Let's talk about Derrick May

I agree that several of his tracks are quite pretty, but I'll take Craig, Saunderson, Atkins, etc. over him any day. From where I'm standing, the aura overrides the substance.

If you view it from the perspective of a historical reference. The things that Derrick did completely blew open the doors for electronic music in the 1990's. There would be no UK IDM records, no Warp, no B12, no ART, no Plaid... his music was the reference for an entire section of European underground electronic music. He set the stage for the entire deep electronic soul scene in Detroit.

Derrick May was brilliant because it was the perfect synthesis of refined European Culture and African-American Soul. Because his music contains that cold cerebral elegance of Kraftwerk and New Wave at its finest, while simultainously retaining the warmth and soul of the American Black musical tradition. Between the cold strings and chord stabs, the sleek dx100 basslines, and funked out Roland x0x drum programming you can completely glimpse into the soul of Derrick May. His records are an utterly precise reflection of who he was as a person and of the time in Detroit when he made those records.

To really get those records you need to be in the situation that they were designed for. You need to be in a dark sweaty Detroit club in 1989 filled with people who are there to get down because they so desperately need an escape from the pressure of life as black people in the murder capitol of the industrial world. Those records are genius because they are dark, uplifting, elegant, and rawly sexual simultainously.

If you want to really understand why his records were so great, you need to listen to Icon and Strings of Strings, Nude Photo, and his other downtempo music on a walkman by yourself in downtown Detroit at 3am on a weeknight. When you can see places like the Music Insitute on Broadway, The Shelter on Congress, Save The Vinyl, The old Planet E offices off Boardway, The Transmat, ex-KMS, ex-Metroplex and ex-7th City offices on Gratiot and the old Submerge building on Grand River, then it will make more sense. The idea of going to a city that was one of the largest industrial centers of the world, and walking downtown after 2am and seeing nobody on the streets for blocks and blocks, hearing nothing because no one else is around. Looking at sections that are in decay juxtaposed with commerical building that are still functioning and in repair. The posters on the walls and the character of the architecture of the buildings that are the dark canyon walls of downtown...

you will get the strange sensation of desolation and warmth at the same time. When you understand that feeling in that context, Derrick May will make perfect sense to you.

The music, I hate to overanalyze it because tracks like Strings of Life, Icon, Beyond the Dance and It Is What It Is? (probably my favourite piece of music ever) just mean too much to me. As seperate tracks and in DJ-sets (he's a great DJ btw, also from the jerky- scratch school of mixing)

So he dissed hardcore in '91, whatever, a lot of people did, doesn't change my opinion of his music.

One wonders though how influencial he really has been? Nobody really took his model any further, did they? May be Photek a bit, but I always figured Saunderson was the one in the end who got copied the most.

a - because acid house and techno were, at the time when they crossed over originally, not terribly far away from eachother stylistically (techno was often considered a subset of acid house in the UK, apparently). Even if all the Bellevue Three had never been born, it would have only been a matter of time before someone, most likely in the UK (808 State, for example), would have made the connection between acid house and electro. Techno was always about a certain mindset rather than a particular musical approach anyway, and lord knows that beats + machine-futurism was a fairly obvious idea even then (remember EBM?).

Certainly Derrick's individual contribution could have easily been missed, notwithstanding the quality of the music itself.

b) You could just as easily say that but for eighties progressive dance from Italy there would have been no Derrick May. Does that really mean anything?

Really, do people say this? Cause I've never met anyone who claimed this (because all the Techno professors would rubish that argument). But you're right techno was just a part of acidhouse and up till 1993 you wouldn't find any division between house and techno (I always wonder who started to make that division and why it caught on). Anyway in that light May created one of the anthems of acid with 'Strings of Life' as did many other artists now long forgotten. A Guy Called Gerald's 'Voodoo Ray' basically presented the same model from a Brit-perspective.

Mmm, running with this idea, didn't the division between house and techno also create/warrant an Author theory in dance music? I can understand why May has been pushed as an Author, since he had a very personal, recognizable and hard-to-copy style. Those weird jumping beats and string-stabs are pretty rare. Maybe most producers/DJ's felt those rhythms weren't as functional as 4-to-the-floor. Anyway, it's just a myth/story, over the years there has been enough documentation to put the birth of acid/rave into perspective away from Detroit.

I guess it depends on where your tastes lie in dance music. You opinions are valid, and I was into that mills'y banging shit when I was younger. By I really think you are off base by saying something like Acid Tracks or Jungle Wonz aged better than Rhythim is Rhythim. As far as aging goes, have you tried to listen to the stuff that the UK answered back with stuff like Forgemasters, Nexus 21, Sweet Exorcist, LFO or Early Orbital, now there is electronic music that did not age.

I think what you really should say is that you do not like his disco influenced angle, and the fact that he was not coming across as banging music. Of the Belleville three, I think Saunderson was the least talented of the bunch. Granted, Kevin did essentially write the rulebook for what harder techno would eventually become in the mid- 90s. I do not think that May's music has aged poorly, it is really a matter of whether or not you care for a particular sound.

re Omar:

have you listened to 91 era hardcore lately? that is some rotten stuff. He was angry because it took the direction of european dance music down an entirely wrong part. Belgian hoover tracks and other picked up breaks tracks just ruined the whole scene. It was pure drug music, and it was the point when rave got ugly. There is not a whole lot of good to say about Dominator by Human Resource...

As for influence...For one thing listen to any Carl Craig records from before 92, it took carl years to get out from underneath his shadow. Check out John Beltran, Aril Brikha, Tony Drake, Detroit Escalator Company, or Sterac. His musical presense is absolutely felt in deep techno, but it is not a presense that is celebrated in UK drug culture magazines.

Kevin Saunderson played harder and I think dancefloor techno definitely picked up on that. Of the three kevin did probably pave the way for most of the bad techno that came out in 90's. Derrick on the other hand went in a completely different direction, he slowed down and started make deeper records. He figured out real quick that people don't buy those kind of records from black american artists that's what fake detroit UK IDM records circa 92 were for.) He got discouraged because the music he wanted to make was not selling and quit making records. It is a shame really, I would like to have seen where he would have taken it.

Tim:

Tim the entire history of 90's underground dance music would have changed. With out Derrick May, there would have been no Neil Rushton. Without Neil Rushton and his connections in the UK music industry the entire dance industry in Detroit would have fizzled. Good Life and Big Fun never would have become international hits, there never would have been a situation that drew the scene together like the 10 Records comp. Derrick was the point man for that whole project, he was the one that rounded up the tracks. There never would have been a Music Institute, yet another locus for the nacent Detroit scene.

more importantly, there never would have been a vigor in Detroit for the second and third waves of Detroit techno. There would have been Underground Resistance, no Jeff Mills, Rob Hood, Rolando or Mike Banks, not Octave One, Carl Craig, Hawtin, Dan Bell, Shake... Derrick May like it or not set up a rallying point for the rest of the city. The city became a rallying point for the rest of the world.

And Frankly, 808 state could not have done it. They would have made it into nice glossy english music and fucked the whole idea up. The entire breadth of Techno would be song oriented tracks that sound like SAW 1 by Aphex. It would have been this glossy and clean melodic song oriented music with nice production values. Techno is not Techno without the black musical influence. The whole DJ style is different and the tracks would have come out completely different because of that. 808 just didn't have the grit or soul to really pull it off.

It is like saying "pop music would have still been good without Brian Wilson and Pet Sounds, the Beatles were playing with weird production on Rubber Soul anyways..." Like it or not the way he did things changed the game. Yeah, things were moving in that direction, but his music and personality were what crystalized the whole situation. EBM does not count, because it lacks the cross-cultural synthesis that makes Techno in Detroit important.

As for Italio-Disco, it is incredibly relevant to a conversation about Italio-Disco. The difference is that people are not trying to deny Martin Circus or Alexander Robotnik their places in dance music history. Derrick May is exactly why that music is relevant, because it is a continous cycle. Dance music continually feeds off its own history. I would get just a vocal if their influence was being denied. You have to study and respect the history, because that is where the future comes from. You cannot disscuss those Italio-Disco without bringing up Moroder or earlier guys in the Harlem scene, and you cannot bring up May without Italio-Disco, and you cannot bring up IDM without out bringing up Detroit and so on...

you have to recognize the personalities that made big waves and changed the way things were done. That is how music evolves, through the work of individuals. You cannot give Derrick May credit for everything, but you certainly cannot say that his music was irrelavent because of xyz would have done something vaguely similiar a few years later.

as for why I love Derrick May(as mark originally asked...)

On a strictly musical front, I just love his music. I love the way he arranges his strings, The way he programs his sounds, his knack for a good bassline and his drum programming. I really dig how he can create a total atmosphere and make you forget about the technical aspect behind the music. Most dance music is just a series of Cubase piano roll's, effects processing, and a vague musical theme for me. Rhythim is Rhythim has the ability to completely suspend that aspect of music for me. There is very little music that I completely lose myself and find myself in a completely different world.

The best example I can give is when you are a 15 year old kid and you are listening to your absolute favorite record in world, and you completely love music in a pure and complete way as only a teenager really can. No business, no scene, no musician crap, just a pure innocent love for how great music is.

Derrick May can take me to the place that every good middle aged rock critic is so desperately serching for.

I am a little over tired so I apppolgise for the spelling and gramatical errors. I need a secretary to edit my rants before before I post...

---- have you listened to 91 era hardcore lately? that is some rotten stuff. He was angry because it took the direction of european dance music down an entirely wrong part. Belgian hoover tracks and other picked up breaks tracks just ruined the whole scene. It was pure drug music, and it was the point when rave got ugly. There is not a whole lot of good to say about Dominator by Human Resource... -----

yes I have and that was exactly the *right* path music took at that time, higher intensity and in retrospect some amazing tunes that hold up pretty good incl. 'Dominator'. But then again I *like* drugmusic ;). I know that from a strict Detroit view this is "not done", which is why a lot of people were and still are irritated with May's comments. He didn't own the music and I've read enough interviews with Detroit producers who effectively have said as much: if you don't like it, start making better tracks again.

But hey I don't go for this "either-that-or" thinking. I find it perfectly normal to love both Rhythm is Rhythm and Human Resource, Psyche and LFO. (don't forget that for some of us in Amsterdam May, Pullen and Craig are honourary citizens since they lived here for some time).

One last comment: U.R. would have come out of Detroit no matter what.

Michael: certainly I'm not denying Derrick May's talent - he made some great music. But he's certainly valorised (by himself and others) way way way above and beyond his equally talented peers. The idea that he's being denigrated more than the Italo-disco producers you mentioned is, frankly, preposterous - I didn't even know those guys names.

Also: Belgian techno/hardcore/ardkore etc = surely the most interesting lineage in dance music (spreading on into jungle and then uk garage). In comparison, the music that has remained true to the Detroit blueprint has trod over a relatively small plot of creative ground for the last fourteen years or so. Not to mention that most of the really interesting stuff happening in real techno for the last eight years ago has been the Maurizio/Studio One axis and everything that's flowed out of it - which is about as far from May as you can get and still be called techno.

Also I want to take massive issue with the following quote:

To really get those records you need to be in the situation that they were designed for. You need to be in a dark sweaty Detroit club in 1989 filled with people who are there to get down because they so desperately need an escape from the pressure of life as black people in the murder capitol of the industrial world.

I really don't know if there is anything more absurd in the entire galaxy of music writing than statements like these. The people who write these sorts of things are evidently trying to write off the opinions of anyone else who doesn't fit the description, for example nearly everybody, and I for one see no other answer than to write off the opinions of anything they might have to say as well. To summarize - piss off, Mike Taylor, you make me ill.

a) his beats are really really funky, and you can't say that about a lot of techno in my opinion--it's the hi-hat patterns, basically, the syncopation and the cross-cutting rhythms are outstanding
b) paradoxically, the restraint and austerity of his sound are what make it very emotional to me... not just obvious stuff like Strings of Life, but also things like the bleeps on R-Theme (and the way they build), the piano on Salsa Life set against the grating synth riff (his piano sound in general actually, its not straightforwardly anthemic like straight-up house, there's a certain hollow echo to it), the relentlessness of The Dance, etc... a long time ago i listened to his stuff constantly during a pretty painful period in my life, and it helped
c) he's a really really great DJ, one of the best i ever heard... too many techno DJs either bludgeon you over the head with kickdrums or bore you to tears with seamlessness... he mixes it up a lot, you can hear bits of other musics but they're woven into the overall sound, and he actually makes you want to dance (another thing i can't say of too many techno djs)... see that awesome Mayday mix, of course
d) ok, he should have done more stuff, probably protecting the mythos too much, but still--everything he did is very high quality

also, yes he does seem quite arrogant, but i may be more bored with hearing about his "purism"/that one quote about hardcore from eons ago than i am with just about anything in dance music... you'd think hardcore was like Dylan going electric or something (perhaps it was haha, but I think we're all tired of hearing about that too)

Actually - you beat me to a lot of points on this thread. The thing about May - it's the hi-hats. So invigorating, so simple, so bountiful. It was what this music needed.

Yeah, "Beyond the Dance" is a piece of work, isn't it? What glorious music; it takes real imagination to create something like that. What a joy to sit in your room and listen to something like that. Screw the clubs. "Strings of Life"? C'mon, are you kidding me? Impossible brilliance (I'm all about the hyperbole tonight - blame the wine). Hell, throw in Carl Craig too. I take the two of them to be the best of the Detroit breed. Atkins and Saunderson are great, but really can't touch those two.

The funny thing is there really are a lot of traces in what these guys did in some of that late 70's stuff like Manuel Gottsching. I know that type of statement makes someone like Mike Taylor want to go on a rampage, but it's there. Hell, Craig made specific reference to it so it's not like it's a big deal. But yeah, problematic as they are, I love Taylor's posts. It's the Michigander in me.

To address the point made about my being one of the most absurd writers; it is your opinion, and when you wear my shoes perhaps it might make a bit more sense.

Frankly Millar, have you ever been to Detroit? Have you ever wandered around downtown Detroit in the middle of the night? Hell, do you have any experience in the Detroit club scene?

I can answer yes to all three of these questions. I stand by my statement because I know people who actually were there. I know what they have to say about it, and I know how much it meant to them. You weren't there, you don't know. You are not from anywhere near this region and you do not know what it is like, because it is not nice like NYC, London, or San Fran.

When I say that you need to come down to Detroit to understand those tracks I mean it. It isn't something I read in a copy of Mojo, I know what those tracks sound like out there because I *personally* have listened to those songs in the areas where they were written. When you have a look around it will make a lot more sense to you. I don't know where you are from, but I would never claim to have the same kind of intimate understanding of your region's recordings as I do of the ones that came out of Detroit. I know from first-hand experience that they make more sense in that climate.

Also, What does not make sense about that statement? I was under the impression that it was a widely understood idea in dance music culture that the club environment was a communal experience. It isn't just the records, the dj or the system, it is the venue, the people, the times, everything. Those records made their dance floor debuts in the Music Institute or other local venues on 1/4" Reel-to-Reel tape. Those records were made to be played on the floor for the people who were there. You might not like it because it doesn't include you, but those are the facts jack. Those records were purpose made dj tools that were engineered for, and refined in that particular setting. Derrick May made records for the clubbers in Detroit in the late 80's, and those records set the stage for electronic music in the 90's.

This is something that is ridiculously obvious to me, if no one else. All dance music only really lives for the first time a record blows up, after that it dies in a way, it never really explodes like it did that first summer or that first year in came out because it gets covered with the dust of the cannon. I was 12 years old when the MI was going, so I way too young to be there. When I was finally old enough to be a part of the Detroit scene I paid my dues week in and week out for about 8 years. I have seen a lot of labels, dj's, producers, and micro genres come and go since 1995. If you were not there for a particular period of time, you can never really understand it like someone who was actually there. The records just don't sound the same because you do not have the associations that go along with that particular time. The records are just something that gets exported for cash, but the real experience of dance music is off the record. You are just receiving the mediated experience, the residue of club culture if you will.

Techno is a lifestyle; it is not a genre of music. I am not going to claim that I am a huge insider and that I was there when Ron Murphy cut the plates for Strings Of Life at National Sound, but I have had personal contact with more than a few of the people involved with it. Because I have been to the places where these records were made, dealt with the people that made them, and live in the region where it happened, I probably have a little more insight than most. I probably do understand those records a little bit better because of that.

I am not saying that because I think I am the top dog, it is just something that seems to be true to me. When I look at the Detroit records, vs. say Cologne minimal techno, I do not have the same understanding of it. It is foreign to me. It is external. I can enjoy them, I can understand them, but I cannot really know them in the same way that I understand a local record, especially a record from somebody I know or have seen around for years and years. That might be horrible and elitist, but I don't know what else to tell you.

I understand Derrick May’s music more than say someone like Lou Reed, because I have spoken with dm a handful of times, dealt with the people that work at his label, have all the local gossip, and live in the same region. I have never met Lou Reed, I have never been in NYC, and I have never had any business or personal dealings with anyone who is remotely close to him. If you had all three I would not flip out if you claimed to have a better understanding of the VU, it would strike me as common sense.

Maybe I am just nuts…

What was important was that he took all these threads that were out there and weaved them all together while imposing his personality on them. And that was something NEW! Trust me, I know where Derrick May got his ideas from, and I don't think he has ever denied being influenced by what came before him. For the record, I am completely aware that there was music before Detroit Techno.

Thanks for the love Ronan and Mr. D. Believe it or not, I am not nearly as militant about Detroit Techno as I was a couple years back. It is hard to get my blood up about too much of anything when it comes to music anymore. It is a shame in some ways, when I used to rant, right or wrong, I used to kick up one hell of a racket.

so i obviously know a lot of early detroit tracks from hearing them being played,but i don't know specifically which ones

i would like some way to get to know the landmarks of detroit techno (other than the really well known ones-the bells,strings of life,good life,a few others)
and i would like to hear more from derrick may (consciously) but i dunno if there's much point buying a compilation of tracks made to be mixed into other tracks...
i am trying to download the mayday mix,but no luck so far
can anyone recommend other mixes that might give me some more understanding of detroit techno?
(i know the liquid room,obv,and am fairly familiar with harder,loop based techno,but i don't know a huge amount about the detroit stuff,or not as much as i feel i should,anyway)

this is one of the silliest things i have ever read

mike's posts always amuse me because there's such a cliche about this post-reynoldsian detroit pietist stereotype which after a while you can end up believing is a total construct until you run into one

I will answer your posts tomorrow Steve and Robin. Perhaps my writing is not up to par, because people are completely missing what I am trying to get across.

I brought up Lou Reed for a reason, and when I explain myself I think things will be a bit clearer.

and remember jess, you Reynolds accolades have a special place in our hearts as well. There are more of us "pietist constructs" than you are probably aware of, we have been right all along ;)

Just got some sad news -- a big reason (and why I'm posting on this thread) is at the end:

this note from brad hales - his shop was in the forest arms building on the wayne state campus that burned today. please let your friends and fellow record store geeks know this info.

Friends,

I am sorry to report that Detroit's Forest Arms apartment building was lost early this morning to a massive fire. The building is toast. Our new location is in the basement of my apartment, at 5835 Third St., just south of Antoinette.

If anybody wishes to help out, how about sending a prayer out to the hundred or so people who lived there who are now homeless, and lost pets, and probably in a lot of cases, everything they owned to the blaze.

People's Records will continue on without even really ever stopping. Unfortunately, I have to just about start over. Everything there is under about 4 feet of water. Literally.

Also, if you have any photos of the old place, email peoplesrecordsdetr✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧

I think we may be having a benefit at the Bohemian within the next week or so; details to follow.

So, if anybody wants to stop by the house on Third, Zac, Anibal and I are preparing the basement, and getting things ready for our newest incarnation.
That's today. I don't think anything can be done at the store right now; it's going to take a whole lot of sump pumps to eventually get all the water out of that basement. 5,000 gallons A MINUTE were being pumped in.

Phone calls don't really help right now; my voicemail is already full. Stop by the house on Third if you want to help.

best,
brad

p.s. I needed a vacation anyway.

p.p.s. Still paying CA$H for old records.

p.p.p.s. this is also the building where derrick may recorded "strings of life", "the dance", "nude photo" etc..... nuff respect....

Bizarre. I spent nearly five years down the street, and not to be a pain, but I think Brad is incorrect. I’ve heard from Derrick that he wrote most of those songs two blocks down at the Sheridan Court, which is now the neighborhood crack den. But it’s possible, like everything about Derrick that he made either story up.

I was under the impression he recorded his big tracks at the Atlas Building, but what do I know...

in any event, it's always sad when the D loses another grand old building, and good luck to the residents...

sad news. reminds me of this: http://flickr.com/photos/sweetjuniper/2050168942/

For ex-Detroit people: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22821077@N04/sets/72157603860521532/

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=1001082564&albumID=0&imageID=373897

^^ LOL

as someone who is nearly completely ignorant abt these genre and subgenres and doesnt really care abt musical importantness id like to take this opportunity to weigh in on derrik may v techno.

firstly he is so delightfully funky. so so much! this shit is way more that than most house. how did techno become the uptight brother?

also the way its constructed and the sounds. the analog sounds and programing they are v distinctive and wonderful.

this is great great music.

the mike taylor posts are a truly stunning synergy of insight and wrongheadedness. ingenious!

how did techno become the uptight brother?

berlin

yah i know but but its still kinda weird and inexplicable

well a lot of the europeans weren't just following along from the detroit sounds, they were imitating straight-ahead kraftwerk and moroder and early hi-nrg material too

its interesting that it instantly comes to this question. i mean detroit shit was the key ingredient right?

mayday mix is :D
love that he used 'get down get horny'

i mean detroit shit was the key ingredient right?

you can make this argument, but bloonkity doonkity shuffle DX basslines like May is so fond of didn't seem to catch on as much as the space cadet stuff on top. White people, you know.

is this related to why stuffwhitepeoplelike.com doesnt lol me?

it doesn't lol me either

hmmm

tbh there's a lot of stuff on Innovator that I find lame

that drama bassline caught on, i think

May's personal quality control seems to have started out where Craig's has ended up :(((

can you elaborate?

well I said I thought a lot of stuff on innovator was lame, and compared to the wall of hits that is TSToDr.E or other comps of earlier material, craig's last couple of efforts have seemed, uh, to contain many lame things

IMHO

how come kaos isnt on innovator wtf

the mike taylor posts are a truly stunning synergy of insight and wrongheadedness. ingenious!

It is a very special talent...

I wish I could be bothered to argue over things like this anymore. The blood cools with age.

I did manage to pick up a copy of Wiggin a couple days ago for a few bucks. Hard knock life.

As far as techno becoming uptight, the answer is Plus8/UR and the hidden influence of industrial music on techno.

^^ tightie-whities

The thing that is most interesting to me is how different my perspective on the big picture of dance music is after all these years.

Myopia is both the beauty and problem with living in Detroit.

Two weeks ago in Ghent, I had the rare opportunity to see Derrick May DJ in a club with a capacity of no more than 150 ppl. AMAZING SET: solid, tight, funky, unrelenting. For at least the last half of the three-and-a-half hours, the bass (in the style of Oscar G & Ralph Falcon, i.e. Murk-style) never let up. As the minute hand crept closer to 5:00, I sensed tension building and I was right: on the basis of past sets (and the plethora of mp3's of past Derrick May live sets that until recently were available on MixesDB.com), one might have expected him to do a mostly techno set. Guess again: it was all DEEP HOUSE, few if any vocals, and with the tiny club you could imagine what it must have been like to have one of these guys do a loft party back in the day. In any case, getting toward five o'clock, things got to a point where he would cut to the sort of techno record that the crowd was jonesin' for, then cut back to the other record with the BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM Miami-style bass, then back to four bars of the techno record, then BOOM-BOOM-BOOM, back and forth, and then suddenly, right at 5, he segged to "Killa Bite" by Ben Sims [you get the picture? Techno + Deep House averages out to Tech-House!], and the room just exploded! It was the climax/release that everyone was waiting for. Brilliant.

Skip the records. 20 years ago you would have been wasting your time if you bought Grateful Dead records, because the real goods were the live sets. It's the same with Derrick May -- the real joy is when he's on the decks. RESPECT.

To understand what the man is capable of, track down a copy of "The Mayday Mix". 11 years on, it's still the best DJ set on CD that I've ever heard. On other boards I've seen discussions where knowledgeable readers absolutely could not determine whether he was using 1 or 2 copies of Green Velvet's "The Preacher Man"; whether the record that samples "Let No Man Put Asunder" is "What Has Been Joined by G.O.D.", or is it "Car Crash Mixer"; how he managed to do what he does with "ONLY" three turntables. And he plays Jeff Mills' "Alarms" and Phuture's "Spank Spank" on top of each other as though they were intended to be part of the same recording. Phenomenal.

If this were a just world, people would be trading mp3s of Derrick May sets the way that they used to trade bootleg tapes of Dead shows.

<3 mayday mix, one of the best ever

Anyone hear his mix on 6 music a few weeks ago? Just listening now, about 15 mins through, very very good.

i'm the only one who finds mayday mix irritatingly choppy?

Yeah it never really clicked with me even though the choppiness and relentlessness is one of his signatures. In my experience, it goes over way better in a live setting as j.w. attests above.

Saw that Innovator got re-pressed recently. Maybe they'll do Relics next.

Gonna have to really read this thread at some point.

i like the choppiness of it! There's so much live-ness to it

yeah and on second thought it does sorta take into account the way people actually dance or move vis-a-vis BOOM BOOM BOOM mills style techno which doesn't really let up long enough for a breath or a change of form, i have to say i appreciated that when i was working out to mayday mix earlier today

What the fuck is up with Innovator!?! Half the tracks on here are like a minute or less in length (the first disc is only 45 minutes long! he could have included real tracks), with different mixes and all. And this is to say nothing of the megalomaniacal delusions of grandeur featured in the liner notes. Ah well, I guess that's just Derrick May?

he's always loved doing that...check out the Transmat Relics compilation from many years before Innovator.

Has someone compiled the full Relics and Innovator tracks on a handy torrent yet?

ah come on, innovator is excellent. i think it works so well as a, um, narrative, that including full tracks would've stifled its impact. compare innovator to the more recent juan atkins metroplex 2-disc for example, or even the kevin saunderson faces and phases thing, yeah unimpeachably wonderful music obviously but all those full tracks get tiresome in the long run. and if you really want to be completist, buy the vinyls! they've pretty much all been repressed by now

i love those short interludes on the relics album and innovator, they really give those albums a sense of being an actual piece of art as opposed to just a victory lap career retrospective

i don't know maybe i'm slightly biased; i spent much of last winter walking to and from work at night through south london with innovator on the discman -- i've never experienced a marriage of sound and environment quite like that before, just perfect, and i can totally sympathise with all those people who talk about driving through detroit late at night listening to rhythm is rhythm and truly understanding his music. it's music that somehow seems completely tied to this feeling of night time in the city, sodium streetlamps illuminating the rainfall on dirty pavements, all that corny cliched rubbish that's been written about a thousand times already

btw i saw derrick may dj a couple of months back and he took the room and shook it like a snowglobe. so much energy that night

that wasn't the sound of a train wreck shacking the room? is he capable of matching beats? i bought some japanese mix disc he did and it was the most awful display of 'mixing' i've ever heard. i don't think he can actually beat match. if someone can point out a mix of his that includes a good blend from one track to another, i'd love to hear it.

I've heard his DJ sets were pretty bad, too. I believe the name "Derrick Meh" was cited.

that wasn't the sound of a train wreck shacking the room? is he capable of matching beats? i bought some japanese mix disc he did and it was the most awful display of 'mixing' i've ever heard. i don't think he can actually beat match. if someone can point out a mix of his that includes a good blend from one track to another, i'd love to hear it.

― brotherlovesdub, Monday, August 2, 2010 4:21 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

the mayday mix? fwiw dudes beatmatching is super easy esp w techno of the style he plays & im sure hes figured it out by now

pretty sure he was replying to me there

yeah i guess derrick may is known for his less than perfect beat matching skills, as is jeff mills, but with both djs i think it kind of adds to the manic energy. that style of djing is not about long blends at all, it's about counterpoint and flair, and yeah there's plenty of great djs out there who can balance perfect mixing with adventurous equing styles and tricks (claude young for instance) but somehow i think we've been spoilt by this kind of post-hawtin long transition stye of mixing in recent years and it was refreshing to hear that old kinda hip hop style of djing. plus he played some really good music that night -- i'm not the kind who walks out of the club as soon as i hear some kick drums galloping

i saw shake play this year as well and again, mixing wasn't perfect, there were no super long blends or transitions, just tons of energy, enthusiasm, flair, and most importantly, amazing records

actually i guess he was also talking mayday mix, sorry

odd. every time i've heard him dj his mixing has been impeccable. inspirational even.

i meant 'mayday mix' as an example of good mixing.

my favourite track on mayday mix is club mcm. so good

im a big fan of 'get down get horny' personallment

o_O "I don't think he can actually beatmatch" ...Now I've heard everything! (Yes, I've heard the "Mayday Mix")

mayday mix is about 10000x better mixing than 99% of djs i see imo

Seeing him play in Minneapolis was kind of a Road to Damascus moment for me.

I went from being sort of interested in house and techno to not having enough room to walk around in my room because of all the vinyl.

Maybe he just has off nights? He's only human.

that wasn't the sound of a train wreck shacking the room? is he capable of matching beats? i bought some japanese mix disc he did and it was the most awful display of 'mixing' i've ever heard. i don't think he can actually beat match. if someone can point out a mix of his that includes a good blend from one track to another, i'd love to hear it.

― brotherlovesdub, Monday, August 2, 2010 10:21 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

Why dont you just get traktor, load up a bunch of mp3s click sync and yo wont need to listen to another dj every again

I downloaded the Mayday mix I dissed to give it another try. If it still sucks, guess I'll have to fire up Traktor.

The Mayday mix is great. I love a DJ who plays around with the beat and mixes things up. Yes, he doesn't do smooth seamless mixing, but I don't think that's what he's going for. To me, the way he messes with expectations and toys with the listener/dancer is much more exciting.

Search that RA "Cosmic Twins" mix(May and François K) from a few months back if still in doubt.

BTW I mix pretty much exclusively with Ableton and it's STILL possible to trainwreck - trust me. But that's for another thread...

I like the Cosmic Twins mix, actually.

GF just told me derrick may sounds like "chocolate rain"

all i can say is "haha"

I was just loooking at my copy of Innovator. Has anyone collected those tracks in original full length mixes that I could torrent or d/l?

sometimes i think: this dude perfected music

Do his melodies move you? Is there something about how he programs beats? Does the textures he gets from his synths make you swoon.

^^^Emphatic yes to all

he did use a lot of basic synth sounds
but there are those flange-d out chord blasts that are like aggressive painting strokes, somehow sounding primal and stately simultaneously.

there is no music better than "it is what it is" or "nude photo"

Except Icons (Montage Mix)

no

was that youtube clip of May and Carl Craig performing Strings live posted on this thread? If not, go look it up.

What's the story with the unreleased May LP on wire's "100 records that set the world on fire" list? google is failing me.

tbh may records are all about the breakdowns

also strings has no bassline

do you think derrick may has copies of his records that actually stay on time

this is the perfect time of year for mayday

just my $0.02

Emporors new clothes music.

I've been attempting to hear the 'soul' in his music for 20 years to no avail, all I hear is tedious joyless keyboard demos forged by a great self-promoter with a deft knack for pushing a genre creation myth to people who desperately want dance music to be more than the sum of its parts.

that's because you're a cloth eared dunce

OTM

But to hark back to the OP's original question back in 2001 - " I just can't see why it was such a breakthrough, and why electronic music freaks still go wild for it. I hear people talking about "soul" when talking about May, which sheds no light for me."

I've read the whole thread and noticed that May's music is always referred to in the context of its surroundings, or in comparison other music of the time. If you were listening for the first time in 2014, unaware of the history etc surely its pretty missable?

yes yes, very interesting, say more about that

You know what I'm really enjoying about nu-nu-ilx is the influx of normals and challops, really shaking things up around here. Does raccoon tanaki have any opinions4u about Derrick May?

normals and challops

wow. back to lurking for me.

peace out bro!

damn, harsh. i sorta agree with you Willl. this post from top of thread is rad. bring back the old internet!!

This may be boring and obvious but: the greatest thing to me abt Detroit techno seems like a drawback when you're just listening to tracks back-to-back: the relative sameness and consistency of the instrumentation (The Roland sound, etc.). I know this has been beaten to death but I'm going to draw a parallel that reinvigorates your interest in the entire genre ;) That sameness allows a gifted DJ (like uh... JEFF MILLS) to do things w/turntables that are literally impossible with other techno and house genres. When the handclaps from one track are the EXACT SAME handclaps in another, you can build a set that is sneaky, unique, and utterly seamless. I feel weird saying this because I have a kind of "anti-seamlessness" stance towards most DJ music these days, but minimal Detroit stuff allows the DJ to be much more of a "musician" than almost any other genre (besides hiphop tunrtablists of course).

The parallel: the World Wide Web. In the very early days of the web, every page looked exactly the same. Gray background, left-justified. No images. That was the vision: every page was just a page among other pages, the "site" was the entire web itself, cross-referenced with everything else. Nothing with its own prominence or personality. The value was in combination, not isolation. I personally get very bored with Surgeon, Jeff Mills, Derrick May, Blake Baxter, etc. on a track-by-track basis but I got bored with individual web pages in 1994 as well - the WHOLE is what gets me goin.
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 21 June 2001 17:00 (13 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

w/e

telling people they got tricked into liking something is always going to be a non starter

The Great Beige-ing

i like how racist early ilx was, thats p cool

i love listening to detroit techno on a track-by-track basis. sure the quality varies but for the most part i just keep hearing good to great jams, with seams visible because it's made for djing but that's part of the charm imo. the music here is not lacking something on its own.

racist how, lamp?

I've been attempting to hear the 'soul' in his music for 20 years to no avail

It's just cool music, who cares about 'soul' or mythmaking or whatever, i'll bet you like some pretty shitty music yourself, mr emporor

like, is it just a total buzzkill for you whenever somebody drops a derrick may track in a set, because he's so emporors new music?

Mike Taylor's posts about "you need to walk the dark streets of detroit to understand this music" = massive groan, head in hands

^^^ the kind of sh*t that still helps sell loads of Detroit and Chicago-based dance records in Europe and Japan, seemingly. This comes from what friends "in the know" have told me and i find it mildly depressing in this day and age. But this is a whole other tangent/thread.

Not to say that many of the Detroit guys haven't helped push this "only the world we come from could produce this music" viewpoint.

The value was in combination, not isolation. I personally get very bored with Surgeon, Jeff Mills, Derrick May, Blake Baxter, etc. on a track-by-track basis but I got bored with individual web pages in 1994 as well - the WHOLE is what gets me goin.

Yeah lately I've been hearing about this thing called a DJ mix or a DJ set..

My early posts in this thread were bullshit but no one else was doing much better really.

I'm kind of frontin because honestly, i didn't get into Derrick May for a long time (context: didn't arrive at clubbing age until early 00s) "Nude photo" and "strings" did weird me out and make me feel things but for the most part his stuff just went right through me. Certain tracks kept worming their way into my 'soul' and at a certain point I started listening to Innovator a ton and eventually it all hit me like "damn, those hats are sick, that synthstring lead in "is it was it is" is filling my heart with universal love, "r-theme" makes me imagine purple deserts and castles in a utopia on another planet, these drums overall make me want to dance/escape my body". Listening to his drum breakdowns brings such pleasure to me, such a good time.

brimstead your posts itt fill me with joy

^^^^^

lol i never know when people are being sincere around here (myself included), but thank you (sincerely)

sincere luv bruv

i think I'm increasingly w(e)ary of using anything other than the music itself and its effects as a basis to defend or criticise something.

Like stores about soul have zero interest for me but this is just really fucking ace music so let's talk about that.

otm

i think i used to like certain music for shall we say "sociological" reasons and i'm kind of over that these days

also basically w(e)ary of any stripe of broadbrush oppositionalism but that's a me-thing that I don't necessarily expect others to share.

thing is sometimes the conclusions from the sociologial reasoning aren't wrong, but they're maybe right for the wrong reasons?

People who want to talk about the magic of Derrick May are onto something essentially true and correct but they may then bullshit themselves or others about what the nature of that magic is.

As usual the issue isn't the music itself or our reactions to it but how that gets reduced to conversations.

Of course this whole line of reasoning is basically "how I talked myself out of being a music critic".

'the music itself' is never just 'the music itself' some things are indivisible

fully support not being a music critic though

xp yeah especially when it comes to music with lyrics

'the music itself' is never just 'the music itself' some things are indivisible

― ≖_≖ (Lamp), Saturday, November 8, 2014 5:46 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

On the one hand sure, on the other hand like what though, apart from what the listener imagines.

I'm not saying "let's not talk about the artist or the music videos or politics" so much as that the idea that you'll understand derrick may when you've felt the streets of detroit in your soul gets it the wrong way round.

Better to say: "one of the things I like about derrick may is that when I listen to his music it not only reminds me of walking the streets of detroit but makes that reminiscence feel more meaningful than it might otherwise."

the 'walking the streets of detriot' guy is also the 'perfect synthesis of refined european culture and savage african soul' guy and obviously its all of a piece in how he hears derrick may and i think its valuable to know that. i mean id rather he talk about that stuff than try to describe the music in technical terms because even the 'purely musical' is going to be shaded by his whole 'cerberal kraftwerk vs. soulful black music' dichotomy

i mean i dont think i need to walk the streets of detroit or buy into some noble savage myth to 'get' derrick may but obviously 2001 ilm poster micheal taylor did and thats sort of interesting to me

okay to be clear I'm not trying to draw some strict dichotomy between musicology vs other stuff, more this idea that you can appeal to some higher authority of any sort (incl. musicological authority!) outside of "this is how this shit makes me feel."

Which is not the same as hyper-subjectivity though it probably looks like it.

Weird to be having this argument now though b/c my immediate thought when reading back was "I'm more sympathetic to mt's position than I was back then".

i half agree with you

i think im always more interested in how music is situated in the world than strictly how it sounds but i understand others who dont share that feeling, i dont think thats the best or only approach. but i do think its generally easier to dialogue with

funnily enough i dont really agree with any of that dudes take on derrick may but i can see how for a british in 2001 it might make sense

mt's not a british though

"It's just cool music, who cares about 'soul' or mythmaking or whatever, i'll bet you like some pretty shitty music yourself, mr emporor"

― brimstead, Saturday, November 8, 2014 1:14 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah I stand corrected, I was being a contrary prick earlier today.

I dont play Derricks records as often as others from that time perhaps, but this is probably the one i play the most, great stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxiyXoY3vVk

The track on NDATL is great too, not sure if unreleased from the vaults he contributed or recent recording

i think im always more interested in how music is situated in the world than strictly how it sounds but i understand others who dont share that feeling, i dont think thats the best or only approach. but i do think its generally easier to dialogue with

to square this off, I agree with this, but I think most of "how music is situated in the world" is really in people's heads and the power of that really derives from how many heads get swept up in or changed by that, or to put it another way, the persuasiveness or the contagiousness of that frame.

Which is what I mean when I say I think of the "Detroit Soul" of Derrick May's music as an effect rather than a cause of its greatness.

yeah i'm feeling your sentiment a lot, lamp. as much as i'd like to think i treat all music as just sound/air, there are obvious accoutrements like visual style, historical or geographical context that play a part in my enjoyment of music. not to mention my own biased preconceptions based on past experience or whatever.

I don't disagree with that but I do think a lot of people wed themselves to a very narrow interpretation of it

not to mention my own biased preconceptions based on past experience or whatever.

I really dislike this feeling, making a subconscious decision about a record because of the name on the sleeve, before I've even heard it, though Ive got better at shutting that feeling away I prefer hearing new (to me) music without knowing who its by first, which kind of happens through mixes anyhow.

Though there are so many records I'm so often like 'ah shit whats this one again' that i invariably end up losing all the context stuff

seeing derrick tonight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he let the side down on the bbc4 kraftwerk documentary last night, saying that most techno producers dont deserve to be associated with kraftwerk because 'a lot of techno is shitty'. what are these genres where 90% of the music is pure gold?

He's been saying that since the early 90s, right? Something about how the European rave scene corrupted his beautiful utopian music or whatever... Seems like he couldn't just deal with the fact that once you let your child into the world it'll no longer be yours.

his set was pretty wack

Isn't basically 90% of things derrick may says self-posturing nonsense anyways?

The true rebels always walk alone anyway.

maybe it wasn't wack, it just wasn't what i wanted to hear

What kind of stuff did he play? Can't actually think of all that many name DJs that play interesting sets!

very straightforward tribal tech house

nothing i recognized

tony humphries, who came on before him, was much more exciting for me. he played "voodoo ray" pitched up and closed out his set with http ://www.y outube.com/watch?v=KiKnM31VY3c

derrick couldn't stop cutting the midrange, wouldn't stop dropping the bass

What you're saying is no surprise, I dont blame him for phoning it in but its kind of par for the course

I've herd his sets described as "Derrick meh..."

Same could be said for Stacey Pullen who churns out pretty bland tech house when he dj's these days.

Would anything different really be expected? ...same can be said for most, how many people are (currently) good producers AND (currently) good DJs?

Levon Vincent
Omar S
Floating Points

There's probably some others

Of course it comes down to personal taste and who those people are will vary from person to person, but people trade manage to trade on their name for seemingly...ever

There's probably some others...

Dan Snaith
DJ Pete
DJ Sprinkles
Theo Parrish

Objekt

"how many people are (currently) good producers AND (currently) good DJs?"

My experience has been... most? (Usually it comes down more to working with a sound than a particular aptitude, which is much harder to pin down in a set anyways). The real question is why do some people think being a good dj 25 years ago means being a good dj today. as mentioned here and elsewhere, derrick may, kevin saunderson, and stacey pullen, and even occasionally carl craig aren't stranger to sets full of middling tech house. DJ pierre played some of the worst electro-acid house ai've heard when I saw him, and more recently, Joey Beltram wasn't any better. None of this is the rule nor the exception, and it's heartening to hear about people like Tony Humphries still delivering, but what this comes down to is yeah, I'm not surprised Derrick May goes on records talking about the degradation of techno while playing sets of straightforward tribal tech house.

Also, I just read the post about whether he has copies of his records that stay on time. Ha! good question.

OK, I"m going to now add "Derrick May's quirks" to the things that make you irrationally angry thread.

Carl Craig was fucking awesome when I saw him fwiw

mind you tony humphries played three tracks in a row that had sax solos so i'm not sure it's for all tastes

xpost: I seem to remember a lot of complaints about Carl Craig - mind you, back in like 2007/8 - about playing the sort of middling tech house that, well... was being released on planet e at the time. I still need to see him play proper (not the 10 minutes I saw at Mutek in 2008 where I literally could not figure out what he was doing - he was using like 3 CDJs but was on his laptop the entire time, and trainwrecking stuff), but don't doubt he delivers.

also, A+ work, Tony Humphries.

I saw him 2 or 3 years ago he was mostly playing classic detroit stuff and ended with "Strings of Life", which he played air piano to in the booth.

when i saw carl craig in 2006 he did a laptop set that sounded exactly like his studio k7 "sessions" mix, it was pretty rad

or 07 or 08 i forget which year

i love that mix

the time i heard carl craig play it was unfortunately middling tech house, but it was at a party that was part of festival in miami and the vibe there was not cool

Carl Craig, Darren Emerson and Mr C are the most disappointing DJs i've ever seen. Carl Craig played a very generic set that included a few detroit classics but was very dull. Emerson and Mr C just played the most obnoxious, predictable commercial house sets. I had a japanese DJ mix from Derrick May but the mixing on it was so awful I sold it.

i heard a half hour of derrick dj'ing last night. not much fiddling with the eq, mixing still exceptional and full of energy, room with about 1000 people in it going nuts. tempo around 135 bpm. musically there was nothing i would have wanted to find out what it was and yes i guess it was "very straightforward tribal tech house".

yeeeeeeesh

When Eric Morillo died, people talked on insider threads that Derrick May is next, that it's something people "known" for a long time. I'm not sure why people sit on that kind of "knowledge", as it only endangers more women to become victims, but no more: https://t.co/rGVUPogSnI pic.twitter.com/S3N4Z7agME

— ØPĮÛM HUM / Michail 🏳️‍🌈👌🏻Ⓥ (@opiumhum) September 9, 2020

Michael James has been posting about that for months (years?). Also taking credit for collaborators work.

Jesus, that sucks

I don't understand pressuring the journalist for RA to publish the full interview. That's entirely her decision surely.

Looks like I just deleted by accident the original post about Derrick May and the reporting done by Michael James on the matter. You can find all of it below and I recommend to go through his archive, as he's been covering this for quite some time.
https://t.co/3oeRj6CkqY pic.twitter.com/qiSsSoejO9

— ØPĮÛM HUM / Michail 🏳️‍🌈👌🏻Ⓥ (@opiumhum) September 10, 2020

this is a good thread (the ilx thread, not the twitter one about derrick being an abuser)

it's heartening to hear about people like Tony Humphries still delivering

did i mention he played seated with a lollipop headphone?

sad news abt derrick, i’m still not convinced about his dj skills but “it is what it is” and “nude photo” are still in my all time top 10 of any genre. i wonder if i’ll ever feel comfortable playing them again

also brimstead’s posts still fill me with joy

want to know if he can still listen to derrick

I know it's less important, but I do want to learn more about who deserves credits for some of those classics. Stories about how collaborators contributed much more to tracks known solely as Mays, to entire songs actually being by Carl Craig. Relics changed me.

This has always intrigued me. I see Thomas Barnett released Nude Photo under his own name. Does anyone know if this is the same Rhythim Is Rhythim version?

No, it's completely different.

https://www.discogs.com/Thomas-Barnett-Nude-Photo/release/109013

These Derrick May accusations are extremely disturbing.

I'm not shocked at any revelations these days but I still used to harbour ridiculously naive assumptions about unassailably cool musical hero types 10 years back. It still sucks shit though :(

also brimstead’s posts still fill me with joy

want to know if he can still listen to derrick

"nude photo"

:-/

Have to say the May accusations have depressed me. Totally. He and Atkins created what’s, to me, some of the most beautiful and personal electronic music of the last 50 years - huge inspirations to me as a budding music maker. He was always amiable whenever I ran into him - best memory was at the 2007(8?) DEMF when I was watching Jeff Mills from above and behind the Main Stage close ( aka masterfully cap off ) the festival and May out of nowhere tapped me on the shoulder to ask “What do you think about this guy? Good,huh?” and gave a huge laugh when I responded, surprised it was May asking, with a jokey “He’s cool.” Never meet your heroes.

to be honest, this is something i've never understood. detroit techno retrosnobberygoldenagism can be one of the worst going. what i've heard of his stuff is, um, ok, i guess. he's been living off strings of life for, like, how long?

*

I got a compilation of his stuff and was surprised by how weak and tinny and old it sounded. Not particularly funky either. I much prefer what I've heard of Juan Atkins/Model 500.

These two comments (both 19 years old, yikes) sum up my feelings on May. I bought that Innovator double-CD compilation years ago and had a similar reaction to it – mostly forgettable standard-issue techno.

The best thing on it by a million miles was a remix entitled Strings Of The Strings Of Life. May has been dining out on past glories for decades and there aren't even very many of them.

Not entirely surprised by these allegations, he invariably came across as a massively arrogant and sneery wanker in interviews.

that's interesting. i've personally not really heard many tracks that do sound like "it is what it is" or "nude photo". perhaps you could point us toward some standard issue techno tracks that do, so we don't have to listen to music by an abuser.

mostly forgettable standard-issue techno

he made lots of music that is anything but standard-issue but I don't really feel like defending his music in light of all of this. I can't imagine wanting to hear it again.

I used to know him pretty well and once upon a time would have said I'd find it hard to imagine all these stories being true, but sadly life has shown me you just never know what people are capable of.

Yeah this is just horrible. Worse it still feels like the tip of an iceberg.

that's interesting. i've personally not really heard many tracks that do sound like "it is what it is" or "nude photo". perhaps you could point us toward some standard issue techno tracks that do, so we don't have to listen to music by an abuser.

No thanks, although I'm sure this passive-aggressive bullshit probably sounded much better in your head.

your post was really awesome and worthwhile, jon123, thank you for your contribution

(sounded better in my head)

sorry if i come across as a massively arrogant and sneery wanker, it was an honest question

i mean i'm happy for you that you're not feeling the sense of loss the rest of us are ... it would probably help me process my grief and disappoint better if i wasn't so attached to my favorite music

guess i just have bad taste or something

tlg, you sounded fine. a little flippant, which given the “I was always right, this guy sucks” comment you were responding to, is relatable

stirmonster’s post is great and reminded me a lot of a guy I knew who had always been pretty nice to me and had some level of accomplishment (in the restaurant business, which... I’d say there are parallels to music) until similar allegations came to light and it was the beginning of an entire house of cards dropping.
of course, the first reaction from a bunch of people was “his food sucked”

I was listening to something today that had a spoken word bit talking about Detroit techno history and as soon as I heard May’s name my heart sunk

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgroove.de%2F2020%2F09%2F11%2Fdie-causa-erick-morillo-und-derrick-may-den-opfern-ein-forum-geben%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0RqWFgTerrqDp84RYXnUSboj0vL3SLVgcJOh9OzHv5AL6_lUZ4LfCnKR8&sandbox=1

https://undergroundandblack.com/2020/09/12/setting-the-record-straight/

Carl’s reaction to this is dispiriting to say the least

idk derrick was his like mentor and older brother. i was just looking at the liners to the psyche / bfc comp and he talks about how he recorded all that shit as a teenager at derrick's place with his guidance. i mean for all we know derrick molested him too

i agree that it's dispiriting but honestly it's par for the course with this sort of thing

i'm not trying to make excuses for cc but in my professional life i've seen moms carry water for spouses who beat them and teenagers do the same for relatives that raped them so i'm just not at all surprised when close friends circle the wagons around abusers.

it's totally understandable why CC would defend him. Misguided and wrong, but understandable.

Kill yr idols.

i never wanted to but more and more it looks like i'm going to have to ... i mean i really thought dance music was a plur utopia compared to, say, hip hop rock country or metal ... shows how dumb i was

DJ Mag talks to many of the women:

https://djmag.com/longreads/multiple-women-report-sexual-assault-and-harassment-derrick-may

just absolutely fucking awful

Sickening.

A further story, more accounts:

https://ra.co/features/3828

the difference between detroit and those other cities is that there are semi-interesting things happening there. it is a near vacuum out here. There are poor people everywhere, but those cities have actual functioning urban environments. You know, like people walking around downtown after 5pm. Detroit is screwed up even in the nice places, if you want to see what happens when regional planning makes every decision incorrectly for 60 years, it will look a lot like southeastern michigan.

Yeh, but May wouldn't be able to spend 10 minutes in a London jungle club without crying like a baby fearing that the unemployed crackheads were out to shoot him. That's what you Yanks don't get about UK, you wanted to disavow hip hop for not being elegant enuf, whereas we had no pretensions otherwise. Of course 91 hardcore made rave awful! That what makes it so good, give the posh blokes an aneurism. It got even better in 93 when people started to get mugged. It's the truth. Jeff Mills was total rudeboy, he is miles above May because he started out in hip hop. You can tell it in his mixing. There's also more of a futuristic latin vibe in Mills, much more how samba actually sounds in Brazil at that speed.

great revive

xtra xtra xtra spiced funky, m8! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az3VJj88OAM

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZyBuweob8

Kraftwerk were tbf the original sin of techno, too feudalistic and romantic, too indebted to petit-bourgeois psychosexual fascination with mastering machines. Techno got really good when the dead labour living in the machines dominated man. What was needed was a psychotic soul, derived from electro.

hey thirdform.

Kraftwerk were feudalistic AND petit bourgeois? Does that mean they were European AND white? My lack of awareness just shows how much I’ve been assimilated, probably.

This bit tho:

It got even better in 93 when people started to get mugged.

I was just listening to I think Fabio & Grooverider’s first Kiss FM show from ‘91, it’s a bit shit. I can certainly see how ‘93 would be an improvement.

nah, you want Top Buzz nye 1991-1992. Leo Anibaldi bassbar!

*furiously Googling*

Shit I accidentally bolded

Kraftwerk were feudalistic AND petit bourgeois? Does that mean they were European AND white? My lack of awareness just shows how much I’ve been assimilated, probably.

No, just romantics for a bygone society. D.A.F were the true blood, muscle and sinew of German proletarian music at the time. No real classical melodic content, just bluesy synth sequences set to punish yer body industrial beats. The factory is sex. Screw that hippy space nonsense. Get raw.

hey thirdform.

Hoping for someone to recommend me private press Mongolian cumbia meets throat singing meets speedcore noise lps on here. Other place is getting a bit too grandad. Told Lucius to defend the lads before the Germany game but alas.

*furiously Googling*
― recovering internet addict/shitposter (viborg), Tuesday, 29 June 2021 09:46 (one hour ago)

check this one as well from '91

proper guttertronix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DooDLH23w-Y

I like how the Derrick May thread now becomes a dumping ground for all that hardcore stuff he so deeply despises.

Well, since you asked so nicely:
https://www.mixcloud.com/y7nlwz/dj-dsl-energy-fm-879-1st-april-1995/

That's what you Yanks don't get about UK, you wanted to disavow hip hop for not being elegant enuf, whereas we had no pretensions otherwise.

literally what the fuck are you talking about with this bullshit?

lmao

so sad that the US disavowed hip hop. will we never understand this strange and exotic music the way the UK does?

lool some steaming hot-takes

is this Leeroy Thornhill

I'm guessing he means UK hiphop, but it's a puzzler.

literally what the fuck are you talking about with this bullshit?
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 29 June 2021 14:17

It's not bullshit. There's no hip hop in Derrick May's vision of detroit techno. May was a complete europhile (probably the most europhilic out of that bunch.) So when people like Michael Taylor called hardcore awful, it makes sense why. I mean it was $25 to get into the music institute, hardly cheap in peak reagan
era was it? May has marketted himself well, which is why people are shocked by him being an absolute piece of nasty work, because detroit techno is not a righteous music at all, not until UR and Mills come about. And Rob Hood was a big Public Enemy fan and Mills started out in hip hop. It's why they had a greater taste for hardcore and minimalist sounds.

Not really clear though how Derrick May is representative of US attitudes toward hip hop.

(also debatable that there's no hip hop influence in his music or DJing)

(also weird for views on techno and hip hop to stop somewhere in the early 90s)

also weird because Mills was a popular DJ in Detroit before May even started

Not really clear though how Derrick May is representative of US attitudes toward hip hop.

He isn't. That would disqualify a lot of aux 88, Drexciya, detroit electro and ghettotech orientated djs like DJ Assault (who incidentally has played chipmunk hardcore and jungle.)

But the US (and tbf UK Mayday purists) almost see dance music as being opposite to hip hop. In the UK hip hop merged into dance music. Quite a bit of hardcore actually has a britcore chassy which at the time was called hardcore cos it was faster than US HH.

And behave yourselves: there is no such thing as UK HH, it's a post-93 invension, angsty whiteboy rubbish.

yes, Mills was a hip hop orientated radio DJ. That's my point!

so in other words, the UK didn't have much of a hip hop scene, so they ended up embracing dance music that drew influence from and embodied the spirit of hip hop, while in the US, which has a massive hip hop scene, people tended to just enjoy hip hop. I think this mystery has been solved.

so in other words, the UK didn't have much of a hip hop scene, so they ended up embracing dance music that drew influence from and embodied the spirit of hip hop, while in the US, which has a massive hip hop scene, people tended to just enjoy hip hop. I think this mystery has been solved.

Yes, hip hop and acid house were part of the same imported street beats continuum. It's why we were all over Todd Terry sampladelic ny hip house, even if that stuff was unthinkably mechanical for the proper disco/paradise garage-descended bods.

But, for instance, James Stinson and Gerald Donald were far more inventive than May ever was, but they don't fit into the same kind of white mythologising, because their music is not as susceptible to mythmaking. Whilst I cringe at this guys personal journey he has a point about a lot of white detroit purists:

The sense was like ‘they’ had tried to tell you that techno was something white, something cheesy, something commercial. Something soulless. But here, so the counter-narrative would have it, was ‘high tech soul’, made by real, oppressed black people (dreaming of space from a post-industrial ghetto). It was, so the riddle ran, a music so unquestionably authentic that to present an opinion to the contrary would invoke an accusation of ignorance, or even heresy, followed by a lecture on the Belleville Three. For white kids from the Melbourne suburbs, this allowed them to be righteously proud of aligning themselves with a noble tradition, which, in turn, allowed them to make peace with the fact that they all grew up listening to…. Technotronic, Snap, and M People, of course. Is it any different to the quiet joy of the Vanilla Ice fan who discovers Ice T and Ice Cube? He who ended up in Wu Wear often began with Twelve Inches of Snow. Never, ever underestimate the power of guilty pleasures in shaping musical taste.

So many old bods love Pink Floyd, one of the most obnoxiously English posh boy public school bands of all time. And actually, a lot of italo disco is the cheesy eurodance of its day. Noone in London likes it, because the black electroboogie/rnb from America (which maydays high school prep parties swerved to an extent for europhilia) was just so much more ahead of plustwo - melody or crazy gang babys song. I like both of those records, but I don't call them 'progressive' they are cheesy as all hell!

oops here's the article I pulled that quote from. http://mnmlssg.blogspot.com/2008/06/detroit-myth-hating-myth-creating-part_19.html

But the US (and tbf UK Mayday purists) almost see dance music as being opposite to hip hop. In the UK hip hop merged into dance music.

I don't think this is remotely true at all! It ignores the existence of the ghetto house/juke/footwork continuum, ghettotech, electro in its various forms, Baltimore/Jersey/Philly club, Miami bass, NYC house going back as far as Todd Terry, LA beat scene/wonky stuff, ballroom/voguing beats, Detroit house, hip house, like 75% of Afro-American dance music ever made. Maybe true of whitewashed festy stuff and techno europhiles and some of the more purist house strains (the latter of which absolutely embraces other pre-electronic Black American musical forms), but so much US dance music has been intimately connected to hip-hop all along, just not necessarily the stuff that's been embraced the most by the yt dance establishment. And Moodles' point applies as well. If I go see any of my friends DJ, at least half the tracks they drop are going to have explicit hip-hop influences, if not just straight up dropping hip-hop tracks into their dance sets.

James Stinson and Gerald Donald were far more inventive than May ever was, but they don't fit into the same kind of white mythologising

what?!?!?!

because their music is not as susceptible to mythmaking

WHAT?!?!?!

Does Derrick May extensively play ghetto house or juke? Because I never heard him do so and ive listened to quite a lot of his sets. i saw DJ Rashad in London at around the same time I saw May, and I know which one I would go see again, if he were still alive.

Pink Floyd rules

I feel like this goes back to the argument we had on twitter a while back when you described east coast club as posh, middle class, student-y dance music, which is not how I as a Black American experience that music at all.

xp: not afaik, but it looked like you were painting US dance music in general with that brush, not just Derrick May

But the US [...] almost see dance music as being opposite to hip hop.

would absolutely see rashad over may

same, although seeing Carl Craig end a ight by dropping "Strings of Life" and playing air piano was an absolute moment of bliss

night*

ohhhh fuck, I completely missed the assault accusation stuff :(

Fair point. By dance music I meant more the house/techno mainstream. I have to remember that here house+techno in its more mainstream ittiration shies away from our more (hate the term) but 'urban' dance music forms.

I feel like this goes back to the argument we had on twitter a while back when you described east coast club as posh, middle class, student-y dance music, which is not how I as a Black American experience that music at all.
xp: not afaik, but it looked like you were painting US dance music in general with that brush, not just Derrick May
― Get Me Bodied (Extended Mix), Tuesday, 29 June 2021 22:23 (one minute ago)

tbf I wasn't referring so much to the actual jersey club stuff there but more this kind of Lotic/M.E.S.H/Mhysa (SP?) pan deconstructivism. I'd be the first to admit I know very little about jersey club, but its not my thing. Then again, this nicely segues into the point you made about experience. To me, Club was only presented through this university night slugs prism, by kids who would pretend to be so bad and heavy when they were anything but. And that is the charm of techno. This misinterpretation of italo disco, basically a music that predominantly has an afterlife outside of Italy and is not remembered as fondly over there.

A UK crowd at a Slimzee sidewinder set is totally different in every way to a UK crowd going to see Moodymann, Atkins or May. They just are, not even racially.

But then, conversely, people in UK crowd at a banging night seeing Surgeon and Jeff Mills are more likely to be into Wiley or Giggs. And most of them will probably be huge Remarc fans. That's how I got into techno, through jungle. so the fast banging stuff is not an aberration for me.

ftr I don't think all dance music has to be influenced by hip hop and not all electronic music I enjoy is so. But I can't see why May would else rail against breakbeat hardcore when it was no more cheesy than the Italo gash of his highschool days. In fact there is not much overtly evil darkside Italo is there? Whereas even in '91 there was quite a bit of dark breakbeat hardcore, Eon/Jay Saul Kane immediately come to mind.

tbf I wasn't referring so much to the actual jersey club stuff there but more this kind of Lotic/M.E.S.H/Mhysa (SP?) pan deconstructivism.

Yeah that's really an entirely different lane, which yes is more middle-class and studenty and intellectualized (and tbh really a bit past its peak), whereas actual club is just populist straight-up party music. The Baltimore stuff in particular is actually pretty deeply influenced by your beloved hardcore in its use of breakbeats to break away from a 4x4 house structure, which carries through to the Jersey and Philly stuff even if they drop the breakbeats a lot of the time. The deconstructed stuff is pretty explicitly a more middle class reinterpretation of more vernacular dance forms (club among others) though.

Try these on for size:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP0UV5My4vA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsxaYtu-Klk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj70BvCC7JE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZiY8xb_lGk

Fair point. By dance music I meant more the house/techno mainstream. I have to remember that here house+techno in its more mainstream ittiration shies away from our more (hate the term) but 'urban' dance music forms.

Sure, and that rings true here as well, but in our case "mainstream" mostly just means divorced from its cultural, if not necessarily musical, roots. I don't really care that much what white american dance music people who don't fuck with most of the shit I listed earlier are into or not.

I guess my ultimate point is that May's europhilia and disinterest in if not outright rejection of hip-hop is ultimately much more exceptional among Black American dance music producers/DJs than not.

i actually was at a gig that UNIIQU3 played at, i think it was a butterz night with Elijah and Skilliam, DJ Q etc. But I arrived at the end of her set cos my friends were being weird. Will give em a listen. Do you know this queen beat byrell the great? They did this quite cool vogue house mix, but it was very clattering, almost like 90s (hate the term) but 'tribal' rimshot vibes. This must have been 2014 or so, will need to check my hd.

Yeah Reynolds describes the archetypical house/techno head in the UK, upper working to lower middle class and quite discerning as a form of separation. As someone who is Asian i tend to see positives in both the ruffneck junglist warriors and the cool, composed shirts and shoes garage/rare groove types. If I was a white kid though I'd probably be more punk about this. Thank heavens thats not the case.

But I can't see why May would else rail against breakbeat hardcore when it was no more cheesy than the Italo gash of his highschool days.

Yeah Byrell definitely lives up to his name. I don't know him personally (although I do know some of the other Qween Beat folks) and never seen him play in person. And yeah vogue beats are pretty heavily influenced by 90s "tribal" house. A lot of those tracks were what people vogued to at the time before it split off into its own thing in the 2000s. Stuff like "Wtich Doktor" and "Icy Lake".

I feel like in the US, outside of the places where they have deep roots, "proper" house/techno have a lot of the time been a more classed, often older, and definitely in the latter case more white. In recent years a lot of younger people have been getting into techno though, including a project of reclaiming its Black origins, and interestingly to me a lot of the EDM festy kids of 10 years ago seem to have aged out of that style into house. I have this distinct memory a few years back of going to a long running house night that had been mostly populated by oldheads and seeing this long line of young EDM kids waiting to get in, which seemed like a notable turning point.

I guess my ultimate point is that May's europhilia and disinterest in if not outright rejection of hip-hop is ultimately much more exceptional among Black American dance music producers/DJs than not.

Sure, I agree. I don't buy the May hype though. I think he's a good salesman, and I can understand what people see in his ethereal strings, but give me Juan and Saunderson any day. And, I'm saying the quiet bit out loud now, but I think The Black Dog did that elegiac vibe better. That's not to discount his historical impact but I mean I find the whole idea that people say like: 'detroit techno has the soul which no other city can capture' (usually said by white guys who want to look more righteous than thou.) So three weirdo white guys from Sheffield via London didn't make one of the greatest soulful techno albums in 1993? and it was just an imitation of detroit? ok then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Ai2OjJNXQ

But either way this binary is just so false. I went to see DJ Stingray multiple times (fantastic, some of the best nights of my life) and whilst there is a soulfulness in his alien electro it's much less directly tied to that 70s disco lineage. People forget just how brutal some of the detroit jocks can get.

This timeline makes no sense. Italo disco’s zenith was 85-86, barely a year before May, aged 24, produced Strings Of Life.

You're missing my point. Italo is not credible music. It's the cookiecutter eurotrance of its day. It's actually not very liked in Italy amongst serious music types. Nothing wrong with that, but how is it ok for May and Craig to love that shit but then for May to rail against UK hardcore for perverting the detroit vision? It's hardly as if he came out of his mums womb with a pristine musical taste.

compare and contrast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Qb1tsoYZg

with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWytoa9ut8o

Also re: all this talk of europhilia vs hip-hop, it’s probably notable that major German techno pioneer WestBam (short for Westphalia Bambaata) produced a ton of hip-hop and most notably, scored a worldwide hit with his remix for 2 Live Crew.

I’ve actually been on a bit of a Westbam revisit the past week to see if his work still holds up 35 years later and if there’s more to him as a producer than just rose-tinted nostalgia for his (awesome) 90s rave hits - so far I have to say it does and there is.

I mean, Derrick May's always been a bit up his own ass, not sure what else to say.

Worth noting that a lot of the OG Chicago house types were pretty heavily influenced by italo too although they didn't necessarily have the same obsession with its trappings and within a few years they'd shed a lot of that influence.

Re: Italo not teken seriously in Italy, did anyone read The History Of Italo Disco by Francesco Cataldo Verrina? Be warned that the English translation is atrociously bad (think Google Translate, ten years ago), but that kind of feels on-brand for a book on Italo.

Anyway, through the mangled prose and some blatant attempts at mythmaking, it does manage to shine quite a bit of light on the reasons why the Italian critics never took Italo seriously (rampant rockism of the 70s protest generation, mainly, coupled with kneejerk xenophilia, ie “it’s local so there’s no way we can take this seriously”).

Also it’s striking that despite the appearance of cheap cheesiness, the producers themselves did take the music very seriously, one thing that becomes quite clear through the dozens if interviews in that book is that this was not at all like the rave days with bedroom producers on Amigas, these Italo dudes were perfectionists that would slave for days to get the right electro tom sound out of some pretty expensive studio gear.

Anyway, recommended.

abesimpsonwalkinginandout.gif

I mean, Derrick May's always been a bit up his own ass, not sure what else to say.

Sure. My detroit heroes in the less Millsian vein are Anthony Shakir and Claude Young. Who continued putting out records, unlike May who stopped around 1990. I have a semi-conspiracy theory that a lot of Mays seminal tracks have heavy input from Marty Bonds, but no music journalist will know who that is. Hint: he's the guy who ltj bukem sampled in Atlantis lads. Original real by real track is immense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv0Ze8vtf2Y

I mean the reinforced boys also spent days with amigas. They are powerful tools, I don't understand why they have this reputation of only being about simple production. Some of the chops and changes in Bizzy B tracks are quite crazy, and to think he did it all by hand.

Worth noting that a lot of the OG Chicago house types were pretty heavily influenced by italo too although they didn't necessarily have the same obsession with its trappings and within a few years they'd shed a lot of that influence.

Yes, this is why (to me) chicago house was more techno than first wave techno. The original techno almost.

“Your love” feels pretty italo to me as an example. Always kind of funny it’s the signaturate Frankie tune cuz it’s a slight outlier

used to hear this a lot at oldskool hardcore nights as the warm up, the cowbell loop bongo percussion used to spin me out. Proper mechanical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WywgPyAN4M

heard Paul Damage play this Saunderson joint amongst a load of woody mcbride/midwest acid, pitched up. Big Kev knew the score. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l96W1LJTmg

Yes, this is why (to me) chicago house was more techno than first wave techno. The original techno almost.

iirc the early (post-Cybotron) Detroit stuff was just considered house until Atkins dubbed it otherwise as the scenes were starting to move in different directions.

“Your love” feels pretty italo to me as an example.

Definitely. A lot of 84-86 era stuff in general.

It blew my mind when I realized Raze is Vaughan Mason of "Bounce Rock Skate Roll" fame

I mean I love italo disco to death and I dig a good critical rehabilitation story as much as the next guy, but I don’t really buy the supposed huge italo influence on the detroit producers, even though it makes a great story, and some great retrospective DJ mixes. Much more a case of parallel development than sequential. EBM and electro/hip-hop, different story. But hey, what do I know, I never walked at night through Detroit in 1986.

Also, as I’m getting older, I get more and more annoyed with some of the grand mythmaking bullshit of my generation. This bizarrely common idea that detroit techno was somehow amazingly innovative and unique amidst everything that came before and after, and got usurped by terrible cookiecutter hardcore/rave (that same chestnut gets wheeled out for each subsequent style btw, from trance, uk garage, hardstyle, italo dance, hard house psytrance, dubstep you name it). But you go back and listen to a random selection of late 80s techno 12”s (or livesets) and you notice the same hihat patterns, sound banks and structures in just about every fucking song, such mind numbing uniformity, I’m more and more realising that each scene clearly has its own cookiecutter, only the chefs are so caught up in the moment that they delude themselves into thinking the cutter doesn’t exist in their kitchen. And I used to believe all that shit too when I was young.

Honestly I'm kind of a latecomer to techno period because when I was coming up that scene here was dominated by egghead Moby clones, so I never bought much into that specific mythos or veneration.

to be fair detroit techno guys are hardly the only mythmakers out there, it’s so ubiquitous you can practically make a bingo card for it, when you watch any music documentary.

Honestly I'm kind of a latecomer to techno period because when I was coming up that scene here was dominated by egghead Moby clones, so I never bought much into that specific mythos or veneration.
― Get Me Bodied (Extended Mix), Wednesday, 30 June 2021 01:16 (four minutes ago)

I mean I used to say there are techno strains of dubstep when it came on the pirates and people used to be like this guys chatting nonsense, but I think this is why I've always had a problem with the club as the prime experiential space. For me this music really unlocked its potential at peoples yard, huge spliff being passed around, a good sub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgdw3_rVrRY

Not to mention the inherent 'we are the clique' aspect of club doors. At first I thought it was amazing to be part of this select few and quickly I realised I don't actually have much in common with these people.

That Italo book I mentioned does that too btw - the author’s main message is that Italo Disco was unique and rich and varied, full of amazing artists, skilled producers, inspired by a rich musical history, wrote only the most marvelous, uniquely Italian melodies - clearly the best thing ever. While of course it’s crystal clear that the Italo house that displaced it in one fell swoop in 1988 was cheap, badly produced cookie cutter garbage by talentless hacks, just out for a buck.

And yet despite all that, it’s an immensely entertaining (and informative) read.

I prefer the cheesy piano stuff personally

one of my all-time faves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBttSU1yDP8

Yeah but talk to the heavily invested italo piano/dream house collectors, and ask their opinion on the “mediterranean progressive” sound that displaced it overnight in Italy circa 95/96, and you hear some familiar soundbites.

that one mix of “no ufos” totally sounds like “robot is systematic”

well for a few seconds anyway

xp I'm sure although I have no idea what that is

That Italo book I mentioned does that too btw - the author’s main message is that Italo Disco was unique and rich and varied, full of amazing artists, skilled producers, inspired by a rich musical history, wrote only the most marvelous, uniquely Italian melodies - clearly the best thing ever. While of course it’s crystal clear that the Italo house that displaced it in one fell swoop in 1988 was cheap, badly produced cookie cutter garbage by talentless hacks, just out for a buck.
And yet despite all that, it’s an immensely entertaining (and informative) read.

That's interesting because I think late 90s trance is the same. Those progressive records are much better produced than the brain bashing minimalism of techno, yet on the whole they do nothing for me. High production standards can mean too many novelty tricks for the sake of it. this just ends up sounding like aural wallpaper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfJQ4l5wbMk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGhsFamZE_I

this is my favourite italo though, much rawer, much more the way I wish the genre sounded. It's great pitched ut at +16 Claudio Simonetti (from Goblin) magic. Big Millsy favourite and you can see why. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2T-0ucWAi8

not sure why this is all getting dumped on this thread

attributing a lot of weight to May’s opinions on music outside of his narrow sphere is buying into his importance and legacy in a way he’s really pushed for decades. after releasing a handful of essential tracks in the formative years of a genre he’s sold the legend ever since, with occasional dj spots and business connections filling in the blanks

mr pires makes some interesting points that’d probably be better served on a thread not about a probable serial harasser/rapist

Your love doesn’t just “feel” Italo. It’s built on Electras Feels Good. And any talk on Italo that cites it’s zenith as 85 is conflating totally different phases and scenes. The Italo that hugely influenced house and techno is primarily late 70s euro disco and the circa 82 electro Italo that was widely imported through New York and Chicago. There’s a fare amount of cheesiness in there but it’s very different than what Italo was in 85.

There's a certain 'cunning of reasoning' metanarrative to the fact that while May was bashing UK hardcore techno in the early 90s, by the late 00s detroit techno was being used as a stick with which to beat minimal - which, if anything, was on the other side of detroit techno from hardcore, and was being dismissed in nearly diametrically opposite terms (other than the US vs Europe dichotomy) as being too white, too posh, too clean.

Which goes to the point that mythmaking/gatekeeping tends to be infinitely flexible and ultimately devoid of real content once it's being used by one group as a stick to beat another.

I think there was a Theo Parrish interview circa 2008 that got talked about a lot here where he made some vague reference to not liking a lot of popular clubbing music and everyone who read it just assumed that they knew exactly what music he was referring to and why - a Rorschach test for dance music taste.

(or maybe it was Omar-S? I can't remember now)

'Detroit techno' of course describes a very broad swathe of music (even in terms of just the difference between May and Saunderson, say) which makes it even more readily able to be deployed to serve just about any rhetorical device one wishes.

it's also especially laughable when discussions of future-forward music get stuck debating what the realest shit was 30 years ago

That's interesting because I think late 90s trance is the same. Those progressive records are much better produced than the brain bashing minimalism of techno, yet on the whole they do nothing for me. High production standards can mean too many novelty tricks for the sake of it. this just ends up sounding like aural wallpaper.

any talk on Italo that cites it’s zenith as 85 is conflating totally different phases and scenes

xpost: that said, that Cass & Slide tune is indeed boring as fuck.

Nah, it does nothing for you because you were just too old when 90s trance came along and it wasn't your scene. I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, that's just how this whole thing works. Virtually nobody appreciates the stuff that came right *after* their favourite era of music.

Actually no. I was into UK garage (well, 2step especially the overtly poppy shola ama end of it) at the time. Which did have some polished production values but this progressive stuff is panaramic in a way 2step wasn't. In a way I see that as it's strength. But it's not a strength I'm interested in. Complexity can be a curse. I was actually too young at the time to know about the earlier (mid 90s german trance.) Hardly what teenagers glued into the london pirates had access to. But to me trance should have always sounded like this. Amphetamine psychosis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQK32947YTA

I actually can't find much hard trance even from this 1993 era that is eerie and gothic like this. Nu beat for the raver generation.

There's tons of that, mostly German and Belgian though.

trance, like techno, is a very wide umbrella though, in terms of sonics, geography/scenes and eras. It's almost impossible to make useful generalized statements about it.

Discussions at this point on techno realness (with or without involving trance) are too poisoned by all the posturing, mythmaking and gatekeeping. The same tired cliches are getting wheeled out in 2021 as if they're brand new insights, just see any discogs forum. At some point you've read it all. This shit is 30+ years old, if you're invested in this music you know the score by now.

^^^^

Many of you sound very old, none of the young people making rave music talk like this, and disdain these discussions of purity and realness. Rightly so.

I am very old, but I agree, although there is definitely a trend of extremely hip up and coming techno and acid purists who spin the classics.

Lectric Workers

Thank you for mentioning this name, I know jack shit about Italo-Disco of any era but I love the singles I pulled up on YT.

though not limited to italo disco, check out I-F's Mixed Up at the Hague, a 2000-era mix that re-codified italodisco for a new generation.

^^ so good and so fun

Was going to also mention, a great thing about Chicago house (and its heavy Italo content) is that the blueprints of what went into it are all in mixes on YouTube from the mid 80s WBMX era

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekveVpJhYdI

pretty much how I view Mills' Wizard mixes and techno

Many of you sound very old, none of the young people making rave music talk like this

sorry, nobody under eighty. i’m getting old.