Anybody like The Dead?

xoxo

I really can't be bothered by them either way. I would agree that the Stereophonics are probably the most hated.

If you have never heard them, rejoice and be glad. For what makes them so terribly dire is not even the fact of their badness, but of their sheer overwhelming BLAND INOFFENSIVENESS, yes, they are so fucking BLAND that even taking massive amounts of drugs (or just pretending to) cannot even render them interesting. Take enough acid, and even listening to STATIC or VACCUUME CLEANER NOISE can become interesting.

Not so the Grateful Dead. They become a SHEER PIT OF TURGID SLUGGISH BLANDNESS THAT NOTHING CAN ESCAPE.

AAARRRRRGGGGGGHGHGHHGHGGHHGGHGHH!!!

::Kate's head explodes::

Q: "What do Greatful Dead fans say when they run out of drugs?"

A: "God this band are shit".

The Dead's biggest failing - the fact that none of them are even halfway decent singers. And their rock'n'roll covers really suck. Quite like 'Grayfolded', tho.

Anyway.

A couple of months ago, I was asked to review a GD live album for bol.com, and thought I'd actually listen to it. And you know what: it actually wasn't too bad. Not necessarily something I'd shoulder aside my Lollies CD to shove on the turntable, or even salvage from my bi-weekly bag of goodies for the nice man in the s-h store round the corner, but certainly possessing a certain passion and drive, lacking in...

Look. On a sliding scale of records I've had to listen to in the past six months, the GD are not as bad as the following...

Genesis

Any blues guitarist who features Chrissie Hynde on guest vocals

Lloyd Cole (sorry Pinefox)

Radiohead

Richard Astley or Ashbury or whatever the damn fool's name is

Barclay James Harvest

Bachman Turner Overdrive

Ben Christophers

Beachwood Sparks (what is it about the letter B?)

Muse

Stereolab's most recent compilation

So, I dunno. I'm not suggesting you rush out and buy the 5,679 GD albums that are out there: one for every bloody guitar solo. Just that there are far heinous crimes against the Goddess.

Like Blur, like Paul Weller (one half of his career is great, one half is crap), like Radiohead (except they haven't made even a listenable record yet), every other album made by Stereolab is a right stinker.

They're nowhere near as hated on here as, say, David Gray. Otis Wheeler likes them too.

I find it interesting and kind of funny that The Wire (which I know some people here read) takes them so seriously. Apparently they think there is something in those long jams that makes The Dead more avant- garde than, say, The Allman Brothers. I can't really comment except to say that I like both bands, Allman Bros. only while Duane was still alive.

How could anybody hate something as harmless as a hippie? Isn't life too short to get upset over two longhairs kicking a bean bag around? Since the rise of the East Bay scene I can't tell the hippies from the punks, anyway.

My initial enjoyment of The Dead has much to do with having a good time with friends while the music played in the background (I roomed w/ some hippies for a while in school.) Although I do think Jerry Garcia is one of the better guitar soloists in rock, if you're into that short of thing. I always loved his guitar tone and melodic, middle-register style. He's one of a handful of people that I'd ever want to hear play a guitar solo (others being Lou Reed, Dean Wareham, Isaac Brock.)

But they were the worst singers, like, ever. I can't argue this.

Sure the Dead are interesting from a DIY standpoint, but that has little to do w/ the music. What I find it fascinating that such a massive amount of analysis has been generated for one band. People with thousands of tapes who differentiate between June 72 shows and September 72 shows. I love it! I don't want to join them, but I find this kind of devotion interesting to say the least. It's one side of the breadth vs. depth argument taken to its logical conclusion.

In the end I think the appeal of The Dead has to do with something Tom mentioned in a post long ago. Everybody has music styles, bands, etc. that they love because they are familiar and comforting. The Dead is the ultimate band as old shoe.

I think I'd rather listen to Richard Marx than the Grateful Dead.

The Dead = complete, utterly useless hippie-wank. And sorry, Jerry Garcia was a crap guitarist. No other band so perfectly embodies everything I hate about certain music groups, certain music fans, and certain folks in a certain demographic (cough Baby Boomers!).

Can't beat Kate's description, though.

I regard the Dead with a vast indifference; Nicole's description captures my own experience with them. However, I do have a favorite Dead moment thanks to the kind souls at MST3K, as they once did a parody sketch on the band. After a brief introduction, Crow as Captain Trips, with beard and glasses intact, begins playing an extremely dumbass, squelchy solo. It ends an hour later.

To beat one of my favored dead horses, or something like that, friend ML once compared the Walkabouts, who he briefly managed, to the Dead in terms of what they were trying to do re: synthesis of musics and the like. Interesting comparison, though I'm not sure it entirely holds up.

In response to Dan's comment, I'd say knocking the Dead is more akin to kicking a very ugly, very unwashed, very overweight dog that happens to be nice.

xoxo

Any mst3k with Joe Don Baker is a guaranteed classic, though.

Props to you, mr true, for "the day joe strummer strapped on an electric guitar, punk rock died". All time great quote from the inky weeklies, that. xoxo

I'm so with you on the Freaks and Geeks episode. I don't know if it was just context, or what, but I had a weird moment there: "Wait, this is the Dead? This is sort of nice."

But judging from every one of my other exposures to them, that's completely anomalous. And my girlfriend, who unfortunately used to hang out with hippies, assures me that a broad sampling of their canon reveals 99% wank, 1% surprisingly not-God-awful. The 1% can fool you, just 'cause it so unexpectedly doesn't suck.

A: "None... they just wait for it to burn out and then follow it around the country." Honestly, at least you can say they did it their way... and it was counterculture. And while I risk ceremonial beheading should any of my punker-than-thou coworkers read this, I like some tunes, especially the country stuff. But I never saw them live... never even tried. I remember reading some interview where one of them was almost insulting their moronic fans for having such a narrow musical focus, and I thought that was pretty cool.

Once they turned country-rock, they got much less interesting, though I like a couple of the songs from Workingman's Dead. I remember enjoying Terrapin Station when I was a little kid.

Of course, that's me: having briefly tried to be one, I feel a greater affinity towards hippies than (say) ravers. And I like (pre-1993) Phish, too.

My proof was simply that Spiritualized are like a (slightly) more listenable Genesis, and that Spiritualized are worse than the Grateful Dead. Then do the maths.

Ergo sum nunc detritus adore Dexys, as they used to say round the playground.

As far as Phish - all you need to know is _A Picture of Nectar_. "Chalk Dust Torture", to be exact. Anything else would be uncivilized.

Hey, I realize its not "hip" to like the Dead, not even in America, where most kids aren't listening to music even remotely like what they made. I'm sure it makes everyone feel better to claim their superiority to "hippies" or whomever you imagine listens to the Dead. Growing up, to look at me, I would have been considered a punk. As an adult, I've been a DJ at a bar playing mostly hard rock, indie, punk and glam stuff. But I have room in my head and my record collection for the Grateful Dead. Even saw them a few times. I am not a major fan, but as a music lover I think it's pretty immature to dismiss out of hand a band like this. How old is the average FT poster anyway, and how concerned is he/she with what everyone thinks about their taste in music? Or how bound to their (perhaps groundless) predjudices are they?

If you want to get a handle on their sound, and why people (not me) collect dozens of bootlegs, imagine them as a jazz band, their constantly changing solos and arrangements similar to the way jazz musicians jam. Hell yeah they were experimental, especially in the early days.

They weren't the greatest singers, but they did well with what they had, and since when is having a "good voice" a prerequisite for a rock singer anyway?

They were nothing like Genesis, by the way, except for the fact that they both had long songs.

I'm not saying you have to like everything, nor do you have to like the Dead. But to lump them into a "must dismiss" category with Richard Marx, etc., is just ignorant. And remember, I'm not even a big fan, I just am surprised to see musicians like this get slammed, while many posters go out of their way to defend Brittany Spears, and other disposable pop products.

Plus, I can't be bothered with people who think they're being trenchant or witty by bringing up the same old tired-ass Dead-disses. Ooh, their fans are lazy and hairy. :::yawnnnn:::

That's one button successfully pushed...

It's possible that I might more thoroughly explore this apparently legendary American Beauty era and all, but to be honest I'm not really inspired or immediately interested in looking further, not at this point. The beauty of allegedly disposable pop, as complained about above, is how addictive it is (and long-lasting it eventually turns out to be) when it's at its best -- and therefore I have little problem in enjoying/caring about it, and subsequently little to no angst over what joys I might or might not be missing by not immediately listening to "St. Stephen." There's plenty of music out there to love and discover, new and old -- I'll get around to what I can in life with time.

The thing they weren't doing that I guess I was looking for was a bit tighter improvisation. Also I was more down on the country-folk sound - I find it more pleasing now, so I suppose I should go back and listen to those CDs again.

*PERSON WHO SAW THE SAME FREAKS & GEEKS AS ME AND WHOSE NAME I CANNOT REMEMBER AS I DO NOT WANT TO RELOAD THE ENTIRE PAGE*: you're right. all the music on the show sounded good, even it was like, the stupidest music normally. and to tie this into the other interesting thing about this thread, remember when joel hodgson was the disco dj? 'hey, have you heard the stones' 'miss you'? guess what, it's DISCO!'. i really miss not having cable now, even though i've seen every episode. any show with joel on it is the greatest show ever.

Josh is right--a lot of people on this board would probably be pleasantly surprised if they heard, say, "Live/Dead", "Europe 72", or one of their many offial bootlegs.

I'm not a big Grateful Dead fan, ok! Hmmm, maybe I'll play some tonight....

re: dvd player, i was recently told by someone else that i MUST get one because of the purportedly incredible simpsons dvd that will be coming out this fall. since i'm not paying for cable, i just might. a feature-packed simpsons dvd, ohhh man. isn't it just the greatest thing in the world that i've hijacked a grateful dead thread to talk about like, three of the best tv shows ever? i have to find a way to work pete & pete into here. wait, just did.

But the country rock records mentioned, Beauty and Workingman's they sound good. Pigpen did a fun Howlin' Wolf impression, he never really lost it.

Europe 72 was my introduction, and I think it remains a good one. Still coming off the country rock days, but electrified & stretching out a bit. Also some of their best songs. 72-78 era is my favorite in terms of shows & setlists.

Pigpen was definitely their strongest singer. Weir probably next. Lesh is good for the mellow stuff, and anyone who says they love stuff like The Flying Burrito Brothers but not "Pride of Cucumonga" is a hypocrite.

There's also their more adventurous solo stuff, particularly Mickey Hart's world music stuff (The Diga Rhythm Band album is like an all- rhythmic Shakti) or Ned Lagin's Seastones (with Lesh and Garcia).

But why is it THEM that got foisted into this "principled" zone — from which their fans cannot apparently rescue them, in particular or in general, or even by appeal to shared humanity!?

So, bearing in mind that a. I really *do* think I've never heard anything by them, and b. I would LIKE to like them because so many seem to have such cliched reasons for disliking them (but fear if I tried em out I would just feel, hmmm, meh...: ie not hate but not excitement either), can I put up the suggestion that it's BECAUSE THEIR RANGE is wide-ish (drone rock to country, improv to folk), but i. that they are NOT PEERLESS in ANY of the zones they touch on, and that ii. they have been around forever, in a territory where Moving On is in the end a virtue, that they spark such vague but unmovable dislike?

Funny, I thought he was talking about me.

Yes, I *LOVE* dronerock. Yes, I *LOATHE* the Dead. You do not understand how many people have tried to get me into them with the "Hey, it's just like dronerock!" thing. ::then proceed to play me half an hour of the chord E played with hippie dippie noodling crap over the top::

If they have the slightest dronerock element to them, it's everything I despise and wish to cast out of dronerock. Noodling solos. Mile high amp stacks. Poor vocals. "hey, man, let's throw in some African elements and some Southern boogie". Maybe it's not a million miles from Can, but it might as well be.

And for the record, Live At the Royal Albert Hall is a poor Spiritualized album to bring up for comparison. Probably because it's just a poor Spiritualized album to start with.

For what it's worth Kate, dronerock has much the same effect on me - I'd bracket later Spaceman 3 along with The Grateful Dead as 'nothing much happens' music.

(By the way, I saw the 'Rock Shrine' program on BBC choice on Monday on gerry Garcia and they had the fans and the DEVOTION to the Dead was something really... well, it was really touching).

The music is from a different time- they did try to incorporate elements from American Music and I like that because not many do that today. They also had the courage to drop their more psychedelic stuff for a while and explored country rock whereas most artists stick with one thing (and I don't criticise them for it) whereas the Dead tried something different. They pushed themselves and I give 'em credit for that.

And so what if their Guitar solos were long (that's a punk thing of course, what's the crime in a good 15-minute, distortion free solo- I can listen to this and follow it up with Psycocandy and Loveless- what's the problem?)

Leave the Dead alone- get another target from today like radiohead, or many of the awful indie bands that are around today.

Punk r0x0r year zero 't00d, there, Jerry? Pffff...I would've expected better from U :) Besides, I don't own any grateful dead albums. I just have the "Glastonbury Fayre" triple, which I bought because it contains unreleased hawkwind and pink fairies trax0rs. Genesis were fckng great. But not as good as King Crimson or Van Der Graaf Generator, right jerry? :-P

My proof was simply that Spiritualized are like a (slightly) more listenable Genesis, and that Spiritualized are worse than the Grateful Dead. Then do the maths. Eh, proof? Spiritualised don't sound like *any* Genesis *I've* ever heard. They sound to me like Hawkwind, having just been shot w/tranquiliser darts. Waaay too sleepy for my tastes. As far as music quality goes, based on what I've heard, Grateful Dead = later Pink Floyd....bearable, but you'd rather listen to something else. Almost anything else, actually

Ergo sum nunc detritus adore Dexys, as they used to say round the playground.

Not in my playground. That would have been "d'ye like 4-skins or iron maiden, y'fckn hippy c*nt", or words to that effect.

Ms St.Claire is spot on, as regards noodly solos in dronerock. Basically, if U can play lead better than Dave Brock, you shouldn't be playing lead (IMO, eheh, of course!)

xoxo

I like em on principle — principle being, it's v.extreamly boring to denounce em — but refuse to listen to em in case I am disproved wrong. As far as I know, I have NEVER HEARD ANYTHING BY EM.

Come on, Mark. 'It's extremely boring to denounce 'em' = in absence of other info, I will take the position running contrary to the expected. Aren't I clever? Oh well, time to go back to glueing money to the pavement and hiding in privet hedges.

Of course, it's easy to criticise the 60's, the hippies, etc. So why don't you guys stretch yourselves a bit and criticise stuff being released NOW.

Actually I'm just bitter because you told me to get a grip in the Yuppie Rock thread and feel like calling you on your own frequently brilliant but equally loony pronouncements. I'll get you, my pretty, and your little dog Hanle y too!

And as for the Dead, here's a thought: Ornette playing with them in the 70s lends them improvisatory cred, snowball effect (including Downbeat putting jam bands on the cover), one day Deadheads start getting NEA grants to preserve their culture, eventually jam bands achieve same "protected" status that jazz and classical currently enjoy and kids are forced to learn to noodle in school. Now is preventing *that* a worthy critical exercise?

"Get a grip" not aimed at you personally Dave: I felt someone shd speak up for the amoral swivelhead counc-potato contingent!!

(sp: 'beeotch')

"Don't make fun of Jerry, man. He's my friend."

"Yeah, all my friends charge me $60 to hear 'em dick around on the guitar."

Live Output -- Decent, but can definitely be tiresome. Still vital, since many of their best songs (including _the_ best, Cumberland Blues) sounded way better live.

Studio Output -- They did three great albums: Aoxomoxoa, a psych classic, and the duology of American Beauty and Workingman's Dead. You really need to be exposed to those albums, especially the non-hit album tracks, to have a true appreciation for the Dead. The team of Garcia/Hunter was just *outstanding*

Vocals -- Rough-hewn Americana, no worse than say, the Band, and some of the harmonies were pretty imaginative.

Instrumental Ability -- Garcia is not to everyone's tastes, but I think he was amazing. He didn't wank so much as generate extemporaneous contrapuntal melodies. Phil Lesh was an amazing bassist, his work on the studio version of "Brokedown Palace" never fails to impress.

As for the cultural baggage associated with the Dead, hippies, groupies, drugs and tie-dye -- whatever. I'm too young to have experienced that firsthand, I don't really care about it and it's not in my frame of reference.

Kenny - Bob Weir, who sings (and wrote) OMSN, was the rock 'n roll guy (well, him and one of the drummers) in the band so you probably want to look for other stuff of his. Some notable songs include "Sugar Magnolia" (off American Beauty, and a bit more of a r'nr-folk-country synthesis; one of their great compositions in songform), "Playing in the Band" (an early example of later period "arena big band" Dead), and a couple of covers, including "Not Fade Away" and at least two Chuck Berry songs.

I recommend you pick up Weir's solo album (really a GD record), "Ace", which will get you "One More Saturday Night" and a few others you might like. There's also an excellent live version of the song on the Europe '72 album.

no and no. though i must say that phish's love of FZ (as well as MBV) does irk me a bit.

I dunno if all of Phish likes MBV. Trey goes on about how much he loves Kevin Shields, though.

And besides they had a direct influence on Sonic Youth, who had a direct influence on much of the music ilxers like to talk about, if not devote their lives to. I think this might be reason enough to give the Dead a fair shake. Then again, probably not.

--I just saw all-new HDCD versions (via Rhino) of all their classic 70s releases, if anybody's interested.

That first album is one of the greatest garage rock records ever. A record I never tire of playing.

I still have a problem with a lot of the bad/out-of-tune singing on much of the live stuff, but the good stuff is worth searching for.

Jerry Garcia was a monster guitar player. I have a live version of "Cream Puff War" where he just rages for like 5 minutes straight. The amphetamines were really doing their job.

Cleverly worded, that.

this quote (found WAY up there near the top) is one of the funniest things i've ever read

the original "anthem of the sun" mix was the LP with the purple cover.
the 71/72 remix was the white cover, with "RE" on the runout groove.
the first CD reissue is the original mix.
i _think_ the new remastered+bonux tracks reissue is the original mix.

i think the original mix is supposed to be a little more 'creative' when it comes to panning, mixing, etc., than the remix - the band seemed to think the original was "a drag." if i actually steel my courage to buy the CD remaster, i'll report on any noticeable differences.

If you ask me, the real overrated hippie band is the Jefferson Airplane - they have what, two good songs?

On Freaks and Geeks she met some people who were hippies and they gave her a record that was American Beauty and she was dancing to it and it sounded really cool. They played 'Ripple' and that's a cool song.

I bought the CD and I really liked it and listened to it a lot. I think I probably still like it.

And I bought Workingman's Dead because I thought it would be about the same and it was but I just had the record and I never remember the song order or the song titles or start to remember the words really good when I have to listen to records. Even if I really like it. So, it wasn't anyone's fault but my own.

I like the Grateful Dead a bit, I guess. They're anti-working class and everything but in six hundred years no one will care about that and humanity might even be extinct.

ahh, crap on that. they have plenty of good songs, but they only had one good vocalist, and they barely let her sing.

anyway, for a start: search workingmans dead (best studio album in my opinion - the song "dire wolf" = ultra classic), and american beauty as well. these are the most stripped down dead albums and will get you into their basic vibe.

from then on go onto live stuff really, either individual bootlegs or released stuff, like the europe 72 set, which is really good. (70s stuff is usually gonna have plenty of good stuff on it)

the dead is actually pretty accessible in my opinion, although it took me a while to take to the groove of the live stuff, now i love it. basically forget whatever you've been told bout the dead being "hippie shit" and just listen. all i know is the feel of the music takes me somewhere, wonderful lyrics on the whole too. for me theres nothing like sitting down on a sunny day listenin to the dead. you dont need to have been around at their time to appreciate it. i'm 19 and i'll never see jerry play live which is sad. but i still get to appreciate their music, which is great.

oh yes and freaks and geeks = great tv show - of course it got cancelled, cos the networks dont know shit.

Now, on to the matter at hand. I was young once, and thus, an ignorant asshole. I thought, after I finally learned to appreciate country at age 14 (Burrito Bros by way of Gram by way of Neil) or finally got turned on to jazz at 16 (free jazz all the way - i sorta went backward), that my tastes had somehow reached the apex of maturity. I'd have considered myself an open minded music fan. Yet I scoffed at the very mention of the Dead. My cousin Roger was a rabid Deadhead, and the rest of my family dug Danzing and Ozzy, so he was sorta cast out.

I worked in a record store during college, and at the time, i was pretty much exclusively buying old psych / Siltbreeze / BYG and occasionally some dub. It took two instances of my boss actually tricking me into liking the Dead, but god bless him, he did it, and i've been a fan ever since. In fact, I've listened to nothing but Wake of The Flood and Blues for Allah (my personal favorite) for the past two days, and when i remember, I always tune in to the local broadcast of The Dead Hour of WFUV. I also own seven Dicks Picks collections.

Here's how he got me: One day i walked in and heard this fucking sound - total mind-crushing heaviosity - and I asked Eric (my boss), "What IS THIS???" He smiled and told me it was the new Dead C. "Holy shit," said I, "this is thier best yet!!" I don'tneed to tell you that it was, in fact, a Dead boot called Skull Fuck. I made a tape copy of it and, still scared, didn't investigate further, fearing the connotation of dancing baers and tye-dye. I was, after all, punk till death, right?

The next time this happened, I reported for work to hear this beautiful psych-folk guitar jam, and was, again, lied to. "It's the new Ghost," said Eric. "Really?" said I, intrigued. You know the rest. That day i bought all the Dead records we had in the dollar bin (placed there because they were scratched)

Another memory: on our last night in our old apartment in White Plains, NY, wifey and I decided to drop acid as an official goodbye to our old place. Just for kicks I threw on Workingman's Dead, an album i always liked, but rarely listened to. Well, brother, lemme tell you, that was the first time I actually experienced what other assholes claim they experience when they listen to Spiritualized stoned: songs that I knew for a fact had no flange or phaser on them were flanging and phasing like crazy. There were hard pans, tremelo, and chorus, but only in my head. It was like Workingman's Dead was a 3D movie and I just put on the glasses for the first time. It always seemed fairly benign to me, as far as 'trippy' albums go, and i don't know HOW it worked, but it did. I misheard the lyric for "High Time," thinking that it was "I was having a HARD time living the Good Life" and thought it was the most beautiful lyric ever written.

My affinity for the Dead is infinite and unconditional at this point. I like Alternative TV as much as the next guy, but the Dead are fucking pure bliss, and even Derek Bailey knew that. You haters are missing out, man.

"I'm listening to Wake of the Flood,
I'm listening to Wake of the Flood
And I'm high!!"

- Yo La Tengo, "Drug Test"

Ha, a friend of mine once suckered his Dead-aphobic girlfriend by putting on "American Beauty" and telling her it was a Malkmus side project. I wonder if there's a whole history of people being tricked into losing their preconceptions about the Dead this way.

unfortunate fan base; no disputing that. what can you do.

i wonder whether they are much more known in america than here in the uk? i mean, they are a very well known name here, but you never hear them. are they more inescapable in america?

I think that their music is probably only slightly more omnipresent, but that their fans are probably more inescapable, at least within certain milieu.

i would love a copy of this, anyone know if it's still in print?

I'm not a hippy by the way.

I'm not a hippy either, by the way.

I'm a evil troll-beast from Dimension X!

So while I do like much their stuff (Garcia/Hunter songs at least)I think a lot of it was a missed opportunity with Mr. Lesh noodling off into space. A bassist should serve the song, above all.

"song"? Wrong.

ps if you wanna hear Jerry play with a more r&b based band check out JGB