I Confess : What sucks most about your musical tastes and attitudes ?

And then I heard a song on the radio with sweet hip-hop riddims and I was like "HEY I LIKE THIS" then I found out that it was M.I.A. and I was just another dork who likes M.I.A.

Attitudes : Frequent snobbery towards people who only care for music as a background noise (the 12-CD crowd), as well as people who only care about a very narrow range of music (sometimes including me).

Also on ILM I'm definitely guilty of hyper-defensive anti-anti-rockism, taking almost any reference to something being rockist as a personal attack on anyone who's ever fallen in love with any song with a guitar on it. Also I tend to attribute a lot of people's dismissive attitudes here to snobbery, but, uh, I'm probably right ;).

Can't stand techno or electronica unless heavily diluted with pop (o.k. computer is about as electronic as I can stand). Same with rap ("3 feet high and rising" is my only rap album)

Can't get "real" jazz, although I like "jazzy" rock and "jazzy" pop singers (Sinatra, Nat Cole, Dean Martin, et al.).

I get annoyed with obscuranist listeners, although I'm secretely proud of the one or two obscure things that I listen to. Similarly, I can't get poeple who only like "indie" music, even though most of my interests are "indie-rock."

Also: I can't listen to Grateful Dead (& Phish, etc) just cause I hate the fans so much, even though I REALLY like some of the tunes.

My biggest problem is that I get angry when someone doesn't like something that I play for them, when they clearly SHOULD like it (dammit). If someone likes Garbage, they should like My Bloody Valentine MORE (dammit).

Why are we like this? Why does music do this to us?

I love that quote in Ned's Momus interview about intelligence and loneliness; that is the best thing about chart pop to me, sharing it with others. I am alone A LOT so maybe that also helps explain my tastes.

Attitudes: Sorry if it seems like I'm taking the high road here, but I have a very utilitarian view of music. It's something that helps people get through the day, like having a sturdy table to set your drink on. Some people spend considerable energy searching for the best, others could give a shit, neither has an impact on my life. That's why topics here about FANS and GOOD TASTE V. BAD TASTE make little sense to me. It's pretty much my main interest, but nothing about what is happening in music, either with artists or music fans, makes me angry or even irritates me. At all. Really! Something that makes me angry is the guy in the house behind me shooting stray cats because they leave footprints on his truck. Not how obsessive Belle and Sebastian fans are, or that Amerindie rockers wear dorkie glasses, or how Radiohead fans fail to understand where the band sits on the experimental music continuum, or even that most people just pick up on whatever is played on the radio.

The reality is, no matter what you are looking for in music, no matter what you need, it is out there somewhere. The way global distribution is set up now, "music" doesn't need to change, it's all happening, all the time. The challenge is in figuring out what you want, not finding it.

Not sure how I got from there to here, so, uh, I guess I've nothing to confess, as far as attitude.

So Tarden, do you like Radiohead - I mean, do you like absolutely everything that becomes popular, just because it's popular? Do you mean that's a rule that you apply intentionally, or just a sort of intuition that you have about yourself? Or were you just joking?

I'm with Tracer Hand on "the code for living", although I've become a bit more relaxed about it in the past few years (mainly for taking so much shit about dancemusic and Miles Davis, that after years you finally think "sod it!"). Still I must confess that this year I've felt "wounded" by what people close to me have said about "Discovery" and "10.000Hz Legend". ILM has been good in this sense too, there's a neat distancing effect that makes a put-down of something you love just less hard (although Killing Joke fans obviously feel different ;)

2nd one is obvious, I take sardonic pleasure in putting down "Rockism" and esp. the canonical artists *unless* they're The Rolling Stones or Patti Smith. (...and ask yourself how does he know all these artists? Because he has heard every single record and owns Sister Marquee White Power Ladyland! They're just stuck on a lower shelf than all techno/house albums ;)

. . . connected to my question to Tarden: cos Tarden, are you saying you have a religious attitude to pop, a leap of faith thing? Don't worry I'm not damning your idea with faint understanding.

What sucks? I don't like and can't get into hip-hop. I can't say that I lose sleep over it, but maybe I'm missing something. The interest in nouveau chart pop say, Destiny's Child or Britney, is something else I don't 'get'. The music is pleasant enough, but any attempts at criticism or analysis seem like compemplating the precentage of Nitrogen in air. Before too long you begin wondering about the marketing plan and forget the tune.

Tastes: most of my dislikes cause me no soul-searching at all, unlike some of the other respondents so far. The idea that I should worry about not liking Black Box is incomprehensible to me. But there are two vast areas of music which I believe are important, profound, and perhaps beautiful, but of which I cannot speak. They are Classical Music and Jazz. These are 'gaps' the size of canyons. I don't know that they'll ever be filled, or bridged.

Attitudes: I have one feature which is limiting and prescriptive - namely, an utterly nostalgic approach to music. Anything I liked once I must, it seems, like forever; and this makes it hard for me ever to 'move on'.

Yeah anyway like Mr Pinefox said, a real paradox. I also know that I'm not "getting" classical music...I even like some of it, have a couple of "favourites"...but I'd totally avoid discussing it with anyone who really seems to know what they're talking about. Uh, that's just not having confidence, conviction in one's own tastes, is that the kind of thing we're talking about here?

BUT! this question! back to this fucking question! I'D been (I now see) EVADING it absolutely! the thing that's wrong with my taste in music? Just OBVIOUS - that it is still affected by OTHER people's tastes. I'm thirty-(mumble) years old & i still do that thing where if yr talking to someone whose ideas you respect you wait 'til they've said their bit before yo say what YOU think of something. That's terrible!
But on the + side(?), i suppose it proves that music still has some "social" "relevence" in my life - I was pretty sure that was a thing of the distant past.

Because my parents were born in South Africa, I have this perpetual fear that I am a racist (because I was told so many times by PC American liberals that all South Africans are racist, therefore we must be racists by extension). And I fear that I cannot get into hip-hop or rap *because* I am a racist. I can actually get into white indie-boy (and girl) rap like the Beastie Boys, or Luscious Jackson, or Beck, but I can't get any further.

I suspect that it is more to do with the *texture* of rap and hip-hop, because I listen to music for texture and harmony, rather than than lyrics or melody. (Lyrics are probably *the* least important thing for me in the enjoyment of music, while they are probably *the* most important element, in fact that defining element, in rap.) When I heaar rap or hip hop that *is* "psychedelic" or textural or "stoner rap", (early De La Soul and Cypress Hill spring to mind as examples) it *does* stick to my ear and make me happy.

But still, I worry. Isn't it the most white, middle class, racist thing in the world, to *worry* about being a racist?

This is making my head spin

However : even if I expressed no desire to listen to any "black" music, I wouldn't classify myself as a racist. There's a substantial difference between saying "*I* don't like this" and "This is (objectively) bad". It might be racist to assume that rap or hip- hop is simply terrible music, it's a different matter entirely to accept that this type of music doesn't do what *you* want music to do. That said, the rap and hip-hop I've heard has been satisfying on a sonic level, while pretty much failing to really speak to me on a personal level. But, like I mentioned above, I might download a Roots or A Tribe Called Quest (f'rinstance) song in a moment that could change all that. I haven't enjoyed any local rap or hip-hop that I've heard, perhaps that's something I should try and address. My lack of identification with these songs is probably a major obstacle. Because of the racial relations in my country ( still rife with tension, although definitely lessening ) I'm aware that my cultural experiences in South Africa differ wildly ( in most cases ) to the experiences of the people making this music. But if said music doesn't connect with me, should I strain to appreciate it in the name of, what, Political Correctness? I don't believe my relationship with any black person that I might meet would hinge on my enjoyment of hip- hop. Nor do all black people listen to rap and hip-hop. I apologize for the rambling, but these are things I have to order in my mind.

And Nick- we're here for you.

As for fear of hip-hop, I don't think anyone need feel that it's strictly a race issue. Nor is it really a musical issue. I think for many, it's an issue of culture and cultural content---the association of much mainstream hip-hop with attitudes that border not only on misogyny or homophobia but also materialism and anti- intellectualism and etc. etc. This can be a huge barrier with appreciation of popular music, which tends to put a lot of emphasis on the listener's association with the artist as an individual whose personal expression is worthwhile---and particularly hip-hop, which tends to be more about lifestyle and attitude and verbal content that music per se. This probably explains why non-hip-hop-listening indie kids tend to dig "positive" hip-hop acts---De La Soul, Tribe, etc.--- who general presentation is a few notches closer to the sort of reserved, cerebral model so favored among indie folk.

All of which is to say: that's most of why *I* don't dig hip-hop, and as a black person, I think I can cast the race issue aside.

i think i like some mainstream "negative" hip-hop. i like the beats, the samples, and the use of voices. i sometimes enjoy the emotions associated with the "negative" attitudes. i like big black too. so do a number of "reserved, cerebral" indie rockers. (did we go through punk so we could have reserved and cerebral?)

Anyway... I've been thinking more on the issue, and wondering what it is about the music that doesn't engage me. What is important to me in music, in descending order is 1) texture 2) harmony (and interesting harmonics) 3) melody 4) rthythem (can't even spell it, how can I appreciate it) 5) lyrics.

The more I think about hip hop or rap, I realise that it's nothing even to do with race, or with culture, but simply that the *principle* elements of the genres - lyrics and rhtyhm - are the two musical elements least important to me.

I don't seek it out...but then I don't seek out anything. But when I hear it I find the lyrics amusing (in the same way as the writings of Stewart Home).

After all that, I don't even sympathise with Cobain, before you go thinking.

This is interesting to me because most characteristics of pop music that shift units are easily identified, analyzed and critiqued by those who frequent this board (there are a lot of smart people hanging out here!) There is no loss of words in explaining Britney, or even Creed.

The violence in hip-hop is easy to explain, at least in terms of the U.S. Violence is everywhere, so why not in music? People get some kind of visceral thrill from hearing the description of carnage; same way Pulp Fiction got the blood pumping, or Doom or Quake or whatever.

The misogyny is tougher. I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of those who bought Dre's 2001 are men. If it were all men listening to this stuff, then I'd have to say most guys hearing those lyrics are getting some kind of assurance from them. Having their fear of women relieved by song after song putting the "hos" in their place, reducing half the population to nothing more than "something to poke on."

Eminem sold like ten million records, which just can't be done if everybody is thinking either "Hmmm, this is an interesting portrait of a disturbed individual…what an artful statement" or just ignoring the words altogether, which are in your face and high in the mix for the whole album. In addition to chuckling at his clevery wordplay, lots of people are FEELING what Eminem is saying, on some level. They have to be. Maybe they're all just impressionable kids, maybe not. But critics discussing Eminem have not scratched the surface of his appeal, I don't think.

Lauryn Hill - of the little I've heard (just the single I've heard on the MTV, unfortunately) some of it I thought was texturally intriguing, but unfortunately I got really turned off by the gargling, cut-up, jumpy, jerky production style. I know it's ground-breaking and so influential that even Whitney Houston wanted some of it, but the production style really got in the way of the music for me.

Wu-Tang Clan - all the other silliness, the image, the stunts, the idiocy got in the way of my even being able to take them seriously enough to actually listen to what was going on in the music.

Public Enemy - yes, liked them enough to own one of the albums, though it's back in storage so I couldn't tell you which one. In fact, I've seen them live, too. On tour with the Sisters of Mercy of all people (I can just imagine both bands saying to their booking agents "Get me the BLACKEST band that you can find for support" and ending up with each other.) What appealed to me was the beautifully textured sample collage of their music, more than the lyrical content. Sonically interesting music, that's what I'm talking about. Yes.

I don't know. The only thing I can really think is... this *is* just a backlash. Progress, when viewed from above, is not a straight line, but a series of zig-zags that only look like a straight line when viewed from a distance. Backlashes cannot last forever, and if we just keep going, then when it is all over, we'll be a little bit closer to an equilibrium.

Wild MEN with Steak-Knives = Eminem?

During the last few months I've been listening to a lot of Cash Money Records' records, where violence, materialism and misogyny are all present and (in)correct. Needless to say, these records sold extremely well, not just because they did a better job of presenting themselves as more 'real' or 'gangsta' than everyone else (you scared of Lil' Wayne?), but because aggression was not just limited to the lyrics and visuals: Compare Mannie Fresh's Cash Money work or Swizz Beats' production for Jay-Z and DMX with those of Indie rap producers - most of them (except El Producto and a couple of others) just don't cut the mustard. Fresh's beats aren't just 'good': they are the bones of memorable songs, such as the magnificent 'Back That Azz Up'. With a Mannie Fresh produced album, rhythm becomes not king (a recent and hopefully short-lived pop obsession) but adaptable component, all mean and ready for battle.

The 'gangsta' raps themselves are often genuinely witty and clever. They have to be: the ideas that the Hot Boys and the Big Tymers are offering were first spat out by the likes of NWA and (gulp) the 2 Live Crew over a decade ago. Nevertheless, the 'commercial' hiphop (and I mean Juvenile and Jay-Z and not the 'keeping it real' rap-and- scratch of Mobb Deep, C-N-N et al) of the last couple of years has consistently out-imagined and out-thrilled its indie rivals, and attitude's got very little to do with it.

None of this is 'negative', by the way. Unless you're worried for your kids, in which case you had better switch off now.

At what point do I admit defeat?

- a fear of/fascination with my own adolescence and unresolved issues therein which leads me to my current (3 yrs and counting) backlash against 'indie'

- deadly low attention span

Still it just strikes me that the intentions behind IDM records are so suspect. I mean what are these guys trying to do? Do they have any aim? Maybe that's the point I'm missing. I really don't know and frankly I don't want to know.

Also I am fiercely cranky about people's prejudices against dancefloor dance music which I feel will never really be critically recognised, yadda yadda yadda. Also I'm developing a complex over Orbital, Chemical Bros, Underworld/any other popular dance act and it's fans not being 4 real enough to like the club derivatives of these acts.

What else? Jesus now I start I could go on all day......

I'm more talking about the fact that the actual club scene at which Orbital might DJ is mainly centred on singles. And the vast majority of people never hear these singles. They generally have their own appeal independent of the albumdance bands I named. I think it's odd because alot of the singles surface months later, and the ones which don't are still quite catchy. That is to say I'm not talking about some underground thing here, I just think there's genuine potential for more people to hear this music.

I suppose it's a singles versus albums thing.

Me? I guess I'm just not ready to accept poptimism outright. I realise this is frowned upon in IL-circles, but for whatever it's worth I can't understand the appeal behind so-called manufactured pop bands. And yes, I've heard all the reasons why I shouldn't NOT like them ("All bands are commercial", "You enjoy it on its sonic merits" etc) but really I feel most pop (as in Britney or whoever's the top of the charts these days) is aimed at an entirely different demographic from mine. Then again I've come round to the fact ABBA were an incredible band, a band who spawned the girl and boy groups of today and yet no-one has hit quite those emotions since AFAIK.

I'm also quite rubbish when it comes to Garage and Grime - it's not fast or slow enough for this white ass to do anything other than wiggle a bit and then sit back down confused.

I will say, though, that I have a tendency to love things for what I think are purely ironic reasons. Like, I love Meatloaf. I'm not sure if it's because I love "Paradise by the Dashboard Lights" because it's a fucking incredible song, or because it's so cheesy and bombastic that I love it for how bad it is. I honestly don't know - I guess it's probably both. I don't know if that makes me less of a genuine music fan, to like something for how "bad" it is. "My Humps" gives me lots of joy, and I'm pretty sure I only like it because it's so fucking retarded. I'm gonna go with dancing like an idiot in the club over not having fun because I'm not actually "enjoying" the song, though.

in theory I'm a reasonable man. I believe there's no fundamental, objective difference in quality between, say, paris hilton and stravinsky - it all depends on the criteria you use to assess a piece of work.

but beneath the surface I'm a complete snob and I hate pop music. I find grown men obsessing over teeny music such as kelly clarkson or timberlake highly disturbing. I have an instinctively averse reaction to jauntiness. I am disgusted by synchronised dancing. I don't see catchiness as a virtue; quite the opposite. deep down, I suspect that the current vogue among adults for children's music designed by marketing departmetns is a passing hipster fad. please forgive me.

but at the same time I'm a hypocrite. I like a fair amount of adolescent metal. like I said, please forgive me.

I'm bored by repetitive beats and value complexity. therefore dance music and hip hop are closed worlds to me. I have tried, but I have found nothing of worth there. I fear this is an omission, but it's not one I care about. this makes me feel guilty.

I love jazz, noise, heavy prog, hardcore punk, japanese oddities, various 'world' musics and far-out experimental weirdness. I consider pushing the envelope to be a virtue in and of itself. forgive, etc.

I hate so many canonical 'icons' that I wonder whether I hate them simply because they're icons and I'm a contrary git...bowie, dylan, neil young, the stones, the pistols, the clash, madonna, pink floyd, etc, etc. then I wonder if I'm a boring old fart because I like the beatles, the doors and tim buckley. hypocrite. confused hypocrite.

I care far too much about music and nowhere near enough about anything else.

but at the same time I'm a hypocrite. I like a fair amount of adolescent metal. like I said, please forgive me.

YEh, that sums me up pretty much.

online, from the states, but just abt politics mostly

After 30 years of being into music (on and off), you start to see how inbred rock's family tree is; I've liked Thee Hydrogen Terrors, Tight Bros, Magik Markers, Deerhoof, and assorted freakyfolky stuff in recent years, but it's always with a "been there, heard that" attitude that precludes me from searching further or being long-term excited about it.

As a long-time lurker here, I've been most often amused by threads about music I don't particularly like, e.g. the one-named
prefab divas (they're all Little Eva With Attitude, aren't they?) with designer beats and industrial-strength marketing. They all sound much the same to me. While the practices of Phil Spector and Berry Gordy could have been called "assembly line" long ago, they seem more like outsider art compared to today's music-industry Henry Fords. You can have your Model T in any color you like, as long as it's a hue of Timbaland or Storch.

(I do, however, like Justin, in small doses.)

I'm also tickled at how music marketed to teens and tweens, who don't have rivers of pop history running through their heads (i.e. the ideal consumer), is inexplicably
overanalysed by middle-aged individuals who can't seem to let go of the shiny-shiny products of the entertainment-industrial complex — for fear of not being "with it", perhaps. Is it a "life gives you lemons" thing for xhuxk and Kogan? Here's a clue folks: Paul Anka is better in 2006 than he was in 1957. Which isn't saying much, actually.

NP: a whole bunch of Herbie Nichols, on WKCR.

I have little interest in classical or opera or lots of other things.

I tried Beefheart once and frankly could not be arsed.

For all my talk of "listening properly" I still don't find enough time between other things to do enough of that to not feel guilty, and so do rely on the iPod and the commute. Although I still have better headphones than most.

I could carry on for ages.

The thought of the new Beyonce or Justin album fills me with instant ennui (and dig my CoM cheerleading for both back in the 2003 day).

Whereas I'm looking forward to the new M Ward, the new Bonnie Prince Billy, and *whisper it* the new Junior Boys.

but so is the new justin!

"I get much more out of Lambchop or Wilco than..."

jesus, you guys really have given up. should we take you out behind the barn and shoot you?

You stupid fucking idiot.

xpost

My tastes appear to be going in exactly the opposite direction from yours, Sick Mouthy!

Speaking of jesus, here's my confession: To a much greater extent than I would like to admit, my tastes are influenced by the "praise and worship" music I heard at my parents' church between the ages of 8 and 16.

I wish there were a better reason why I prefer the beautiful/epic over the gritty/urban, but I suspect that most of the reasons I've come up with are largely a cover-up...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/njsouthall/journeytoworkpluskids038.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/njsouthall/journeytoworkpluskids032.jpg
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Eskiboy doens't WORK on your iPod if you walk along a Devon seawall to get to the train station every morning. You'd look and feel like a cretin.

And Scott, as for the "tedium" and "couldn't write a memorable song" stuff, well, has it occured to you that different people like different records and that doens't make them morons or Nazis? Wilco and Lambchop are two deliberately contentious artists that I used; I could have easily said Guillemots or Midlake or Faux Pas or Patrick Wolf or whatever. Or Embrace! Or Final Fantasy or blah blah blah. But I know full-well what signifiers Wiclo carry on this board. What IS memorable or not tedious to you? People have different brains, dude.

What type of attitude is that? Cognitive dissonance is a brilliant thing.

I'm kind of done with free jazz and noize-ish stuff, but I'm not feeling a lot of mainstream jazz either (esp. piano or guitar-heavy stuff).

I think reggaeton kind of sucks.

I don't listen to classical music and that makes me feel kind of dumb, musically.

I don't really like indie rock or punk rock and have never listened to Pavement, Yo La Tengo, etc. etc., but I do like the rock bands that my friends play in.

Cognitive dissonance is a brilliant thing.

Yeah but I don't always want it from music.

I have no problem suspending my disbelief where 'manufactured' pop is concerned but I DO need some amount of effortlessness in the final product to get there. Which may be rockist who knows. But I don't really like rock music that strikes me as 'meta' either so there could be something consistent in this.

You see, that's what Otis Redding did, except it was the manner of his bleat which mattered, and the emotions behind it, plus the Stax beat was anything but a dull plod - I mean, Al Jackson FFS!

I also have trouble listening to music where "the drummer sucks". However, I don't feel I'm missing as much there.

I love how the poptimist Nazis never ever ever recognise that maybe, just maybe, they're being as small-minded as the people they bitch about AND THEN SOME.

lots of stuff! almost everything that isn't wilco! i want to save people with brains from wilco! cuz their is SO MUCH stuff out there that is truly memorable and vibrant and entertaining and exciting, and they have always struck me as deadly and dudly. but that's cool. yeah, we are all different. your home looks like my home.

feh.. R'n'B is just pop with a bit more 'soul' (in the black sense) to me. The hardest thing to get your head around is just that there's a whole different canon of approaches to writing a sappy love song that if you've grown up an indie kid take some getting used to. Sounding like a huge r'n'b fan myself now... I don't go looking for it, but then I don't go in search of good indie rock like it actually matters these days either.. both are a little peripheral to my general tastes.

what? the attitude of all poptimists i know, dom and ed o apart, to the charts is basically "botherd. do people still buy cd singles?"

The Rolling Stones had some cool singles.

And there's no indie rock or metal or nu-emo that presses these same buttons for you?

x-post

The trouble is the flipside of that for a lot of house people seems to be the deathly dull purism and real ale soul/jazz/funkateer-ness of the "been there done that I NOW KNOW MYSELF FULLY" tedious worthiness crowd.

In the middle I guess would be Inaya Day.. who I can get along with fine.

-- DJ Mencap

no, there's tons!

and I'm not even going to start on emo/nu-compression-rock (i.e. whatever the hell kids punk about to lately).

But what I find with most older R'n'B and Soul is that the songs actually touch me and don't just contain empty paens to nothing at all. "He's Mistra Know It All", "Ain't No Sunshine", "What's Going On" to name but three which actually have well thought out lyrical content. And although my knowledge of Otis is pretty slim, as you say it is the manner of his singing which matters whereas many of the female (and male) R'n'B groups coming out are carbon-copying what has gone before with the emotion disappearing each time.

Most of the sins that I feel that I had when I was younger I think I've shed. I used to consider myself an elitist gladly, while listening to the metal/industrial hybrids of the '90s (KMFDM, Stabbing Westward, etc.), something that embarrasses me now when I go back to listen to those bands.
But what I'd feel most sucks now is that I always feel like I have a really superficial understanding of music, especially music theory as it relates to the music I like. I like a lot of skronk jazz or weird psych or even radio pop, but I frequently stumble on explaining why I like it. I also don't like that people around me still seem to think of me as a snob when I try really hard not to be. I think that I give things a fair listen (though I'll also confess that I rarely give music the type of deep alienated attention that I did when I was younger), and then either I like 'em or I don't, and I don't ever feel like I'm telling other people that they can't like something (though I will admit that when I write my column that I tend to be overly-dismissive some times), but it's rare that I actively hate something. Far more often I'm just bored by it. I've been told it's because I'm not a musician that I can't understand why Wilco is so great, but frankly, they (especially recently) just bore the hell out of me. I kinda wish that I got it and could get the same thrill that other people seem to, and that's a recurring longing. I remember feeling it when hearing about Notwists' Neon Golden. The album just bores me, and I'd like to be able to understand what other people get out of it, but I can't. And again, I've been told that this is because I don't play an instrument, so I don't understand how music is constructed. And I worry, because more and more music that I see lauded feels the same way for me: not bad, just unexciting. I get a thrill out of Christina's No Other Man, but the whole Paris Hilton album leaves me cold. I want to be able to hear it the way Lex does, but I can't seem to.

OTM. Yes, extreme Rockism is tedious, I don't count myself as Rockist because I listen to almost everything other than "commercial" pop and R'n'B, but a lot of the Poptimists do literally go around like a gestapo. The Lily Allen thread is absolutely incredible - I still don't know if some people were joking or not about her not being "real" and then banging on about Girls Aloud being "real". I mean, that's just Rockist ideology superimposed onto pop isn't it?

(I sort of agree about the carbon-copying but not to the point where I'd feel comfy making it a blanket statement, as I say I don't listen to that much r'n'b!)

"Macho" is the wrong word. I want to say something politically incorrect like "House is for girls and gays" to paraphrase matey-boy upthread.

I know that it's been through the consumerist mill and therefore I can take that into account in listening, therefore I don't have to treat it with any exaggerated respect that might get in the way of my loving it or taking part in it. I can get my claws in and tear it open and build myself a nest inside and make up my own ideas about what it means, and who for. All of that fuss and bother happened so that I could have a relationship with this one song! It's pretty beautiful, when you think about it.

Also, dudes, it just sounds better.

still not really sticking up for r'n'b with this tho'... main difference with nu-soul (I think that's what ILM calls it ;) ) stuff is it doesn't have the _steel_ in the production which I suspect also helps to dehumanize the lyrics for a lot of people.

The probable reason why more people don't confess to being lukewarm about contemporary R&B is fear of the racist card being played.

Also, dudes, it just sounds better.

haha this is so ridiculously otm and also the entire text of an entirely separate email discussion i've been having today!!!!

I disagree.

What matters is what the LISTENER gets out of the end product, regardless of what the artist put into it, and the process by which s/he did so.

haha, sophie h

When I listen to "Good Vibrations" I don't think about Mike Love flicking wet towels at the back of Brian's head, nor of the state of Brian's mind at the time.

When I listen to "Be My Baby" I don't think about its singer being kept a prisoner in her own home by the guy who produced the record.

You impose your own interpretation of what these records mean as combinations of sounds, as unions of words and music, so subjectively it doesn't matter how much blood was spilt in their making.

I'm not sure it matters to me anymore that I don't like much new club dance music tho this was bothering me for some time.

Doglatin's posts still kinda depress me tho.

I disagree.

Me too. Absolutely without question.

you do both. it depends on the context in which you hear the record. if you hear eg 'stars are blind' on the radio without knowing who is singing it, obv you will hear it is a good/bad record and this reaction will be 100% divorced from your sense of who paris hilton is. but that's NOT the way we hear most records - with most of them, even if we're not coming at it with the pre-listening baggage of what we think of paris hilton as a celebrity, we will be coming at it with some...expectation which has nothing to do with the actual sound. this could be "last time i heard this artist hey sounded like this" or "last time i read about this artist she was splitting up with her boyfriend" or "what i've heard about this album makes me excited to hear it" or...any amount of information which is already in our brains about anything to do with the product.

but surely when you see Brian perform Smile you're influenced by knowing what went before?

If Syd Barrett had decided to release a record 5 year ago wouldn't you approach it with more than "I wonder if Syd's new record's any good" in your head.

When you reviewed Aerial didn't you have "12 years in the making" in your head as you played it for the first time?

totally true.

If I'm aware of what went into a record I can't ignore that when I hear the record.

By 'these records' do you mean those two specific records, or records of their type which in your opinion are Great, or all records?

I don't think about the artist story behind each record (I have real problems with relating songs to a person's private life), that's not what I meant, I'm sorry I was confusing. It's just that I don't find the process which goes into producing a manufactured-pop record any more distracting than the process than goes into a different record; knowledge of the existence of both affects my listening, and I know it, and I'm fine with that. In fact I often find it less distracting with manufactured pop, because it's overt, it's not a shimmer at the corner of your eye that disappears and reappears when you turn your head.

xposts i know fandango! it's weird and wrong and confusing, but to me it doesn't appear backwards!

Anyway, I am actually, honestly, very happy indeed with my musical tastes and attitudes: I don't think there's anything that sucks about them.

this is why I make it a point not to read interviews before I hear someone's music for the first time. I don't need to know anything about them or how the record was made in order to find out whether I like it or not. it's better to approach new art with a completely open mind if at all possible.

same here! there isn't anything i won't listen to. i love listening. i am always constantly amazed and surprised by stuff at the ripe old age of 37 going on 38. i am open to anything. i will end up liking m.ward and wilco someday. actually, i don't have anything against m.ward either. just not very exciting to me. i poke fun at the guys at the record store cuz they are always listening to those dreary guys. iron&wine, buckner, ward, ad infintum. they have their place! like when i'm record shopping.

(Sorry).

Re: current discussion. I think one of the problems with being a massive music fan is that it can be hard to step away from the picture and listen to music on its own merits. The first single I ever bought when I was 9 years old was Pat'n'Mick's "Shake Your Party Down" (or something). I didn't know it was a cover version. I didn't know who Pat Sharp was other than he presented "Fun House" on CITV. I had no idea who Mick Brown was either. I just liked the songs. Since then I've become increasingly addicted to music. I have also learnt a bunch of instruments and music programs. I know how much effort it is to try and form a band and write decent songs that don't suck and therefore my respect for the creative and musical processes increases. It was only, for instance, that someone pointed out to me the exact scope of Brian Wilson's genius that I began appreciating the Beach Boys and learning about the different thought processes and conflicts going on on each album. Previous to that I'd seen them as a cheesy worthless 60's boyband with a couple of silly tunes about surfing.

Also, not listening to "pop" does NOT = listening to fucking emo, are you 9?!

so authenticity comes in the middle of the night, while you're sleeping, and you wake up finding its sticky traces in the sheets?

so authenticity comes in the middle of the night, while you're sleeping, and you wake up finding its sticky traces in the sheets?

yeah. actually.

Was that at me? I can't see anything else that it might reference on here. It wasn't what I meant, I literally just wondered if cis was singling "pop" as a genre out for overproduction or cynicism or whatever. A lot of people do

-- The Lex (alex.macpherso...), September 7th, 2006."

He's PROUD to not have any idea who David Byrne is! I guess "willful ignorance" is not a "personal attitude."

Fuck, I'd be glad not to know who David Byrne is!

This is me too.

eugene wilde
firefall
vic damone
opus seven
the beck family
apache
j.c. philips
2 live crew
southern contemporary rock ensemble
dave valentin
jo march
kay armen
axe
t.c. curtis
sister sledge
e.q.
john anderson
new edition
ray gomez
snapper
nick straker band
herbie hancock
teddy pendergrass
randy crawford
george benson
john o'banion
garrison & van dyke
whitesnake
betty madigan
the godz (70's version)
little anthony
guy
b.j. thomas
ian lloyd
angel city
bruce roberts
spyro gyra
scott jarrett
jonathan edwards
ronnie laws
don rondo
lazy racer
al caiola
heat
the dramatics
chris rea
the will bronson singers
barbara law
toad hall
bad company
jewel blanch
tom sparks
point blank
spider
phil davis
spinners
nantucket
jimmy roselli
billy swan
warren storm
jeff cannata
pete hanley
georgio
the jets
john davis & the monster orchestra
millie jackson
lionel cartwright
loose ends
the right choice
tommy tutone
dr.strut
leon ware
alfonzo surrett
j.silver ("(Baby Let Me) Bang Your Box". love that one. especially all the mentions of mr.bill. oh noooooooooo!)
candi
charly mc clain
jo jo zep & the falcons
zed
danny davis & the nashville brass
jubai
gary bonner
kool & the gang
dolores hawkins
thunder
peter brown
shawn phillips
the greenwood singers
mary lou turner
jonathan mars
liner
hilly michaels
taffy mcelroy
the whites
tasha thomas
wild cherry
sharon ridley
don king
love committee
booker t
bunny debarge
frank marino & mahogany rush
sheela conroy
round trip
aquarian dream
jackie de shannon
sounds of sunshine
cugini
marion worth
the blue boys
googie and tom coppola
face dancer (not to be confused with face dancers! who i love!)
southern exposure
mtume
earl scruggs revue
sabu
tantrum
the inmates
sweat band
thrills
buddy miles regiment
fotomaker
the kings
the motors
starbuck
the chocolate jam company
mass production
clout
rona
dickey lee
robin trower
the limit
kathy zory
mother's finest
court pickett
lonnie youngblood
andy kim
style
blancmange
gabriel
nancy martinez
jona lewie

i like the funeral song. that has to be his best song. isn't it? it's undeniable. i can live without him for the most part though.

Maybe, maybe not. She's pretty exceptional. Also, in the golden age of Egyptian popular music, there were always just a few extremely exceptional singers at the topic of the pyramid (as it were). Have you see that Topic compilation of Egyptian female singers (from the 1920s/30s, I think it was)? Sorry to swoop down as soon as her name came up. Anyway, I guess your larger point stands about unpacking the history of music from other cultures.

nowhere near.

--(cis)

Well, literally, yes. To the extent this is true, though, it's mere tautology. And if you mean that, therefore, one must consider process in considering the end product, I disagree totally, utterly and completely.

I still hate that kind of music, more because the hype is generally undeserved, but I feel that sometimes I can miss out on a perfectly good song because of this.

I'm sure we've all got these blind spots: I loose all judgement with 1955-60 rockabilly and 1980-85 American underground stuff. Everthing on Sun, Chess or smaller lables of the time I like, and with the latter era, anything on Slash/SST/AT etc I'll like.

I can identify with all the folks wishing they were into an even more diverse slate - there are tons of genres and styles I want to dig, but don't (yet)... but I don't worry about it too much. I've been exposed to stuff, often by great sources, and it just hasn't taken hold... that's just me, no big deal. Over a lifetime, there's plenty of time for more to "click"... I'm actually trying to focus on revisiting and appreciating all the music I already have, getting back into stuff I've lost touch with, etc.

2) I have a bit of a hair trigger about people who insist on dissing hip-hop. Even though I don't listen to nearly as much rap as I used to, it's been an undeniable influence on my personal musical aesthetic, and I get very frustrated with people who roll out the same anti-rap arguments again & again. I always end up thinking: "It's been nearly 30 years since 'Rapper's Delight' and you're still whining about hip-hop? Either accept that it's not going away (and, maybe, find something to like about it), or kindly shut the fuck up."

3) Sometimes I can't tell when people are enjoying things ironically or in earnest, and it has the potential to completely fuck up my vibe for the night. I was at a bar a few nights ago, waiting for an acqaintance's band to go on, when the resident DJ dropped Lisa Lisa & The Cult Jam's "I Wonder If I Take You Home" (classic), much to the delight of the early-twentysomething crowd. And I was too busy trying to figure out if people were dancing because they liked the song, or because "HA HA, OMG THE EIGHTIES" to have a good time myself.

Then again, maybe you're annoyed because they have all the training but can't do a damn memorable thing with it, much. (A stance I fully appreciate.)

I still have a few faults though:

- I've been pretty knee-jerk anti-indie over the past few years.
- I'm prone to dismiss anything with hype surrounding it.
- I don't follow Hip-Hop or R&B, even though I know there is plenty of stuff I would like.
- I don't spend time the time getting to intimately know a record like I used to. Too much surface level listening of a wide variety of records, when I should be reaping the rewards contained in the gems that truly "hit" me.
- I'm an opinionated bastard when it comes to music, so I have to be careful discussing music with the majority of people I know. I mostly enjoy discussing music with other opinionated bastards who can quantify their opinions.

-- deej.. (clublonel...), September 7th, 2006.

No Catholic upbringing.

hi dere i hate my tastes dey are borne out of fear
-- Tim Ellison (thefriendlyfriendlybubbl...), September 7th, 2006.

Catholic upbringing.

I overthink music - I can't just relax and enjoy a piece of music, the mind's always on overdrive analyzing it. I historically contextualize music (dud?) - imagining its relationship to the time it was made, the artist's discography, impact on others.

Everything you need to know about authenticity comes out of the speakers. But when I was a teenager Tim Cronin taught me the sacred art of being able to tell whether a record sucks or not by looking at its cover, and some small part of me still belives in such arcane witchcraft.

I'm indie-schizo. I find M Ward, Elliott Smith, Iron & Wine, Devendra Banheart, and Bright Eyes boring. I've tried and failed several times to listen to a Wilco album all the way through. But I'm a sucker for oddballs and wackos like Marc Eitzel, Cat Power, Antony, Joanna Newsom, Faun Fables, Daniel Johnston. I like Neko Case, Arcade Fire, and Destroyer, but not The New Pornographers. I don't like Pavement but thought the first Strokes was a good listen. Huh?

I think in terms of "ultimate expressions" e.g. Iron Maiden's Killers was the ultimate expression of the NWOBHM.

I'm hung up on the concept of music as ecstatic and rebellious Dionysian abandon (but I can't stand The Doors).

I dislike music that tries too hard, or not hard enough.

I'm suspicious of fun and earnestness.

I don't mind pretentiousness, except when you haven't earned it.

I can't listen to mainstream radio.

Here's a comp I put together recently. My jukebox is rebellious.

Be Your Own Pet - "Adventure"
Pink Fairies - "Do It"
Public Image Ltd. - "Public Image"
Pink Floyd - "See Emily Play (mono)"
Nas - "One Mic"
Suburban Lawns - "Janitor"
David Shire - "Main Title" from The Taking of Pelham 1,2,3
Big Daddy Kane - "Raw"
Dog of Mystery - "Willoughby (The Insect God)"
Pretenders - "Night In My Veins"
Ultramagnetic MCs - "Critical Beatdown"
Napoleon XIV - "They're Coming To Take Me Away Ha Ha"
King Crimson - "Larks Tongue In Aspic Pt 2 (live)"
Kas Product - "Man of Time"
Loop - "Ghost Rider"

haha I am catholic! I was confirmed and everything. I save my self-loathing and guilt for shit that matters, like s3x.

OTM. Except I don't know any "other opinionated bastards" IRL.

When it comes to more obscure acts, I like to see who's getting the best critical notices and biggest cult following. I worship power and always like to be on the winning side. (Maybe it's because I DON'T understand pop and trust that collective wisdom must have some implicit worth.)

― tarden, Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:00 PM (9 years ago)

"When it comes to more obscure acts, I like acts that have lots of fans and critical accolades, and are not all that obscure."

Ladies and gentlemen, Dave Q.

I don't believe in guilty pleasures. I believe in pleasures without guilt. Some people have a problem with this.

lol I am so embarrassed by my early post on this thread

I have no idea when it was posted because it clearly was not actually 2000

Gosh, reading this thread back, I really was angry five years ago.

The two things that I feel are weaknesses in my taste these days are pretty minor concerns to me, because neither of them stops me enjoying music at all, which is when they would become problematic.

Anyway, those two things are thus:

1. I feel like a dilettante. I always have to some extent. I've never delved deeply into any one particular genre, never become an expert or specialist about one kind of music, be that jazz or techno or indierock or anything else. All the genres and styles and almost all the artists I like, I like really superficially, and sometimes I feel like this means I'm missing out on some kind of depth of experience. Then again, that depth of knowledge also strikes me as being really boring. Which. Guess is why I never bothered to acquire it about anything.

2. I have increasingly less time for hip hop, possibly because I'm increasingly less bothered about lyrics, and I've never really been bothered by wordplay skillzor. Fascinations with Timbaland, Missy, Outkast and a few others besides I pretty much only like old canonical boring stuff like Tribe and De La and PE that I've liked forever. Kate says upthread that she doesn't find much of sonic appeal in a lot of hip hop and I think that's a big part of it; I don't listen to music for lyrics, as a rule, so a form that's based on lyrics is always going to be difficult for me, especially when the lyrics are generally about lifestyles very very alien to my own and at I have pretty much zero interest in.

Other minor considerations are genre black holes - pop country, metal, opera. I've not investigated classical much yet but I'm waiting until I'm old for that, perhaps.

don't wait, dive in

so many regrets:

1) like SM, i'm a dilettante. i lack the curiosity and dedication that might drive me to deeply explore the artists and genres that interest me. instead, i flit from one shiny object from the next.

2) i don't listen to music all the time. even now, while doing nothing but posting alone in my apartment, i'm not listening to anything. i don't want to. i prefer the silence.

3) i'm attracted to obscurity and the idea that i'm "with it," that i'm aware of and into secretly cool music. this makes me feel that my tastes are dishonest, that i'm trying to define myself through music rather than simply enjoying it on its own terms.

4) my tastes have become ossified. the indie punk aesthetics and musical values of my youth still dominate my taste and thinking. unfortunately, i never actually want to listen to 80s indie punk, unless i'm drunk. it's become boring to me.

I like a lot of music which simply cannot be enjoyed in group. I'm also always late to the game: I will start taking interest in a couple of yesteryear's biggest pop hits when everybody is already tired of hearing them.

The good thing is every now and then I'll hit just the right spot and give my friends their new favorite songs so they still think I've got a good, varied taste despite my obsession with playing the boring, obscure stuff at parties.

3) Sometimes I can't tell when people are enjoying things ironically or in earnest, and it has the potential to completely fuck up my vibe for the night. I was at a bar a few nights ago, waiting for an acqaintance's band to go on, when the resident DJ dropped Lisa Lisa & The Cult Jam's "I Wonder If I Take You Home" (classic), much to the delight of the early-twentysomething crowd. And I was too busy trying to figure out if people were dancing because they liked the song, or because "HA HA, OMG THE EIGHTIES" to have a good time myself.

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), sábado 9 de septiembre de 2006 20:07 (4 years ago)

Maybe it's popularity had something to do with the Black Eyed Peas paraphrasing it?

i listen to too many white people who don't really deserve my time.

Yeah I kinda hate when white people appropriate a black rooted genre just to make it dorky and easy. Ironically, maybe due to racism in the 20th century they always seemed to fare better than the usually more tasteful black pioneers.

eg: reggae, blue eyed soul, hip hop, blues...

so many white people fair better at hip-hop and reggae than black people

o_O

Ok I actually meant that usually it was the white people who helped the genre break through. Eric Clapton was heavily responsible for reggae's incursion in the pop charts and the beastie boys' Licensed to Ill was the first rap album to hit ·1 on the charts. I don't mean nowadays, hopefully we're already way past musical racism.

Eric Clapton recorded a cover version that was included on his album, 461 Ocean Boulevard. It is the most successful version of the song, peaking at #1 on the Billboard Hot 100, becoming Clapton's only chart-topping hit in the U.S.

"Ice Ice Baby" was the first hip hop single to top the Billboard charts. Topping the Australian, Dutch, Irish, Italian and UK charts, the song helped diversify hip hop by introducing it to a mainstream audience.

crut i think ur post at the top is p self-aware and funny btw

so many white people fair better at hip-hop and reggae than black people

o_O

well, commercially, this is often true. the white pop artists who adapt black-rooted genres (in moka's language) have often seemed to win attention and commercial success more easily than the black artists that inspired them. this seems to have been very true in the mid 20th century, up through the early hip hop era. perhaps it's less of a factor nowadays? dunno...

1. Overly sweet tooth when it comes to inane, bouncy chart pop. Gimme gimme gimme that Guettabeat!

2. Have lost the ability to appreciate hip-hop. I came to a grinding halt with it about 6 years ago. Whereas in the mid-to-late 80s, it formed a huge part of my listening diet.

3. Cannot form even the slightest connection with metal or opera. (What's the link there? Is it some sort of aversion to bombast?)

4. I give too easy a ride to pleasant background music.

5. Over-reliance on various 1970s comfort zones.

classic post chain upthread:

Thing is, most of my fears of suckage about my musical tastes are not about *musical* tastes at all (in which I am perfectly secure. I like what I like, I feel no pressure to like what I don't like.) but about more political things.

Because my parents were born in South Africa, I have this perpetual fear that I am a racist (because I was told so many times by PC American liberals that all South Africans are racist, therefore we must be racists by extension). And I fear that I cannot get into hip-hop or rap *because* I am a racist. I can actually get into white indie-boy (and girl) rap like the Beastie Boys, or Luscious Jackson, or Beck, but I can't get any further.

I suspect that it is more to do with the *texture* of rap and hip-hop, because I listen to music for texture and harmony, rather than than lyrics or melody. (Lyrics are probably *the* least important thing for me in the enjoyment of music, while they are probably *the* most important element, in fact that defining element, in rap.) When I heaar rap or hip hop that *is* "psychedelic" or textural or "stoner rap", (early De La Soul and Cypress Hill spring to mind as examples) it *does* stick to my ear and make me happy.

But still, I worry. Isn't it the most white, middle class, racist thing in the world, to *worry* about being a racist?

― masonic boom, Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:00 PM (9 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

That was a brave admission, Kate. This board could use more of that kind of thing.

― Mark, Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:00 PM (9 years ago)

I fuck chickens.

― Nick, Thursday, June 21, 2001 7:00 PM (9 years ago)

loool

i get pissed when bands that were obscure or not hip suddenly get insanely popular and everyone likes them. I always feel like they were my little secret that i shared with a select few and now everyone knows about them.

I really like some artists that get seemingly zero appreciation here or from any other sources I respect and it makes me wonder if I'm crazy. Elliott Smith is an example.

seems odd. elliott smith is popular and gets (got) tons of critical respect. you mean only from the wrong sources?

My incuriosity.

my frequent laziness to follow up stuff I really like the sound of, a habit which Spotify has helped me shake :)

my occasional habit of leaping to judgement a teeeeeeeny bit too quickly and also biasing myself against certain musical acts

I'm pretty impatient with stuff that doesn't grab me immediately.

I have to *know* everything

getting over this

i tend to like a lot of stuff, but as a result i don't get deep enough into a lot of things, like i have shitloads of albums but with some exceptions not super deep collections of a lot of artists

I sometimes fail to listen to things because all the reviews are bad.

i'm just lazy. i have scattered lists of shit to get, things saved in emusic, notes stuck in my wallet, even stuff downloaded that i haven't played yet. and i never get around to it. i listen to music all the time, idgi

• I get intimidated by artists with huge discographies, especially when there's no critical consensus on which of their releases are strongest/most representative/most accessible. it's a lot more immediately satisfying to buy or download an artist's entire back catalogue when it consists of just a few albums than it is to ease into a prolific artist's oevre bit by bit, knowing that it will take a long time to digest.

• when I do try to get into an artist with a huge discography, I often seek out all of their critically acclaimed works but avoid works that are less highly rated or further removed chronologically from their artistic peak. I'm sure I miss out on some colorful, unjustly derided music because of this.

• I have a way of falling in love with certain artists, albums, or songs for a matter of months (or less) but abandoning them once I move on to other things. I still return to a lot of music I discovered five years ago (when my listening habits were less fickle), but there's a surprising amount of music I adored a year ago but have essentially forgotten.

• i like too much.

• it's only been over the past few years that i've begun to trust my own ears and taste enough.

I feel like a dilettante. I always have to some extent. I've never delved deeply into any one particular genre, never become an expert or specialist about one kind of music, be that jazz or techno or indierock or anything else. All the genres and styles and almost all the artists I like, I like really superficially, and sometimes I feel like this means I'm missing out on some kind of depth of experience. Then again, that depth of knowledge also strikes me as being really boring. Which. Guess is why I never bothered to acquire it about anything.

I don't see what's wrong with this attitude...? Listen -- and write well -- about what you like. Don't feel guilty.

one word: clueless.

my horrendous "taste" sucks all attitude OUT OF musiclife. ;_;

Most of the music I like best is depressing.

Can't stand "funny" music (TMBG and the like)

Also, really high voices bug me. Like Geddy Lee. Scoldy and screechy. Even Robert Plant.

you need to listen to Spike Jones. stat.

contenderizer- 2) i don't listen to music all the time. even now, while doing nothing but posting alone in my apartment, i'm not listening to anything. i don't want to. i prefer the silence.

I recognise this. Most of the time I can't read & listen to music.

Thing I find most frustrating is the low degree of overlap in taste I have w/ most of my friends. Partly me spending much more time on music generally & partly just different interests, but the music I go see & enjoy most is often stuff that is not peripheral to my taste but not core either, just because it's what I can persuade ppl/be persuaded to go to & obv going to shit alone or w/ patient but unenthusiastic is much less fun. But I'm used to it.

I also wish I cld improve my consumption of some stuff; certain shit w/ low UK presence I only really hear about online and my engagement is a bit patchy as a result.

With regards to some of the above posts:

a.) silence is the ultimate palette cleanser and should be utilized! If I find myself starting to feel a little burned out, a few days of no-music is the ultimate cure.

b.) I, too, often feel like a dilettante. But if you want to sample a shitload of new music while still at least occasionally enjoying your past favorites (not to mention having a life other than constantly listening to music nonstop), isn't that almost necessary? To some, maybe spending months exclusively checking out '50s bebop jazz records is more rewarding, but I find that tedious and boring.

I'll come up with my own shortcomings in taste later after thinking a bit (probably too many to list, tbh)...

This thread (poss. the oldest one I've ever seen) reminds me how irritating Marcello could be (when he wasn't OTM)(and when he wasn't posing as "Comstock Carbinieri")(that WAS him, wasn't it?)

Yup.

This is one of those ancient thread where I read it with a knot in my stomach, knowing some dumb statement I made might be lurking around the corner. There was also a period around this time where there was another plain "Mark" I think-- is that possible? I'm almost certain that during some early switchover you could have the same display name as someone else, but I never monkeyed with it. I think that's when I went to MarkR for a while.

This is a good old thread.

I'm actually ok with my musical tastes, I like what I like, but...There are a few artists that I discovered in my youth that, while great, I overrate way out of proportion. I have a distorted image of the post punk music of the mid to late 80s as being the greatest music ever made, bar none. I suppose old hippies who still go on and on about Woodstock are the same way.

I tend to fixate on artists I really like, and play them exclusively, really get to know their
discography, until I burn myself out on their music permanently and I'm not able to listen to
them again.

I tend to focus on new music that has just been released or even leaked. I am anal about stay
ing current with the latest music, but I feel like I only have a surface level acquaintance wi
th new releases as I often only listen to the singles off an album, or skim the album once the
n only listen to a few tracks. I feel like I'm missing out on a lot of rewarding 'deep album
cuts', but everytime I try to listen to newer albums all the way through I get bored and go ba
ck to my iPod shuffle of singles, it's like I have ADD.

I have a very minimal knowledge of Jazz and Classical, despite owning a fairly extensive colle
ction of Jazz and Classical albums. I'm just too lazy to devote any time to close listening (see above). I also can't get into Blues, most old Folk, Country, and Dub Reggae. When I talk to real music obsessive fans like on this board, I often feel like my exposure to a lot of canonical works is very incomplete, and I'm only able to identify famous names. Like
I know that Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Eno, etc. have extensive catalogs of classic works but I ju
st can't be bothered, because I get a more immediate sugar fix via my iPod shuffle of 80's pos
t punk and current Top 40 mashups.

I think I have fairly good taste overall, however as with probably a fair few ilxors, I'm a dilletante and a jack of all trades.

I'm as comfortable or uncomfortable chatting about house as I am post-punk, but sometimes I wish I had a deep knowledge of one particular style, particularly dance music which I enjoy but in which I don't have any particular specialisms.

Strangely now I come to think of it, the only style of which I have close to a deep knowledge is reggae, but it's such a big sphere that I think I only scrape the surface in the grander scheme of things.

Haha, reading upthread it seems "dilletante" is the mot du jour ITT.

My pop/hiphop/r'n'b tastes have widened. Whereas I used to despise most pop, not understand r'n'b and new hiphop alienated me, thanks to ILX polls I'm coming round to all three.

I used to find hiphop frustrating because I felt it needed a lot of attention paid to the lyrics, which isn't always practical if you're reading or something.

Conversely another thing that frustrates me about the music I listen to, is it's getting more accessible. This is down to living in closer proximity to people than before. I can't exactly blast Deicide all day long without complaints.

Not interested in new music. Actually, that's not true, I love the new stuff which I get largely from polls on here or, um, from shazaming when I'm at the shops. But no way am I spending my own time doing the filtering, so while I miss out on tons of dull stuff, no doubt there are masses of great tunes that I'll never hear.

Also, lyrics are basically dead to me now. I like the voice as just another instrument, with the advantage that it's the one that's most fun to bellow along to, but a tiny sample does basically the same job as I get from all but the best singing. The exception that I do appreciate is cleverness with form - I'll get a kick out of a long series of rhymes, say, but I'm not hearing the meaning at all (kind of odd because what I like reading has followed more or less exactly the opposite trajectory).

The days of being thrilled by an eighteen-year-old with an attitude are not, I think, coming back.

My resignation that R&B and hip-hop will never again mean anything to me. Used to listen to quite a lot, but when I met my wife she actively disliked it, so I stopped playing it anywhere near so much. And now I have preteen kids I dare not put any on for fear of the language. And having been away so long I have no idea where to return to.

^^^
Who you hang around with can have as much of a negative impact as positive when it comes to things like this.

Yep. But, you know, my wife makes me happier than hip-hop, so it's not a hard choice. First Wu-Tang album was the definitive cut-off moment: the skit about anal rape (am I remembering that right?) saw her walk over to the CD player, press eject, and tell me she didn't want to hear that, because it upset and offended her.

I can't help feeling like there's something disingenuous about people's shame about listening only to older music. But that's probably because I'm sometimes embarrassed that the vast majority of what I listen to is new.

i refuse to give any new hip-hop or R&B a listen. i stopped listening to anything in those genres in 1998...the hip hop I have heard sounds like complete shit and to me is a disgrace to the classic hip hop of the past...it just seems like anyone with a beat, some screaming and a stupid fucking name like waka flocka fucka and whatever can make a hip hop album. I'd like to hear what some classic artists think of the new shit.

Lex to thread.

Wow. I'm really surprised to see such a blatantly regressive attitude expressed on ILM. I mean, if you're not interested in current hiphop or think it compares negatively to that of the past, that's altogether fine, but to put it in those terms...I generally assume everyone here is smarter than that.

i think most ARE smarter than that, cf WAKA (rightly) placing second in the 2010 trax poll we've just concluded.

I've totally come round to stuff like Waka Flocka - sure it's not really dextrous rap in the original sense (Fu Schnickens or whatever) as the rapping's slower and more, i dunno, shout-along i guess? but it's unadulterated fun - pure maniacal glee in tracks like Hard In Da Paint. Comparing it to old stuff doesn't make much sense. It's like trying to compare Chase & Status with Altern-8.

hip-hop is not, like, one monolithic thing with one set way of doing things and one set spirit to keep alive. its essential formal values can encompass a huge range of stuff. i don't know why in 2011 i still seem to have to say that.

I find it really weird when people say they only listen to new music (and many on here do). Do you throw away albums when they reach a certain sell-by date? Do you not enjoy having a historical frame of reference to the current stuff? I like new music, but things like, say, there are certain production values in sixties music which just don't exist any more but are just as welcome to my ears as something produced in an ultra modern studio.

assume they just mean that they find enough good new shit to keep them occupied, rather than a stance or w/e - not endorsing that but it's easy enough to do

i don't think anyone says that, not even me! i prioritise new music, which isn't the same thing. i've spent most of this week listening to old (and new) pj harvey.

lex, just out of interest and i'm not challenging anything here, but how often are you tempted to delve into older music that came out "before your time" i.e. Sure you could go back and listen to the PJ Harvey back catalogue, but I'm assuming you were previously familiar with some of her stuff?

haha and now i am listening to "let the dollar circulate" by billy paul which was like 1975 or something.

Good title for a song that

I will sometimes buy music because the artwork is pleasant or the artist looks hot in the music video.

And that sucks. Music shouldn't be about models or museum exhibits.

i mean, we've gone over this before though - i can and often do listen to music "before my time" but like 90% of the time i find it's impossible to have ownership of them, really find my way into them like i can for music i'm around for (or - like i could had i been around for them). it's, like, someone else's zeitgeist.

That makes sense. It's interesting that being a part of a current zeitgeist is important to people, and I can appreciate that.

I guess coming from a dormitory town with no real culture of its own to speak of, I always used music to escape the monotony of middle England and to inhabit other worlds time travel being a part of that. So e.g. if I listen to the Beach Boys, that's as close to East Coast '60s America as I'm likely to get. And to an extent, '60s LA is as foreign and exotic to me as a basement in Peckham, so be it grime or surf-pop, it's all an escapade.

xpost: When I actively followed and enjoyed hip hop, I responded most to the elements that made it work as club music. I can't discern those elements so readily in contemporary hip hop. It feels, to me, in my admittedly reduced experience (not helped by feeling that I lack vast swathes of useful context), less funky, more abrasive, hence less personally appealing. But then again, I can totally appreciate that the rhythmic and linguistic dexterity of the best contemporary rappers tends to be, in general, streets ahead of the old school. I listened to some old Tribe Called Quest the other day, and the rapping just sounded so tame, lame and formally constrained. On the other hand, I heard Young MC's "Know How" played before a gig a couple of weeks ago - very much a club track, of course - and was blown away by it all over again. As for newer stuff, I enjoyed some Bun B recently but was put off by the gangsta-isms, and I'm all over "Coming Home" - but it's slim pickings, and I don't feel motivated to try harder and delve deeper.

i should clarify, i've checked out a few of the newer artists, just find it all annoying. And basically what mike says above, just not motivated by any of it. To me it sounds like grunts, growls, autotunes...i just dont get the feeling with this newer stuff that i would with EPMD or Eric B. It just doesn't compare to me.

is it because its more dancey now than in the past...i don't know. it just doesn't grab me like older stuff did and does.

you old fart

i mean educate me people, is there stuff thats isn't so auto-tuney and more classic sounding? Like dog latin said, i dont care for the shout-along aspect of it.

educate yourself fool! get on it!

get on the tip!

people get more conservative as they age. its a fact.

and lex is in his 20's, right? he should be listening to new music. he should kill old music with a stick. don't listen to them, lexy!

Let your freak flag fly!

to some extent I do kind of understand chris's POV - a lot of rappers in the last few years sound like they're going out of their ways to be obnoxious: arrogance, commodity fetishism and dunderheaded gangsta mentally all play a part in this. While this is obviously the point and the attraction for a lot of modern rap fans, I can see how older fans might have trouble with Flocka's steez, as opposed to, say, Chuck D's brand of call-to-arms rap, or Q-Tip's fluffy quirkiness. Flocka and Gucci are grotesque cartoon anti-heroes who are not necessarily likable in a buddy kind of way. They probably don't give a fuck if you don't agree with whatever it is they're saying. So this is really something one has to buy into, otherwise I can see how it would be totally annoying.

i don't listen to current top 40 at all, and probably haven't for close to 8 years (since the last time I had a car and listened to the radio regularly.) i only keep up with a few contemporary artists.

waka flocka flame and gucci mane are not the only archetypes in contemporary rap

i tried to post on ilx about contemporary rap but got made fun of for being 6 months behind the times :(

autotune, love it or hate it, doesn't seem to be going away any time soon and has become as much a part of this era of music as the flange guitar in the 60s, or slap bass and saxophone in the 80s or the amen break in the 90s. It's just another instrument really, all too often confused as a substitute for "real singing", which it shouldn't be.

xpost lex - no i realise this, but I use gucci and flocka as examples.

chrisv - why not take a look around some of the entries in the EOY lists. This is how I opened up to new hiphop and r'n'b.

Maybe try Currensy?

The vast majority of rap today is neither autotuney or shouty and a fair amount of it is very classicist. If anything, Waka's success has been in part because there was an empty niche for loud, aggressive rap.

yeah, waka sounded refreshing to me!

Oh and Strong Arm Steady - The Search For Stoney Jackson is kind of classic sounding too.

rilly sometimes music SHOULDN'T be for you. i used to rant about that ed banger/justice stuff until i realized that i was old man yelling at cloud. it wasn't made to appeal to me! its for the kidz. that's why i hate when people go on and on about how awful some animated movie they just saw was. hey dumbo you are 30 years old! the movie is rated G! its for 5 year olds! sorry it didn't meet your lofty standards. and 5 year olds ENJOY disposable crap.

rev otm - WAKA broke through in a landscape where commercial rap = soft-serve, lightweight slop like drake and b.o.b, and most non-chart rappers emphasised lyrical prowess. his kind of raw aggressive energy (and ability to channel it as an aesthetic rather just a one-off random song) marks him out as a bit of a one-off atm.

it wasn't made to appeal to me! its for the kidz.

part of the reason that someone like ke$ha makes me so pissed off is because her schtick is EXACTLY that which always has appealed to me - trashy party girl on banging club pop tracks. so it really really annoys me to see her getting it so wrong.

rilly sometimes music SHOULDN'T be for you. i used to rant about that ed banger/justice stuff until i realized that i was old man yelling at cloud. it wasn't made to appeal to me! its for the kidz. that's why i hate when people go on and on about how awful some animated movie they just saw was. hey dumbo you are 30 years old! the movie is rated G! its for 5 year olds! sorry it didn't meet your lofty standards. and 5 year olds ENJOY disposable crap.

― scott seward, Tuesday, February 8, 2011 11:23 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

To some extent I am starting to feel this way about people who bitch about the star wars prequels.

rev otm - WAKA broke through in a landscape where commercial rap = soft-serve, lightweight slop like drake and b.o.b, and most non-chart rappers emphasised lyrical prowess. his kind of raw aggressive energy (and ability to channel it as an aesthetic rather just a one-off random song) marks him out as a bit of a one-off atm.

― lextasy refix (lex pretend), Tuesday, 8 February 2011 16:24 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

Forgive me here cos I'm out of my depth, but isn't this what Lil Jon and people from that scene have also been doing too? I dunno, when I heard Flocka, I liked it for all the reasons you mentioned, but I'd assumed there was a whole style of music that did this kind of thing?

Yah, but there's a good intervening half a decade there.

assume they just mean that they find enough good new shit to keep them occupied, rather than a stance or w/e - not endorsing that but it's easy enough to do

Yeah, that about sums it up. And of course, it doesn't mean that I *never* listen to old music. For one, I still listen to old music that was once new to me. But it's rare that I actively seek out older stuff I haven't heard.

to some extent I do kind of understand chris's POV - a lot of rappers in the last few years sound like they're going out of their ways to be obnoxious: arrogance, commodity fetishism and dunderheaded gangsta mentally all play a part in this. While this is obviously the point and the attraction for a lot of modern rap fans, I can see how older fans might have trouble with Flocka's steez, as opposed to, say, Chuck D's brand of call-to-arms rap, or Q-Tip's fluffy quirkiness. Flocka and Gucci are grotesque cartoon anti-heroes who are not necessarily likable in a buddy kind of way. They probably don't give a fuck if you don't agree with whatever it is they're saying. So this is really something one has to buy into, otherwise I can see how it would be totally annoying.

― Bernard V. O'Hare (dog latin), Tuesday, February 8, 2011 11:12 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is what im trying to say, excuse my grumpiness in my first post!

I mean, Lil Jon and that whole style were well out of style by the time Waka emerged. Even Jon himself has been for years focused more on making party hits than street music.

xxp

x-post: I suppose I have to admit that even I realize Lil Jon hasn't been real prominent for a while.

Waka sounds like more of the same stuff I keep being repulsed by when I check in with what ILM rap fans like, or when I pay attention to what's rolling down the street. I probably have a skewed idea of where rap is commercially, since ILM really is my main exposure to the genre these days.

Maybe try Currensy?

Good suggestion. For a while, I was recommending the Knux to people who like hip-hop but don't like its most popular current iterations.

ilm rap fans like a real range of stuff? WAKA is hardly representative when other faves include, like, curren$y and lil b and the jacka and na'tee and yelawolf

and ANGEL HAZE <3

jeez

I think the point about Lil Jon just underscores how quickly everything is liable to and does change in rap.

maybe its because im getting old and there have been some times at my bar where i put on the old-skool hip hop on sirius and the young kids have no idea who the older artists are, i mean if your a hip hop fan how can you not know Eric B, Public Enemy etc?

almost half of this list is p trad sounding, and around 100% of this one is. all 2010 releases.

also i dispute that ian was made fun of :P

why should they?

it's totally a vow of mine never to act outraged or disbelieving when some kid says he's never heard/heard of [legendary act]. (unless it's j0rdan and madonna because WTF.)

i don't think anyone is required to know anything about anything

the same reason why i would want to learn about new hip hop Lex. I dont act outraged, just surprised. yeah but wouldn't you think Eric B and not knowing who WU-TANG was would be a WTF?

see Raekwon. yay. someone i know. I also like Rick Ross.

maybe everyone in your bar hates rap music. like you!

nah i dont think so, with their baggy pants and godamn sideways hats.

you have a bar?

maybe your bar is a gay bar! does everyone smell nice?

If I were a politician, I guess I'd something like "I care too much."

My biggest problems are a) I'm too hung up on melody, which means all kinds of less melody-driven music largely pass me by (blues and funk would be two prominent examples), and b) I'm too much of a list-maker, or too much of a cannon person; I too easily discard music that isn't a candidate for a Top 100, or isn't going to be saved on my permanent hard drive. Lots of "pretty good" music ceases to exist with me.

Um, canon. There may be a song or two about cannons that I like too, I'm not sure.

http://cdn.picapp.com/ftp/Images/0074/c47ac3fb-93c5-49f9-8970-6fd575bf8b3e.jpg

i dont have a bar, i work at one a few nights.

someone make me a playlist of newer hip-hop? i will be forever grateful, and make you an old bastard one.

I don't really care about personality, I have no particular interest in music being played live, I'm not especially interested in hearing a bunch of songs by the same person,

Don't think any of these attitudes suck though, they're just what they are

xp: Not gonna make a whole playlist right now, but see what you think of this.

that kyleon verse is so dopeeeeeeeeee

verse of the month

we shld do Hip Hop Quotable thing, a verse of the month rolling thread

i could listen to more old music, more new music, more music made by people very different to me culturally, more music with a different order of priorities to what i recognise as my preference...but i tend to feel like i do or have done these things to a reasonable extent already tho obv there is always something else to hear/learn/consider theoretically. i do want to do all of those things more but i don't really want to do them based on people's recommendations. instead i want to discover them more 'accidentally' or indirectly and form opinions without reading anything for/against beforehand. something about that is good but something about it also sucks (just as being selfish is often bad but sometimes necessary).

probably a bigger source of frustration is that i'm nowhere near as much of a musician as i would like to be and that has an effect on my tastes and attitude that may cause them to occasionally suck (not in the 'i should value lyrics or singing or melody more than other stuff' sense, more a 'i want to be more confident about and back up the arguments i do make with more technical knowledge of Music from an academic perspective').

xp: Yeah, start it.

ok rev, thats pretty fuckin awesome.

^___^

this has been the most civilized & erudite goon dogpile in years

see stuff like that i can get with, its mostly those shouting things i cant. their flow reminds me of something, cant quite place it.

old man yells at shout rap

would read a Sickest Beat of the month thread

i like that wiz khalifa fella.

just changed my username, thanks.

I like that Wiz Khalifa fella, too.

so i guess its not all new hip hop that i dislike.

YOU GUESSED RIGHT!

scott you never struck me as a hip hop fan.

Scott is an everything fan.

i could listen to more old music, more new music, more music made by people very different to me culturally, more music with a different order of priorities to what i recognise as my preference...but i tend to feel like i do or have done these things to a reasonable extent already tho obv there is always something else to hear/learn/consider theoretically. i do want to do all of those things more but i don't really want to do them based on people's recommendations. instead i want to discover them more 'accidentally' or indirectly and form opinions without reading anything for/against beforehand. something about that is good but something about it also sucks (just as being selfish is often bad but sometimes necessary).

Oddly (or not?) enough, this is pretty much where I'm at at present, at least in general terms. But I also tend to see this in both terms of age as Scott identifies it earlier in this thread combined with a generally much more relaxed philosophy about music (and to a larger extent art and culture, however you want to define it) that I've happily settled into over the past few years. I suspect it was the logical reaction to the overdose of my twenties on such stuff; my thirties was more of a conscious turning away and I'm reaching forty feeling a certain equanimity about it all.

If I tried to keep up with everything I'm 'supposed' to, I would have no time. I really would much rather have relaxed evenings idly reading a book, sometimes listening to music and sometimes not at all. I suppose an earlier self would think that sucks but my current one -- which always liked to do that anyway -- is resolutely unconcerned.

oh yeah there was another thread a bit like this where i said one problem is that i'm letting things like spotify and last.fm have too much control over what i hear and how. i might exclude stuff because it's not immediately available how i want it, i'm listening to some stuff just so it appears higher in my last.fm stats. probably too contrived an approach altho it has been useful as i do get overwhelmed by the choice and need these exercises or motivations to listen sometimes.