Why do white people criticize one another for being white?

I'm reminded of the Larry Sanders episode where Jon Stewart is the guest host for the show and he arranges for the Wu-Tang Clan to appear. Hank Kingsley (the show's Ed McMahaon -- essentially a dorky Dr. Phil, if you haven't seen it) wants to be down with the Wu-Tang, so he arranges for his assistant to get him Wu-Tang Forever. He approahces the RZA and tells him, "I love your work. Especially 'Shame on the Nigga.'" The RZA acts offended, and Hank tries to fix the situation by awkwardly raising the roof. Jon Stewart steps in and says, "I'd like to apologize on the behalf of my entire race."

Interestingly, you never see this with regard to country music or heavy metal music - "dude, that music is too white!"

and like two more things in the same vein.

In nearly every instance "whiteboy" seemed like a useful term since what it rilly means is "awkward gangly indie-kid" and such people really do exist -- and in no case was "white-boy" enough to dis something but only used to *describe* it (since like half the time the object in question was praised).

Nabisco I therefore conclude that you've successfully manufactured a very stupid strawman.

i do love that the most common criticism of ilm is how "white" it is by...wait for it...white guys. the ironing is delicious. (not saying "dead disnee" is necessarily white, but...)
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), September 26th, 2002.
i mean, no offence, but just because this place is overrun with corny indie motherfuckers these days doesn't mean that there aren't/weren't people who were knowledgable about hip-hop here, many of them white as fuck
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), March 4th, 2003.
i stand by problem is you're just sad and bloated/like tales from hiphopographic oceans.
(guilty...of being...white...)
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), March 28th, 2002.
well, if you're white as fuck maybe
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), February 7th, 2003.
haha yeah, too many fat, white brits before for my taste!!
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), September 23rd, 2002.
i was at a wu tang show once and they didn't show up for almost 2 hours! let me tell you, i've never seen such indignant white people in my life.
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), May 29th, 2002.
i have terminal white-boy guilt re. house derived from moodyman and all that afro-house! (er...)
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), October 1st, 2002.

You don't? Really?

actually no, it's more to do with class obsessed, uh 'over-graciousness' IYW.

CLARITY

(s)elf-hatred = legolas' railslide (25 stairs dawg!)

My only issue with it is that, as a classification-word that is race/ethnic specific, it reinforces certain stereotypes that in many cases aren't true (white people's supposed lack of rhythm, fr'instance), and one thing I'm not down with is any attempted limiting of what people supposedly should and shouldn't be able to do because of the amounts of melanin in the skin cells, whether it's people saying white people shouldn't rap or black people shouldn't sing oprah. <- (I'm going to leave this typo in 'cause it is just too cool.)

Granted, it seems that in Jamaica that I get guff for being "so white" all the time. E.g. this Rasta dude who's known as Manifest told me "It looks like you'd rather call me by my Christian name--so feel free to call me Christopher." He also laughs and has commented about my at my oh-so white was of waving goodbye as opposed to punching fists. When you're summoned by "hey white girl" or "hey whitey" at least once a day or so, you sorta start to get used to the fact that everything you do will be catagorized as "white."

Class, however, is THE issue here.

I think the question is racist. Not in a nasty way, but because it unfairly groups together a whole load of dissimilar people based on the colour of their skin.

I think the 'white people' you're talking about are really only a certain age range of white male Americans.

I suppose technically I'm white, but really Nabisco I think you have more in common with the 'white people' you're talking about than I do.

I can think, off the top of my head, of two recent posts by white, female IL* members that contradict this statement.

A real answer to N.'s topic question would require an essay, if not a book, but here are my thoughts on one facet of the topic -- and let me emphasize the "one facet" in that, as I think there's a whole lot to this issue:

We live in a culture in which, over the last 100-150 years, there has been -- at least in mainstream media discourse -- a significant shift away from what might be called "community-oriented" values. Like most things in history, it could be argued that this shift both represents a reaction against a genuinely problematic status quo, and constitutes an overreaction to it (who was it that said, quite astutely, that every new development in philosophy tends to be an overcompensation for the previous one?). The fallout from this is extensive and far beyond my scope or ability to describe, but some aspects are obvious (greater respect for personal liberties, for instance, or a tendency towards the atomization of human relationships), some less so (anti-intellectualism, materialism, the alienation of most Westerners from their cultural history in the belief that it "all leads to Auschwitz").

In any event, such an environment tends to afford maximal prestige to those who take on -- or, and this is key, are perceived as taking on -- the role of the "badass". I don't really have time to go into the details of this figure, but here's an effective synopsis: "The badass is someone who cultivates an image of being supremely wicked, mean and violent [and] seeks to use violence (and related patterns) in a quintessentially irrational fashion...Yet the badass does have a deeper purpose: He gains considerable power over other people by getting them to perceive him as irrationally violent. A badass is recognized as capable of turning wildly, senselessly violent for no apparent or predictable reason, and so everyone else has to be extra careful around him." (That's from a book by Roy Baumeister.)

I trust I don't need to laboriously lay out the argument I'm making here: that mainstream media culture consistently chooses to propagate images of the badass, that it strongly implies that such men (and they are just about always portrayed as male) are to be feared and respected (i.e. are powerful), and that it strongly suggests that most badasses come from economic or racial crucibles that form them into hardened, dangerous men. This lens, as it were, has been one through which men of many ethnicities and cultures have been depicted -- the Irish and the Italians come to mind -- and it is, obviously, a lens frequently chosen, by a wide range of sources (anyone from hiphop MCs to the nightly news), through which to depict the lives of young, black men. (I assume I don't need to talk about how toxic and damaging this is.)

To most people, the badass is both deeply frightening and oddly fascinating, and when you combine that with the prejudice already felt by many about Africans and African-Americans, you get an image that to many people is quite potent, for it simultaneously represents the feared Evil Other and a vicarious outlet for the destructive impulses of one's "negative self". When people are confronted with someone (or images of many, archetypal someones) that powerful and pervasive, there are a few typical reactions: hatred, chronic anxiety (or, more optimistically, the insight that the image is a fabricated archetype, which empowers one to begin to cast it aside). But there's always going to be a significant portion of those people who choose to identify with the aggressor, in part because that eases their anxiety and permits them the belief that they will be somehow spared. (The corollary to this is, naturally, to devalue the victims of the aggressor; by rationalizing their fate, and ascribing it to some flaw or failure on their parts, a person convinces himself or herself that he/she is "not like them", and is, in fact, superior.)

This behavior manifests itself with far greater specificity when you're dealing with the dynamic between individuals (and if you doubt that, or any of this, try working in an office with a powerful, dysfunctional boss, someone who punishes indiscriminately and irrationally, and you'll see these behaviors in action). But when you're dealing with individuals for whom the anxiety-provoking figure is a nonspecific archetype, then -- since it's obviously impossible to specifically negotiate with someone who isn't present -- the negotiation happens in generalities: people from outside the milieu of the figure begin to identify with it, and despite the fact that they come from a totally different culture (or race, or socioeconomic background), begin to adopt the mannerisms and behavior of the archetype, or at least their own mythologized version of it. And naturally, they're inclined to devalue their own antecedents, in part as a way of hiding them, in part because they've adopted a value-system of power and aggression in which those, often community- and childhood-oriented, antecedents are considered valueless or worse.

The figure of the badass has piggybacked onto Italian culture with some success, and a bit with the Irish though not nearly as successfully (in the States at least). But the nearly unprecedented, worldwide, multi-wave explosion of African-American culture (especially music) has, I think, been a major force behind the massive propagation of this stereotyping of young black men. Certainly, it's been something that many black artists have been more than willing to exploit -- it's all over early blues -- and, in turn, artists from other cultures have been more than willing to co-opt it for themselves. But in any event, the dominance of black musical culture in the latter part of the 20th Century, and in the 21st so far, has meant (obviously in conjunction with racism and race relations, media sensationalism) that the dominant image of the badass has been African-American, and that the badass (whether African-American or not) has been celebrated (while at the same time feared) to an extent seldom, if ever, seen in any culture before.

And rather than drag this argument to the conclusion that I assume should be obvious by now -- or take the time to stitch in any of the other threads that need to be in here, like the fetishization of the Other and so forth -- I'll instead recount a conversation between three jazz students that a friend of mine overheard a couple years ago -- or what I can reconstruct of it (thirdhand!), anyway:

1) White male: ...and yeah, but I was like, that shit was so white, you know?
2) White male #2: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean --
3) Black male (slightly older): No, no, don't say that, don't say that.
1) and 2) What?
3) Man, I wish you hadn't said that.
1) What?
3) About being "white". When you say that, it makes me think, you know...well, to be honest, it makes me think that, when you look at me, you see a "black man", rather than me, as a person. I mean, I know what you meant, I'm not angry or anything...
1) or 2) Oh, listen, I'm sorry --
3) No, no, just, you know, have some respect. Not just for me, but for yourselves. I mean, you're white, and I'm black, and we're going to stay that way, right? But so what? I'm not embarrassed by my color, so why should you be, or talk about it like it's something bad? What matters is what you have to say, as a musician and as a person.

Nabisco I therefore conclude that you've successfully manufactured a very stupid strawman.

You will have a hard time convincing me that there's not at least a strong undercurrent of white vs. black in a statement like this, referring to "pasty losers" vs. "survivors" (as though there aren't SHITLOADS of black foax who, like, live in their parents' basement until they're 29, making bad beats!).

To me Indie vs Hip Hop is pasty losers who spend too much time on line vs survivors who know what the real world is. Guess who I'll take.

-- That Girl (d**********@yahoo.com), March 27th, 2003 1:43 AM. (thatgirl)

How often does this happen outside of music? I think the generally accepted idea that black music is more innovative and exciting then white music has a something to do with it.

Who cares? Why do black people talk back to the screen at movies?

In other words "white" is a fine term becuz it means something real and pretending it doesn't is like pretending that "black" means nothing and racism vanished with the civil rights movement.

It's not being white so much as *acting* in a "white" way which of course is something determined by context etc. Blackpeopleloveus.com to thread.

Also That Girl's comment makes plenty of sense when you consider that hip-hop songs are *about* surving and indie songs are *about* being losers v. often -- so which do you want to identify more with? On the other hand compare/contrast another typically "black" genre like classic jazz and fewer people will say its about "surviving" and then you can be like jazz v. buttrock fite and get an answer like "one is cerebral wanking and the other is about having a good time -- hmm which do i pick?"

How many media references to 50 Cent are about his record as opposed to his life and history and sales and pronouncements? The ratio is poor, which really means that everyone is reviewing, basically, his "blackness." Which is exactly what he's trading in...as is Eminem, really, too--8 Mile is an entire treatise on Rabbit's/Eminem's black-credentials, and the reason he's the coolest guy in America has at least something to do with the fact that he is a successful Euro-American in a field that is dominated by African-Americans (cue Presley, G.Michael's solo career, the Dallas Mavericks)--and what we are buying, too.

But we want to be 'better' than that, less sucked-in, more objective, harder-edged than the other suckers out there--so we want to question the critical status quo that will intensely question/analyze/mention most of the tracks on the Malkmus record, but basically ignore Killer Mike's and Lil Kim's and Bryan McKnight's music in favor of recounting their history or their famous friends or their fashion sense. So we throw around terms like 'white' with impunity because it's "not supposed to be done". Isn't that something like that?

Cynical, clear-eyed Neudonym asks: Don't we do it because we kind of like to be assholes?

And I'm sure somebody's going to say 'yeah well not all big bands were black, look at Ellington he was successful yada yada' but I think it's pretty much undeniable that a lot of black music in the 20th century was introduced to a wider audience in a form that was often quite distanced from the idiom it was supposed to represent.

As for why we still do it, I'm going to go with force of habit.

I am white, but not the 'white' of the thread title.

I never think of myself as white though, or black, or any other colour.

I don't think I'm particularly similar to all the other people who have approximately the same skin colour as me.

I'd prefer to align myself with, say, all the other music lovers, or all those people who prefer cats to dogs. At least those groupings would tell you something about the way I think/feel/behave/value.

Some may look at me and think, "Ok, she's obviously got some street cred to her. She could blend in with a hip-hop and R&B loving crowd and wouldn't look totally out of place at a rap show." But you know what? I would feel utterly and completely lost in those sorts of places. I have no inner street cred to speak of. The homeys in the ghetto wouldn't exactly be down with me listening to Scritti Politti. I'm so out of this particular circle that I don't even know if that last sentence makes me sound like an even "whiter" person. I am essentially the Steve Martin character in the movie Bringing Down the House.

Point being, it could very well be possible to consider oneself unhip and totally not down with "it" (whatever "it" is) no matter what one's outward appearances may be. So if you have porcelain white skin and fine facial features, don't think that automatically makes you unhip or not "clued in" to the ways of the street, because I know for damn sure my OWN olive skin and big lips and Roman nose could not even BEGIN to give me an instant ticket to the World of the Ethnic Cool.

I get told I´m a fake Puertorican all the time, just ´cuz I´m white.

I think we are at at the ass-end of identity politcs in this country.

It is six years later, we have a black president in the USA (since this thread is US-oriented). Do you think we have made significant progress in that time WRT stereotypes about music consumers?

http://thehurstreview.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/fleet-foxes-lp.jpg

Is this "too white" thing just about bad marketing and careless reporting?

oh good

bacon

Are you asking whether black people have started going to Roots shows?

The truth about this is ineffable, yet you effers keep effing.

i was one of those people in high school & some of college who described things, pejoratively, as 'white' (i had a radio show called 'renegades of funk' LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL)... anyway my self-loathing cycle arrived and i did this complete 180 a few years ago and now privilege and prize music that i once would have disparagingly called 'white' (i.e. dadrock, balearic, & in particular the intersection btw the two) (im not sure that my reason for doing this reversal is, um, 'racial' in nature; i mean, i wasnt checking out hall & oates instead of mos def because i had gone stormfront--though i think there was a certain kind of racial discomfort i began to feel abt my position w/r/t rap music & maybe my shift toward the dadrockearic axis was a desire to return to a less fraught place)

anyway i now listen to i guess "white boy" music (incl. even some indie bands!!!!!! who are of course the 'whitest' of the 'white') but id never think of calling it 'white' approvingly. not really shocking, obviously, since its sort of troubling to be going around using 'white' as a compliment. i guess i just wanted to share.

Results 1 - 10 of about 518,000 for "too white".

Results 1 - 10 of about 3,020,000 for "bottle opener".

i guess i only use "white" to describe music or a performance that is going for a style rooted in black or latin culture, but missing the mark (no matter the ethnicity of the performers).

xxxpost hall & oates are pretty funky white boys tho

i'm white btw
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/original/15_sasha_lgl.jpg

http://www.google.com/search?q=white+bottle+opener&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

According to the Hall and Oates biography, Hall upon learning that "I Can't Go For That" had gone to Number One on the R and B chart, wrote in his diary,"I'm the head soul brother in the US. Where to now?"

white people are the worst

i would love to read the rest of that diary

"i guess i only use "white" to describe music or a performance that is going for a style rooted in black or latin culture, but missing the mark (no matter the ethnicity of the performers).

― meat of beef (Jordan)"

how long was this thread before someone finally stepped in with the easy common sense answer to the question?

white people post like this

http://www.ussteel.com/corp/images/logo_top.jpg

hmmm interesting question nabisco... *thoughtfully strokes neckbeard*

yeah it's almost like white people have no pride

i say more power to them

one might say we need a new stormfront of self-worth

i think white people just need to "master" race as it were

white people need a final solution to this question.

too far

what's it like to be white?

maybe that question needs a new thread

*thoughtfully strokes neckbeard*

― the most brazen explosion of clitoral lust in folk-metal history (cankles), Monday, March 30, 2009 6:27 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark

watch out for them pop tart crumbs

btw u are very white

hush, cracker

ritz, cracker

my coke-rap name is gram cracka

bernard snowy's not a bad one either.

in response to Max's post (before all the one-liners): Are indie bands the "whitest of the white"? There are plenty of genres that are whiter, or at least as white, based on racial makeup of audiences and musicians: country, metal, avant-garde classical, noise, prog, goth. Is the "white guilt" more prominent in indie because it's somewhat the dominant genre for educated white people, "white guilt" being found less in working class white people? I'm a white person that listens to white music, and I don't feel guilty about it or feel the need to criticize the whiteness of the music or scenes surrounding the music I like.

I was discussing this awhile back with a friend whose former band made Chunklet's list of "whitest bands." I think there are multiple types of music that get coded as "white." There's the mopey "we are losers" introspective indie whiteness, a similar, perhaps undeserving "angst" that also marks emo as "white," which is different from the analytical "nerdiness" of prog, noise and avant-garde that is also coded as white. One could connect both types of whiteness as lacking in the working-class masculinity (the badassness mentioned in one of the earlier posts on this thread). However, if one's music is more marginal, I think a white person that's into it naturally feels less guilty about it being white, because most white people aren't into it either.

metal and goth are ASSUREDLY not whiter than indie rock when it comes to "racial makeup of audiences and musicians"

That was mighty white of you, whiney.

"You Make Me Feel (Mighty White)"

"I'm a white person that listens to white music, and I don't feel guilty about it or feel the need to criticize the whiteness of the music or scenes surrounding the music I like."

rock n roll is black music, fwiw.

oh boy

xp Whiney: I think it depends on what type of metal and what bands, etc.

A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

xpost

I mean, I think pretty much any metal outside of (ironically enough) black metal is more racially diverse than indie rock. But we're splitting hairs here.

hmmm i wonder if "white" might mean different things in different contexts..........................

...................................................................

xp: Whiney on rock music - And I think that could be part of the "guilt" factor - that it's something white people have appropriated.

I've never really felt any need to use the "word" white as a qualifier for music, because for me the word "unfunky" has pretty much the same meaning, without getting into dodgy racial essentialism. It's much easier to say "white musicians can be funky" or "black musicians can be unfunky" than "white musicians can be black" or "black musicians can be white". Of course, if you're talking about the demographics of particular music subculture rather than the content of the music, then it makes more sense to use words like "black" or "white".

The bigger truth bomb though, sarahel: upwardly mobile 20-/30-something liberal, college-educated, self-aware whites who listen to indie rock and have "opinions" on shit like Stuff White People Like Dot Com and Vampire Weekend are more likely to post snarky bullshit on message boards that you and me and u_s steel read.

what's a soundtrack for a post racial world?
i'm thinking doobie bros.

elephant orchestras

racist!

I heard a Vampire Weekend song once. It was nice, not my thing. I think my 24 year old cousin might like them.

wait guys i thought MIA was the soundtrack for a post racial world did i miss something

a post post post

I mean, I think pretty much any metal outside of (ironically enough) black metal is more racially diverse than indie rock. But we're splitting hairs here.

I was about to make a joke about DNA-ancestry tests on every scene: what if the Latino part of the metal fanbase is largely Iberian? Then all your 100% South- or East-Asian indie rockers may sweep up to win the Nobel Prize for Music Not Being "White."

wait guys i thought MIA was the soundtrack for a post racial world did i miss something

you let her brown skin fool you ;_;

^^ that is a pointless joke, BTW -- I think I admitted years ago that I am mostly (and hopefully non-dickishly) just amused by this whole realm of conversation, hence starting the thread

lol, xpost?

haha yes, obv

one thing that i always found "funny" was moving between ILM-world and college-world and seeing the different meanings white gets inflected with--"unfunky/safe" vs. "arrogant/oblivious"

still don't hear "dave eggers is too white for me" there's still a backlash against trendiness but white guilt never gets much play outside of music.

^^ white guilt gets a lot of play on college campuses.

Your life is white
And I dont think I like
You hanging around

white guilt vs. gay dad

dad guilt

it's almost like people feel guilty...guilty of being white

one thing that i always found "funny" was moving between ILM-world and college-world and seeing the different meanings white gets inflected with--"unfunky/safe" vs. "arrogant/oblivious"

Is that still going on? Given how much college costs these days, perhaps so.

(I'm old, I have no idea...)

There is no such thing as White Music. Or, that is, there wouldn't have been had it not been for this album:
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/dc/fc/2b94124128a073a0d6a56010.L.jpg

Geir, you're so white

you probably think this thread is about you

*high five*

I like to think that the character of "gangsta andy partridge" was an in-depth satire on the subject of race relations in musical experiences and knowledge.

But seriously, "nigga i pop a cap in yo fat finnish azz".

You do it all the time, and I post this to ILM and not ILE because it usually comes rolling out with regard to music: around here "white-boy _____" gets used to write off as much music as any other pejorative.

who was intended by 'you' above? I've never done it. some tossers might do it. I wouldn't write to black people 'you do xyz all the time'.

Isn't that you fetishize suffering as the true source of deep feeling, and consequently fetishize the self-expression of people who are expected to have suffered -- namely, black people and the working class?
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 28 March 2003

lots of people suffer, in lots of ways, alas. personally I don't fetishize those particular sufferings at all, no. do you?

EVERYBODY MUST PAY.

white music? synesthesia alert!

personally I don't fetishize those particular sufferings at all, no. do you?

Guy I know was criticizing Rachel Getting Married recently on the basis that their house is too awesome for their problems to be worth caring about.

http://maxgif.com/152

lol

A+ thread revive singlehandedly turned my shitty day around. Your bouquet of roses is in the mail

(the gif did, I mean. Fuck whatever people were saying in this thread, probably)

(the gif did, I mean. Fuck whatever people were saying in this thread, probably)

lol yeah the white guy who started this thread, what was he thinking

I've not read anyone describe anything as "white boy" music in many years. Probably as I stopped going on NOTBBC as it was fucking terrible

you haven't read ilx in years i assume too?

"the white guy who started this thread" ugh what a strawman (xpost to aero)

"self-aware whites who listen to indie rock and have "opinions" on shit like Stuff White..."

Self-regarding is a better description for this than self-aware. Its a backhanded compliment to say that white people are always in on the joke when they're being satirized. Apparently nothing gets past self aware white people with their irony and sense of the ridic.

ilx: i've never seen such indignant white people in all my life.

whites are a beastly race

http://i.imgur.com/VZ2lr.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/VZ2lr.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/VZ2lr.gif

please tell me she's not dancing to "pony"

whites are a beastly race

― the late great, Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:49 AM (11 hours ago)

the most inept flayers of beasts and scorchers of grass

O weird. when I followed that first link to the bristol gif earlier, my phone didn't display the flashing "WHITE PPL" text, I swear! I was just laffing at her face

(... and at the idea that someone would see a bristol palin animated gif and immediately think of this thread)

All you middle-class white assholes always pull this shit. (I'm a working-class white asshole, so it's okay for me to say this)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, March 28, 2003 12:39 PM (9 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Kinda wonder whether Y. would still describe himself that way.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04vogFRgWNeUw/576x.jpg

uh, holy shit. how did i not know that one of our own cofounded kickstarter?

ilx: i've never seen such indignant white people in all my life.

gonna be at my desk cracking up all day and am not gonna be able to explain why

I prefer the term "caucasian" for "race". White has cultural connotations. Some day really soon it's going to seem like a stupid term.

it really doesnt but people try to make it that way

rewind, rewrite -- obv it has 'cultural connotations' b/c thats all it is, but the way its typically used in these convos is coded for 'middle class'

lol @ suggestion that "caucasian" does not have cultural connotations

The term "Caucasian race" was coined by the German philosopher Christoph Meiners in his The Outline of History of Mankind (1785).[4] In Meiners' unique racial classification, there were only two racial divisions (Racen): Caucasians ("white and beautiful") and Mongolians ("brown and ugly"). These terms were used as a collective representative of what Meiners personally regarded as good looking and far less attractive, based solely on the appearance of the skin of the face, for example the Germans and the Tartars he considered Caucasian, and the best looking, while Jews, Slavs and Native Americans as Mongolian, and ugly in the face.

like let's not pretend these nomenclatures are based on science or logic or anything, because they aren't

so ugly

in the face

Sure, "Mongoloid" and "Negroid" sounds terrible today, but at least it relates to geography and not skin color. What do you suggest (instead of "white" or "Caucasian")?

what

haven't really read this thread, but seeing the title today has got this song stuck in my head all morning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfbVN48TdUM

The "Caucasian race" was grafted by the evil scientist Dr. Yakub in his secret cave laboratory in the Caucus Mountains.[4] In Clarence 13Xs' unique racial classification, there were only two racial divisions (Racen): white devils ("white man") and the original man ("black man"). These terms were used as a collective representative of what 13x personally regarded as politricks, based solely on the 85 percent's lack of overstanding and inability to study their lessons, despite the 5 percent nation of gods and earths' efforts to educate.

― retro-shittified (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:52 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fixed

hahaha

lol

Sure, "Mongoloid" and "Negroid" sounds terrible today, but at least it relates to geography and not skin color.

not really - it's totally arbitrary (Tartars are Caucasian but Slavs are not even though both are from the same region in Europe. Why? because Slavs are ugly in the face of course)

Tatars were from Mongolia originally, just to make it funnier

well yeah as with any of these terms, how far back do you wanna go...

there is some use - for historians at any rate - in talking about cultural identities, migration and settlement. the problem is that a lot of pre-20th century thinking about these things garbled it up with race mentalism and measuring skulls etc etc

I would never identify as "caucasian" and hate when forms require me to do so--it's amazing to me that such a stupid, pseudoscientific notion can have such a long half-life. "White" is dumb because A.) i'm pinkish-yellow B.) The notion of one unified 'white (european) race' was fabricated in the 17th century as legal justification for denying rights to 'non-whites', so.

"Anglo" is okay w/ me because I think of it as more of a linguistic thing. I am uncomfortable when latino coworkers use "negro" but have not told them to stop and can't really imagine doing so. I don't particularly care for "gringo" but am good-humored about it.

Anything else?

i probably just put white, it's been awhile.

or caucasian. i do as i'm told

I'm a Jew, nobody can agree what we are

i mark 'other' and write in 'fabulous'

forms asking you to specify race are already hopelessly outdated, I expect them to disappear entirely within my lifetime

then just write "pinkish-yellow"
obviously having to identify a race on a form is stupid but I can only remember like, three times when I've had to do this

complaining about using the term "white" because it's dumb strikes me as weird ; the terms are obviously stupid and not really accurate but that's not really the point of them is it?

actually that is totally the point of them

step away from the race thread xp

"I expect them to disappear entirely within my lifetime"

you're gonna live 300 years?

since they're very rarely actually white, i move we refer to them as wites

actually that is totally the point of them

the point of them is to be intelligent terms that accurately describe a person's color?

step away from the race thread xp

hey there's this new "flag post" feature, you can just hit that button instead of playing thread police, it's really neat

no I meant the point was that they are stupid and not really accurate and are used specifically to facilitate stupid/inaccurate generalizations

Ehhhh, that just leads to a bunch of "colorblind racism" bullshit.

I am uncomfortable when latino coworkers use "negro"

This reminds me of a funny story my dad told me about his coworker, a black man, who is married to a woman from Costa Rica. When they visit his wife's family in the old country, they all call him "negro" as an affectionate term. They mean no offense by this and he is fine with it. This was all fine and dandy until his wife's fam visited him up here and he had to shut them down like "no, you can't call me that here".

"Leave us out of this!"

http://www.labonita1067.com/site/media/k2/items/cache/8da476f72f06a276b1f930cdb28c21f1_XL.jpg

Can we get "Tumblr White" added as an option on government forms?

"Black is black" is a timeless song!!

the answer to this thread title is really simple. most american white people are totally lame and uncool. that's why smart cool white people from small towns move as fast as they can to new york. that's why cool jazz musicians have to make a living playing music in sweden. sweden! i'm sure they would rather play gigs in ohio if they could get paid well for it. but ohio is lame and doesn't appreciate post-bop AT ALL. european white people are cooler. the smart arty ones anyway. they still have a child-like sense of wonder. and they dress better. and they eat better cheese. this country was founded by and filled with racist lunatic bores. i think we can all agree on that. i'm not saying that european white people - even the arty ones - aren't just as racist in their way as american white people, but the european white people at least make some killer motherfucking shoes. like, amazing footwear, in general.

amen

Wow, that's not how I see this country at all. I don't expect Cleveland to have a big turnout for post-bop concerts and I'm not gonna make a bunch of accusations about it because it doesn't.

canadians are pretty chill. as far as white people go. they have a certain dull grace that i find pleasing. and just so you know, i'm nice to normal white people when i encounter them outside. i have manners. plus, the whole there but for the grace of god thing...but i hate almost everything that they stand for. percentage of white america that owns a fatback record: less than 1%. percentage of japanese population that owns a fatback record: 66%. case closed. fuck this place.

Guys, know what I really hate? How white people dance. What's up with that? It's like, totally lame. And what's up with white people liking all kinds of cheesy stuff like mid 70s Al Stewart and foosball? It's like, wake up white people! You're so lame!!!!

Amirite? Isn't it like totally true?

foosball was created after the inventor watched a Tottenham Hotspur match. foosball is also known as babyfoot. foosball, tottenham, hotspur, and babyfoot are all really cool names. and al stewart is rad. and there are plenty of great white dancers. so, no, not true.

I can't help but hear this thread title in a plaintive, Curtis Mayfield-type voice

"We've got brothers killing brothers in gunfights/and white people critcizing one another for being white"

canadians are pretty chill. as far as white people go. they have a certain dull grace that i find pleasing.

I know you're not fishing for compliments, but thanks--it means a lot to us.

xpost "we got to find a wayyyy to get together and watch Lena Dunham's show"

i'm nice to normal white people when i encounter them outside

i'll bet you get all bill magill with the ecrus, eh

I had a boss who found that damn stupid thingswhitepeopledo.com or whatever it was. Dance to Dave Matthews. Eat mayonnaise sandwiches. Whatever.

And she just goes on and on about how funny it is before confiding to me, "I can share all this with you because we're both white."

I had never had this feeling before. A white person makes a broad assumption about my sense of humor based solely on the color of my skin? I mean, yeah, I've had racists make assumptions before too that I shared their ignorant logic, but that was different. Where the racists may have just been "feeling me out", this woman really thought I'd give a shit about Ally McBeal t-shirts or something from the Sharper Image.

The whole "...because we're both white" thing too... I can't quite put it into words, but maybe it's the closest I can come to being critical of another white person for assessing my whiteness.

I do feel satisfied on the Census forms checking "Non-Hispanic". Not because I have anything against being Hispanic, but because it's easier just to tell people what I'm not. Should be two choices - Native American or Non-Native American.

"go ahead . . . just take it!"

ssshhhhhh

http://www.beautyrevolution-us.com/data/images/page_pics/ecru1.jpg

"A white person makes a broad assumption about my sense of humor based solely on the color of my skin?"

you lead a charmed life. i have experienced this for 40+ years. one of the reasons i hate this dump. except for the pie. pizza and/or fruit-based.

and the records. i'm well-rounded.

this dump?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/480px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg

i'm sure they would rather play gigs in ohio if they could get paid well for it. but ohio is lame and doesn't appreciate post-bop AT ALL.

I don't expect Cleveland to have a big turnout for post-bop concerts and I'm not gonna make a bunch of accusations about it because it doesn't.

Wait how the shit did my city get dragged into this? And why the shit would two people who have obviously never heard of the Tri-C JazzFest say something so butt-fuckingly stupid?

take this thread w/

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vr_najuCoRs/T3HCKYAUgnI/AAAAAAAAALE/tjB6jYo-hSY/s1600/alg_salt_shaker.jpg

yeah I don't know about Cleveland but I go to Akron every year or so and they have a huge jazz following

And why the shit would two people who have obviously never heard of the Tri-C JazzFest say something so butt-fuckingly stupid?

Cause they're white

What pleasant plains said. Do not assume that because my skin is tan (my mom is so dark people mistake her for Puerto Rican) that I am going to eat your bologna.

Maybe it's not your skin color that makes people think you're hungry for bologna…. mmmm?

Hungry4Bologna

Just kind of amazing that someone would pick a city that's got a black population at around 53% as the emblem of lame-o whiteness.

You don't sound "amazed"

I can share you with this because we're both white *passes the blunt*

*looks around nervously* we're all white here... right? *takes out naked polaroids of wife*

why do white people?

Just kind of amazing that someone would pick a city that's got a black population at around 53% as the emblem of lame-o whiteness.

― Julie Derpy (Phil D.), Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:11 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark

blame Jann Wenner and Drew Carey, i guess

Today I learned that Screamin' Jay Hawkins and Henry Mancini are from the same town.

Gotta admit though, Henry Mancini was one white motherfucker.

I can't help but hear this thread title in a plaintive, Curtis Mayfield-type voice

"We've got brothers killing brothers in gunfights/and white people critcizing one another for being white"

― why would she write "argh"? (Hurting 2), Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:40 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

canadians are pretty chill. as far as white people go. they have a certain dull grace that i find pleasing.

"we got to find a wayyyy to get together and watch Lena Dunham's show"

― la musica de harry frogbs (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:55 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lmao

two people who have obviously never heard of the Tri-C JazzFest

Yeah, sorry! I certainly apologize if Cleveland actually draws as big of crowds to *post-bop* concerts as Stockholm does!

I like Cleveland and was sticking up for it.

In the 20's jazz was hot; then they had to water it down for whitey.

Cleveland actually has a pretty active jazz scene and audience -- the aforementioned Tri-C festival, the Cleveland Jazz Orchestra, the Nighttown club, etc. -- and it runs the gamut from trad jazz to big band to bop to post-bop to "cool."

The whole steamer thing -- did that come from Cleveland whites or Cleveland blacks?

Cleveland browns iirc

oh god i swear the double pun only just occured to me after i posted that

well played sir

http://seat-sport.co.za/images/smiley/smiley026.gif

i didn't say cleveland i said ohio. cleveland isn't ohio. cleveland is cleveland. almost every state has one measly city where musicians can almost eke out a painful hand to mouth existence playing music. unless its some wheat field like iowa or south dakota. all things being equal though, if i were a jazz musician i'd much rather be in copenhagen then cleveland. they get genius music in copenhagen. i'd actually rather be at nina hagen's house. i hear she makes a mean apple fritter. which i will except in lieu of pie.

Cleveland is pretty much Ohio. Is it that much worse in Toledo?

my white as can be jazz trumpet-playing/music professor uncle lives in Ohio...

i'll bet he's a big stan kenton fan. does he get mad if you tell him that kenton had no swing? they all get mad when you say that.

i hear she makes a mean apple fritter.

As if you would except anything less from a proper white person.

hey that cleveland jazzfest looks like it was a lot of fun by the way...

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/media/medium/6/3/7/968c96bc8deefe54148bc497d5d80.jpg

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/media/medium/a/6/b/3d3e68f246003516c06635bbed8ed.jpg

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/media/medium/3/9/5/ca68f4c6af862fe7033c3fd8345dc.jpg

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/media/medium/7/e/9/cd4360cf1ca18ecb53993796ea1a4.jpg

Liz Phair isn't from Cleveland though.

rest in peace, jazz temple. and thanks for trying, mr. willis.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Winston_%26_Dizzie.jpg/457px-Winston_%26_Dizzie.jpg

As the club’s notoriety grew throughout the County and State, it came to be known by many world famous jazz musicians as “The Jazz Mecca.” But the interracial dating and “race-mixing” triggered widespread resentment in the racially polarized community. Soon the attempted intimidation by law enforcement began. Some nights saw as many Cleveland police officers in attendance as regular customers. These visits were routinely followed by unscheduled and unannounced inspections and citations. Thereafter, months of ominous threats of violence and anonymous phone calls during and after business hours foretold of the coming end. Several famous acts appearing at the club refused to be intimidated initially, insisting on performing. Finally, the frequency and intensity of the threats were followed by a tremendous after-hours explosion that demolished the Jazz Temple and ended its reign as the jazz mecca.

i lost it so hard at that first cleveland jazzfest fotoe. scott totally otm of course.

jazz dudes goin in

i lost it so hard at that first cleveland jazzfest fotoe. scott totally otm of course.

― Impetuous hybrid (Matt P), Wednesday, June 13, 2012 9:42 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thats joey defrancesco i believe who is dope btw

he's fine if you need a lot of organ in your life. i don't need that much. my dad would drag me to see him and his dad when i was a kid. both him and his dad got so big. like, physically.

man they loved poppa john in philly. that's an organ-y kinda town. john and joey and shirley scott all making a racket.

people i liked in philly were usually as old as the hills like mickey roker. byard lancaster. byard getting jacked up in front of WaWa stores like a common criminal for playing his horn. i liked john swana. and of course rufus harley. and the sun ra gang. and my pal elliot levin. he was crazy. uri caine. pat martino. jimmy bruno. eddie green. but the organ crowd, yeah, small doses for me.

in southern Ohio, Cincinnati was a decent jazz town when I was teen in the 70s. I couldn't get into the clubs on Reading Road but there was an all- jazz radio station, WNOP-AM. "The Jazz Ark" broadcasting from a barge on the Ohio River. Listened to this in between rock stations when we were cruising. Late nights on classical WCUC was "The Electric Stop Sign" with host Oscar Treadwell, a beatnick/scholar who Charlie Parker wrote a song about. "OT"

the local organ-jazz grinder was a dude named Dee Felice, he played everywhere even bowling alleys. also recorded with James Brown on King Records.

Man great work Scott ferreting out the fact that Cleveland did bad things to black people long after all other US cities, including jazz havens like NYC, St. Louis, Chicago and New Orleans had long put any race problems behind them. That's PhD level work, son, keep it up and I can promise you at least one (1) Pulitzer Prize.

I mean I know Cleveland hasn't quite achieved the easygoing racial awesomeness of tiny cities in MA with less than 2% black population, but we're working on it.

Fun Fact: Only four artists performed at the 2012 Tri-C Jazzfest, and they were all white, as were all the attendees, who were served mayo sandwiches on Wonder Bread as refreshment.

when i was a kid i lived on the MN/Iowa border and we actually got Iowa public TV instead of MN public TV, but man, Bix Biederbecke is revered on Iowa Public Television

bummed that i haven't bookmarked this thread, as i'd love to hit "remove" right about now

i know that feeling

"but man, Bix Biederbecke is revered on Iowa Public Television"

as well he should be! bix is from davenport. they got good ice cream there.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HxEuUZJ1PGo/TI0UKiDW0VI/AAAAAAAAAFE/bsfcdtpGjuY/s1600/Iowa+Game+Whitey%27s+Ice+Cream+with+Grace.jpg

y'know I should ask my uncle about Stan Kenton, that's never come up... he teaches the Jazz Ensemble at Miami University, dunno how white that is

whitey 's yogurten

man they loved poppa john in philly. that's an organ-y kinda town. john and joey and shirley scott all making a racket.

― scott seward, Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:21 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I vaguely remember leaving a bar I was playing a show at (maybe Tritone?) to go to a bar down the street where some old-as-moses dudes were playing organ trio jazz. They had some old-guy stiffness to their playing but were pretty greasy and groovy anyway.

And I seem to remember people telling me that it was some kind of known local spot for organ jazz, although possibly past its prime.

bob & barbara's. owned by the guy who started tritone. and before that he had jj's grotto. good jazz at jj's when i lived there. jimmy bruno played there a lot. good pizza. i think he died though? jack. the owner.

nate wiley died too. he was the draw at B&B. its where college kids go to drink pabst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sFSdppO6Ec&feature=related

Yeah, that's the place, in fact I think it was almost definitely nate wiley that I saw. RIP.

God, why are the people in that video so white! I hate them!

that's not nate in the video. he took over for nate after nate died. i can't remember his name. fun group of old-timers! hard to hear them in there though.

its a fun place for kids to drink. the music is just kinda olde tyme ambience.

my dad played this one cd of jimmy bruno all the time when i was a kid

it was good iirc!

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/68761170/The+Jimmy+Bruno+Trio+50614273.jpg

that's the kind of white ppl i can support

otm

i took my dad to see jimmy once. he liked him. my dad was nuts for jazz guitar. jazz anything, but he loved guitar players. i didn't always appreciate it as much when i was a kid. he would drag me along to a tal farlow or barney kessel gig and i didn't always get it. the finesse. the style. horns and drums i got. in a way, horn players and drummers were more like rockers to me than the guitarists. and i was a rockhead.

ha, I bought that Jimmy Bruno CD when I was first trying to learn jazz, and I can still remember the first tune. Weirdly, it took me years of practicing and studying jazz guitar formally to realize that I just don't like jazz guitar that much. It was like there was this sound I heard in my head and that I wanted to play, but I couldn't play it, and then one day I realized that it was because that sound wasn't guitar.

Oh yeah and it's on Concord. Concord is all about jazz guitar. I had the Concord Collection of Jazz Guitar on CD, but the only tunes I really liked were a funky Kenny Burrell tune called La Petit Mambo and a sick version of Seven Come Eleven by Joe Pass and Herb Ellis. Those were the weird days when a CD player was still kind of novel and I didn't have enough money to have a ton of CD's so I just had kind of a random handful of albums. I don't exactly miss it, but there was this weird thing where you'd learn an album backwards and forwards that you didn't even like that much, just because it was all you had to listen to.

was just listening to the red norvo trio stuff with mingus and tal farlow the other day. holy shit that stuff is nuts. tal is amazing on those tracks. and was really young. i mean, not NUTS nuts. i mean what they did in three minutes was amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwIdBaUm4kA

I used to be really self-hating white about jazz actually. I think it was probably because the arts high school I went to was like 90% black. So I was really self-conscious about "not playing white" until one day I came up with a theory (that I still think might be true) that a lot of white jazz players who suck actually suck precisely because they try to play "black," i.e. a really reductionist and pretty racist idea of what jazz is, instead of doing what the best black AND white jazz musicians do, which is just hone the shit out of your musicianship, focus really hard on your accents and the nuances of your phrasing, etc.

yeah, work your ass off. that's the best way to go about anything. keep your head down and do your thing.

anyway, Jim Hall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0mGuRM8tBw&feature=related

i really like jim hall. but sometimes all you really need is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOm17yw__6U

i like what tal and barney did in the 50's. with groups. i don't listen to solo jazz guitar much at all. if i listen to a guitar album it would be wes or kenny burrell or some funky 70's shit.

I'm trying to find you a clip of this Kenny Burrell tune called Three Thousand Miles Back Home -- sample bait from the 70s that was also a random thing I had early on. Record is called Stormy Monday Blues iirc.

Meanwhile, I don't like solo jazz guitar either, but
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHE6FSeWuLQ

Which led me to this, wow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZDSLQsOmNY&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt61GcUl3J0

nice recovery

and my pal elliot levin.

There was a time when I used to see him playing at practically every gig I went to.