Why is The Genre Of 'Metal' so maligned?

Why do people malign metal? Beats me - but it does come with a lot of tasteless, tuneless history.

I agree with Scott completely. Most dont wont investigate the genre it maligns. Or opinions are based on what they heard 15 years or more ago.
Theres plenty of heavy music that isnt just 'heavy metal' but has elements of metal combined with other music. This music just gets dismissed as 'Dumb metal'.
Neurosis or Isis are as relevant as Aphex Twin or Squarepusher or any other critical favorite in the world of music. But maybe the real reason its maligned is because its seen as populist music. Who Knows?

I've asked myself this question many times.

I think most people would like it for the reasons I like it but are put off by:

The clothes, leather, denim, heeeeeeuge trousers
The lyrics - satan, dragons, angst
The personalities (of the band members)
The fact that it's mostly kids that like it
The album covers
etc.
etc.
etc.

None of these things attract me to the music but they don't bother me much either.

(And though the economic class of hip-hop's audience might ALSO be the same as that of metal and country, the RACIAL MAKEUP of those listeners would tend to be somewhat different. Which I bet matters.)

(Though obviously class distinctions also exist WITHIN the hip-hop audience -- and within metal and country audiences for that matter -- and THOSE distinctions often help determine what gets maligned by whom, too. I.E: Critics respect the Roots more than Trick Daddy, Metallica more than Poison, Steve Earlie more than Toby Keith, etc.)

i like voivod.

but sometimes "real" metal sucks compared to the fake stuff.

Apart from Metallica, all these bands come from the hardcore or alt-rock side of things, not from the 'metal' lineage (as far as I know, these bands don't even consider *themselves* metal).

Exactly. When most people think of innovative metal, they come up with "Tool and Metallica" and that's pretty much the end of the road for them. That's partially by design; Death, Cryptopsy, Darkthrone, et al. are not looking for widespread support from critics, because it would trample on the "true metal" beliefs of the scene (though they too vary often). And for that, they're completely ignored.

Dillinger Escape Plan, Isis, and Shadows Fall have gotten the most interest of any metal bands in recent years, but that's mainly due to the fact that they equally draw from Hardcore (which at this point consists almost entirely of metal acts under a separate banner) as they do metal. In some cases, their contributions are also a bit overstated (DEP, for instance, is nothing more than a clone of Human Remains, a long forgotten NJ metal act).

-understands this was pretty much restating the case-
Alan

Scott's OTM about Anathema. I once played it for a person I was working in a record show with and they refused to accept that it was a metal band because of their own personal disinterest in the genre.

Chuck is OTM in return...except about the new Immortal.

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Alan

Well, "Serenades"/"Pentecost III"-era Anathema certainly was. Can't be bothered with the newer Pink Floyd worshipping, but if you mean that their past as a metal band holds them back even if there's no metal at all to be found on their newer albums, it's indeed pretty striking. Lots of ex-metal bands (Paradise Lost, Tiamat, Ulver, Katatonia) have had problems gaining a foothold in their new genres.

so what?? they're wrong.

and dillinger escape plan have as much to do with hardcore punk as metal, too, when you get down to it. though then again, lots of punk WAS metal. there hasn't been a clear line for 20 years, at least. if not since the sex pistols, or the stooges, or the kinks, or link wray.

(or, heh heh, the chambers brothers. but don't get me started again.)

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Alan

On the other hand, "sons of northern darkness" by immortal and that new album by old man's child aren't all they're cracked up to be, i swear.

Old Man's Child is completely generic, limp and worthless - haven't heard a single exciting riff in their albums, which can't even be said for Dimmu Borgir... The Immortal album isn't doing anything new either (epic heavy metal songs with black and death metal aesthetics) but somehow it's RARE to hear an album with such quality riffs, songwriting and production. It's also probably one of the few albums today that can be appreciated by both the older heavy metal crowd of the 70s/80s and the modern metal audience.

As for Alan: The Hellacopters ARE a generic Nomads ripoff.

(Though then again, the Nomads themselves were actually a generic Chocolate Watchband ripoff, which never stopped me from loving them. And Chocolate Watchband were a generic Yardbirds ripoff, which never stopped me from loving THEM. And the Hellacopters are better now that they're ripping off the first Montrose album, anyway.)

That's probably because Katatonia did a cover of "Nightmares By The Sea".

metal and hardcore are definitely different, especially socially/culturally; in terms of sound, there are minute differences that i am not necesasrily attuned to. there are also many different styles of hardcore and metal - slow, chuggachugga, d-beat, etc. i'm not wellversed in the topic but my drinking buddies are all hardcore and metalheads so they could answer better.

what was the root of the metal/hardcore crossover - later black flag albums?

This is going to fast for me. I've got a baby on my lap.

Raising a kid to a true CHILD OF METAL, I trust.

Well, the ROOT of metal/harcore crossover was *Raw Power* by the Stooges, probably. Or Blue Cheer. Or "My Generation," or whatever.

But in the early '80s, yeah, any Black Flag album after the first one (i.e.: *My War* and later) comes to mind, and after that distinctions fall like dominoes. Also: Flipper and the Angry Samoans, who were both stealing Sabbath riffs before Greg Ginn decided to, I think.

My favorite thing about Immortal is that they LOOK really cool.

2 reasons off the top of my head:
it became cartoonish
'metalheads' are maligned for other reasons than just the music they like...this is transferred to people thinking the same things about the genre

>>what was the root of the metal/hardcore crossover - later black flag albums? <<

WHO AM I? DRI =)

Well, they weren't alone, but they were very, very important. Also look at thrash's influence by Discharge, GBH, Raw Power, among others. Chuck's OTM about its ultimate root (but those are the roots of aggressive music as a whole).

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Alan

Especially the guy who appears to be carrying around a television antenna, or whatever that thing is. Also, *Sons of Northern Darkness* is a GREAT album title, so I really WANTED to like it. I just wish the album sounded darker and more northern to me, that's all.

While punk and metal have indeed crossbred many times and still are, I would argue that there are fundamental differences. The grey area between punk and metal is indeed large and artists from both sides borrow all kinds of techniques from each other, but the similarities between, say, ITNE-era Emperor, Winter or Graveland and the Cro-Mags, Korn or the Dead Kennedys are pretty few, in terms of melodic approach, songwriting, image, subculture, thematic focus and "values". There *is* something of an ESSENCE of metal, vague as it may be - just like the age old discussion of what is punk. Everyone knows that "punk" is more than just playing three chord rock 'n roll, but defining it is impossible. Metal seems to have the same 'problem'.

Wow, that felt GREAT. (Haven't done it in years!)

another band on the bill was "Iscariot: The Dark Masters of Metal"

they sounded like Rush, except satanic

when dude lit his guitar on fire, my friend Mike yelled out "take off, you knob" and dude looked like he was gonna cry

my friend Mike is mean.

Very wise child-rearing.

DRI always just seemed very LA -- not Sunset Strip, but *LA*, meals at taco joints and all that. Like people say Beck is, but Beck was Silverlake and is now Beverly Hills.

What little I've heard of them is worthwhile, but I'm sucker for loud and drony things.

I haven't either, but I have high hopes. Katatonia is one of the few bands that haven't disappointed me ONCE after a drastic style change. The secret of Katatonia is obviously Anders Nyströms knack for writing those guitar lines. But it'd be interesting to hear them write one of those long, repetitive drones of the "Brave Murder Day" years again, I liked that approach immensely and it would make a nice contrast with their current "traditional rock song" songwriting approach.

What I like most is the lyrics - the whole over-the-top obsession with winter, frost and storms is quite obviously tongue-in-cheek, yet delivered so seriously that it's only JUST showing. Something really unique, around all the hyper-serious bands.

Well, what I neglected to say here is that those albums all pretty much reek, despite their (seeming?) innovativeness. (Black Flag were a lot more fun BEFORE Rollins brought his shtick in.) The first Die Kreuzen album is later, but also better. And Scott's right about my old buddies the Necros. And Negative Approach figure in here as well.

I always assumed D.R.I. were completely generic morons. Maybe I was wrong. (Or maybe I was mixing them up with M.D.C. or somebody.)

What you said about Immortal's lyrics is exactly what I like about Amon Amarth.That Viking stuff is the stuff for me.They really sound like they are gearing up for battle. Plus, the clashing sword sound effects are great.

since we're on the metal thread, _sunrise_ is pretty entertaining - alternates "folk" songs with loop-riffing heavy metal and some great shouting finnish vocals. sort of like their pharaoh overlord side project, but the metal songs are much more entertaining.

Wait, and you can tell that WITHOUT reading the lyric sheet??? Wow.

Heavy metal songs about the land of ice and snow from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow ARE always a great idea, however.

I like Circle's *Raunio album, but I thought they were more Kraut rock than metal. (I think I might have an earlier album I like by them on my shelf at home, too. I just realized the other day that both CDs might be by the same band. But maybe they're actually not.)

Haha, for me it's the complete opposite - somehow the process of completely stripping down the music to its bare essence, to one single idea seems to produce the best metal I think (from Venom to Bathory to Entombed to Darkthrone to Ildjarn to Winter to Thergothon). The opposite approach, clothing an existing form with all kinds of fancy elements (synths, folk interludes, melodic solos, goofy vocals, industrial sounds, female vocals) seems to result in disaster a lot more often and seems to stifle *real* development.

Chuck: "All bands should be able to do everything to create something new."

Siegbran: "All bands, by each doing their individual thing, collectively create something new."

In which case you're still finding something new.

Look at the people who like that kind of music. Not quite the most intelligent people there are, or....?

Maybe "real" isn't the best word to use (like "true" it's been overused for the wrong reasons).

Let me explain it this way: development seems to go in series of similar processes: a band distills one element of existing metal, and finds out how to change songwriting, vocal style, production, imagery to maximize its effect. Then other bands take that idea and fuck around a bit with it, clothe it with all kinds of existing elements, but while they are experimenting they do not fundamentally change anything. Until another band distills some other element out of it and the process is repeated.

But why is that more valid, or more interesting, or more trustworthy, or less "disastrous," or more legitmately developmental, than taking elements from OUTSIDE of metal? I don't get it. Why would you want to limit what bands are allowed to do? And looking at all these teeny little incremental changes under a microscope sounds like a chore to me, no fun at all. Though then again, I think that about lots of techno genres that all sound the same to me, too. Maybe I'm just lazy.

3rd & The Mortal - Tears Laid In Earth
Accept - Restless And Wild
Amorphis - Tales From The 1000 Lakes
Amorphis - The Karelian Isthmus
Anathema - Serenades
Anathema - The Silent Enigma
Anthrax - Spreading The Disease
Arckanum - Kostogher
Asphyx - The Rack
At The Gates - With Fear I Kiss The Burning Darkness
Bathory - The Return
Bathory - Blood Fire Death
Beherit - Drawing Down The Moon
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
Black Sabbath - Master Of Reality
Black Sabbath - Paranoid
Blasphemy - Fallen Angel Of Doom
Bolt Thrower - For Victory
Burzum - Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
Candlemass - Epicus Doomicus Metallicus
Carcass - Necrotism (Descanting The Insalubrious)
Celtic Frost - Into The Pandemonium
Celtic Frost - Morbid Tales/Emperor's Return
Cryptopsy - None So Vile
Cynic - Focus
Dark Angel - Darkness Descends
Dark Tranquillity - The Gallery
Darkthrone - A Blaze In The Northern Sky
Darkthrone - Transilvanian Hunger
Death - Human
Death - Scream Bloody Gore
Destruction - Infernal Overkill
Disembowelment - Transcendence Into The Peripheral
Dismember - Like An Ever Flowing Stream
Dissection - The Somberlain
Emperor - In The Nightside Eclipse
Enslaved - Vikingligr Veldi
Entombed - Left Hand Path
Esoteric - The Pernicious Enigma
Exciter - Violence & Force
Exodus - Bonded By Blood
Gorguts - Obscura
Graveland - 1000 Swords
Graveland - The Celtic Winter
Grim Reaper - See You In Hell
Hellhammer - Apocalyptic Raids
Helloween - Keeper Of The Seven Keys I
Immortal - Pure Holocaust
Impaled Nazarene - Ugra-Karma
Incantation - Onward To Golgotha
Iron Maiden - Killers
Iron Maiden - Piece Of Mind
Jag Panzer - Ample Destruction
Judas Priest - Sin After Sin
Judas Priest - Stained Class
Katatonia - Dance Of December Souls
Kreator - Pleasure To Kill
Master's Hammer - Ritual
Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas
Megadeth - Rust In Peace
Merciful Fate - Don't Break The Oath
Metallica - Kill 'Em All
Metallica - Master Of Puppets
Morbid Angel - Blessed Are The Sick
Motorhead - No Sleep 'Till Hammersmith
My Dying Bride - Turn Loose The Swans
Napalm Death - Scum
Nocturnus - The Key
Paradise Lost - Gothic
Paradise Lost - Lost Paradise
Pestilence - Consuming Impulse
Possessed - Seven Churches
Raven - All For One
Sacrifice - Torment In Fire
Samael - Ceremony Of Opposites
Samael - Worship Him
Sarcofago - INRI
Sepultura - Beneath The Remains
Skepticism - Stormcrowfleet
Slayer - Reign In Blood
Slayer - Show No Mercy
Sodom - Obsessed By Cruelty
Sort Vokter - Folkloric Necro Metal
Suffocation - Effigy Of The Forgotten
Summoning - Minas Morgul
Terrorizer - World Downfall
Testament - The Legacy
Thergothon - Stream From The Heavens
Unholy - From The Shadows
Unleashed - Where No Life Dwells
Vader - The Ultimate Incantation
Venom - Black Metal
Venom - Welcome To Hell
Voivod - Rrroooaaarrr
Winter - Into Darkness

it's a bit of a "die-hard metalhead" list though, some of these albums are completely unlistenable for the casual listener (the Beherit album for example is only interesting for complete masochists). And it has no recent releases...

I'm listening to Judgement right now and its pretty. Like smashing pumpkins pretty. Like awwww yeaaaah baby pretty. Like 93 to infinity propulsive.

Somehow that way of thinking/working seems to have propelled metal since the last big exchange with punk in the early 80s; Death/doom/black metal have been developed that way. The fact that the well of new directions/ideas seems to have run dry in the last five, six years might indicate you're right in the long run though. And perhaps metal has become a more or less fundamentally "dead", fully developed genre (like jazz) where nothing will change anymore. Metal has always been in danger of stagnation, just because of this typical traditionalism. Maybe its history has finally become too big a stone around the neck.

I don't get it. Why would you want to limit what bands are allowed to do?

I don't WANT it, I just observe that's how it's done. But I guess that abstract notion of "metalness" is very important to me too, and that I'm weary of the "openmindedness" rhetorics that keep popping up along the years, because I've been disappointed by it too many times. I don't necessarily dislike 'alien' elements, but I feel that in order for it to me "metal" to me, it has to be in the spirit of metal, not necessarily in the metal aesthetic paradigm. For example, the way that folk melodies have been incorporated in metal is very interesting by a number of bands I think (Graveland, Nokturnal Mortem)...does that make sense?

And looking at all these teeny little incremental changes under a microscope sounds like a chore to me, no fun at all.

"No Fun, No Mosh, No Core, No Trends"

Also, *Sons of Northern Darkness* is a GREAT album title, so I really WANTED to like it. I just wish the album sounded darker and more northern to me, that's all.

Then proceed to Hades "Again Shall Be".

But that just reminds of being sneered at by the Metallica fans for liking "glam metal".

And guess who's wearing makeup now...

How do you feel about the side-projects? October Tide.Bloodbath.Diabolical Masquerade. I like 'em all. Especially the October Tide stuff. I've been meaning to hear some of the stuff Dan Swano does. He does lots. Any recommendations?

Haven't heard Bloodbath yet, but I have the first Diabolical Masquerade and I've heard the other albums and October Tide - still the great guitar lines, but somehow I feel he saves up the best ones for Katatonia, and that the songwriting in Katatonia is just much better. Must be Jonas Renske's contribution that adds the spark I guess.

I haven't been that interested in the Dan Swano stuff, Edge of Sanity bored me to death with each of their albums and Pan-Thy-Monium was a bit too left field for the sake of it, so I haven't really paid that much attention anymore. Somehow Katatonia is the only band out of the whole Swedish Dan Swano circle (Opeth, EoS, Katatonia, Pan-Thy-Monium, etc) that I really follow, probably because they're the most minimalist and focused of them all.

I'm with John on the new Haunted. No new ground, but excellent retro-thrash. As good as the top rank of bands playing that sort of music right now (Shadows Fall, Hypnosia, Carnal Forge, Witchery), if not better.

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Alan

You're cutting right through my soul here, man...

I seem to remember Meggido being there once

It wasn't, but "The Devil And The Whore" is fucking great. If you can't bang your head to that, you're probably clinically dead.

but that's just, like, my opinion and stuff.

>>It wasn't, but "The Devil And The Whore" is fucking great. If you can't bang your head to that, you're probably clinically dead.<<

To be honest with you, I've only liked one album on the Barbarian Wrath imprint ever. And as it turns out, its the one band on that label that I've never seen anyone reference (Amon). On that note, is it just me, or is the Czech Republic a black hole for anything "extreme"? Root and Lykathea Aflame are both extremely solid bands, but have never commanded anything above a *very* cult audience (I'd put the number of Lykathea Aflame albums sold in the US in the very low triple digits...a shame because its damn good).

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Alan

Haha, I've still to find one album on BW or even Nazgul's Eyrie I don't like! But it's a typical label, very dedicated to primitively oldschool yet original sounding bands. There's not a single fast/nordic BM band on the roster, I noticed.

On that note, is it just me, or is the Czech Republic a black hole for anything "extreme"?

Czechia is/was so full of great bands - Master's Hammer, Maniac Butcher, Torr, Root, Moriorr, Debustrol, VAR, Ferat, Kabat, etc. But it seems that most of the bands never bothered to arrange distribution outside of the region. Especially in the late 80s there was all this talk about a thriving metal scene in Czechoslovakia and Hungary, but no-one knew exactly what was happening behind the iron curtain...

Well, they just signed a band from Norway called Necrofaust. I have a feeling I left their demo in CT when I moved a few months ago, but I don't entirely remember either. The lack of nordic bands on BW was intentional, but why they've decided to change now isn't clear to me.

>>Czechia is/was so full of great bands - Master's Hammer, Maniac Butcher, Torr, Root, Moriorr, Debustrol, VAR, Ferat, Kabat, etc. But it seems that most of the bands never bothered to arrange distribution outside of the region. Especially in the late 80s there was all this talk about a thriving metal scene in Czechoslovakia and Hungary, but no-one knew exactly what was happening behind the iron curtain... <<

Shame neither nation had a Vader to sort of lead them out of the basements and into worldwide touring. The same thing seems to be happening in Russia, where the only "name" band I can immediately think of is Mental Home.

And where is the metal coming out of Southeastern Europe? Everyone else at least has a name band or two, where as the Yugoslav republics, Romania, Bulgaria, etc have been pretty anemic. Odd, considering that the conditions there would seem to predicate large numbers of metal and punk acts to emerge.

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Alan

not to be confused with necrofeast OR (the absolutely awesome/ful) necrofrost...

*ducks*

Heh...I can't go in this direction because two of the bands I chose are NSBMers in their own right (hilarious true story; the guy from Judas Iscariot had to give money to some Jewish organization due to a lawsuit). My reason for knocking Graveland is because I think they're rather linear sounding; their albums have a "sameness" to me. Like Overkill in that sense, but not as interesting as Overkill is from album to album.

But I agree...I'd rather see Clandestine Blaze's politics (though they're not exactly sparklingly great either) above those of Graveland.

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Alan

Well, apart from the rather well-known Greek bands there is Negura Bunget (excellent!) from Romania, and Zaratustra and Ork from Bulgaria, but that's all I can think of.

My reason for knocking Graveland is because I think they're rather linear sounding; their albums have a "sameness" to me.

It's become formulaic indeed, but still I like the whole concept of bombastic woarrrr epics a lot, it's not really connected to the typical violent guitar-driven bulletbelts/spikes black metal thing anymore - unlike, say, Clandestine Blaze you can identify a Graveland song immediately. Originality goes a long way, and although Graveland have become a bit irrelevant in recent years, "Memory And Destiny" is still worth picking up for the gorgeous Arthur Rackham artwork alone, especially the A5 digibook.

A couple reasons.

1) No "extreme" imagery that is often present in death or black metal.

2) Never reported in metal press; same reason metal kids don't typically listen Masonna, Melt Banana, Acid Mothers Temple, or other things that are loud as hell that they might otherwise enjoy.

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Alan

Well, I don't know if the Fucking Champs would ever completely interest your hardcore "I live for Devourment and Disavowed" death metal fan. Converge is really a metal band (and they'll admit it, too) but has ties to the hardcore scene, so automatically, that loses them points with the metal folk. Same thing with Cave In, though I'm not sure they'd admit to being metal. Perhaps.

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Alan

i think there are a lot of fans who both follow metal and more extreme noise-rock stuff like AoR.... it's a pretty blanket statement to say that metalheads don't like arab on radar. maybe it's just a question of not being exposed to them.

No and no!

there might be a point there - when i was a high school metalhead, a copy of _thrash metal_ magazine came floating across my transom which had a _really_ fucking nice article about bands in other styles that might appeal. i recall stuff like red resistor, of cabbages and kings, swans, borbetomagus, and a boatload of other things being mentioned (for some reason i can only remember the NYC scuzz rock at the moment). it inspired my 7 year search for a borbetomagus record (no good record stores around me) and i think i bought _filth_ the next day...

My theory: It seems as if certain bands are often described as making "cheesy" music. (take that term however you like) But much of the time, an act like Daft Punk or Avalanches get an irony pass. It's as if they're in on the joke, but they still have a genuine appreciacion for the aesthetics which they use. Metal bands never get this free pass, and I get the feeling a lot of critics think metal bands just don't no any better (a'la Geir's comment that the typical metal fan isn't intelligent), which isn't really the case at all. I mean, what metal fan doesn't think Manowar are funny? What metal fan doesn't laugh at some of the silly covers? But you never hear anyone equating irony with metal bands (outside of the Fucking Champs or someone working outside of the genre, or maybe glam...)

Arg, gotta leave work. Hope someone understands what I'm trying to say...

Not necessarily so. Start with Blue Oyster Cult, then work your way forward, you know?

But yeah, I see what you're saying. My arguement was pretty hastily thrown together in an attempt to get it out there before I had to leave. In fact, just as I was driving home I thought of the (amazing) Fozzy video I'd seen the other night and how that might constitute a metal band coming from an area critics would deem ironic. Whatever it is, the guy in the chain mail rules.

And just as an aside, has anyone ever heard Berserker? Haven't heard a note myself (missed em when they opened at a show I went to) but I've heard they're part death metal, part gabba. Is this accurate? If so, I'm thinking it could work but it most likely doesn't.

Well, they're at least trying to be funny! (And I often think they are.)

Haha....Chris Jericho? He's a pro wrestler in the WWE. Multiple time "champ". Its total cheese but that's what it means to be. Immortal and Blind Guardian and basically every grindcore band ever are the same way. None of the guys in Exhumed or Ghoul or Impaled take themselves seriously.

>>And just as an aside, has anyone ever heard Berserker? Haven't heard a note myself (missed em when they opened at a show I went to) but I've heard they're part death metal, part gabba. Is this accurate? If so, I'm thinking it could work but it most likely doesn't.<<

Kinda. Originally, The Bezerker (the vocalist) did gabba at discos and wore a odd mask to freak everyone out. Then he was involved in a car crash in the mid 90s that fucked him up pretty bad. So he then hired a backing band under his stage name, took vocal duties, and that the way its been ever since. I enjoy their stuff; I just hate the masks. If you've heard Agoraphobic Nosebleed or can imagine, say, Pg.99 or Carcass or something with a drum machine, that's The Bezerker.

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Alan

And I really hated the Agoraphobic Nosebleed songs I've heard, so... eh. Damn, the gabba/metal combo sounded interesting.

Yea, I hear you on the first part. What are you gonna do? Maybe its a bit of a nasty comparison, but its like trying to explain to a KKK member that not every jew is out to rape the world of money and that black people are quite nice and intelligent. People have their own set of opinions, and often times, they'd rather keep them for whatever reason than be totally objective.

As for Ghoul, yea, he's real. And that band is the best act ripping off Carcass today. =)

>>And I really hated the Agoraphobic Nosebleed songs I've heard, so... eh. Damn, the gabba/metal combo sounded interesting. <<

Well, its the first thing that came to mind (ummm...grindcore with drum machines...uhh...ummm....Agoraphobic?), so my suggestion would be to hit up Kazaa or Soulseek or WinMX or whatever and search for The Berzerker's material (old pure gabba/speedcore stuff and later material) and make up your mind on that. Even if you have a dialup, it wouldn't take more than 15 minutes or so to download at max, as most songs aren't terribly long.

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Alan

The same reason why anyone into A wouldn't like, know, or care for something made by B trying to be A.

The same reason why anyone into A wouldn't like, know, or care for something made by B with inspiration from A.

I'm going to go download Berzerker stuff now. Thanks for the tip

and on that last topic - alan licht once said something really cool about how Borbetomagus *was* heavy metal to him - it had the same effect on him as Zepplin does. I feel the same way. Visceral is visceral, power is power, killer is killer. Ya know?

Bunny Magick still rules!!

By the way, he seems to think very highly of his brother - he's always sending me your articles!

Revive...I've got that new Katatonia now, and it's good. Not that far removed from the previous two. At first I was massively annoyed by the completely unnecessary overdriven shouting bit in the opening track, but from then on it's fortunately not nu-metal at all. They still manage to sound as bleak and hopeless in that Buckley/Oldham/Drake/PJ Harvey way as ever. Liljekvist especially has improved, his drumming is more varied than ever, jumping from jazz to rock to metal style - works really well I feel. And in Criminals they have another Tonight's Music, a perfect catchy rock single (I think it's a safe bet to say that it will indeed be the single). I'm still puzzled why they haven't been picked up by a bigger label, this kind of music should be able to appeal to the Coldplay/Interpol demographic.

Some things I don't like...it's a bit meandering in places (I feel the flow would be better if they had cut 10 minutes from it), and overall there are less of those 'magical' Nyström droning guitar lines, more wah-pedalled rock riffs and clean picking. And Renkse has an annoying accent on his "r"s...it never really bothered me until now, I don't know why.

British squatter metal: C/D? S/D?

>>Well, the ROOT of metal/harcore crossover was *Raw Power* by the Stooges, probably. Or Blue Cheer. Or "My Generation," or whatever.

But in the early '80s, yeah, any Black Flag album after the first one (i.e.: *My War* and later) comes to mind, and after that distinctions fall like dominoes. Also: Flipper and the Angry Samoans, who were both stealing Sabbath riffs before Greg Ginn decided to, I think. <<

And so on. I think Rudimentary Peni and those guys came up, too...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/030680817X/qid=1051229069/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_7/103-1427874-0331060?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I think they're funny! Though not as funny as the review of the book in *Circus magazine that called it "hilarious and pretentious."

First edition of the book: 1 Led Zep Zoso, 2 GNR Appetite, 3 Alice Cooper Greatest Hits, 4 Aerosmith Toys in the Attic, 5 Kix debut, 6 New York Dolls debut, 7 Lynyrd Skynyrd Second Helping, 8 Neil Young and Crazy Horse Rust Never Sleeps, 9 Teena Marie Emerald City, 10 Jimmy Castor Bunch Phase Two.

'90s-Albums-Only Ammendment to Second Edition: 1 Rancid Let's Go, 2 Caifanes El Silencio, 3 Babe Ruth - Grand Slam: The Best Of, 4 Prodigy Fat of the Land, 5 Nazareth Greatest Hits, 6 Sublime self-titled, 7 Hole Live Through This, 8 Suzi Quartro - The Wild One: Classic Quatro, 9 Electric Eels - God Says Fuck You, 10 GNR Spaghetti Incident.

(There's lots of things above, and in the rest of the book, I'd change drastically now -- especially after my recent half-decade-long European gothic dark-metal-influenced-by-Kate-Bush-and-Enigma phase.)

>>Okay, Chuck, here's my question about those customer reviews -- is that really your nephew?<<

Apparently -- Haven't seen that review (or any of the others) for a while. Or my nephew for that matter -- He's in Korea. I *think* he told me once that it was really him, but maybe I dreamt that part.

Teena Marie's Emerald City = tune-free overproduced mid-80's dance-pop with the slimmest of relationships to metal even by Chuck's loose standards. Teena herself has done better.

Everything else in the top 10 is good-to-insanely-great though. and you really oughta look for that Jimmy Castor record (he e-mailed me once 'cause I said something nice about him on here!)

All sounds great to me! I really must investigate more of it by asking Siegbran and John Darnielle to just give me all their records (they might complain, though).

WHAT is metal about what's good about that album?

This question answers itself more readily than you might guess.

I actually just finally got some Teena Marie, but it was the Motown era stuff. Still want to hear Emerald City one of these days.

Oh, and death to Rancid. I might let "I Wanna Riot" in if I'm feeling generous but otherwise.

And Gooch - Metallicack? Shame on you.

Well let's hear it then!

It doesnt say what he actually said.

thank god he didn't sing any EZO songs in an accent, the world might've ended.

When did I say that what's GOOD about the album is metal? What's METAL about the album is metal, and what's good about it is good!

*Emerald City*, which has loud guitars, is Teena Marie's best album. (*It Must Be Magic,* which doesn't, is her second best album.)

And Kix do too have songs. Six albums worth of them, at least. Which is more than, well, just about anybody in this thread's genre, right?

* Rock critics like to dignify their profession by clustering around "culturally significant" bands like Radiohead. Showing up at a dinner party in an Immortal longsleeve only confirms suspicions that you're just a socially-retarded overgrown teenager, and sets back the nominal prestige factor of being a rock critic.

* The metal world is isolated economically, so there's little incentive to put the metal labels in review rotation. Century Media may have been a bigger operation than Matador in the '90s, but they didn't advertise in Spin or the New Yorker.

* Until the late 1990s, most rock critics would physically wince or at least blink quickly at the mention of a death metal or black metal band. I think they were afraid of being punched in the stomach by the CD itself. ( This is similar to the plenty stoopit David Lee Roth argument: "rock crits like elvis costello cuz he looks like them." )

* Redundancy. Isn't the appeal / repel of metal kind of self-evident? Metal tends to wear its virtues on its sleeve -- and its fans are usually the best unselfconscious interpreters.

Or you can just blame the headbangers, whatever works for you.

IAN

Been a few years for me, too, Anthony. But I'm pretty sure my decision had to do with what struck me as post-Hendrix (via Chili Peppers, who were never as good as Sublime) and post-hardcore-punk guitar parts. And I suppose there's a good chance I would've included *Wolves* if *Let's Go* hadn't struck me as so much *more* metal. (Don't I have something in the intro about limiting myself to the "most metal" album by '90s acts not generally associated with metal? Why, yes I do Anthony, it's on page 231. That should answer your question fully.) At any rate, both Rancid albums are better than the Sublime album, no question. I forget which Rancid one I like more.

Only if you never heard Lawnmower Death, though.

Their music is really well-played, for grindcore. Their real innovation, to my ear, is their drum programming - it's astonishing, maybe even more complex than Squarepusher or Aphex Twin. They've got multiple vocalists, each of whom actually sounds different. They change up their sound from track to track, particularly on Frozen Corpse..., using phoned-in vocals that include the guest vocalist talking into the band's answering machine ("Hey Jay, this is Bob...ready, here we go...AAAAARRGGHHHHBLARGHBLARGHBRAAAARRRRGHHH...okay, talk to you later") or blasting you with electronics and/or samples. None of these are new tricks, but the rate at which they throw things at you is really impressive. You really can picture them huddled over their machines in a basement someplace, trying to come up with a way to one-up themselves every time. Anaal Nathrakh's The Codex Necro has that same quality, but from a black metal angle.

OTM

And I don't get the "anti-aetheticism" claim at all. Metal is totally art music (or most of it is, anyway). It's got an aesthetics that most rock critics might not "get," but that hardly means it doesn't concern itself with aesthetics. (It also doesn't mean that rock critics or anybody else has to accept metal aesthetics on face value, and it doesn't prevent critics etc. from subjecting metal to OTHER aesthetics, but most critics never figure that part out, I suppose.)

By JON CARAMANICA
Published: September 18, 2005

YOU might not have known it from looking at the audience, but when the Chicago instrumental band Pelican performed at the Knitting Factory in late July, it was playing metal.

Instead of long hair and all-black outfits, the crowd was displaying the trappings of brainy, slightly nerdy indie rock. Young men wore artistically cropped hair and tight-legged jeans, and there was even a smattering of young women in librarian glasses and worn-out Chuck Taylor sneakers.

This is not your older brother's metal crowd. "I've been wearing my Def Leppard T-shirt on tour recently," said Laurent Lebec, a guitarist in Pelican and a fan of that archteypal 1980's metal band. "People come up to me and ask, 'Is that a joke?' I have to tell them that I don't wear T-shirts as a joke."

The particularly dark and aggressive strain of rock called heavy metal has been around for more than three decades. In that time, it has spawned a range of offshoots, but none have been as unlikely as the recent wave of bands using metal as a jumping-off point for a range of experimental styles, dabbling in free jazz, minimalist post-rock, noise and even modern classical music.

This is art-metal, a curious scene populated by a new generation of metal acolytes onstage and younger fans often unfamiliar with metal's headbanger heritage.

"Metal in general has long been unjustly maligned as solely the province of knuckle-dragging meatheads," said Aaron Turner, a founder of the influential Hydra Head Records, which has released three CD's by Pelican, including, recently, "The Fire in Our Throats Will Beckon the Thaw." "That said, there's never been a group of musicians like there is now, who are helping to advance the form."

Heavy metal reached a commercial apex with the hair-metal bands of the 80's, but those spandex-and-lipstick aficionados were often maligned within the greater heavy metal scene. Metal, many argued, should be punishing and morbid, not garish. So while the flashy acts caught on in the pop arena, the metal mainstream focused on technique and form, honing a high degree of technical complexity. By the outset of the 90's, eccentrics like the Melvins and the Flying Luttenbachers were acting on the belief that heavy music was compatible with an avant-garde sensibility. Their peers didn't all agree.

"For years, I felt we didn't have any common ground with anyone - I felt like I was on the inside of it, but not always a welcome visitor," said Justin Broadrick, a member of the pioneering experimental metal bands Napalm Death and Godflesh, who this year released an album with his new band, Jesu, on Hydra Head.

A decade later, those early acts have given rise to others. "Those bands laid the groundwork for us," said Mr. Turner, who also plays in the highly digressive post-metal band Isis. "We're part of a recognizable lineage."

It has produced a scene as noteworthy for its traditional aggression, power and growling guitars as for its appetite for experimentation.

Orthrelm, described by its founder, Mick Barr, as making classically influenced jazz-metal fusion, has just released "OV" (Ipecac), a one-song, 45-minute trancelike tour through seismic noise, North African music and guitar riffs that suggest a needle skipping on an early speed-metal record. Four years ago, the band released the fascinating "Asristir Veildrioxe" (Troubleman Unlimited), which was hypnotic in almost the opposite fashion: 99 tracks lasting a collective 12 minutes. These weren't songs, but rather brainy guitar-and-drum outbursts, each one incrementally different from the others. Mr. Barr called it "the alphabet record, and on our later records, we would use those letters to make longer songs."

Just as influenced by metal, but in wholly different fashion, is Sunn 0))), which borrowed its odd-looking name from the logo of a well-regarded amplifier company. "We take the atmosphere of metal - the barbarism, the unrelentingness - and we apply it to getting the room actually vibrating," said Stephen O'Malley, who also plays with the scabrous and pensive band Khanate. Accordingly, the band's songs, as heard on the slow burn of the forthcoming "Black One" and the just reissued "GrimmRobe Demos," are vast seas of gurgle and drone.

On records, the band haunts. In concert, its members, who perform in druid-style robes and typically use industrial smoke machines, actually alter the feel of the room.

"In that way, the entire space becomes the performance," Mr. O'Malley said.

Greg Anderson, a member of Sunn 0))) and, with Mr. O'Malley, a founder of Southern Lord Records, which releases Sunn 0)))'s albums and has become one of the scene's key labels, argued: "A punk rock ethic has been injected into the metal scene. There's far more room for what we do now, which is good, because what we do wouldn't fly on more traditional metal labels."

Perhaps more than any genre, metal has historically been exceedingly tribal. "When I was growing up, you wore bands' names on the back of your jacket," Mr. Broadrick said. "You would die for them." Throughout the 90's, fierce battle lines were drawn between the metal styles - doom metal, black metal, death metal - that were generally indistinguishable to an uninformed outsider.

But thanks to generational shifts, the current wave of metal experimenters has been less burdened by scene loyalties. "These are people who probably grew up being into metal, but also were into or played in post-rock bands in the 90's, and have finally reconciled the fact that you could fit those two things together," said Andee Connors, co-owner of Aquarius Records in San Francisco, a retail store that specializes in metal.

For a time, as if to drive home its conscientious-objector status, Hydra Head even used the slogan "Thinking Man's Metal."

"It was self-deprecating, but it also exemplified what we wanted to do," Mr. Turner said.

Albert Mudrian, editor of the year-old metal magazine Decibel and author of "Choosing Death: The Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore," asks: "Is art conscious or unconscious? Up until now, there was art in metal, but there wasn't for the most part a self-awareness about it. Now, these new artists have that, and they want to be painted as such."

Case in point: When Atsuo, the single-named singer-drummer for the sludgy Japanese post-metal band Boris, was asked recently in the online magazine radcompany.net about the influence of Satan on the band's work, he gave a predictably high-minded answer, engaging the question's absurdity - heavy metal's Satanic influenceis one of the genre's great clichés - and then trumping it. "It's simple to talk about Satan as a symbol, but it's important to consider the deeper meaning of the symbol," he said in one of his rare interviews to be translated into English. "To me, the Devil is not a symbol, but a moment that touches on morals. The moment when a person changes - that is the Devil."

"People often mistake us for an ordinary metal band," he warned. "We're not."

The flourishing of art-metal comes as its big brother is beginning to creep its way back into the mainstream. In the last year, acts like Lamb of God and Killswitch Engage have sold several hundred thousand records, and bands that combine the emotional catharsis of emo with the aggression of metal - My Chemical Romance and Coheed and Cambria, for instance, along with several bands on the roster of the Chicago label Victory Records - have begun to appear with regularity on the Billboard charts. Additionally, MTV, which cancelled its metal showcase "Headbangers Ball" in 1994, revived it in 2003 on its sister channel MTV2.

But there are signs that even traditional metal bands are becoming more eccentric. Recent metal albums have paid tribute to authors from Melville (Mastodon's "Leviathan") to Tolkien (Blind Guardian's "Nightfall in Middle-Earth") to Blake (Ulver's "Themes From William Blake's The Marriage of Heaven And Hell"). For good measure, the metal legends Sepultura are preparing an album based on Dante's "Divine Comedy."

Some fear, though, that the self-conscious positioning of art-metal bands has done a disservice to worthy acts who stick closer to tradition, and who are often ignored, if not outright scorned, by outsiders. John Darnielle, the singer-songwriter who performs as the Mountain Goats and writes frequently about metal, said, "People want to listen to harder stuff, but they don't want to venture far beyond their own backyard."

The result is audiences for whom a Def Leppard T-shirt could only be a sign of irony, though there may be hope for further indoctrination. "We never imagined we'd have kids into us who'd never listened to metal at all," Mr. Lebec of Pelican said. "But maybe we can be their gateway."

Anyway, Scott, Chuck, Banana, George etc. to thread with other recommendations.

I hate people. People always bug me.

don't forget lords of chaos. which is good, even if you hate whatshisface.

Yeah, what's the story with that? I vaguely recall claims of racism or something?

-- nathalie, a bum like you (stevienixe...), September 25th, 2005.

i've read it and its pretty good!

Choosing Death was pretty entertaining, given its somewhat pointless subject.

The best book about metal ever is....well, never mind. Somebody mentioned it already,

I kinda liked Tom G Warrior's Celtic Frost biography too.

Note responses to that Jon Caramanica article in the last weeks's worth of responses here:

Rolling 2005 Metal Thread

Popoff's 500 Greatest Metal Albums book is my absolute fave. Extremely well-researched, and the writing is great fun.

As for that Times piece, for starters, here's what I wrote about it on that other thread:

Yeah, I actually like Jon Caramanica, both as a writer and as a friend, and I kind of had *fun* reading that Times spiel, but lots of it was way, way off. The part that got my goat the most was his assumption that marginal hipster footnotes (not that he called them that) the Melvins and Flying Luttenbachers (both of whom kind of, er, SUCKED) somehow invented some huge idea that hadn't previously existed of inserting avant stuff into metal. I guess he tried to balance things out by quoting John Darnielle at the end (not that it was very clear to me what point Darnielle was making), but still...
-- xhuxk (xedd...), September 21st, 2005.
Also, I thought it kind of odd that he pretty much entirely concentrated on indie-scene-to-metal-sound crossovers, when for the last several years there's been at least as much interesting, artsy stuff happening within metal proper, on metal labels -- the new Opeth album, for instance, didn't even get mentioned, which actually surprised me; it seemed like the exact sort of thing that one would *peg* a feature like that on. I mean, Opeth get a lot more metal fans than Orthrealm or Pelican do! And they're no less artsy. Strange...
-- xhuxk (xedd...), September 21st, 2005.

I like Chuck's book but, of course I'd like it because I'm in it. Even a picture!

"Billion Dollar Babies," a first bio of Alice Cooper by a newsman decades ago, was a great book on the art and business of metal, specifically the Alice Cooper band right after the making of "Muscle of Love." Yes, that's right, not BDB.

The "red book" Rolling Stone record guide is an unintentionally hysterically funny and great barometer of early metal records as must haves. All the ones the Dave Marshes of the world gave shit putdowns and jokes on in their reviews, are the good records.

"The International Encyclopedia of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal" by Jasper & Oliver, out of print, is an amusing read if you're familiar with the subject. Again, parts of it are fall off the chair laughing, sometimes unintentionally so. It's good for discographies, dates and personnel for band, particularly on the UK side, up until 1983. I've never seen anything to come close to it in accidental sort of goodness.

Popoff's Seventies book was a must have for me. The CD that came with it is even better.

I read Tom Warrior's autobiography of Celtic Frost in store one night. Was decent as a snapshot of that time in his relationship to the metal world.

Parts of Carducci's "Rock and the Pop Narcotic" should be read by people interested in hard rock and metal.

Then I thought - well people don't really have that problem with Punk music and also, Metal nights are just as sociable as any other gig night.

Perhaps it's that people assume if you like Metal then you HAVE to grow your hair long and wear black t-shirts and white towelling socks and behave like some drunked up loon. I know a lot of people who worship Metal and behave in this way but I too am a Metal fan and I don't even own a piece of black clothing. However, I did feel like an outcast when I went to see My Dying Bride wearing a light brown long-sleeved t-shirt and "trendy" jeans.

Maybe it's because the Metal image doesn't change. If you wear Metal clothes you're only going to attract Metal chicks and that might put a lot of people off. It's stupid and aesthetic but it's true.

Another complaint I often hear is "Metal? All that RAAARGH RAAARGH RAARGH! It's all the same" - which is also stupid because you could say the same about lots of different other styles from Techno to Pop.

Yet another objection: "It's all socially inept teenagers singing about how much they hate their parents/wanna slay dragons/kill Jesus. It's childish". Sure, a lot of Nu-Metal is directly aimed at the teenage psyche, but so is Punk, Grunge, Emo etc. Black Metal is often too subtle for a lot of people. I know when I first heard it it left me very cold. I wasn't sure what to think - just people screaming over walls of guitar and hi speed kicks. Once you get to know the genre a bit better (all it takes is a copy of Terroriser to prime you) it's then that you start discovering the different bands and their imagery. A lot of bandsdepend on their notoriety or a particular concept to attract their fans and if one is not in tune or used to that kind of imagery it can be very hard to appreciate.

it's not pointless to the people who play and enjoy it...

Is it accurate to say metal fans are particularly obsessed with albums and their qualities?

Regarding the idea that the satanic side of metal is cliched, overplayed, etc etc, I think that notion is highly questionable. Archetypes embodying good and evil are probably not polite enough to come and go with a critical movement's fashion dictates.

George OTM on this; I refer back to it all the time. Ditto the Rolling Stone red guide from 1979, which for clearly unintentional reasons is one of my favorite rock album guides ever, period.

>Parts of Carducci's "Rock and the Pop Narcotic" should be read by people interested in hard rock and metal. <

Namely the second part, the histiogrophy or whatever he calls it. The first half of the book, which basically argues one should never discuss the sociology of music while at the same time doing exactly that, should be read with as many grains of salt as you have available.

their latest album is blowing me trumpet

ah, uninentional irony! fantastic thread.

i think the answer to thomas flynn's initial question lies somewhere between chuck's points about high, middle and low brows and siegbran's points about traditionalism. i submit that some metalheads' exaltation of technical complexity over more subjective gauges of musical worth is probably another factor. what is music if *not* subjective?

short answer: yngwie f. malmsteen!

Ah fek, I never got around to buying a good Metal book. Maybe I should, maybe that way I could get into musickness again. I've always been tempted to buy that Black Metal book. I can't remember the title but it's apparently very good. Kerr, help me out here! :-) Maybe I should just start with the books George mentions? That Black Metal book is less of an intro (to Metal in general), right?

To answer the question: Much like Pop for most people it's tied to a certain period in their lives and tied to an exploration of sexuality. Certainly with Metal, I think it still has that image that it's 15 year old boys sitting at home wanking, not being able to approach girls. When you still listen to Metal at a later age, then people tend to assume you're still stuck in that period. Which is bollox of course, but there you go...

Funnily enough: There's this thing where people who don't listen to Rock 'n' Pop, but to Classical music, will, many times, say they really like Metal. Wht is that? The fact it's so "orchestrated?" Complex? Or what?

'lords of chaos: the bloody rise of the satanic metal underground'. although certainly a fun read about the second wave of black metal, it hardly serves as an overall introduction to metal in general.

When you still listen to Metal at a later age, then people tend to assume you're still stuck in that period. Which is bollox of course, but there you go...

i dunno. certain metal fans (qv the shoegazer metal thread and my comments there) don't do themselves many favours in this regard.

the genre of metal is a wonderful, incredible, multi-faceted thing. sadly, there is a small core of metal fans who go out of their way to put people off.

That's the 15 year old kids Nath was talking about...

:)

srsly: i guess they have the minds of 15-year-olds, yes.

Go to Sunn o))) gigs. Then watch as the crowd of doom lovin' bearded 30 year olds complain about hipsters and nigels in the crowd.

that's exactly what i'm talking about, yup. it seems to infest all levels of metal.

i guess i've got a chip on my shoulder here, but ... i dunno, i was just surprised/alarmed, when i started listening to metal a few years back, how a small but vocal core of fans seemed to think i had no goddamn right to do so, and should leave "their" music alone.

that said, it hasn't overly bothered me so far, so i'm not sure why i'm letting it now :)

A guy with a fucking pork pie hat on was at the sunn o))) gig. I think most people would be moaning/laughing at that!

HAHAHAH i'm laughing at that and i didn't even see it.

please, for extra rofl value, tell me that a particularly resonant drone made it fly off. or shoot up in the air.

Sadly It didn't.

Nath> What metal do you like?

"sadly, there is a small core of metal fans who go out of their way to put people off."

who cares though? and how do they do this? i mean, when do you run across these people? do they jump out of the bushes and make fun of your metal purchases?

They use camo gear, Scott:

http://www.theglobalguy.com/wp-photos/USA/bushes.jpg

Not kvlt enough

Blood Duster did a song addressing this. It was called "It's Just Not Metal."

It's just not cricket.

death to false cricket

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/21D78D92-E088-473C-92D4-EC03940C9B32/0/20070417UKwikCricket2.JPG

Cricket metal exists somewhere I am sure.

Why is The Mettle Of 'Genre' so maligned?

Cricket metal exists somewhere I am sure.

I'm pretty sure "In The Sticks" by Warrant qualifies, sound-effect-wise anyway.

Did any metal bands ever cover "When You Wish Upon a Star"?

Not that I've heard it.

Nath> What metal do you like?

Only Painkiller and Slayer. :-( I suxor, I know.

You have some checking out to do!!

also, apparently:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=13819828

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=46001632

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=126088552

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=10839355

Did any metal bands ever cover "When You Wish Upon a Star"?

Didn't Gene Simmons do that on his solo album from the simultaneous release days?

I think so.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/12/why_is_metal_still_ignored_by.html

I think Geir may have made the 1st response in the comments...

"Given that other perceived niche genres such as dance or hip-hop are well represented, if tokenistically, you have to wonder why there is still such a stigma and snobbery around the canonisation of metal."

The answer is simple. Metal is unique among musical genres in having no redeeming features whatsoever. Taken from a strictly musicological point of view, it exhibits a total lack of creativity, inspiration and intelligence. There's no such thing as a good Metal album.

^ Geirbot is spreading

geirbot has always been around

yeah that comment section is lolz

the one about ac/dc is funny too.

There is very little talent in metal music. AC DC is one the most popular bands in the world and their vocalist screams instead of sings. Their guitarist, Angus Young, saves the band from being really bad.

Hard rock is preferable to metal.

isn't this just a self-fulfilling prophecy that feeds into everyone's schtick? hip hop, dance et al have had spasms of willful insularity but nothing so sustained and as pointed as the siege mentality that seems endemic to metal enthusiasm(to this casual, decidedly non-metallic observer?). there was a thread a couple months back at RYM (that fount of "telling" statistical democracy according to mr. man) asking why radio doesn't play metal and the resounding sentiment was "it's a good thing cos the lames don't deserve it" more or less. The fleeting blush of bemusement of the kind a hip hop audience gets from seeing eg. a kanye west DOMINATE THE WORLD OF HIP-HOP at every turn is all indie media can offer at the moment and is that really worth fighting for? the grass is not greener here.

all partisans feel their parties are unfairly represented everywhere n'est-pas

yeah pretty much, but it's a fact folks 'from' certain other genres have gotten pretty fat and happy and better at not sweating the cultural position so much or so starkly or something. happy new year!

metal runs parallel to the rest of music
metal works differently
metal is a contest
metal has a strong idea of what it is and what it is not
metal often features loud guitars and sixteenth-notes on the kicks
metal usually has one dynamic
metal can be catchy
metal is not squeamish but people are
metal is not afraid of blood
metal is afraid of love

John Darnielle, help me love metal. I listened to Pig Destroyer: Phantom Limb and that Bloody Panda record. (And Coco Rosie and Babyshambles) and I just don't get it.

Metal fans (many in this thread) like to present the genre as the most extreme form of music, as if everyone who doesn't listen to it is an uptight schoolmarm who only listens to the Beegees or something. Bands like Throbbing Gristle are far more abrasive without any of the stupidity. I'd rather worship a guitarist for innovative sound rather than how many notes he can cram into a solo.

"Kevin John Bozelka", how do you think listening something known as "Pandas" or "Coco Rosie" is to help you out becoming metall!

Kevin John Bozelka, I think you are the new geir.

Kevin John Bozelka, it has taken me 4 years to realize your name is not "Kevin John Bazooka."

"Kevin John Bozelka":

I have tried listening to "the panda bears"! Now tell me Step 2 to becoming ultra necro!

"Kevin John Bozelka", how do you think listening something known as "Pandas" or "Coco Rosie" is to help you out becoming metall!

Homegirl, Bloody Panda is sooooo the name of a metal album that JD digs. Coco Rosie is not metal but just mans that I'm trying to dig what JD digs. And no need for quotes. That's my real name, kemosabe.

I will now listen (again) to Bloody Panda. The album is called Pheromone. I mean, what? The extremity of it all? I just wish there were amazing rhythms and heart-breaking melodies. Or moments. I really do dig that Burial album. So not scary. More warm and pretty than anything. But I'm not quite getting Bloody Panda. Is it okay to think it's kinda campy? As with The Birthday Party, I never know if that's okay.

Kevin John Bozelka, I think you are the new geir.

Oh stop. I'm sooooooo not the new Geir. I'm TRYING to dig metal whereas Geir wouldn't stoop so low to tell LL Cool J what tme it was. I think it's horrifying that I don't dig metal beyond the requisite brainy Motorhead shit a la my beloved "Snaggletooth" or Orgasmatron.

And Gott Punch, I wish you'd find out how much my Neu! cover and sicker (in the center of the actual disc - forget what that's called) and actual Lucifer's Friend album is worth.

That sucked. I mean the music is Lucifer's Friend's first album but EVERYTHING ELSE says it's Neu!'s first album. IS it worth a million dollars????????

Kevin John Bozelka, it has taken me 4 years to realize your name is not "Kevin John Bazooka."

Four years???!?!? That's impossible!!!!!!!!

Here's the thing:

Bloody Panda provided a cushion. Then the next song started, Blotto: "(We Are) The Nowtones." I love that song. But it made me mad. I wanted the cushion of Bloody Panda! Seriously.

That doesn't mean I like it per se. But what - it was a kind of ambience. A constant.

I top tenned The Angelic Process, if that means anything.

http://htomc.dns2go.com/anim/anim/violin.gif

Oh gawd, stop! You're so mean. What can I do to make you less mean? Seriously.

KJB

Meet the new Wrinklepaws, same as the old Wrinklepaws.

I top tenned The Angelic Process, if that means anything.

Hurrah!!!

I think Geir may have made the 1st response in the comments...

I didn't. And I wouldn't have put it that way either. Unlike other genres I hate, there is a lot of impressive musicianship in a lot of metal. It's just that they put me off by going for the ugly rather than the beautiful.

xp Kevin, one listens to metal the same way one listens to any other music, which for starters might mean you can't base your opinion on just two albums. But that's just obvious, right? I don't have much use for Pig Destroyer either, and I heard scores of metal albums I liked last year. I also don't know why you're wondering if it's "okay" to think some it is campy (by which I guess you mean that it's meant to be campy?). Some if it probably is (Lordi and Dethklok come to mind, not that they'd use that word, or I would probably), but that doesn't mean it has to be heard that way. Either way, why would you care whether listening to music a certain way is "okay"? Just listen for stuff you like, for God's sake. (And yeah, if you listen enough, you'll probably find plenty of metal with "amazing rhythms and heart-breaking melodies." There's tons of it out there--though no, probably not Pig Destroyer in my experience, even though lots of smart folks seem to love them. I've never heard Bloody Panda myself.)

Btw. Jeffwisdom does a better answer a bit down the thread:
I think the reason that Metal is shunned by many critics is because it is so deliberately unlistenable it is seen as beeing solely for the purpose of teenage rebellion.

Unlike him, I think there is something in that though. Not like all metal acts neccessarily think so, but most of those who like metal do it only for the sake of teenage rebellion, or at least did when they started getting into metal.

Of course, this doesn't quite fit with the fact that there are lots of metal fans among typical roleplayer/computer nerd types that are hardly the most rebellious types of teenagers, so there are obvious examples of less rebellious metal fans too.

Metal fans (many in this thread) like to present the genre as the most extreme form of music, as if everyone who doesn't listen to it is an uptight schoolmarm who only listens to the Beegees or something. Bands like Throbbing Gristle are far more abrasive without any of the stupidity. I'd rather worship a guitarist for innovative sound rather than how many notes he can cram into a solo.

This is absolutely the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

For one, you're describing one type of metal fan, the type that listens predominately to metal and nothing else, and not the metal fans like me (and likely many others in this thread) who love many different genres. Most of us who do love all genres recognize that the definition of extreme is not directly correlated to the volume of one's guitar. I love Skinny Puppy fer crissakes.

Secondly, you seem to be basing your ideas of metal on stereotypical 80s groups based on your last comment. There are plenty of metal bands out there that don't even play solos--Pig Destroyer and Crowbar are two examples.

Lastly, you'll have to quantify how metal is any more "stupid" than any other genre. Do they have more scenesters than punk, industrial, or straight up rock 'n roll?

Yea, they have their elitists, but what genre doesn't? Even jazz has that shit.

WORST POST OF 2008

Most people that are into doom metal or stoner rock for instance seem to be over 25 (or even 35).
Probably the same could be said for all those who post on the rolling metal threads on ilm.

Why do you wanna like what I like Kevin John? That seems like a dead end to me. When you write this:

I just wish there were amazing rhythms and heart-breaking melodies.

I think, you know, I don't listen to the metal I like for these qualities most of the time. I like Bloody Panda because they sound like some post-apocalyptic Omega Man/Logan's Run house band to me and they remind me a little of Ryoji Ikeda's Op. if it was metal. And I enjoy that. But you're probably not going to like them if getting your heart broken or feeling empathy with the signer's position is what you're looking for.

xpost oh yeah there's nothing stupid about Throbbing Gristle AT ALL, nothin' at all

Unlike him, I think there is something in that though. Not like all metal acts neccessarily think so, but most of those who like metal do it only for the sake of teenage rebellion, or at least did when they started getting into metal.

Of course, this doesn't quite fit with the fact that there are lots of metal fans among typical roleplayer/computer nerd types that are hardly the most rebellious types of teenagers, so there are obvious examples of less rebellious metal fans too.

Except that at very metal concert I go to, the average age is someone in their 30s.

Can you accept the fact that there is quality in metal that we see that you simply don't? Teenage rebellion might be why someone first explores metal, but if it were that simply explained, the average teen would move on to something else when he got bored.

I've been listening to it for about 12 years and I'm saddened that people still seem to think it's all groups like Judas Priest (who I love, don't get me wrong, but that's the stereotype everyone's going off of) and that groups like Opeth don't exist.

I just wish there were amazing rhythms

Meshuggah, Athiest.....

and heart-breaking melodies.

Turn Loose the Swan-era My Dying Bride, Pain of Salvation.....

To address the original 4-year old post, I don't think it's true that metal is much more maligned than any other genre. I have seen some reviews where the reviewer pans the album simply because he doesn't understand it, but AllMusicGuide has given glowing reviews to a lot of my favorite extreme metal albums.

And I personally don't care if a Rolling Stone type magazine doesn't get it either as I don't need the validation of mainstream press to enjoy something.

More comments on the guardian blog now by asshats
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/12/why_is_metal_still_ignored_by.html

Julian Cope on metal in The Guardian

The title of alone already sucks.

For one, metal's getting more mainstream attention than it did probably 10 years ago. Radio is allowing much more extreme music to be played and groups like Killswitch Engage (who I do actually like) that are more 'metal-lite' are taking off.

I just don't get why it matters. In any genre, the groups that don't write radio friendly songs, both in terms of sound and length, won't be accepted by the mainstream. How is it any different for a group like NoMeansNo, who face the same problem and aren't metal.

my comment referred to the 1st article

hey Bo Jackson are you down with Illogicist? that shit was flooring me the other day

Not familiar with them. What style are they? I've been dying to find a new metal album to get into.

tech-death with great bass/percussion stuff, really awesome - there's some mp3s on the media page here: http://www.illogicist.com/

Thanks J0hn, I just downloaded the two tracks from the upcoming album.

I definitely noticed the bass and the drumming on both tracks.

Have to say I like "Rooms of Emptiness" the better of the two as I feel it was a better developed track--nice melodic development, a punishing percussive opening, which leads right to a Sabbathy-riff less than 2 minutes in. There were some moments I thought of Symbolic-era Death (good thing).

Thanks for the recommendation, I enjoyed the mp3s.

Will any metal get in the P&J or Jackin' Pop this year?

I definitely voted for metal discs in both polls, as well as in the Wire's year-end poll.

To make an impact though wouldn't there need to be some sort of consensus on the albums?
I bet Electric Wizard get ignored. Maybe Om, High On Fire, Torche and Baroness might sneak in.

I'd say High On Fire have the best shot of placing on the overall Idolator or Pazz&Jop lists. Or maybe Jesu? That album seemed to get a lot of attention, desipite its boringness quotient. (Distribution of Electric Wizard and Torche promos could not have been so great, in my solipsistic opinion, seeing how I was never sent copies of either, and I get a zillion metal promos. If so, that'd definitely cut into both of their votes.) (At least I don't think I ever got Torche -- isn't that one just an EP?)

(By the way, does anybody have any idea when the P&J and Idolator results are actually going up? I'm starting to get impatient, weirdly enough.)

I quit listening to metal in the 80s when hair metal took over. I switched to grunge/garage and bands like Mudhoney, The Monomen, Jon Spencer etc.. From there I was all about the Swedish scene in the late 90s. When Bruce rejoined Maiden I saw them tour just before Dance of Death came out. They were with Dio and Motorhead. After that I talked to my younger coworkers ( one of whom was the drummer for Pelican) who loaded me down with titles to check out. Ever since 3/4 of what I buy is metal. There are so many styles and genres that you never get bored. I'm definitely back on the trolley.

To make an impact though wouldn't there need to be some sort of consensus on the albums?

Not really. To make an impact in those polls, what would really matter is if the albums crossed over to non-metal voters, like Mastadon apparently did last year. This year, it seemed High on Fire and Jesu came closest to pulling that off, though maybe there's another obvious album I haven't thought of.

Baroness?

The Electric Wizard album was my fave of 2007. I think it may be their best yet, at least as good as Dopethrone anyway. You should check it out, it has more of a retro 70s vibe than their previous albums but the songs are really really strong and the band is tight. New drummer suits them better I think.

I always like Electic Wizard! I have just been lazy and cheap about shelling out cash for a copy of that record. It's definitely the one '07 metal album that I didn't hear that I really think I would have liked. (Well, that and the reformed Sir Lord Baltimore one. And Rose Tattoo. And Portal. Times New Viking and Pyschedelic Horseshit don't count as metal, I assume. Hey, you can't hear everything.)

Baroness album is good; not sure if anybody who doesn't listen to tons of metal noticed, though. But I may be wrong.

I think it got good reviews from Decibel and Pitchfork.

Maybe the Boris and Michio Kurihara album will sneak in.

Don't bet the farm on it.

And Decibel is a metal magazine.

Yeah but metalheads think its hipster central for some reason. I've never read it as I can't find it even in Glasgow. I'd buy it if I could.

So...best metal concerts ever? I don't want to start another thread for this.

I will admit that I missed the heyday of a lot of my favorite metal acts (I still lament never being able to see Mercyful Fate--they last went on tour when I was a freshman in college with no car!)

Mine still has to be Nile/Impaled/Incantation. Just because it was one of the few times I really liked every single act on the bill. Had the time of my life.

Most disappointing was Cryptopsy, who played an abbreviated set way too late in the evening (1 am).

Yeah but metalheads think its hipster central for some reason.

I think it's the breadth of coverage - they include a lot of stuff that many metal dudes enjoy but which isn't really metal (Melt Banana for example, of whom I too am a fan). HxCx metal dudes are so paranoid about liking what the "hipsters"* like that they'll throw the tag out preemptively rather than get convicted by association.

*this word is completely useless and meaninless </quixote>

That's the kind of stuff I want to read about. Wish I could get Decibel here.

For "heartbreaking melody" I am saying Sigh is the best metal, Kevin.

I liked the 2nd last Sigh album a lot.

All of this stuff gets ignored by Kerrang though, they didn't even cover Isis/Boris/Sunn o))). They would far rather vote Biffy Clyro as album of the year. By covering shite like that it's no wonder ppl not into metal think the music is shite.

Because stuff as Boris/Sunn0!@#$@#$/what have you is making people zzzzzzz! Kerrang! has brains! I read only Terrorizer.

Also, they only think it's shite if they're British(and their spelling of swear words somehow managed not change 500 years ago.) (Plus I have no idea what Biffy Clyro sounds like.)

They sound like shite

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=biffy+clyro&search=Search

People wanting to be reading and looking at thing as Boris or Sunn+_}{}_ do not need being crying into a Kerrang! Go log to Pitchfork media probably! That is everywhere.

i dont like metal too much but i kinda feel like an asshole for saying so cause when someone says (people my age or younger at least) they dont really like rap im all how can that be yr an asshole

but anyway the typical things: unfunky aggression extreme aestheticness werid alienated masculine energy etc

eh i like sabbath (aka eh i like dre - asssshole)

yeah so i answered the question w.o reading the thread and you guys are prob talking abt wiffleball by now

Metal is bereft of any meaningful musical quality. Its repetitiveness and lack of imagination is why it receives so little serious attention in the music press.

When I first went up to university I was surprised to find two close neighbours in college profess a liking for the stuff. Subsequently, I, along with many others, had to put up with interminable playing of Napalm Death, Nuclear Assault, Slayer et al. Total crap.

Another reason why it rarely attracts acclaim is the fact that the vast majority of its proponents are people you'd struggle to take seriously on any matter. Few women seem to like metal. Indeed, few women appear to like men who like metal. All the metalheadz I've known, apart from being able to master the three chords necessary to produce any metal "tune", were identifiable by: i)being a physics or chemistry student, ii) never having a girlfriend, ever. And iii)Self medicating with alcohol to mitigate poor social skills

If you want a musical sound with clout and more than one dimension you need to look elsewhere. Towards heavy or progressive rock would be a start.

i dont like metal too much but i kinda feel like an asshole for saying so cause when someone says (people my age or younger at least) they dont really like rap im all how can that be yr an asshole

A: if somebody doesn't like rap or metal, it doesn't necessarily mean he's an asshole - I mean why should anybody apologize or feel bad about not liking a style of music? it's like demanding that people like the same kinda food you like to be considered non-assholes, I sorta assumed people grow outta that style of thinking pretty early

I sorta assumed people grow outta that style of thinking pretty early

I was then proven wrong over & over & over again obv

I think latebloomer is quoting from the guardian comments

It's a real eye opener isn't it?? When you read the comments on this page you realize that Guardian readers (and often the writers) are just like everybody else. Bigoted, narrow minded and full of self loathing. There is great music in every genre, but like the racist, the truly second class mind cannot get past the stereotype

I've been listening to it for about 12 years and I'm saddened that people still seem to think it's all groups like Judas Priest (who I love, don't get me wrong, but that's the stereotype everyone's going off of) and that groups like Opeth don't exist.

Personally I prefer Judas Priest, who are less extreme, with some catchy songs, and without those annoying grinding vocals. I mean, screaming is annoying enough, but I even prefer screaming to grinding. In the case of Judas Priest, the case that their frontman is gay also helps them escape some of the naffer macho elements about the usual heavy metal image.

As for more to metal, sure, there is a lot more. As I said upthread, some of it crowded with musicianship. So I have no problem respecting that, only I prefer that kind of complex musicianship without grinding and extreme guitars. So then I go for Genesis or Yes (or even Flower Kings or Spock's Beard - two bands that I know some metalheads like to define as metal), to get away from grinding/screaming and the other annoyint things about metal.

"Grinding" vocals? What do you mention?

Rick Wakeman is so metal, and you know it.

Kevin, one listens to metal the same way one listens to any other music, which for starters might mean you can't base your opinion on just two albums. But that's just obvious, right?

The latter part, yes (although I'm not basing my opinion on just two albums). But I don't think one listens to metal the same way one listens to any other music. And that holds for all genres. I don't listen to house the same way I do AOR. One of the reasons I top tenned Angelic Process is because a change in my listening habits allowed me to be more receptive to their field-wide furnace blasts.

I also don't know why you're wondering if it's "okay" to think some it is campy

My ever-so-mild paranoia re: this matter stems from a review of a Yes show at which I had a blast. But it was a campy blast and despite what I thought was a positive review, tons of fans wrote the paper asking for my head. Apparently, there is to be no laughing at a Yes concert! So if I chuckle at Scott Walker, The Birthday Party, or Bloody Panda (and not in a derisive way - more a guffaw at the extremity of it all), I'm merely wondering if hardcore fans of said acts are hearing them the same way. (One Birthday Party lover has assured me that most of their hardcore fans are well aware of the fine line between profundity and ridiculousness in their music.)

"That's the kind of stuff I want to read about. Wish I could get Decibel here."

well, you can still read a bunch of it:

http://decibelmagazine.com/

It is different to make fun than simply to laugh. They are confused on your reaction, probably.

Well I can assure you, I'm a metalhead and I fully recognize a lot of its camp value.

It's the uber-serious metalheads that I can't stand. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't take metal (or music) seriously but the "tr00 metal" heads who say things like "Death to False Metal" and actually see no irony in Manowar scare me.

so pissed off that I can't find a gif of the grind band t-shirt that says KILL YOURSELF SO I CAN GRIND

also don't forget the deciblog, which is good reading & updated regularly: http://www.thedeciblog.com/

Why do you wanna like what I like Kevin John? That seems like a dead end to me.

It's not so much that as it is that I obsess on the top ten of any writer/critic I adore. And I want to hear everything on it. Ideally, I'd like to like it all too. But usually, I get diminishing returns, esp. in a genre I have no ear for. It happened with Stairway to Hell. I stopped seeking out all those records when I realized that for every awesome one like Hard Attack, there were three, four, five crap ones like Nantucket Sleighride or Bang or whatever.

But hey - you've already given me a way into Bloody Panda so I'll keep listening.

A: if somebody doesn't like rap or metal, it doesn't necessarily mean he's an asshole - I mean why should anybody apologize or feel bad about not liking a style of music? it's like demanding that people like the same kinda food you like to be considered non-assholes, I sorta assumed people grow outta that style of thinking pretty early

i meant asshole in the sense of lack of appreciation, lazy psychological impoverishment, self-directed jerkiness etc

like tell me you havent seen someones music collection thats all one genre and thought what are you doing to yourself you poor bastard asshole

food is an alright proxy here as its also pretty wtf when someone doesnt like a whole cuisine

Maybe to stop listening to things you don't like, is helping?

I like that Deciblog said Christ Illusion sucked.

Slayer took me for a ride by actually putting 2 good songs on it before pulling away the Matrix and revealing that no, they're still nu-metal!

i read an interview w/royal trux once where the interviewer was at their house looking at their cds and being all lol you like soundgarden and neil hagerty just said theres at least some worthwhile aspect about any music

Just listen for stuff you like, for God's sake.

See, this I just don't get. Liking something isn't always this instantaneous natural reaction. The crustiest example for many people (myself included) is of course Exile on Main Street. I was indifferent to Kala throughout most of 2007. Etc. What you choose to work on and how long you do so obviously varies. But is this so bizarre an idea in the first place?

Pretty weird, forceing yourself to listen to a "top ten records."

Not top ten records. Records on top ten lists of A LOT of different critics. It may be weird but it's certainly not uncommon, esp. around these parts.

In the case of Judas Priest, the case that their frontman is gay also helps them escape some of the naffer macho elements about the usual heavy metal image.

Or rather, the S/M inflection of his homosexuality reinforces those macho elements.

that guy is tremendous

Kevin, this is even worse I am saying.

Or maybe the time has arrived to concern with new lists!

Anybody who doesn't think Metal can be knockdown drag out funny, read these lyrics from Malignancy's emotional epic, "Bag".

"Plagued with diarrheal secretions
Post-anal drip
Unable to stop the flow of fecal matter
Colostomy irrigation necessary
Colon brought to the surface of the skin
For intestinal drainage
Obsolete anus sewn closed
Remnants of my bowels flood into a bag

I have a new ass

Porthole constantly leaking
Cavity always stinking
I just long to be normal
Secrete from an open bunghole
Overflowing liquified feces
I can't keep it a secret, the evidence stains my clothes
Colostomy has a hole

I soiled myself"

"I have a new ass!!!"

LOL

I really am glad they never shot a music video for that song.

Good cd too...Intrauterine Cannibalism, kinda reminds me of Symphonies-era Carcass at times.

Or maybe the time has arrived to concern with new lists!

Ok would it be awful if I asked for YOUR top ten list?

Bo Jackson, thanx for those lyrics! And others, thanx for the suggestions. Onward.

Here is a listing for you Kevin:

1. Probably figure out what you are liking!
2. Probably listen to that instead of posting to "john": "I wish to like your likes!"

But this is joking you, only. >_<

What sort of list are you seeking out, typically?

As I said above, if there's a writer I like, I listen to what s/he likes. Sometimes I agree; sometimes I don't. Not so controversial.

yeah jhoshea I hear you - I just, y'know, if somebody/most people have zero metal in their collection I'm like "of course they don't, shit is generally pretty abrasive, you sorta have to have a screw loose to seek out abrasian in yr arts in the first place"

If you are liking the writing of someone, maybe be reading the books in their list instead of this concern with music.

It took me a while to get into death metal because I hated death growls when I was 17. now I love them.

It isn't that Judas Priest reinforce those macho elements... Rob Halford INTRODUCED the macho S&M and leather and chains and motorcycles imagery to heavy metal. So that argument is bunk.

Also, what's with the relatively narrow range of metal that's come up in this discussion? I realize that (gross generalization ahead) metal fans on ILM tend to lean towards the more artsy/abrasive/doom stuff, but there is an entire spectrum of music outside of that. You have very pretty stuff like Lacuna Coil and The Gathering, bands with clean singers and classical inflections like Hammerfall or Iced Earth, extremely melodic death metal bands like Arch enemy or in Flames, and a thousand others. It isn't all Pig Destroyer and Bloody Panda, who aren't even really that metal and the traditional sense. I mean, while I like both of those bands, you wouldn't exactly find their band photos next to a dictionary entry on "heavy metal." What I love about metal is that there are so many different styles and emotions and sounds within the genre.

I'm glad no ones mentioned hipster metal yet.

i like sabbath and hair-metal and the melvins except theyre not metal

what exactly is classical about Iced Earth, save some of the classical motifs they sometimes used as intros on their songs and maybe elements of "Dante's Inferno"? To these ears they're just thrashy power metal (and their newest album is awful, though I was a big fan in the Barlow days)

I don't really think the groups like Arch Enemy and In Flames really represent that wide a range other than the fact that they're, well, melodic, and Pig Destroyer isn't.

"Hipsters," they surely are listening to Boris and these things.

Dude, that's nitpicking. Maybe if I was writing an essay about this, I would've really thought it out, but as it was I was just trying to think up some quick examples, so maybe they weren't the ideal ones. And for what it's worth, that melody does make a big difference. Are you trying to argue to me that there ISN'T a wide range of stuff in metal?

Hipster metal.

just wanted to drop in and say i fuckin love decibel

Thanks to you.

No I'm not saying that there's not a wide range in metal...I was saying your examples didn't really stretch very far.

Of course there's a lot of range in metal. Among other things, I listen to Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Candlemass, Malignancy, older Dying Fetus, Pain of Salvation, Atheist, (all eras of) Death, Cynic, Symphony X, My Dying Bride, Cathedral, older Ulver, Mayhem (all eras), Immolation, Darkthrone, Blind Guardian, Hypocrisy, Morbid Angel, Thought Industry, thrash-era Sepultura, Annihilator, Nuclear Assault, Black Sabbath, Strapping Young Lad, Cryptopsy, Gorguts, Opeth (pre-Blackwater Park), November's Doom, Helloween, Angra's first two albums, Deicide, Type O Negative, Katatonia, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Cradle of Filth (mostly just Cruelty and the Beast), Bal-Sagoth, Impaled Nazarene, Savatage (all eras), Emperor, Cryptic Slaughter, Immortal, Rage (not against the Machine), Satyricon, Witchery, Sigh, Megadeth, Metallica, Crowbar, Iced Earth, Slayer, Exodus, Kreator, Skyclad, Possessed, Rhapsody (first two albums), W.A.S.P., Amon Amarth, older God Dethroned, Pantera, Exhorder, Fates Warning, Carcass, Fear Factory, Testament, Queensryche, Nile, Meshuggah, Mastodon, Stormtroopers of Death, Soilwork, Cannibal Corpse, Anathema, Sodom, King Diamond, Nevermore, Sanctuary, Coroner, Anthrax, Ocean Machine, Brutal Truth, Krisiun, Diabolical Masquerade.......

you know, just the stuff the Big 215 put out

A lot of range for bad, it seems.

I am kidding with you. >_<
I like this: "Mayhem" and "Hypocrisy"

to be honest I'm not a huge hypocrisy fan, though I do like The Final Chapter and the s/t a bit.

Mayhem I really liked De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, Wolf's Lair Abyss, and Grand Declaration of War

".. Rob Halford INTRODUCED the macho S&M and leather and chains and motorcycles imagery to heavy metal. So that argument is bunk."

what about leather hats, motorcycles, heavy metal thunder, and male bonding group shots?

http://www.ket.org/pressroom/2006/10/TeleFundMusic06-2Steppenwolf_1225.jpg

Yes these, though I am loving every Mayhem album probably. Mayhem with me is representing existing possibility to "freedom" in metal.

Ew, this is something new. >_<

It is "Kings of Leon!"

"Hipsters," they surely are listening to Boris and these things.

haha so true

There is nothing smellier than a Slayer concert.

seriously...being packed in between 35 year old sweaty men and chicks that look like men at the House of Blues is insulting to the nostrils but enchanting to the ears.

Bo Jackson, to be in amazement at the smells endured at so-called "open air fest."

(you are in amazement)

I love how at metal concerts, guys sit there and jump all over each other, punching, scraping, kicking, grabbing and clawing at each other, but anybody even taps them on the shoulder afterwards they go 'OMG GET OFF ME YOU HOMO!"

Always in my town: "If no moshing, you surely are FAG!" And so they all mash, without a shirt. Really smart >_<

ok i am loving this pal utlendi guy

Mosh For Gays

Bring back Janne

Yes, it is all the same. (Sarcastic).

FUK BOB ROCK AND SELLOUTICAAA!!!!111!!! LOAD SURE IS A LOAD...OF SHIT!!111!!

?

"Geir Hongo" = Norsk?

1. DC View profile
I (fortunately) have not heard all of the songs on the Load of Crap CDs. Thank God. I am sitting here listening to WXRK in New York and they are playing the latest single from Re-Load (don't know what the title is, sounds like country rosk, slide guitar and all...). What the FUCK is this???? "Here I am......" ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME????? Is this REALLY the same group that created Master of Puppets, Fade to Black, Sanitarium, Seek & Destroy????? Did the REAL Metallica die in a bus crash in 1986?? I can't believe what I am hearing. I thought it was a joke. Jesus H. Christ is this sad!!! I guess this Metallica fan has had enough.... -DC
More options Nov 17 1998, 3:00 am

Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.heavy, alt.rock-n-roll.metal
From: DC <dhba...@NOSPAMworld✧✧✧.a✧✧.n✧✧>
Date: 1998/11/17
Subject: Metallica - I'm gonna puke....
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
I (fortunately) have not heard all of the songs on the Load of Crap CDs.
Thank God. I am sitting here listening to WXRK in New York and they are
playing the latest single from Re-Load (don't know what the title is,
sounds like country rosk, slide guitar and all...). What the FUCK is
this???? "Here I am......" ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME????? Is this REALLY
the same group that created Master of Puppets, Fade to Black,
Sanitarium, Seek & Destroy????? Did the REAL Metallica die in a bus
crash in 1986?? I can't believe what I am hearing. I thought it was a
joke. Jesus H. Christ is this sad!!! I guess this Metallica fan has had
enough....
-DC

It seems yes, he has had enough!

I don't listen to house the same way I do AOR.

Yeah, we've had this discussion before, I guess. I don't really understand that. Seems to me what makes an AOR song good might potentially be the same thing that makes a house song good, and vice versa; I don't require that records within certain genres meet elements on a particular checklist--that just seems to me like limiting what pleasure you can get out of music -- Any reason to like any record is okay, pretty much. And my point is that you don't know what you like about something until you listen to it and, uh, find out what you like about it, which may well not be something specific to its genre. Which is not to suggest, obviously, that seeking the input and opinions of others might not help -- they might hear something you've hadn't noticed, and it might suggest something else to like (and right, that something might sometimes apply to lots of records within a genre, not just to one individual record, which I guess is your point.) But this is all old news, especially from my end.

A change in my listening habits allowed me to be more receptive to their field-wide furnace blasts... But it was a campy blast.

Are there campy furnace blasts? (I actually have no idea who or what Angelic Process is, by the way.)

I'm merely wondering if hardcore fans of said acts are hearing them the same way

Wild guess (probably applicable across the board): Some do, some don't? (And even if none do, so what? How you hear it is how you hear it. Fuck hardcore fans.) (Though fuck them respectfully, of course.)

for every awesome one like Hard Attack

Dust or MX-80 Sound? (And Mountain and Bang are way better than you acknowledge, but to each one's own.)

Liking something isn't always this instantaneous natural reaction... What you choose to work on and how long you do so obviously varies

See above -- yes, talking to other people can help sometimes. But you should still figure out what you like (which may or may not be what they like). (I also don't get why Exile on Main Street is an "of course"; do you mean compared to the more rocking earlier Stones records? Exile always hit me as a big blob of beauty, though; not something I really had to work toward (and hell, who was it that said feeling records were things you had to become worthy of is usually a waste of time? 99 times out of 100, if I don't like something, there is no way I'm going to "learn" to like it later on. Though of course there have always been exceptions.)

the S/M inflection of his homosexuality reinforces those macho elements

Dude, you've checked out Accept and Leather Nun, right?

Rob Halford INTRODUCED the macho S&M and leather and chains and motorcycles imagery to heavy metal.

Wait, doesn't Freddie Mercury count? (I feel there must be other '70s exceptions, too, but that's just the most obvious one that comes to mind. Then again, I never wanna give Judas Priest credit for inventing anything. Though yeah, they were pretty important.)

This is not "computing" on Freddie Mercury!

Yeah, I guess Freddie wasn't nearly as consistent and extreme about it as Halford later was. But he certainly had his leather moments (which may or may not have preceded Halford's, now that I think of it.)

But he is not much doing with metal, surely?

Then again, I never wanna give Judas Priest credit for inventing anything. Though yeah, they were pretty important.)

I think I included a single in the back. (If I had to do it over again, I'd include Sin After Sin.)

Freddie Mercury is much doing with metal! (But my name's not Shirley!)

Freddie Mercury had exactly one leather moment that I recall - the video for "Crazy Little Thing Called Love," which was Queen's pathetic attempt at rockabilly pastiche. (I hate Queen.)

I hate you

http://www.amazon.co.uk/freddie-mercury-1970%60s-leather-action/dp/B000N4L0FM

Making things personal!

http://www.nicholasjdanton.supanet.com/comparisons.htm

Whether you want to give them credit or not, it's pretty much true. Sure, there may have been some small exceptions, but Halford really brought the full on leather and studs look to the genre straight out of the London underground gay S. & M. scene. My point is that Geir can't really say that they shied away from the macho thing because their singer was gay when he was the one that more or less created that really macho metal aesthetic.

Not to mention that the public announcement that he was gay only happened in the mid to late 90s, after their heyday.

(Not that songs like "Eat Me Alive" weren't a giveaway....)

It wasn't actually a shock to anyone when he came out. Elton John and Freddie Mercury didn't come out til the mid 80s and it wasn't exactly a surprise when they did.

The 3 worst kept secrets in rock probably.

i love queen. and judas priest. and steppenwolf. i was always thinking that i would like exile on main street when i'm older. it still hasn't clicked for me either. same with ornette coleman too. i think i'll like him someday when i'm old.

And Bo Jackson, I wasn't so much trying to give a definitive display of variety as I was trying to bring up some sub genres that hadn't been touched on and were maybe a bit more accessible and in-line with some of the criteria that people on the thread previously mentioned that they were looking for in metal. It's also sort of interesting that "metal" has started to become more connected with bands like Pig Destroyer or Bloody Panda, who, as I said before, aren't really that straight up metal.

Right, but I'm just stating that Rob didn't "officially" come out until the mid to late 90s. And there were some metalheads that were really daft enough to not know (*thinking back to the Newsgroups in the days following the announcement*)

Jeff--fair enough

Chuck - I find your argument that you don't want to give Judas Priest credit for anything kind of funny. I mean, just because you don't like the band doesn't mean that they weren't massively influential (which, to be fair, you do say). I don't really like the Beatles, but I have to give them credit for being somewhat important in the development of rock.

Jeff, I was totally making fun of myself and how I'm always bending over backwards to be unfair to Judas Priest, no matter how influential they were! Get it now?

I didn't say they don't deserve credit; I said I don't give them credit.

Oh. Well, don't I feel stupid. Sorry. It's funny now that I get it! Humor doesn't always come across well over the Internet, as most of my posts will attest.

I wouldn't worry about it.

Of course there's a lot of range in metal. Among other things, I listen to Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Candlemass, Malignancy, older Dying Fetus, Pain of Salvation, Atheist, (all eras of) Death, Cynic, Symphony X, My Dying Bride, Cathedral, older Ulver, Mayhem (all eras), Immolation, Darkthrone, Blind Guardian, Hypocrisy, Morbid Angel, Thought Industry, thrash-era Sepultura, Annihilator, Nuclear Assault, Black Sabbath, Strapping Young Lad, Cryptopsy, Gorguts, Opeth (pre-Blackwater Park), November's Doom, Helloween, Angra's first two albums, Deicide, Type O Negative, Katatonia, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Cradle of Filth (mostly just Cruelty and the Beast), Bal-Sagoth, Impaled Nazarene, Savatage (all eras), Emperor, Cryptic Slaughter, Immortal, Rage (not against the Machine), Satyricon, Witchery, Sigh, Megadeth, Metallica, Crowbar, Iced Earth, Slayer, Exodus, Kreator, Skyclad, Possessed, Rhapsody (first two albums), W.A.S.P., Amon Amarth, older God Dethroned, Pantera, Exhorder, Fates Warning, Carcass, Fear Factory, Testament, Queensryche, Nile, Meshuggah, Mastodon, Stormtroopers of Death, Soilwork, Cannibal Corpse, Anathema, Sodom, King Diamond, Nevermore, Sanctuary, Coroner, Anthrax, Ocean Machine, Brutal Truth, Krisiun, Diabolical Masquerade.......

these all sound like they could be album or song titles from the same one band

Everything about metal is aimed at being abrasive, and all of those elements usually come off sounding laughably cheesy. At least Throbbing Gristle and their post-punk contemporaries had their roots in J.G. Ballard and avant-garde shit like that. Metal doesn't have a message or background--it's rooted in volume and terrible lyrics.

Everything about metal is aimed at being abrasive, and all of those elements usually come off sounding laughably cheesy. At least Throbbing Gristle and their post-punk contemporaries had their roots in J.G. Ballard and avant-garde shit like that. Metal doesn't have a message or background--it's rooted in volume and terrible lyrics.

What an idiotic and sweeping generalization to make.

I suggest you actually *read* some metal lyrics (especially those of Daniel Gildenlow of Pain of Salvation circa "Perfect Element" era) and listen with ears that aren't pumped with 5 tons of wax before making such a moronic statement.

DEATH TO REAL METAL

(fyi to all in the thread I'm in no way saying that metal lyrics are Kafka-esque, but I would rail against a silly generalization like that if it were any other genre too.)

my fave throbbing gristle lyrics, for the record, would be: THERE'S BLOOOOOOOOOOOOD BLOOD ON THE FLOOR THERE'S BLOOOOOOOOOD BLOOD ON THE FLOOR!

My favorite music is better than your favorite music.

slug bait is awesome too:

SLUG BAIT:
Slug bait
Can't wait
Slug slug bait
Can't can't wait

I crawl up the grass to your window
And then open up your room very slow.

Slug bait
Can't wait

I walk into your bedroom
Then I look at you with your seven months pregnant womb

Slug bait
Can't can't wait

I get your husband to your front bedroom
I cut his balls of with my knife KNIFE
I make him eat them right there
In front of his pregnant wife WIFE
He's into his balls off
I look at him very slow

Slug slug bait
Can't can't wait

As he bleeds to death on the floor
I want you to say don't do any more

Slug slug bait
Can't cannot cannot wait

I look at your big heavy stomach
It's already moving a little bit with your baby
I use the carving knife from your kitchen
I start to perform the operation
You say "No, no don't do that!"
I say, "I don't give a ... cat's whiskers."

Slug bait
Can't wait

I pull out your baby
I chew his hand off with my teeth
I lick him clean
It's obscene
As you bleed to death I kill it
I'm just a wicked boy

Slug slug bait bait
Can't can't wait wait
Slug slug bait
Can't Can't wait
Slug bait

united lyrics by throbbing gristle - -vs- united lyrics by judas priest

Also, Throbbing Gristle did a song with "Hamburger" in the title! How many metal bands can say that? (Not Judas Priest, ha! Do Focus count? I know Jimmy Buffett doesn't; don't make me laugh. And besides, he sang about cheeseburgers, that's different.)

Scott, I just asked you a question on the thread about the Flock, who I probably overrated. But I overrated Fat Mattress more, I think. They are starting to bore me, at least on the second side.

"Well just finally went for my Heavy Metal hamburger night with friends for the first time and must say I was impressed. They were pumping grinding metal music and I give them big props for stocking plenty of Melvins on hte playlist. The cool tattooed girl wait staff were very friendly and helpful in picking out beverages or burger choices. Now down to the attraction here which would be the burgers. The burgers are not your regular bar fare patties and all have unique names related to rock-n-roll or metal bands such as the Black Sabbath or the Slayer burger in which a key ingredient is Anger. I ordered the Slayer burger which was more than I bargained for my first time. This 1/2 pound burger came draped over fries and was smothered with jack cheese, Andoulli sausage, chili, grilled onions and jalapenos. The cool thing about this massive pile of metal madness was there was no bun! I could barely make it down to the fry level drenched underneath the meaty goodness. I will definitely be going back here for more metal burgers and possibly the half-price whiskey Saturdays."

I like Fat Matress okay. But ROAD wipes the floor with Fat Matress.

AllMusicGuide has given glowing reviews to a lot of my favorite extreme metal albums.

I haven't browsed around much for metal, but the Immolation section needs to be rewritten for sure. Giving every marginal rock/punk/metal subgenre they can think of its own section except death & black metal is also pretty stupid.

>same with ornette coleman too. i think i'll like him someday when i'm old.

Try listening to Ornette Coleman in the company of a little kid (under age 5). The melodies are highly enjoyable, and the rhythms encourage wild/spazzy/unselfconscious dancing. In my experience, kids like Thelonious Monk for some of the same reasons - it sounds like the kind of "jazz" that would underpin a Muppets sketch.

At least Throbbing Gristle and their post-punk contemporaries had their roots in J.G. Ballard and avant-garde shit like that.

"had their roots in" here means "made a real tedious point of claiming some affinity with Ballard et al in order to lay claim to some art-world credential"

not that I don't got love for TG, I do, but Mayhem's music is infinitely more intelligent and less hamfisted

ohHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snap.

When it's cold, and when it's dark
The freezing moon obsesses you!

Instead of posting examples of terrible lyrics by brilliant, innovative bands, how about someone posts some decent metal lyrics, ones that don't sound like a 9th grader's idea of "dark imagery." Honestly, I'm even willing to look past the lyrics, because the music itself is embarrassing enough. The very fact that bands like Dragonforce are allowed to have careers shows how insightful your average metal fan is.

"Bands like Throbbing Gristle are far more abrasive without any of the stupidity. I'd rather worship a guitarist for innovative sound rather than how many notes he can cram into a solo."

The problem with comments like this is that they reveal an inherent ignorance of an entire genre of music. The first thing that people who don't listen to metal want to say is that the solos are gratuitous, or the vocals are just screaming.

Yes, Throbbing Gristle are smart and abrasive, and don't have the embarrassing hardship of knowing how to play their instruments. But what about composition? What about melody? What about progression beyond a series of sonic experiments?

I love TG, but I will stack Morbid Angel's Domination up against any "Hamburger Lady" as being equally abrasive, disturbing, and artistic. It's just also got a whole lot more to offer as well.

***

BTW, I read this whole damn thread before responding. Makes me wish I was on here a few years ago to chime in with all the metal loving luminaries.

***

Please continue.

At least Throbbing Gristle and their post-punk contemporaries had their roots in J.G. Ballard and avant-garde shit like that.

It's just more in tune with the times to bring up J.G. Ballard these days, since post-punk (whatever that really refers to anymore) nostalgia is in. People are thinking, "Bands like Chicks on Speed are covering The Normal's "Warm Leatherette," so J.G. Ballard must be important, right?"

Do we really want to berate Metal for not being as in tune with what this decade considers high art, if Chicks on Speed qualifies for those standards?

I wasn't name-dropping, I was implying that bands like Throbbing Gristle are better than the average metal band because of their dedication to theory, that their music was actually connected to some system of thought. "Arty" or "pretentious" maybe, but at least there's a line of thought that runs parallel with the music. I've yet to hear a single metal band offer something substantial in the way of theory or any type of intelligent thought outside the usual shock-rock shit and over-the-top morbidity.

Does theory need to accompany your music as a matter of course?

As for metal books--I've been reading a lot of them lately (as research for my in-progress work on the history of Doom Metal).

Read so far:

Stairway to Hell
Choosing Death
Sound of the Beast
Fargo Rock City
Popoff's Sabbath book
How Black Was Your Sabbath?
33 1/3 GnR book on UYI
Tom Warrior/Celtic Frost autobio
Lords of Chaos
Hammer of the Gods
Rockdetector's book on Doom/Stoner/Goth (hey I'm in this one!)
others I'm thinking of right now...

currently reading Hellbent for Leather (yawn) and then about to start the one written by the lady with the PHD who loves Manowar. I am dying to pick up Popoff's new Judas Priest book too.

It's a pleasantly growing field.

I pitched really hard to 33 1/3 for a Sabbath book and got beaten out by Mr Darnielle. I look forward to reading his.

Ok, again, you are missing the point of a genre with certain traditions and unspoken stipulations.

If fast solos are bad, and high art theory is required, why even waste your time feeling like you're missing out on metal?

You are debasing the form based on generalized prejudices, yet holding it accountable to completely separate standards.

I would suggest that the reason you don't like metal is because you need to fucking relax, take a bong hit, and listen to 2112.

"Throbbing Gristle are better than the average metal band

This I totally agree with. The "average" band in any genre totally blows.

This statement is like saying that The Beatles are better than the average jazz combo. Fucking duh.

But let's also posit that Slayer is way better than the average industrial noise act. It's inarguably true.

I never said I was missing out, I enjoy not having to listen to metal..

Theory isn't always important, but the lack of it should usually be made up for with innovative or at least interesting music. Otherwise what's' the point?

aye carumba

You can't accuse me of generalizing and then turn around and do the same thing to another genre. I think Slayer is godawful, so of course it's not inarguable.

There's endless innovation in metal. Go pick up Nothingface by Voivod.

As far as interesting, that's once again a subjective thing.

Here's a link to an (admittedly short and surface level) article that I wrote on "psychedelic metal". It touches on some of the issues you mention, and in retrospect is also a bit analogous to that NY Times piece...

http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/Content?oid=37692&category=34558

"You can't accuse me of generalizing and then turn around and do the same thing to another genre. I think Slayer is godawful, so of course it's not inarguable."

I was just illustrating the ludicrous nature of the statement with an example/perspective you could understand.

I can understand anyone not liking Slayer. But to objectively state that they are without merit would imply a complete inability to appreciate music that isn't in your personal comfort zone. They redefined extremity in the 80s and continue to own the benchmark they set twenty years ago.

"redefined extremity," could you please define that?

You bet.

http://www.slaytanic.com/images/covers/reign.jpg

Erm, that's kind of what I was referring to when I was talking about this cheesy attempt at abrasiveness. In fact, I SPECIFICALLY had Slayer in mind, after being forced to listen to "Raining Blood" more times than necessary throughout the years.

But how does you not liking it make it any less relevant?

I appreciate that you personally are looking for something less brutal and more thought provoking...

As far as I see it, Slayer really only had an influence on the progression of metal, which is something I've never really cared about. Things are only relevant if they have an effect on the listeners, I guess.

I'm not saying that all music needs to be based in situationist literature or French post-modernism or whatever. I listen to some shitty music, but I'd never brag about it and would still be able to listen to it while also admitting that the music has no real worth.

Does anybody have a "Do Not Feed the Troll" image? I mean, this argument is fairly pointless -- we are clearly never going to convince this person that metal has any worth, and when even Geir admits it does, that makes this an argument not really worth pursuing.

As I recall, the title of this thread is a question, and I'm attempting to answer it.

I guess I'm just making up for lost time.

This really is a great example of why people hate metal. Because they don't understand it, and when they try to, they so often just pat themselves on the back for reaffirming their reasons for not liking it in the first place, rather than finding any new insight or trying to change their own sensibilities to accommodate a style they can't handle.

Thanks SSC.

"Can't handle." This sounds like something a burnout would say to his mom about Black Sabbath or Led Zep or something, as if machismo were the only important thing in life. Like I said, there's a lot more challenging music out there, stuff that isn't embarrasingly cartoonish.

My Mom saw Zeppelin with Grand Funk Railroad in '69 and took me to see Ozzy in '95.

I also like a lot of other challenging music.

I guess if you want to concede the machismo to me (a 5'7" skinny, bespectacled white guy), then feel free to admit that metal challenges you; and you aren't up for the challenge.

LOL and good night.

Look, we aren't saying that you have to like metal. It just seems like your reasoning, as you put it on this thread, boils down to an unfamiliarity with the genre in general, and an utter unwillingness to do the proper legwork to make an educated argument against it that doesn't consist of "it sucks because I don't like it." I mean, I'm not a huge fan of hip-hop in general, but there's a reason I don't participate in hip-hop discussions or write criticism about it -- I don't really know enough about it beyond surface things to add much to the discourse.

Same here. My knowledge of hip-hop kind of starts and ends with "Jam On It" by Newcleus. But I don't dismiss it as a valid form of music. Even if it doesn't contain a lot of "theory or intelligent thought"...

But let's all agree that Throbbing Gristle is better than the average hip-hop band. Can I get a get a high five?

When an entire genre revolves around certain elements (it's hard to argue against the idea that, even with all the subgenres, there's still an identifiable "metal sound"), and those elements don't appeal to you, why isn't it okay to dismiss the entire genre?

I should add that metal is the one genre that is okay to dismiss without doing much research. It's kind of a blight on the history of music.

yeah, you can go. you're done.

Shhh! (He wants to have the last word... let him.)

Are there campy furnace blasts?

Not sure it's even possible. But if it is, I'd love to hear 'em.

(I actually have no idea who or what Angelic Process is, by the way.)

Which is shocking given that you heard like what, 700 metal albums this year. Shoegazer metal. A sound bigger than the planet from whence it came. One of the experts here can liken it to another metal band. (Neurosis maybe?)

I'm merely wondering if hardcore fans of said acts are hearing them the same way

Wild guess (probably applicable across the board): Some do, some don't? (And even if none do, so what? How you hear it is how you hear it. Fuck hardcore fans.) (Though fuck them respectfully, of course.)

Well, it doesn't keep me up at nights. And it wouldn't necessarily change how I hear it. I'm just interested in how band x is being received.

for every awesome one like Hard Attack

Dust or MX-80 Sound? (And Mountain and Bang are way better than you acknowledge, but to each one's own.)

Oh right! The Dust one (although I do like MX-80 Sound). I dig "Mississippi Queen." But nothing else by Mountain or Bang or Captain Beyond or SRC or Black Heat or Nitzinger or Silver Metre crunches as heavily as Dust's "Suicide" (didn't dig the first Dust album, though). Fwiw, I like the non-ESP Godz and White Witch and Sir Lord Baltimore. Select cuts anyway. A campy to the tits, those.

I also don't get why Exile on Main Street is an "of course"; do you mean compared to the more rocking earlier Stones records? Exile always hit me as a big blob of beauty, though; not something I really had to work toward

It's an "of course" because A LOT of people didn't like the thing at first but worked at it and eventually got it.

But you should still figure out what you like... (and hell, who was it that said feeling records were things you had to become worthy of is usually a waste of time? 99 times out of 100, if I don't like something, there is no way I'm going to "learn" to like it later on. Though of course there have always been exceptions.)

Come on - I know what I like. My tastes are hardly secret (disco disco disco; house music all night long; electro R&B; DeBarge; rap; Shanté; punk; Nuggets; New Order/York Dolls/Pornographers; The Sweet; pre-rock pop; etc.). But so what? Some of those I had to work at; some not. Most of the time, though, if I don't like something after a few listens, I'll move on. Most of my all-time fave singles I've liked instantly. But again and to use you as an example, I love your writing so gawd help me I took some time with Mountain or whatever. And after enough diminishing returns, I stopped using Stairway to Hell as a consumer guide (which is why I'll probably never hear Granicus or Bull Angus or Hard Stuff or whatever which I'm more than okay with). Which doesn't lessen my pleasure in the book, mind. Still, is this really such a strange way of listening? Or something uncommon in these parts? I mean, look at how long that 2007 Year End Lists thread is now.

the S/M inflection of his homosexuality reinforces those macho elements

Dude, you've checked out Accept and Leather Nun, right?

Oh sure (and guess who held my hand, theoretically speaking). But I wasn't the one who said Halford did it first or best or whatever. I was just trying to show that gay and macho are not mutually exclusive.

A campy to the tits, those.

AND campy to the tits, those.

really the only thing i find it hard to believe re: metal is the idea that someone who likes metal could possibly not understand why other people don't like metal, or chalk their dislike up to 'not giving it a chance'

i listen to lots of things that i think are really great but that i really wouldn't expect other people to like because of aspects of the music that are easily identifiable (by me) as silly or strange or dumb or cheap or abrasive or whatever else. i chalk the stranger parts of my taste up to my own strangeness. i think, when compared to dance or pop or what most people would call enjoyable or favored music, metal should seem very strange. but while some metal fans i've met acknowledge that strangeness the same way i would, most do not.

most of the people on this board are tolerant enough of others' intolerance to understand the reasons why a person does or doesn't like something, and we can still get along just fine agreeing to disagree. but i kind of get the feeling that a few of you would turn on metal cd after metal cd if i told you i haven't heard any metal i'd liked, and they might be a little different here and there but would likely all sound very similar, and maybe you'd say "well what's wrong with this? not enough soft parts? here listen to this opeth cd, it has soft parts and you just told me you wanted more dynamics? well ignore the singer..." etc.

they might be a little different here and there but would likely all sound very similar

ok here is your key error.

The main reason why I dislike metal is that, to me, most of it just sounds way too angsty and noisy and dark and miserablist for my tastes, plus the lyrics and record sleeves often give the impression of adolescent fantasies, usually centering around death and pain and misanthropy and stuff like that. I have nothing against angst and darkness in small doses, but I probably couldn't stand to listen to two metal albums in a row, let alone have my main musical diet consist of metal. I don't think metal is a unworthy musical genre, it's just that it's main aesthetics and subject matters are not the ones I look for in music.

I once asked a friend of mine, who's a proper metal-head, "What do real metal-heads listen to when they're in love and feel romantic?" He replied, half-jokingly, "Real metal-heads never feel romantic." I think that pretty much sums it up why metal is not for me.

Also, I think the noise aspect is pretty important reason why I don't like metal. Even if I'd listen to metal band with compelling lyrics (and no doubt there are many), metal's aesthetic focus on being noisy and loud would turn me off. I've never liked any sort of music that centres around noisiness and harshness. I listen to a lot of electronic music, but I hate genres like gabba too.

There's a lot of doom metal that is steeped in romanticism and melody.

But certainly no one needs to like it that isn't interested. I only defend the genre against people who try to ignorantly discredit it. Not people who would rather turn a blind eye to it altogether.

It's very simple.

boring troll is boring Nate & others, really no need for feeding time

He probably hates country too

ILX : What is The Genre Of Music You Dislike/Hate Most?

>>AND campy to the tits, those

What, White Witch, the Godz and SLB? Not exactly. You might think so from a lens in 2007-2008, but they weren't camp in the slightest when originally delivered. The Godz -- camp -- hah-hah. Power drinkers who did their best writing when they were about halfway to gone, would be more accurate. White Witch were basically psychedelic hippies from Florida.

Campy meaning "gay" or just "showoffish", much metal can be in both of this category.

I'd imagine anyone listening to the first Godz record now, without a priori experience, naturally thinks "They couldn't have possibly been serious!" But they were. Live recordings made this abundantly clear but they're not common.

By the time of the second album, they'd made a boring southern rock LP. If you saw the cover, you were immediately deluded into thinking it might be even more special than the debut. Then you got it home and the shrinkwrap came off, spoiling it. Being produced by a guy from Grand Funk made a difference.

White Witch were opposite. The first album was kind of soft-sounding.
For the second, the bizarro quality came out in a more determined fashion.

Dig up Pavlov's Dog in 2008 -- like they apparently do in Deutschland where the few and most crazed fans of the band seem to reside -- and many'd think they had to be camping it up. But nope, they weren't self-conscious at all.

Pavlov's Dog were great! I saw some footage on youtube from Germany in 2007. David was still in good voice. No idea who else was in the band though.

Louis have you read this yet? What do your fellow students think of metal?

I have read this, in fact. My fellow students? The ones who like metal, and there are a few, shape their entire lives and fashion around metal. They wear black, have tattoos and piercings, and largely socialise with one another. They don't tend to like the weirder, more complicated/experimental/esoteric sorts of metal, and I doubt many of them are big Black Metal fans either. Which is OK, because I'm not really a great fan of traditional metal (some BM excepted).

Students like myself, who absolutely adore quite a lot of metal (mostly of the extreme or experimental kinds), along with lots and lots of other wildly varying sorts of music, I have never met. Anywhere. I suspect that even the 'indie illuminati' would run screaming from the room if I stuck Portal on. It's sad.

To be fair , I doubt I've met many folks like you either ;)
You need to DJ @ the union.

L0u15 J4gg35 we must have drinks one day.

I feel like Metal isn't a very popular genre mostly due to bands like Slipknot who don't exhibit talent akin to the skills of other bands. Then again, I personally find Iron Maiden to be a good example of metal worth the time to listen to.

Ah see? Here we go:

>>AND campy to the tits, those

What, White Witch, the Godz and SLB? Not exactly. You might think so from a lens in 2007-2008, but they weren't camp in the slightest when originally delivered.

To be precise, this is a c. 1990 lens. But what you're saying here actually supports an argument for these records giving off a camp stank. Part of the camp strategy (at least in its earliest incarnation as a code of the closet) concerns reading a text against how it was originally delivered, to use your terminology. The self-consciousness of the artist isn't required.

But let's put camp aside. How about simply "funny?" I think these records are funny (SLB less so but still) and getting absolute proof that each band was 100% serious doesn't change that fact (indeed, it may augment the humor but that's moving back into camp territory). So I guess my question to you, Gorge, is do YOU think they're funny (in addition to other things, of course)?

I mean, aren't yuks to be expected from "Power drinkers who did their best writing when they were about halfway to gone?"

And why is "a priori experience" necessary? Bangs thought White Witch were a scream at the time. Xgau called The Godz "funnier than Blue Oyster Cult" in 1978. Besides, I wasn't even in double digits when these dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Also, I'm genuinely curious - how do live recordings of The Godz make it abundantly clear that they were serious?

Finally, don't know Pavlov's Dog. If they're anything like the three above, I wanna hear them.

The singer has a voice like Larry The Lamb on helium. It puts most people off.

See if you can find the track Song Dance

I would have drinks with all this steendriver myself. One day.

K3rr, you'll be delighted to know that my brother, in his slavish adulation of my many Internet quests, has downloaded the vast majority of your 2007 top 20 (having already done the same with Scott's). I'm about to pile in...

wahey

Let me know what you think.

Re live recordings of the Godz: They were a bit too thick and into the I-could-be-a-rockstar thing and had no particularly obvious sense of humor. The live recording I have was for some Clevo or Cincy show boosted by a local radio station that definitely wouldn't have played their records. But there they are, acting between numbers like the arena act they weren't. Might be some talk on it, too, of them being off for awhile because someone had been in prison, mostly likely on a drugs or firearms violation, as I recall.

Yeah, -of course- the Godz were unintentionally funny. When I stuck a soliloquy on a Dick Destiny record, copped from Peter Fonda's "we wanna be free to ride our machines and not be hassled by the man" thing in The Wild Angels, it was because I thought a similar-in-tone one on the first Godz album, was priceless. Of course, the Godz seemed to be very serious which is why it works better than if they'd been winking at the audience.

They were destined to always be, at best, a one off, commented on by people like XGau, a guy who has absolutely no ear for the kind of stuff they did. You listen to Grand Funk's first live album and it sounds similar. I can easily imagine the jaded listener of today saying to himself, "That guy wasn't serious... it's a joke, right?" Eesh, even Hendrix sounds quaint between songs.

Try David Byron-era Uriah Heep. Here's this guy with the high voice singing about being taken to a little shack, were the gypsy father put a whip across his back. Someday, he sings, he'll return as a man again, strong enough to fit and win. Err, no, Dave. Not buyin' that for an instant. At the time I bought the record and saw 'em, I didn't much care about the lyrics, which were stupid. "Love Machine," for instance. It's totally saved by the methamphetamine shuffle beat driving it.

It was all about the riffs and Mick Box and the wah-wah guitarring. A couple years later, after the novelty of the style had worn off, I got some added enjoyment from the sillyness of it.

Uriah Heep did have a sense of humor, although they didn't show it much early on. It came out when they became secure, in the form of a kazoo arrangement on The Magician's Birthday.

And last, I wouldn't waste a lot of effort on Pavlov's Dog unless you see a used CD or vinyl cheap. The idea of the band was always better than the reality.

Herman is your top ten in that 2007 year end list thread?

Sigh of relief. Amazing post, Gorge. Thanx!! But what's the name of that getting whipped Uriah Heep song?

I think I posted a link to it on the metal list thread

xpost

Gypsy. Two versions. One on the debut album. One on Heap Live in 73. Both suffice.

x-post
of course now I can't find that list thread

Found it:

Official 2007 Year-End Metal Poll/List Thread

yeah i just posted a link to my list there as i couldnt find a link to my updated list

"Johnd", this shirt you meant: Cattle Decapitation?

hai scott...

Lots more readers posts today. http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/12/why_is_metal_still_ignored_by.html It's nice to know Guardian readers are more blinkered than ilxors!

There's at least 1 ilxor on there though.

I seriously want to take a bloodaxe to some of that lot. ;-)

Against the weekly naked hostility that's standard scenery on ILM, it read a bit tepid. Not a truly clever retaliation or insult in sight.

they were all drinking tea with one hand and typing with the other, gorge!

Shame Dom hasn't posted on there

metal is for nerds like me.

UP THE IRONS!!!!

Do you drink tea?

TEA IS FOR PUSSIES.....I DRINK THE BLOOD OF GOATS

ok, so back to metal...did anybody thinkthe last Symphony X was horribly lazy for them?

No idea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalcore now there is a maligned form of metal despised by many metalheads. Yet is incredibly popular.

But why?

Why is it popular, or why is it despised?

It's popular cos it's the hardcore punk equivalent of focus group music

Why is it so popular?

its popular becaus its made out of metal

That shit is popular because image is first and foremost. All the bands tend to be derived from the same thing. They are willing to use the same stylists, videographers, logo designers, shoe sponsorships, and autotuning software.

Also because the bands are young and willing to do anything to succeed, corporations invest tons of money in them.

The labels won't invest the same in older bands with original ideas because they are harder to control. Fact.

METALCORE = GLAM, DUDES

"Fact"!

The labels won't invest the same in older bands with original ideas because they are harder to control. Fact.

I don't think this is really true. It's generally harder to get the public excited about older bands - the "here's a new band who're very exciting" hook is considered one of the surest ways to sell papers/get pageviews, and besides, lots of music fans are especially partial to The New Thing, whatever it is. I think the labels respond to the market first last and always. If they don't invest in an older band, it's because they don't think they can make as much money from them as they can from a younger one.

There were a couple of good metalcore bands a few years ago and I'll still listen to Dillinger Escape Plan any time, if they count, but Nate is correct about the general homogeneity of it.

I like DEP and Converge, but I don't think of either as Metalcore.

I probably should however check out At The Gates.

I had an ATG album years ago, and remember liking it a lot - they were like a more symphonic Carcass.

at the gates are awesome.

Ok I'll check them out.

Metalcore is like any other sub genre -- some great bands (Shadows Fall, Killswitch, beyond the Embrace) and a whole load of total crap cash in bands. There is a glut of it right now, because it was the dominant "commercial" sound for a while, but that doesn't mean that there isn't signal among the noise.

Can't say I like the bands you mentioned, Jeff.

One of the reasons i cant watch headbangers ball was the amount of that stuff.

I've fallen way behind the times. Is "Metalcore" still the preferred genre of hard rawk preferred by the white 14-19 year old tight blue jeans set in the U.S.? It seemed it was 4 years ago and I was wondering if things had changed?

My space death metal (like Job for a Cowboy) seems to be the up-and-coming sound.

Herman: well, I'm not a big fan of the crazy experimental black metal stuff everyone else seems to love, so to each their own.

I have heard Job for a Cowboy and they were terrible.

space death metal

^^^THE NEXT STAGE

http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08016/ASTEROID.png

srsly I think if they took black metal and gave it an electronic, intergalactic, psychedelic twist, I'd be leaping about like a 10 year-old

dude totally serious:
https://www.insideoutshop.de/images/1470_large.jpg

plus check zombi & maybe flying saucer attack

srsly I think if they took black metal and gave it an electronic, intergalactic, psychedelic twist, I'd be leaping about like a 10 year-old

the album you want is by a band called Sigh however coincidentally their name is also how I feel explaining that there's actually lots of black metal that isn't Immortal press photos

great fuckin logo
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/Sigh_logo_sm.png

Well, I know that! I'm just saying that the extra level of psych-madness would be interesting to hear. I've heard and loved getting on for 25 black metal albums from 2007 alone.

Nocturnus and Oxiplegatz both had an sci-fi edge in their death metal, back in the early-mid 90's.

@Just got offed: Darkspace might be just what you're looking for.

I don't want the electronics and whatever have you to sound tacked-on, extraneous to the core metal. I merely want to see a piece of genuine black metal made out from unusual sources, with perhaps some innovations in rhythm/melody thrown in the works too. Sci-fi edge = not really what I'm after. It's not the lyrical content, it's the sound that I want to be out-there.

>I merely want to see a piece of genuine black metal made out from unusual sources, with perhaps some innovations in rhythm/melody thrown in the works too.

Have you heard Spektr?

Not yet!

If it's a guide, my favourite recent BM records have been Deathspell Omega's latest, Caina's latest, Portal's latest, Xasthur's "Subliminal Genocide", DHG's latest, Wolves In The Throne Room's latest, and Mayhem's latest. All of these records show some sort of innovation, some sort of effort to create and define their own distinct sound-world, as well as some classy, classy BM songwriting.

Spektr look very much up my street. I'll check 'em out!

Darkspace are fairly awesome btw. :)

I don't want the electronics and whatever have you to sound tacked-on, extraneous to the core metal. I merely want to see a piece of genuine black metal made out from unusual sources, with perhaps some innovations in rhythm/melody thrown in the works too. Sci-fi edge = not really what I'm after. It's not the lyrical content, it's the sound that I want to be out-there.

you should really get that Sigh album sir, it is pretty much exactly what you're asking for

Cool, thanks! I'll check it out. My one misgiving is that according to Wikipedia, their next two albums were very straight-down-the-line retro-metal with electronic bits. Hopefully they had the cojones to pull off the experimental black metal epic you so describe.

Oh, and that Moonsorrow album's pretty awesome too. Got to the stage where I didn't want the first track to end. :D

Darkspace are fairly awesome btw. :)

Glad you liked them. I think they are offering the first album for free download.

Except I can't get into their website!

The site is tricky to navigate. Anyway, it's not Darkspace 1 but -1 (2002 two track demo) what is up for download. Downloading as I type...

http://www.darkcyberspace.com/dsms.html

So are Trivium metalcore or what? Cos I hate those guys. That dude's face makes me irrationally punchy.

I think so, but they want to be straight ahead Metallica now I think.

i still think they sound more like testament. but shitty.

I could see you digging Negură Bunget quite a bit, Louis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8wB7emt6ig

^this track is fucking awesome

http://www.myspace.com/negurabunget

there's actually lots of black metal that isn't Immortal press photos

I like immortal press photos! I mean, like unironically. I wish all bands looked like immortal TBH.

Negură Bunget have a new album that will be released later in the year.

As someone who’s re-discovering their inner headbanger, thanks all, I think there is a lot of crossover between the punk/post-punk/noise aesthetic and some metal genres. Folks like Caina; Alcest (Is he even metal anymore?) Velvet Cacoon, Corrupted, and Striborg are experimental loners mixing metal with other genres like folk, classical, noise, shoegaze, ambient, and punk. Not to mention all of them have an "I'm going to do exactly like what I want to do, the world be damned" attitude. That's why I don't understand why anyone who’s a fan of the above styles dismissing metal.

Absolutely OTM. I've been listening to a lot of this stuff over the past year, and it's mainly down to the recommendations of folk here. My own tip would be Nortt, who does 'sepulchral' better than anyone.

this Negura Bunget track is super!

http://music.guardian.co.uk/rock/story/0,,2230372,00.html Just read this piece on High On Fire by Stevie Chick.

"Fact"!

Thanks for the ribbing. I'm laughing at the 'fact' that I wrote that too.

:)

Xpost: thanks for the Negură Bunget links. Astonishing. Never heard of 'em - it's another world! There's an absolutely crazed live track up on youtube as well.

Some would recommend Drudkh. But supposedly they hold some "dodgy" views which has stopped me buying their stuff (which is a shame as the music is quite excellent at times, at lest what I've heard of it)

Just d/l it and give the money to somebody nice.

Give your money to jim!

How thick wd you have to be to be a Slavic Nazi?

xpost Don't give it to me dude I will only waste it on mucky beer and feeling poorly.

x-posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drudkh

But with the money you could get good beer!

All beer is mucky.

HEY UKRAINIAN NATIONAL SOCIALISTS HITLER WAS A REALLY BIG FAN OF YOUR PEOPLE AND CULTURE

Drudkh have frequently been associated with the National Socialist black metal movement, a charge that has proven controversial among some of the band's fans. The tape versions of Drudkh's albums have been released by Oriana Productions, a label ran by a member of Ukrainian NSBM band Nokturnal Mortum, and one of Drudkh's official shirts also describes the band's music as "Art for White Intellectual Elite". However, many fans consider Drudkh's categorisation as a NSBM band to be misleading, since there is nothing in Drudkh's music or lyrics that would suggest a National Socialist outlook, and Drudkh's official press releases describe their politics as Conservative Revolutionary, referring to a German movement from the 1920's. This movement somewhat predates Nazism as it was anti-democratic, anti-liberal, anti-egalitarian, anti-communist and rejected Enlightenment ideals; however, the majority of Conservative Revolutionaries eventually opposed the Nazi regime, mainly because National Socialism became a demotic and populist mass movement while Conservative Revolutionaries were strictly elitist and intellectual. Perhaps reinforcing the band's description of its politics as Conservative Revolutionary, it has also named one of its instrumentals in honour of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a nationalist guerilla army which fought both Nazis and Communists during World War II.

Drudkh have been particularly secretive throughout the course of their career, even for a black metal band, giving no interviews and not releasing the lyrics to several of their albums.

Still, right wing tossbags all the same.

>>Drudkh have frequently been associated with the National Socialist >>black metal movement, a charge that has proven controversial among >>some of the band's fans.

A hot seller at 750 - 1,000 copies.

Why is george always obsessed by how many copies an album sells?

1000 nazi metal buying punters is still 1000 too many

my favorite thing ever said to me on ilx was when I said I didn't wanna give my money to ns bands and some hardass from norway or sweden told me to "speak an endless amount of nothing"

"A lot of the best NSBM is bland"

xpost

The point being there's more print spent on it than actual dinero and that the old saying "him that pickets sells more tickets" doesn't always apply. Which would seem to be of some benefit in this instance. Plus, using figures has shown me how easy it is to gratuitously needle the thin-skinned among the fans of micro-niche bands.

Except you're the only one that gets upset by bands that sell a few hundred copies, which cant be bought in "best buy", getting printed coverage and mention it all the time.
Even DJ Martian doesn't give a shit about how many copies bands sell.

Bottom line is, I'll probably be buying a Negură Bunget CD - after studying the 'ideology' page of their website narrowly - but I won't ever be paying for anything by Drudkh.

But everyone will download!

For those who haven't already done so, please listen to some Agalloch!
Louis have you checked them out yet?

Xpost: Lavishly packaged CDs of weird music from obscure Eastern European bands? I've got my mad money right here - but you NSBM fuckers can step right back.

Nazis are big fans of my people, so you can probably guess where I stand on the issue... I won't even listen to Burzum.

I'M TOTALLY BUYING TWO COPIES OF THE DRUDKH ALBUMS NOW, YOU MUSIC THIEVES

I don't believe you.

dudes, everyone knows that drudkh are conservative revoultionary black metal. totally different thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Revolutionary

so I got this Encyclopedia of Metal type book as a late birthday present and on the inside jacket, Chuck, you get thanked at least twice, and Stairway to Hell gets mentioned.

(the book I'm talking about is the one with the foreward by Ronnie James Dio)

http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Heavy-Metal-Daniel-Bukszpan/dp/0760742189/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199632886&sr=1-1 this book?

That is the one! thanks

Let me know if there's a good section on doom and stoner.

Hehe one of the customers actually copied out a list of all the bands in it

There will always be controversy regarding which bands are included in a heavy metal encyclopedia (Bad Company? Kid Rock?) and which bands are left off (where's Keel? where's Annihilator? where's Meliah Rage? where's Death Angel?). But here's who made it: Abdullah, Accept, AC/DC, Acid King, Aerosmith, Alice in Chains, Anthrax, Anvil, Armored Saint, The Atomic Bitchwax, Atomic Rooster, Bad Company, Biohazard, Black Sabbath, Blue Cheer, Blue Oyster Cult, Body Count, Bon Jovi, Budgie, Candlemass, Cannibal Corpse, Carcass, Carnivore, Cathedral, Celtic Frost, Cheap Trick, Cinderella, Cirith Ungol, Alice Cooper, Corrosion of Conformity, Cycle Sluts From Hell, Danzig, Dark Angel, Darkthrone, Death, Deep Purple, Def Leppard, The Deftones, Deicide, Diamond Head, Dio, Dokken, D.R.I., Dust, Electric Wizard, Emperor, Entombed, Exciter, Exodus, Extreme, Eyehategod, Faith No More, Faster Pussycat, Fastway, Fates Warning, Fear Factory, Flotsam & Jetsam, Lita Ford, Fu Manchu, Goatsnake, Godflesh, Grand Funk Railroad, Granicus, Grave Digger, Grim Reaper, Guns n' Roses, GWAR, Hallow's Eve, Hammerfall, Hanoi Rocks, Helloween, Helmet, Jimi Hendrix, Holocaust, Iced Earth, Immortal, Insane Clown Posse, Iron Butterfly, Iron Maiden, Iron Man, Jag Panzer, Jane's Addiction, Joan Jett, Judas Priest, Katatonia, Kid Rock, King Diamond, King's X, KISS, Korn, Kreator, Krokus, Kyuss, L7, L.A. Guns, Lard, Las Cruces, Led Zeppelin, Limp Bizkit, Living Colour, Loudness, Yngwie Malmsteen, Manilla Road, Manowar, Marilyn Manson, Mayhem, The MC5, Megadeth, The Melvins, Memento Mori, The Mentors, Mercyful Fate, Metal Church, Metallica, Monster Magnet, Morbid Angel, Motley Crue, Motorhead, Mr. Bungle, My Dying Bride,

Napalm Death, Natas, Nebula, Neurosis, Nine Inch Nails, Nuclear Assault, Ted Nugent, Obituary, The Obsessed, Opeth, Ozzy Osbourne, Overkill, Pantera, Paradise Lost, Penance, Pentagram, Place of Skulls, Poison, Possessed, Prong, Queen, Queens of the Stone Age, Queensrych, Quiet Riot, Rage Against the Machine, Rainbow, Rammstein, Ratt, Raven, Riot, Rose Tattoo, The Runaways, Running Wild, Rush, Sacred Reich, Saint Vitus, Samson, Joe Satriani, Savatage, Saxon, The Scorpions, Sepultura, Sir Lord Baltimore, Skid Row, Slade, Slayer, Sleep, Slipknot, Slow Horse, Sodom, Solitude Aeturnus, Soundgarden, Spinal Tap, Spirit Caravan, Stormtroopers of Death, Stryper, Suicidal Tendencies, The Sweet, The Tea Party, Terra Firma, Tesla, Testament, Therapy?, Thin Lizzy, Tool, Trouble, Twisted Sister, Tygers of Pan Tang, Type O Negative, U.F.O, Unorthodox, Uriah Heep, Steve Vai, Van Halen, Venom, Vixen, Voivod, Warhorse, Warlock, Warlord, Warrant, W.A.S.P., Whitesnake, White Zombie, Winter, Witchfinder General, Y & T, and Zebra.
Of course powerhouses like KISS and Judas Priest are going to get many more pages and photos than a lesser known group like Cirith Ungol (who receive no photos) but it is near impossible to find any info on some of these more obscure bands.

Anyone read this one ? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1906002010/ref=pd_cp_b_1?pf_rd_p=317711001&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0760742189&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=199X7G8VZVAZKYHJCG2N

Sleep is definitely mentioned in there, as well as My Dying Bride, Candlemass, Cathedral, and many others. you won't find extremely underground acts in there but the big players are all there.

A few weird omissions (Bathory's not in there) but the writing style is very witty and a lot of the information is quite accurate (except for Savatage where he insinuates Jon Oliva left the band for two albums whereas he really played on them and wrote for them but couldn't get a mention in the sleeve for legal reasons).

one real good bit is where he mentions that Geraldo Rivera accused King Diamond of 'backmasking' satanic messages, and Daniel quips that had he just played the album forwards, he could have easily heard these messages.

Haven't read that one.

Ok, another weird thing about the book is that like...Def Leppard appears in it.

How about http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193259518X/ref=pd_cp_b_3?pf_rd_p=317711001&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0760742189&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=199X7G8VZVAZKYHJCG2N ? hehe

rofl. no.

tho there's plenty of groups in that genre I like, I have a feeling they'll focus on the shite ones.

It will probably just end up being the usual bunch of bitter quotes about how grunge killed the fun bands etc

rofl, then I don't wanna read the Lita Ford section. from the few times I saw her on MTV talking about that, you'd have thought Gestapo showed up in recording booths and physically removed all hair metal groups by violent force.

My two cents:

I can't speak for anyone else, but Metal is very loud and angry and this puts me off. Also, It seems like it a very monumental thing somehow (I'm aware that didn't make sense but I hope you get what I mean anyway) and I don't like monumental things.

I'm put off metal for the same reason I'm put off Rachel's basically.

That's not a criticism of Metal, even though I fucking hate Rachel's.

well, metal is loud and some of it 'is' angry but that's really if you're going by the metal stereotype.

you may enjoy doom metal a bit!

xposts. I just saw a thread where you mention liking Boredoms and Lightning Bolt. They're fairly loud and angry in places.

rofl, then I don't wanna read the Lita Ford section. from the few times I saw her on MTV talking about that, you'd have thought Gestapo showed up in recording booths and physically removed all hair metal groups by violent force.

I think I've seen MANY bands complaining about it on VH1.