Why does mainstream rock suck, but mainsteam hip hop is good?

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I'm not sure I even feel this way, but I know people here do, and I'd like to hear it discussed.

― David Allen, Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:52 (twenty-two years ago)

they both suck pretty bad right now

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

so this is why Radiohead and the White Stripes never get discussed and meanwhile there's a million Cam'ron threads

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:57 (twenty-two years ago)

mainstream hiphop is in a holding pattern, as the timbaland typerwriter-fonk sound has lasted longer as a "paradigm sound" than perhaps any previous (longer than chic-disco tracks, longer than out of sync boomin drum machines, longer than james brown samples, longer than puffy karaoke) and no one is sure whither next until someone comes outta nowhere (like tim did) to push it somewhere else

mainstream rock is - as i think our douglas wolk once said - ceaseless altamont

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't the Neptunes sound the new thing? Granted, I don't know anyone else DOING the Neptunes sound, but Neptunes are producing everything ever.

― David Allen, Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:02 (twenty-two years ago)

one came from the other

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

the indie-class threads hang over my head whenever i try to talk about this stuff. my analysis is a broken bicycle.

i'll clear off and go think about reverb instead.
all these MACRO threads hurt.

― gabriel (gabe), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

wht does ceaseless altamont mean? everybody's getting roughed up by the angels?

― ron (ron), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok, admit it. You all kinda like 50 Cent. 'Cause I know I do.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i like 50 cent. but i cant help shake the feeling that liking 50 cent now is liking foghat then.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

because it is.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

And not all mainstream rock sucks, at least not completely. See: QOTSA.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

No, Jess, that gives 50 Cent too much credit.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

it's insane that timba's dominated for SEVEN YEARS now, although stagnation's creeping in slightly (to my ears at least), 'sorry' to anyone who actually thinks "work it" is missy's best (or even fifth best) single, and the lil kim track all over radio right now is great but lil kim seems superfluous on it - surely a crime. Then again I thought the same thing after "Try Again" and "Get Ur Freak On" and "Oops! Oh My" are post that (plus "More Than A Woman" which may not be as ohmigod but still has a hold on my heart) so who knows. The Neptunes are batting .700 but what else is new (plus they've never really, er, shifted the paradigm).

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"In Da Club"'s great but I'm not sure how different it would sound if it had come out in 1995 (school me somebody).

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Foghat. Ha.

But doesn't hip-hop invite you to embrace its disposability? More than rock ever did?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:11 (twenty-two years ago)

please not more than rock EVER did (are you forgetting that something like 9000 "Annie" songs came out in 195whatever?)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

dre is still paterfamilias in a very scary way

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, there's nothing in eve's "satisfaction" - at least without listening to the background with some acid squiggle or some aucourant signifier - that sez it couldn't have come out in 95 and it's my fave hiphop single of this year

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree w/James, the Neps just sorta snuck in from below and became the center.

Timbafunk is hardly stale to me--and hey, who was complaining when Motown or the Beatles ruled for 8-10 years at a time?--but there is something of a sense of diminishing returns here. also, Motown had Sly and JB kicking them in the ass every so often, making them reshape themselves a bit; the Beatles had, hmmm, maybe Cream and Hendrix (note the "heavier" sound of the White Album vs. Sgt. Pepper's airiness). doesn't seem like many folks are doing this to Tim or the 'Tunes. and obviously Dre gets staler and staler but no one says so.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:14 (twenty-two years ago)

'obviously'

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:14 (twenty-two years ago)

it's obvious to me, at least. come on--is anyone saying his recent stuff is up to N.W.A or even the first Eminem record?

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't mean that no rock was ever disposable. I wondering about something possibly inherent in the genre of hip-hop. Hip-hop, remember, still lacks anything close to the "canon" that rock has.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

motown also had a lot of outside things kicking them in the ass too, directly or not: like dylan, psychedlia, all this popular pressure from outside the funk'n'soul borderlands which seems to have been lost (?) when the producers can do all this pick'n'mix themselves from any extant musical culture (?)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha, Dre's got a job, he's bonafide!

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Cuz MTV sex so.

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Hip-hop's considerably younger, and there still isn't a Jann Wenner type stateside or any major English hiphop press to do the requisite canon of the month (when did the '100 best albums of all time' thing really get underway anyhow? I know Rolling Stone went canoncrazy in the late 80s - best albums one year, singles the next, etc. Was the Dave Marsh thing the real big kickoff? the Xgau lists in the back of the decade guides? some help here Matos)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

l i n k i n p a r k

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:20 (twenty-two years ago)

and jess is right - motown 63 sounds very different from motown 70 (not to mention the beatles)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:21 (twenty-two years ago)

trife!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:22 (twenty-two years ago)

linkin park is one-way dialogue

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah the journalists had something to do with it. The whole "back in the day recommended" phenomenon, let's call it. But will any such cannon EVER stick to hip-hop, because of changing social circumstances, changes in the way music criticism is dissiminated (the internet), or something cut-and-paste and therefore disposable about the genre itself? Or does its cut-and-pastiness only open it up more to "timeless" status? Is that fact that that you can't immediately hear the difference between 1995 and now indicative of anything?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

timbaland could not have existed in 1995

dre can still exist in 2002

maybe this means hiphop is getting more inclusive or the cycles are taking longer to die out

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Kenan, if anything hip-hop's received wisdom (Tupac and/or Rakim as greatest MC ever period, Dre as greatest producer ever period) is at least as ironclad as rock's canon, if not more so. the Ego Trip book is more idiosyncratic than that received-wisdom, which is one reason to treasure it.

I'm not arguing w/Jess; we're basically saying the same thing. Motown/Beatles progressed but stayed on top, whereas Tim and Tunes haven't moved too much. not to quibble too much but I'd argue "outside" means Sly/JB too, especially structurally.

canonization probably began w/Melody Maker '76, Gambaccini '77, and I think Stone did something similar before '87 though maybe not.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:26 (twenty-two years ago)

and the late 90s dirty south cmm/no limit thug melancholia sound did more for current rap than crit-friendly tim/neps, fuck 'weird' auteurism

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:28 (twenty-two years ago)

sly stone is pretty much THE demarcation line between early and later motown

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:29 (twenty-two years ago)

probably the latter, Jess

cmm/no limit is plenty weird and auteurist, opie trife

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Hip hops received wisdom is not all that well received, though. Couldn't Nas just as easily be the greatest MC ever?

Maybe this is all a function of its youthfulness as a genre.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:30 (twenty-two years ago)

please trife, we LIVE in the south and I can go an hour on v103 or even the beat hearing 80% tim or neptune productions (with freaknasty comprising the other 20%)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:31 (twenty-two years ago)

mannie fresh is third in line for "white rockcrit canonization" for sure

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:31 (twenty-two years ago)

where is sterling?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:31 (twenty-two years ago)

listening to the shipping news and rodan

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:32 (twenty-two years ago)

hey, you started that thread

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:33 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks jb!! check it, 2real4flagpole...

V/A - BIKER BOYZ OST

Tracks two through four are the crucial ones; Swizz Beatz, Ja Rule, and Metallica's jawdropping "We Did It Again", POD gleefully remixed into cartoonish robot build-rock by Crystal Method, The Neptunes taking vital steps against their own music-crit canonization by "slumming" with Papa Roach (fuck yes!). By now Linkin Park have literally saved music, they aren't on this but their future-of-pop style fills the thing; check how Swizz brings some serious Afrika Bambaataa jacking Kraftwerk shit with all these spacey "Crawling"-style keyboard intros!! The rest awkwardly tries to implement rock's new figment of hiphop as a moody goth-R'n'B slow jam instead of ultramale Xzibit and MOP growl, some works (Mos' surprisingly gorgeous "Kalifornia"), some doesn't (die Non Phixion!!) but the end result just feels sadly inconsequential considering it could've been THE rap-rock statement, JUDGEMENT NIGHT '03!! - EP

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:33 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, no record reviews this week either, wtf

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:34 (twenty-two years ago)

cool review, EP.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:35 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - I bet you the music editor over there doesn't know who the Neptunes or Swizz Beatz are (I ain't kidding here folx)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"white rockcrit canonization"

But that's kind of what I'm asking. No such whiteness will ever carry any weight with hip-hop. If you accept the premise (and I do) that rock journalists had everything to do with canonizing that music, along with the peculiar timing of FM radio, what is or could ever be the hip-hop equivalent of that? I see lots of arguments in hip hop. Lots of dissenting opinions. Lots of people referring not to magazines for informed opinions, but to message boards.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:38 (twenty-two years ago)

when crits go for producers its tim and neps, even s reynolds forgot about mannie once shake ya ass came out!! and never love for no limit, they were the bad boy of the south (not from houston so fuck rapalot)

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:39 (twenty-two years ago)

[real ans as to where i am: writing a piece on bhangra. like i said hip-hop is in the beatles go to india phase]

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:41 (twenty-two years ago)

blount that review ws rejected under sarah lee, its ancient...i want to say more on this thread but i got to leave, ilm is aight lately though!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:42 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - you weren't here monday

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:43 (twenty-two years ago)

rockcrits = Nation of Millions consistently named greatest rap album evah

received wisdom/hardcore fanbase = 2pac consistently chosen greatest MC evah

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos is correct, Rolling Stone did there "Best 100 Rock Albums of the last 20 Years" in summer 1987, to coincide with the anniversary of the "summer of love".

Stupid album-as-album starting point (peppers) as Beatles themselves had already been thinking that way, but if we call Run-D.M.C. (1984) the first rap album-as-album (and I would), we're about a year away from twenty-year point. Trife you gonna write it up?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Hip hop is not young anymore.

Late 70's, very early 80's: the DJ, MC, breakdancer, grafitti artist.

Early 00's: The mainstream popular music.

Time elapsed: 20-22 years.

Rock is old, but look at how it had changed in twenty years since Chuck Berry and Little Richard to stadium rawk mid 70's.

Maybe the Foghat/50 Cent analogy is true.

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:44 (twenty-two years ago)

oh and the thread premise is utterly wrong, since about 1995 rock and hiphop have both been great...i started onthe trife zine agian, give it a month

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:44 (twenty-two years ago)

isn't the hiphop canon the source's five mic records anyway?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:45 (twenty-two years ago)

toop repeatedly cites 1974 as the "starting point" - although unclear why - in rap attack - 30 years! - which means hip-hop has passed it's pistols-clash/diz-bird age range.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:45 (twenty-two years ago)

James is largely correct (exception: Benzino!) (who right didn't get 5 mics, you know what I mean)

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I know one of the things that came out in the benzino-eminem 'war' (almost as one sided as the gulf wars) was that the source was gonna retro-award the chronic five mics.

74 is the starting point the same way 44 is the starting point for rock

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:46 (twenty-two years ago)

ie. sorta kinda not really

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:47 (twenty-two years ago)

more like '48 ("It's Too Soon to Know," Wynonie's "Good Rockin' Tonight")

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:48 (twenty-two years ago)

read up on your tosches (i'm talking 1844)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:49 (twenty-two years ago)

'74 - That's a long time ago. It's all goin' down from here!

SOMEBODY INVENT A NEW GENRE!

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:49 (twenty-two years ago)

ah.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:50 (twenty-two years ago)

does anyone find it veeeeery odd it's taken the english so long to catch on to hiphop? (giving betty boo no credit, mike skinner some credit, dizzee rascal alot of credit)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:51 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, and forgetting triphop somehow

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:52 (twenty-two years ago)

jes s yo watch it w/ the 'progression of rap will exactly mirror rock' stuff, hiphop has the internet

― s trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:52 (twenty-two years ago)

not really, they're english

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone has the internet, but point taken

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

ok, (bore alert) does the internet make stagnation/revolution more or less unlikely?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

diffusion, probably

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:54 (twenty-two years ago)

more than either

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:55 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, that's kinda what I meant or something

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:55 (twenty-two years ago)

let a thousand pointless lights contend

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:55 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, diffusion, the kind of thing that gives most old-school crits headaches of the "there's no center! we need monoculture!" variety. bothers me sometimes too until I sit down and tally up the amount of good stuff happening Right Now and realize I'm practically drowning in it.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:56 (twenty-two years ago)

'74 is damn early. It would've been very small and underground. Damn. James Brown still had some decent super heavy funk left in him!

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:56 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - tom ewing 'we are all made of dilletantes' to thread!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(I fear we are embarking upon Fanaticism vs. Dilettantism again.)

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:57 (twenty-two years ago)

cross-post shockah!

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:58 (twenty-two years ago)

okay anyway trife is right and hip-hop is onna attack. 50 cent is good but too much of a good thing almost, and its a shame that ja rule's freestyle back isn't getting enough respect but honestly everything outta that battle is AWESOME.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:59 (twenty-two years ago)

so do you guys think there's something lost by not having a 2000's prince or similiar? someone who maybe doesn't "set the paradigm" but at least synthesizes everything interesting at the moment and sells it back to you in super-concentrated form?

i was talking about it with bob zemko the other day and i'm still undecided.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:59 (twenty-two years ago)

haha triple-xxxpost

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:00 (twenty-two years ago)

UK Hip Hop is not been supported by the major drug traffickers in Britain, therefore it has not taken flight.

Nowadays, the game is to be $oLD, not to be ToLD.

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I like that sort of thing, yes. Isn't that Missy right now?

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:01 (twenty-two years ago)

what do the druge traffickers in Britain listen to? (tom ewing to thread again haha)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:02 (twenty-two years ago)

(this is a real question, I'm not sure it is. she's closest, though.)

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I was gonna say Outkast (I know they wanna be)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the idea of Timberlake-as-mega-popstar but obv he's nothing like the auteur that a Prince was, and could drop off the face of the earth next year for all I know.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

i suspect this is another thread, but missy just doesn't seem...fecund enough. larger than life, maybe? maybe it's that she doesnt TRY to be larger than life, except in the megaman costume/trashbag way that everyone with 500k and a fisheye does.

it's the larger-than-lifeness that appeals to me most about the prince-type figure.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know. I just like the idea that UK hip hop sucks because the cartels cater to the dance/club scene.

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:07 (twenty-two years ago)

that's not true, Diamond--his absence, esp. after seven-eight years ubiquity, would certainly be noticeable. every time you think he's gone, he drops an "Oops (Oh My)" or "Work It" and people say "oh shit, there he is again."

OutKast is a good answer, but they broke up in March. and that's why Missy was a question not an answer. Radiohead--nah, as well "respected" as they are by a number of factions--nowhere near as larger-than-life as they needed to be. I realize I'll catch hell for this but aside from OutKast the last artist I can honestly think of to fit this bill is Nirvana.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i think my biggest problem with the dilletant argument is not the culture-warrior bunker types but the lack of monotheist god-figures who we all can agree are the hippest happening going you tranks but at the same time doen't completely RULE the public discourse (prince vs. the beatles)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:09 (twenty-two years ago)

not to get to calum-y, but people wanted to fuck prince - he synthesised alot of prototypes too (marvin god-sex, mick wink-leer, bowie andro-shapeshifter, stevie wonder supertalent)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Hopefully, that larger-than-life pop star will be the Antichrist himself. Our world is too fragmented/pluralistic/tribal that only someone who could survive a massive head wound could set this house called Planet Rock on fire.

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:12 (twenty-two years ago)

b-b-but monoculture

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:13 (twenty-two years ago)

1. In Da Club, 50 Cent
2. Get Busy, Sean Paul
3. 21 Questions, 50 Cent Featuring Nate Dogg
4. Beautiful, Snoop Dogg Featuring Pharrell & Uncle Charlie Wilson
5. I Know What You Want, Busta Rhymes & Mariah Carey Featuring The Flipmode Squad
6. Can't Let You Go, Fabolous Featuring Mike Shorey & Lil' Mo
7. I Can, Nas
8. Excuse Me Miss, Jay-Z
9. The Jump Off, Lil' Kim Featuring Mr. Cheeks
10. No Letting Go, Wayne Wonder

One from Tim, one from Dre, two from the Neptunes.... and two from Greensleeves!!!!

The chart seems healthy, and I suspect everyone's just reacting cause Nas is dragging it down.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:13 (twenty-two years ago)

But 50 Cent was shot in the face! He must be the Antichrist!

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:13 (twenty-two years ago)

am I the only one who think's that nas track is a million times cornier than 'a hard knock life'?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:15 (twenty-two years ago)

50 Cent ain't the new Canibus but he ain't the new Biggie either

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:15 (twenty-two years ago)

(wanna say something about Kurt fitting those dead-right attributes James mentioned of Prince's, not finding the right words....)

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Not only is Nas' shit corny, but his history lesson is tired old corny shit too...

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:17 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, I get BDP flashbacks from it

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos, that's cute but not what I meant. I'm only saying he seems to be positioned correctly, more than any other individual artist, to begin a lengthy run of pop dominance. I thought that was what was inplied, not someone beginning to stagnate.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

ok i had to come back because 'i can' is incredible!! kidzbop chorus plus textbook pop classicalbeat plus afro fuckin centrism, it came on bet when we went to downhome cooking and the alco lemonade girl did the chorus each time!! that top ten is great : ) but in da club STILL?? i remember like a month ago i read in usa today i think that two hundred million americans had heard it in the past week i thought to myself yeah and each one heard it TWO HUNDRED MILLION TIMES

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I read it as TimbaLAND, not LAKE, duh! sorry about that.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I heard "In Da Club" three times today alone, and I BARELY listened to the radio

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

james have you been to downhome cooking, they got the lemonade HOOKED UP!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

where is this place?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

it's going to take a miracle to make me think "In da Club" is anything more than just-OK

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:22 (twenty-two years ago)

oh man, where's Sasha Frere-Jones whenya need him

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

up broad st where mildreds fish delight used to be, mac n cheese is also off the mfin chain

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:24 (twenty-two years ago)

sometimes i wish i still had a tv for bet : ( but i remember that not having it makes me go to downhome cooking!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:24 (twenty-two years ago)

also catfish and bbq chicken that made me turn unvegan and in case ive not made it implicit THEIR LEMONADE is ALCOHOLIC

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Highest sing:rap ratio in years though, eh? (50's PIMP is so damn sweet I can't wait for it to really hit also coz it'll change the flavor from jamaica to elsewhere in the carribian for a change -- we're movin' to the really dirty rilly south here and i don't mean Mexico City... yet)

Oh, and the mainstream rock charts?

1. Like A Stone, Audioslave
2. Headstrong, Trapt
3. Somewhere I Belong, Linkin Park
4. Straight Out Of Line, Godsmack
5. Times Like These, Foo Fighters
6. When I'm Gone, 3 Doors Down
7. Remember, Disturbed
8. Price To Play, Staind
9. Fine Again, Seether
10. Send The Pain Below, Chevelle

Honestly I don't know enough about these to say anything except the Linkin track is good and the Foo Fighers one is weak and the Audioslave is probably pretty okay.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:27 (twenty-two years ago)

ohjesus, I do love some MACARONI AND CHEESE !!! !!!

catfish is good but bbq chicken is an oxymoron

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:27 (twenty-two years ago)

must come to Athens and have mac & cheese and lemonade w/you guys. must.

that mod-rock chart is unspeakable

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The chart seems healthy, and I suspect everyone's just reacting cause Nas is dragging it down.

The r&b chart (which is obviously just a hip-hop chart) is healthier than I think I've ever seen it, and Nas still makes great music sometimes, so fuck that "Nas is the problem" shit. He's not the solution anymore, granted, but Nas is still valid.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:29 (twenty-two years ago)

why does mainstream bbq suck but mainstream chicken is good??

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Also on the rock charts (full 20) there's TWO Chevelle trax, TWO Foo trax, TWO 3 Doors Down trax, and TWO Saliva trax.

Is the Staind track as vaguely okay as I remember it?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:31 (twenty-two years ago)

thats a good idea james we should have lunch sometime!! actually i was thinking this already after our baffling comic store run in

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Honestly I don't know enough about these to say anything except the Linkin track is good and the Foo Fighers one is weak and the Audioslave is probably pretty okay.

I know something about them just from setting my alarm to the rock station in the morning, so as to annoy myself out of bed. Let me assure you, most of this stuff is rotten. And not like fruit, either. Like meat. Really stinking.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:31 (twenty-two years ago)

modern rock charts -

1. Somewhere I Belong, Linkin Park
2. Bring Me To Life, Evanescence Featuring Paul McCoy
3. Like A Stone, Audioslave
4. Headstrong, Trapt
5. Can't Stop, Red Hot Chilli Peppers
6. Times Like These, Foo Fighters
7. Girl's Not Grey, AFI
8. Seven Nation Army, The White Stripes
9. Send The Pain Below, Chevelle
10. Price to Play, Staind

(guess which of these charts has the most singles in the top 40 top ten?)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:32 (twenty-two years ago)

mainstream rock and modern rock two different charts, sames acts basically cept for....

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:33 (twenty-two years ago)

staind are good but dudes voice sucks and their songs are kind of one-note, i think they compose melodies with the same nodes or whatever that em uses but all acoustic instead of w beats and giant rock chords : (

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:33 (twenty-two years ago)

and of course when em does this we get superman which has been steady killin atl girls on the radio here!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:34 (twenty-two years ago)

does the staind sound like "nothing else matters" (again)?

superman IS all over atl radio right now

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:35 (twenty-two years ago)

james thats what i was saying!! cant believe business was never a single... or square dance!! i like how theres always a couple bands on rock charts ive never heard of, is this how it feels for rock guys whenever theyre all 'i cant believe theres a dude called snoop DOGGY dogg!!!', trapt is a cool band name, b2k should ve been called that

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:37 (twenty-two years ago)

The premise is wrong anyway. Mainstream hip-hop sucks, while mainstream rock (at least if album sales and critics favourites count as "mainstream" - I usually only consider singles sales mainstream) is actually quite nice (although it was better before this "new rock" thing started)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:38 (twenty-two years ago)

what we've been waiting for...

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:39 (twenty-two years ago)

geir do you like rnb??

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:39 (twenty-two years ago)

this is gonna be interesting...

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:40 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway dreary awful say what you say f dre was SUPPOSEDLY a single but did anybody ever hear it on the radio once?! thank you djs!! skillz otm re jd vs dre

― s trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:40 (twenty-two years ago)

and why no puddle of mudd followup single, i really liked them!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:41 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, hi, 50 cent is bloody awful.

― reo fordecor, Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:43 (twenty-two years ago)

righto guvnah

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:44 (twenty-two years ago)

geir do you like rnb??

What is usually referred to as R&B these days absolutely sucks. I like 80s Michael Jackson and Lionel Richie and I definitely like 60s Motown plus 70s Stevie Wonder.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:45 (twenty-two years ago)

you know I haven't really heard em's dream on remake on the radio either, though it's on Mtv seemingly every time I flip by.

trife, do you think the source thing is a blessing in disguise for eminem in that it gives him something to talk about on the next one besides kim basinger and brittany murphy?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:47 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, and have you seen the 'battles' on the 8 mile dvd?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:47 (twenty-two years ago)

ok : ) geir i agree with you on that last part totally i love mj and motown and stevie but why does rnb suck now?? do you hear none of motown in ashanti and swv and destinys child etc etc?? none of mj in justin (or pharrel)?? or stevie in any of the earthy nu soul types??

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:49 (twenty-two years ago)

What trife's asking is, Geir do you like Jamiroquai?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i dont know about a blessing since no matter how much he resists its almost completely severing em from the ongoing hiphop narrative, coupled with his newsweek crit acceptance hes really getting stuck in the rock ghetto now, sadly this was just as he got back to rap from the pop world, signing 50 and bumpin mobb deep in 8mile, now all the non-rock originated (read: black) rap fans i know think hes corny again, benzino may suck but hes REAL and nas and jay come before em once again

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:53 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha yeah sorta!! i came at the rnb thing from the other way around and of course that isnt how shit really is but if geir insists on it being that way ill make him prove thats not how soul flows

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:54 (twenty-two years ago)

basically geir im asking would you have loved on the supremes (d child) before susan sontag (bono)

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't hear what I liked about Motown in today's R&B. Which has to do with melodies and harmonies.

About Jamiroquoi, he is a bit too "Superstition" to me (my least favourite Stevie Wonder track) - simply too "funky", while those more melodically and harmonically oriented ballads I loved from Wonder's 70s output aren't heard in his music.

In the 60s, American and African American music was about to melt together so to say, making it less easy to hear whether said music was made by a white or a black act. I found this a good thing, and never enjoyed the damage that James Brown and Sly Stone did to "black" music.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:57 (twenty-two years ago)

omg hahaha!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 06:59 (twenty-two years ago)

like I said trife, you weren't here monday

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:00 (twenty-two years ago)

geir what did you like about african music that it brought when african and american music 'melted together' in 'the 60s'?? geir are you basically saying you liked it when 'black' acts started sounding 'white'?? dont cloak cultural annihilation in the guise of unity!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:03 (twenty-two years ago)

GEIR!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:04 (twenty-two years ago)

its way too late for this shit im still drunk

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:04 (twenty-two years ago)

geir are you basically saying you liked it when 'black' acts started sounding 'white'??

No, I am not, because white artists had already been sounding more and more "black" for several years, only with acts like The Beatles sounding "black" without abandoning melody and harmony.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:04 (twenty-two years ago)

simply too "funky" geir are you an overwritten spike lee movie 'uncle tom' strawman?!?! who says that shit seriously???

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:07 (twenty-two years ago)

geir i offer you HIPHOP let it change your life

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

So it was simply a matter of two types of music melting together, not of one type of music being abandoned to work on the other's criteria. "White" music needed the energy, groove and soul of "black" music, while the other needed the melodic and harmonic qualities of "white" music.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

James Brown and Sly Stone "damaged" black music?! I don't even know how to respond to that.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:09 (twenty-two years ago)

and i will give you a makeover a la eugene levy in bringing down the house

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:09 (twenty-two years ago)

"White" music needed the energy, groove and soul of "black" music... they also have natural rhythm!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i know its awfully early in the argument to play this card but GEIR DO YOU DANCE EVER

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:12 (twenty-two years ago)

it's never too early!

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:26 (twenty-two years ago)

(everyone's just staring at their screens)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:28 (twenty-two years ago)

awww... it's "no mas" all over again

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:37 (twenty-two years ago)

james he DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:37 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah I know. we all know. it's kinda like trying to teach your dog how to yo-yo: at some point you just gotta give up.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:39 (twenty-two years ago)

that last post is almost as corny as that nas song.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

the worst thing about any nas record is nas, his style works on the bleak i need a new nigga for this cloud to follow tracks when you can see the pain in his eyes but when theres a bunch of cute lil seeds all around you in the video jesus dude cant you smile or something

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

. they also have natural rhythm!!!
There's no such thing as natural rhythm.

― nathalie (nathalie), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:53 (twenty-two years ago)

england in not getting the point shockah

heh - in the wuog booth there is (or was) a picture of the stillmatic cover with 'pigeons make nas sad' scrawled on it

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess someone else has made this point, but, who says mainstream rock sucks? It's just going through a phase - just like mainstream hip-hop did with Cypress Hill. Eminem's choice of guitar solo-ists is dire, though - does anyone else think this or are they actually brilliant, and I just don't get it?

― bedroom, Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Soloist doesn't need a '-', does it?

― bedroom, Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:58 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah wuog i remember when they rocked ether and got urself a gun like hourly there...

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

muggs...he has rock band now

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

(everyone's just staring at their screens)

You can say that again. It's Trife vs Geir - the final battle that will bring down ILM forever.

This thread is beautiful. The complete and utter lack of common ground and mutual understanding between them is the best bit.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 24 April 2003 08:58 (twenty-two years ago)

hahahahaha. I'd love to know Geir's reasoning behind "damage that James Brown and Sly Stone did to "black" music."
I got weird looks off my boss for suddenly bursting out laughing while i'm supposed to be working.
Sly Stone must be one of the best things to happen to ALL music.

― Winston, Thursday, 24 April 2003 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

James Brown and Sly Stone suddenly stopped the development towards more and more melodic and harmonic music.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank fucking GOD.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 24 April 2003 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

(btw, once you've performed music by James Brown or Sly Stone, it's EXTREMELY hard to claim that it's not melodically/harmonically complex. It's just way too patient for some people.)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 24 April 2003 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

you guys are crazy, R&B is fucking awesome right now. I realized recently that for the first time that I can remember, I'm waiting through most of the rap and rap-sing tracks on the radio to get to the straight rnb....Lil Mo "4Ever" has the most incredible beat, the new Monica is great, R. Kelly has been all over the damn place, "Laundromat" and the orig. "Ignition" especially, plus Just Justin. sure, there's still the usual share of horrible windy ballad hits, and rappers doing r&b tracks is possibly at its worst yet. but goddamn, so far this year has been killer for straight up R&B jams.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 24 April 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I realized recently that for the first time that I can remember, I'm waiting through most of the rap and rap-sing tracks on the radio to get to the straight rnb....

Looks like you listen to the wrong kind of radio station if rap and R&B is all they play

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir, I kiss you.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 24 April 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

never liked contemporary r+b, but some of those Jaheim tracks are nice.

― autovac (autovac), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"mainstream hiphop is in a holding pattern, as the timbaland typerwriter-fonk sound has lasted longer as a "paradigm sound" than perhaps any previous (longer than chic-disco tracks, longer than out of sync boomin drum machines, longer than james brown samples, longer than puffy karaoke) and no one is sure whither next until someone comes outta nowhere (like tim did) to push it somewhere else"

this is an interesting point, but I'm not sure that I buy it. Tim is definitely hugely influential still, but the wave of beat-biters copping his original triplet-heavy sound is long gone (as are those triplets), and I think that once a producer becomes that big of a name, it's as much about the brand as it is about the sound. everyone wants a Neptunes beat, not a beat that's just as good but by a no-name. so while other producers may be taking their cues from them to an extent, I think there's a lot more variety than you're giving credit for. as busy as both Tim and the Neptunes are, there are only so many hits by them on the radio at any given time, and most of the rest of the beats you hear aren't even trying anything similiar (although it bears mentioned that both of them have, to some extent, been trying to do anything but their 'typical' sound for the past couple years).

plus I could argue that a few 'new' sounds have taken over to various extents over the past few years, esp. the Roc-a-fella style sped-up-soul-sample hooks. which is a fun little trick, but I can see it getting old before long, and i hope that Just Blaze and Kanye West have the good sense to jump ship on that idea before it does, because i think they both make great beats, and whether either will reach Neptunes level ubiquity remains to be seen, but i think they've both already surpassed them in quality.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

You know looking at the top hip hop chart and the top rock chart, I notice myself thinking that the hip hop is, for the most part, just kinda boring and only really bad as compared to other hip hop. The rock, however, is so amazingly shitty I want to punch a hole through my computer screen.

― David Allen, Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

And no, that Linkin Park song is NOT good.

― David Allen, Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

It's their best yet, but the rapping still doesn't work.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 24 April 2003 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

two years pass...

never enjoyed the damage that James Brown and Sly Stone did to "black" music.

I don't know what to say.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:00 (twenty years ago)

geir is the gift that keeps on giving

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:06 (twenty years ago)

http://www.thepowerteam.com/graphics/New_PT/WeightsNails.jpg

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:07 (twenty years ago)

I don't know what to say.

hello, you must be new here.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:21 (twenty years ago)

Just Say Geir

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 03:12 (twenty years ago)

I'm not. After the years I still am speechless at that.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 03:22 (twenty years ago)

Alternate question: Why do mainstrean rock and hip-hop suck, but mainstream British chart pop featuring female vocalists (Kylie, Girls Aloud, Rachel Stevens) is good?

― John Hunter, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 04:12 (twenty years ago)

my this was a good thread. and the Geir drop-in was just so perfectly timed to set the thing all haywire and shit.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 05:56 (twenty years ago)

Alternate question: Why do mainstrean rock and hip-hop suck, but mainstream British chart pop featuring female vocalists (Kylie, Girls Aloud, Rachel Stevens) is good?

Because it's girls, d'oh! Music crits are mostly guys, and they need something drool for too. So they have to come up with elaborate theories why girl pop is somehow acceptable whereas boy pop isn't.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 07:57 (twenty years ago)

haha

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:06 (twenty years ago)

All I can say about the original thread is thank god Al showed up, one would think no one hear listens to anything besides Tim and Neptunes beats in rap music.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

Actually apologies to trife, he pointed that out first.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

only indie rock fuxors/non hip hop heads think mainstream hip hop is SO SO SO good

― okok, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

so this is why Radiohead and the White Stripes never get discussed and meanwhile there's a million Cam'ron threads

This still makes me smile.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

Me too.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 21:46 (twenty years ago)

pfork gave a negative review to the (great) new busta single. So much for indie kids loving mainstream rap.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 22:13 (twenty years ago)

Obv that isnt the only contributing factor, pfork seems to give lots of negative reviews to perfectly good rap singles.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

pitchfork in negative-review shockah!

― marc h. (marc h.), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)

only indie rock fuxors/non hip hop heads think mainstream hip hop is SO SO SO good
-- okok (kokok...), October 11th, 2005.

vs.

they both suck pretty bad right now
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), April 23rd, 2003.

(note dates)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 01:02 (twenty years ago)

...not that jess was listening to more than neptunes and timbaland at that time ;)

― deej.. (deej..), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 03:23 (twenty years ago)

i'm actually not sure what i was saying there. Or what matos was saying, for that matter.

― deej.. (deej..), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 03:59 (twenty years ago)

I just found the juxtaposition amusing

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 04:26 (twenty years ago)

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