bullshit

http://www.youtube.com/v/bXV71xzDdJE&fs=1&hl=en

― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, April 4, 2013 7:44 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

first of all that song came out when they were 24 (I admit the early Ween is pretty rough), secondly that's more dark than cruel, unlike similar Zappa material you aren't really supposed to laugh at it

I'm a big fan of the various chamber ensembles that have performed FZ's work since his death (Ambrosius, Omnibus, Le Concert Impromptu et al). Just discovered a new one -- Inventionis Mater, an Italian guitar/clarinet duo. Some really nice arrangements here, especially of the WOIIFTM stuff.
http://www.inventionismater.com/eng/index.html

Thanks!

Yeah, that is nice. Those melodies take to those kinds of arrangements well. I sometimes wish all Zappa was arranged like the first few minutes of Uncle Meat -- before the snorks kick in.

Snorks are the worst.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhd0vqe0U21qczuau.jpg

This version of "Sofa #2" is the most sublimely beautiful of all the ones I've ever heard. I want this played at my funeral, for real. (And "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" played at my wake.)

I think that's my favorite of the tracks I sampled.

And I promise no snork references at either your wake or funeral.

No snork references?! Hell, my will is going to include $100 prize money for a "best snork" contest at the wake.

Is there extra money if I bring up the Trollkins?

WilliamC, are you familiar with Trio Cucamonga? They're new to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TAb6iYyJv4&feature=player_embedded

I'd heard the name before but never heard anything by them. That's a good Meat!

oh, and no money for Trollkins! What the hell are Trollkins, anyway?

Trollkins - the unholy marriage of the Dukes of Hazzard and Troll Dolls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozvYg2i3pS0

I stumbled across this. Maybe it's common knowledge but I never saw it before and it blew my mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MewcnFl_6Y

His one shining moment.

The sum total of my experience listening to Zappa:

I've hatred everything I've ever heard, which is, admittedly, not too much. But "wackiness," especially the scatological and puerile kind, is one quality in music I usually can't abide, and titles like "Don't Eat The Yellow Snow" have kept me from really exploring, with any seriousness, anything by the man. I also file him under "dudes who make 'psychedelic music' who clearly (audibly) don't take drugs," and, well, I just don't trust that.

I bought Hot Rats because I heard there was no singing, and that Beefheart was on it. I recall liking it OK, but it's been years. I am also aware of the Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar series, or whatever it's called, but have never heard it.

I love Beefheart (perhaps the single exception to my 'no wackiness' rule), and want to understand Zappa; as far as rock icons go, he's something of a final frontier for me. What's good? There's a cheap used copy of Absolutely Free at the record store here, and I understand that's one people like. I don't know any of the Mothers stuff at all. My mind is as open as it's likely to ever be.

listen to one size fits all and roxy and elsewhere

To see if you're interested in FZ the composer, try these:

The Zappa Album - Ensemble Ambrosius (FZ played on Baroque instruments)
Music by Frank Zappa - Omnibus Wind Ensemble (woodwind ensemble, obviously)
Prophetic Attitude - Le Concert Impromptu (woodwind quintet)
Ensemble Modern Plays Zappa - Ensemble Modern (smallish chamber orchestra; they worked with FZ directly before he died)
Plays the Music of Frank Zappa - Ed Palermo Big Band (...)
There's also a brass quintet called the Meridian Arts Ensemble which has played a lot of FZ, but their stuff is not very well recorded.
Jean-Luc Ponty - King Kong (1969 jazz album mostly of FZ work; arranged and conducted by FZ, and he plays guitar on the one track he didn't write iirc)

Those records give a sense of the music without having to deal with shitty comedy lyrics. After getting that amount of insulation, if you're still interested, go with these:
FZ - The Grand Wazoo and Waka/Jawaka (big band arrangements; my favorite pedal steel solo ever recorded on W/J)
You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Volume 2 (a complete 1974 concert by his hottest band)

After that, you're either committed to the stuff or gave up on it days ago.

Grand Wazoo is an amazing freak out jazz album

I really like that stravinsky/gamelan/whatever thing the band has going on in the early 70s. Could be best around 74 when the gig doesn't mainly consist of the 60s MoI tracks.
Really don't like the self congraturily smut stuff.

Self congratulationarily smut stuff.

Also worth checking out: George Duke's Feel (Duke was the keyboardist in Zappa's band from roughly 1971-75; Zappa plays guitar on two tracks on Feel).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4uW5ujGUyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9DqykUsqRY

I've been listening to Just Another Band from L.A. lately, I'm floored by how tight and coordinated the band is, "Billy the Mountain" has all these crazy stops and little jerks and syncopated comedy bits that require everyone to get in line for like 3 seconds. But it's barely listenable, like the kind of thing that was written in the span of two or three hours, and so much of it is Flo & Eddie making "mouth noises" ("and there were some birds!! CAW CAW CAW AIIYAIYAIYAIYAI!!!"). At least it's just stupid as opposed to stupid and disgusting, like "Magdalena" on Side B is.

What I really want is more of those sort of mutated and complex pop songs that Zappa did so well in his early days, the sort that were catchy as sin despite being so complex and full of left turns. Y'know..."Dog Breath", "Absolutely Free", "Concentration Moon", "Oh No", "Mother People", "Peaches en Regalia"...did he just stop writing these?

No.

(longer answer after I'm past current work deadlines)

We're Only in it is the natural entry point (and his best IMO)
1st disc of Uncle Meat, Hot rats and the debut Freak Out are pretty welcoming too.

^^^ agreed, although all of them contain "wackiness" to some degree. I had never heard "What's New In Baltimore" before, that and "Watermelon..." are essentially jazz fusion not far removed from, say, Jeff Beck's Blow by Blow.

I'm a fan, if not a regular listener, of his orchestral writing, much of which WilliamC recommended, which would likely satisfy someone into Kronos Quartet (or Carl Stalling's cartoon scores.)

The Ensemble Modern released a cd with Zappa songs not everyone knows about and it´s pretty good called ´Greggery Peccary and Other Persuasions´.

'Orchestral Favorites', ´Sleep Dirt´ and ´Studio Tan' all contain 'serious´ music. The Zappa Family Trust just released ´Dance Me This´ but no reviews have surfaced yet.

i like jazz from hell

Very much enjoyed Hot Rats and was surprised by the warmth of it.

My Zappa listening is mostly a thing of the past, but I've never seen Dweezil, and setlists from the current tour look deep and interesting to me. Should I go?

I imagine it'd be a fun time and I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

I've never heard a single bad word about Dweezil's show

I'd like to see his show

Pretty classic in a random mix go from Zappa's "Call Any Vegetable" to the Ohio Players album track "Rooster Poot" - which sounds EXACTLY like something off a FZ record. Don't think that skit song had ever really purked up my ears in the couple times I checked out that Ohio Players album, but this listen was notable.