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she had some message written on the inside of her trenchcoat and they only showed her from behind - was it "fuck you norah jones"?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it was "My New Album Drops Sept. 11"

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, "Sept. 18"

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously, was it an antiwar statement or something?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Edmonton Journal says it read "Rock On" which is understandably the kind of political comment CBS does not want to condone.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I want to punch her.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

why chris?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

if you have to ask...

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I just can't stand her, no real reason. I think its the total package. Everytime I see her I get angry with her attitude. Who the heck does she think she is? And her band, ugh they all deserved a swift kick to the balls.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Monday, 24 February 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

if you have to talk about punching skinny 18-yr old kids because they're more successful than you...

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck man, she's a dumb teenager. she's NO DIFFERENT from any other 17/18 yr old from Buttfuck Ont, except people listen to her. She's a fucking high school drop out, so take her with a g. of salt.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

what's so wrong with teenagers from buttfuck ontario?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

They're all like Avril Lavigne.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"What was on Avril's coat?"

My urine.

Haha...sorry, someone had to do it.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck man, she's a dumb teenager. she's NO DIFFERENT from any other 17/18 yr old from Buttfuck Ont, except people listen to her. She's a fucking high school drop out, so take her with a g. of salt.
-- Horace Mann (handsomishbo...), February 24th, 2003. (later)

these are some of the most laughably knee-jerk elitist classist ageist anti-punk pro-status quo statements ever made on ilm

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

why don't these dumb smalltown kids just go back to their crappy high schools and stop being in rock bands!?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, why don't they, dammit!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

trashing avril is hardly anti-punk.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

haha yeah, stick it to the man you fucking saddos

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

trashing people because they're young, rural drop-outs who make older people say "who the heck does she think she is" is heartily anti-punk

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Who cares what's punk and what's not punk in this debate? She's an annoying little knat who should be stepped on with all speed.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

fritz in OTM / horace in completely off the mark double shocka

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

So what's Avril gonna be like in 10 years when she's not famous anymore? My guess is bitter.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

She'll be dusting off her hits for the 4H county fair circuit, and she'll have gained 80 pouds.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't she most likely from an upper middle class upbringing?

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Is she even a drop-out? That's the first I'd heard of that

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't she most likely from an upper middle class upbringing?

-- Jonathan Williams (x...) (webmail), February 24th, 2003

how in the hell does this even follow?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

also, middle class people fronting on other middle class people for not being "real" = deeply sad

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't even like avril lavigne, but you knobs make me wanna stick up for her

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

What if she had surfaced in 1984? Would you hate her as much? I'm not going to buy any of her records or even watch her on TV - but she's not so bad ... Just two years ago Nelly Furtado was all the rage... I would have been thrilled to have Avril in her place. As long as teenagers need some drivel to listen to, I'll be content with this kind ..

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll give ya that -- she's nowhere near as irritating as Nelly Furtado.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Avril's about as punk as Bruce was trying to sing "London Calling". For all her tough chick posturing, deep down she really wants to be Celine Dion.

― Jeff K (jeff k), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

so, i have a question: do all of you "punkers" spouting these empty not-even-truisms really believe them? or it total pavlov time?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, I'll bite: outside of her arguable fashion tastes, what exactly makes Avril so Punk? Her music is as polished as silver!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't actually give a shit if she's punk or not, it's just ridiculous to hear people using anti-punk logic to tell me how un-punk she is

mark s, are you out there?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

he's taking a nap, fritz

what does that have to do with being "punk" alex?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

troll
1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." Compare kook. 3. n. [Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS students. Duties include helping newbies and ensuring that lab policies are followed. Probably so-called because it involves lurking in dark cavelike corners.
Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See also Troll-O-Meter.
The use of `troll' in either sense is a live metaphor that readily produces elaborations and combining forms. For example, one not infrequently sees the warning "Do not feed the troll" as part of a followup to troll postings.
-- The Jargon File

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

jonathan, don't take this the wrong way, but you're possibly the densest person to ever post to ilm

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

regularly

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Wearing Chuck Taylors and a low-slung guitar doesn't make you "Punk," by the way.

Were it not for the accompanying visuals of her videos, her music is indistinguishable from virtually every other pop moppet clogging up the charts.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

She is so fucking punk rock that the very sight of her makes people wanna beat her up! You have to be really punk to get people to hate you so much.

― Scott Seward, Monday, 24 February 2003 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

People wanted to punch Yahoo Serious during his fifteen minutes of fame too. Does that mean he was Punk?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Nelly Furtado is about 8,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times more enjoyable to listen to than Avril Levigne.

She is so fucking punk rock that the very sight of her makes people wanna beat her up! You have to be really punk to get people to hate you so much.

Nerds/goths/jocks/sluts/popular kids/everyone is punk!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Who said she was punk? Shes "punk-edged teen pop" which is a fuckova long way from actually being punk. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark S and Sterling have asserted that she (and Pink) are punk many times over.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

alex, you've yet to answer my question about how her music being "as polished as silver" (and i dunno, i've seen some pretty grotty silver, cf. my grandma's china closet) is inimical to her music being "punk"?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean who that I'm listening to has said that ....

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Strip away the sartorial trappings and listen to her music -- that's what we're debating, right? -- and tell me how it's Punk in any way, shape or form? Tell me with a straight face that it's not simply workaday pop!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

alex, i don't think you can honestly answer the question, at least in terms of giving me a working defn of "punk"s sonics!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I wasn't trolling! I asked a simple question about Avril at the grammys and some of our senior correspondents told me they wanted to punch her and piss on her.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not that I'm trying to establish firm parameters for Punk Rock, it's that her music is irrefutably POP!!!!!!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

...meaning, if you cite Avril's music as "PUNK," then you should call Vanessa Carlton and Michelle Branch "punk" too, as there's precious little difference between them.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh for fuck's sake - fuck punk!

― Kim (Kim), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

haha then you're establishing some kind of parameters for something now, aren't ya!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Iz okay Fritz. Punk shows and threads always end in fights.

― Scott Seward, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(i'm really not fighting, as this is endlessly entertaining)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

For a start, I hereby take back my "Happy Birthday Jess" message, you sanctimonious cheese monkey.

Secondly, I don't give a fuck how one describes POP, but when someone who has absolutely fuck-all to do with Punk Rock starts creating the impression that she is Punk, I get agitated.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I know Jess. It's just that punk music like Avril's always gets people so worked up.

― Scott Seward, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah fuck y'all, I'm going to lunch.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

punching her is so punk.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I bet Norah Jones could beat Avril up.

― Jeff K (jeff k), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

have a nice lunch
but again WHO CARES IF SHE's PUNK OR NOT, it's just that all the self-appointed guardians of the punk rock ivory tower who say they hate her because she's A DUMB GIRL who are hypocrite reactionary jerks

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

b-but, alex, how do you decide?! one of the most nerve-wracking, subliminally tense and edgy, "this could erupt into violence at any moment" shows i've ever been to was the wu. are they punk rock? i can't really play coltrane's ascension without getting an ice cream headache. is he punk? i saw a dj spin one time and his shirt was ripped up and he cleared the floor. is he punk? that's social, sonic, and sartorial. what's left?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:10 (twenty-two years ago)

aw, he went to lunch as i was posting. oh well.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

eating lunch=not punk

― james wright, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, i'm sorry fritz sometimes it's hard to resist

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

what's left?

Plonk.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Anything with mass-appeal is not punk. It may be punky/punkish/punkesque/punktastic/punkified/punkolicious/punkeriffic - but it's not punk.

So yes, the Ramones are not punk .. meaning .. it's not "punk" in and of itself to be into the Ramones. They're only punk because of their association with the origin of the style.

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Eating lunch is sooooo emo.

― Scott Seward, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

What was on Avril's coat?

Buttons? A Zipper?

I like Avril's album, I also like Slayer.

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

why does "punk" have dibs on tense and edgy and noisy and all of those terms? the root of all of these "who's punk/who's not" debates is a conflict in terms -- the pop-loving folx defining punk as a social movement as much as a musical one and the rock-loving folx defining punk as a musical movement as much as social one. these debates annoy me because we all know what everyone else is going to argue before it all starts and there's never a resolution and it's unpunk to define punk and blah blah blah... so the end question is: can we delete the term "punk" from ilm?

(haha, yet i'm in this thread. is that punk???)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

So much promise, so much waste.

― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

yancey do you hate debate club?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Anything with mass-appeal is not punk

so anything the peasants might like is not punk? what are you, louis quatorze?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

fritz, all is lost, flee

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i just don't like seeing posters i like saying shit that makes me cringe.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

am I really the only person on ILM to have bought her album??

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

arg alex/jonathan

in laymans terms

the question is not "is avril punk or not"

the question is "why do you care?" -> why is popness is the guise of punk SUCH A MASSIVE AFFRONT to you?

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"in the guise"

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

(Jel, you never e-mailed me, and now I forget what I was going to send you :( )

― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Louis XIV - totally not punk. Except for the giant turkey legs....

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

"wah! cozen I never knew you wanted me to email you, what is your address??)

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

if you wnat find out who's a misogynist don't bother asking: just post an avril thread instead!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Julio, that's such bullshit it isn't even a funny joke.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Louis XIV - totally not punk. Except for the giant turkey legs.... and the bow wow song - oh, wait annabella was a teenage dropout girl... that's not punk

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

drummers! drummers everywhere! gaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

breakfast = ambient
coffe break = punk
lunch = emo
dinner = hard rock
desert = new wave
bedtime snack = ?

― james wright, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

avril rocks i sez (well, sk8r boy, anyways) and as for whether she's punk or not, i can't think of a criteria for judging music that interests me less...

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(Jel - Spamoff!)

― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

haha dan, what do you call it when people say they want to punch and piss on someone they don't like? respect? punk?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Usually I call them Iggy Pop or Gil Scott-Heron and move on.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, that seems about right.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

bedtime snack = indie pop

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

(to be fair, jess, the gender-bashing was implicit at best in the avril-hate. i bet alex would make the "my urine" joke about a dude too...[which is an odd thing to say in defence of alex, but it's true])

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

he does hate blindly equally

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i know. actually julio's right, but you have to swap "avril" for "courtney"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

back from lunch.

Mark asked the question is not "is avril punk or not" - the question is "why do you care?" -> why is popness is the guise of punk SUCH A MASSIVE AFFRONT to you?

`Cos it's a fuckin' LIE! Avril hasn't EARNED the RIGHT to call herself a Punk, god fuckin' dammit. I don't know about the rest of you kiddy kids, but time was when declaring alleigance to Punk Rock came with a price! It wasn't something you could go out and fuckin' buy ! It took a bit more work and committment to search out the music. It wasn't just a goddamn Halloween costume. I know there's this warped contingent here on ILM that likes to make ridiculous statements like "The Ramones aren't Punk" or "Duran Duran's 'the Chauffeur' is a Goth staple," and while Punk Rock itself was gradually subsumed, defanged, housebroken and eventually slain by the mainstream, the very term "Punk" still MEANS something to some people, and to see little whistleheaded posers like Avril or Shania dress up in some of the surface-level trappings of Punk Rock is OFFENSIVE! So, on behalf of the Ramones, the Pistols, Black Flag and a host of other legitimate Punk Rock luminaries, lemme say it again -- AVRIL LAVIGNE HAS FUCKING NOTHING TO DO WITH PUNK ROCK!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just thinking that Avril threads are going to be ending up like courtney love thraeds if she keeps having hits.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Avril will be punk when her albs can be bought at the alternative rack at the virgin sale. thanks for clearing that up alex.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex, it is somewhat perplexing to see you codify and stratify a genre that was all about doing whatever the fuck you wanted to do.

Julio: If you can point out how the negative things I've said about Avril make me misogynistic, I'd appreciate it.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the problem I have when punk gets bandied around is that the MEANS in this sentence ("the very term "Punk" still MEANS something to some people") is never defined. (Also, punk is never defined but that could be achieved by stapling that 'MEANS' to a meaning of its own.)

― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

we're the kids in america woah-oh

― schnell schnell, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

alex, you remind me of 'a hard day's night'

old man: i fought in the war for the likes of you!

beatle: bet you're sorry you won.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

ahem avril = shiny, plastic, throw-away, fun
punk = " " " "

― schnell schnell, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck

― schnell schnell, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"stratify a genre that was all about doing whatever the fuck you wanted to do."

Fair point, Dan, but Avril remains a slickly marketed, crassly prefabricated dollop of pabulum to be force-fed to a gullibe nation of zombified TRL heads, not some free spirited, system-bucking maverick as she's portrayed.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

pabulum!!

oh, how i missed that

i don't think avril is marketed half as "insidiously" as many here might like to believe

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

jess: I think you've attacked me everytime you have replied to me!

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

If "marketed" includes "Pro-Tooled into singing on key", I think Alex has a point.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(JW: That's just Jess's way of saying "I WUB U".)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

''Julio: If you can point out how the negative things I've said about Avril make me misogynistic, I'd appreciate it.''

and where did I specifically accuse you dan of having misogynistic tendencies?

you kept your criticisms to her music (specifically her voice) but I was just looking at some of the other comments on this thread.

sorry if i implied this was abt you. it wasn't.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I've missed the marketing of Avril. Never thought she was punk. Punk to me has a lot of "for real" austerity about it.

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Honestly speaking, I don't even hate Avril that much. I mean, I don't enjoy her music, but there's plenty worse (hello Nelly Furtado, once again). Where I get upset is the seemingly contagious notion that she has something to do with Punk Rock (which, if I'm not mistaken, she herself has denied). It's the broadcasting of that misinformation writ large that pisses me off.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I supposed posting the troll thing was pretty dumb.

Anyway, I don't see anything particularly "unpunk" about wanting to pee in Avril's mouth! I think it is quite punk.

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

before avril it was all celine dion and nelly furtado round these parts

― schnell schnell, Monday, 24 February 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

''Anyway, I don't see anything particularly "unpunk" about wanting to pee in Avril's mouth! I think it is quite punk.''

I think that's 'pretty dumb'.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously alex, back-in-the-day grandstanding aside, is anyone who subscribes to your idea of what punk likely to be duped into thinking that avril is actually MORE punk?

i find it hilarious that you're getting all het and bothered about the re-wrangling of a (super)word that's only changing its relation w/r/t to a whole demographic of people that actual punks completely distanced themselves from (or were alienated by) anyway

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

What I don't understand is what exactly do you have to do to earn the right to become punk. Isn't that anti-punk and pro-establishment to make it some sort of rite-of-passage fraternity? From what I can tell, the Ramones did nothing to earn the right to be punk - they just got up and made a band. Whose music was not less polished than Avril's (for the time, etc)! They were inspired by Phil Spector for christ's sake! Etc!

I don't even like Avril beyond two songs, one of which is NOT Complicated which makes me want to die. But this is all silliness! Punk isn't about earning the right to be anything, that's elitism and rockist. Punk is about people who can't play or fit into the "establishment mold" or whatever getting up and doing their thang.

And after all this, I'm not quite sure why this is even an argument in terms of Avril Lavigne?

Also, what the hell is wrong with being a high school drop out! For a bunch of people who, on ILE, readily ridicule people in the corporate lifestyle for not being real, ya'all sure have some criteron of intelligence in the educational status quo.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"of what punk IS" argh

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

surely plenty of punk rock luminaries made straightforward pop music that was slickly marketed. avril is continuing in this olde tradition, i sez

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i hope it's not sounding like people are ganing up on you alex but

the funny thing about your argument is it boils down to "don't wear t-shirts i like if you're not someone i'm apt to like" which = "image and surface and symbolism is all important to me", which = exactly the opposite of what you're trying to define as the authenticity ethos you're trying to defend

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

(that said, the only way you can wring avril into the 'punk' slot is by enacting that really ugly doublethink that goes something like 'but she is breaking rule/value set [x], therefore she is punk' which is actually really lame and easy.)

but that's neither here nor there - i'm more interested in how ANGRY people get

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I just get angry when someone who is talented in a very traditional and conventional manner (Norah Jones) is regarded as demonspawn when someone who I find patently untalented (Avril Lavigne) is held up as a standard-bearer of all that is good. And I don't even like Norah Jones that much!

(NOTE: Whatever evil and wrong things I said on the DMB thread, I think they're a better band than Avril's band in terms of how I view their talent and their musicianship. However, I'd rather listen to "I'm With You" than almost any DMB song. I am a contradiction wrapped up in a hypocrite.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

or, alternately fritz, the argument can go "don't soil my precious punk by spritzing it up for the masses b/c that might ruin it" when really the actual punkness of anything was punk mainly by virtue of its own built-in inspritzability

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

(which is to say "we made it" = it is punk no matter what)

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm so glad I turned new wave. New wave rocks, we r all gay, hooray!!!

― Arthur (Arthur), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

''when someone who I find patently untalented (Avril Lavigne) is held up as a standard-bearer of all that is good.''

well a lot of ppl in this thread do not hold her up as a 'standard bearer' at all.

In fact what i've seen today is a lot of ppl bitching abt whether Norah is jazz or not (on ILE mostly) and whether avril is punk or not.

categories don't mean too much but I am amused by ppl who are getting worked up by these things.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

This is my problem; everyone's been too busy with the categorization argument to properly engage my "do they have talent?" argument.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Punk isn't as simple as "doing your own thing" - because if your own thing is being a Wang-Chung cover band, well... So just wearing a leather jacket and sneering at the camera does not make one punk... although it may make someone *look* punk.

And the paradox of "you're telling people how to be punk, and that is SO unpunk" .. is the same as a diversity policy that excludes nazis & racists.

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

WE ARE ALL BOURGEOIS NOW, GO AWAY. None of you are punks!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

haha dan "talent" != punk, fer sure

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm more punk than jess cos I'm all about corporate sabotage.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm more punk than you all cuz i just dont give a fukkkk

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

punk vs. punk = real gorilla vs. guy in gorilla suit

― Kim (Kim), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The correct answer is "fries".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I AM NOT HAVING AN ARGUMENT ABOUT WHETHER AVRIL IS PUNK. I AM HAVING AN ARGUMENT ABOUT WHETHER SHE IS WORTH ANYTHING AS AN ARTIST.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

punk vs. punk vs. bunk = real gorilla vs. guy in a gorilla suit vs. the gorillaz

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

dan keep it down alex is eating

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

BLURILLAZZZZ!!!
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

ideal ILX poster (by extension of ally's argument) = someone with a PhD who is currently part of a hit rap production team

it's kind of funny how posters who think Avril didn't do any work to become punk (not you specifically Alex) often throw cheap and lazy insults into the ring - dumb Canadian, dumb broad, dumb teenager...

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

ow my head

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

jess close your damn tags

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm more punk than all of you because i practice

thread sabotage
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

someone unlearn jess' html skillz stat

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

(also: help him find a job or something)

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

― order = restored (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

html roxx u r all dumb canadians

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm more punk than jess because i sabotage his sabotage, then fuck shit up completely

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

ideal ILX poster (by extension of ally's argument) = someone with a PhD who is currently part of a hit rap production team

Why is that a bad thing?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

fite!!

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

bzzzzzzzzzzz

― i yam da fly (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Busted rule!!

Are Tatu punk?

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

woah! sound effects! Dexter's lab, Dexter's a rockist.

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate to say it (actually, I hate that I hate to say it), but, apart from not really liking her music, I actually can't help but actually kinda respect little Avril.

Avril punk? Pink punk? Well then, Donny & Marie Osmond? Punk. Kramer from Seinfeld? Punk. Chewbacca? Punk. CAPS-LOCK? PUNK.

Everything is "punk" nowadays. Get hip to it.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

It's punk to be a mod these days.

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

ideal ILX poster (by extension of ally's argument) = someone with a PhD who is currently part of a hit rap production team

What, you thought the "Doctor" in Dr. Dre was honorary?

(I'm not sure what argument this is that I have been given but I like it anyway!)

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

jesus dom that was completely unnecessary

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

CAPS LOCK = GOTH, obv.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

She's a fucking high school drop out, so take her with a g. of salt.

See, that's punk. Dropping out of high school takes more balls than most people realize, especially if one is trying to like pursue some ridiculous unattainable dream eg rock stardom.

― adam (adam), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Writing in all lower case is emocore! Caps and lowercase proper mixture is Max Martin!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

뱵 ੨ 席 ಆ   횔 ᖺ ꁟ ٲ 䌣 ꂏ 뀆 橐 ⶀ ׻ 쫰 � 䠥 퐥 䁚豻埑 폈 ㋡  � ꆅ 㺪 일 � 䭫 ᅺ 㥊拟 ꨞ 굾 ʦ 䯃 � ʿ ꚾ 䎥䕋佈勛 � Ế 㿆 놩  맫 ⌭ 甿 � ೖ ी 쨄  钃䙶 킈 ૡ ළ 嵤㐹 ꢲ 쇻 轶廉鮒 ꘰ 膺琋  唱㠏 샋 緿 ꇆ 뺅 㨛㺓 ꏰ 휕 鱸滶播  汫䎘 뗲 륐 � 覐 ੈ  뺝 ꨸ 휓 描袪 뗶  퇇 狛迻篙 ꫃ ꃵ  傼 녉 䢟 ꏗ 跡儮 ဓ 팰 銲誱勁 뇩 ꏳ 霁蒍 ੹ ᘚ 걖 檍 횗 龻璊軿  䰿卿㧆ㄥ ꥬ 荄坖靿 ᭎ ⣈ 懏 ⓾ 蟈 뵧 捦  뀦 뷥 ᩬ ᡋ  仓 빛 莘 ᖚ ᜇ 뻅 ░ ৥ ꬩ 烲䤰 ∱ 靗 ⎫ 敬鴮︼ ꉱ 帚迓嵉㹃䲬仐 픚  爤嬃㢯隒 ᩞ һ 轨噁  �  㶕碌衤 쇆 寻 ᷌ 劌䙝若䇀 � ㍽辖  䓱㒡爂 풎 漆誨 ⠌ ᥠ  ⸼ ㏌綵遛 ங 賩镴㔌 ᱍ 쳕 䢟 ⤯ य ﯊  ⵸  啹  緇 앜 < 忪 밸 䴫 듰  減訒  醽棐 ﳇ ᳙ 떤  둌 頫㩸 초 鶙 ﻗ ↝  䏽 ⁙ 䌬䑭㱪爫 � 鄫䔈䁏 툃 㷋 හ 䱇缙缤 ຑ 鈝 ࢨ 㝈苐 ꁍ ᰉ ㌱  燛  ‎ 坮 뱕 樘 ᖺ ᚴ 퓺 ␗ 钖 ԃ 杊粖 ⯙ 쯧 ⶃ � ⳻ 㫃 ᔄ ⨯ 㽠贶 ▒ ⱕ � 饜坆圔 뾱 ጺ 瞡 ꠊ 䞗  콪  䭧賔桰 ⴱ 訮 큠 悯  ᄧ 䧯澦㌜嗯迴 꽘 ၧ ﯸ 둽 汲 ף 诏㌨贜氒  倶寇 ꜩ   콿  ⊾ ㋻  諱峧㑣ㄠ崮⾎ ࣼ 䇳 ੈ 둅 � 䬠庺 ¾ 䃪 � れ䲙 ꃨ 栔Ｚ鸼淨  箢 ᙌ 摎  袣穁䗾罴䉝䕊鳠拭皋訫  䵡 럟 ㊮㘿镑 콬 濵 ⚥ ꝍ  攧穿匓䁳褤  ୵ 쩾 � ỳ ▃ � 츢 盽桋 ꎰ ଘ  層眜 ୆ 멐 ᏺ ᄫ  萃䙬 벎 ⌏ 递茺隆㤌 괸 ⡌ Ԟ 띚 ꕵ 젡  傪芣䙒 폐 춃 쒂 ꆮ 娆沯 쎭 뀺 ᶼ 뿌 蘍洦 ׋ ㋏䩁 퇲 㾎 ᑰ ㅨ 骘  來⼄鳷軣 ꅁ 횓 帜䜠 ✗ ꌾ 棅㽇 뢺  㞑頉 � ৬ 꽕 쇒 ﯘ 뽲 錅  逗 캳 뛒 � 툮 煓㏷ 딨  횯 渀罻砊斧嘪 Ꮨ 泡 ⱖ 㳾 ꌇ ࢑ � 滁  ⣾ 듴 偦 춘  挴䂺侙 ዗ 卤  䇠秘  蠦扴 � � 춺 祵 ឴ 虬 힤 抪䭫训 봝 甬 �  揶  凫 툺 壦 ╨  㔍懂 쿠 隷 펪 ୂ 芮 봳 ꩓ 䧊 흛 辒殅銐  ∐ ေ 퀿 諻鐉  쀬 ៱ 븜  鯧䇅烋㚂㨟 ﰃ 챝 똕 퉃 ≿ 텃 옟 句癦濾 V 巰㩗 숶 દ ꚺ 韏 슾 뺱 泥劁舨マ  ⎸ ໿ “ љ ꌨ 컁 ޙ 텟 鏝  倡 끟 ╬  掝 꿯 鍑 ẵ 틻 䖛 ᅌ 傩  㣪 ⊪ 鰷  掇 ޮ 㙧慩

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

if ILX hatez on ppl who drop out of high school, rockists, and people who don't keep it 'real', then it follows that the ideal ILX poster is...

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Jonathan Williams!!!

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

WAIT I NEVER SAID IF SHE WAS PUNK OR NOT!

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Avril Lavinge provides relationship management consulting services
in two arena. The first is broad capability building for organizations
that wish to implement standard approaches for managing their
customer, vendor or partner relationships. This work entails building
relationship management processes and supporting tools, enabling those
processes and tools with IT infrastructure, providing skills training,
and designing and leading change activities. The second arena is
enabling discrete partner relationships. In this area Lavinge works at
the interface of specific partnerships, helping both partners to
jointly launch, manage, audit and adjust their relationships.

Lavinge works with the world's leading global companies in many
industries, including information technology, financial services,
pharmaceuticals, telecommunications, entertainment, petroleum and
minerals, professional services, and manufacturing.

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/eo/20030221/en_celeb_eo/11311&e=5

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

ILX hatez on people who make more money than the lazy fuckers who populate this board, that's what.

FEAR ME FOR I HAVE JUST DONE A PUNK THING!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.gamingchips.co.uk/prods/suitblue.jpg

― one for yr other shoulder ally? (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesus, i turn away from ILM for a little bit, and 54 posts spring up like the many angry heads of a hungry Hydra? Fuck! Look, Avril Lavigne has nothing to do with Punk Rock. You know it. I know it. She knows it. Agree with me. Don't agree with me. Tell me I'm wrong. Vote for me as mayor of Pigeon-hole City. Whatever. There are worse culprits than she to get upset about. All I'm saying is that she's a poseur. I don't have time to respond to each of these posts individually (I wish I did, though).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"She knows it."

I wonder if she does?

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I can't let this one slip by....

From what I can tell, the Ramones did nothing to earn the right to be punk - they just got up and made a band. Whose music was no less
polished than Avril's (for the time, etc).....

What? Ally, dearest, you know I adore the very epidermal detritus that flakes off your pretty scalp, but that is a PATENTLY RIDICULOUS STATEMENT.

That Ramones were indeed inspired by Spector's wall of sound, but they also rabidly ate up music by the Stooges, MC5 and Black Sabbath. Moreover, they didn't work with Spector until their fifth studio album -- and by all accounts, it was not their finest hour.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone else: let's not talk about whether avril actually IS punk and discuss issues x, y and z

alex: well, she's definitely not punk

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

alex: well, she's definitely not punk

Thanks Mark. I appreciate that.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

And did anybody see that picture of Shania Twain in a Ramones t-shirt?

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

(rim-shot, curtain)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i'll see you all at the wrap party

byob

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a slippery slope argument, I'll admit it. My violent exhortation about Shania and Avril and whomever else from the Pop World posing in the sartorial trappings of Punk Rock isn't designed to lend creedence to the clothes, but rather to what the clothes REPRESENT! By way of very awkward example, I've never been to Turkmenistan. I know no one in Turkmenistan. I don't speak the language (Turkmenastanian?). I know nothing of their culture. Thus, you don't see me waving the flag of Turkmenistan, nor wearing a t-shirt that reads "HARD ROCK CAFÊ - TURKMENISTAN!" Waving a Turkmenastanian flag would be an empty gesture for me, because I do not identify with the nation it represents in the slightest. Likewise, wearing a shirt that read "Turkmenistananians Kick Ass!", implying some vague semblance of solidarity with a nation of people I know absolutely fuck-all about, would be a hollow lie, and something a native of Turkmenistan would have every right in the world to be dismissive of.

how's that for convoluted?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

get the hook!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:01 (twenty-two years ago)

let's try that again.

everyone else: "let's not talk about whether avril actually IS punk and discuss issues x, y and z"

alex: "well, she's definitely not punk"

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway now i really want a "turkmenistan 4 life" t-shirt

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

ayatollah assahollah

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

saddam hussein: so damn insane

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

a t-shirt with the batman logo except it has tits, and thus: batwoman

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

answer: shirts found in my father's closet

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, i thought you were addressing me directly. Apologies.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

did he have the one with the cartoon fisherman bear drinking a six pack?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.ultimateflags.com/int/images/turkmenistan.gif

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

(is my new desktop!!!)

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

See, now I would never wave that.

Are those roulette wheels on the side?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I see what you're saying above, alex, but that slope is pretty damn slippery. I think you just gotta give up on expecting the 77 punk uniform to mean the same thing to 18 yr-olds as it means to you.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

The bottom one is a watermelon split in half.

― Nick A. (Nick A.), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but it's that cantankerous old man thing -- I wanna grab 18 yr olds by their spikey, pin-peppered lapels or by their stylized faux-hawks and *SCHOOL THEM TO THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS*

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

to take yr metaphor, alex, the problem is that punk has no sovereignty. there is no visa application process to the world of punk (aside from the "cred" application, but you've gotta know/fuck someone to get a hold of that one). there are no definite borders. like all pop culture (and punk certainly qualifies these days), it's free floating for anyone to grab a hold of and twist and mutate -- even teenage girls from canada. and while i understand yr ire at this, it's also what keeps it a living thing -- those mutations, new affectations, reappropriations, etc., etc. wanna see a dead fucking genre? jazz. rules upon rules to follow cause the old folx grabbed it and still haven't let go (but i imagine norah's success on blue note might bend some ears back toward pop's way). and i know that you see all of this and i know that you understand, but you don't want the avril's of the world to encroach on yr territory. fair enough. but can you admit that genre negotiations can and will exist within punk?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

punk is still living?

― hello, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

no fishermen, jess, but his last band was called Dogs Playing Poker cause he already had a dogs playing poker t-shirt so it, like, worked out just perfect!

(this sounds snotty to my pops, but i love him and used to be in a southern rock band with him called Rock Bottom!)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

if they piss you off so much then maybe '77 style uniforms still do work perfectly well to inspire the desired effect in cantankerous old men! you're caught-22

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

alex sounds like they're having way more fun than you are

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

''wanna see a dead fucking genre? jazz. rules upon rules to follow cause the old folx grabbed it and still haven't let go''

erm...no!

its not all just a museum piece. there are some good recs (not only in jazz but everywhere elase too but we just don't have the time or at least i don't).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not saying that Punk was a militantly ruled, fenced-in community, patrolled by bloodthirsty snipers, but clearly Avril is not from the land of Punk despite trying to sneak across its borders by way of flimsily flying the colors.

I'd get more upset about this if I felt I could possibly be mistaken in some way, but I really am quite confident in my assertion that AVRIL LAVIGNE IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF PUNK ROCK IN THE SLIGHTEST!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

alex sounds like they're having way more fun than you are

Well, like they say...... IGNORANCE IS BLISS!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:28 (twenty-two years ago)

(rim-shot, final curtain)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

thank you everybody, goodnight!

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

is the land of punk anti-immigration?

i don't find avril particularly representative of "punk" either alex, but so many punk-rockers have dual citizenship in the land of pop (ramones, clash, vibrators, only ones, etc), and there's no reason why it can't go both ways.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

dear godot, are you coming or what? love, ilx ps bring pie

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

and punch

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

(benny hill music, and we all chase eachother offscreen)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread has been made possible by local 813: air vents, detachable skirts, old men, handbags, cartoon punks, and sign obscurers.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

also flags. don't forget the flags.

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

....and the ever understanding citizens of Turkmenistan.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it too late for me to add my two cents? Whatever.
Avril Lavigne is punk the same way those funny-looking kids who hang out at the local mall or strip-mall are punk: It's totally "I think, therefore I am." I always thought that "Punk" was whatever YOU yourself made it out to be. If you wanted it to be serious vehicle for change, fine. But it's no less fine if you want it to be something cheap and tawdry. It's just as legitamate either way. Think about it, "punk's" numerous incarnations encompass both skinheads AND the racial tolerant; thrash merchants AND jazzbos; rich kids AND gutter snipes. If Avril says shes a punk, she can be a punk. It's no skin off my back.

― Charles McCain, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

*nickalicious has an epiphone*

punk is hip-hop! hip-hop is punk! They're two sides of the same movement! And therefore Avril = Punk just as much as Eminem = hip-hop! It's all so clear now!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

epiphany is the word you're looking for.

Epiphone sounds like some sort've device for communicating with epileptics.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

no matter what your perspective on this dicussion, comparing Eminem to Avril in the way you just did makes me ill.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't Epiphone Gibson's "budget" line of Guitars etc?

― Charles McCain, Monday, 24 February 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(thought bubble) The borders of Turkmenistan aren't *real* either of course.

― Kim (Kim), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

TH!Z \/\//-\Z TEH B3ST B!T:

Oh for fuck's sake - fuck punk!

-- Kim (grimstitc...), February 24th, 2003.

J34H!1!!!1!

avr!l rulz fukc all yuo h@t@z

I (heart) avr!l threadz coz they're gr8!!1!1!11!!!

I AM M0R3 PuNK THaN aNY 0V YUO L@M3RZ C0Z I LUV PR0G ROX0R!1!1!1!1!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

BTW yes epiphone is gibson's cheapie guitar line EG my twin neck is an epiphone & it cost 600 quid "genuine" gibson twin neck = 3000 quid or something like that anyway

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

yeh - I was hardcore 'til I weakened by thinking about stuff.

― Kim (Kim), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Reading this thread makes me want to hear Mikey Wild's "I Was A Punk Before You Were A Punk."

― Jeff Sumner (Jeff Sumner), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:31 (twenty-two years ago)

bedtime snack = indie pop

no, indie pop is elevenses, clearly.

Now Avril vs Nelly Furtado, there's a thredd worth starting. Back in 2001, I thought she was the new Madonna, y'know. I've not been proved wrong yet.

Avril is as punk as Green Day or the Sex Pistols but not as punk as The Clash or The Levellers.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

BUT WAS ON HER GODDAMN COAT ALREADY?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

by all accounts it did indeed say "rock on".

can we resume normal service now and talk about something we usually talk about, like Av...oh, wait.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Was she wearing a bowtie and an ascot? That's a neat look, whatever it is.

― Epilady Ultra (Arthur), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 03:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I would like to address the fact that I have nothing on my shoulders, you fuXors.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

haha u r all gay lol

― Avril Lavigne, Tuesday, 25 February 2003 04:27 (twenty-two years ago)

BUT WAS ON HER GODDAMN COAT ALREADY?

http://www.weretwins.com/strikeforce:euler/capt1046050460

― Matt B. (Matt B.), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

This board is becoming embarassing. hahaha, all this fuss for "rock on"? "Fuck Norah Jones" is funnier.

― Andrzej B. (Andrzej B.), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 05:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex, I think the problem may stem from you (and lots of other people) confusing "punk" with "punk rock."

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 06:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Sheesh.

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

They would've had to cut away from it cos they could've put "FUCK YOU" in her coat or something - it was filmed live, no time delay.

Though I thought it was always live.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the problem may stem with you (and lots of other people) confusing "punk" and "punk rock" with "good" and "interesting."

― Robbie Turner, Tuesday, 25 February 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a new day. I've moved on from this thread. I think you all should as well. And I think Robbie Turner should eat a bowl of his own excrement.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

:-P

― Robbie Turner, Tuesday, 25 February 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"From what I can tell, the Ramones did nothing to earn the right to be punk - they just got up and made a band. Whose music was no less
polished than Avril's (for the time, etc)....."

She'll have "earned" the right to be punk, then, when she does ANY of the above, which was exactly what the Ramones did to earn that right! She didn't start her own band, doesn't write all her songs, doesn't really play that guitar much if at all, and her music is glossy and overproduced. And I think those were cooties on her coat! Alex, you are correct. She may represent what punk has come to mean to those with no sense of history, or those who have never listened to what punk WAS, but she's not A punk.

― matt riedl (veal), Wednesday, 26 February 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

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What was on Avril's coat?

BLURILLAZZZZ!!!― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

thread sabotage― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

bzzzzzzzzzzz

BLURILLAZZZZ!!!
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

thread sabotage
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)