C/D: Kraftwerk's "The Mix"

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I've heard countless rips on this record, describing it as crummy house mixes or half-baked takes, etc. It all just seems lazy. From the moment I heard it, I always thought The Mix was just fantastic -- "Radioactivity" smokes, "Computer Love" grooves, and, oh, that "Autobahn" with the hilarious keyboard solo and OUTRAGEOUS computer barbershop.

Have a go at it...

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:19 (twenty-two years ago)

it's easily my favorite k-werk album, and the only one i listen to with any sort of frequency. yes, i've heard the "classics", and i still don't get the hate this regularly comes up for.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:21 (twenty-two years ago)

No.

this whole thread is so aesthetically wrong on so many levels...

I must restrain myself...

must restrain...

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, please do.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok, lets do this rockist style...

If Paul and Ringo got together and redid the classic Beatles singles for a greatest hits album and used the production technique of say, um, Our Lady Peace I think it would be pretty clear to most people that this would be a massively shitty thing to listen to.

Why is it when you apply this idea to electronic music a lot of seeming bright people don't see the connection.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

because rockism is fucking ridiculous no matter what you apply it to?

appeals to venerate history and support posterity are so fucking lame in the realm of popular music.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

if something sounds good to me, it's good. the end. the mix sounds good to me. the end. i don't care if it's the mike flowers pops or extreme noise terror or creed rerecording kraftwerk's greatest hits.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:34 (twenty-two years ago)

or k-werk themselves obviously.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

oh get off your high horse, the album is shit.

brass tacks: kraftwerk ran out of creative steam so they put out an album of overly long remixes with crap hi-gloss over-production.

If you don't see this, becuase it is really really obvious, you are fucking up.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

haha okay mike. did you ever think of going into the military or academia?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I am glad you brought up Creed, cuase that record is like The Doors featuring the Creed guy.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:37 (twenty-two years ago)

ian astbury was in creed???

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:37 (twenty-two years ago)

and seriously, no one who is frontin the doors as in the same league as k-werk (or creed) should be bagging on my taste.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)

this is classic. i love the mix of "computer world."

― jaymc (jaymc), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:47 (twenty-two years ago)

haha although i do love how they're calling themselves "the doors of the 21st century" now

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:47 (twenty-two years ago)

It just surprises me because that record is so cringe-worthy. I got The Mix in 1993 at Musicland when I worked there when I was 16. I got it as a notched cassette for like 2 bucks. At the time I thought it was cool because I had not heard any of the earlier material and I was just getting into my bowie/eno/neu/cluster/berlin phase. After a time, probably when I was about 19 I gave the tape away because I wasn't feeling it. I lived in the original records for years and years and then I heard it again a year or two ago.

I mean it was awful. Anything that was great about the group was just gone. You get these overly drawn out mixes that just need to be trimmed down. To compensate for a lack of new tunes they just they a bunch of ear candy onto the old arrangements and it was not as lean or stark or majestic as the older material.

The brilliance of Kraftwerk was the combination of raw sonics and conservatory grade song craft. Those records are tied to a very specific time and place and studio technology. There was a spirit of growth and adventure and progress on those old records. The Mix completely lacks the spirit and feeling that made Kraftwerk so vital and life changing. It was product for product's sake, the progress and adventure had gone, and in its place you just had the motions of creativity. It was like this cultural/business mechanism was set into motion and it just kept grinding along without direction or purpose because they just had to do something with the brand name. To use a religious metaphor, listening to the mix is like taking part in a ceremony, but never actually receiving the sacrament.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:53 (twenty-two years ago)

STRONGO WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION

― trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)

its weird how there are rockists for like every genre on ilm, whining about 'product' and 'soullessness'....god, i shudder to think i mightve once been the resident hiphop rockist!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(you still are)

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

qtips new collab with korn completely lacks the spirit and feeling that made his work so vital and life changing!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I am sure it is his best work to date.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 03:58 (twenty-two years ago)

i dont really see how im a hiphop rockist other than by liking hiphop

― trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 10 August 2003 04:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean forgive me if im mistaking you for somebody else but youre the dude who said sampling drum machines has less 'soul' than using those same drum machines right??

― trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 10 August 2003 04:02 (twenty-two years ago)

if you have the audacity to state that any artist ever hit a point in their career trajectory when they ran out of creative steam and kept releasing product for money, you are a "rockist"

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 04:03 (twenty-two years ago)

um, no.

read the posts, I never brought up soul. I explained objectively why I prefer the feel of certain sequencers over others. Jess is the one who put those words in my mouth, and he still owes me a case of Bass Ale.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 04:06 (twenty-two years ago)

well yeah thats why i said i mightve used to be a rockist!!!! but i havent said anything liek that in years, maybe im lazier now but i generally find im more pleased by ppl 'selling out' than anything

― trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 10 August 2003 04:07 (twenty-two years ago)

haha xpost, i just realized you were being sarcastic about the 'audacity' of rockism, i thought you were serious : (

― trife (simon_tr), Sunday, 10 August 2003 04:08 (twenty-two years ago)

http://kotinetti.suomi.net/jakke/audacity/gallery_oldies/45gig_prettyboy.jpg

This is rockist Audacity!

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 10 August 2003 04:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Marvellous stuff Mike.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Sunday, 10 August 2003 10:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah this beats 'Man-Machine', Strongo

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 10 August 2003 11:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Good for you if it does, though. It just seems like "The Mix" is a little less focussed on what's good about Kraftwerk style disco pop than that, but I'm probably being presumptuous about yr tastes and this is the feeling it/not feeling it "debate" again prob

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 10 August 2003 11:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, this argument points to EXACTLY why I think The Mix is so underappreciated. I will completely grant that Ralf was pretty much out of ideas by this point -- that "new" music was more or less totally beyond him and that this record had every right to be a horrendous gaffe.

But that doesn't change the fact that the same level of kraft (if not kreativity) went into making these cuts, resulting not in some crapppy house music but a record with the same kind of kareful sonic placement found in klassic Kraftwerk. If anything, I think it's a significant step up from the genuinely confused Electric Cafe.

Perhaps more polemically, I'd even argue that the cuts taken from one of their best records, Computer World, are given a rather nice spit 'n polish -- that record's only fault was a slightly crusty production.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 10 August 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

It's the K-werk album I find most enjoyable. Some of the arrangements are actually very nice and outshine the originals. I actually wish it were longer because there's a lot more songs I would have liked to hear redone, especially some of their sparser songs like "Hall of Mirrors".

― Vinnie (vprabhu), Sunday, 10 August 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I like it. The production is slicker than the originals, but to me it sounds like more of a nice polish than a soulless travesty. I never did a close compare and contrast, but I don't think they changed the beats or the essential sounds much at all. Plus it makes all the tracks fit together better. (And in the case of some tracks, like Autobahn, it improves on what was originally a rather wan sound.)

Are the mixes really much longer than the originals? I'm not a Kraftwerk fetishist, but the versions on The Mix have never felt any longer to me. (Autobahn for one is a lot shorter.)

― Ben Williams, Sunday, 10 August 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I need a copy of this. It was the first Kraftwerk I ever heard (borrowed a friend's tape) and I loved it but have never owned it. I remember the mixes as being poppier (good thing in the case of Autobahn and Robots, bad thing for Radioactivity though it does make a great europop song so I don't mind, the TEE stuff I think is better on TEE, that's all from memory anyway.)

Kraftwerk's problem is that they were rockists as much as their fans are, enslaved to the idea of a 'finished' piece of work that never arrives. I'm fond of the Mix because it's them loosening up a bit.

― Tom (Groke), Sunday, 10 August 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Kraftwerk were very future oriented for many years. The Mix was something different, a change of philosophy. They were no longer looking to the future of music and machine, but enshrining their own past, consolidating the legend of Kraftwerk. As for the record itself, it was an album of remixes of classic tracks. Never did the remixes touch the magic of the originals, nor were they intended to. It was an act of self-homage. The production was, as ever, sparse, spatial and clean. It was also a little stiff and old-fashioned in the rhythms compared to what was coming out around the same time from younger artists. Occasionally, especially in the remix of 'The Robots', there were rather tantalising glimpses of what a new Kraftwerk album with new songs might have sounded like.

When this record came out it was at the height of Sheffield bleepiness. There was a palpable feeling of disappointment in the air over 'The Mix'. It was evident that Kraftwerk had run out of inspiration. Their muse had definitely flown for good - but they wanted to continue to milk their own legend. On the other hand, it's not a colossal disaster of a record. For many people, it was their first encounter with Kraftwerk. To hear these tracks in remix form without having heard the originals would be a far more exciting experience than to hear them as reworkings of perfect songs which required no reworking. Especially if you had no particular expectation of Kraftwerk continuing to write their curious and aspergic music long into the 21st century, bringing out fresh tracks ever couple of years, then The Mix would sound special and fascinating, and not like a coffin door slamming shut.

The Mix is a kind of human tragedy - the death of an artistic resolve. Wolfgang and Karl have written extensively about the draining of Kraftwerk's creative impetus, while Ralf and Florian remain silent. For many electronic artists familiar with their work, the career trajectory of the band holds some kind of dread secret. Why did they give up? How do they keep going, having given up? It's creepy, uncanny, and disturbing. What does it say about the nature of the use and abuse of creativity while in the limelight?

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Sunday, 10 August 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Colin, I don't think it's as much "songs that needed reworking" as songs that were reworkable -- and on that level, I think The Mix succeeded quite well. The versions hold up. The matter of whether the group had any gas left in the tank compositionally is almost beside the point.

And if you listen past your disappointment in there being no new material, there are some moments of real, genuine magic -- the aforementioned computer barbershop in "Autobahn," the snappy "Pocket Calculator." Especially in light of their lack of, erm, radioactivity in the last 13 years, having those versions is a pretty nice addition to their catalog. For that matter, I think it should be quite easy to separate the record from the era in which it came out -- unlike a lot of that "Sheffield bleepiness" of the early 90s, The Mix sounds decidely not dated today.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Sunday, 10 August 2003 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

the mix sounds dated. it is just that there are actual tunes propping up the cheese-ball production. Bleep would have dated a lot better if there had been even a hint of basic songcraft involved in those records.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 01:37 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, techno's all about basic songcraft.

Bleep held up just fine. I love Warp Classics Vol 2, that's as good as anything out of Detroit and Chicago from that era.

― Ben Williams, Monday, 11 August 2003 01:41 (twenty-two years ago)

It was the first Kraftwerk album I heard in its entirety, around the same time I got Joy Division's Closer. At the time, in the weird head I was in, I honestly thought it was brilliantly, bitingly chilling and wonderful, reading all kinds of brilliant satire and social criticism in it. Some time later I heard Radio-Activity. I thought it was a disappointing piece of thin-sounding hippie wank.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 11 August 2003 02:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Opinions of all kinds. I am starting to suffer from a kind of multiperspectival madness as I try to digest it all.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 11 August 2003 02:38 (twenty-two years ago)

It's the only Kraftwerk record I don't own, and have never even heard!

Guess I'm gonna buy it now, my interest has been piqued.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 11 August 2003 02:40 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't like it much. the sounds all encompass the bad aspects of one of the worst periods in history production-wise..

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 02:43 (twenty-two years ago)

< /hyperbole>

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 02:43 (twenty-two years ago)

what sundar said

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 11 August 2003 02:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The Mix was quite painful when it came out, it was their conscious admission that they'd thrown in the towel and were content to consolidate. it's a little easier to listen to it today. it's also a lot better than Electric Cafe, all things being relative.

at least it wasn't as much of a disaster as the Elektric Music stuff, though the last song from Esperanto, 'Overdrive', singlehandedly trumps all post-83 Kraftwerk and a great deal of everything else in the process...

― jl (Jon L), Monday, 11 August 2003 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)

one more thing: the '98 tour was one of my greatest concert experiences ever, and with a few exceptions, those were the same versions as on The Mix. in context, these versions form a listenable overview of their whole career more effectively than a compilation of the original album versions would.

The digital retool of 'numbers' was incredible. And the three new songs were great, I enjoy listening to them.

― jl (Jon L), Monday, 11 August 2003 03:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, jl, I discovered 'Overdrive' too at the end of Elektric Music too. Tune!! You had to wade through the entire album to get to it - but it may have been the last sign we got of what a modern Kraftwerk could sound like if they got reinspired and hit the rhythm box hard.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 11 August 2003 03:11 (twenty-two years ago)

man this record is just bringing the chucklehead out in everyone. it's great!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 05:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i would honestly rather die than hear anotther act who cared a whit about "basic songcraft" in the remainder of my life.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a rather quaint idea, isn't it? like being a blacksmith or a candlemaker.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 05:54 (twenty-two years ago)

or musically competent

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 05:58 (twenty-two years ago)

"basic songcraft" doesn't really mean anything anyway. just because you follow its tenets doesn't mean your melody is going to be worth a shit

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:00 (twenty-two years ago)

What's a chucklehead? Is it someone who has a head and chuckles? I have a friend who's a candlemaker, Strongo. I'll tell him how quaint he is next time I see him.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:15 (twenty-two years ago)

please do!

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:15 (twenty-two years ago)

also, if you know any silver smythes, goode sir.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:16 (twenty-two years ago)

i just realized why k-werk are such a bad influence: 10,000,000 people who think melody is of prime importance in electronic dance music.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry to get all sub-geir on your ass but i think the melody is of prime importance in ALL music.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i once had an argument with a trance fan who told me i didn't get trance because i couldn't dance to the melody. I AM A SLAVE TO THE RHYTHM, PEOPLE.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i am in awe of your comprehensive african drumming and Buddy Rich collection

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

jess's top 6 important qualities in a dance track:

1. good rhythm & i can dance to it...i give it an 89
2. hooks/riffs
3. big honking fuck-off bassline
4. "atmosphere"
5. samples from hip-hop tracks
6. melodies

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"dancing to the melody", that's like harmolodics or something? Some Ornette Coleman shit?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:22 (twenty-two years ago)

2. hooks/riffs
3. big honking fuck-off bassline
5. samples from hip-hop tracks
6. melodies

these four are not mutually exclusive

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i didn't think i'd have to spell it out but melody is so much more than just the singer and the lead break.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

actually melodies would be somewhere between "chipmunk voices" and "that sleighbell sample pete rock always used"

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

also cf. Rakim "check out my melody" in a track which had no melody

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:24 (twenty-two years ago)

mr. diamond ain't no joke

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:24 (twenty-two years ago)

you know I got soul!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:25 (twenty-two years ago)

must resist losing my patience on ILM for the thirtieth time this week

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 06:26 (twenty-two years ago)

jess today = man wandering around college campuses in '68 asking 'do you know about the revolution' with impossibly smug expression

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 11 August 2003 08:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Taking sides: Kraftwerk's The Mix vs. Cabaret Voltaire's Technology: Western Re-Works

Both of them came out in the early 90s, both of them "updated" the sound of one of the pioneer groups working in their fields to something more like the artists who had been inspired by them in the first place, both of them possibly an attempt to give props to the past by dressing up older material in current clothing.

When both of these albums came out I was bitterly disappointed; like a few of the other people posting upthread, I thought they stripped the material of almost everything that made it great in the first place. Both of the groups had, seemingly, lost their way. Oddly, though, The Mix really grew on me when I came back to it later on, because the songs were still strong and while the production was different it was still very crisp and clean...and heaven help me, I actually think I prefer some of these reworks of the Computer World tracks, too. The Cab V remix album, on the other hand, always made me upset...the reworkings were almost too different, and the changes they made didn't seem to add anything to the material at all. It's been a while since I've been back to Technology so perhaps my opinion will have changed...but I tend to doubt it.

Of course, we know what's happened since. A major dry spell for Kraftwerk (and some have suggested that they've remained mostly silent because they're far more interested in cycling than they are in making music these days). Cabaret Voltaire, on the other hand, seem to have had a minor comeback shortly afterward, focusing far more on ambience...and there's no clear cut answer as to whether it was successful.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 11 August 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

The Mix is the only Kraftwerk album I've ever heard. I listened to it once in high school and decided I don't care about Kraftwerk. Yet another example of source material not being as good as whatever samples it. I guess I liked it better than the Gravity Kills remix album, though.

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Monday, 11 August 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i would honestly rather die than hear anotther act who cared a whit about "basic songcraft" in the remainder of my life.

Jess in "not getting music at all" shockah.

I will mail you a bunch of Throbbing Gristle, Kenji Haino and Thomas Koner cdr's, because obviously that is the only stuff you want to hear. Heaven forbid you should listen to music by people who know how to structure and arrange songs.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread just keeps getting better and better.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

ts: being the smug campus revolutionary VS. being the dad from the wonder years.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

(The funny thing about what Mike just said is that I think Throbbing Gristle owes a lot more to "basic songcraft" than people think they do.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

(mt is thinking along the lines of 2nd annual report, not 20 Jazz Funk Greats)

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

(mt in thinking along the lines of recieved wisdom whether true or not shockah)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

(mt is thinking it's funny that 5 out of 6 of jess's criteria for good dance music involve "basic songcraft")

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't open this thread for the longest time because I really thought it was just going to be 70+ ppl going "yeah OF COURSE this is the best Kraftwerk alb (w/ the poss exception of the 'Ralf and Florian' rec) - it's got all of the hits!"

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

(Jess, if I wanted your opnion I would read Simon Reynolds blog)

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

(mike if i wanted your opinion - which you really labor under the idea that i do, or worse need it - i could pull off half a dozen derrick may interviews on the interweb.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess resorted to italics, I think I just got under his skin.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(and at least then they'd be the yawnsome pretentious witterings of someone who had at least occasionally made good music at some point in his life, irregardless of intent.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(haha x-post. keep trying mt, maybe someday you might actually have an effect on my thinking one way or another.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I am not too worried about your thinking, your bad taste in electronic music needs to be called out.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

and aren't you the one who callled innovator one of the most importnat releases of the 90's?

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

well, ditto, kiddo.

did you miss the point where i said he made "good music at some point in his life"?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(actually i'm not particularly bothered by your "taste" at all (hell we probably like a lot of the same stuff), just your wack wack wack ideas about it.)

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Well the thing is...a lot of tracks on The Mix sound like Derrick May remixes. Which = classic. Which nicely segues into my pet-theory that one of those two "new" members of Kraftwerk on Tour De France Soundtracks is Robert Hood (not really, but you know it fun to make these things up).

― Omar (Omar), Monday, 11 August 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

that is one of the best lies I have heard in awhile.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Monday, 11 August 2003 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

well i'm glad i wasn't awake for that little exchange above

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

your Geirisms were no better! but i would like to point out that this talk of lack-of-melody-in-electronic/dance-music at the time of 'The Mix' and early Warp is interesting because again i feel the need to remind how 808 State's stuff at this time utilised melodies (albeit mostly of the very jazzy variety) so well.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 11 August 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

were it not for a complete lack of vocals '90' is quite possibly the closest thing to a great Kraftwerk album from the very end of the 80s.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 11 August 2003 22:55 (twenty-two years ago)

your Geirisms were no better!

go fuck yourself.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

is this a battle royale now?

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

oh for fuck's sake. you people just don't get it do you? how about taking a step back and realising that you're just taking a contrary stances to support your daft argument? i certainly expected better than jess' horseshit above. aren't you meant to be a fucking music writer? taking sides: bothering to understand something about music vs "i know what i like"

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

none of this has anything to do with Kraftwerk and if i'm not making sense it's because i'm really really angry

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

jim if you can honestly tell me why i'm supposed to "understand something about music" in this context (and what it is I'm supposed to understand) then i will happily eat crow.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't understand your anger jim considering all you have done is echo sentiments peddled with vigour by Geir (which i do think are actually valid but not necessarily of any real significance in the majority of discussions here) elsewhere, which is fair enough, as is jess saying they're not important for him (based on his understanding of what melodies are), so what's the problem again?

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

if you're taking "basic songcraft" to mean what Bob Dylan does then you're reducing it pretty damn heavily. you're turning what's effectively a very broad and all-encompassing (and ergo kinda meaninglessly general) phrase into the mission statement for the evil "campaign for real music"

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

i think mike was doing a pretty good job of that himself.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

and please stop talking this shit about melody. stevem if you really believe i think like geir just go and die please? jess if you've ever sang along to a song or grooved to a bassline or hummed the hook then you care about the melody. maybe it's not your prime concern but it's part of the whole picture. if you still deny that it has some importance then i don't know what to say.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i never denied it has some importance. it just isn't of PRIMARY importance. to me. in dance music.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean i guess i could hum along to what i'm listening to now ("terrorist") but humming "whub whub whub" for the bassline and making a lot of chikky-chikky noises for the drums doesn't strike me as very melodic.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i have no doubt that most of my favorite dance tracks were put together in a very deliberate fashion to affect my body, but it has nothing to do with taylor's definition of "basic songcraft".

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry jim but you reminded me of him here! and you quoted him yourself - but clearly there are differences. i actually miss Geir deeply...he wasn't so bad (whew, it sure is hot in here...)

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

jim's remark that 'melody is of prime importance in ALL music' is exactly what Geir said many times - all fair enough but it meant Geir didn't consider any 'sound art' not structured around strong and decent melodies to actually BE music itself.

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

humming "whub whub whub" for the bassline and making a lot of chikky-chikky noises for the drums doesn't strike me as very melodic

It's a hook, though, and since that's all that matters, I am bemused at the way this thread has developed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

are 'Energy Flash' or 'Dominator' melodic? i'm a little confused

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I can sing along to Dominator - I'm not sure how useful the word 'melodic' is to describe that. In its connotative sense - surely the one Jess was using - 'melodic' = 'having a pretty tune'. A lot of dance music falls below a threshold of pretty tunefulness below which EVEN THOUGH IT HAS A MELODY YES OK it's not helpful critically to call it 'melodic'.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

jim's remark that 'melody is of prime importance in ALL music' is exactly what Geir said many times

i think that geir and I would probably have a very different view on what constitutes a good melody. also i am not even slightly rhythm phobic.

*sigh* i don't even remember what my point was anymore. back to the indie band threads for me

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 11 August 2003 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I need some help guys, where in this thread have I defined what I mean by "basic songcraft"?

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

i think that geir and I would probably have a very different view on what constitutes a good melody. also i am not even slightly rhythm phobic.

yeh i see that your idea on what constitutes melody is different from his - but then, can you give an example of an electronic track from between '87 and '93 that you feel has great melodic elements - just to clarify?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:03 (twenty-two years ago)

or even an indie track ;)

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"actual tunes", whatever that objectively means

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

an electronic track from between '87 and '93 that you feel has great melodic elements

Pacific by 808 state. Voodoo Ray. Papua New Guinea.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

hooray :)

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

and i'm pretty sure jess loves those tracks primarily for those melodic elements too?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

no, those tracks reek of basic songcraft, whatever that means.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

verse chorus verse chorus middle 8 chorus

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

that is pop songcraft, you can do quite a bit outside those strict guidelines and still have a song on your hands.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:13 (twenty-two years ago)

but jim's three examples don't really conform to that notion of songcraft at all surely

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:21 (twenty-two years ago)

the interesting thing (to me anyway) is that pop songcraft IS the current field for "innovation" in dance/electronic music, whether we're talking electroclash, microhouse ballads, tigerbeat styled pop/rap cutups, etc.

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:23 (twenty-two years ago)

voodoo ray is loosely verse/chorus/verse and i can sing it for you if you like.

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

i was being silly just then

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

'voodoo ray' is the one that strikes me as the most 'rebellious' - lici 'acid trax' it might as well not have a beginning, middle or end - a 'one take' experiment crystallising into extra-terrestrial mantra that can never lose its appeal.

'pacific' has as much to do with classical and jazz craft as it does pop i.e. a noticeable chunk, but what separates those three crafts really?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

the way the parts are put together, primarily

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

one is a horizontal progression the other is a vertical progression.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:28 (twenty-two years ago)

well for what its worth it seems pretty clear those tracks, while perhaps directly or indirectly influenced by Kraftwerk, were far 'ahead' or just on an altogether different level of what was offered on The Mix, but i think colin barrow's justification of sorts for The Mix seems correct.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:29 (twenty-two years ago)

(one moves through harmonic progression (chord changes) and the other through timbral manipulation and changes in drum programming)

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:29 (twenty-two years ago)

thats not to say i consider Kraftwerk's original pop songcraft ethos as remotely inferior to these other approaches - i do not.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe we should now all go listen to Williams Fairey's 'Acid Brass'?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

or Balanescu Quartet and Senor Coconut?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

the thing about kraftwerk is that they were all conservatory guys with rich parents who could afford the technology. Their cross over into street music was almost accidental. The influence of James Brown is undeniable, but they never really worked in a low culture sense.

What killed them was that the technology they had exclusive access to in the 70's became commerically available for a lot more producers. They were just over-run by a flood of records. Yeah there was a great deal of innovation outside of there camp, but how many people did it take to do it? There was never really another group that covered as much ground. There were a lot of pockets and producers who had variations and progressions on their theme, but few individuals pushed as far.

New Order and Depeche Mode come to mind, but who else pushed as far and had as long of a career?

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Only Brian Eno. And Rod Stewart.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Arthur Baker to an extent

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:55 (twenty-two years ago)

scratch that as he comes under New Order and not much else after that really

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i think what i disliked about the mix when it first came out was that it didn't meet my expectations for where a group like kraftwerk could go with the remix concept (plus it had been what, six years since their last release). now that i've grown up a bit (he says whilst he strokes his beard), i've come to accept that it's primarily a good thing when expectations aren't met because this usually just equals predictability and predictability is boring. they took a chance i guess. it's pretty much the only kraftwerk album i listen to these days. i pulled out computer world the other night and took it off halfway through...

(and in response to the comment about the cabs upthread, i've really warmed to their remix album over the years, too.)

― disco stu (disco stu), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:00 (twenty-two years ago)

based on what i've heard it seemed there was an interesting 'tennis match' of sorts taking place between Kraftwerk and New Order at the time of 'Blue Monday', notable BBC docu featuring Peter Hook describing how Kraftwerk came into the same studio New Order were in asking how they got the bassdrum pattern on 'Blue Monday' so perfect...

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I need some help guys, where in this thread have I defined what I mean by "basic songcraft"?

taylor your get out of jail free card is that you never really say much of anything except to throw a bunch of vague generalizations and loaded terms around which you can then retreat from and say "when did i define (x)". everyone knows you didn't define dick. at the very least we can tentatively assume that that "basic songcraft" involves actual tunes? or maybe the lack thereof? since you've admitted more or less that you don't even know what "basic songcraft" means and the paragraph is so convoluted to begin with (so is the mix bad because it has actual tunes but the dated bleep production weighs them down? does "bleep" signify a certain deviation from the idea of "basic songcraft" or refer to the production style of the time? does "basic songcraft" = the actual tunes that bleep doesn't have? and if so, how has the mix dated badly since it has those actual tunes? or was the bleep comment a totally superfluous sentence tacked on at the end? etc etc adfuckingnauseum) that i'm not sure how it even qualifies as criticism.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Wihout feeling any particular heat about this matter, I assumed that what Mike was referring to by 'basic songcraft' was simply the craft involved in writing songs. Thinking up melodies, rhythms, etc etc is basic songcraft. I thought he was making a case for The Mix lacking any basic songcraft because it lacked any new songs. No crafting of new songs - no songcraft. It certainly had plenty of studio craft.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought he was making a case for The Mix lacking any basic songcraft because it lacked any new songs.

how in the fuck is this not redundant to the point of ridiculousness then? and how does it relate to the bleep comment?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

was he saying that the entire early roster of warp was merely tweaking versions of old rockabilly songs?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't hear the bleep comment. Was it bleeped?

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:28 (twenty-two years ago)

i think mike is saying: old kraftwerk songs produced/written well, new kraftwerk songs poorly produced and you only like them because you liked the old kraftwerk songs, too. bleep would have been even better if they could write songs as well as kraftwerk. the only reason to even bring in bleep would be to argue that "the mix" would have been really good if their production skills matched LFO's or Sweet Exorcist's.

of course, what are the new homecomputer and pocket calculator if not bleep? (fwiw i think those are definite improvements on the 'computer world' versions)

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

why won't the "production auteur" trope just die?

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

i imagine that if somebody came along today and remixed LFO and Sweet Exorcist it would probably also be fairly wretched

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(i r anti-"remix for the sake of it")

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 01:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i heartily recommend the following lfo remixes: surgeon remix of "nurture", spiritualized remix of "tied up".

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 02:13 (twenty-two years ago)

well the new LFO sounds a lot like old LFO...unlike Kraftwerk perhaps!

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 02:13 (twenty-two years ago)

the best lfo ever was on homogenic. mark bell is the homogenius. also "Advance" is better than "Frequencies (but is it still in print?)

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 02:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I was 10 when the Mix came out and when "The Robots" went into the charts, I thought it was another Bleep tune. I liked it though and prefer that version to the original simply because the robot voices are cooler.

― dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought he was making a case for The Mix lacking any basic songcraft because it lacked any new songs.
how in the fuck is this not redundant to the point of ridiculousness then? and how does it relate to the bleep comment?

-- strongo hulkington (dubplatestyl...), August 12th, 2003.

Not to get into an argument with a man called Strongo Hulkington (I picture a cross between Henry Rollins and The Hulk)... but it's not redundant to point out the absence of songcraft in this record, and more than it's redundant to point out that a car has a missing wheel.
It is an obvious point... but then it's intyeresting to speculate (as ex-members of Kraftwerk do) on how it is, excactly, that such an inspired outift gradually lost the will to write new material - and yet did not break up. That, to me, is the interesting question. The Mix was the first palpable evidence that Kraftwerk hadd lost their creative spirit. Why did it happen?

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 03:32 (twenty-two years ago)

As for the bleep comment - bleeps are good. I like bleeps. Bleep!

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I kind of get what all you fools is talkin bout, comparing elegant minimal originals to cheezwiz remixes. If I was a long time fan & then I got The Mix I prob. wouldnt like it. But the Mix was the first kwerk I got & me loooove it. It just sounds good. I like cheezwiz. At the same time I also like electronic minimalsim stuff. So I wasn't dissappointed when I got Man Machine & computerworld. I like those too. But the Mix is the most fun for me ears. Hey I'm easy to please.

So heres a question for yoos. Suicide to thread? How do you fools feel about the raw first album vs. the hi-polished Ric Ocasek- produced 2nd album? I like em both, but #2 is definitely my favorite. I think the synths sound so good, way more variety & punch in the sounds, although the first album has a nice spacyness throughout- but raw & dated at the same time in the best possible way. No band could do that so well as a band crossing elvis with sci fi spaceship shit. Me love it.

― sucka (sucka), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 04:03 (twenty-two years ago)

...it's intyeresting to speculate (as ex-members of Kraftwerk do) on how it is, excactly, that such an inspired outift gradually lost the will to write new material - and yet did not break up. That, to me, is the interesting question. The Mix was the first palpable evidence that Kraftwerk hadd lost their creative spirit. Why did it happen?

"Denial"

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 04:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i like both Suicide records - the second one sounds better but i prefer the songs on the first. i shudder to think what a remix album of Suicide songs would be like however

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 04:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps it would sound like Sigue Sigue Sputnik.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 04:22 (twenty-two years ago)

a kitten will die for that comment

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 04:22 (twenty-two years ago)

(*cries*)

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 04:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I deserve better for making such a clever, witty comment. And so does the poor kitten.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 04:25 (twenty-two years ago)

hi colin, martin here, thanks for remembering us, cheers

http://4dw.net/docsputnik/martinindex.jpg

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 04:29 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

revive

― lfam, Saturday, 12 May 2007 08:06 (eighteen years ago)

can't stand the version of 'pocket calculator' on this.

― haitch, Saturday, 12 May 2007 10:12 (eighteen years ago)

i like the Mix just fine as its own little album. i really like the version of "Computerlove" on it.

― latebloomer, Saturday, 12 May 2007 11:25 (eighteen years ago)

The sad thing about this record is that there is a pissed electro Francois K b-side remix on The Telephone Call 12" that shits all over that record. They still had it even a few years earlier.

Was this their first post rhythm section album, or did Woflgang and Carl leave after this record?

― Display Name, Sunday, 13 May 2007 00:49 (eighteen years ago)

i would honestly rather die than hear anotther act who cared a whit about "basic songcraft" in the remainder of my life.

-- strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, August 11, 2003 1:53 AM (3 years ago)

wau

― HI DERE, Sunday, 13 May 2007 19:11 (eighteen years ago)

this thread was great!

― strongohulkington, Sunday, 13 May 2007 19:18 (eighteen years ago)

I had to spend seven minutes talking myself down from yelling at you over a three-year-old post!

― HI DERE, Sunday, 13 May 2007 19:18 (eighteen years ago)

(Not that you weren't right within the context of this conversation but as a general outlook on music that sentence makes me wanna break stuff.)

― HI DERE, Sunday, 13 May 2007 19:20 (eighteen years ago)

very little i said in 2003 wasn't exaggerated for rhetorical effect

― strongohulkington, Sunday, 13 May 2007 19:21 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I know! Still, red flag : bull :: that sentence : me

― HI DERE, Sunday, 13 May 2007 19:23 (eighteen years ago)

I laid into lfam on the Derrick May poll thread because of this.

― Display Name, Sunday, 13 May 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

i held my own

― lfam, Sunday, 13 May 2007 23:57 (eighteen years ago)

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