stuff that's utterly irrelevant now, but was critically lauded 10 years ago

Oy, I'm a moron.

Of course the whole: Spin voted Bandwagonesque album of the year the year Nevermind came out. The horror!
But I actually would keep that Teenage Fanclub album over Nevermind anyday.

Walt Mink
Helmet
Basehead
Buffalo Tom
L7
Arrested Development
Neneh Cherry

How about Urban Dance Squad? Were they critically lauded?

I still listen to Bandwagonesque, and I never much got into Nevermind.

I never understood the buzz over Teenage Fanclub.

The answer is Pearl Jam. Hands down.

S*M*A*S*H* owns this thread.

Are you seriously suggesting, Maria, that Urban Dance Squad are relevant today?

to add to the list:
Bjork

Well, maybe its relevant to you, but I sure don't hear any of today's practitioners of the very sound UDS helped define giving them even the slightest semblance of credit for it.

And don't misinterpret me, goddammit. Never once did I say "UDS SUCKS!" I saw them about five times around the release of Mental Floss... and even own their second album (though I couldn't tell you when the last time I played it was). The question is whether they remain "relevant," and the answer is sadly a resounding "no."

Pearl Jam and Arrested Development = two of the most relevant bands to the music scene today!

Pearl Jam = main inspiration for Creed, The Calling, Nickelback, etc.

Arrested Development = largely responsible for "concious" Hip-Hop falling out of favour with both the Gangsta/Playa Rap mainstream (what with Arrested Development now being a punch-line on the same level as Gospel-Rap as far as mainstream Rap fans are concerned) and critics (exagerated adulation for the Arrested Development album -> fear of praising anything else remotley resembling it)

Remember, kids- relevance != good

And Tom Morello playing Poison covers is where it needs to be at.

Well duh. The BACKLASH against it, however, does not.

Idiots are not made, they're born.

Depends on what you mean by bunch. I think we can agree that it takes more than one person.

You don't see UDS albums being re-mastered and re-appraised, though, do you? You don't see their name cropping up on "Secret Histories of Influential Rock" tomes do you? I'm not saying they don't deserve to, but it seems they've been seemingly forgotten. Maybe it's because they're Dutch.

Gotta go with the De La. 3 Feet High and Falling...

Sure they were, as they were "new" and "up & coming." Twelve years later, however, they're neither, and to add insult to injury, they are rarely if ever cited within the annals of rock lore when the rap-rock phenom is discussd.

Yes, NIN were lauded. Trent's never been condemned by the mainstream rock press, other than to say that "The Fragile" treaded water a bit.

Giant Sand - Swerve
Anne Richmond - The Big House of Time
L.A. Star - "the streetwise Star imbues her debut album, Poetess, with fiercely declaimed inner-city reality and kickin' beats"
Scott Morgan - "has been making A-one Motor City mayhem laced with gritty R&B for three decades"
Sid and B-Tonn - Caught 'Em Off Guard
Blood Oranges - Corn River
Eye and I - "the band is now working on its debut for Epic, which with any luck will include its brilliant acid-soul version of the Velvet Underground's 'Venus in Furs'"

Semi-related, all the BRC bands (lots of whom I worked with) and were all over the place in late 80s-early 80s have mostly disappeared. They all seemed to suffer from same problem, great live shows but no idea of how to transfer that to vinyl - see the dire BRC complilation as prime example.

Thankfully.

Ugh - gawky angst ridden 6th form poetry from an 80s wannabe. I always preferered Bauhausdepechesistersofmercy.... you know, the ones they based their entire pitiful act on.

Toe-curlingly vile. But funny, too.

Well, actually the UDS catalog did get remastered. Each album was also accompanied by a live CD from the relevant tour.

Sadly, they had already slipped back out of print before your remark was posted.

So, your comment still stands.

Thread renamed to: "C90s - Fans vs. Anti-Fans: FITE!!"
m.

John Cage in "Silence" quotes a 50's music critic reprimanding Cage for championing Satie, basically saying "If he's so great then why isn't he being programmed? He's been dead for decades, why isn't everyone listening to him?"

i love that dood. are they any good? who else is in it? do they have an album? what does it sound like? huh? huh? huh?

NYC to thread. i've seen them once. gonna see em tonight.

ian from don cab + ty braxton (anthony's son) + guy from lync... good, yet different in a way i was not completely sold on.

not amrep... ambient+rock+noodles. +(++jazz?) = (post-rock from unusual suspects?)
m.

er...only if "basically" means giving two albums by them no grades whatsoever. (check his '90s book if you doubt me.) (and sorry, i had to answer one misconception here, just to make shakey happy. though he is correct in guessing that i am amused by many of the groups on this thread who people seem to believe were once critics's darlings.)

They were in my copy.

And I still get Grant Lee Buffalo confused with Buffalo Tom.

people still insist on their relevance, mr.snrub. at least in the u.k. they do. much to the world's bewilderment.

1. Hole: Live Through This (DGC) 1552 (121)
4. Nirvana: MTV Unplugged in New York (DGC) 552 (50)
12. Green Day: Dookie (Reprise) 368 (35)

I do still have an old EP with Beck's "Loser" on it, however.

makes it relevant to me.

What about PM Dawn--OK, a little more than 10 years ago but in the ballpark. They strike me as extremely irrelevant now, in fact I tried to listen to that first one they did a few weeks ago and I couldn't believe how difference that decade has made. I miss those years.

Also that Neil Young album doesn't get much cred, which I don't get. "Western Hero" into the 14 minute long archetypical Crazy Horse jam "Change Your Mind" more than justifies its relevance.

OTM, what moron said the MELVINS?

Portishead's "Dummy" is still a regular in all those "best albums of all time" lists though.

For example, given the current artists Pearl Jam, Portishead, Pavement {and that's just the P's!} obviously influenced, do they really have no bearing on or connection with the today's music?

I should have asked: "How are we defining utterly irrelevant?" and meant to write (obv.) "...no bearing on or connection with today's music?"

But I suppose you already knew that.

It is only 8 years ago that The Avalanches were critically lauded.

The 1998 Pazz & Jop Critics Poll

Albums
1. Lucinda Williams: Car Wheels on a Gravel Road (Mercury) 2129 (167)
2. Lauryn Hill: The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill (Ruffhouse/Columbia) 1985 (176)
3. Bob Dylan: Live 1966 (Columbia/Legacy) 1333 (111)
4. Billy Bragg & Wilco: Mermaid Avenue (Elektra) 1243 (113)
5. Elliott Smith: XO (DreamWorks) 940 (91)
6. OutKast: Aquemini (LaFace) 890 (71)
7. PJ Harvey: Is This Desire? (Island) 788 (76)
8. Air: Moon Safari (Carolinie) 665 (66)
9. Beastie Boys: Hello Nasty (Grand Royal) 645 (64)
10. Rufus Wainwright: Rufus Wainwright (DreamWorks) 626 (61)
11. Beck: Mutations (DGC) 624 (66)
12. R.E.M.: Up (Warner Bros.) 580 (58)
13. Belle and Sebastian: The Boy with the Arab Strap (Matador) 547 (56)
14. Hole: Celebrity Skin (DGC) 531 (52)
15. Neutral Milk Hotel: In the Aeroplane Over the Sea (Merge) 520 (44)
16. Massive Attack: Mezzanine (Virgin) 508 (52)
17. Liz Phair: Whitechocolatespaceegg (Matador/Capitol) 491 (49)
18. Elvis Costello with Burt Bachrach: Painted from Memory (Mercury) 462 (44)
19. Garbage: Version 2.0 (Almo Sounds) 439 (44)
20. Mercury Rev: Deserter's Songs (V2) 418 (42)
21. Madonna: Ray of Light (Maverick/Warner Bros.) 408 (43)
22. Pulp: This Is Hardcore (Island) 391 (44)
23. Cat Power: Moon Pix (Matador) 336 (31)
24. Black Star: Mos Def and Talib Kweli Are Black Star (Rawkus) 329 (31)
25. Quasi: Featuring "Birds" (Up) 319 (33)
26. Jay-Z: Vol. 2 . . . Hard Knock Life (Roc-a-Fella/Def Jam) 306 (26)
27. Vic Chesnutt: The Salesman and Bernadette (Capricorn) 299 (27)
28. Bruce Springsteen: Tracks (Columbia) 263 (24)
29. Gang Starr: Moment of Truth (Noo Trybe) 255 (26)
30. Eels: Electro-Shock Blues (DreamWorks) 246 (23)
31. Ozomatli: Ozomatli (Almo Sounds) 245 (26)
32. Robert Wyatt: Shleep (Thirsty Ear) 232 (23) *
33. Gillian Welch: Hell Among the Yearlings (Almo Sounds) 229 (22)
34. Monster Magnet: Powertrip (A&M) 224 (20)
35. Sheryl Crow: The Globe Sessions (A&M) 224 (20)
36. Rancid: Life Won't Wait (Epitaph) 201 (22)
37. Cornelius: Fantasma (Matador) 199 (20)
38. Pernice Brothers: Overcome by Happiness (Sub Pop) 196 (17)
39. Olu Dara: In the World: From Natchez to New York (Atlantic) 191 (18)
40. Marilyn Manson: Mechanical Animals (Nothing/Interscope) 190 (19)

This poll combines ballots from 496 critics, who divided 100 points among 10 1998 albums. Maximum per album: 30. Minimum: 5. Points determined placement, with total mentions (indicated in parentheses) used for tie breaking.

*Includes 1997 import votes: 57 (5).

Singles
1. Fatboy Slim: "The Rockafeller Skank" (Skint/Astralwerks) 110
2. Lauryn Hill: "Doo Wop (That Thing)" (Ruffhouse/Columbia) 102
3. Beastie Boys: "Intergalactic" (Grand Royal) 84
4. Madonna: "Ray of Light" (Maverick/Warner Bros.) 76
5. Aaliyah: "Are You That Somebody" (Atlantic) 70
6. OutKast: "Rosa Parks" (LaFace) 50
7. Hole: "Celebrity Skin" (Geffen) 48
8. Fastball: "The Way" (Hollywood) 40
9. Jay-Z: "Hard Knock Life" (Rock-a-Fella/Def Jam) 39
10. Natalie Imbruglia: "Torn" (RCA) 35
11. Pras: "Ghetto Supastar" (Interscope) 34
12. Big Punisher Featuring Joe: "Still Not a Player" (Loud/RCA) 32
13. New Radicals: "You Get What You Give" (MCA) 40
14. Brandy and Monica: "The Boy Is Mine" (Arista) 29
Semisonic: "Closing Time" (MCA) 29
16. Stardust: "Music Sounds Better with You" (Roule/Virgin) 28
17. Sheryl Crow: "My Favorite Mistake" (A&M) 27
18. Marilyn Manson: "The Dope Show" (Nothing) 25
19. Alanis Morissette: "Thank U" (Maverick/Reprise) 24
20. Jay-Z: "Can I Get a . . ." (Roc-a-Fella/Def Jam) 22
21. Harvey Danger: "Flagpole Sitta" (Slash) 21
22. Shania Twain: "You're Still the One" (Mercury) 20
23. Propellerheads Featuring Shirley Bassey: "History Repeating" (Wall of Sound import) 19 *
24. Barenaked Ladies: "One Week" (Reprise) 18
Hole: "Malibu" (DGC) 18

http://www.blogguelph.com/uploaded_images/Bare-Naked-Ladies-707462.JPG

it's always funny to me to look back at how VH1 the pazz & jop singles were in the late 90s, considering that now it's usually as indie as the albums lists

Define "irrelevant..." The most of that P&J list is really good.

Somehow Cornershop came to mind for me right away, although I still like "Brimful Of Asha."

It is only 8 years ago that The Avalanches were critically lauded.

Suggest Ban Permalink
― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:55 PM Bookmark

Uh, you do realize that lots of stuff that's pretty clearly Avalanches-influenced is being highly praised at the moment?

These are the most irrelevant feeling to me:

9. Beastie Boys: Hello Nasty (Grand Royal) 645 (64)
11. Beck: Mutations (DGC) 624 (66)
15. Neutral Milk Hotel: In the Aeroplane Over the Sea (Merge) 520 (44)
19. Garbage: Version 2.0 (Almo Sounds) 439 (44)
24. Black Star: Mos Def and Talib Kweli Are Black Star (Rawkus) 329 (31)
30. Eels: Electro-Shock Blues (DreamWorks) 246 (23)
31. Ozomatli: Ozomatli (Almo Sounds) 245 (26)
34. Monster Magnet: Powertrip (A&M) 224 (20)
35. Sheryl Crow: The Globe Sessions (A&M) 224 (20)
40. Marilyn Manson: Mechanical Animals (Nothing/Interscope) 190 (19)

Organic sounding instrumental funk with world influences is definitely not a big part of the music landscape today...

st Ban Permalink
― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:55 PM Bookmark

Uh, you do realize that lots of stuff that's pretty clearly Avalanches-influenced is being highly praised at the moment?

Suggest Ban Permalink
― The Reverend, Thursday, March 19, 2009 6:54 AM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol kill me anh oo h nosw

1. Hole: Live Through This (DGC) 1552 (121)
7. Hole: "Celebrity Skin" (Geffen) 48
Hole: "Malibu" (DGC) 18

holy wtfwtf^^^

there's nothing wtf about hole being critically acclaimed at all

yep. Altho I would ran 'Celebrity Skin' much higher than 'Live Through This'.

me three

Feels like billions of indie kids are on Neutral Milk Hotel's dick these days but relevant is a pretty fluid term here I spose

NME albums poll from 1999. Take your picks as to which of these is the most irrelevant.

1. The Flaming Lips – The Soft Bulletin
2. Shack – HMS Fable
3. Super Furry Animals – Guerrilla
4. Death In Vegas – The Contino Sessions
5. Beck – Midnite Vultures
6. Campag Velocet – Bon Chic Bon Genre
7. Pavement – Terror Twilight
8. Mogwai – Come One Die Young
9. The Folk Implosion – One Part Lullaby
10. Smog – Knock Knock
11. Basement Jaxx – Remedy
12. Underworld – Beaucoup Fish
13. Godspeed You Black Emperor! – Slow Riot For New Zero Kanada
14. Make Up – Save Yourself
15. Eminem – The Slim Shady LP
16. Jim O’rourke – Eureka
17. Ol’ Dirty Bastard – N***A Please
18. Bonnie Prince Billy – I See Darkness
19. Blur – 13
20. The Charlatans – Us And Us Only
21. Tindersicks – Simple Pleasure
22. Low – Secret Name
23. Add N To X – Avant Hard
24. Leftfield – Rhythm And Stealth
25. TLC – Fanclub
26. Low – Christmas
27. Royal Trux – Veterans Of Disorder
28. Love As Laughter – Distination 2000
29. The All Seeing I – Pickled Eggs & Sherbet
30. Ian Brown – Golden Greats
31. Gorky’s Zygotic Mynci – Spanish Dance Troupe
32. Sizzla – Royal Son Of Ethiopia
33. Mouse On Mars – Niun Niggung
34. The Chemical Bruthers – Surrender
35. Pole – Pole 2
36. The Beta Band – The Beta Band
37. Roots Manuva – Brand New Second Hand
38. U-Ziq – Royal Astronomy
39. Kevin Rowland – My Beauty
40. Travis – The Man Who
41. Future Pilot AKA – Future Pilot AKA VS. A Galaxy Of Sounds
42. Stereolab – Cobra And Phases Group Play Voltage In The Milky Night
43. Sebadoh – The Sebadoh
44. …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of The Dead – Madonna
45. The Auteures – How I Learned To Love The Bootboys
46. Damien Jurado – Rehearsals For The Departure
47. Rage Againsed The Machine – The Battle Of Los Angeles
48. Clinton – Disco And The Halfway To Discontent
49. Papa M – Live From A Shark Cage
50. Missy Elliott – Da Real World

I actually think that between 10-15 years old is about as far as any record can get from relevance as far as fashion trends go but I can't see many of the above ever actually coming back.

Annoyingly The Soft Bulletin feels by miles the most relevant record in that top 10.

I'd say Guerilla but I'm OD'ing on SFA at the moment.

You could say Guerilla but you'd be wrong, whereas that whole MGMT plus copyists scene comes pretty much directly from The Soft Bulletin.

Campag, obv, but that was irrelev about 10 mins later, werenit?

Agree re; MGMT I guess. I've just managed to completely avoid them. I don't know what they sound like.

Add N to X seem pretty relevant as in having kinda pioneered that whole thing Justice is doing these days

however, that Smog album is probably the only thing I'd wanna listen to on this list.

Contino Sessions by DiV may just have invented discopunk.

I still love that Make-Up album.

i still regularly listen to shack, future pilot aka and L/A/L albums from the '99 list

ODB and BPB are also good records.

Contino Sessions by DiV may just have invented discopunk.

reaching.jpg

Yes, well.

13. Godspeed You Black Emperor! – Slow Riot For New Zero Kanada

never knew why NME left out 'Middle Of Nowhere' in that 99 list

There's still tons of bands biting that Godspeed record sonewhat, whether or not you think they're 'relevant' is another matter

xpost Orbital or Hanson?

the distance between bands like Late Of The Pier and Campag Velocet doesn't seem that great

GYBE seemed like the most relevant thing ever at the time (when I was 16), but that whole post-rock thing has become increasingly irrelevant over the last few years (for me anyway) to the point where it is just a bit embarrassing. I used to listen all that climactic post-rock religiously back then and then just went off it totally as I started listening to more outright droney stuff. The genre seems more and more like a dead end these days, despite a handful of semi-decent post-metal bands.

Trail of Dead were another band I was big into in '99, but I can't see that they were or indeed are very relevant at all.

Contino Sessions was playing the stripped-down Motorik beats long before any band today claims that "Krautrock was always an influence"

It was also the last good thing Bobby Gillespie/ Iggy pop ever did.

not sure its relevant today, but it hasn't aged badly.

Yeah I don't think their thing was to really nail a style in that same way - if anything it's probably a credit to them that there isn't reams of ...TOD ripoffs.

Yeah I don't have a lot of time for build'n'payoff 'epic' 'shimmery' instrumental rock either but I think you've got to keep a certain feeling of "did I change or was it you" in mind - like GYBE have always got a pretty raw deal on ILM and I think talk about them in the board's early years would maybe tend to how they're not actually that diff't from Swans and Savage Republic and other dramatic 80s bands, courtesy of people who are old enough to remember

(XP)

Add N to X seem pretty relevant as in having kinda pioneered that whole thing Justice is doing these days

Um, no. I think you have them confused with Daft Punk/Chemical Bros.

Stuff on that list that feels relevant now:

Flaming Lips, Jaxx (just coming back into relevance maybe), Bonnie Prince Billy, Eminem, TLC, Pole, Missy, maybe Sizzla. That Travis record still casts a pretty big shadow for helping pave the way for Coldplay if nothing else.

Oh and Surrender and Brand New Second Hand as well.

There's so much sort of plateau indie on it, isn't there? Sebadoh Smog Stereolab Tindersticks Low etttttttttttccccc. Sixth album modest career types. Not like now...

FWIW I think that's Smog's best album, with the possible exception of Red Apple Falls. Depends a lot on whether you like Smog I guess!

But yeah, your point holds generally, DJ Mencap.

Not a dis at all! I either like all those or have done at some point

The 1999 NME list is pretty good ... Sizzla and Pole? On an NME list? I'd totally forgotten about that. At the time I was probably just thrilled that Mogwai finished so high (although nobody talks about that album anymore, even Mogwai fans.)

a few stream-of-conscious notes about this that i wrote at work, so sorry if it's badly written.

i felt 99 was a really wishy washy year for music. it's the year i started uni and i just couldn't abide a large chunk of what the campus kids were listening to.

i could understand the appeal of ibiza trance although the scene was abhorrent to me - tacky, and vacuous as a scene but not without some appeal. i didn't really come round to uk garage until the advent of grime/dubstep. too mid-paced and skippy for me, i didn't know how to dance to it and people like craig david weren't good icons for it.

there were megastars - j-lo, eminem, lisa lopez, macy gray etc. all seem very irrelevant now.

i think during that time i was listening to albums by more established bands. beastie boys' 'hello nasty', which is probably as irrelevant as it gets these days, but then that band have always had a habit of flitting between relevance and obscurity every few years. 'hello nasty' was a great album and it set a marker for the genre-hopping of years to come. pavement's album was good too, but got mixed reviews. also i was listening to a lot of warp records stuff and the idm scene was really good at that stage, although it went awry shortly after 2001.

one thing that i missed was avalanches and i think their relevance, particularly with regards to things like air france and quiet village.

when i think about music in different years, i like to think of things as an overall musical climate with trends and attitudes working as a vague hivemind. the biggest development in the 00's for me was the rise of the mashup, and the rediscovery of postpunk and electro which have trickled into so many nooks and crannies of the musical spectrum now we barely notice them.

1998-2000 was a last gasp before these developments happened and so we were still very much thinking about breaks rather than beats, sampled grooves rather than synth melodies etc.

also i remember a lot of the music coming out had a very consumerist edge - a "who cares" attitude to anything overtly arty, political or counter-cultural; with an emphasis on partying and looking flash being a must. Students were more interested in going to Ayia Napa than protesting student fees, and with a lack of anything tangibly political or environmental to rail against (Bosnia, wtf?) it was more about the hair gel and the shiny suits. The angriest music by far was Eminem, but his problems stemmed from a domestic/personal rather than global POV.

The 1998 Pazz & Jop Critics Poll

Just how relevant is Pazz & Jop of the critics' taste in general? I have the impression that Pazz & Jop has a considerably larger R&B bias than most music critics lists do.

Battles and 65DOS are the only bands that I can relate to post-rock and they're really different to Mogwai/GYBE

from my pov there were actually several things taking off in '99 from various angles so it felt the v opposite of wishy-washy most of the time. it's the year i finished college tho, dunno if that means anything. i still think of it as a more exciting time than

those things ranging from Neptunes boom to nu-metal (maybe the anger was both less entertaining and less convincing then Eminem's granted, or indeed DMX's) to the 2 Step/Grime pop crossover to mash-ups (there were 'Intergalactic' and Stardust bootlegs doing the rounds before 2 Many DJs) to cool French dance to various Warp stuff - my year was dominated by the all the big UK dance albums tho. i picked up on 'Jaguar' right at the end of the year but wish i'd heard 'Neptune's Lair' at the time. lots of great pop dance tunes from this time that have been kinda forgotten tho (Xpander! The Jag! That Sound!).

I know there was a big trance craze in 1999, but it was never really critically lauded. Rather, it was around that moment that the critics really started to dislike trance.

i like O Rourke making #16 there.

but.. Campag Velocet – Bon Chic Bon Genre
never heard of this.

Imagine Billy Bragg fronting Frankie goes to hollywood...

music != clothes

one man bands are still relevant imo

2. Shack – HMS Fable

Never heard of this.

Shack may have paved the way for The Script and Glasvegas...not sure how they'd feel about that

Shack were doing classic 60's (Love, Beatles, etc.) influenced guitar pop. That CD sounds a little Oasis-y in the production, and is more upbeat than their usual, but I don't think it's any more or less relevant now than it was then. Oh, and it's a great album.

xp It was the guy from the Pale Fountains wasn't it? Scouse jangle-pop that the NME went mad over for about 5mins.

Not really sure how Shack paved the way for The Script or Glasvegas at all, Steve.

I have the impression that Pazz & Jop has a considerably larger R&B bias than most music critics lists do.

― Geir Hongro, Thursday, March 19, 2009

LOL you would

"bias"

Campag Velocet were a British Indie rock band who were at their peak during the late 1990s. The band's musical style was influenced by bands such as Primal Scream, and at the time were lumped into an indie dance genre which then included bands such as Lo Fidelity Allstars and Regular Fries.
(Wikipedia)

wow this has to be the biggest FAIL genre ever. (Regular Fries!?! Lo Fiedelity Allstars vagueley ring a bell, but i think i'm confusing with a Radiohead goes dub project)

was that what they called 'skunk rock'?

yes

http://www.electricroulette.com/2008/06/the-90s-golden.html

haven't read it but looks like confirmation

xp

Lo Fi Allstars actually were pretty good. Regular Fries had two good tunes. Campag Velocet were... actually quite bizarre, shameful fun. I still have the album. I seem to remember there being one tune that was pretty cool. What was the singer called? Pete Veidt? Vetch? He carried his pudding-bowl haircut, square jaw, and Clockwork Orange affectations with compellingly amusing sincerity.

he has a new band called The Count these days. (no Wikipedia-page!)

Pete Voss. I still like that album, I didn't know anyone else who liked them even then. (I liked Terris too, although that one doesn't really stand up, and probably should never have been released.)

The Terris debut EP was pretty cool. I saw them live a few times and they were alright. The album was pretty horrific, though.

These are the most irrelevant feeling to me:
11. Beck: Mutations (DGC) 624 (66)
15. Neutral Milk Hotel: In the Aeroplane Over the Sea (Merge) 520 (44)

Feels like billions of indie kids are on Neutral Milk Hotel's dick these days but relevant is a pretty fluid term here I spose

If any of Beck's music feels "irrelevant," it's the stuff he's released in this decade.. The vocal melodies on Mutations still sound great to me, and I think "Diamond Bollocks" specifically sounds better to me now than it ever did. I wish he would put out more stuff that sounds like that song instead of these boring-as-fuck Danger Mouse collabs.

And to echo some dude's comment, NMH seems to be getting more respect now than they ever have.. If some want to call that "dick-riding" because it's not your kind of music, then be my guest..

relevant may be a fluid term but I feel like it should carry a greater significance than just any one person going "still sounds good to me!"

relevance = digging up the old "influence" horse for one more beating...

still sounds good to me is the only signifier, dude...

well then what should i say? whether we're marking the tag in either direction, it's still going to be one person's opinion.

well, one person saying "I see a lot of indications that other critics and artists still listen to this record" is a stronger case for relevance than "I don't know about you guys but I still bump this shit"

Isn't the NMH 33 1/3 book like their best selling one? Kind of hard to argue their irrelevant if that's the case.

I was thinking that too (about the 33 1/3 book).. I just don't feel like citing references.

I've had two people I don't know from Adam contact me in the last couple of months begging me to reconsider that album, purely based on my bashing of it via Stylus ages ago.

As far as guitar music critical consensus on the 90s goes, surely the NMH record is up there with 'Ok Computer' and 'Nevermind' as stone cold classics. I thought every corny indie dude has to go through some rite of passage Jeff Mangum/Elephant 6 worship.

No idea about that. I've always hated that record. I was surprised when I heard the 33 1/3 stats frankly. I would have hoped it was irrelevant now.

I thought every corny indie dude has to go through some rite of passage Jeff Mangum/Elephant 6 worship.

^^^ this is actually what made me realize I wasn't an corny indie dude

i love the idea that people are desperately e-mailing Nick asking him to reconsider his position on NMH, like they're worried he won't get into heaven if he doesn't repent now

Neutral Milk Heaven.

They'll be making Jack Chick-style pamphlets for him next.

How do I reply to an email like that? One guy went on and on about how he loved Laughing Stock so much and the only other album he liked as much was NMH so I must SURELY love it too. How to reply? "I'm sorry but I think it's tuneless wailing shit?"

Well, yeah.

hahaha just send that

No idea about that. I've always hated that record. I was surprised when I heard the 33 1/3 stats frankly. I would have hoped it was irrelevant now.

I like it well enough. It just seems that a lot of the straight up mid-twenties indie people I know (and this is in the UK btw and partly includes myself), had this kind of trajectory where as a teenager they listened to like Nirvana/Green Day/Foo Fighters and then later either got into Fugazi/hardcore or post-rock or both, and then from there got big into Shellac and math rock and then Captain Beefheart and eventually wound up listening to Neutral Milk Hotel/Circulatory System/Olivia Tremor Control etc, before going off on there own tangent. Obviously very personal experience, but I just see it replicated in a lot of people who I know in bands now or that I grew up with.

Didn't 'Mutations' start the whole 'indie boys haplessly attempt tropicalia' trend?

Okay.. so "Acclaimedmusic.Net" says that Mutations appears in the following, which are all probably boring rags that I will never read and would probably rather use for toilet paper...

Magnet (USA) - 10th Anniversary Issue, Top 60 Albums 1993-2003
Mojo (UK) - The 100 Greatest Albums of Our Lifetime 1993-2006 (2006)
Mojo (UK) - The Mojo Collection, 3rd and/or 4th Edition (2003/2007)
Rolling Stone (Germany) - The 100 Best Albums Since Autumn 1994 (2003)
The Movement (New Zealand) - The 101 Best Albums of the 90s (2004)

I still don't see how citing these makes a record any more "relevant" than just using your head to figure out the difference between music that still sounds fresh and music that once sounded good and got boring over repeated listens.

xp is Mutations really as good as that post makes it sound?

i thought i was a corny indie fuxxor but i'd never heard Neutral Milk Hotel until like two weeks ago and i do not understand all the fuss over that record

Honestly, no. But my original case was that Beck's more recent records will likely be considered less relevant in the future.

Mutations is way better than his Danger Mouse collabs.. thats what I said, and I stand by it.

not trying to shut anyone up, but discussions about "relevance" are sort of the ILM equivalent of an racism thread.

NMH is the worst shit i've ever heard rly

peace

i'm not disagreeing with you, i don't particularly like Mutations but i'll take it over any of his recent albums easy and i'm sure it'll be remembered more fondly than whatever that one was called? Modern Guilt? i dunno

I personally don't know a single human who dislikes NMH, and I'm cool with you all hating it as I believe its goodness to be average and not the #4 album of the 90's that Pitchfork claimed it was.

oh GOD Modern Guilt sucks so much

silly me for getting tricked because I passed over Guero and thought "well, I'm not doing THAT again"; when will I learn that Beck is best when prescreened

Shack were doing classic 60's (Love, Beatles, etc.) influenced guitar pop. That CD sounds a little Oasis-y in the production,

hence why the bands latest releases have all come out on sour mash records. noel has been bankrolling them for years.

As far as guitar music critical consensus on the 90s goes, surely the NMH record is up there with 'Ok Computer' and 'Nevermind' as stone cold classics.

I do not agree that any NMH recording has anything approaching the canonical status of OK Computer or Nevermind.

Hmmm you are probably right that was maybe a bit overstated.

Still I reckon its importance is significant enough within a certain sphere that it is far from irrelevant.

yeah, if we were to say there were 2 separate canons for rock records that sold millions and rock records that were simply big in the indie community, NMH would be pretty far up there in the latter

I mean all that post-rock stuff seems to have reached this definite cul de sac. I don't see that anyone will come along and really revolutionize the genre at this stage and I don't think that many musicians in other genres are really taking inspiration from it anymore (pace Isis). But NMH I reckon is still an influence on a bunch of people making indie music and I think if you were to do a classic indie rock album of the 90s poll it would definitely be up there. But you know its just my gut feeling - I have no hard scientific proof!

I do not agree that any NMH recording has anything approaching the canonical status of OK Computer or Nevermind.

It was ranked #1 on Magnet's Top 60 of 1993-2003, so there is (or was) a not insignificant bloc of indie fans who do think it's as canonical as they come ...

http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/Current/magnet2003.htm

Ah ha there you go...

'relevant' seems like a value-neutral term to me, as in 'stuff that people starting bands today still try to sound sort of like, or end up sounding like by default'. by that measure, from where i sit, NMH are still very relevant and beck not at all

not trying to shut anyone up, but discussions about "relevance" are sort of the ILM equivalent of an racism thread.

― if the robot is quicker, I'll allow it to service me. (jjjusten), Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:38 PM (33 minutes ago)

ding ding ding ding ding

The best answer to this from the P&J above seems to me to be Marilyn Manson. That guy was absolutely huge for a while (even critically evidently), and is now gone, both in sales and in influence. I guess the influence faded with nu-metal's recession?

But NMH I reckon is still an influence on a bunch of people making indie music and I think if you were to do a classic indie rock album of the 90s poll it would definitely be up there

So do people think Cornelius, Quasi, Mercury Rev, and the Pernice Brothers are still relevant? (I don't, but I'm pretty sure I never thought they were relevant in the first place, so I don't count.)

I think the point is that it's a specific bloc of indie fans as opposed to "guitar music critical consensus", Barry.

I'm not even debating whether or not it's 'relevant' (a fairly fuzzy and uninteresting concept to me). I'm debating the statement that the NMH album is on the same level of canonization as OK Computer or Nevermind.

Hmmm you are probably right that was maybe a bit overstated.

― ears are wounds, Thursday, 19 March 2009 16:51 (Yesterday) Bookmark

tried to answer the question then realised i have no idea what the current trends are any more and thus have no idea what is relevant, it might be the Birdie Song for all I know.

On NMH-- A Religion prof at my school is teaching that album. Don't know if that makes it any more or less irrelevant. Also, there were a bunch of 10th anniversary pieces about it in places like Slate.

So do people think Cornelius, Quasi, Mercury Rev, and the Pernice Brothers are still relevant? (I don't, but I'm pretty sure I never thought they were relevant in the first place, so I don't count.)

Cornelius yes, insofar as he still puts out interesting, fresh records IMO. Didn't Mercury Rev put out a supposed "return to form" record recently?

"Aeroplane Over the Sea" like the "Forever Changes" of the 90s. A bit more cultish, but loved with an intensity that might surpass the Pet Sounds, Neverminds, OK Computers and Revolvers.

Fwiw, I can think of plenty of artists make good records but who I don't consider especially relevant to the music world at large, and artists who make bad records who I do consider relevant. One variable doesn't necessarily depend on the other; never has.

And the news that that Neutral Milk Hotel album has been canonized on a level with the records it's being compared to above is news to me; first time I've ever heard anybody make such a claim, though a lot of people seem to agree about it here. So who knows, maybe I just don't run in the right circles.

This Neutral Milk Hotel stuff is mentalism, a bit like when people turn up on threads about universally-loved pop bands and go "hey surely everyone loves Yo La Tengo, right?"

I mean, I can see why you might think that way, but possibly only if you read nothing but Pitchfork and can't see anything of the wider world without your black-rimmed glasses on.

i loved NMH and indeed saw them both times they played london, BITD. but its not rose-tinted glasses to say they have a pretty huge influence on a swathe of bands now, nor that the album isn't really important to a certani strand of indie-kid who wasn't of record-buying age when 'aeroplane' was first released. i mean, those two albums have rarely been out of print, and 'aeroplane' got rereleased on domino a couple of years back.

nb i think 'relevence' is mostly critical bullshit btw

I mean, I can see why you might think that way,

Well, ten years around Chapel Hill is what has informed that impression in me. But to take a slightly larger sample of the black-rimmed glasses world:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ametafilter.com+%22neutral+milk+hotel%22&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ametafilter.com+%22ok+computer%22&btnG=Search

metafilter has half again as many references to NMH than OK Computer.

I think bendy is otm with his Forever Changes comment, although I wish I hadn't made the comment putting NMH side-by-side with Ok Computer now, especially as I don't care for 'In the Aeroplane...' too much myself these days (and I don't read nor have I ever read Pitchfork). But seriously the discussion started off as being is this critically lauded record from ten years ago utterly irrelevant and the answer when it comes to NMH is no definitely not. If anything its profile has probably increased judging by all these polls. And in ten or twenty years time, it will still retain its classic cult status, whereas no one will give a shit about Quasi or Mercury Rev or Shack (or even probably GYBE). I reckon you will always be able to find someone who will rep really hard for NMH or find a band who credits NMH as an influence.

But obviously as people have pointed out, this whole discussion hinges on the word "relevant", the definition of which no one is ever going to agree on anyway.

Even GYBE!

What next... Spoon? Giant Sand? Is nothing sacred?

Consign them all to the dustbin of history I say!!

Will even the mighty Wilco survive?

Not if I can help it...(actually I failed the indie exam owing to the fact that I have never knowingly listened to a Wilco track).

i blame this thread for the recent jump in people slsking campag and regular fries from me

are kings of leon the urge overkill of today?

ILM ironies reserved in 2018 for The Bug and Burial

This thread is awesome and everybody who's posted on it is a critical genius.

i really hate the whole debate of "relevance"

it reminds me of that seinfeld thing where george is happy with a woman he's dating but he can't rest until he knows if jerry thinks she's attractive.

^^^ http://www.analyzemath.com/cosine/cosine-1.gif

10 years ago when this thread started vs. 10 years ago now = me depressed

was jonathan fire* eater critically lauded 10 years ago? are they irrelevant now? love that ish

i really hate the whole debate of "relevance"

i think its really bogus, tbh, an entirely subjective quality that shitty music journalists pass off as faux-objectivism.

this thread's mix:
60% mocking of old indie canon
10% mocking of old take-your-medicine corny "life affirming" rap
30% discussion of actual subject of thread
neglible meta

"negligible"

+ trace spelling error correction

i'm more drawn to things that are irrelevant now, like i'm getting a sort of late admiration for pearl jam just cuz they keep on keepin' on, just like the old 70s rock bands did.

i bought this Baker Gurvitz Army record...it's Ginger from Cream and the dudes from Gun

the cover is them dressed up as sorta mongols or something and riding crazy looking horses, hold spears and stuff

totally irrelevant but pretty awesome

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/121/300460580_c307f4a02f.jpg?v=0

^^how could i NOT buy this? so cuet

wong kar wai

Not interested in "utterly irrelevant now" so much, but here's some UK indie bands that seemed to get a lot of critical attention a decade or so ago in a nextbigthing sense, but I basically never see mentioned today. Every period has its own obv.

These New Puritans
Temples
Swim Deep
Drenge
Peace
Superfood
Palma Violets
Wu Lyf (despite only doing the one thing)
Spector (awful band btw)
The Strypes (awful band btw)

Actually quite surprised Jungle don't seem to have gone the same way. I feel These New Puritans have had a raw deal - one of the few UK indie bands of the last, what, 20 years that even the usually sceptical were going crazy for. They and the Horrors' whole Southend thing was treated as fertile ground in a way I guess comparable to the Black Midi/Squid/Black Country New Road Brixton hoopla today. But the latter bunch have international followings because however it is us zoomers are supposed to operate (social media, spotify, rym/reddit/etc, memes, fantano, i don't know - whatever the combination, it wasn't a totally developed one back in the early 2010s).

Margus Kiis, estonian rock critic (Margus Kiis, estonian rock cri) at 5:01 14 Apr 03

Queen! -- most of the glory disappeared few years after Freddies death. In 1991 Queen was one of the most important bands in rock history, but now they are symbols of stupid camp.

They went through similar cycles when Freddie was still alive, too. They’ve had tremendous staying power.

yeah I read the whole thread and Queen was the biggest of several 'oh, but that was then's

GYBE/that style of post-rock is another. Unfortunately persevered very well.

xpost white horse-
i will still very much rep for the wu lyf album. durutti column meets fugazi. one and done. fucking perfect.

The movie helped obvs but I also guess Brian and Roger keeping the franchise going with various fake Freddies has, against all logic and odds, kept the interest alive. Also, Queen did have the skill to charm both the hard rock heads and your auntie who loves hearing Someone To Love or I Want To Break Free on the radio - they perhaps perfected the art of balancing being one of the most mainstream rock bands of all time whose ctalogue also has a fair amount of deep cuts and obscure lore. And, of course, all the movie soundtrack appearances.

I mean, if you told me in 1993 that Queen would usurp Led Zep as the ultimate classic rock band, I wouldn't believe you

I think it's not just movie syncs but also a lot of crossover into the Glee/American Idol world

this is even more wrong, posted just two years after Vespertine!

Horace Mann (Horace Mann) at 2:59 14 Apr 03

to add to the list:
Bjork

Wong Kar Wai squarely back in the canon

My eye passed way over Bjork. Shockin suggestion.

if you told me in 1993 that Queen would usurp Led Zep as the ultimate classic rock band, I wouldn't believe you

I would, already in 1993 it was clear that Led Zep was almost strictly a boomers memory. Queen had a string of hits well into the Gen X era, revival cred with Wayne’s World, etc. 30 years onwards, that’s the difference.

Acts that don’t manage to engineer a revival trend (even an ‘ironic’ one like ABBA), they disappear a generation earlier from the public mind.

Had Led Zep not already have their first revival already though? Not by their own doing - but mostly through Rick Rubin (via hip hop and the Cult).

Your challenge? Repetition of 'already'. Blasts.

Led Zeppelin have not put in the work to keep themselves actively in the public's mind the way Queen have. Yes, the catalog has been remastered and reissued (about a decade ago), but other than that one reunion concert with Jason Bonham on drums they have steadfastly refused to go the nostalgia-act/human-jukebox route, and they've probably turned down more licensing opportunities than they've accepted.

i sell more led zeppelin and pink floyd records then any records and it has been like that for the last 14 years. Queen doesn't come close. though Queen records sell well obviously. i know that's a vinyl thing but it is legit every age group and definitely not a boomers memory.

if you had a record store called ZepFloydBeatles and only sold those three bands you would probably do better than my store.

and if you added the grateful dead you would definitely do better than me. don't know how that would look on a sign though. those are the big 4 where i am. they slay all comers. i get them in by chance and i sometimes do wholesale orders for zepfloydbeatles just to keep the howling hordes at bay.

Also, shorter career, fewer hits.

Howling Hordes, now there's en erstwhile critical darling that seems to have gone AWOL.

Zep Floyd Beatles are essentially behemoths on their on own elite level - even amongst mega-selling classic rock artists - where visibility at any point in time doesn’t matter.

if you had a record store called ZepFloydBeatles and only sold those three bands you would probably do better than my store.

https://frinkiac.com/video/S09E13/Z4lCvUYgtRVcncWMwWkVumvA6A0=.gif

I would, already in 1993 it was clear that Led Zep was almost strictly a boomers memory. Queen had a string of hits well into the Gen X era, revival cred with Wayne’s World, etc. 30 years onwards, that’s the difference.

Acts that don’t manage to engineer a revival trend (even an ‘ironic’ one like ABBA), they disappear a generation earlier from the public mind.

― Siegbran, Sunday, October 8, 2023 3:29 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is totally wrong re led zepp. They were huge when I was in high school in the late 90s, were always cool. I think Queen just outperformed everybody in the last 20 years somewhat unexpectedly

I worked in CD stores between 1995 and 2005. Adjusting for the era, Scott otm: ZepFloydBeatlesDeadMarley(also hiphop, though no one artist maintained interest throughout those years). But even the 8th Graders just getting into Hendrix, Beatles, Floyd, had 0 interest in the Stones!

Hmm must be a US thing then?

I think something that's really helped Queen (and Bowie & Elton to a lesser extent) maintaining and expanding their audiences is the mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ+ artists. Queen is also a little less cancellable than their peers (hedonism yes, but not of the Jagger/Page variety).

I wouldn't necessarily equate vinyl sales with wider cultural currency. Not too mention that Zep has more classic album qua albums than Queen does. But for most people who don't really care about vinyl or even about albums, I would say Queen looms larger. At least my 11 year old kid is a Queen fan and I don't think he even knows who Zep are.

scott, I'd imagine Rumours does well too at your store?

Two profitable biopics helped Queen + Elton too. So did lockdown. This is anecdotal, but students have told me that when stuck indoors with parents they'd blast their record collection, which had lots of ZepFloydBeatles (and Radiohead).

Top 10 Led Zep Spotify streams = 110m to 878m
Top 10 Queen Spotify streams = 555m to 2.2B

Queen has FIVE songs over a billion to Zep's zero. They are out here lapping our problematic boys

I'm sure Lady Gaga being a fan of Freddie Mercury and Queen has helped.

Freddie as an icon fits now as someone a bit ahead of his time. How many times has that Amazon commercial with the girl buying the Freddie Mercury jacket been shown?

Yeah, she ain't Lady Crunge

Honestly, I roll my eyes at most of the millennial/zoomer "um actually Sade is better than the Clash" revisionist shit that powers the discourse now but in the case of Queen outpacing Led Zeppelin, you actually, in fact, love to see it

Another thing that is easily forgotten about Queen is that even during their lean years in the States and the UK, they were still pretty huge all over the rest of the world, and that has continued.

^^ yes, and that's the part I see in Miami. Many of my students' parents are Argentinian and Brazilian, where Queen filled stadiums.

^I can confirm this with the extensive anecdotal evidence I have accumulated at bilingual karaoke

Also Queen cross over to the Broadway musicals crowd in the way that Zep/Floyd don't. It's fun for all the family! Whatever you might think about The Wall it's not really fun for all the family, or in fact fun at all.

the 13 year old in our house is a Queen freak. i'm pretty sure she has never even heard of Led Zep.

Although I'll admit I don't know what whiney means by "um actually Sade is better than the Clash" revisionism.

damn millennials preferring good music

"scott, I'd imagine Rumours does well too at your store?"

I could sell it every day. If I had 365 copies to sell. I've sold hundreds probably! It's also one of those albums people buy even if they don't play records.

queen were still kinda everywhere in pop culture even 15 years ago - "we will rock you" and "we are the champions" were still inescapable at sports events, and "bohemian rhapsody" and "another one bites the dust" were still pretty prominent too. just more recently the biopic has pushed them even further to the forefront. they were one of the very first bands i really paid any attention to as a teen lol.

i think queen outshining led zeppelin etc. in the last 20 years in terms of pop cultural prominence comes down to how much more pop they could be. being a singles act with a large number of iconic singles makes it much easier to maintain a strong presence in pop culture.

the wu lyf guy's subsequent project (lost under heaven) has been way better than wu lyf but never got anywhere near the same hype

i admittedly haven't given the luh stuff a fair chance.

Whatever you might think about The Wall it's not really fun for all the family, or in fact fun at all.

...unless compared to the final cut.

I think this is a UK / US thing because I don’t think there’s any question of Queen being a bigger deal than Led Zep in the UK. Their Greatest Hits album is famously the biggest selling album of all time in the UK and a lot of people my age (20s) and older grew up with it. As ufo says, I think their continuing strength is probably largely down to pop-ness; the UK doesn’t have rock radio in the same way the US does so hearing Led Zep on the radio is a rarity, but you can bet your life the BBC stations and the commercial stations are going to play Queen every single day. Queen also love syncing their songs; they were the UK’s no 1 synced artist in 2014. There can’t have been many UK advert breaks in the last 10 years that didn’t contain one of their songs being used to flog detergent or something.

True. Another factor is that Queen had singles and therefore chart hits, which of course get radio play

I do think Queen's popularity with young ppl dovetails with the rehabilitation of Broadway musicals amongst the same demographic. Possibly because Rock and showtunes now feel equally of the past, perhaps.

Queen is also a little less cancellable than their peers (hedonism yes, but not of the Jagger/Page variety).

You can always bring up their tour of apartheid era South Africa to break some young hearts.

It feels like the apartheid stuff hasn't stuck to them in a gigantic way with the passage of time

Because American media will overwhelmingly broadcast the Israeli side.

lol wrong apartheid

I don't know if this is a UK thing or just a me thing (but I have known people here complain too) but Stairway to Heaven - overplayed? Outside of playing it myself I have maybe heard it little more than a handful of times in the last ten years or so. There are countless classic rock songs ahead of it, not least another few Zep tracks.

Now, how often I hear it mentioned is another matter.

Also yes was maybe going to mention Sun City earlier but I figured that cancelling might have already happened in some circles (not very big ones evidently).

It feels like the apartheid stuff hasn't stuck to them in a gigantic way with the passage of time

has it with anyone really (unfortunately)

i feel like maybe i hear it get brought up about paul simon the most just because he was particularly annoying about ignoring the boycott

I don't know if this is a UK thing or just a me thing (but I have known people here complain too) but Stairway to Heaven - overplayed? Outside of playing it myself I have maybe heard it little more than a handful of times in the last ten years or so. There are countless classic rock songs ahead of it, not least another few Zep tracks.

Now, how often I hear it mentioned is another matter.

― you can see me from westbury white horse, Monday, October 9, 2023 7:56 AM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

When I think of overplayed Led Zeppelin songs, Over the Hills and Far Away and Ramble On spring to mind first.

they used to play stairway to heaven all the time on classic rock radio but this was years ago. i first heard it on the radio when i was a kid. and my brother couldn't believe i hadn't heard it before. but that was the late 70s. maybe they stopped playing songs that long at some point. they used to play karn evil 9 a ton back then too. how long is that one? or how long is the part they would play on the radio anyway? its just a part of a dark carnival epic.

"Kashmir" is longer than "Stairway", and you hear that a bunch of classic rock radio these days. Same with "Free Bird" which is longer than both. "Hotel California" is in the ballpark, and that ain't going anywhere.

...And You Will Know Us by the Trail of Dead

;_;

Mmm wait not 10 years ago…

So from 2013… mmm:

Foxygen

hey used to play karn evil 9 a ton back then too. how long is that one? or how long is the part they would play on the radio anyway? its just a part of a dark carnival epic.

the radio single ("First Impression, Part Two") is about 5 minutes long. I always thought they recorded and separately indexed that part solely to be a radio single, since it really just repeats everything that went on in the second half of part one. fwiw I never really thought of Karn Evil 9 as a straight epic, all three parts are vastly different, it doesn't really cohere the way Tarkus or even Supper's Ready does

yeah, stairway to heaven is definitely more “heard of” than “heard” in the UK. It might even be true that the version by r**f h*rr*s was the most high-profile moment for the song here.
it’s like the old “play freebird!” joke, which I’ve heard a loads of gigs but it’s not actually a well-known song here at all. we just imported the joke.

"Stairway..." is more of a guitar shop joke though

https://media.tenor.com/I6lXAOBD4c8AAAAd/waynes-no-stairway-denied.gif

Lolling @ “Lady Crunge”

“When I think of overplayed Led Zeppelin songs, Over the Hills and Far Away and Ramble On spring to mind first.”

yep, same

Latest issue of National Geographic has a portrait of Brian May among the features on space exploration. The planets have aligned such that Queen intersects with a lot of very large subcultures.

Don't think I've ever Stairway all the way through or even most of it. Barely heard it at all out in the wild ever

Anecdotal and not the best metric, but Queen is by far the most popular classic rock band t-shirt being worn by students on the campus I work near. I'd say I see at least a couple of Queen shirts a day, followed by Bowie, Pink Floyd and the Dead, not sure the last time I saw a Led Zep shirt.

I was in the dentist's office the other day and the music piped in during my cleaning was "Freebird" followed by "Stairway" followed by "Bohemian Rhapsody"

At work I have to listen to BBC Radio 2, which is as close to an Adult Contemporary/Rock station gets in Britain without getting into the more recent digital radio channels. I think it’s the most popular radio station in the country.

I feel like I hear Queen once or twice a day and I’ve never heard Zeppelin or Floyd.

Personally I’d prefer silence to all 3, but I don’t get to make the choice.

I wouldn't necessarily equate "more popular on Spotify" with "favorite of the hip teens." Queen is getting Ed Sheeran numbers.

I didn't think we were talking about hip teens, per se, just teens and zoomers in general.

(Of course all progeny of ilxors mentioned in this thread are v hip)

I have peripheral interest in LZ (my Dad was a fan and I had the Remasters comp on CD when I was a teen), but I had to go looking up "Over The Hills..." Honestly don't think I've ever heard it before

Conclusion: Zep seem to be significantly more prominent in the US than the UK. I know they were famous for never releasing singles over here until "Whole Lotta Love" was reissued in 1997, and I'd say that's easily the most recognised and ubiquitous one by them I can think of

I'd say Immigrant Song is a close second (although understandably even fewer people will be able to name it)

It is now known as the Thor song

Zep have been bigger in the US than Europe for as long as I can remember. That being said I think there's always a contingent of ppl who go all in on the old cliched classic rock aesthetic - this seems not to have changed from my youth to now- and Zep are big with that crowd.

How come there hasn't been a Greta Van Fleet equivalent to Queen? Or are the biggest Queen fans not thinking in "rock band" terms?

The Darkness?

Yeah I suspect kids who like Queen are less interested in Rock music in general, probably more likely to be listening to Dear Evan Hansen and stuff like that.

How come there hasn't been a Greta Van Fleet equivalent to Queen?

Muse.

Came here to say Muse

lol from top of thread:

De La Soul's Bahloone Mindstate and Juliana Hatfield's "My Sister" evidently.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, April 13, 2003 10:43 PM (twenty years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Was Buhloone Mindstate "critically lauded"??

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Monday, April 14, 2003 9:42 AM (twenty years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Gotta go with the De La. 3 Feet High and Falling...

― maria b (maria b), Monday, April 14, 2003 1:42 PM (twenty years ago) bookmarkflaglink

De La Soul wasn't even irrelevant in 2003

XPS Also Mika.

But no, I don't think many rock bands would openly credit Queen as a serious influence, even if they might well have been inspired by them. They hold a different kind of cachet to Led Zep that sits centrally and comfortably within the heart of both rock and pop.

I know plenty of people who would describe themselves as Queen fans. But to me the archetypal Queen fan isn't your classic ageing rocker. Rather they would be a weekend football loving Heart radio listener; a dad to three kids living in a suburban UK semi, and every bit the everybloke

When artists cite Queen's influence on their own work, it's almost always just about finding them (and particularly Freddie) personally inspiring instead of actually trying to sound like them.

Like, for example Garth Brooks has said seeing Queen and Kiss shows as a teenager inspired him to incorporate Stadium Rock production values into his stage show.

Every now and then there's a song--like "We are Young" by fun--that seems to be going for Queen-like pomp

same with Imagine Dragons etc.

Queen definitely has more of a pop vibe, and i think their popularity definitely comes from how they have a sound that can be many different things to different people. one can see how they'd appeal easily to fans of Zep, ABBA, ELO, Elton John, prog rock, Rocky Horror...i bet most of the Dire Straits dadrock types love Queen too.

XP My Chemical Romance too.

It is now known as the Thor song

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes)

Also for a while the Shrek 3 song

my friends, have you considered that the reason Queen is the preeminent classic rock survivor of the current era is due to their successful threading of fascism and LBTQ aesthetics

stfu

Freddie wasn't even out, foh "LBTQ aesthetics"

Fellas, is it gay to walk around with half a microphone stand?

Pierre isn't serious, he showed up in 2020 and was posting trolly nonsense in the politics thread and seems to for some reason not have gotten tired of it yet

Queen is very hard to replicate for some of the reasons cited, i.e., their ability to create pop hits and deep rock cuts, Brian's instantly recognizable guitar sound, and probably most importantly Freddie's unique talent and persona.

Freddie wasn't even out, foh "LBTQ aesthetics"

Maybe not out, out, but it was pretty generally "known."

truly they reflect our times https://www.simplyeighties.com/resources/2020_Pictures/Queen%20Radio%20Ga%20Ga%207%20inch%20vinyl%20UK.jpg + https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4f/17/01/4f170197d53c58701992f7582d848ec9.jpg

righto

something for both the football hooligans *and* the theater kids

and is that our times then

the Ga Ga to Fash pipeline

Maybe not out, out, but it was pretty generally "known."

Really depends! Friend of mine's dad was a HUGE Queen fan and had no idea. I know it all looks obvious in retrospect but don't underrate a middle aged man's capacity for denial.

That's astonishing. It was obvious to me when I was about 12-13 years old.

Don't tell him about Rob Halford

The band is named Queen

too subtle

lol

It took most of my life until I even noticed

The coincidence-or-not with the name that is

I think the fact is there's a certain amount of queerness baked into the "rock frontman" persona (going all the way back to Little Richard if not earlier), which maybe made it easier for folks in the past to be in denial about Freddy

AC/DC also a potentially suggestive band name but I am not sure how many people take it that way

I didn't really consider Freddie's sexuality until his radical image change circa The Game or so. The band name similarly washed right the fuck over me.

AC/DC also a potentially suggestive band name but I am not sure how many people take it that way

― The Royal House of Hangover (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, October 9, 2023 4:44 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

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About 4%

Harlem Shake (the fake bullshit one)

IIRC AC/DC took their name from a vacuum cleaner.

Make of that what you wil.

*will

This'll be why they chose Brian "Hoover advert" Johnson

Damn it, according to Wikipedia it was a sewing machine.

Ah, well. Teach the controversy.

Don't know how average my 14-year-old daughter and her friend's tastes are, but they all love Queen, Abba, Bowie and Elton John. Also, some LZ and ELO but I think that's at least partially due to Marvel movie soundtracks.

i basically grew up on ZepFloydBeatles, with Hendrix and the Doors thrown in. not sure how Hendrix and the Doors hold up now. i know the doors were uncool for a long while after that Val Kilmer movie came out and people thought Jim Morrison was as much of a douche as Val Kilmer. but i feel like the world has gotten over that.

As long as teen white boys smoke dope and want to look 'deep', there will be an audience for the Doors.

speaking of bands that never go away and since some u.k. folks might not have known how massive Led Zep have been here in the states, do they have any idea how revered Dire Straits are here? Are they as revered in the U.K.? they probably are. But here, man, i don't think they will ever go away. Supertramp too to some degree.

i feel like Queen have been beloved here non-stop since News Of The World.

i thought all rock bands back then were just generically "flamboyant". like people at the circus or the ice capades. it was only later that i looked at all those pictures of rob halford or freddie and went: ohhhhhh yeahhhh....
i didn't bat an eye at the huge david lee roth poster my brother had (inside his closet ironically enough) where he was half naked and chained to a fence. seemed like something david lee roth would do. helmut newton? yeah, it must have been. my brother's walls were covered in sweaty men. and the occasional pictures of Ann & Nancy or Debbie. this was the 70s/1980.

Dire Straits are probably as famous as Zep, if not respected nearly as much, but are probably slightly more heard overall - Walk of Life, Money for Nothing, Romeo and Juliet and Sultans of Swing feel pretty ubiquitous or at least it has seemed that way in times when I've had regular exposure to Radio 2 or commercial radio.

Supertramp's most famous songs are probably in a similar boat, except the band weren't quite as monstrously big here as I gather they were for a period in the US. In the 00s there was The Feeling, a briefly very, very ubiquitous band for around two years, who got compared to Supertramp endlessly and as such are probably the biggest example of ST's i-word on UK pop after ST stopped having hits.

The 20somethings don't know Dire Straits at all.

I don't think there's a less cool band in the UK than Dire Straits, at least for people who were around during their heyday. Although they're probably still revered by the same people that revere Simply Red and the Lighthouse Family, so who am I to say?

They're a punchline band to some and to others (classic rock granddads, in my experience) very great and important.

I want to compare them somehow to the Police or Sting but in these respects the Police are too 'cool' and Sting too 'uncool'

That's what I think they have in the UK that Supertramp don't though - both bands are I'm assuming unlikely to have ever appeared on the front of Mojo or Uncut but DS and Knopfler still excite people who love e.g. Clapton and others in that spot (this isn't something that has passed down much from that generation I don't think) - there's a good chance they've still been on the front of Classic Rock. Whereas Supertramp are seen more like ELO - pop-oriented (because no guitar godz I guess) and probably borderline g****y p******e territory in the ears of some.

Chris Rea >> Dire Straits

He has not one but two divine Balearic classics. Dire Straits have several songs which could have been taken to in that way but afaict just weren't.

What's interesting about Dire Straits — really the only thing — is that Knopfler was a huge influence on North African "desert blues" guitar players. Tinariwen used to talk up Dire Straits all the time in interviews.

I enjoy most of Love Over Gold and On Every Street - primarily for what I believe are ambient/art rock/ECM-related reasons (ditto Chris Rea's more atmospheric work e.g. Nothing to Fear). Marcello has strong Then Play Long pieces on both.

maybe i'm cynical, it's weird to me that many are talking about queen's spotify-era resurgence in these kinda free market terms where it's the music winning out. obviously they couldn't do it without a library of many broadly appealing and often great songs, but strikes me as more of a marketing/PR success than anything. may and taylor and whoever manages their library (disney?) just seem to be obsessively committed to continually building up the band's profile in a way that similar acts (or estates thereof) like bowie or fleetwood mac never quite strove for

also helps that they've largely escaped being classified as the same kind of "classic rock" as zep or floyd (even bowie to an extent) and they haven't really suffered that level of rockist scrutiny in a long time. zep's aura got a dent in it every time one of their songs appeared in a TV commercial. every time queen showed up in a commercial they just grew stronger.

Brian and Roger are shameless and I can't really tolerate them (and fuck the film too). Although their larger discography is endearingly hilarious as a result (Queen/Wyclef Jean, then Five + Queen, then Queen + Vanguard (obscure German hard house duo) - that prolonged period somewhat resembling Bowie's RCA-EMI hinterland madness of 1980-82).

I loved the film

The Fiery Furnaces were super critically lauded as Important 10 years ago, or maybe more like 20? Are they remembered or spoken about at all?

For me the film is The Comic Strip Presents...The Strike, but actually real.

Ryan Adams, although his moment in the sun was probably more like 15 years ago

xp I have no idea what that means.

I speak about the Fiery Furnaces! I listen to them all the time. I got kind of obsessed with that Blueberry Boat during the pandemic.

You and me, Scott, it's just you and me.

i've been listening to solo Eleanor lately. i never really listened and some of it is really cool.

The Strike

The film concerns Paul (Alexei Sayle), a Welsh former miner and aspiring screenwriter, who writes a hard-hitting film script about his own experiences of the 1984 Miners' Strike. However, the Hollywood production company that gets hold of his script turns it into a ludicrously sensationalist and anachronistic action film, starring Al Pacino (played by Richardson) as Arthur Scargill, and Meryl Streep (Jennifer Saunders) as his wife.

The FFs have definitely slipped towards the back but they do attract some younger fans, fans for whom Bitter Tea is the best-loved, not Blueberry Boat. Not just saying that because that's where I stand also.

xp The Strike is about a Hollywood studio making a big, empty, flagrantly revisionary film about the UK miner's strike and how it affects the community it is set in (particularly for the original screenwriter, who is shamed for letting the money tempt him).

i listen to Bitter Tea a lot.

i like working to their music!

So real answers from 10 years back—

Chillwave
mbv
Rhye
Chance the Rapper
Childish Gambino

Dire Straits are probably as famous as Zep, if not respected nearly as much, but are probably slightly more heard overall - Walk of Life, Money for Nothing, Romeo and Juliet and Sultans of Swing feel pretty ubiquitous or at least it has seemed that way in times when I've had regular exposure to Radio 2 or commercial radio.

― you can see me from westbury white horse

that's interesting, in the us "money for nothing" used to be their biggest hit but has been pretty much retconned out of existence... when you hear dire straits it's "walk of life" or maybe "sultans of swing". it's actually pretty cool, nobody misses it, nobody complains that "money for nothing" has been "cancelled" by a "woke mob", people just, like... don't think about it. if i mention it to someone they'll be like "oh yeah, that's right, that did used to be a big hit, i wonder why you never hear that any... oh, right."

In the UK the version that gets around doesn't have -that- verse. It's also in the version of the video I always used to bump into on music channels.

Another 2013 example: The Next Day. Eclipsed when Blackstar happened and it will likely stay this way.

It's = the version without that verse

That's the version that's on US Classic Rock radio and SiriusXM now too.

To me it seems that in the states Dire Straits have become just another '80s band: the Brothers In Arms hits and "Sultans..." are still Classic Rock staples that also pop up on '80s-centric Pop stations, Jack stations etc. Occasionally you'll hear something else at CVS.

But that's it.

People would still find a way to rep for "Money for Nothing" if it was problematic but actually ruled, but instead it's problematic and actually sucks. Deadly combo.

"Sultans of Swing" is strangely compelling though. Like having a conversation in a bar with a stockbroker that you think will be boring, but they've got some weird secret hobby.

Ha! That's a great description...

it’s a really great song

ILX?

that's more like 15 imo

Chris Rea >> Dire Straits

― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 10 October 2023 02:06 (ten hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Can't believe this post passed without a Dire Rea gag. ILM has truly hit rock bottom.

Chug Pepto-Bismol and go to bed, honey. You're tired.

Most of Communiqué, Making Movies and Love Over Gold are very good.

first side of making movies is one of my fave first sides of a record ever. i don't even listen to the other side.

i did see them on their big brothers in arms tour and i was right up front in a packed arena and...i fell asleep. it was a really long show!

to be fair i was probably really drunk.

checking the playlist of the "local" classic rock station-- they've played both "Walk of Life" and "Money for Nothing" this morning.

Love Over Gold is pretty great. I grew up on the same Telegraph Road that the song is about, except that we called it "Graph" and we "cruised" it.

Marcello nudged me into giving Love Over Gold a try, no regrets.

tbf "Walk of Life" is worse than "Money for Nothing."

M4N: I still feel a stir from that opening build from Sting's voice to the guitar riff

Dire Straits has so many terrific jams, I love 'em. Even "Money For Nothing," I've never gotten tired of it although I totally get why it's not an acceptable song anymore. But cranking the shit out of the stereo when that huge guitar sound comes in? Mmmmmmmmm, that's good.

The stuff I really like is Sultans of Swing, Romeo & Juliet, the moodier stuff. They don't have an album that's great all the way through, but there are enough deep cuts that a greatest hits set isn't quite enough.

Their pre-BiA live album is a pretty good way to hear them. Not on Spotify for some reason.

Tunnel of Love remains an epic jam

watched the Miami Vice episode with "Brothers in Arms" at the end, what a great song, great scene

I still love "Skateaway."

Down to the Waterline is Sultans of Swing, but without the homophobia or, frankly, the dramatic punch of the arrangement

I think I'm missing the homophobia in Sultans of Swing?

yeah me too

"Money for Nothing" was the homophobic song.

I think it's because these characters are supposed to be gay:

Then a crowd a young boys they're a foolin' around in the corner
Drunk and dressed in their best brown baggies and their platform soles
They don't give a damn about any trumpet playin' band
It ain't what they call Rock and Roll

There are other homophobic Dire Straits songs: "Les Boys", anyone?

Genius Annotation
2 contributors
This is a rock song about non-rock/pre-rock music. The “young boys”, dressed in the style of the 70s, aren’t paying any attention to the band because it’s not playing rock music.

This is the only place I get my information about the meaning of lyrics from

huh i guess i thought they were supposed to be like tough type kids or something? cuz they don't like "trumpet" playing jazzy shit just real rock n' roll? or just like glam rock fans (platform shoes) who like slade and mott the hoople and shit like that not the sultans more subtle rock n' roll/r&b/creole stuff?

just figuring dire straits would have been playing bars during the glam rock/pre-punk era

I always took it to be Disco fans in platforms, but Glam would make more sense.

I've also heard that the "Sultans" are supposed to be a Pub Rock/Blue-Eyed Soul/Blue Beat combo with a horn section, but that genius annotation doesn't agree.

The lyrics were inspired by a performance of a Dixieland jazz band playing in the corner of an almost empty pub in Deptford, South London. At the end of their performance, the lead singer announced their name, the Sultans of Swing; Knopfler found the contrast between the group's dowdy appearance and surroundings and their grandiose name amusing.[8]

So that's settled.

Now what is the deal with those platform shoe guys?

...and why are they wearing brown baggies? Did they bring their lunches to the pub?

At the end of their performance, the lead singer announced their name, the Sultans of Swing; Knopfler found the contrast between the group's dowdy appearance and surroundings and their grandiose name amusing.

imagining what peak-era Fagen and Becker would have done after witnessing that moment

Cocaine, probably.

lol

name inspired by the '70s lounge band that exclusively played cop-show funk called the Sultans of S.W.A.T.

So that's settled.

Now what is the deal with those platform shoe guys?

sorry to return to the original thread topic, there was a strain of hipster white boy r&b that has disappeared. autre ne veut, how to dress well, rhye, etc. majical cloudz probably fits in the trend too, tho i think they made the best music of the bunch.

Yeah, President Keyes mentioned Rhye not too long ago, but that's a good call.

i think rhye guy turned out to be a sex pest, so that might explain less attention.... majical cloudz split about a decade ago now, but i don't really feel they were of a similar vibe to the others you listed... their last lp Are You Alone? was beautiful though.

sex pest probably too kind of a description

Sorry gang I think that post just came out garbled. I forget what I was thinking. Yes ordinarily I know the difference between Sultans and Money; my head was just not quite on straight.

Nevertheless Down to the Waterline still reads as a rough draft of Sultans.

ZZ Top’s Eliminator “pre-producer” Linden Hudson was recently interviewed on a podcast and revealed that Knopfler called him a couple times in an attempt to divulge Eliminator’s guitar secrets. Hudson never replied but believes that “Money For Nothing” was Knopfler’s attempt to replicate the sound.

The desert blues guitar folks love Knopfler’s movie soundtracks, especially the ones for Bill Forsyth’s Local Hero and Comfort & Joy

Knopler used to play some of his soundtrack music at Dire Straits shows. It’s kind of amusing imaging drunk rock fans sitting through that.

Rock audiophile guys with tons of money buy $50,000 turntables and play Dire Straits on them. And Supertramp. And Alan Parsons Project. And on Sundays play only Steely Dan and Pink Floyd.

Knopler used to play some of his soundtrack music at Dire Straits shows. It’s kind of amusing imaging drunk rock fans sitting through that.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes)

well at least he didn't start telling a story about a duck that came to live in the family home

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_Ho8Bdkbu4

well at least he didn't start telling a story about a duck that came to live in the family home

― Kate (rushomancy),

what I would love this

Strangest rock audiophile guy I ever met loved loved loved David Byrne solo albums and used them to show off his Installation, but "fucking hates Talking Heads" and thought that My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts was "lazy and weird"

Lol I remember reading an interview with (I think) Bombino and the dude asks him about influences and he says Eric Clapton which I'm sure wasn't what the interviewer was hoping for

xp Must've been this guy.

lol!

Boy, I was an irascible jackass in 2003, wasn't I. Apologies, all.

you really saw Urban Dance Squad FIVE times???? were you living in a squat in Rotterdam?

That audiophile youtube sounds great through my shitty laptop speakers

Let's see... I saw UDS play an acoustic gig during the New Music Seminar in Times Square circa 1990?, then again at the old Loeb Student Center (since razed) just of Washington Square Park and then a third time at the old Marquee club on West 21st Street (also since razed). That's three, but I feel like I saw them more than that.

Goat and Melt Yourself Down. Good bands both but appetites for Euro-Afro-rock have dwindled (or moved on from them at any rate).

Goat was still on several EOY lists I saw for ‘23.

Oh fair. Must have missed that as I haven't seen them mentioned in years.

Benji

how about, to varying degrees: Ice Choir, Cooly G, Sleep Over, Classixx, SBTRKT, Purity Ring? Some of these went quiet I guess.

That whole scene centred round Seb Rochford seems a long way away these days.

Sleep Over still very relevant to me! Also that smudgy dreampop sound seems very much in vogue at the moment