Can Mainstream Rock or Country be "street" and would Simon Reynolds like it?

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On his blog, writer Simon Reynolds criticized the Rough Trade record
as follows and asserted that Ludacris creams Prefuse 73:

"Still, look at the
blindspots, and they form a pattern. Plenty of digi-dub and
archival roots, but no dancehall; no street rap but loadsa US
undie backpacker biznizz; MC-fronted garage rap, but course there’s a superfluity of “proper” UK hip
hop. Now I’m sure I don’t need to spell it out for you, you’re
all-too-familiar with where I’m coming from on the polemical
tip here. There's a distinct sociocultural bias here, an
unacknowledged exclusionary process at work. It's the
predictability of the syndrome that is depressing, the way the
blindspots just keep recreating themselves along these
determinist class-based lines. Plus the fact that Rough Trade
are probably right, from a business point of view; they have a
very good idea of what their clientele would be interested in,
and their clientele would rather buy Prefuse 73 than some
Ludacris track despite the fact that the latter creams the
former on just about every front, including riddimological
invention.

My bet is that you will find the same patterns replicated in
hipster stores across the world (They certainly operate in the
ones I visit in New York like Other Music---Tower, over the
road from Other, has a far superior stock of UK garage CDs,
thanks to the efforts of import controlla Paul ‘Sci Fi Soul’
Kennedy.) Is it hyperbolic to think of these sort of blindspots
as constituting an unconscious form of cultural apartheid?
Perhaps. But while iIn this age of the glorious interweb there
may indeed be no such thing as marginal music, there are
patently still musics that are marginalized.

All this has an unintended useful side effect, though: what I
call the Rough Trade test. If you want to know if a UK dance
genre still has da vybe, street-wise, if it’s still got its "social
energy" legs" then make sure it's not carried by Rough Trade.

So my questions are: 1. Is there a "street" equivalent for rock and country and while not "marginalized" are these genres also not properly addressed in hipster stores? and
2.Is mainstream rock(say Creed rather then an exception like Radiohead)and mainstream country(say Diamond Rio or Toby Keith) more "inventive" then say Yo La Tengo and Neko Case respectively per Simon's Ludacris/Prefuse 73 comparison?

Like Simon and Sasha and a number of you I happen to find mainstream hiphop(Timbaland, Neptunes etc. productions) more enjoyable aesthetically then mainstream rock (neo-grunge,alt-metal,rap-rock,nu-metal) [and I don't know enough about country] but I thought Simon's (imho overly) broad reductive theory could stand a little analysis...

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Friday, 9 May 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Ludacris vs. Prefuse 73 seems like an unfair comparison. I'll admit that I love Prefuse 73, and couldn't even name you a Ludacris track, and so I'm probably exactly the kind of classist, indie mofo Reynolds is talking about. But I've also been much more receptive to mainstream hip-hop since getting into Prefuse, and I do dig a lot of the stuff I hear on the radio. The reason it's an unfair comparison is that Prefuse 73's approach to hip-hop is more about pure sound than about lyrical mastery, party vibes, etc., and so his music sometimes has more in common with certain ambient electronic stuff than with mainstream "in da club" hip-hop. Reynolds probably should've used someone like Aesop Rock as an example instead.

Apart from that, though, this is a really interesting thread topic. I'll think about it.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Possible reason why mainstream rock and country can't be "street": Because the common denominator of most radio-friendly rock, country, and hip-hop is slick production. And while slick production is an asset in hip-hop -- a mark of creativity -- it is usually derided in rock and country as a mark of soullessness and inauthenticity. That's a rockist viewpoint, to be sure, but it's the dominant one.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:05 (twenty-two years ago)

???

what kind of slick production are you talking about? what sort of audience are you referring to - art school kids? mainstream rock that's "street" in the sense of hip-hop = nu-metal. slickly produced, mass appeal, played on the radio, at sports events, etc. this question should answer itself, considering reynolds was giving props to nu-metal in his faves of 2002.

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:12 (twenty-two years ago)

and could we stop talking about please stop talking about HIM? i think it's affecting the quality of his output (too many lame, mean personal attacks, if i may be specific).

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Ludacris and Scott Herren are both from Atlanta and both got their starts at Hot 97.5 - it might be suggested the gap between the two isn't as large as Simon Reynolds thinks it is. It might also be suggested that when it comes to hip-hop Simon Reynolds doesn't always know what the hell he's talking about.

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:16 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i don't get how prefuse 73 : uk backpacker :: ludacris : uk garage.

uk garage might as well be the music of moon people, for all my luck in finding ONE TRACK (any track!) from 2003.

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

The "sociocultural bias" Reynolds talks about exists, I'm sure, but I'm just as sure that it exists in almost every music consumer. His own slight bias is revealed when he complains that his indie store doesn't carry what he likes, but Tower, which we are led to believe would ordinarily suck, carries more of what he wants. I say, great. Stop bitching. That's why God made more than one record store.

Rough Trade does what it does. If it seems irrelevant to him, that's him. Accusations of "sociocultural bias" (whatever that means) is just him projecting a little too much of his own tastes on the rest of the world.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:25 (twenty-two years ago)

1. Is there a "street" equivalent for rock and country and while not "marginalized" are these genres also not properly addressed in hipster stores?

With all respect, who th' fuck cares? If Reynolds is complaining that the best music isn't hip enough, and if that really bothers him, he has a long, sad life of music consumerism ahead of him.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus, he thought the last Dalek album was "noise" music. What the hell street does he live on? I live on Pine St. and I'm all about Killer Mike and Faith Hill. But a block over on Spruce? Who knows. They are all wankstas over there anyway.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

but that Dalek album sucks!

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

which would be true if it weren't so great. but that still doesn't make it a noise record.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a rap record whether he likes it or not.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:41 (twenty-two years ago)

he didn't say "this is a noise record, not a rap record," though. the actual quote is "Shouldn’t we all be over 'noise' by now?" I mean, he could have said the same thing about El-P and it wouldn't mean he was saying it wasn't rap. (also, it sucks)

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I think S.R. is a fine writer, but he's too hung up on authenticity based on class/race. I think you perpetuate the differences between things by constantly pointing them out instead of playing off of the things that they have in common. He should just complain to Rough Trade until they carry whatever record he thinks they should be carrying. That's what all good customers do.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:46 (twenty-two years ago)

That's what I got out of it. -It's noise, let's move on.- Okay, he didn't actually say it belonged in the genre of "noise" but he might as well have.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

And it doesn't suck, it's really, really good.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:53 (twenty-two years ago)

And I will say this for El-P, at least he was kind enough to put out an instrumental version of his album for noise music lovers.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:55 (twenty-two years ago)

does suck vs doesn't suck!

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Point taken on nu-metal, Vahid. I guess I was looking at it from the perspective of a DeRogatis-like rock critic, though, for whom Disturbed's "street" value is potentially undermined by the slickness of their sound (slickness, like it or not, being a critical signifier of inauthenticity). And then noting that this isn't a standard held to hip-hop, so slick mainstream stuff gets more easily praised.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

name five good working critics for whom slickness is a critical signifier of inauthenticity

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:01 (twenty-two years ago)

The hell with slickness. I think the words authentic and inauthentic should be banned from a critic's vocabulary.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, like I said, Jim DeRogatis. I don't know the distinctive approaches of enough critics to list any others. Isn't that sort of rockist conventional wisdom, though? Or am I making too many assumptions?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

any assumptions = too many assumptions

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

(Actually, maybe not even for DeRogatis. I was thinking of the fact that he hates the BeeGees, but it's not because they went disco, it's because they were white Australian guys who went disco. Meanwhile, he likes Donna Summer. So yes, he's hung up on authenticity, but it's a race/class thing, not an aesthetic thing.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

(Lately, I've been thinking a lot about how certain aesthetic elements in music function as cultural signifiers. So I apologize if that got dragged into this thread without much forethought. But maybe that idea is fraught with complications, anyway, such as the fact that I obviously don't know what the fuck I'm talking about and should leave this kind of thing to the big boys.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't see where simon's leading us to believe tower would ordinarily suck. by "ordinarily" do you mean "it sucks for most things i would be looking for"—by which i guess you mean things not-ludacris-related, or at least not "mainstream"? well there's your marginalization. from the passage you quote it seems like simon's doing a neat trick, an inversion of what marginal music usually means. prefuse 73—from their name on down the list—is any non-mentalist's dictionary definition of "marginal music" but they and the sebadoh b-sides are front-and-center in the store what's got "good taste", not luda. luda's outside the circle. (aw poor luda) have you seen the hip hop vinyl at other music, the pick n mix quality of its tiny sad little bin almost seems willful. it's not just "another record store", there are many like it, with the same fissures and drop-offs. and all of them with totally obvious massive sellers in other sections of the place!!

mainstream country can't be "street" but it can be "road"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:26 (twenty-two years ago)

dirt road

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:38 (twenty-two years ago)

But again you're essentially just complaining that other people don't like it as much as you do. It's not like he can't fucking find the records he wants.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:40 (twenty-two years ago)

What I mean is -- it seems to me that his job as a critic is not to complain about what's in what store. It's to urge people to seek out things they might like, seek being a key word. Otherwise, the argument is just that all record stores should carry and promote more "good" music, i.e. music that I like. And that's just silly.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:43 (twenty-two years ago)

so critics are supposed to leave their advocacy to the sound-object itself but not where you find it? bullshit. that's like saying you shouldn't criticize the cover art or liner notes or anything that doesn't focus exclusively on the sounds the record makes

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:51 (twenty-two years ago)

what if he wrote "kazaa really sucks because they take forever to download stuff off of and their selection is crap, but soulseek has a relatively fast d/l time and carries plenty of what I'm writing about here, which you as a reader/consumer will perhaps be interested in since my job is to alert you to these things"?

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

simon's not complaining about being denied access to anything kenan

some stores have some things and other stores don't have those things—they have other things ;)—and it falls into a class/race pattern (among other factors, no doubt). it's not a mindblowing revelation but i like it, there's something sort of elegaic about it. a sadness to see music he likes get divvied in this particular way.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:57 (twenty-two years ago)

But (I'm frustrated now) why the sadness? What's elegiac about music being divided along race/class lines? Isn't that obvious and kind of eternal? Isn't that like arguing that racism is bad? Yes, of course. But now what?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:00 (twenty-two years ago)

No it's not. It's more like bitching because he has to walk three blocks instead of two. He lives in NYC, fer chrissakes. It's not like he's complaining about Wal Mart. That I could dig. What he's saying, if I understand correctly, is that some stores cater to a clientelle that has has tastes that he thinks could be better. Boo fucking hoo.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think he's being particularly elegaic, or that he's complaining about the walk; it's more like he's annoyed because stores w/this aura of "edge" to them, whose entire existence seems to be centered around getting to things faster than the mainstream competition, are missing out on (some of) the stuff that's effecting musical change, when the entire point of their existence is to be ahead of the curve, musically.

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:07 (twenty-two years ago)

heh I can't tell if Other Music's hip hop section is tragedy or farce

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Hm. Yeah, okay, I see where you're coming from. But I disagree about the entire point of their existence, which I would argue is to make money by cornering whatever market they can. Dance hall doesn't happen to be it right now. Sure, other musicians are listening to it and learning from it, but for the stores, that doesn't necessarily translate into paying the rent.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:10 (twenty-two years ago)

again, place the blame on the customerbase, not the store management - you can't blame them for wanting to stay in business

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank you, James.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Dance hall doesn't happen to be it right now

I just want to savor this for a moment.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Eat shit.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok, so the argument then is that these stores should be carrying dance hall because people are clamoring for it, and they are ignoring an obvious need. If that's true, my mind is changed.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:16 (twenty-two years ago)

no, they're clamoring for Pressure Sounds reissues of early dancehall and Kid606-style bastardizations of the current stuff and that stupid Mo' Wax Now Thing instrumentals set because a lot of the stores we're talking about don't actually stock the current fucking thing

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Dammit I had a zinger all lined up! CURSES!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

So you're saying that instead of giving the people what they want, the store should be giving the people what they need. That, in essence, the stores should be acting as critics? Mind you, I'm just asking. I'm allowing at this point that I may be wrong.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Go ahead with your zinger, Tracer. If it makes you feel better.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

not "what they need"--what, based on the fact that the new Pressure Sounds King Jammy comp and Now Thing both sold pretty well, they might want, if given the opportunity to have it.

let me just nb. that I do like Other Music and shop there a lot, and the fact that Tower is right across the street probably influences what they buy to some degree. but my (and I think Tracer's) objections stand. it's not like this is all that hard--Kim's, three blocks away, carries the same basic stuff as Other only their hip-hop section is really fucking good.

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

nb I do not have actual data on the sales of those two CDs, but I've seen them in stock, seen people buy them, heard them being played on the store PA et al.

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:24 (twenty-two years ago)

for the record

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm beginning to see what's going on here -- I'm arguing that it's overly romantic to assume that stores do anything but make money. You're arguing that with knowledgable employees and carefully placed end caps, these stores could be selling a lot of better music. The truth, as always, likely lies somewhere in the middle.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:26 (twenty-two years ago)

* fade to commercial *

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I seem to kill a lot of threads by making arguments like that. Sorry.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:30 (twenty-two years ago)

stores can influence customer's taste, but not nearly to the degree the customer's taste influences the store. the argument 'let's stock this record because it's great/current/relevant' doesn't carry nearly as much weight as 'let's stock this record because it will sell' with most record store owners, very few of whom are in the business for altruistic reasons (and many of whom are too old and jaded to give a fuck about what's great/current/relevant).

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:31 (twenty-two years ago)

And after you've owned a record store for about ten minutes, it's something of a herculean act of will to not immediately start stocking the billboard top ten.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:35 (twenty-two years ago)

well, I worked for one of the oldest and jadedest shopowners in NYC for ten months, and I know what you're talking about. the thing about a place like Other, though, is that it's built on the notion that if you walk into this store, you will learn about great/current/relevant music.

Kenan--I don't mean "better," I mean "not all that fucking dissimilar except it doesn't have the patina of a historically important curated reissue." what's frustrating is that stuff like garage rap is gonna be the stuff that ends up on some Pressure Sounds-style compilation in 10-20 years, at which point stores like the ones we're discussing will eat them for breakfast

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I don't see what you can do about that except to not ignore those artists now. And that's just you. You can write about it, or course... :-)

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:39 (twenty-two years ago)

or=of

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:39 (twenty-two years ago)

what I'm arguing, Kenan, is that the race and class boundaries we've erected around our little fiefdoms do just as much marginalizing and divvying as bottom-line market pressure does, and the two aren't mutually exclusive. You think the guys who run these shops don't think about this stuff, that's all they think about all day, what to stock, who they're attracting, if ppl like THIS then they like this other thing as well, the stores are critics by default, like a radio station playlister is. I mean granted the thinking is probably done while hungover, etc but you get my drift. Even frickin Sam Goody's has some team in some horrid little industrial park tasked with putting a document together about how the stock fits with the brand-image.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm resisting the temptation to pick that argument apart just for the sake of doing it. You're right, of course.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait a minute... you are Simon Reynolds, aren't you?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:44 (twenty-two years ago)

eh i'm not really arguing anyway. * is suddenly depressed *

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:45 (twenty-two years ago)

haha no but i play him on the electron future-web!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I was depressed from the get-go.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Kenan Hebert, ladies and gentlemen!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:46 (twenty-two years ago)

And our special guest Michelangelo Matos!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:47 (twenty-two years ago)

:::applause:::

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:47 (twenty-two years ago)

James Blount and jaymc!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:48 (twenty-two years ago)

and then everyone goes home depressed.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Depressed and sleep-deprived.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:50 (twenty-two years ago)

and then they all lez up, dejectedly

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:50 (twenty-two years ago)

in a fervent, passionless fit of denial

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay you're scaring the crowd, Kenan.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, a special thank you to VAHID (* scattered dog whoops *) and gaz!!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(BTW, Kenan, I admire you for sticking this thread out. You'll notice that I got all huffy and sarcastic earlier, and high-tailed it for the one you started.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm mixing beer and wine. Cut me some slack. I'll pay for it tomorrow.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:55 (twenty-two years ago)

(I'm back for the curtain call, though.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, at the very least, I'm not completely stubborn.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know why, but "scattered dog whoops" is very, very funny to me right now.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:56 (twenty-two years ago)

amyl nitrate?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Take a bow, jaymc!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Everyone, give Tracer a Hand!

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Tracer in Ed Sullivan voice: "Thank yew! Thank yew!"

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha!

And everybody give it up for scott seward!

Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:59 (twenty-two years ago)

CURTAIN

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:59 (twenty-two years ago)

~ made possible by Steve Kiviat and a generous grant from the Simon Reynolds Foundation ~

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Next on PBS....

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 07:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Mystery!

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 07:01 (twenty-two years ago)

*click*

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 07:01 (twenty-two years ago)

heh. in the rec stores I go to there isn't even a hip-hop section.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 9 May 2003 07:14 (twenty-two years ago)

All this, and I never once mentioned that I don't care too much for Ludacris.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 07:29 (twenty-two years ago)

(neither do I)

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 07:46 (twenty-two years ago)

*THE END*

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 08:57 (twenty-two years ago)

er not quite:

btw i mailed SR and told him that about a year or two ago rough trade did actually have a garage section, at least in the covent garden one. it was small, and badly picked, but it was there. it then disappeared. how much is this an indication that they were aware that it was something that needed to be addressed, but found was just not what rough trade customers want?- ie it didnt seel, hence pulling the section?
how much does this change the argument?

― ambrose (ambrose), Friday, 9 May 2003 09:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't get what simon is saying. Indepedent record shops stock music they think its good but that more mainstream outlets won't stock (types of music that they are just not commited to).

so if Ludacris is on a mainstream label they aren't stocking it bcz you can get it anywhere surely. whether you think its good or not doesn't come into it. we all know loads of independent music are crap as well as mainstream stuff.

Record shops can't stock everything.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 9 May 2003 09:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah Julio but RT stock a ton of stuff you can get anywhere. HMV is way way hipper than it used to be, and cheaper than Rough Trade. Select-a-Disc and even horrible Gothy Sister Ray are often cheaper than either: what SR is objecting to I think is that Rough Trade has a colossal reputation for backing the right new horses and this disguises the shop's flaws. (Where RT *is* good, mind you, it's pretty great but increasingly this is in ultra-niche areas)

Talking about 'the job of a critic' etc is a bit irrelevant - SR is a paid music critic but he blogs as a private individual and if something's pissing him off then he should whack it down like the rest of us do.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 9 May 2003 09:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah the actual equivalent here would have been someone in 1980 saying "Rough Trade's clientele would rather buy Gang of Four than some Steely Dan album despite the fact that the latter creams the
former on just about every front, including social commentary."

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 9 May 2003 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

''Yeah Julio but RT stock a ton of stuff you can get anywhere. HMV is way way hipper than it used to be, and cheaper than Rough Trade. Select-a-Disc and even horrible Gothy Sister Ray are often cheaper than either''

well you have a point on RT's pricing which can be a rip off compared to the same records at These records or sound 323 in highgate and you can get some wonderful bargains at selectadisc. I did say 'Independent record shops' (since he mentions 'other music' as well) rather than 'RT' which I hardly go to (though i went there last week).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 9 May 2003 10:06 (twenty-two years ago)

ambrose, did SR reply your mail? i'm curious.

― joan vich (joan vich), Friday, 9 May 2003 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Indepedent record shops stock music they think its ~~good~~ sells. Most/all recordshops have one aim: make profit. Maybe they'll *pretend* that educating or filling a gap is the main goal, the most important thing is that they don't go bankrupt/make a living.

― nathalie (nathalie), Friday, 9 May 2003 10:20 (twenty-two years ago)

well, that's the way the world is, what do you want them to do? anyway, i think there is a place in the middle, where you try to sell what you think it's good (although there surely is some stuff you think it's great but you don't even stock because you can't sell it).

― joan vich (joan vich), Friday, 9 May 2003 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Filling a gap is a pretty basic starting point for commercial success, obviously.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 9 May 2003 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Remember the old adage, "Sell what you know". And if you don't know anything than just sell Ludacris records.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 10:31 (twenty-two years ago)

God dammit, what the fuck is UK Garage?!

― David Allen, Friday, 9 May 2003 11:04 (twenty-two years ago)

see, i didn't read it carefully but i think SR is just making a fairly simple (raed Tracer's "argument" again) correlation between what a shop stocks/what people buy and how it can be read as falling into a race/class pattern.
he's not necessarily being prescriptive about it.
he's just pointing out the bleedin' obvious.

after all, if you was a sarf lahndon garridge geezer, you ent gonna be shoppin in covent garden...

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

which doesn't discount ambrose's question.

what were RT attempting to do in having a garage section?

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

But he's not just pointing it out. He's depressed by it. I don't think there is any reason that he should be (depressed about it).

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 12:18 (twenty-two years ago)

1. Is there a "street" equivalent for rock and country and while not "marginalized" are these genres also not properly addressed in hipster stores?

No, no street equivalent. Not in the sense that "street=good" anyway. In America, hip-hop & R&B are the only genres that simultaneously sell huge & also generate an interesting critical response (the latter seems closely connected to what is stocked in "hipster" record stores).

2.Is mainstream rock(say Creed rather then an exception like Radiohead)and mainstream country(say Diamond Rio or Toby Keith) more "inventive" then say Yo La Tengo and Neko Case respectively per Simon's Ludacris/Prefuse 73 comparison?

Definitely no with the rock, not so sure about country. It seems like Shania Twain is probably more daring than the alt-country people, but I don't know enough of either to say, really. I mean, that recent Shania Twain album being released in 3 formats is getting into Zaireeka territory.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

ss: depressed by significant signs of racial/class divides in UK society? why wouldn't he be?

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I picked up some Durutti Column and Autechre and Neu quite cheap in Sister Ray when I was in London at the weekend, and Full On V1 by Todd Edwards in HMV. The guy at the counter was much more chatty in HMV than SR; the guy in SR was just old and absent-minded. I'd like to see Simon Reynolds try record shopping in Exeter. The guys in Reform/Replay would kill him. And Solo would make him commit suicide cos they have no dance music at all but loads of classical and loads of 'alternative/punk'. That piece above puts Reynolds across as an old folky-lefty-socialist-'up the proles' type chap; doesn't that, in his own way, make him as reactionary as Paul Weller-ites with their campaign for 'real music made on real instruments made out of real wood', ie; Reynolds is after 'real music made by real working class people who really live on real streets and are concerned with documenting real cultures rather than making fake art' which is a; a bit patronising, and b; a bit boring too. As for the whole 'what should record shops stock' thing, some of us would be thankful to be able to go in Tower or Other, and most of us who frequently use record shops know what to expect from them in terms of wat they might have.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I asked a question ages back - an interesting question, or I think so anyway - about the extent to which people's selection of record shops (or the selection available) actually determined their tastes rather than just reflected them.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you folks buy the notion that "street" music(I guess he means music first popularized via sales on tapes sold on urban street corners) has in Simon's words, "da vibe" and "social energy" in a way that other music doesn't? It does sound a bit patronizing, doesn't it.

When Simon praises rock music he likes he doesn't apply this theory, does he. As someone pointed out earlier regarding Gang of 4 vs Steely Dan...

But are folks who buy dub rather than dancehall stuck in the past? But isn't that the consumer's choice...

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Sure, definitely an interesting questions. Also pertienent if you buy a lot of used stuff -- who is selling records at this shop? With used music, there's a certain pool that's drawn from for the stock, and what you end up buying is determined by who is in that pool. So trends in the group will influence what you buy.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:38 (twenty-two years ago)

That is a good question, Tico. I use all the record shops in Exeter except Replay/Reform because the guys in that shop scare the shit outta me. But the most useful record shop for me lately has def. been the internet, Boomkat and Leaf for electronica etcetera and Amazon for pretty mcuh anything else. I'm lucky in that I use the net everyday though so finding and ordering stuff online is easy. How much does impulse play a part in buying music; because real record shops (as opposed to online ones) must factor that in, ie; someone liking the cover of summat and buying it on spec. What record shops you use take on real importance in terms of that.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the Gang of 4 / Steely Dan thing would have been (and is) a thoroughly agreeable opinion.

But saying "oh SR doesn't think like this about rock music" is missing the point about him - he doesn't think rock music has ANY 'relevancy' any more, it's pretty much ALL Prefuse 73 to him so the fact that some of it sells and some of it doesn't is beside the point.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah! Steve Kiviat! Another member of the Swellsville posse! Woo!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I think when you boil it down, Reynold's argument is kind of puerile. Other Music never pretended to cover all the music that is good - not even close. They have a well-defined area of specialization: indie, electronica, avant-garde, noise - essentially stuff that is on independent labels. Any successful boutique music shop has to specialize - that's the only way they can compete with the big chain stores. People go to stores like Other Music when they're searching for a release in a certain style on a non-major label, because they know they have a better chance of finding it there than at Tower. It just doesn't make any sense economically for a little boutique shop like that to try to cover all styles of music. This isn't "cultural apartheid" (whatever the hell that is) - but simple niche marketing. Reynolds is either ignorant of some basic facts about why people patronize certain stores, or else he is being willfully obtuse. Basically he would like to have a "Reynolds Records" shop that carries everything Simon Reynolds thinks is good and nothing else. If he thinks that's such a great idea, maybe he should open it himself - but I don't think it would last very long - because the purpose of the shop is too vague to be useful to anyone who isn't Simon Reynolds.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

o fck...*pulls hair out*

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

(major xpost but it still works)

I liked Reynolds' argt quite a lot, since the shops are, as someone said, effectively sites of criticism, where the rubber meets the road. I don't think he's lamenting his inability to find "one-stop-shopping," but criticizing places that purport to be that and have huge obvious holes in their stock/aesthetic.

And I don't know anything abt NYC geography but the fact that Other is across the street from Tower seems really telling.

(tho in my own resentful, rural way I do have a twige of sympathy for the "what's his fkn prob?" people on this thread. Other AND Tower [how many floors?], just across the street? Paradise!!)

Since the market marginalizes so much music, and the indie shop world acts (nobly enough I suppose) to work in that margin, the idea of "good music" ends up being a kind of photonegative of the lizards' priorities rather than an honest look at What's Happening. He's right, that's too bad.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone think rock music has any relevency anymore?

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

What's relevency? Sometimes it's good; that's all. Same with everything else, maybe.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

''Maybe they'll *pretend* that educating or filling a gap is the main goal, the most important thing is that they don't go bankrupt/make a living.''

yup, and one way to do this is to stock music that isn't easy to find through regular outlets.

'relevancy' isn't the point. rock and guitars sell recs and its all here to stay.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

There's also an element of enjoying the "I'm marginalised" one-upmanship though isn't there? "I'm into this even though the indie tastemekers are applying their cultural apartheid yeah". Evidence for this: SR is wrong about Rough Trade's attitude to dancehall (they like it and stock a good deal, among the top three in the West End) and UK hip hop (they're not very good at it at all). He seems pretty keen to find evidence for *his* marginalisation. This isn't a criticism, I do the same thing from various different angles.

I think the piece is an interesting insight into how music retail has changed masquerading as an unreasonable rant. Holding RT up to an unwritten manifesto made donkeys' years ago in completely different conditions seems harsh.

― Tim (Tim), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah I agree Nick, relevency can be irrelevent, but I guess I was asking do people see sociological or cultural interest with rock music anymore? Does anyone try and claim this even? If so how? (and maybe why, haha, not really)

I think often this is bogged down by people not being willing to just say "no it's not relevent" because they think somehow this means it can't be good. Which it doesn't.

relevancy isnt the point

To you perhaps it's not THE point but it is A point.

Obviously.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Rough Trade actually has an excellent dancehall dub-plates section that is frequently refreshed. As for garage, well even shops like Blackmarket have trouble getting hold of new dubs; it's not so much "sociocultural bias" as garage producers' (see Wiley) reluctancy to make their releases widely available.

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks ss, at last...

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

To me, cuz I'm a simpleton, it really does boil down to:Do you get mad at the bakery for not having the kind of cheese that you want? Are they anti-cheese? Don't they know how great cheese is? In their childhood, when they were future bakers were they not taught to love cheese? To put it another way:Do I get huffy with the hop-hop store that I frequent cuz they don't carry Acid Mother Temple albums? What are they afraid of? And deciding what to sell on the basis of current relevancy is silly.Oh, I could go on forever. I assume Rough Trade would order records for you, no? Absences prove nothing. What DO they do there? Do they do it well?

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

It sells loads = it is relevant on a sociological basis, surely?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, I've been away; was that Dalek album any good?

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

it's really really good.be on the lookout for their collab with faust. you will be able to find it at other music and rough trade.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Reynolds is after the naturalistic cultural narrative of history as written by real people on real street corners, not all this fake stuff made up by phonies. Just call him Winston Smith.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

sst: aw man i'm confused. just tell me if it sucks or not?

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

but specialty shops aren't about being relevant. they are about something else.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Or Joseph Conrad.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Rough Trade definitely caters for a certain kind of listener. The kind of listener who perhaps won't venture into say Blackmarket or Dub Vendor to pick up some garage or dancehall because they feel too white or too middle class. Perhaps this is what SR is getting at?

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah and the ironing is delicious in that case

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone knows that Dalek-bashing is cultural imperialism perpetuated by Ludacris apologists.Or something.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

he doesn't wanna go to scary record stores? Yikes! that is depressing. but hardly his point, i doubt.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

"Hey, indie fans, you like music that is marginalized, overlooked, and misunderstood? You want to be part of an elite in-crowd of musical cognoscenti, but maybe the indie crowd just isn't elite enough for you any more? Well, here's how you can out-hipster the hipsters! Just think: indie music fans marginalize music too, don't they? Except the music that is marginal in the indie world is the music that is mainstream in the non-indie world! Once you've grasped that, suddenly Christina Aguilera is more marginal than Cat Power! Avril Lavigne is more marginal than Portastatic! Amazing! But now you're worried that people will mistake your super-elite reverse-indie stance with the run-of-the-mill taste of the great unwashed strip-mall masses? Well, that's okay, just remember to let on that you used to be an indie fan, name-drop a few hip indie bands, and then tell everyone how this new major-label artist is actually way ahead of that indie shit! Everyone will be in awe of your advanced taste!"

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

The kind of listener who perhaps won't venture into say Blackmarket or Dub Vendor to pick up some garage or dancehall because they feel too white or too middle class

Vive L'Interweb!

Scott - Simon's beef is that RT doesn't present itself as a specialist shop.

O.Nate - back to square one I see.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim and SS are OTM about Rough Trade and Dancehall. I think it's worth pointing out that when you're talking about RT, that the differences between the two retail sites in London are quite marked. You only have to look at the Covent Garden album of the month sections on the website - in the last two months William Basinski and Alva Noto/Ryuchi Sakamoto - to see how how seperate they are in terms of recommendations to the Talbot Road shop.

― Nathan W (Nathan Webb), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This is the man who invented the term post-rock? Who now only likes stuff that's not part of the sociocultural bias? What does he think of Cannibal Ox? Does he now not like Bark Psychosis? Are black people the only people who are any good at being 'street' and documenting cultural reality/change? Does white culture take black social trends and cultures and turn them into 'art'? Is DJ Shadow guilty of this? Or Prefuse 73? Or El-P? How does El-P's production of black artists like Cannibal Ox stand with this cultural appropriation and transformation? What does he think of AR Kane? How many black artists are making 'experimental' or 'art' music? How many white artists are documenting social and cultural trends? Are they not allowed to cross over? Where are the lines drawn? Who's uncomfortable buying what? Who's a hipster? Where does jazz fit in with all of this? Was Miles Davis white? Am I a prick?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i mean i have no idea about rough trade. but i do know that smaller stores that try to do too much often end up doing nothing well.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Reynolds sees record stores as reflecting cultural and class tendencies of music fans. He wants the indie label stores and their customers to embrace the music that he considers street and relevant. He sees UK garage and mainstream hiphop and dancehall as relevant, and he seems to be enthused that some people are discovering the A Certain Ratio /Pil/Delta 5 early 80s postpunk, but I'm wondering whether looking back if the early 80s postpunk would meet his current "street" music is real is relevant is better test.
With a few occasional exceptions he's not embracing current rock or country and he's not applying any theories to why people buy such music and how it is created and whether or not any of it is 'relevant.'

Some folks would argue that Yea Yea yeahs, White Stripes etc. are somehow reinventing rock and are not simply retro and repeating things; and that nu-metal is not overly bombastic; and that maybe Ludacris isn't really taking what the Cold Crush Brothers did years ago that much further. I'm staying conveniently on the fence. Also, now it's UK garage but wasn't jungle once the only music Reynolds felt was relevant? Some of this trying to stay on the latest and hippest and most relevant tip is a little trying. Plus Reynolds is getting into issues of race. In his 21st century adaptation of Alan Lomax he's decided, as noted earlier, which styles are relevant and which aren't. I wish he would just better explain why he's more interested in music made in 2003 by teenagers of the African diaspora, and why he think rock music(largely made these days by Anglos) is no longer relevant to him the way it was in 1981.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Another good indicator of RT's progress is the 7" singles rack (i can only really speak for Covent Garden here) - about 5 years ago it was primarily Sub Pop, K shit like that; now, almost HALF of the 7" rack is Dancehall. This rocks.

Anyway, who the fuck other than a DJ wants to spend 9 quid on a poorly pressed UKG dub plate?

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

um, just to get back(kinda)to the question posed at the start, besides rap, rock and country are what you will here on most "streets" in the u.s. Those three musics are the predominant sounds of most streets in other words.and some of the streets are really "slick" in the winter. we call that black ice but it's not a put-down or anything.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

doesn't he have a post punk book coming out? or he's writing one, anyway. isn't he?

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey O Nate! You like music that is marginalized overlooked and misunderstood?

No really you do. hahahahhahaha.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

"Street" is just as much of a pose as anything else, anyway. Merle Haggard and Johnny Paycheck were tough dudes but the "outlaw" image was calculated. I doubt Simon's interested; not enough compression and bass and crazy hi-hat patterns. But maybe I'm listening to the wrong country music!

I like his blog, I'm glad he's writing it. I noticed Steve thinks it's "affecting the quality" of his writing. Is there anything to this? William Gibson is giving up his blog, saying "a watched pot never boils".

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sorry VAHID thinks it's affected the quality of his writing (* whoop whoop whoop *).

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

a. it's just a blog, thinking out loud, etc etc. stop taking it as sermon on the mount, esp when s.r. is in "amateur sociologist" mode.

b. his argument - at base, before it even picks up any class, race, or cultural associations - breaks down to: "why isn't rough trade stocking this ultra-cool, waaaaaaay underground music (uk garage) and instead stocking this lame bullshit you can read about in any dance mag?" which is the ULTIMATE indie argument. in fact, one of the reasons the "street" = "mainstream" analogy falls to shit is in trying to look at it from an american perspective: wiley kat is 10x more obscure and "underground" than cat power, esp. over here.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

i saw dalek live and thought they were really good
and much and all as i hate to admit it,surely the fact that "rock",whether it be the white stripes or nickelback,is selling well means it is relevant
as for the other music thing,its been said upthread,but surely it is just a case of people opening a store with the kind of music they like that is difficult to get elsewhere,and even if they all loved ludacris its not what they sell-they don't claim to sell "music that leads the way" or whatever,they claim to sell other music,which they do...

― robin (robin), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

welcome to the morning shift jess

thank you robin

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm only making a brief cameo in order to boost my profile for the upcoming indie guilt 2: the gift & the curse.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought we were on Indie Guilt 7 by now. It's like Jason. The motherfucker just won't die.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, what robin said!- On some level it's an attitude that is anti-indie-obscurity-naval-gazing. I can relate to that. I go on jags where i listen to nothing but 60's guitar gunk for a week or two and i get this feeling like i'm out of it and need to engage with the real world . so i turn on mtv, watch a sean paul video and feel connected again. or listen to some friday night freestyles on the radio or write Eve a poem or something. I gotta say S.R. riles me up when i read him and i like that! not many people can rile me up or know how to. I hardly ever agree with him, but that's okay. I wish more people did it. The only time i ever got riled up on ILM was when some dude made fun of bow wow wow and said they were awful. grrrrr! That's it, though.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

We could, like, talk bad about your mother if you want.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

BOW WOW WOW NUFF SKET BOYZ GET ME

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

DONT TESS FASS I KNOW YOU BE WATCH DEM CHICHI MOWHAWKS FLEXIN DEM 2 WAY DILDA

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Who wants to be in touch? The whole reason I listen to music is to get out of touch! If somethign that's important or relevent does that then so be it, but if something 'indie' or whatever does it then I'm gonna listen to that instead. Or as well as.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

well said!

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

hmmm, matos couldn't really get me going with the dalek thing, i'll have to think about it.I'll let you know.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

ME SEEN NUFF CHI CHI PUNKS WITH WHAT IS LIKE A OBSCURE 7" VINYL FLEXIN AND TING OVER DA NET

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I liked it better when it was Indie Guilt 2: The Search for Curly's Gold.

― hstencil, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess's description of S.R.'s take makes me realize why I still hate the privileging of the underground in any context.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i like to be in touch. or partly anyway. I wanna know what people are listening to and what people are doing. Pop music is some sorta cultural whatzit or a way of gauging something or other.sorry for being so technical.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I stay 'in touch' to a degree to find stuff that sends me out of touch, if that makes sense...

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

you should check out hall & oates

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

It makes sense in itself, but it makes your other post not make sense.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Using the currency of pop music to gauge the way other people think and act in a broad rather than a specific sense seems like a total mug's game.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I would have to drive three hours to Chicago to find a garage 7" and they probably wouldn't have what I wanted anyway. Y'all stop complaining.

― Adam A. (Keiko), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This is funny in a sense because it reminds of me of when I went into Other Music in like 1997 and asked if they had the Genius/GZA Liquid Swords album. I don't think they even had a hip-hop section then.

― hstencil, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

wait did i mention that i LOVE current modern pop music and always have. i think i forgot that part. I'm not a sociologist though. I don't work in theories. I AM interested in what different people like and why they like it.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

It's cool that on countless bus stops over London you can find written things like "DIZZEE IS BUFF" "ROLLDEEP ARE TICK" written in thick black marker pen. So exciting.

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

That's probably the record label's street team at work.

― Ben Williams, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm gonna start writing that all over town, i think

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

with regard to the whole record shop influencing your taste,what do people think about djs who mix a certain type of dance music,say hard techno or microhouse or breaks or whatever,something reasonably specific,who go record shopping and the guy behind the counter knows what type of music they mix and gives them the new stuff along the same lines to listen to every time they go into the shop?
i mean,i suppose its logical,but it does make you one step removed from choosing your set...
i dunno how common this is,but i've been led to believe its fairly normal...

― robin (robin), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

It is normal. It's not like the clerk is filtering much. It would be ridiculous for someone to say, "Well, here's the new rock records." But like you say, hardhouse is pretty darn specific. I can't imagine an unmanagable amount of it is released each week.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

ha!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

It would be ridiculous for someone to say, "Well, here's the new rock records."

"Here's the new new rock records." would make perfect sense tho.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I'm no DJ, obv.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm so sick of people asking if music has any relevancy. It all has relevancy to someone. If some 15 year old kid in Iowa buys a Creed album and listens to it 20 times and totally relates and understands, and it touches him and is affected, then FUCK EVEN CREED IS RELEVANT. They're selling records to someone, ya know.

― David Allen, Friday, 9 May 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Whew--what the fuck is Simon Reynolds takin', I want some of it!

I heard Ludacris on the radio recently, driving around in my bland Midwestern home...Ludacris is talking about fuckin' some chicks at the gig, etc., and the various ways he'll do it, then he leaves. Three cheers for the man Ludacris, gettin' some. I think it's fantastic and it's a fantasy of many of us, prolly including Simon R. But I simply don't know how you make these marginal distinctions... what a gig, almost as good a gig as Ludacris's, just not with as much "action."

Simon R. should come to any anonymous burb in this great bland country of ours and just listen to the "urban" radio station for a couple days, eat some hamburgers (here they make good onion rings) and then maybe he'd quit writing such idiot bullshit...I mean really, what does he think he's doing? There is indeed a small segment of people who worry about these kinda things, "class" and whether or not some record store clerk knows about same...as if record-store clerks mean shit. The rest of the folk here listen to the radio and get their take-out, like good Americans...I mean, really, is this what going to University makes ya, a twat like Simon Reynolds, endlessly parsing something that is blatantly obvious, like Ludacris? Lord help the boy...

― Jess Hill (jesshill), Friday, 9 May 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Reynolds was a hero to most but he never meant shit to me, that sucker is bullshit, simple and pure, A.R. Kane is better than the Cure?!?!?!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 9 May 2003 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

jess hill is jess' evil twin

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 9 May 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

it's true, you know.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

A.R. Kane is better than the Cure?!?!?!

I admit this is hard to maintain.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 May 2003 21:20 (twenty-two years ago)

but david, though what you say [about creed] seems so right, and in many respects it is right, think about it for a minute, there is another important way of looking at it:

not all forms of art serve ends useful to the consumer. some in fact exploit the consumer. advertising, propaganda, producers forcing stupid songs into their director's movies cos the bands are chattel of the megacorp...

a mcdonald's jingle has musical value and people like it. but it does bad things to people: the human race is less healthy for its constant airing between tv kids shows. [note: i must overlook that classic, "i'd like to buy the world a coke", which was my generation's over the rainbow]

if you look at music history, it's full of con artists ripping off the innovators: the white cover records of the 50s, the big band color barrier, etc. now, from one perspective, a pat boone version of a ray charles tune is itself an innovation: he tones it down, prettifies it with a choir.

but since there is money involved, creative careermanship, some people make polemical statements. "pat boone records are pale imititations" or "creed sucks because they're watered down [less guitar detuning and literary reaching] pearl jam and that's a tired sound anyway".

such a statement has value, as does pointing out that it was shoved down the throats of the radio listeners through payola.

there's a small amount of genuine merit in a mcdonald's combo meal too, but complaining about it is also a useful thing to do if you can back it up with recommendations for a better lunch restaraunt that isn't really any more expensive, or you convince the kid to make his own lunch.

re: rough trade/other music not carrying garage... maybe i'm being overly reductionist but indie shops that specialize in the current lo fi post punk and bedroom idm and make their bread and butter off reissues from the 50s,60s&70s and vinyl couldn't ever sell their clientele much dance music because their clientele don't dance that much, they sit around listening to records. hence you will still find tons of relatively current jungle/drum n bass in their used bins but paltry amounts of other kinds of contemp. dance genres, they don't accept it cos they know it probably won't sell during the genre's trend window.

― mig, Friday, 9 May 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i could be mistaken but i think OM has a "ghetto tech" section

of course Ludacris is not "ghetto tech"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

heh, if anyone is really "ghetto tech" tho its luda

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

raising the question.....

waaaaait a minute, this is a rerun!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

http://tvparty.com/vgifs12/whatshap2-1.jpg

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 May 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess is the ubergod.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 May 2003 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, but rerun was a sell-out doobie brothers fan. He should have been listening to Rick James.

― scott seward, Saturday, 10 May 2003 03:15 (twenty-two years ago)

while we're on the subject of simon reynold's blog,would i be betraying a surprising degree of naivite if i were to reveal that i have no idea what a "cleavage induced body-fart" is?

anyone care to enlighten me?

― robin (robin), Saturday, 10 May 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

ok ok ok ok ok

CAN NOONE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER USE A FUCKING MCDONALDS ANALOGY AGAIN.

Thank you.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 10 May 2003 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe joy press can enlighten you

― James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 10 May 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 May 2003 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

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