Throwing Muses: C-o-D

Best track: "Fish" off the LONELY IS AN EYESORE 4AD compilation (the title of the album is a lyrical swipe from said tune as well).

As far as Hersh herself is considered, I haven't really liked much after Hips and Makers. She remains a unique lyricist, but the music seems so tame and normal in comparison. I'd hate to suggest -- a la Erica Jong -- that the decline is a result of positive lifestyle developments. You have to admit she isn't as fiery or great as she once was.

As far as Hersh the mother is considered, I'm normally irritated by couples who opt to overpopulate the planet with a big litter of offspring. Hersh is an exception to this -- the more of her genes floating around the better.

Had she kicked it by the end of the '80s, I agree she'd be quite the cult. Probably just above the level of Mary Margaret O'Hara (who is still alive, actually).

"Mexican Women" off House Tornado still spooks me. The line about running over the hill to tear off skin and eat it up comes to mind.

I used to whole-heartedly adore _Hips & Makers_, but soon found it to be a bit too samey. The same with _Strange Angels_ - both albums have amazing songs, though. It just seems that there's always that song (or two of those songs) that sabotage the pacing. _Sky Motel_ sounds like a return to her Throwing Muses days, but is a bit lackluster (again, with some gems in the rough). Those In The Know say that _Sunny Border Blue_ is her best yet. But they always say that.

I still like the first album just fine, though they drifted on material between that album and Ramona. For the later material, I like Limbo okay, but I much prefer University, which is chilling and slinky at the same time. (I'm convinced that after the disastrously ugly Red Heaven, Hersh took some time to learn restraint again, with the great Hips and Makes album, and then took those lessons back to the band format for University.) So. Classic.

'Ramona' also marked the last Muses lp with Tanya Donelly...

Don't agree about Red Heaven - side one, possibly best TM ever. Will expand tomorrow.

Another classic - "University" - contains best TM track "Bright yellow gun". That drumming!

Duds - Hunkpapa, Fat Skier, most of debut, side 2 of House Tornado.

Anyhow, absolute classic. Probably my favourite band ever. House Tornado and The Real Ramona are the peaks but I also love the first album, Fat Skier and Chains Changed unreservedly. I reckon they had a bit of a slump after Tanya left, as one of their main attractions for me was the interplay between the two guitars and voices, but University is still a fine album. Hunkpapa is the only serious misstep, with all its filler and mistaken attempts at going pop. Hips and Makers is also great but the last couple of Hersh solo albums have been a bit weak.

It's not as *finished* as The Real Ramona or University, but probably the one I'd say best defines what TM are *about*. It's a type of album I like - sort of like a Scooby album, but not quite. Can't think of a neat way to describe it, but these albums are usually seen as a move in a different direction, often a slightly wrong move (not a total disaster though), and polarise opinion like crazy. They're the kind of album I seek out. Other examples : "Brotherhood" , "Monster", "Punch the Clock".

I'd put them on a classic/sacred cow status equal to that of "The Smiths" (not the Smiths the band necessarily, but The Smiths, the Legend). In fact, for many of the same reasons-

First off, stunning and original guitarwork and musicianship (the hypnotic drums, especially the use of rolls for texture has only ever been matched by Echo & the Bunnymen)

Second, the interplay between two very powerful yet opposed figures (Ver Muses, however, managed to hold fast to their musical ideals even after the figures parted, as evidenced by the quality of the solo work)

Third, because no one has ever managed to quite penetrate and articulate the exact dimensions of the adolescent female mind in quite the same way. ("Delicate Cutters") In fact, probably *all* of the female experience- motherhood, madness, marriage, adulthood- without ever being cloyingly sentimental or insipid, or verving into the other extreme of being overly feminazi. Hersch simply *is* female, and she expresses it perfectly, not as an afterthought or a gimmick.

Standouts for me are:

The self titled album. I can no longer actually listen to this album, because it expressed and encapsulated so perfectly a time in my life that I would rather forget. It's not a fault of the album that I can no longer listen to it, but rather shows the POWER of it.

The Real Ramona. The two sisters at their most balanced, their most equal in power and songwriting ability, and of course, the band could not survive in that form. Also the most pop, and probably the most easily listenable of the albums.

Hips and Makers. Hersch wandering around the big, empty, spooky house of finally being a proper grown-up and wondering what to do with all the space. Never did anything so sparse sound so lush.

The distinction I make here also has a slightly bogus look. I haven't expressed it too well. But I suppose my point is: there is no difference, really - at least *in this particular context* - between the Smiths (the great pop group who changed so many of our lives) and "The Smiths" ("the great pop group who changed so many of our lives").

The Smiths (the band) = either "they saved my angsty teenage life" or "miserable whinging git Morrosey and his Elvis-ripping off henchmen" while The Smiths (the legend) = greatest British band since the Beatles, etc. etc. etc. and all the dissecting of the legend and the personalitys that shaped it and so on.

I was comparing TM to the legend, in terms of their status as giants of music.

Did I say "their"?

What you say above is eloquent and admirable. I wonder if one day you will be able to convince me of it. And I wonder what it would take.

I "heart" you, Stevie.

The physical - yes. "House Tornado" - yes (it made no sense to me and I ignored the tape for weeks; it made sense somewhere near the perimeter of an MoD firing range on Formby beach, late summer '89, wind whipping sand into my headphones).

The most excited I've ever been at a gig - Muses, Trent Poly, Feb '91. The most excited I've ever been about a forthcoming release - "The Real Ramona", Feb '91. The most disappointed I've ever been by an eagerly-awaited release - "Red Heaven", Aug '92.

Right - come on, Roger...

It must seem unreasonable of me to nitpick away at it like this. I'm not trying to say they're a Dud. I just don't quite see the Classic bit, either, on the whole.

"Not Too Soon" sounds totally out of place on _The Real Ramona_. It sticks out like a polished diamond in a pile of tarnished silver dollars. And it's Tanya's best TM offering, by a wide country hectare.

And it's funny that someone (Sean) thinks that _Hips & Makers_ is a back-to-basics move. I felt the same way, but I think that _University_ was actually recorded BEFORE _Hips & Makers_. I forget where I heard that, but I used that information (& that theory) as the foundation for my breathless praise of _Limbo_ on my site.

I can't remember the thread where this discussion took place.

BUT all I was really looking for from our Scouse friends was a (favourable) description which was a little bit 'closer to the music'. Stevie's stuff about Camille Paglia is great - but it's great cos Stevie is great, not (I submit) because TH are great (and CERTAINLY not cos Camille Paglia is great; heaven forfend).

I appreciate that the desire for a description which is 'closer to the music' might be another chimera - another senseless request which our Scouse friends will find it impossible to fulfil. At the end of the day (Clive), I have a feeling that they are talking as much about themselves as about TM - who (I suspect) were very important to them at a certain time in their lives and have thus made a kind of emotional imprint that they can't really explain. That is not a criticism - it might be the best reason for loving a bit of pop music (I think it's my usual reason). It's just that it's not very 'transferrable'. I can appreciate that TM meant something to little Stevie T when he was a wee boy writing vast dissertations for Christopher Bigsby - but I can't hear that in their records. (Or can I?)

You have clearly forgotten the early 90s, when every band from Suede to Blur was described as "The Best British Band Since The Smiths". That's legendeering on a scale with the B**tles.

Back on TM again, yesterday afternoon at the HMV mega-sale, I actually went and bought a copy of House Tornado and Fat Skiier on CD to replace vinyl back in storage. Damn ILM for influencing my record buying habits!!! Second time this week!

Wrong again.

I have not forgotten the early 90s. At least, not totally. I wish I could remember them a little more vividly than I do - but really, that's another thread entirely.

Your argument now seems to be that because some media people in the early 90s implied that the Smiths were a great band, they're not really a great band - that was just all Legend stuff. Whereas (you asserted above) talking about 'That Miserable Git Morrissey' is not Legend-peddling, but is simply the rough, unvarnished Truth.

From my POV (which as ever is not anyone else's POV), the Smiths are perhaps the greatest British band after the Beatles. Put it another way: they are perhaps the most important band to me ever. This is not much to do with constructing Legends; it's just the way I feel about this band. (I don't ask anyone else to share this feeling.)

I fear that what this 'debate' comes down to is that you don't like the Smiths much, and I do. Fear not, I have no desire to make you like them more.

But that does not stop them from having a "Legend" which has far overtaken either their music or their lasting influence. You are just unable to see them because your devotion outweighs your rationality.

If some people/lots of people/everyone except me/no-one thinks a particular artist is the best ever it couldn't possibly change the way that I think by itself. (However,weight of opinion might suggest that I have another listen and I COULD have been wrong all along : "Loveless". That's different.)

Masonic Boom: disappointed by your resort to cheap abuse. I maintain that you are mistaken and your distinction is, in this instance, utterly BOGUS. BUT you were right about one thing earlier: this is the Muses thread and we ought to be discussing them.

Totally sublime, forgive-them-anything-for-that Throwing Muses moment which Scouse worshippers at shrine of Hersh have not mentioned (perhaps don't like?): TWO STEP.

Sean Carruthers - Yes it rocks, but thats not its why it holds its own. Yes, maybe they did have something to prove and in my mind they did. The Real Ramona was a great album, but a follow-on would've been impossible. With Donelly onboard, it could've easily turned out to be little more than sugar-coated pop dross. Not that I dislike Donelly's post-Muses ventures, its just that I think another Ramona would've involved too many compromises. Tanya and Kristin were obviously going in different directions.

I agree with Dr C. - Red Heaven is a classic album. Its raw and fresh, like one of them just said "well its just me and you now, lets get down to it". Red Heaven really conveys a sense of rapport, especially Rosetta Stone. Kristin seems to hit upon something that transcends the 'bit'iness of some of their previous outings. To me, it appears as if she finally managed to give all her ambivalence a face of its own. Red Heaven has a very rich character, indeed. If they were attempting to reinstate a more personal and intimate sense of identity, then I think they certainly achieved it.

Given the choice between:-

a) a "chilling and slinky" male fantasy involving Kristin Hersh, ice cream and a black negligee.

and

b) the opportunity to ride along with someone blowing out the cobwebs during a transitional phase in their life.

... I would take the latter ;)

I definitely wouldn't say that you're only familiar with the "dud album", Dyson. From what I've heard of her discography it sounds like Hersh started with her most apocalyptic (or grating, depending on your tastes) work and then gradually mellowed, while remaining off-kilter and "in touch with her emotions". I'd certainly give the older stuff a try, but it's pretty up in the air what you'll prefer. I'm not sure myself, but my girlfriend would vote for "The Real Ramona" as her fave.

Would someone in the recording industry PLEASE compile all those odd EP / b-side / single tracks onto one accesible compact disc type object? Yo, Ivo! (This is especially urgent & key as I've found a SLSKer w/ the entire TM disco available for D/L - including the new album! - BUT a) they've 600+ people in their queue and b) their D/L speed is 0.8!)

David R. is BONKERS.

Get these and be a better human being:

HOUSE TORNADO + THE FAT SKIER
RED HEAVEN
LIMBO

Then go after all the others. When you're done, start with the Pixies.

I just saw Kristin play live about a year ago, and she's still got it.

http://www.inkblotmagazine.com/rev-archive/images/ca_muses.jpg

all! about! this!

Red Heaven is splendid as well, but really, The Real Ramona balances pop and barbed, spiky unease better than any album i've ever heard by anyone ever, FACT.

er...Tanya & Kristin are back working together? Did I miss a meeting? Details, STAT!

It's too different from the first album or 'real ramona' to really allow for easy comparison but... well, I liked 'red heaven' and 'imbo' ok but never ever listen to them. The songwriting here hasn't been so consistently on since the first two albums and eps. I'm 100% re-smitten.

but less classic after kristen started taking her meds. or something.

i have "soap and water" in my head all the time.

Thoughts on: Throwing Muses (s/t 2003) vs. Red Heaven vs. 50 Foot Wave - Golden Ocean ?

I've still not heard TM2003 or Golden Ocean ffs. I guess I've been wary, because I'm real picky about the TM output I do like. Ignoring the more average (by their standards, not others) albums (Hunkpapa, Limbo, University, for KH solo I dropped off after Strange Angels sadly) makes them seem SO much more legendary in my mind.

Relative prolificity (and Kirsten not losing the plot) has I'd agree, really hurt their standing compared to other similarly awesome bands.

Question.

Does anyone else, anywhere, ever, dislike "Not Too Soon" and feel, much like I do, that it's the one track that keeps The Real Ramona from being solid start-to-finish?

I much, much prefer "Green" and "The River," Tanya-wise.

The debut Throwing Muses album was released 21 years ago this week in the UK on 4ad.

Really? I feel so old....

The first TM song I ever heard was 'Rabbit's Dying' on 6UVS-FM (as it was called then) in Perth, Western Australia. Yes, it is/was a university station.

I recall buying the LP the very next day.

The first thing I heard was a demo tape with an early, creepy version of "Stand Up" that got circulated around Rhode Island.

I just digitized my early 4AD vinyl this weekend. Still classic.

Classic. Without a doubt.

I prefer Tanya to Kristin, probably because in a throw-down i think she'd fight dirty; biting, scratching, knee's to the kootch - you know, whatever it takes. The partnership between Ms. Donelly and Ms. Deal, however, was a great match, and today i'll listen to that first Breeders album even before something as good as "Ramona".

The Real Ramona and University are probably my least favourite of the Muses albums I own, despite the insane amount of love they get here. I think they're a touch too shiny sounding, especially University. House Tornado is classic from start to finish, it has a sort of raw countryish sound to it. I should probably hear the debut before I make any judgements on a best album though.

Tanya Donelly's songs are bright spots on the albums, they turn up just when you want a bit of variety. But Throwing Muses really is Kristin's band - it's the force of her personality that carries them.

Dave Narcizo's drumming is faultless as well. It's criminal how little recognition they get, honestly.

FACT: "Not Too Soon" sounds as absolutely perfect today as it did in 1991.

It sure does! That whole album, actually.

Because I'm such a blogwhore, do clicketh here!

The odd thing about "Not Too Soon" is that it was one of the Muses' earliest songs — they were playing it live long before the debut came out — and yet it didn't see the light of day until album #4.

"Fish" blew my mind when I first heard it in 1987ish, and that still sounds just as good now, too.

yea that's one of my favorite songs on the album now. after like alfred pointed out to me how good it was last year. really wonderful. it has an old-timey girl group thing about it too, great twist.

Just found this link — "Not Too Soon" was performed live on a University of Rhode Island radio show way back in 1985. I remember taping this show myself.

http://www.throwingmusic.com/jive/thread.jspa;jsessionid=ABD334DD295D68E646FE8682488F55F2?messageID=5337ᓙ

Fuck. Try again. http://www.throwingmusic.com/jive/thread.jspa;jsessionid=ABD334DD295D68E646FE8682488F55F2?messageID=5337ᓙ

Never mind.

I'm curious to know if anyone else has a certain Throwing Muses song or songs that will come into their head now and again for some unknown reason. For me the main one is "And A She-Wolf After The War". Although I'm also haunted by "Walking In The Dark", "You Cage"...and that lyric from something on House Tornado when she says "keep walking/If I did the same thing/Five hundred times/could you see it in the dark?"

I can't believe I wrote this almost a year ago to the day:

I'm not really sure the Muses are something I feel comfortable pulling out now, they seem tied up with all this teenager angst for me, not a pleasant place to revisit.

-- Bimble, Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:34 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

to answer your first question, tar kissers comes into my head a lot. or snake off uni.

i can't believe you said that either!

it must be some other thread where scott proposes that their debut is the best record ever made by a band whose members were all in their teens at the time. I think he's right.

Goodness, were they really all in their teens or are you shitting me?

The duet with Bob Mould on Red Heaven, "Dio", pops into my head every once in a while. Deeeeee-oooooooo.

bimble yes as far as I know they were all under 20, Hersh was 18.

I think that is right, ya.

I used to quite often get "I have to sleep/tangled in my familys hair" stuck in my head unbidden from Walking in the Dark. And "Fish" pops into my head now and then, esp if I've been counting something, as I'll start going "one plus two plus three plus four plus five plus six plus six plus six"

There is not one band on this planet that could make a record that sounds like House Tornado.

Are there any comtemporary bands that could be compared to early TM?

http://www.tobysnax.com/shop/

bimble yes as far as I know they were all under 20, Hersh was 18.
Yeah, they were all young ’uns. I remember running into David Narcizo at a club in Newport — this was after the debut came out — and offering to buy him a drink. He reminded me that he wasn't yet of age.

anyone heard this btw : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakuna - any good?

DIZZY!

the doghouse demo that came with the US reissue of the first album is incredible. the first album was burdened with an 80s production job (wow reverb makes the drums sound so good argh) but the demo is clean as a whistle making stuff like "vicky's box" cut deeper, and as a bonus the unreleased songs from the demo are just as good - "sinkhole"!

OMG this is back up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1exb_Uk-i-M

so great ("Shimmer" live)

^^Genius awesomeness!

Been listening to Cry Baby Cry constantly over the past couple of days. I keep thinking it's my favourite of theirs until I remember all the other ones I love. There aren't many bands who were pretty much uniformly brilliant throughout their career but in so many different ways. Every song is like its own little universe.

Anyone seen the Paradoxical Undressing show? Thoughts?

Shimmer posted above is pure goosebumps.

Throwing Muses are playing in Australia in January 2009.

It's going to be GOOD year.

Tonight. Corner Hotel Hotel, Richmond.

It happens.

I'm going too! This'll be the 3rd time (I think?) ive seen them live, 4th if I count Kristin's solo gig round the time of her first solo album.

Curious as to what kind of set it will be, and I dont have the most recent album so I'm stuffed if they play all from that.

This review of the Wellington show on Monday night might give you an idea of what you're in for...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/4817807a26666.html

Gonna be pretty happy if Shimmer, Start, Limbo and Pearl (!!) all get an airing again...

Thats half the set they did last time I saw them, dagnabbit! hahaha :)

In fact I remember when they did Pearl - a guy next to me was hollering all the lines in the quiet bit really loudly, and his gf snapped during a quiet part "thats it, I dont know you any more" and Kristin started laughing and almost lost her place.

If they did any songs from Fat Skier I'd be well pleased.

I'm a Limbo man.

That was a pretty damn fine gig! I was stoked that they did "Finished", I don't think I've heard them do that live before.

I'm exhausted now.

Set list as much as I can remember it of (this is totally not in order, I'm too hung over, and there were 3 songs i didnt recognise which I'll assume were from the 2003 album cos I dont have that). Shit they did a lot of songs. I guess thats easy when they're all fairly short.

Finished
Shimmer
Hazing
Start
Vicky's Box
Tar Kissers
Bea
Devil's Roof
Shark
Bright Yellow Gun
Say Goodbye
Pearl
Mania (awesome encore, I love how fucked up fast and crazy they do this live)

I'm sure there was more, my head's too foggy.

They didn't do The Teller or Fish which made me sadface, and the 4 times I've seen them I don't think I've ever heard them play a note from the Fat Skier ep which is odd, because I'm sure they used to do those songs back in the day. Interesting they always do Vicky's Box now when Kristin used to say she wouldnt play it live.

She wasnt as "posessed" looking as in the past. They just seemed laid back, grown up and fierce instead. Still got a fine scream on her though :)

Thanks for the report.

to see tar kissers live

i can't even imagine

or hazing

Yeah Hazing and Start are just *ecstatic* live, I couldnt help but sing along joyously, a lot of the crowd didnt seem to know older stuff and so I was probably being That Annoying Person heh.

I also got footage of "Finished" but Im not sure if I can put it on the yootubes because I filmed half the song in portrait and then realised that would come out sideways when watching back :(

omg start. i didn't know that's what it was called. this album got me through some crazy times.

wow and SHIMMER

so much university. shimmmmmmmmer

There were many bands then and today featuring lyricists on the verge. What made Throwing Muses stand out amongst their peers was their rhythm section. David Narcizo's cymbal eschewing, marching beats, and Leslie Langston's loping, perhaps afro-pop inspired contrapuntal basslines made Hersh's struggles entertaining. To be honest, I largely lost interest after House Tornado because Langston's role was being neutered, perhaps in an effort to woo the grungy alternative audience.

I don't know if you could exactly say Leslie's role was being neutered after House Tornado, although I'd say that was their best album - if you listen to Hunkpapa, a lot of the time the basslines are carrying the songs and keeping them from being ridiculously simple and anodyne. She'd left by The Real Ramona anyway.

Really excited that they played Devil's Roof and Finished, think that's made up my mind to go to the Breeders-curated ATP to see them.

I saw Kristin Hersh with Bob Mould at the Birchmere a couple years ago. I still love her.

Search Snakeface and Bright Yellow Gun, obv. Hips and Makers is classic; though I own and have listened to Sky Motel and Sunny Border Blue they don't really grab me in the same visceral way. But nevertheless Muses = classic.

not sure yet whether i can/want to go to the Breeders ATP yet (though Throwing Muses at ATP = long overdue and should be good) so hope there will be a London date too! I want to see this...

can somebody please tell me what this breeders ATP thing is immediately

snakeface is so good.

The Breeders are curating the All Tomorrows Parties festival in England (Minehead, I think) in May, confirmed acts so far: Throwing Muses, Breeders, Bon Iver, Kimya Dawson, Teenage Fanclub, Holy Fuck.

I've never really been sold on most of the stuff off University. I don't know why but it doesn't click, I'm surprised at how much love that album gets here.

it used to not click for me, and then one day it did. a lot.

it's the snare drums and textures. it's like an ocean. and her voice.

that festival sounds fucking amazing

Absolutely motherfucking classic.

How can you deny "Bright Yellow Gun," "Flood," "Honeychain," "Not too Soon," "Cry Baby Cry," etc. etc.

"Flood" is absolutely transcendent. The mournful lyrical repetition...and the gorgeous strings! Ugh, and that piano break/bridge.

OH, and SHARK

SUBLIME!!!

'i could kiss you for remembering my birthday, you should thank me for remembering your name'

'i could kiss you for remembering my address, you should thank me for offering my mattress'

I'm guessing one of the reasons Hersh's stuff is so haunting & memorable for me is the way she employs repetition with variation -- you hear it again and again in her stuff --

"Start with your eyes / when they eye me in twilight [...]
Pick me up / with the twine in your eyelight"

There's something literally twisted here, which is to say, literally involving.

So I've had a passing fondness for TM for many years and had always meant to investigate further, but never go around to in until recently, when I got my hands on The Real Ramona. I immediately fell head over heels for it & have since been searching their catalog backwards from that point to their s/t debut, and I love every minute of it (save, perhaps, for a few dud moments on Hunkpapa. I guess my next frontier will be the post-Donnelly material, which I am greatly looking forward to. I love making (re)discoveries like this!

Yeah, Hunkpapa had some dud moments as I recall. That album really felt like a step backwards for them when it came out. Although there's still some classic stuff on there ("Mania" especially), that's the album of theirs I tend to forget about.

The production on Hunkpapa is SO gross. "Dizzy" and the song about Kristen's life getting saved by rock and roll are the keepers.

where is my husband?

Yeah, that's exactly it, Alfred. It seemed like the big bad major record label was trying to make them something they could never be.

Track down the 10" or 12" edition of Dizzy for two absolutely stunning live b-sides, Mania and Downtown. The drumming and vocals on Mania are just frightening. A window into what Hunkpapa could have been with the right production.

Yeah, that's exactly it, Alfred. It seemed like the big bad major record label was trying to make them something they could never be.

― Earl of Gothington Manor (Bimble), Sunday, April 5, 2009 9:14 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

not sure about this. the band had a lot of different sounds, so i'm not sure about the "they could never be" part

Wasn't Hunkpapa the period in which K was going through some seriously bad shit? Mental issues (more so'n usual), divorce or custody battle of some kind and/or her ex manager screwing her over. Something like that? It shows in the emotion on it - or lack of, she seems so ... dead. In some songs this works though. I love "Hook in her Head" because it sounds so end of the rope but I'll kill you if I have to.

"hook in her head" is on the real ramona. it was before that album that she lost custody of her eldest son - i think the father was an ex-manager - and her mental illness was used against her during the hearings. hence the track "dylan" i guess. i don't get that it or she sounds "dead" though?

"hunkpapa" had a lot of record company interference supposedly. it's the weakest sure, but it's still got loads of great songs that haven't already been mentioned like bea and take, as well as mania etc.

I don't think it was all label interference. I remember an interview where Hersh said she could feel some people getting too overwhelmed, and thought she'd try writing songs with only one hook going at a time instead of three to six. even with thin production it's got moments. then they took a half-step backwards towards jumbled for "Real Ramona" (+ better production) and nailed what they were going for.

proud owner of grapefruit edition of "Ramona" CD

yea i was gonna say that ramona seemed too cool/sensible a progression for it to be all label interference

what's the grapefruit edition?

silkscreen of perfectly halved grapefruit on CD surface. same music. in 91, full color CDs were still kinda wowsville.

nice. the only limited edition thing i have is that brilliant live at maxwell's cd which came with the first copies of red heaven.

anyone seen any of the reunion shows? i'm gonna see them at primavera :D :D :D

Oh gods yeah I just mixed up Hunkpapa and Real Ramona, gah.

I have the live at Maxwells CD too, didn't know that was a limited run thing.

Joe: by reunion shows d'you mean TD is back in the fold? Wonder why that wasn't the case when they toured Aus a few months ago, if so. Not that I mind all that much.

Challops time: I never cared much for Tanya's work in the band, first EP and album aside. Yes, "Green" and "Reel" were brilliant, but I found songs like "Not Too Soon" rather tepid and poppy. They werent what the TMs were about, for me personally. It's perhaps worth noting I likewise really dont like Belly at all.

Yes, I often wonder how 'limited' limited really is....

(I too have the Maxwells CD. And 'The Curse', another "limited" live CD...)

Oh the Curse! Man I havent listened to that in f'rever.

I had some very early TMs (and Pixies) casette boots floating around. From the days they were still relatively little-known and just on 4ad. Raw stuff, quite good. Must try and find and mp3 them.

I may have said this upthread. I am going senile.

no tanya for the upcoming shows, they just hadn't toured for ages until nz last year and aus a few months ago, i think. don't call it a comeback, they've been here for years etc.

Yeah the show here in Jan was awesome, they still got it, well worth seeing them.

demo of a new song: http://throwingmuses.cashmusic.org/

sweet! thanks!

Throwing Muses raw studio feed on Vimeo. "unedited video of throwing muses in stable sound studio, portsmouth, ri, usa...january 2011"

!!!! amazing

Yay in the studio! Let's see which Muses are in there.

Kristin, David and Bernard... very good.

according to kh's twitter, they finished recording today: "loose ends tied up in the studio, everybody's going home...sad but, a year and a half in the making, the record sounds exactly as it should"

yea i just saw that! lovin it hard

So what is essential listening in your expert opinions?

real ramona was my intro to them, which i think is a good midway point betw. the early/late stuff.

1st album, Chains Changed EP, The Fat Skier are all great

other people might rep for House Tornado or the later stuff, but for me it's all about those first three (and "Fish" of course, a comp track).

The first, self-titled album is essential.

Real Ramona is the only Throwing Muses album I know. I rep hard for her solo album "The Grotto" and everything she's done with 50 Foot Wave. 50 Foot Wave is fucking massive.

would recommend House Tornado, one of my favourite albums of all time. as powerful as the debut, but in a more contained way - they took off the razor sharp edge. the debut IS essential listening though, and the EPs already suggested are similarly high quality.

Real Ramona is a good entry point for some, cause it's as about as big and colourful as they get without being dull. Late period albums (University, Limbo, second s/t) all solid but less remarkable than the early stuff. Avoid the awkward middle years (Hunkpapa, Red Heaven) until you get to know them better

ST first album is one of my all time favourite records.

e - I know that for a while, she would have a good selection of free/tipjar mp3s on her website. I dont know if she's still doing that, but it would be worth checking out.

I have to say start with the first album. It is them at their rawest core. Perhaps I'm biased because I've been into them since they began and hearing the debut and the Chains Changed ep just did my head in completely at the time.

He
Won't ride in cars any more
It reminds him of
Blow jobs
That he's a queer

...such a strange song.

skip Hunkpapa, but dl 'Dizzy' - it is a jam

seconding s/t, rr & esp. the Chains Changed EP

I still need to hear Fat Skier

Ugh I hate "Dizzy"!

Well no not hate. But I dont like it.

i don't mind dizzy but it seems like time has been unkind to it

will agree with everyone saying real ramona and the debut

ST first album is one of my all time favourite records.

― Bonnie Tyler The Creator (Doran), Thursday, February 10, 2011 1:48 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

not too soon >> everything else tanya donelly ever did

Nar I prefer her on "Reel"!

"Fat Skier" is a really good ep btw. Especially "Soap and Water", which is a delightfully schizy scattershot jam.

"This is my house, roll out the red carpet/hogs head on a ragdoll/never was a little girl"

Wait thats Garoux des Larmes. Anyway.

"Low Red Moon" was the best song Tanya ever recorded, you pack of trolls!

The order you first hear these things makes a big difference; I heard House Tornado before the debut and the latter always seemed kinda grey in comparison, like its muted cover. I sort of forgot about it for years. HT still sounds perfect and powerful but the debut I only really rediscovered thanks to reading Rat Girl last year, and it's incredible.

The received wisdom on Hunkpapa is that it's stymied by airless, flat production cos there are certainly some great songs in there, kinda writhing to get out (kinda hanging on his sleeve).

The Real Ramona has dated a fair bit to these ears. Red Heaven better than I thought it was on release. The subsequent records all have their moments, but nothing to touch the thrill of S/T-Chains-Fat Skier-HT.

I will happily listen to/read anything Kristin puts her hand to.

I was surprised to learn lately that "The Letter" (from Hips & Makers) was originally a Throwing Muses song written in 1984-5. so it's not so much a recollection/reliving of her past as it is an immediate expression of anguish. the recording I heard (from a 1985 radio session) is a 7-minute-long VU drone, but the sound quality is awful.

does anyone know if the bootleg of early ('83-'84) Muses demos is any good?

Wow thanks guys. I don't know how I never got into them earlier but this is sort of a newish discovery for me even though based on stuff I've listened to and loved throughout the years I should have been a fan for a long time by this point. Thanks for all the input. Will check it all out.

never heard those early demos, would be interesting. there are some live recordings spanning 1989-2009 at archive.org - http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=(collection:ThrowingMuses%20OR%20mediatype:ThrowingMuses)%20AND%20-mediatype:collection&sort=date
think there's 50 foot wave and hersh solo stuff too.

Oh I've heard some of (all of?) the early demos when they had that other member who played keyboards. Some of it was utter cheese! Like, nothing at all like what was to come - just clumsy 80s home pop band.

you also definitely want to listen to both Kristin Hersh and Tanya Donelly's solo work. at the very least, Crooked and Sunny Border Blue for Kristin, and Lovesongs for Underdogs for Tanya

thanks, tyler (xxp)! that's a lot to take in. there are some early Muses recordings here, including the early demos (which I haven't heard), a live set from 1986, and some early acoustic versions of tracks from their s/t.

in terms of recommendations I second their first two albums and The Real Ramona (I really like the way the guitars sound on that one). Kristin's solo album Hips & Makers and Belly's Star are also essential.

oh cool thanks right back atcha.
real ramona has a real early 1990s college rock sound, but in a good way imo.

"Dirt is on the Floor" is the one I'm thinking of. It wasnt even K singing I dont think?

Yeah see that's the thing I am a fan of their solo work and loved Belly too. For some reason I just never really went as far back as TM. shrug. Changing that now.

unregistered - I love Star and King.

not too soon >> everything else tanya donelly ever did

it's amazing!

The production of University is a real hindrance to an otherwise excellent, harrowing collection of songs.

what's wrong with the production on that record? too guitar heavy? i liked it the last time i played it.

I dunno, I love it an' that ("Not Too Soon"), but I recall seeing TD play "Green" on that first Belly UK tour and, I swear, there were grown men with tears in their eyes. And the song was only six years old at that point, you'd have thought it some half-a-lifetime-away nostalgic rush or something.

Real Ramona is 20 years old this month. Good grief.

tylerw, it's too...dry? Monotonous?

"Fat Skier" is a really good ep btw. Especially "Soap and Water", which is a delightfully schizy scattershot jam.

― Senor DingDong (Trayce), Thursday, 10 February 2011 23:14 (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Soap & Water is alltime for me also

I quite like how ~thick~ University is but it is so so different to anything they did from say 88 or before, I'm not surprised ppl were prickly about it

yeah, it seemed to be their "we're a ROCK band" record to some extent, but i dig it. Narcizo sounds great on it. And Hersh's vocal on "Shimmer" is scary good.

Oh I've heard some of (all of?) the early demos when they had that other member who played keyboards. Some of it was utter cheese! Like, nothing at all like what was to come - just clumsy 80s home pop band.

― Senor DingDong (Trayce), Thursday, February 10, 2011 3:28 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

Wow I never knew that their 1st 7" EP was a legit release! Why has this not been put out on CD?!?! yeah the one keyboard-based song is awful but it has The Party, which is total spine-tingling amazement.

Ah yes thats the one! Thats right, I remember being staggered that "Santa Claus" was so old. It sounds really creepy on that ep, very cracked and raw.

sorry to videobomb, and the sound's not the best, but I've watched this a million times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1exb_Uk-i-M

intense yo

I love seeing them live. I've seen them about 4 times now I think. Earlier on they were riveting - she'd look so posessed. These days she's a lot more laid back but still kicks ass hard. I took my ex to their last show here (posted above) and afterwards he would not shut up about how hot Kristin was.

Man I need to listen to the Bob Mould duet now.

Aaaargh I havent ripped half my TMs albums, what is the matter with me! *grump*.

"Dio" isn't as moving in reality as it is in memory.

I dunno, I love the matched roughness of Bob and Kristin's singing.

When I was in high school and the first album came out, I said to my friend David "imagine how amazing it would be if this chick sang with Michael Stipe?" (at the time REM hadnt turned into the bloated mess they are now of course).

So when she did "Your Ghost" I think I died a little bit.

Yeah I only listen to Stipeless versions these days. Such a great song.

Maybe it's because "Hunkpapa" is the first Muses record I ever bought but I find a lot to recommend on there. "Devil's Roof" is great, and "Mania" and "The Burrow" are both freakin' amazing.

Following the publication of "Rat Girl," Kristen and the Muses have been releasing free "Season Sessions" via the website, one each season, with newly-recorded, stripped down versions of Muses songs. There's a version of "Hook In Her Head" in the most recent set that is absolutely fucking tear-your-head-off great, probably better than the version on "Ramona." The complete track lists so far have been:

Fall
-----
Buzz
Devil's Roof
Flying
Mania
Mercury
Red Eyes
And A She-Wolf After The War

Winter
---------
Colder
Shark
Soap & Water
Juno
Hook In Her Head
Night Driving

If you don't already have them, grab them right away.

wow thanks for that

The only time I saw her was with 50 Foot Wave. I like everything that she's trying to do with that band (loud, not centered on her, etc) but I find that what really draws me in is that spare, desperate sound like on "You Cage", most of Hips & Makers, and some of the 1st LP. I tried Grotto and didn't click with it at all, maybe it's time for a revisit.

Another version of Mania is never a bad thing!

Ugh I hate "Dizzy"!

― Senor DingDong (Trayce), Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:09 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Well no not hate. But I dont like it.

― Senor DingDong (Trayce), Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:10 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i don't mind dizzy but it seems like time has been unkind to it

will agree with everyone saying real ramona and the debut

― down in the eustachian tube at midnight (electricsound), Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:11 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

I still like Dizzy quite a bit, but my fondness for it may be mostly rooted in nostalgia -- it was the only Muses song I knew for the LONGEST time, when I was a kid, b/c it was on one of those cheap Sire 'Just Say ________' comps, which I used to rock on my walkman ALL the time. I think 'Counting Backwards' may have been on another one of those. It was def the 'college rock' phase of TM that I gravitated to first. It wasn't until a few years ago, actually, that worked my way back to the more esoteric early records (which are def my current favorites). I really dig the Chains Changed ep b/c it combines the best both eras imo, esp.'Finished' & this track (not a beatles cover):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXcRvKaea5Q

ooh, that's one of my very favorites.

Finished is possibly one of my favouriteist TMs songs.

Ta for that link too Phil!

"Two Step" slays me.

^ If I were putting together a DJ set of early-90s 4AD releases by indie bands from eastern New England, I would fade "Two Step" into "Wave of Mutilation (UK Surf)."

An underrated song on RR is "Red Shoes."

I have such a soft spot for Limbo that I hate to ever see it slighted, even like this: "The subsequent records all have their moments" from upthread." Must be a highly subjective sentimental thing, but it's my go-to TM.

I would fade "Two Step" into "Wave of Mutilation (UK Surf)

Haaaa. Nice.

Yeah, "Limbo" was the album of the year it came out for me. Such a swanky, slinky vibe all over it. David Narcizo is AMAZING, moreso in person.

thanks for the link Phil!

^^

I should probably say here that I still go and watch KH at any given op and her recent shows, where she's been mixing up readings from her Paradoxical Undressing/Rat Girl autobiog with acoustic solo/TM/50FW etc songs have been amazing.

The book, unlike most rock star penned tomes, is a fabulous and engaging read; all the more memorable for being able to deal with such emotive subject matter (manic depression, institutionalisation, childhood trauma) in a humble but sharp manner.

She = total hero.

She so is.

What means hallucinate?
What are we supposed to see?
What are they supposed to want - get a job?
You scare me

Fuck, I love this band. For the 330 messages discussing their varying highs and lows, nobody has really pointed out the obvious - that even their weakest moments tower over 90% of music. It's amazing how, musically, Throwing Muses manage to sound like manic depression if manic depression was an audible noise, even without Kristen's twisted lyrics and intense vocals.

cool interview w/ kristin hersh via the awl - http://www.mischiefandmayhembooks.com/an-interview-with-kristin-hersh/

i didnt know there was a new throwing muses album on the way!

Here's where they sound like "Manic Depression"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwOyCAqUzxM

Fuck, I love this band. For the 330 messages discussing their varying highs and lows, nobody has really pointed out the obvious - that even their weakest moments tower over 90% of music. It's amazing how, musically, Throwing Muses manage to sound like manic depression if manic depression was an audible noise, even without Kristen's twisted lyrics and intense vocals.

― o0o00h really? (boxedjoy), Friday, February 11, 2011 5:35 PM (5 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

totes.

been really into acoustic kristin lately too.

NEW ALBUM!!!!!!!!!

i have this image - of a house, empty, and the wind

is moving through the house, the windows are open

the house is wood, and the back door is cracked, and there is a faint, ghostly music

i don't know why i have that image - but i always associate it with kristin, and certain types of music, and whiskey

Inspired by this thead, I went on a Hersh/Muses binge for the last few days. The 1986 self-titled is indeed golden.

i'm thoroughly convinced that every song on the real ramona is a winner. most of them have a subtle creep-under-your-skin quality as well.

^^^ Even trifles like "Graffiti" really stick with you. "Honeychain" = great predictor of what Belly was going to sound like.

oh yeah, i adore graffiti and its unique, almost magic-realist lyrics. i find it a really soothing song. so many strong songs towards the end of the album too -- honeychain being one of them.

Wax in your ears
Wax in miiiiiiiiiiiine!
heads roll and heads roll, heads roll and heads roll

The latest Season Sessions is up tody: http://www.kristinhersh.com/seasonsessions/

Track list:

Call Me
Carnival Wig
Catch
Ellen West
Fish
The Letter

Today, even.

best setlist ever

Damn I've just realised I downloaded those last 2 and still haven't listened to them yet, haha!

oh wow, I just downloaded all three of these. amazing!

She = total hero

OTM

Revive 'cos 4AD is releasing an anthology called (wait for it) "Anthology" which would not be super-interesting except the initial limited release has a BONUS DISC consisting of a bunch of B-SIDES and COMPILATION-ONLY TRACKS yahoo!

http://www.4ad.com/news/28/6/2011/throwingmusestoreleaseanthologyonseptember5th

Bonus disc tracklisting:

1. Hillbilly
2. Same Sun
3. Amazing Grace
4. Cottonmouth
5. Cry Baby Cry
6. Manic Depression
7. Snailhead
8. City Of The Dead
9. Jak
10. Ride Into The Sun
11. Handsome Woman
12. Like A Dog
13. Crayon Sun
14. Red Eyes
15. Tar Moochers
16. Serene Swing
17. Limbobo
18. If
19. Heel Toe
20. Take (Live)
21. Finished (Live)
22. Back Road (Matter Of Degrees)

Any words on the current tour? I am seeing them tonight - first time - and I am proper excited for it.

Saw them in Manchester last night - absolutely superb. I'm by no means a committed fan, but followed them until Ramona, and was looking fwd to it. Phenomenal musicianship (esp. Bernard Georges, that guy is incredible) and they made a real racket for a three-piece. Kristin seemed happy and focused, and the crowd was really into it; some sustained pogoing by a group of youngsters for about six songs, which made this old fool feel pretty nostalgic. I'd say you're in for a treat.

So fucking annoyed I couldn't go to that gig. I went to the Pixies/Muses Manchester International gig in 1988. A total game changer for me.

I find I go back to the "House Tornado/Soul Soldier" CD combo. So otherworldly - lots of bands tried to cop their style but none ever captured that sense of abject strangeness.

Is the Anthology a good way in for a newbie? My only exposure to the Muses world is "Hips & Makers"

Better choice would be the first self-titled album from 1986 or the Real Ramona.

If you can be bothered to look into which tracks on Anthology came from which album and then find the era that most appeals to you then it's not a bad place to start, but f.hazel is right, those are the two best and essential albums.

Show was awesome, Kristin really does have some set of lungs for screaming on her.

I'm a fan of well-chosen anthologies that showcase an artists entire career, and there's a second disc of b-sides and whatnot so I'd pick that up as it will never be redundant.

I enjoyed them last night although it was in this kinda converted churchy venue which didn't suit them sound-wise (feel like the promoter might have had Kristin solo in mind when booking it)

also it was sold out but the nature of the place means that that accomodates for all the pews round the side - most ppl stood up in the middle of the room to watch them, because indie rock - so it didn't really seem very busy

pretty crowdpleasing set - seems that Bright Yellow Gun is their best known song, not sure if I should be surprised by that?

D'oh! How did I miss the news of this tour :(

Monochrome production aside, University is a marvel, ain't it? Love Hersh's guitar throughout. "Flood" was meant for replay.

It is. "University" and "Limbo" are fantastic albums and "Red Heaven" is rather underrated (the duet with Bob Mould is !!!) as well though admittedly it's the live acoustic bonus disc that blew my mind.

'university' is my favorite. whenever i play it in the car i always end up listening to it two or three times in a row.

"Bright Yellow Gun" only gets a bit ehh when she hits that wah-wah pedal.

that's my favourite bit of that song!

yeah, holy shit "Flood", that's a great song. there's also something about it that makes me eerily -- though fondly --nostalgic for the 90's.

Teller's my personal fav

early radio performance, january 1985, they're like 18 years old

http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Throwing_Muses/Live_on_Noise_from_Neville_1985/

yeah! very cool, just saw that, too...didn't know they were doing "not too soon" that early...

pretty crazy how deeply original they were right off the bat.

very true. I think they started off as very original and got progressively less so after the first few albums.

I'm a big fan of the first demo + album but could never get into anything after that

Killer stuff, ty e3

my pleasure

^ Was just going to post that link. Wow, this rules!

They're baaack!

Can't wait for this. New song sounds pretty good on firts listen, nice and jittery. Hersh sounding like herself.

http://www.throwingmuses.com/#

Another story and song here.

http://www.spin.com/#articles/throwing-muses-purgatory-paradise-new-album-art-book-sleepwalking-1-sunray-venus/

new album(s) are pretty great.

Love the single.

On first listen, it's a great album surrounded by weaker material.

A few weeks ago, KH launched the record (sans other Muses, Bernard having broken his thumb) - fairly incredibly - at my local SE London bookshop, at about 12 hours' notice. Daniel Kitson (celebrated stand-up/storyteller and fellow Crystal Palace resident) was the first person in the world to own a copy. (I guess I was about the 12th!) She did another pop-up show at a north London bookshop the following night before a Rough Trade East appearance a few days later.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7457/10465482414_ed81697de4_z.jpg

<3 <3 <3

wow..time..

There are some incredible songs on the new album - just hidden in there...

I have still not managed to make it through this album without getting distracted. If anyone wanted to do an edited version, I'd be very appreciative!

not sure what sort of "edited" you mean but a lot of these tracks originally appeared in one piece as kristin's solo _crooked_ demos

http://kristinhersh.cashmusic.org/speedbath/

"morning birds" is so good

there's no news (well, kristin is releasing a book, but no band news) but still

thanks for that link above!

University vs. Limbo is a poll I make in my mind from time to time. Both records kick so much ass.

I'd pick Limbo, it just has this incredible swagger.

University has quietly turned into one of my favorite '90s records. I don't even mind Hersh's wah-wah guitar.

I like the wah! Yeah university is probably the muses record I reach for most often.

Saw the Muses (Kristin Hersh, David Narcizo and Fred Abong) play a great set Saturday as part of the band's induction into the Rhode Island Music Hall of Fame. From sweet hellos to a primal scream session in five seconds flat.

Wish In A Doghouse was more widely available on cd, it's quite a package and if I knew about it years ago maybe I would have all their albums by now.

This band always seemed well stocked in music shops but they don't get nearly enough chat.

Had a look in Fopp and there's only a damn compilation. Maybe the death knell for bands like this in psychical stores? I'll have to check HMV soon because I grudgingly use the internet shops when I remember there being piles of albums on the shelves.

One day several years ago I went to most of the music shops in Glasgow looking for Kate Bush albums and could hardly find anything. It must have been a freak occurrence.

I'll never stop regretting selling off my vinyl copies of The Fat Skier and House Tornado back when I was a stupid teen.

they're still cheap on Discogs, if that helps

Maybe, I haven't ever messed around with buying stuff ondiscos, but there's a bunch of vinyl stuff I'd like to find for an affordable price. I probably should try it out.

For the most part, I've had success on Discogs. But more recently, I've run into sellers that accept the order only to inform me a week (or more) later that they actually don't have the item. Refunds every time, but it just strikes me as odd that, of my last five orders on there (from completely different sellers), three have resulted in this scenario. Granted, it's not like I order that often; maybe once every four months or so. So, I don't know, maybe a fluke. Just seems weird.

Otherwise, yes: buy House Tornado! It's a wonderful album.

True, I still listen to it fairly regularly. My interest in the Muses fell off after that as they moved in a more conventional rock direction.

I have In A Doghouse which compiles a lot of the early stuff but I'm just seeing it for £25 on Amazon. Seems to be a bit cheaper on discogs.

In a Doghouse is very highly recommended; the first album and the coinciding EP with a ton of extras.

the two disc version with the early demos >>>>

Just scored In a Doghouse for 20 bux U.S.on ebay. I've given several of TM's lps a chance over the years but it's the earliest stuff that really resonates.

Glad i brought it up, it has some great stuff on it.

Wonder if the lps will see any further reissue?

& I have Kirsten's first book Paradoxical Undressing floating around the bedroom waiting to be read still.

Yeah steveo thanks much. I hadnt really thought about them in prolly 20some years (i'm 53!). But was inspired by yr post to spring for that compilation. That book sounds intriguing also. I'm not anti-donnely but kristin is the genius in that band, period. For me anyway

the book is amazing

Yes read it! Published as Rat Girl in the US. Kristin Hersh is as good a writer as she is a, uh, songwriter. Don't Suck, Don't Die is also great, about her friendship with Vic Chesnutt.

I really enjoyed Rat Girl, the descriptions of her synesthesia were really interesting

The mighty Chris O'Leary studies them in his new project:

https://64quartets.wordpress.com/2019/07/02/2-throwing-muses/

did i ever tell u guys about meeting Kristin????
she was hands down the most gracious poet i've ever had the chance to meet
i went up to her so timidly at the end of one of her shows
she was just incredibly kind.

(i'm sure i did tell u but it feels good to be able to brag about it again)

wow, that article is nice deep dive, cheers Ned

yep great article, thanks for posting.

great images too!

never heard those 1984 demos!

some of the only music so overwhelming that all forebrained attempts to reverse engineer how they arrived / performed the music fail. even now decades later, the technician always surrenders to how fucking amazing this music is

at least I could try to figure out the piano songs like 'walking in the dark', but I remember trying to figure out 'fish' on keyboards once. that was funny that I tried that

man, I love "Two Step."

xps Milton "In The Doghouse" is essential, yeah

really wish they'd reissue this:

https://www.discogs.com/Throwing-Muses-Throwing-Muses-EP/release/1435252

and I never knew "The Letter" dates from that period, so that's why it gives me chills

I knew "Doghouse" & the 7", but not the '84 demos linked in the article! amazing that Donelly had written 'Not Too Soon' that early

I have a long, long interview I did with Dave Narcizo back in 1994 and I don't quite know what to do with it - we published it in our little fanzine but it's completely obscure. He was the friendliest guy - blew out our allotted 20 minute interview to over an hour, once he realised I really knew the band's stuff - and at the show I travelled to in Melbourne, welcomed me like a friend when I crept up and said "I did that long phone interview." He invited my friend and I to the band room after the show, even gave us beers from the rider, I remember Bernard opening them on the edge of the table. I was too overwhelmed to talk to Kristin but she and Billy were friendly - pretty tired tho. Vivid memory from the show of K's electric blue eyes fixed on a point at infinity while she swayed around her Strat and its cowgirl decal.

dirt is on the floor is one of my favorite deep cuts, glad to see it mentioned

Me to Dave Narcizo in the mid-'80s, shortly before the Muses were to play at the Blue Pelican, a now-defunct club in Newport, RI: "Let me buy you a drink."
Dave: "I'm not legal yet."

Pretty sure I was at that spring 1985 show at the Living Room.

New album in May!

https://throwingmuses.bandcamp.com/album/sun-racket

excellent news! Hersh's recent solo stuff isn't clicking with me, I've been digging the Tanya Donnelly Swan Song Series though

New album is out! Who else is listening?

just picked it up from my office mailbox today!

Always thankful for new Muses. The usual curve so far: hard to get a handle on the songs at first, but struck by all the awesome sounds.

seems to have a kind of Red Heaven vibe

Starts off with a bang, "Dark Blue" has a great warped feeling. I should cherry-pick the best bits from their 3 albums this century.

The 2003 self-title is an untouchable classic front-to-back. It's awful to say but Kristin's blown-out voice is almost too uncomfortable for me to listen to now, which is so unfair because she's still writing great stuff.

The current voice does not bother me much; maybe even on the contrary, it is kinda correct that it is her in this era out of several. What was heartening to me at a cursory listen to this latest album was that it did not share that weird unlistenableness production- or mastering-wise that the 2018 solo album had that (awful to say) (in spite of still great writing) had me seriously doubting her ears.

hm, her voice just seems to have aged in the way I'd expect it to. Milk at McDonalds, for instance, she doesn't sound that ragged at all. Anyway, this is a great album and in fact, I'd be hard pressed to name one single thing she has released that isn't great. She's just about the most consistent artist I listen to.

I was surprised at how much I liked the new album after hearing at at one of Mr Tim Burgess's Twitter listening parties - to my jaded ears it sounded like it had the energy of an excting new band, not someone whose been on the go for a zillion years. I went and bought my own copy and I like it.

I like Michael Jones' post from nine years ago that the order you hear the albums in is important and makes a big difference. I was really captivated by the first album, and not as much by the rest.

thought Christgau's review of it was really incisive and funny, one of his most memorable, but it also really disappointed me (and made me doubt his future reviews) because I didn't see the album that way at all:

"When friends turn psychotic, I withdraw. I haven't found black leotards sexy since I broke up with Sheila in 1962. I'm rarely persuaded that verbal dissociation reflects any social problems but the poet's own. So while I'm happy to grant the originality and even craft of Kristen Hersh's quavery free-form folk-punk, I'd do the same for the art of H.P. Lovecraft, Anaïs Nin, or Diamanda Galas. Fans of whom will pay more mind to Hersh's buzz than I do"

I find that Xgau review to be mean spirited and sexist tbh

love that 1st LP though

every now and then i wonder if i should give xgau another chance and then i see one of his reviews quoted here and i'm reminded why i haven't

yup

This interview is terrific: https://pitchfork.com/features/5-10-15-20/throwing-muses-kristin-hersh-on-the-music-that-made-her/

TM = Ut for lightweights
― mark s, Monday, July 2, 2001 8:00 PM (nineteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

even xgau was not this wrong

Ha ha. 19 years later, Mark S's throwaway line still sticks in my head!

Happy to be a lightweight.

This is kind of following on from me talking about major labels on the Jawbreaker thread but I'm curious about Hersh in that interview being angry about signing to 4AD, but with Throwing Muses, her solo stuff and one 50 Foot Wave release, she wasn't finished with them until about a decade ago.

I’ve never heard her say a bad word about 4AD; wasn’t it signing to Warners (albeit encouraged by Ivo) in the US that was the disastrous thing?

correct

KH is not exactly unsung, but still a bit surprising to me how relatively less talked about she an TH is, compared to, say, the Deal sisters.

and* TH

what is TH

tanya honnely?

throwing huses

Jesus, sorry. Giant brainfart. T Muses, not T Donelly.

back on the 2003 self-title this afternoon, what a blast, maybe my favourite Muses? surely not
time changes on "Solar Dip" are absolutely core to this band

Yes! The 2003 s/t is maybe my favourite album of theirs since Leslie left. The rest of the power trio era is too shiny but this is the right kind of heavy and sunburnt raw. It feels like a drawn-out fight on one long too-hot afternoon. I find it hard to tell the songs apart but I get little sticky bitchy lines from them in my head all the time: "Here's a big fat aspirin, maybe you'll choke - that's not funny." "I don't like you any more than you know, I still like you too much." "I think your nose is broken, but you mouth is working." She's such a great writer and I think that gets kind of lost in the interpretations (hers too) of so much of her work as instinctive.

It's a shame this album seems to have slipped out of view, I feel like I never see Hersh talking about this time or any of these songs. I wonder if they are a snapshot of a period in her previous marriage she wouldn't want to go back to.

on a related note, her recent cover of "Like A Hurricane" totally rules

perfect description, verhexen!

also I mis-hear the chorus of “Pandora’s Box” as “milk-fed shithead” which is an insult I treasure; the real lines “your milk-fed shaved head / you move like an insect” are fantastic too

was Tanya Donelly's "The Party" ever released anywhere except the the Muses debut 7"? doesn't seem like it...

nope, nor adapted into anything else that I know of

A boy was tangled in his bike forever
A girl was missing two fingers
Gerry Ann was confused
Mr. Huberty had a gun in his head
So I sit up late in the morning and ask myself again
How do they kill children?
And why do I want to die?

written at age 18 iirc, just amazing

incredible song. love that album so much

all time opening couplet

"I could be a smack freak
and hate society
I could hate God
and blame dad"

Just an astounding song. The emotional power blows you away. Such an incredible band.

A shout out to Leslie Langston’s bass play on the early albums as well. Such melodic lines.

I think she's a senior social worker in MA these days!
Yep: https://medical.mit.edu/find-a-provider/leslie-langston
Extraordinary player, fully half the appeal of the Muses' early records to me.

That’s awesome.

I watched some of those YouTube videos where the video maker plays along with records on his bass, and the guy tackled a couple of early Muses songs. Ofc it was fun to hear the bassline brought out front, but also: iirc he freely admitted it was a bit puzzling and hard, and LL came along in the comment field going something like "hi! the reason that bit doesn't quite work is because you need to use the thumb from the top of the fretboard at the same time you see". This was couple of years ago or something?

Ha, that’s excellent. Just a natural, free-floating coolness to these guys.

In the mid 90s I interviewed them for a no-circulation music zine - in Australia - and when they toured they invited me and a friend to the band room after, gave us drinks and cigarettes, Bernie showed me how to open a bottle using another bottle … it was a blast and they were such nice folks. K was a bit reserved after delivering a huge show but I probably would have passed out if I’d talked to her.

Fun fact: I played "Hate My Way" for my family on or about Xmas day, from my phone. In boring moments we've developed a game where one nominates "the best song ever", choosing something fresh each time. This might have been the first time there were demands that such a selection be turned off lol.

jesus christ I told my same little fan boy story twice in the same thread, wow cool guy

I love K. Hersh pretty much across the board. Saw her a couple years ago with Bob Mould and she remains a compelling presence.

For Muses particularly, of course yes to University ("Bright Yellow Gun" already mentioned upthread) but for many persons of my age and class and temperament, there is an iconic scene in Empire Records set to the song "Snakeface." It is a memorable one.

all time opening couplet

"I could be a smack freak
and hate society
I could hate God
and blame dad"

the next song's opening line is right up there too.

"He won't ride in
Cars anymore
It reminds him of
Blowjobs"

xp I've also thought "Hate My Way" is the "best song ever" at times, but it's definitely something that would freak out normies.

I think Limbo is their best album after the debut. It's always been underrated coming after University, made worse by its absence from streaming due to being on Ryko. It has my favorite rhythm guitar tone ever-- shimmery, surfy, just perfect

My dad brought Limbo home to me from a work trip to Chicago (we lived in Norway) when I was 12, after an older cousin had bought University for my birthday the year before. Those records (as well as Doolittle, which the same cousin bought me for Xmas the same year) rewired my brain.

My college station played "Bright Yellow Gun" a few times in early '95 (approximately as much as they played Belly's "Seal My Fate"), but it's hard to tell what their profile was like. Was University a thing in alterna-music circles?

J. Sam otm re the guitars on Limbo. The solo on The Field, god yes.

Was University a thing in alterna-music circles?

It certainly was in the Boston area, lots of play on WFNX.

seems like it got a decent promotional push — makes sense since Belly and the Breeders had broken through to some extent. i saw a pretty under-attended show on the University tour though.

University came right after Belly/Breeders for me and was just what I needed. I vividly remember the big Rolling Stone story on Throwing Muses, with its, uh, provocative photos (that few magazines would dare to stage now).

I miss the all-consuming fervour I used to feel for this band

The go listen to their entire catalog in a row, it'll reignite it.

I found Red Heaven in a pawn shop and tried it because I knew there was some connection to Belly, who I was a big fan of. “Pearl” won me over big time.

It's a great song. I recommend their 2003 self-title for more of that giant-wave vibe.

Limbo is the last one that I spent time with, but I don't remember a lot of it. University was the big one for me, and the first one. I had a shirt with a bright yellow gun on it which I probably wouldn't wear today.

Saw Kristin and Vic Chesnutt in Atlanta. If I remember right, they both had acoustic guitars and would go back and forth, trading songs. Very, very good.

I had the same shirt and thoughtlessly put it on a few days after the Port Arthur gun massacre (which was near my city). Had to retreat into a bathroom and flip it inside out when I realised the looks were not from Throwing Muses fans.

So I sit up late in the morning
And ask myself again
How do they kill children?
And why do I wanna die?
They can no longer move
I can no longer be still

^chills down the spine at that part

am down with a Throwing Muses listening thread

yes please

I don't know if the "Mr. Huberty" reference in "Hate My Way" is common knowledge (I only learned about it a few years ago), but he's the man responsible for a 1984 mass shooting at a McDonald's in California:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
This song still rattles me every time I listen to it, after 30+ years...

Matt I think I was at that 94 show too - there was merch that I recall was a tomato or apple on the front of the tshirt? And I was mad I couldnt buy one cos I hadn't brought any extra money with me (which seems bonkers but in those days I didnt drink).

I also have the red bright yello gun tshirt ha.

hi guys, this revive made me dig out my old external drive so i could hear limbo again. thank you for the discussion and reminder of this masterpiece! it's such a monolithic album of 90s indie-ness and every goddamn song is arranged so incredibly perfect. it rocks out, it does ballads, classic jangly chamber pop, and a whole lot of heart. the way a lot of the songs just drop and change direction is so disorienting and exhilarating —— i could kiss you for remembering my address for crying out loud. i know i talk a big mess about the first album being kristin's definitive statement (and i probably will ride with that in the end); but if that album was unrefined, unfiltered, unadulterated chaotic kristin, limbo is all of those things polished over and made to be the best versions of themselves. i used to ride hard for "tar kissers" and swore up and down that was the pinnacle of this era. but listening now, i have at least 5 tracks that i could see saying the same exact thing about (and none of them are "tar kissers" — though that one still smashes). i was wanting to pick a song to put on my radio station playlist, but i can't narrow it down further than half of the damn album! is limbo her best work? dunno, but it sounds better than ever.

(and it has one of the prettiest/best hidden tracks ever with "white bikini sand")

i had some extras saved on that drive and i wanted to play you guys the demo of "serene" (retitled here "serene swing") so i had to upload it to youtube—
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94BhagMCP4

i guess if forced to pick a single favorite track right now, it's definitely "serene." the original album version is pretty nice chamber pop and one of the album's calmest moments. "serene swing" though — !!?!?! clattering and just the complete opposite of everything about the finished version. really dig the crazy horse vibes. this fucking woman. what an absolute titan.

i have not the language to convey what i'm saying here so i'm just going to spit—

that transition from "shark" to "white bikini sand" just has something so entirely period specific to it. like there's certain media or technology that we sometimes say, "well that could have only worked in the (time period)." and i think about that transition "shark" is ultimately a rewarding song, but it's noisy, kind of dissonant. it ends on a long fadeout, an unsure coda. then "white bikini sand" comes in and is nothing but steady pleasant vibes. and it works so perfectly that the only cliche i can come up with is that it only would worked in the 90s.

I love Limbo too, it hit hard after a run of slightly diminishing, more cluttered albums and they came back ripped and focused as a trio. Everything about this record is a reinvention, down to the artwork, and I fell in love with them all over. Favourite is probably the title track, so apocalyptic and off-kilter, but it's ALL gold. Also loved the fast version of Teller they played on the tour.

slightly disappointed that, of all the times i've seen kristin in all of her various roles, they've never played anything from limbo.

Ignore my stupidity, of course University was a trio album as well, but Limbo was much gnarlier and more muscular.

def feels like a lost album these days (so does the kind of contemporaneous bob mould self titled album on ryko)

also hi again, sorry for tangent--

if you like the more orchestrated, multi-parted beach boys-esque turns mid song, and more of kristin's wry, yowling narratives and you've never dug into her albums sky motel and sunny border blue, do yourself a favor and visit/revisit. it's almost like an epic spiritual trilogy in hindsight -- that was basically her trajectory from 96-02: limbo-> sky motel-> sunny border blue. each album gets a bit more reflective and rootsy until sunny border blue contains a few songs about her old band and ends with pure catharsis on "listerine." gives me chills just thinking about it. anyway, yeah: those albums maybe don't ROCK as hard, but are definitely part of the same universe as limbo. highly recommended.

jeez she has a new album and I didn't even know

(Clear Pond Road released on May 30th)

New Music Announced

The new Throwing Muses record “Moonlight Concessions” is done, teaser single coming soon. Thank you Strange Angel listener supporters for helping us stay musically idealistic in an industry that prefers vanity and product. It’s everything to us. pic.twitter.com/I8x5frTyro

— Throwing Muses (@throwingmuses) October 23, 2024

listening now. it's good and comforting to hear her. "albatross" is great.

this is good but I don't know how this isn't just a Hersh solo album; is David even on it?

yeah, it definitely feels like more of her album, but muses are touring so idk if dave is still on board. info is sparse.

but again: regardless of what name she's using, the album is good.

Seing them (or is it only her?) in Oslo in two weeks.

The guitar tone in The Field is the greatest ever.

Per a Reddit thread, the current tour is Hersh, Pete on cello, her son Dylan on bass and Fred Abong on drums. They sound pretty flat in the performances I saw on YouTube. Not sure if I’d want to go tbh.

I am so glad you posted this - they're playing in Glasgow tonight and I only found out about 30 mins ago and I was feeling really annoyed I had completely missed any news about it

wait David isn't drumming any more?!?

Not on the new album or apparently this tour, at least.

gah

I like the new album and very much enjoy her bluesky posting but I LOVE his drumming

am seeing them a week today, hopefully youtube isn't doing them justice

It’s really been bugging me. Dave has been in Throwing Muses since 1983. When there were two of them it was just Dave and Kristin, even Leslie was credited as a guest on Red Heaven. When the Muses coexisted with Fifty Foot Wave the only difference was Dave vs Rob Ahlers. I would never pretend he’s a creative force on par with KH, but god dammit no Dave no Muses. It’s a KH touring band, same as the last TM record is a KH record. I know better than to judge when I don’t know the situation it it feels like it lacks integrity after all these years.

*but it

I think Dave's pretty wrapped up in his graphic design business these days. Last saw him in April after his dad, who was a popular coach and guidance counselor at the high school I went to, passed away.

big sigh. i like dave's style a lot (percussive+graphic). glad i got to see the kristin/dave/barney trio a couple times. i remember kristin posting a lot on her blog around the time of the 2003 4ad album. she would make a lot of seemingly insignificant, but kind of snarky references, to dave. "37 hours" from her sunny border blue album is about him. i've always gotten the impression that he's a fairly private person and, especially in later years, required some coaxing to continue touring.

all of this aside, her songwriting chops have not wavered at all over the years. it's kind of a weird dynamic that the records continue to be good, but the legacy of the band and who's involved in what is getting sticky. unfortunately.

do more than 2-3 songs on the new album even have drums?

ach, yeah, I should not have said anything when I didn’t know anything

I have a soft spot for Dave because when the Australian label offered phoners to promote University, I got to talk to him for an hour - he blew off the next interview and patiently told me all about the early days. And then when I flew to see them on the tour I spotted him and said hello, whereupon he invited me and my friend backstage and shared the rider. Sorry - I’m sure I have already told this story here.

3 July 2019, as Zing kindly placed my previous telling at the top of the last 100 posts on this thread.

I mean really it isn't Throwing Muses without Tanya Donnelly or Leslie Langston either but that ship has kinda sailed. This is like fourth-era Throwing Muses I guess.

I certainly wouldn't NOT see this Muses lineup because there's no David playing, and at least Fred is 'in the family'. The names Hersh decides to put on her projects have become somewhat mysterious to me now; Possible Dust Clouds sounds more like a Muses album than the new one, for instance. there was a point where she said economic conditions kind of dictated this; if an album / tour was a Muses thing, it might make more money but it was also a lot more expensive to tour because she was committed to paying David and whoever played bass more money as well.

I'd still go to this because she will play Bright Yellow Gun while playing a show as Muses, despite who is in the band; but she wont' do that as 50 Ft. Wave or solo (probably).

I have a soft spot for Dave because when the Australian label offered phoners to promote University, I got to talk to him for an hour - he blew off the next interview and patiently told me all about the early days.

!!!! so jellllllllllll

Anyway I came here for the same reason, I was looking up deets of the new tour and was like "wtf is that Doony (her son) on bass? Whats going on where's Dave" and apparently I am not the only one. But then again, I've been aware she plays everything herself for some time now, guitar/bass/drums the lot. So I guess it is sensible. People who had to get f/t careers outside of music cant really just drop everything for a long tour.

I got to see them in 93 - according to Wiki Bernard was the bass player by that point so I guess I never got to see the OG lineup, despite feeling like I recall otherwise. I got a GREAT photo from the 93 gig though, of Kris in that classic "I am not here" stare.

Hopefully this'll work
https://i.imgur.com/rcfjhfp.jpeg

LOl apparently i'd posted this pic in this thread before (but the links broken so hey)

awesome, thanks

I remember that stare! I think I saw them at the Corner Hotel on that tour.

I just found that I have the 11 page transcript of the Dave Narcizo interview sitting in a folder, if anyone was interested - I don't know where one would upload such a thing without shovelling it into an AI slop bucket.

jeez I'd love to read it, idk just a dropbox link?

I squished it down a bit format-wise - will see what I can do.

No idea how to protect the link from crawlers, but que sera sera I guess. Thanks for the interest! https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/k1t1d5ziioeeb2899s9z5/David-Narcizo-interview-1995.pdf?rlkey=wonc2o113lsx5rwofdszf9ill&st=hudyp3ow&dl=0

thank u!

ditto!
PS yes that photo was taken at the Corner :)

That was a fab interview Matt, thanks for sharing it x

:)

(intro is a bit goofy but hey, it was 30 years ago)

I'd still go to this because she will play Bright Yellow Gun while playing a show as Muses, despite who is in the band; but she wont' do that as 50 Ft. Wave or solo (probably).

― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 30 May 2025 15:42 bookmarkflaglink

fwiw I saw her solo a few years ago and she did in fact play Bright Yellow Gun