RFI from Pashimina - it's a prog-rock type thing

When you get to the point where "punk" bands are totally manufactured thrown together bands like Busted and the Strokes playing in stadiums where are you gonna go for your true rock rebellion and your boundary pushing?

The Vines are playing in stadiums, and I'm down in a sweaty basement watching prog rock/experimental bands dragging string sections onstage with them and impaling Hammond Organs and laptops with knives like they are Emerson Lake and Palmer because this is a world where punk is the new Establishment. Swing too far to the left and you will come out on the right. So to be really boundary-pushing, you have to give a look-back to the sort of music that punk destroyed.

Sigh. I hate writers. I hate people who are able to write on concept and to deadlines cause I can't bloody do it. I've spent the past few days sitting at a computer facing fukcing awful writers block which I've *never* experienced in my life before. :-(

just clear yr head - with regards to writers block and write down anything - it's easy to edit ten pages of babble than sit there thinking of the 'perfect idea' - i'm about to send off via mail - to a UK edgy style magazine - a demo of the perfect band for next year - but i'm worried that they are going to scoop me on the band!!!!!!!!!

I was going to sit down and try to start a thread on the subject I need to write about, but I can't even get it together for that. Though thankfully it's slow enough at work today that i might be able to.

Though I'm right on the rebellion element - Prog is the last "unacceptible" and "uncool" music.

prog-rock, yeah, it is the least acceptable form of rock'n'roll but hell, isnt my bloody valentine the last great prog-rock band of all time??

There's also the thing that Prog is deeply teenage boy territory. Girls don't like it, and that adds that sort of male cache. It's a return to childhood, to boyhood, musically complicated, but emotionally uncomplicated - prog songs are about goblins and elves and outer space, where the demons and bad guys are clear and obvious.

i prefer goblin!

off to mail this cd!!!

Where's your evidence for this statement?

It's hard to draw parallels to prog and new music though, because while there is almost certainly an argument to be made for lots of diff bands, the fact that lots of diff bands can draw from it probably means prog appealed to diff people in diff ways -- ie, it's hard to argue prog had "defining characteristics". Henry Cow and Albert Marcoeur likely gave NWW lots of pleasure, while ELP and Happy the Man did not.

Where's your evidence for this statement?

Witnessing an incredibly long and incredibly stoned and incredibly indepth discussion between Brad Laner of Medicine and the bassist of the band I was in at the time, in which they tried to out-prog each other, and Brad Laner won by a landslide. So there.

I don't think a hard & fast def of prog rock ir necessary, or in fact possible. I don't think it is necessary because I fear it would tend to be used to ring-fence a bunch of music which would be deemed unacceptable by its very nature, and *no* music is unacceptable by its very nature as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think it's possible, because as far as the original progressive music "movement" goes (i don't think it was a "movement" or even an "idea", rather a bunch of musicians bored w/what had gone before, & wanting to do s.th. different in some way) it was too wide, and the edges too blurry, so to speak. Like, if you have any old Harvest label LPs, they used to come with this great inner sleeve, which had the covers from a bunch of other Harvest releases printed on it, mainly a bunch of deep purple spin-offs, none of whom were very good, really (tho' some of the covers were nice, like Quatermass for example) but you's also get, to take the two most seemingly un-prog examples, Third Ear Band and Shirley & Dolly Collins. Third Ear Band made these weird raga-esgue drone pieces, I have their albums "Alchemy" and "Macbeth", and I'm increasingly thinking that they are really exceptional pieces. Shirley & Dolly's 2 main Harvest Releases were "Love, Death and the Lady" and "Anthems in Eden". They were song suites of traditional Folk material, arranged by Dolly for portative flute organ and medieval instrument ensemble, and sung By Shirley. I think they are some of the best records ever made. Neither of them were in any way representative of what "prog rock" has come to mean, but they were both progressive records, part of the progresssive scene for want of a better term, and released on a progressive label. It is wrong, totally, utterly wrong to point to the big prog names and say this (yes, genesis etc boo hiss) is prog, and this (whoever else from then who is in some way more critically acceptable) isn't. Also, if yer going to point to some kraut rock alumnus and say they would be horrified to be labelled prog rock, you should at the very least know that a lot of the "classic" (bleh) prog musicians also would, and did say the same thing. I had this interview w/Tony Banks from Genesis, at the time when marillion et al were getting some press, and the interviewer asks him if he's flattered by all these bands knocking off early genesis, and banks is TOTALLY MYSTIFIED as to why anyone would think genesis were a "prog rock" band, then there's this interview w/roger waters where he's dismissive of progressive music, nothing to do with me guv, etc etc, likewise peter hammill, robert fripp etc etc. You get the impression that all of the big uk progressive acts, if asked, would be like "not us! that was all those other guys!" so, you know, (shrugs) I mean Faust were quite happy to do gigs w/henry cow, or play backing tracks for slapp happy, and eno was quite happy to record albums w/robert fripp, and if you want a defining image of a prog musician, fripp, sitting on his little stool in the dark, playing his black les paul with this look of FROWNING STUDIOUSNESS on his face, a mellotron standing beside him would come third, behind rick wakeman with his daft-looking silver cape, or keith emerson, sticking the h!tler youth daggers he bought from lemmy into his beaten up hammond organ. Or something. Whatever anyway.

I must admit that I'm at a bit of a loss wrt this. In the last year, I've read write ups w/Howard Devoto, Keith Levene and Phil Oakey all admitting some prog influence, Phil O going as far as to say that the Human League were a product of the 70's progressive movement (search the guardian website for phil oakey, the int. might still be online) but they're all old & established acts, and they probably don't really give much of a shit about how they appear, b/c edgy mags prob wouldn't give them the time of day or something. I can't think of a modern act who have admitted prog music influlences, tho' obv it is there. Didn't Graham Coxon rave about van der graaf generator somewhere recently? One of Stereolab has a side-project who are openly prog-influernced? Jonny Greenwood is a big prog fan supposedly (I think?) I dunno. I did see pics of radiohead's gig in this week's nme, and FUCK did the look like emerson lake & palmer...

Kate's first post on this thread is super-interesting. Who are these bands she refers to? I want to hear them! I want to play gigs w/them!! Fuck!! It is certainly true that punk = the new establishment as well, i mean just about any prog band now is either self-releasing, or on a tiny label. Like the only new prog band I can think of who are on a major is porcupine tree, and even they strenuously deny being "prog" in interviews....

tell me more, anyway.

Well that's kind of what i thought, but i didn't want to put it like that b/c dadaismus posts a lot of interesting stuff (IMO) and i didn't want to piss him/her off (I think i did on another thread tho' eheh, sorry dada.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/fridayreview/story/0,12102,929057,00.html

Relevant quote:

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"What was interesting to me about the Kraftwerk and Donna Summer records was the fact that they could not have been made a few years earlier. But to be honest, we were a 70s group; we came out of progressive," says Oakey in answer to the suggestion that the band were an early-morning call for the new decade.

"We were looking around for something that would suit us, and we really liked Genesis, although not as much as we liked Van der Graaf Generator."

Led by Peter Hammill, Van der Graaf Generator were one of the most intellectual progressive bands, throwing hooks and melodies out of the window in favour of lengthy keyboard solos and metaphysical agonising.

"They had an extrovert saxophonist who played two saxes at the same time, and the LPs were massive journeys into your brain. Curved Air was another good band from that era, and we really liked Yes, partly because they started out being a bit glam. Most of the progressive bands, although they had long hair, were absolutely determined to be macho."

Oakey grew up with a Sheffield art-school crowd who related entirely to the sexual ambiguity of glam rock, having found themselves alienated by the laddish side of prog epitomised by Emerson, Lake and Palmer and Savoy Brown.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

(weren't savoy brown some kind of blues thing?)

Phil O is my music GOD, basically, moreso after I read that, and even moreso after I picked up "secrets" which is FUCKING FANTASTIC in fopp rekkids in glasgow's bargain bin.

Only a slight variation on the prog fan who labels everything he/she likes "prog".

i have been using "prog" to summarise a lot of chartpop i currently like (eg that appleton single round new year) so i wd probbly upset PROGMAN with my "open-endedness"

(cf also p!nk = punk obv)

You can't give "Prog" an inflexible def. because it's more like a syndrome (i.e., a cluster of 'symptoms' or possible individual characteristics from which to sample), so everything is defined along a continuum of how well the artist in question matches up with the list of possible identifying traits (e.g., plays mellotron, odd time signatures, protracted track lengths of fragmented, episodic, or psychedelic-based nature, whatever).

It's largely the same problem in my professional field of reliably diagnosing mental disorders, actually. I believe (though I'd have to look it up) that you can have someone diagnosed with Schizophrenia who does not have delusions or hallucinations, but still meets criteria because they endorse a number of other requisite symptoms...this is even though delusions and hallucinations are among the most prominent symptoms, and the ones with which most people would 'rely' on in defining the illness.

Yes well there's a very good reason for that - they're all old. Their formative musical years coincided with the heyday of Prog Rock (1969-76) as did Stephen Stapleton of Nurse With Wound and the geezer out of Merzbow. It's hardly surprising that musicians of 45-55 years old have SOME prog influences. However, I still find it hard to believe that Slowdive, to name one example, ever listened to prog rock. How sad and spotty and friendless must you have been in as a 17 year old in 1986 to be listening to Prog Rock?!??! A friend of mine is writing a book on Prog Rock - he's in his mid-40s too - and he told me that he will be giving most coverage to the "Big Three": Yes, Genesis and ELP. Those three are really what Prog Rock is all about - not Henry Cow, certainly not Slapp Happy (they aren't even remotely proggy) etc etc etc.

re: Norm's love for HL's 'Secrets' just let me add - YES YES YES YES!! As I've bleated on ILM ever since the day it came out - this is a fantastic recd. As good as 'Dare' and 'Travelogue' easily. Possibly better. Cozen - get it, get it, get it!!

Also Norm - have you got the HL/The Future - Golden Hour of The Future? I think you'd like it.

The "big three" are just that: the most popular prog bands. That a guy writing a book about the music is spending considerable time on them is about as surprising as the Rolling Stone record guide entry for Elvis being longer that the one for Magma. For as we know, Elvis, The Beatles and the Stones - that's what rock is all about.

Well, in many ways, yes indeed.

There is a brand of prog called "avant-prog", usual suspects from the 70s being Henry Cow and all of RIO bands, Magma, and sometimes even bands like Can and Faust. New bands like Ruins and Thinking Plague are often called "avant-prog" too. The "big 3" are usually filed under "symphonic", the most renown style of progressive rock (and a kind I can barely listen to). Maybe you'd hate a-p less.

Except on the Quiet Sun record, or on Fripp's Exposure, or co-writing that song on Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think the "open-endedness" is more applicable to the musicians in those old bands than you give them credit for. Rather than merely 1-dimensional, chop-happy androids -- or conversely, hip, clean new music pioneers -- I suspect (and have noticed) a pretty sizable incestuous mixture.

Rhetorical Questions:

1) Does technique and complexity inherently make something lesser?
2) How does one know whether technique and complexity are "for its own sake" or not (e.g., to my ears, that would not at all apply to Genesis' music, though it would certainly apply to Henry Cow's music--whereas for someone else the opposite may be true)? It seems to me that the "for its own sake" part is a subjective imposition. Further question: even if it *were* for its own sake...would *that* make it inherently lesser?
3) Are 'technique' and 'complexity' merely defined by how fast one can/not play notes? Pink Floyd and Eno, to me, had a lot of technique and complexity, but this was more expressed in the construction of their music.

As an aside, I think it's an oversimplification to say Can (at least) were devoid of technique. Jaki Liebezeit's drumwork to me often seems if anything MORE technically savvy than, say, Alan White's contemporaneous drumwork in Yes (e.g., could White handle the sprightly polyrhythms of "Spray" off Future Days with the same degree of ease? I'm not entirely sure...).

there were two smiths fans in the entire region

No, and vice versa. But I would say that in the heyday of prog rock, music with less "technique and complexity" (using the Geir Hongro/ Western Classical definition of both) was routinely sneered at. David Katz, in his Lee Perry biography, points out that Brian Eno was laughed at by a music journalist for playing Perry's "Bucky Skank" - which of course is better (and more "complex") than the entirety of Yes and ELP's back catalogues combined.

2) How does one know whether technique and complexity are "for its own sake" or not...

You're right, this is subjective.

3) Are 'technique' and 'complexity' merely defined by how fast one can/not play notes?

Well yes they are, in the Geir Hongro/ classic Prog Rock universe - which is what I'm referring to, not any "avant-prog" movement dreamt up 20 years after fact.

As an example of what I mean, do you also not care for Mahavishnu Orchestra, Magma, and Henry Cow, other bands that are pretty ostentatious in their displays of virtuosity? How about Miles' fusion albums (e.g., Filles de Kilimanjaro)? If you DO like these, what would set their virtuosity apart?

A hard and fast definition isn't necessary just a recognition of the obvious differences between classic 70s prog rock, which is mostly (but not all) rubbish, and the kind of experimental 70s rock that most of us here probably like. But, it is fairly subjective I suppose. Plus if you want a hard and fast definition of Prog Rock, ask a Prog Rock fan they usually have 10 or 12 hard and fast definitions handy.

As an example of what I mean, do you also not care for Mahavishnu Orchestra, Magma, and Henry Cow, other bands that are pretty ostentatious in their displays of virtuosity? How about Miles' fusion albums (e.g., Filles de Kilimanjaro)? If you DO like these, what would set their virtuosity apart?

No, I don't care much too much for Mahavishnu Orchestra, Magma, and Henry Cow - tho I actually have enjoyed the music of all three on occasion. It's very interesting that you bring up Miles Davis, because simultaneously to rock musicians disappearing up their own rectums, "jazz" musicians were doing much the same thing, only they called it "jazz rock" and not "prog rock". I don't actually think that the various offshoots from Miles' 68-70 period bands, be it Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever or Weather Report advanced one millimetre on what Miles did in that period. And, yes, I think those bands had great moments but they too quickly ossified into ostentatious displays of technique and virtuosity and an fetishization of complexity. Errrrrrrrr, I haven't got the time to debate all this right now but it is an interesting area.

1/lack of flashy playing is nothing to do with why can, amon duul, neu etc were great. That's just totally irrelevant.

2/ writing a prog rock book, focussing mainly on yes, elp & genesis = pointless. You can already buy books on those bands. Dada's friend shd write abt something that there isn't already a book about.

3/ what could possibly be sadder that someone who listens to uncool music 15 yrs after it was cool? Well, sneering at someone listening to uncool music is what comes to mind for some reason....

4/ oddyssey & oracle great, yes, argent = rubbish, yes, this fact relevant in any way whatsoever, no. I mean have you ever listened to later amon duul? Which proves what? Good musicians sometimes suck later on, big news, what?

5/ congratulations you haven't mentioned public school or class yet.

6/ i have never, in years of listening to kraut rock, selling it at the rekkid shop, reading interviews w/musicians whenever i could, read an interview with ONE krautrock musician defining themselves in opposition to progressive music. Not once. Searching my memory, i do remember one of can going on aby jaki l's playing, saying it was a response to flashy playing of german jazz drummers at the time. that';s it. that's all i can think of

7/ if any of the "important musicians" from the seventies had purely defined themselves against unnneccesary flashy playing, if that had been their primary motivation, then i doubt any one of them would have made a single record worth listening to. I mean, what a pissy, sad little thing to use as musical motivation. "before and after science" or "future days" is a statement in opposition to over complex playing? please.

8/ for god's sake stop going on about gier. gier's worldview represents nothing but gier. he is a weirdo person with a unique viewpoint.

9/ i used to have this ancient copy ov "Oz" which was a rubbish hippy fuck mag. They reviewed roxy music's first album, and slated it, from the point of view that it was too flashy and showy, not what rock and roll should be about yadda yadda. My memory says it was charles shaar murray writing that, though that bit could be wrong. In prog's heyday, plenty of people routinely dissed it for exactly the same reasons.

10/ actually, nine is enough i think.

10/ in the sense that it's consumed largely by male anal retentives, this is true

which differs from kraut rock obsessives how, exactly?

Really, though, arguing over what is and is not prog is
so played out. "Progressive rock" started out as a
descriptor. Only in long retrospect was the
genre "prog" defined.

Best resource and forum on the web for prog and/or progressive rock is http://www.progressiveears.com ...the 'what is prog' discussion has come up so many times it tends to be taken none to seriously any more.

I don't know if it's nice to no longer be a fucking pariah or that prog becoming fashionable is a disaster (only because it'll now be re-infested with wankers after a nice 20 year hiatus).

whilst here NO Hawkwind are NOT prog, save mabey a couple of Calvert's moments... they're were a droney bluesy space rock thing that never strayed from 4/4
Prog's just doing things that aren't the same boring verse chorus blah blah almost identical to the last thing you heard song structures... it's just rythmic freedom really. Shoulnt even have a name really. Prog with a big Capital P meant the Eighties' UK tape trading/fanzine underground ie Dagaband, Citizien Cain, IQ, Twelfth Night etc for a bit. Right now the most progressive bands on the planet are Upsilon Acrux, Fantomas, Cardiacs and Eftus Spectun.

shit, its 4am

On the contrary it has plenty to do with why Can and Neu are great. (IMO Amon Duul II were a 2nd division Krautrock band at best)

2/ writing a prog rock book, focussing mainly on yes, elp & genesis = pointless. You can already buy books on those bands. Dada's friend shd write abt something that there isn't already a book about.

There have been many books written about Prog Rock, sure but actually most of them tend towards the dry and academic. My friend wants to write a book from the point of view of someone who actually grew up in the early seventies and loved Prog Rock, someone who hitchhiked miles to see a Genesis concert when they were 14, that kind of thing. And, it is undeniable, that Yes, Genesis and ELP were the most popular Prog Rock bands of the 70s. I doubt Henry Cow will figure too much.

3/ what could possibly be sadder that someone who listens to uncool music 15 yrs after it was cool? Well, sneering at someone listening to uncool music is what comes to mind for some reason....

Who's sneering?

4/ oddyssey & oracle great, yes, argent = rubbish, yes, this fact relevant in any way whatsoever, no. I mean have you ever listened to later amon duul? Which proves what? Good musicians sometimes suck later on, big news, what?

This is absolutely relevant because late psychedelia like "Odessey and Oracle" led directly to English Prog Rock and a record like "Odessey and Oracle" has many things in common with a lot of prog - but it is not bombastic, self-regarding or needlessly complex.

5/ congratulations you haven't mentioned public school or class yet.

Jon Anderson was a milkman from Accrington!

6/ i have never, in years of listening to kraut rock, selling it at the rekkid shop, reading interviews w/musicians whenever i could, read an interview with ONE krautrock musician defining themselves in opposition to progressive music. Not once. Searching my memory, i do remember one of can going on aby jaki l's playing, saying it was a response to flashy playing of german jazz drummers at the time. that';s it. that's all i can think of

I'm sorry but you really haven't read interviews with Krautrock musicians then! And this refers directly back to Point No.1. Whether it's Irmin Schmidt saying Keith Emerson played like he was taking part in a Olympic Games event or Michael Rother saying that he made a conscious decision to play as simply as possible or Jaki Liebezeit saying HE made a conscious decision to play as monotonously as possible or Kraftwerk saying they were far more influenced by the Stooges than by Soft Machine or Pink Floyd who were not original in any case or Holger Czukay saying he loved the Velvet Underground because they "played their instruments like pigs" etc etc etc.

7/ if any of the "important musicians" from the seventies had purely defined themselves against unnneccesary flashy playing, if that had been their primary motivation, then i doubt any one of them would have made a single record worth listening to. I mean, what a pissy, sad little thing to use as musical motivation. "before and after science" or "future days" is a statement in opposition to over complex playing? please.

Read above - playing as simply as possible was EXACTLY what Can and Neu set out to do. When Malcolm Mooney sang on "Outside My Door" - "Any colour is bad" that was very much a musical statement of intent. (Of course "Future Days" contains the only recorded evidence of Can as a Prog Rock band: the last ten minutes of "Bel Air" (the preceding ten minutes is well dodgy too) which is the most worthless ten minutes of Can's career.)

8/ for god's sake stop going on about gier. gier's worldview represents nothing but gier. he is a weirdo person with a unique viewpoint.

Geir's worldview is exactly the worldview that prevailed in mid 70s heyday of Prog Rock - he's just living in a time warp that's all.

9/ i used to have this ancient copy ov "Oz" which was a rubbish hippy fuck mag. They reviewed roxy music's first album, and slated it, from the point of view that it was too flashy and showy, not what rock and roll should be about yadda yadda. My memory says it was charles shaar murray writing that, though that bit could be wrong. In prog's heyday, plenty of people routinely dissed it for exactly the same reasons.

Well Charles Shaar Murray was not a fan of Prog Rock - in fact, not that many journalists were.

10/ actually, nine is enough i think.

Agreed!

making aesthetic judgments based on what musicians say in interviews = a sure road to rubbish cultural history (yes of course they distanced themselves => the journalists they were talking to were mainly active prog-haters)

pashmina's point stands: that the actual story of what wz going on is as lot more interesting and complicated than dadaismus's careful reverse-engineering (purpose of which = ensuring his opinions conform to 80s mainstream niche-marketing cliches)

Psyche was just one thing that impacted early prog, see also jazz, rock'n'roll and modern classical music. "Bombastic, self-regarding or needlessly complex" - you need qualify these things.

Whether it's Irmin Schmidt saying Keith Emerson played like he was taking part in a Olympic Games event or Michael Rother saying that he made a conscious decision to play as simply as possible or Jaki Liebezeit saying HE made a conscious decision to play as monotonously as possible or Kraftwerk saying they were far more influenced by the Stooges than by Soft Machine or Pink Floyd who were not original in any case or Holger Czukay saying he loved the Velvet Underground because they "played their instruments like pigs" etc etc etc.

"To play as simply as possible..." I'm not sure what that really means, but I can tell you that I don't know any musicians who are trying to strain while they play. In any case, as in Jaki's metronome funk or Kraftwerk's robotic pulse, musical choices (ie, those made in service of the music) are hardly moral choices, merely deciding on a way to produce the sounds you want to hear. I'm not sure how Leibezeit's wanting to play the way he does makes him better or worse than any other musician doing the same thing. Clearly, you enjoy one over the other. And you forgot to mention Czukay knicking a thing or two from Stockhausen, a guy not exactly known for his restraint.

playing as simply as possible was EXACTLY what Can and Neu set out to do.

The way I see it, Can and Neu did much more than merely thumbing their noses to a small sect of fringe English musicians. Until this thread, I never considered that they would have given prog much thought, but who knows. I will ask Czukay, and when he replies, I'll post it.

despite having 'struggled' with some of dada's thought processes in the past I don't think that's true.

yes of course they distanced themselves => the journalists they were talking to were mainly active prog-haters
That's not the point, the point is it was the musicians who were the active prog haters.

Psyche was just one thing that impacted early prog
The reason I mentioned "Odessey and Oracle" is because the musical prime movers both ended up in a prog rock band who sucked (as did many musicians from the psychedelic era).

geir's worldview did not really prevail in the mid-70s heyday of Prog Rock
Oh really? Do some research and then come back and make that statement. Geir is A PROG ROCK FAN, that explains his worldview.

I'm not sure how Leibezeit's wanting to play the way he does makes him better or worse than any other musician doing the same thing
Well it's an aesthetic choice - I prefer the way Jaki Liebezeit plays to some clown doing three bars of 7/8, one bar of 13/8 and five bars of 7/4 and expecting to be applauded for his musical "daring".

The way I see it, Can and Neu did much more than merely thumbing their noses to a small sect of fringe English musicians
Did I ever say that was "merely" what they were doing?

Who ever set out to make music that is "needlessly complex"? This argument is kind of silly. Who decides how much complexity is needed? And what about music that is needlessly simple?
Who ever set out to make music that is needlessly complex? Have you ever heard any Prog Rock? As for music that is needlessly simple - sounds a great idea to me!

Anyway, I'm such a hypocrite - I just bought Peter Hammill's "Silent Corner and the Empty Stage" (well, it was only £1.50). "A Louse Is Not a Home" is about prog rock as prog rock gets.

to...

and expecting to be applauded for his musical "daring"

Leibezeit played odd meters all the time in Can, but you let him off the hook pretty easily. Furthermore, Klaus Dinger couldn't wait to start playing straight ahead prog with La Dusseldorf immediately after Neu. I just don't see the segregation you're talking about.

You really think La Dusseldorf are "straight ahead prog"? I don't see that myself - they are silly and a bit pompous at times but Dinger made the very wise choice early on in his career to only ever use 4/4 and to never use more than 3 or 4 chords and, preferably, to use one for as long as he could get away with it!

Off the top of my head, I can't remember any Meters songs not in 3 or 4.

On the one hand, you seem to be admitting in some posts above that it IS indeed all relative and not that simple, but on the other hand, you seem to adhere to the notion that, for example, if a rock musician uses shifting time signatures rather than 'groove'-oriented rhythms, that it is an indication of self-congratulatory behavior on the part of the musician (must there always be a non-musical motivation behind such a choice?), and that pared-down music always trumps such 'displays' on principle, so to speak. I would say the latter way of thinking does not deviate from Geir's way of thinking all that much.

No

It sounds like fucking John Lydon

Klaus Dinger sounds like John Lydon? No surprise there then.

What makes that such an automatic 'wise choice', though... onwards

I never said that "simple" music was "inherently" better than complex music - there is good and bad simple music and there is good and bad complex music. Just so happens that most prog is complex but not very good.

Also why is Prog always invoked when Post Punk is mentioned? I'm not denying that some Post Punk music and musicians was/were formed by "Prog" but the majority of owe more to Eno/ Krautrock/ Reggae & Dub/ Funk. In fact I'd stick my neck out right here and say that, in Britain in any case, Reggae was probably THE most influential musical genre of the years 1978-81.

I am listening to 'the best prog rock album in the world ever' - i like how the font makes it look like 'drug rock'. It is quickly heading for the bargain bins in N'Castle.

Porcupine Tree - space rock or prog ?

and tells the kids to check these albums:

King Crimson - Red
Yes - Fragile
Jethro Tull - Aqualung
Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
Rush - 2112

I 'till recently had old copies of kerrang w/bands like twelfth night and iq on the cover.

Will they review self-released prog rock CDs if I send a copy of mine if people send them in I wonder?

http://www.noblepr.co.uk/Press_Releases/gut/prog_rock.htm

CD1

1. Genesis- Carpet Crawlers
2. Jethro Tull – Sweet Dream
3. Van Der Graaf Generator – Killer
4. Focus – Syliva
5. Curved Air – Backstreet Luv
6. Steve Hackett – Firth Of Fifth
7. Manfred Mann – Solar Fire
8. Greenslade – Bedtime Manners Are Extra
9. Procol Harum – A Salty Dog
10. Rare Bird – Sympathy
11. Renaissance – Northern Lights
12. Family – Burlesque
13. Colosseum – Those About To Die
14. Marillion – Forgotten Sons

CD2

1. Yes – Yours Is No Disgrace
2. Emerson, Lake & Palmer – Lucky Man
3. The Nice – America
4. Barclay James Harvest – Child Of The Universe
5. Rush – The Spirit Of Radio
6. Blue Őyster Cult – (Don’t Fear) The Reaper
7. Traffic – Hole In My Shoe
8. Spirit – Fresh Garbage
9. Argent – Hold Your Head Up
10. Atomic Rooster – Tomorrow Night
11. IQ – Erosion
12. Twelfth Night – Love Song
13. Caravan – For Richard

What's the verdict Norman?

Presented by Classic Rock magazine, the album is released on June 12th 2006, making it the perfect Father’s Day gift and a dream-come-true for any progressive rock completist.

Which IQ album is "erosion" off? I don't recognise the title.

but what is the oldest track?

Choke on that for a double-CD progressive comp, fuckers.

Where "completist" means the kind of person who buys two copies of every album, one to listen to and one to shelve without even opening the shrink wrap.