why do so many people think the Sex Pistols "invented" punk?

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WHY???

― arc-de-ciel, Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

cuz they're English

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

cos they care

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Why do so many people think the modern Santa Claus was invented by Coca-Cola?

Right.

― Øystein Holm-Olsen (Øystein H-O), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Because they didn't do their research. If they had just dug below the surface, they'd have figured out that Jerry Lee Lewis invented punk.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Because they discovered it wasn't Green Day who invented it?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Because Richard Hell & the Voidoids didn't want Malcolm McLaren to be their manager.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Nobody thinks the Sex Pistols invented punk. Everyone knows the Ramones' debut came out a full year earlier than Never Mind the Bollovks. They tour Europe and then all of a sudden you've got all these bands like the Clash and the Sex Pistols and the Damned and the Buzzcocks trying to cop the Ramones' style. And that's how punk started.

― Evan (Evan), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

ya gotta love this place

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

"Because Richard Hell & the Voidoids didn't want Malcolm McLaren to be their manager."

Sorry to be pedantic but actually it was well before The Voidoids that Malcolm approached Richard Hell; it was after Malcolm had made a balls up of managing The NY Dolls and around the time RH left Television and joined The Heartbreakers with Johnny Thunders and Jerry Nolan.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

why? WHY? WHY? WHY? HAHAHAHAHA!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Nobody thinks the Sex Pistols invented punk. Everyone knows the Ramones' debut came out a full year earlier than Never Mind the Bollovks.

Oh, there are definitely people who think Sex Pistols invented punk. I remember getting into huge arguments about that when I was in high school, and would invariably get counterarguments from the punk kids that "Ramones aren't punk, they're rock'n'roll" etc. Of course, these were the people who couldn't understand why I liked Nomeansno, and considered NOFX to be the upper echelon of 90s punk.

I was a frustrated young man at times.
Now I'm a frustrated old asshole who constantly goes to message boards to write in all caps and never use commas.
Anyone else do the mashed potato while typing? It's pretty fun.

― Øystein Holm-Olsen (Øystein H-O), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

You is right. I guess I just like writing "Voidoids."

Anyway, the Troggs invented punk.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the cycles are getting too short around here for me anymore

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Jerry Lee was the original punk. Everyone knows that.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"Punk is not just about a timbre of guitar! Remember that! HAHAHAHA!"

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

and would invariably get counterarguments from the punk kids that "Ramones aren't punk, they're rock'n'roll" etc.

Oh, I can DEFINITELY see how some people would call the Ramones a non-"punk" band. I just don't happen to agree with them!

― Evan (Evan), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

it was always there
just waiting to be discovered
and not 'invented'

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Good point!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:58 (twenty-two years ago)

the cycles are getting too short around here for me anymore

ragged-arsed trousers to thread

martin-skidmore-to-point-out-category-error to thread

someone-to-point-out-that-punk-is-an-'attitude'-and-therefore-nothing-to-do-with-what-it-actually-sounds-like-except-in-relation-to-previous-orthodoxy to thread

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Supposedly the origin of the term is credited to Dave Marsh in a 1971 issue of Creem where he describes a live performance of Question Mark & The Mysterians. So, you could argue that Question Mark & The Mysterians invented punk. The problem is, from then on the meaning divulged into increasingly different paths of meaning, describing bands, people, actions, scenes, fashion, etc.

― Ryan McKay (Ryan McKay), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

someone-to-point-out-that-punk-is-an-'attitude'-and-therefore-nothing-to-do-with-what-it-actually-sounds-like-except-in-relation-to-previous-orthodoxy to thread

"Punk is not just about a timbre of guitar! Remember that! HAHAHAHA!"

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

MUST....RESIST.....URGE....TO....JOIN...THREAD

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

come on alex

come on

you know you want it

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i know woody allen...

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

"Monk Time" by the monks and "There She Goes Again" by VU are the earliest punk tracks i'v heared.

― rex jr., Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

HEAD.....ABOUT....TO....EXPLODE....

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

or who cares.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:30 (twenty-two years ago)

nobody has mentioned a single real punk band yet.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe there aren't any

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah there are. like the beatles.

but only their early stuff before they sold out.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

punk rockism to thread

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

People think the Sex Pistols invented punk because:

(a) As it turns out, the Sex Pistols sound markedly different from the majority of their punk contemporaries, enough so that you could actually make a case that they weren't punk. However

(b) Their version of "punk" turned out to be the dominant version of punk, particularly as it came back to the U.S. over the following years. Which means

(c) People think they invented it, in which sense they're sort of right -- the Pistols invented Pistols-style punk, which somehow became the strain of punk the word "punk" wound up belonging to for a while.

It's harder to say why they became the focus of "punk" -- some combination of being very commercially successful, I suppose, and of being culturally iconic to punk. And leaving way more evidence of themselves -- in the form of video, interviews, and news -- than a lot of their contemporaries. But if "punk" as people had conceived of it had been more to do with the sorts of punk played by the Damned or the Adverts or something, this would all be different.

(Possible gaping hole in this theory: "punk" as it's been conceived of in the U.S. since the 80s tends to sound more like Stiff Little Fingers than the Pistols.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"Cause Greil Marcus said so!"

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Nah, Greil Marcus said the Cathars invented punk.

― die9o (dhadis), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually I take back what I just said. The sound of American punk has always been 90% Ramones, the only circa-77 band I could imagine playing "All the Small Things" without sounding too bizarre. But the idea of punk -- including the look of it -- has always been given over to the Pistols.

And still there's the sound issue. For most of their contemporaries punk was attitude and process, really, stuff that got applied to a particular form of overcharged rock'n'roll. The Pistols more than most others wiped that rock'n'roll background out a bit (and perhaps dropped in a bit of Sabbath as well), leaving something that can seem more centrally "punk" than most punk (which doesn't actually sound like "punk," see?).

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.zm101.com/los50/jerrylee/FYOU.JPG

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with everything nabisco said. The Pistols turned punk into a theatrical/visual thing; most punk is just a bunch of ordinary guys and three chords and not really notable unless you're into that sort of thing. Pistols punk the old people can take pictures of kids with mohawks and safety pins in their face.

― Kris (aqueduct), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

The Ramones - musically uninteresting, one song played over and over again.

The Sex Pistols - RAW POWER.

this kind of answers the original question, as basically the Stooges invented punk. But that answer is rockist. In any sense that matters the Sex Pistols are the first punk band.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

""invented""

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"Supposedly the origin of the term is credited to Dave Marsh in a 1971 issue of Creem"

tell that to Leggs McNeill...

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

The Sex Pistols DID invent British punk. American punk was different because it was mostly guys in their mid to late 20s and had a sense of irony and detachment. The Pistols were young and not even remotely ironic (I doubt Steve Jones knew what it meant).

― Dadaismus, Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Another good question is why the British "own" punk -- i.e., why is "punk" London-77 and not New York-77? (Okay, it's not really a good question because the answer is obvious, but still: what does it mean that this giant varied "punk" thing has been reduced to a specific vision of it, and all of its other parts cordoned off as punk-but-not-really-punk?)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

becuz, per usual in the UK music = fashion, nothing more

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

surely punk has been kicking around as a music form for ages early 60's for instance - i mean garage bands were bashing out 2 minute hard edge rock and roll that is to all intents and purposes PUNK.

most people were aware of 'punk' with the advent of the pistols and the Sex shop - as a reult Punk has exosted way before the SP but became primarily a marketing tool post 76

― james (james), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Without the Ramones & Richard Hell, there wouldn't have been a Sex Pistols.Case dismissed!NEXT?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

no Johnny Thunders, no Steve Jones

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

So true, James....even by his own admission.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

And without the Beach Boys, there would have been no Ramones. Does this mean Brain Wilson invented punk?

― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

That wasn't the question. The question was whether or not the `Pistols invented it,........smartypants.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

julian cope says the electric eels did it

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i believe everything he says

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Leadbelly invented death metal

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok. I'd say the Sex Pistols did invent punk (they surely invented SOMETHING), precisely because their music DOESN'T sound quite like other punk. In the same way, Elvis invented rockabilly but those Sun records maybe aren't quite rockabilly themselves. Or Armstrong invented swing, but the Hot Fives and Sevens aren't really swing either. The Sex Pistols were hands down the best band of their time. Their music was so immediately overwhelming that, yes, all that (British) punk stuff happened -- would NOT have happened without them, Ramones or no.

― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Saying "The Ramones aren't punk, they're rock n roll!" is quite possibly the most idiotic thing in the entire galaxy. Punk IS Rock N Roll, the whole point of it was to remind people of what rock n roll originally was.

― David Allen, Tuesday, 8 April 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

the cycles are getting too short around here for me anymore

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Since the Sex Pistols formed before the first Ramones album even came out, and they don't sound anything like each other, I can't see the link. The Ramones' '76 tour of England certainly influenced a lot of bands there (like the Clash) but the Pistols weren't one of them.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Wrong.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Exactly.
The Ramones formed in '73-'74? and started touring in late '74
The Pistols formed in '75 and started touring in mid '76

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

r kelly invented punk

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

r kelly invented kindercore.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

crackers luv how punk jerry cousinfucking wifemurdering lee lewis was but think r kelly oughta be lynched

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

like evil-ass crackers *need* an excuse to think r kelly should be lynched. Thats what make an evil-ass cracker evil...the need to lynch anyone with a tan deeper than their own.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

anyhow, this has not much to do with Sex Pistols or punk. Sorry for the thread hijack. We now return to the thread already in progress....

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought Greenday invented it in the USA then Avril Discovered it in Canada! Who are the Six Pistols?

― SplendidMullet (iamamonkey), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Sounds like a country group?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Everyone knows who really invented punk.

http://www.cmt.com/img/shania.twain/mu10030202-shaniatwain-189x182.jpg

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

There was an MC5 shirt on Friends this week how punk is that!!

― SplendidMullet (iamamonkey), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Not one iota.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I have a Rick James t-shirt.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

the nme invented punk.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

the nme invented getting punked.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Yep, Q bends it over a pool table and TAKES it roughly any time it wants to. And worse yet, it has begun to enjoy it.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

How does Smash Hits fit into this?

I think it's urgent & key to keep posting that Shania pic because it'll send Alex into a frenzy of punk rhetoric and he hasn't done that in a while.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

he threatened to skin Miccio, that counts for something

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

How does Smash Hits fit into this?
Smash Hits has the Super 8 camera and films the whole thing...

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Listen, skinning Anthony is nothing compared to that Shania Twain's Ramones T-Shirt thread.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

that Shania pic was on the cover of the local TV listings mag last week for the damn junos.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyone else do the mashed potato while typing?

If you can really do it I'm very impressed. All that ankle-pivoting action?

― Sean (Sean), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

woah. I totally ignore this thread, and then I find my name on it. Weird.

Alex is a pussycat. Don't fear him. I'm the tiger. Growl.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

see, I'll test the theory.

FRED DURST IS PUNK. THERE IS NOBODY MORE PUNK THAN FRED, EXCEPT MAYBE GOOD CHARLOTTE. BUT THEY'RE BETTER THAN PUNK, BECAUSE THEY'RE NICE GUYS.

see? nothing. no fire, nothin'.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

does anyone really give a fuck who "invented" punk?

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

the cycles are getting too short around here for me anymore

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Greil Marcus invented punk, btw.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Nobody could've "invented" punk, because the term was made up after the music.

― David Allen, Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Lets talk about Basketball!

― SplendidMullet (iamamonkey), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

ANTHONY YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YR DEALING WITH.

I have that Shania shirt.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

The Who invented punk on "My Generation"

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesus invented punk at the temple.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

he had a t-shirt that said "I Hate Moneychangers" and screamed HEAL YOURSELF!!! Andrew Lloyd Webber (or was it Greg Dulli?) wrote a song about it.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T HEARD ROCKET FROM THE TOMBS.

(who did not invent punk either)

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

the Saints invented punk. probably.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

satan invented punk

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer did.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, now I protest.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Spike says Billy Idol ripped off his look = Spike's contribution to punk was actually a bit depressing (though his contribution to making "Generation X" a null term is totally worthy of praise)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Come to think of it, punk was of course invented by Plastic Bertrand and Splodgenessabounds.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 23:51 (twenty-two years ago)

satan invented punk
And for this we are truly thankful. Amen.
(*sticks out tongue and makes devil horns motion*)
Bleah!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 00:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Per L. Bangs, Lady Godiva's horse invented punk.

― Methuselah (Methuselah), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 02:40 (twenty-two years ago)

The Ramones formed in '73-'74? and started touring in late '74
The Pistols formed in '75 and started touring in mid '76

Starland Vocal Band formed in late '74 and started touring in mid-'75.
Motorhead formed in mid-75 and began touring the same year.

DO YOU SEE?!

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

ACT 1, SCENE 2: The Earl of Gloucester's castle.

Enter EDMUND, with a letter.

EDMUND:
Thou, nature, art my goddess; to thy law
My services are bound. Wherefore should I
Stand in the plague of custom, and permit
The curiosity of nations to deprive me,
For that I am some twelve or fourteen moonshines
Lag of a brother? Why bastard? wherefore base?
When my dimensions are as well compact,
My mind as generous, and my shape as true,
As honest madam's issue? Why brand they us
With base? with baseness? bastardy? base, base?
Who, in the lusty stealth of nature, take
More composition and fierce quality
Than doth, within a dull, stale, tired bed,
Go to the creating a whole tribe of fops,
Got 'tween asleep and wake?
...
Now, gods, stand up for bastards!

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 07:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Sid's mum gave birth to punk:

http://www.users.wineasy.se/ludde/pics/311.jpg

"I grow. I prosper."

― weatheringdaleson (weatheringdaleson), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 07:45 (twenty-two years ago)

''does anyone really give a fuck who "invented" punk?''

ha, di you're as 'concerned' abt this as I am:

''or who cares.''

get a life (or not) ppl!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 08:15 (twenty-two years ago)

nabisco - well said.
The Ramones are a nice enough rock'n'roll band.... but to call them a 'punk' band is laughable. Hideously overrated.
David Allen - punk most certainly IS NOT rock'n'roll - I'd say, to coin your phrase, to say so is probably the most idiotic thing in the world.

― russ t, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 08:46 (twenty-two years ago)

....and because it's a UK V. US thing, of course. Americans simply can't bear the thought that us Brits actually invented a musical genre. Which, with punk, we did. Accept it.

― russ t, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 08:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Russ do you have any idea what you've just stumbled into?!

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 08:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Brits invented baseball too!

― dave q, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 09:08 (twenty-two years ago)

punk was exported to the US by a UK group called The Quakers

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 10:47 (twenty-two years ago)

"Americans simply can't bear the thought that us Brits actually invented a musical genre."

No, the Americans invented it, repeatedly in fact. Unfortunately the vast majority of them repeatedly failed to recognise it or appreciate it or pay any attention to it at all until the Brits saw it, borrowed it, changed it 'round a little bit, repackaged it, and sold it straight back to them at an enormous profit.

Just the same as happened with R'n'B, The Blues, Blues-Rock, Psychedelia, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 11:14 (twenty-two years ago)

if they had amplification at the turn of the first millenium jesus and the disciples would've invented punk

― schnellschnell, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The Ramones formed in '73-'74? and started touring in late '74
The Pistols formed in '75 and started touring in mid '76
Starland Vocal Band formed in late '74 and started touring in mid-'75.
Motorhead formed in mid-75 and began touring the same year.

Toto didn't form until 1978. What's the point anyway?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

The Ramones started touring in 1974? Let's see, one week we play CBGBs, next week we play Max's, one week we play CBGBs, next week we play Max's, one week we play CBGBs, next week we play Max's, one week we play CBGBs, next week we play Max's etc etc. Even if they did start touring in 1974 they sure as hell never played in Shepherd's Bush or Finsbury Park! So how exactly can the Sex Pistols, who formed in 1975, have been influenced by them? The truth is the Sex Pistols were more influenced by the Faces and Mott the Hoople than by The Ramones.

― Dadaismus, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"What's the point anyway?"

Well as far as I'm concerned, if they're being mentioned in the same breath as The Ramones, The Pistols and Motorhead it means I must buy all of Starland Vocal Band's back catalogue immediately!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

The Ramones started touring in 1974? Let's see, one week we play CBGBs, next week we play Max's, one week we play CBGBs, next week we play Max's, one week we play CBGBs, next week we play Max's, one week we play CBGBs, next week we play Max's etc etc.
You forgot the Mercer Arts Center and that place across the river in jersey where the Feelies used to play every July 4th.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Nowhere near the Goldhawk Road then?

― Dadaismus, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm drawing a total blank. I just can't seem to remember what the name of that joint was back in 1976. But it was semi-important. Not as important as CBGB's/Mercer/Max's, but then again, what was?
(First person to say "Studio 54" gets a blast of 440 cattle prod to the nutsack.)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

what about blondie, the pattie smith group, richard hell (and whoever), and VELVET UNDERGROUND.
just because they don´t sound like the pistols doesn´t mean, they weren´t punk.

― arc-de-ciel, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

the new york dolls and suicide? I think they were quite punk

― arc-de-ciel, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's urgent & key to keep posting that Shania pic because it'll send Alex into a frenzy of punk rhetoric and he hasn't done that in a while.

I am not a performing monkey.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

WE ARE ALL PARODIES OF OURSELF, IRONY HAS GONE TOO FAR.

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer did.

Are you insane! Clearly it was Spike from Degrassi High. Buffy didn't even come out until, what, 1996. YOU POSEUR!

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

'Toto didn't form until 1978'

Ah but they appeared collectively behind various others (Warren Zevon, Jackson Browne etc), so maybe if you count the participants under their other guises we might get to the bottom of this! Didn't the Stranglers' keyboardist start off with the Humphry Lyttleton Cmboor something? But then, Debbie Harry was one of the original 'flappers'!

― dave q, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

David Allen - punk most certainly IS NOT rock'n'roll - I'd say, to coin your phrase, to say so is probably the most idiotic thing in the world.
-- russ t (russ.thoma...), April 9th, 2003.

Then what is punk rock? And why is punk listed under rock in all music? And why do they play guitars with a driving backbeat, and most of the bands themselves said they were trying to bring back the sound of original rock? And... and.. well, never mind, keep punkin it up badass style.

― David Allen, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Dunedin invented ILM.

― di smith (lucylurex), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

The funniest thing about this thread is its implication that "inventing punk" was something really brilliant and hard-to-do.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Nadir's Big Chance

I've been hanging around, waiting for my chance
to tell you what I think about the music that's gone down
to which you madly danced - frankly, you know that it stinks.
I'm gonna scream, gonna shout, gonna play my guitar
until your body's rigid and you see stars.

Look at all the jerks in their tinsel glitter suits,
pansying around; look at all the nerks
in their leather platform boots, making with the heavy sound...
I'm gonna stamp on the stardust and scream till I'm ill -
if the guitar don't get ya, the drums will.

Now's my big break - let me up on the stage,
I'll show you what it's all about; enough of the fake,
bang your feet in a rage, tear down the walls and let us out!
We're more than mere morons, perpetually conned,
so come on everybody, smash the system with the song.

Smash the system with the song!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

thee above = from 1974 fwiw. not that i give a sh!t really, nabisco = otm as per bloody usual.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Thursday, 10 April 2003 01:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Indeed, "Nadir's Big Chance", one of Johnny Rotten's favourite albums.

― Dadaismus, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

The funniest thing about this thread is its implication that "inventing punk" was something really brilliant and hard-to-do.

Smuggest post I've read on ILM in a damn long time.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah you invent something Nabisco, weren't you planning on revolutionising dance music?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i say everyone on ilm must invent a genre before they commenton this thread!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, that was too harsh. But really, that's a pretty horrible/conceited comment! I mean, how hard were you laughing?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

john holstrom and legs mcneil invented 'punk'. i'm not sure who 'invented' punk though

― schnellschnell, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

ws burroughs. and steppenwolf.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

the SONICS! the SONICS!

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Prometheus stole fire from the gods = first act of punk

― schnellschnell, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the point of that oh-so-conceited (?) post is that punk as a musical genre didn't involve the complex-construction type of invention, like the steam engine or the cotton gin: it pretty much involved playing 50s rock except playing it faster, louder, and sloppier, something that could have been "invented" by getting Chuck Berry really fucking drunk and slashing his amplifier cones.

Thus I think loads and loads of fighting over punk as a musical invention -- trying to hold up any given band as the ones who had that brilliant idea, despite the fact that loads and loads of rock music was moving in that direction all through the sixties and seventies -- is a bit of a fool's errand.

If you want to talk about the idea of punk and who came up with that, my sense is that (a) you're going to find the same slow fade -- punk as a developing concept, not something someone thought up full-fledged in a stroke of personal genius -- and (b) you're not going to be talking about musicians anyway.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

To which please add that I find it a million times smugger of you two to assume I was taking a cheap shot at the genre of punk, rather than assuming that maybe I had some sort of point about the relative difficulty of introducing it as a genre.

But this is ILM, so I suppose it's just tradition to read everything as prickly and smug.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

(See, now I'm being smug.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

(Actually sorry, it's an hour later and I should apologize for being mock-smug: in today's ILM context I can completely see why you'd have read that as a weird passing shot at punk. It's not. I like punk -- I just don't think inventing it was some stroke of personal genius, more just a moment that opened itself up for a particular idea.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Christ, not to get all Alex 'listen junior' on here but Sex Pistols = McLaren's response to the Dolls and (mainly) Richard Hell. The Sex Pistols were brilliant, great, slobber slobber, etc. but they weren't original in any way and hence can't be accused of inventing anything.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

TESTIFY, Brother James! CAN I GET AN 'AMEN'?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

No but you can get some calls of "blasphemy" from the back pews.
...but they weren't original in any way and hence can't be accused of inventing anything.
Maybe, maybe not. But they sure knew what to ressurect. I personally think Johnny Rotten took the best bits of Screaming Jay Hawkins, Ozzy Osbourne (back when he was scary) and Oscar Wilde and glommed them together in an interesting fashion. JR, at least, deserves some credit.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah and we all know how fantastically original the Dolls and Richard Hell were. (the next sound you hear is that of my patented sarcasm detector blowing up)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 11 April 2003 00:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Who, pray tell, did Richard Hell rip off then, Justyn?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 11 April 2003 00:33 (twenty-two years ago)

the cycles are getting too short around here for me anymore

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 11 April 2003 00:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Rimbaud and Verlaine, for starters.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 11 April 2003 00:37 (twenty-two years ago)

So Rimbaud and Verlaine invented Punk Rock, then, did they? Ah,.....thanks for clearing that up.

The original Punk: http://www.levity.com/corduroy/images/rimbaud.gif

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 11 April 2003 00:39 (twenty-two years ago)

So Rimbaud and Verlaine invented Punk Rock, then, did they? Ah,.....thanks for clearing that up.

rimbaud and verlaine invented "punk," in both the musical and jail-house sense then!

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 11 April 2003 01:29 (twenty-two years ago)

besides, Satan didn't invent punk. he invented heavy metal. were you kids asleep during that particular Sunday school lesson (or didn't read that particular Chick Tract)?

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 11 April 2003 01:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually Nabisco, I thought you probably would come back and explain yr inflammatory comment w/"musical/social conditions at time etc" but why didn't you just say so in the first place?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 11 April 2003 01:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, I guess I like punk enough that I didn't imagine anyone would think I was taking cheap shots at it. (I mean, if you read the statement literally it's not snarky at all: I just don't think punk was some big "invention.")

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 05:47 (twenty-two years ago)

nabisco in totally not punk shockah.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 11 April 2003 05:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, ok. I didn't know you liked it.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 11 April 2003 06:16 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.wonderfullywackie.com/pocketbikephattymarklarge.jpg

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 11 April 2003 08:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, a lot of the UK punks were pretty original, both in the rhythm playing and the singing. I think it is because they made rock music that wasn't based on rhythm and blues, perhaps for the first time (although some VU...). Not all punk, but Wire, "Part Time Punks", perhaps the Clashnpistols, although the Pistols' sound was significantly *bigger* than those others.

― phil wise (beachbum), Friday, 11 April 2003 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

but the vast majority of so-called 'punk' bands made music which sounded very UNoriginal to some - just like R'n'B/Rock, but, as nabisco said above, faster and/or sloppier.
Sex Pistols in particular were leaden, lumpen, utterly normal heavy rawk, just a bit messy and with less flashy guitar solos - like a bunch of 6.5/10 rock school students.
~~Lydon's~~oh sorry "Rotten"'s voice was the only radical element in the sound, and if you didn't like it there was nothing else to find +ve/interesting....
other than all the look-at-me HOO-HA of course
-> punk was 'invented' (ie noticed and decribed and solidified) when it was given a name and that name came into common music+social world usage
-> punk was 'invented' by the UK music & tabloid press

if you thought its 'ideology' was a gonzoid tunnel-vision version of stuff that was already available from other music/art ideas
(punk: look! you only need to know these 3 chords!)
(TG: no, you don't NEED to know ANY)
or was seen as a cartoon irrelevance to the direction the (music+social) world was actually going to move in
(social(ism) decay -> ~~anarchy~~ oops -> individualistic technocracy)

then the 'meaning' of punk seemed ratshit too

revisionist reclamation of bands such as suicide, pere ubu, devo, gang of four & later wire as 'punk' might be nice work for writers, but it has little to do with the cultural frameworks/understanding of punters at the time
(can remember suicide getting shit from clash-fan luddites, the diff in reception for Joy Division & Buzzcocks at a '79 concert, the frosty reception miller/rental got on their support slot to Stiff Little Fingers, went through all the arguments about how synthesizers just weren't 'real music' AGAIN, but with a bunch of gtr-obsessed punk blockheads instead of gtr-obsessed rock/metal blockheads - oh yeah, radical difference....)

and i've never bought this received-wisdom line that the likes of lydon/shelley et al were 'actually' wanting to make post-punk style music from the start - nobody held a gun to their heads while they were producing all that stuff.
they just missed the boat but jumped on a year or two later on the basis of past 'glories' - ppl like eno/bowie/devo/h.league/pere ubu/TG/cabs/fripp were already miles ahead of them

(haha in the same period as eno/snatch release 'King's Lead Hat/RAF', and CV's first EP comes out, and devo's r-we-not-men, punky pish shelley is bringing out 'ever fallen in love' & 'what do i get', the blink 182 of its day - then >3 yrs later he's coming on like the man in the ice-cream fucking suit or something, sitting there next to the now culturally-approved computer, looking like the spare best-man who was never actually needed at the late 70's tech-rock wedding)

one of my favourite letters from NME, punter addressing Julie Burchill, went something like:
"Julie, you got 'Low' and you got 'Never Mind The Bollocks' - and BOY did you EVER make the wrong choice."

[/i_am_insane_mode]

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 11 April 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

'TWAS I WHO INVENTED PUNK!

http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/cinedestin/films/r/ri/rimbaudverlaine.jpg

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Yr a bit young. The Ramones may have helped invent/heavily shape Motorhead, let's focus on that maybe

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 11 April 2003 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

can anyone name 10 English punk records that were actually good

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

by 'good' i mean they have to occur to you RIGHT NOW like you want to listen to them RIGHT NOW before i post next

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

You won't like them tho, will you

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 11 April 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

well if I knew what they were i might!

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

no 'Q' lists they have to be on YOUR playlist!

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe i want to buy some UK punk and don't know where to start! where's the recommendations already!?

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

"It's a shame the Yanks don't get irony" (Q Magazine, to be read in ridiculous nasal camp voice while flapping wrist)

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

10, fuck. Sex Pistols
Swell Maps Trip to Marineville
Wire Pink Flag
Gang of Four Entertainment
Au Pairs playing W/a Different Sex
Clash London Calling
Undertones
Chic Risque
ok this is obv why people go on about postpunk, most of these qualify in some way and I'm really not up to mentioning the Stiff Little Fingers, and otherwise you run out of records, but um MAGAZINE Real Life, Joy Division... I don't even like proper PUNK that much

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 11 April 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

The Undertones were English?

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

northern irish. so british, maybe.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 11 April 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I was getting pretty desperate.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 11 April 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

throbbing gristle invented UK punk

― schnellschnell, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(just waiting for someone to say 'wasn't about records you had to BE there' which means the much-storied revolution is just more exclusionariness like everything else that's ever come out of an english person's mouth)(cue more 'dentristy' jokes here!)

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

throbbing gristle invented UK punk

no - they showed how much it sucked ass
playing TG in 1978 at a 'punk disco' (haw haw) wouldn't have gone down well - of course some ppl think that's a good thing, but that's not the point

q - maybe it was about the records AND about being there to realise how lame they were at the time
(you don't like 'exclusionariness' ?)

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 11 April 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Not going down well sounds pretty punk, unless you mean sexually (for guys, obv)

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 11 April 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

q punk was a singles genre you rockist.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 11 April 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

'punk' -
a form of music which is nothing to do with what it actually sounds like as long as it pisses somebody off

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 11 April 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Me in agreeing with DV shocker!

The Sex Pistols tied the music to something outside the music, and then it was punk (and called punk). It's an American fallacy to consider it "just another bit of rock", (and part of the whole punk vs. punk rock), and miss the answer to the question of why this music had to go across the Atlantic and back to make an impression outside New York.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

'q punk was a singles genre you rockist'

that's why i said 'records'

― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, dude, no problem, then, there's a comp on my desk:

Members - "Solitary Confinement"
Damned - "New Rose"
Menace - "G.L.C."
Alternative TV - "How Much Longer"
Eater - "Thinkin' of the USA"
Adverts - "One Chord Wonders"
Flys - "Love and a Molotov Cocktail"
999 - "Emergency"
UK Subs - "C.I.D."
Subway Sect - "Amibition"

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Note that with the exception of maybe the Alternative TV track, none of those have much to do with the way the Pistols sounded, as tends to be true of 99% of punk.

See, you can't "invent" a genre just by doing it first: all you've invented then is yourself. Surely a "genre" is invented by all the people who come along later and sound like you -- or, even more properly, by the first person to look at all those people and decide that there's an actual genre going on, not just a bunch of bands that sound alike. The problem with saying the Pistols "invented" punk is that, soundwise, the vast majority of punk didn't really have much to do with them. The good bit about saying it is that the Pistols really did serve the role of sailing the flagship and somehow appearing to pull everything else into an organized, centralized thing.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

So, I was all prepared to cut loose into a hateful, dismissive batch of vitriol on all these other threads about "saving Hip Hop" and "the Importance of Old School Hip Hop" and "Why must R'n'B pollute Hip Hop" and all this other tepid crap that turns my blood into nitro -glycerin and then it hit me -- while I do indeed think the "importance" of Hip Hop is needlessly overstressed -- this thread right here so near and dear to my heart ain't no better! And like the argument about the merits of "old school" Hip Hop -- the merits of arguing "who invented Punk" are equally moot (the larger point being that both Punk Rock and Hip-Hop are -- for all intents and purposes in this day and age --DEAD, DEAD and thrice DEAD). Maybe this is just some bastardization of the point Nabisco made that I chastized him as being smug about. I guess me getting all apoplectic about people calling the ridiculous garbage that is Good Charlotte (or, for that matter, Avril Lavigne) Punk Rock is no different than people lamenting the Ja Rules and Ashantis and Icey Hot Stuntaz of today.

Maybe we should all get over it and look for something brand new and different to argue about?

NAAAAAHHHHHHH!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 11 April 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyone who laments the existance of the Icy Hot Stuntaz is a fool anyway. HONOuR THE WHITE TRASH FOOLS.

http://members.aol.com/path2005/private/Icy_Hot_Stuntaz.jpg

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I like how they photoshopped as many sparkles onto their "bling bling"ery as they could, the physics of light travel be damned.

BTW, the Icy Hot Stuntaz invented punk. ;-)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 11 April 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

That's cos they are the Lord of the Blings. They definitely invented something but I'm not sure what. Photoshop gangsta-ism maybe?

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Lord of the Blings

BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahahaha

http://www.an-irrational-domain.net/images/jaz/jaz38.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 11 April 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

So you've never seen this Alex? Prepare thineself:

http://www.attrition.org/gallery/spoof/lord_of_the_blings.jpg

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Do I have to be the first person to ask what that is?

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Its to block image linking to Attrition.org/

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

thank you.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

any time.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

You're the best. Anything I can do to return the favor, just ask.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Happiness again reigns supreme.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(*speads joyous pixie dust*)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

...and soon, I shall all of ILM shall be hopelessly addicted to the narcotic effects of my pixie dust!
BWAhahahahahaha!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

...
oh...wait...did I just say that out loud?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Sex Pistols in particular were leaden, lumpen, utterly normal heavy rawk, just a bit messy and with less flashy guitar solos - like a bunch of 6.5/10 rock school students.
Lydon'soh sorry "Rotten"'s voice was the only radical element in the sound, and if you didn't like it there was nothing else to find +ve/interesting....
other than all the look-at-me HOO-HA of course

But how do you explain, then, how they, aurally, blow away the competition? Don't listen to Bollocks to do it - it has half a dozen peak tracks and then the other stuff. But stacking up Anarchy/Holidays/Queen/Bodies/Submission/Belsen against virtually anything else similar from the time and those tracks just elbow them out of the way. I've just done it with the Dolls and the Clash, who in many ways were both better bands. Those tracks just knock them over, though.

Some of it was that Lydon was prepared to go further with his vocal attack, sure (esp Bodies and Belsen). But why do these pistols tracks also dominate every single PIL track I've heard?

― phil wise (beachbum), Friday, 11 April 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok, pixie dust is totally unpunk, kid.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

but its PUNK pixie dust. (Its made by mohawked elves)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 12 April 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

phil - only you can answer that question...

(btw - have read that NMTB's producer came to the task fresh from working with Paul McCartney - probably not something that would have been shouted about at the time - ooh those crafty music types, eh ?)

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Saturday, 12 April 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

then again that was well before the cult of THE PRODUCER

(which, to the extent it revealed the workings of the process, was a good thing on average)

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Saturday, 12 April 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

phil - only you can answer that question...

I disagree. I don't think there is any such thing as an objective standard when it comes to this sort of thing, and I'm perfectly happy if *you* can't answer the question because that isn't the way you hear it. But I'd say some sort of majority of open listeners to the sex pistols can hear the force of those tracks. I'd hazard that's why the album remains a classic (that and the whole history/myth thing of course). So there's a significant listening community that may be able to answer the question.

Having said that, my guess to the answer would lie in either that the music is more original than you think (although I can hear the resemblances you citeth), OR (and) that some other spark ignites the things even if they aren't, in the sense you mean, original. Invention or inspiration - sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.

― phil wise (beachbum), Sunday, 13 April 2003 07:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Jonathan Richman invented punkrock :-)

― Jens (brighter), Sunday, 13 April 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Hal Chase invented punk rock

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 13 April 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Oe of my best friends looks like Jonathan Richman, it's frightening.

― Ally (mlescaut), Sunday, 13 April 2003 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Does he make a big deal about how "straight" he is too?

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Come to think of it, there was this story about another guy punctuated with an awful lot of "It was just for fun, you see, I'm not gay".

― Ally (mlescaut), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Musically Stooges was first punk-rock band, I think. But not mentally -- by image they were just demeneted hippies. But about SP -- coz McLaren created the legend. With whole hype, LP and film. Nobody else did it.

― Margus Kiis, estonian rock critic (Margus Kiis, estonian rock cri), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:26 (twenty-two years ago)

two months pass...

1596 LODGE Incarn. Deuils Wks. (Hunter. Soc.) IV. 69 He hath a Punck (as the pleasant Singer cals her).

― The OED, Thursday, 19 June 2003 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

People think of The Pistols when punk is mentioned 'cuz...
they were louder and way more obnoxious. They had an agenda that involved politics, posing as anarchists and rallying 'gainst the Queen and such. They so ca-rayzee. They made themselves more noticeable in the end, by being the real catalyst for the movement. I personally happen to think the Ramones were a better band several times over and more than just a punk band.

― Francis Watlington, Thursday, 19 June 2003 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Jerry Lee Lewis: godfather
Screaming Lord Sutch: "look at me-me-me!" lunacy
Beatles (Hamburg): leather jackets, Phil Spector covers
The Stooges: rude 'tude
Led Zeppelin, "Communication Breakdown": frenetic barre-chording
NY Dolls: shamelessly showoff androgymous attire
Tubes, "White Punks on Dope": name check
Malcolm McLaren: PT Barnum/Col. Parker

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Thursday, 19 June 2003 06:50 (twenty-two years ago)

To answer Dave's question:

The Users - "Sick of You" / "I'm In Love With Today"
The Rezillos - Can't Stand the Rezillos
Eater - The Album
Skrewdriver - "You're So Dumb" / "Better Off Crazy"
Slaughter and the Dogs - "Cranked Up Really High" / "The Bitch"
The Boys - "Sick On You" / "Soda Pressing"
The Damned - "Neat Neat Neat" / "Stab Your Back"
Johnny Moped - "Incendiary Device" / "Noone"
The Pork Dukes - "Telephone Masturbator" / "Bend and Flush"
Adverts - "Bored Teenagers" / "Gary Gilmore's Eyes"

― Kris (aqueduct), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

The Rezillos were English?

― dave q, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:58 (twenty-one years ago)

a better answer for dave's question: every british punk record was good.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(i have no idea if this is actually true or not, just that i've never heard a bad one, at least from 77-79)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i heard all the bad ones justyn, trust me

caring who invented it = you don't understand it

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

mark: could you list some superfun english punk tunes I'm probably not familiar with but should be familiar with (ie. to dl)

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:44 (twenty-one years ago)

please

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:44 (twenty-one years ago)

kris's list = a v.strong start

(haha the pork dukes)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Desperate Bicycles. It's easy it's cheap go and do it. I did.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

And I haven't stopped....

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Where WERE the Rezillos from? OK replace them with Alberto Y Lost Trios Paranoias - Snuff Rock EP.

― Kris (aqueduct), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:16 (twenty-one years ago)

kris they're scottish

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:22 (twenty-one years ago)

.... and Alberto Y Los Trios Paranoias were a comedy / theatre group taking the piss.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:24 (twenty-one years ago)

So?

― Kris (aqueduct), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

So != punk.

Very good and very funny but not punk.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

b-b-but half of all bondage trousers and associated bumflaps at the time seemed to be TARTAN

haha do you expect us all to believe that's JUST A COINCIDENCE?

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Ummmm.... I was talking about Alberto Y Los Trios Paranoias (who came from Manchester IIRC) not The Rezillos (debateably punk, but Scottish which of course definitely != English)

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Incidentally, fwiw, The Pork Dukes were a bunch of Fairport Convention / Steeleye Span renegades (basically the same people who later recorded as The Wombles!) taking the piss too.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(oops i reread that and saw what you meant after posting sorry)

still the dread legacy of victorian crazes stalketh the land muahahaaaaa..

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure how "taking the piss" is incompatible with punk. Or is it too punk to be punk?

Also, I know Scottish isn't english, but how is it even debatable that the Rezillos were a punk band? Is there some threshold level of sanctimony required to achieve punkness? Why let the bores ruin it for everyone else? Any definition of punk that would exclude the Sex Pistols (who were obviously "taking the piss" more than anyone else, since they had the largest bathroom) doesn't seem very useful to me.

If these groups aren't punk what are they then? Are the Pork Dukes a folk band?

― Kris (aqueduct), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:21 (twenty-one years ago)

The Rezillos were SCOTTISH!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:22 (twenty-one years ago)

The rezillos rocked and were fukcing great. That's all I care about really.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

"I'm not sure how "taking the piss" is incompatible with punk. Or is it too punk to be punk?"

The people in the bands were not punks, they were making music in the style of punk.

".... how is it even debatable that the Rezillos were a punk band?"

Because they were formed in '76 and their main influences were glam rather than punk. Fwiw I'm not necessarily saying that I would exclude them personally but there are some who would - hell there are some who would exclude The Stranglers or even The Vibrators on far flimsier pretexts!

"If these groups aren't punk what are they then? Are the Pork Dukes a folk band?"

Alberto Y Los Trios Paranoias were a bunch of actors / comedians taking off punk (cf: Spinal Tap or Bad News). The Pork Dukes were / are a bunch of session musicians using punk as a pretext to indulge in some rather lame and inane lavatory humour.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Pashmina is absolutely OTM incidentally

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

q: were the main influences of punk bands punk then? and if, so how did it get there?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 21 June 2003 05:32 (twenty-one years ago)

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