Amon Duul Vs. Can : The Battle for the Krautrock Krown

Yeti pretty much rules over everything, btw.

(faust)

Can't hear your Faust hate, but Cluster did save my life one summer pretty much literally.

And while we're at it, HOW underrtaed were AR & The Machines??? I know often unreliable Cope went nutso over that Echo LP but dude was spot on - have you guys HEARD that record?? JEEEZUS!!

when I was fifteen I made the mistake of asking my brand new step-mom to translate the german on the cover of the first Faust album. She dutifully made it through the first several sentences, then said 'oh my.' long pause. 'oh MY. oh. oh NO!' long pause. then she handed me back the album and left the room without saying a word.

we never quite got to around to getting along after that...

the record was playing in the background while she was translating, which didn't help

the record was playing in the background while she was translating, which didn't help.

Does David Hasslehoff count as krautrock?

Nena vs. Falco vs. Trio, though? Very hard to say...

Malaria vs. Ja Ja Ja would also be a bit of a tossup.

Overrated: Neu.

Mekanik Destructiw Komandoh vs. Einsturzende Neubaten.

Um, doesn't ALL Kraut rock do this? And aren't pyschedelia and avant-jazz "experimental" by definition.

Probably the real test would just be to count umlauts, anyway.

Doesn't all Kraut rock do THIS too?????

I mean, how the hell can anyone TELL if Germans are joking???
(Not counting that Holocaust thing, I mean.)

though the first Kraftwerk record trumps it for variety and intensity. man that record rocks. it's one of the best records in the field, they never reached such psychotic, free heights again.

Bad Kreuznach, 1982-1984
Mainz, 1984-1986.

Guru Guru rulez. Do I get a prize for mentioning them? Anyway, Hinten is great, imaginative free-rock jamming; Mani Neumeier is a monster drummer.

And while we're at it, HOW underrtaed were AR & The Machines???

you think maybe this has to do with none of their recordings being easily accessible (at least until soulseek)? that compilation is good, but it wasn't until i downloaded _everything_ by them that i really got it. the first one has one of my favorite incoherent euro-hippie songs ever ("come on people, people come on, come on people people come on"). if anyone ever gets on the stick and reissues AR stuff (and while they're at it, code III and silberbart) it might get the attention it deserves.

* Amon Duul II : first three
* Can : until Flow Motion
* Amon Duul II : afterwards
* Can : afterwards
* Amon Duul I

On the other hand - I once owned "Tago Mago" by Can; never could get into it; and sold it. I'd like to try again with them, of course, at some point.

(Anyway: Guru Guru!)

"Tago Mago", "Ege Bamyasi" and "Future Days" are never far from my stereo and despite many, many spins still sound fresh as a daisy. My Amon Duul records on the other hand... what few I have left of them that is, spend most of their time in a suitcase.

"Hinten" and "Kangaroo"... best combination of goose-step
Deutschland-Deutschland-uber-alles and heavy rock.

They would have ruled the world had they had the nerve and brains
to cover der Lied der Panzertruppen from "The Battle of the
Bulge."

Yes!

Also, about Guru Guru, I think they could possibly still rule the world if people start making the connection between them and bands like Acid Mothers Temple and High Rise. See also Sweden's Trad, Gras & Stenar/Parson Sound/Harvester. A lot of times, I see people reference ADII when they probably really mean Guru Guru.

I would kind of hope this to be the last word on this entire subject, but obviously its not going to be because ILMer-hyper-musicology.

Here it goes:

Neu!, Can, Faust, Ash Ra Tempel, Amon Duul 2

IN THAT ORDER!

Discussion 1. I don't know where to insert Harmonia, La Dusseldorf, or Cluster, but they're definately there

Discussion 2. I ALWAYS kick myself when trying to choose who gets #1 - Can or Neu!, and the majority of the time I seriously think Can, but for some strange reason I'll ALWAYS end up picking Neu! - Their Trinity of albums is just too damn good

Discussion 3. I like the fact that this turned into a general discussion about Krautrock, considering the dispute between Can and Amon Duul 1/2 was ridiculous from the beginning - ALWAYS Can (come on! think about, Future Days/Ege../Tago... were some of the finest recordings in the history of music!)

Discussion 4. Ash Ra Tempel and co (ok, Klaus Schulze only played drums on their self-titled, but he doesn't need a universe of electronic equipment to be good) were completely awesome, and Manuel Gottsching kicks those Duul-motherfuckers any time. Plus, think about it! - Tim Leary/7-Up?, how mad is that! And the build up in 'Light Look at Your Sun' from Schwimgungen is the best piece of blues outside of the Mississipi Delta

Discussion 5. Finally, though i don't believe Klaus D. Mueller in his destruction-of-Krautrock-mythology, you can't really give an acurate comparison with bands like Can or Neu, or Ash Ra Tempel or Cluster (although Amon Duul and Can is acceptable, just obvious). But Krautrock, i suppose, is more of an era-term rather than one concerning musicality (although all did have similiar machinic, psychadelic traits).

so, yea. Oh, and yes - Faust were very very very very good. That big special on them in Wire a few months ago was pretty good, agree?

and: Cosmic Jokers, anyone?

dleone's Heavyweights of Krautrock in dleone's particular order:
1. Can
2. Faust
3. Kraftwerk
4. Neu!
5. Cluster
6. Tangerine Dream
7. Harmonia
8. Amon Duul II
9. Agitation Free
10. Ash Ra Tempel/Manuel Göttsching
11. Guru Guru
12. Popol Vuh
13. Klaus Schulze
14. Conrad Schnitzler/Kluster
15. La Dusseldorf
16. Walter Wegmuller
17. Amon Duul I
18. Cosmic Jokers

dleone, which albums from this nexus do you recommend?

nice list! thanks for putting your arm under the paper cutter, there. normally I'd cringe at any attempt at prioritizing these bands but that's quite a sensible rundown. back here in my fantasy dome I'd probably invert the first two, but I know faust will always be a band that hurts some people. & thanks for putting kraftwerk above neu.

ULI TREPTE'S SPACEBOX

Their first album is the ultimate skewed headfuck music ever commited to record. Guru Guru was never quite the same after Uli exited - and this album demonstrates why. This was recorded in 1979 - well after the psychedelic heyday - and effortlessly slays any and all of the contempo, tinny postpunk racket which aspired to be the vanguard of its day. PiL? Einstürzende Neubauten? Bah! Spacebox are the real deal! This freaked out anger has no peers.

Dual drums, Trepte's remarkably brutal bass playing, distorted menacing vocals, unbelievably out there lyrics, spacebox, free jazz sax, noise, hiss, and more noise...

Try it, you'll like it.

Track down the Captain Trip reissue CD, if you can find it. (The second and last Spacebox lp, 'Kick Up' was reissued by CT as well; it's well worth owning, but not nearly as insane/intense as the eponymous debut.)

[I love early Can, but I say the Amon Düül II is the frontrunner here. Much as I love early Can, it's painfully obvious that they were forever stumbling in the dark without Malcolm and/or Damo. AD II, on the other hand, had a remarkable stable of distinctive and talented voices/songwriters/instrumentalists: Chris Karrer, Renate Knaup, Lothar Meid, John Weinzierl, etc. And some of those highlights are high indeed: the choir-organ, the "Archangels Thunderbird" riff and vocal (does music ever get much better than this?), the way Renate sings "Trap" on 'Vive la Trance' ... and are you going to seriously try to tell me that post-Damo Can ever approached anything near the magnificence of "Da Guadeloop"?! .... ]

still haven't heard Neu. I did look for a while in 2nd hand shops as i was expecting the reish CDs to turn up but i don't think i found anything. and then i stopped looking.

julio, you should buy the first neu! album.

But I DO agree with you that Uli Trepte was the true genius of Guru Guru. Strangely, though, Mani Neumeier's 1995 solo disc, 'Privat', was surprisingly good - quite amazing considering the consistent garbage under the Guru Guru moniker that he's been responsible for. Also, Ax Genrich's 'Wave Cut' (from around the same time) was impressive; definitely the closest thing to 'Kanguru'-era Guru Guru any of the trio has done since.

On another note, here's yet another relatively unknown Krautrock classic: 'Eruption' by Kluster (with-a-K). Actually, both Kluster studio lps ('Klopfzeichen' and 'Zwei Osterei') are classics, but the live 'Eruption' beats them both, in my opinion. Can't beat that brooding and edgy pitch-black soundscape they conjure up.

Also check out Conrad Schnitzler's more recent piano works. Those are something else!

haha

willem- email sent.

and Zonk MAchine by Spacebox is really good too, and ahh fuck it

I'm sorry dleone, normally I'm down wit' you all the way but that is utter nonsense - "Father Cannot Yell"? "Mother Sky"? Whether they would admit it or not BOTH Neu! and early Kraftwerk borrowed heavily from Can especially the two tracks mentioned. For what it's worth Can are so far ahead of Amon Duul II it's not funny - tho I like ADII.

This is where I stand, for what it's worth, which isn't much probably:

1. Quintessential: Can/ Kraftwerk

2. Essential but not enough to prefaced by a Quint: Neu/ Faust/ Popol Vuh

3. Sehr gut: Cluster (and variants thereof)/ Harmonia

4. Very good in bits, not very good in other bits: Tangerine Dream (early to mid)/ Amon Duul II (till about 1973)

5. Entertaining but not especially original or different enough: Ash Ra Tempel/ Guru Guru (till 1973)/ Cosmic Jokers/ Agitation Free/ La Dusseldorf

6. Mediocre but with some interesting aspects: Tangerine Dream (later)/ Klaus Schulze (early)/ Embryo (1st album)/ Gila/ Witthuser & Westrupp/ Emtidi/ Annexus Quam/ Amon Duul/ Floh de Cologne/ Michael Rother/ Ashra

7. Rubbish - Klaus Schulze (everthing else)/ Embryo (the other albums I've heard)/ Guru Guru (after 1973)/ Amon Duul II (after 1973)/ Kraan/ Hoelderlin

8. Prog Rock (i.e., worse than rubbish) - Grobschnitt/ Wallenstein/ Novalis/ Eloy

Most sensible people don't really need categories 5 to 8 in their lives, to be honest. I am loath to describe those in category 8 as Krautrock at all.

Most German rock produced in the 1970s was actually WORSE than British/American music of the same period because it was mostly a hamfisted approximation of British/American rock*. The numbers of bands or musicians capable of producing music that stood apart from (let alone transcended or even improved on) the existing British/American models was relatively few and those are the genuine KRAUTROCK artists. (*You could well argue, I suppose, that badly played prog rock is potentially more interesting than well-played prog rock).

Yes,go Sweden!!! I also add The Harvester and International Harvester recordings.

(i would recommend 'rot' though.)

i play Can.

that pretty much settles it in my mind.

"i want more and more and more...."
m.

And also this minor group called the Beach Boys.

i think Holgar Czukay planned a post-Stockhausen sense of event and otherness rather cynically, just my opinion, but there are so many things that Can did to distinguish themselves from rock music quite deliberately, exploring ambient noise, funk and even disco all within 8 years, and deliberately chasing the american dollar with weird Malcolm Mooney and then just as weird Damo Suzuki -- Can set themselves up as international outsider music

i'm not aying that's a bad thing, or that some of their ideas and albums aren't great, but they're just _not_ rock music

Krautrock involves all the bands upthread except Can (and possibly Kraftwerk for similar reasons) -- Krautrock is looseness, hair, communes, sex and drugs, reaction to Paris '68, anti-work-ethic -- lifestyle leading -=> music -- Can and maybe Kraftwerk just used being German for added oddness -- those two bands are art music, not rock music, however creative the latter may have sounded -- Krautrock is more simply visceral, it more obviousley simply rocks

I've always understood Krautrock as an attempt to break away from Anglo-American rock and produce something quite separate - very explicitly stated in the case of Faust but a factor in all the true Krautrock bands. This is apparent not only in the music produced but also in the "infrastructure" of the bands. Can, Kraftwerk, Faust, Cluster/Harmonia were all self-managed and all self-produced and ALL (eventually) recorded in their own (Inner Space-like) studios. In fact they were all very much in thrall to a post-68 approach to the "business" in general.

i think Holgar Czukay planned a post-Stockhausen sense of event and otherness
I don't really understand this comment. This seems to imply that Czukay was somehow "the leader" of Can which is very far from the truth. It was actually Irmin Schmidt who had the idea for Can and brought together the musicians who made up Can - but Can never had a leader (musically or otherwise) and (again, very post-68) was pretty much a total democracy, a very rare thing in any walk of life!

deliberately chasing the american dollar with weird Malcolm Mooney and then just as weird Damo Suzuki
I'm sorry George but this is baloney. If you are "chasing american dollars" do you employ a barely sane American sculptor who'd never sung a note in his life before? Or do you approach some Japanese freak you've noticed busking in the street and say, "Do you fancy singing at a gig tonight?" - which is exactly what Czukay and Liebezeit did. Not very corporate is it?

-- Fabrice (fabfun...), August 26th, 2003."

Are you kidding? Moonshake is a mutated mishap of bossa/jazz filtered through a bunch of dudes that thought they were playing rock but clearly didn't understand that they were doing something way weirder.

Actually, that kind of applies to a lot of Can songs.

Krautrock, if we even should be ddiscussing this as a genre, seems to me as just a big misunderstanding of rock music. But a very good kind of misunderstanding as Can, Neu!, early Kraftwerk, Faust, Amon Düüls, Göttsching, Mani Neumeier etc etc etc all recorded a wide variety of music that was really weird and, quite often, FANTASTIC. That kind of misunderstanding you can altso see in german genres like Neue Deutsche Welle and... Happy Hardcore.

(I had to de-lurk for a second here )

i think seeing those spoon cd all with different coloured spines (hey, buy the collection ..) so early on in the cd revolution -- i suppose was ahead of it's time too -- but the bahaviour of the reformed faust, and the Kraftwerk "split" and movement into a position seemingly behind the music rather than ahead of it (that greatest hits re-mix thing & the can "Sacrilege" were both _awful_), all these things put me off bands that at one time had had music that was different and ahead of it's time -- i just don't want to call it rock, even if it is correctly krautrock -- a rather trivial distinction i suppose cf: amon düül, who seem like a rock band that rocks very well in the traditional sense and whose early records i also like a great deal, the first three simply made great music (ie meta-rock music)

so maybe this is all trivial and geeky (if you like) -- i got very fed up with hearing about Czukay's Stockhausen link though, and i got sick of some of his ex-band projects -- i suppose i see Can as relatively modest with the exception of him, and with the exception of that funk/disco stuff which was so silly -- i respect the rest of can for being a kind of tight unit even while being sceptical of the mystique the band seems to engourge onto every twenty-years-old's head that i can remember talking about them with, and that the band played on their reputation with "sacrilege" -- in other words, the later qua legendary posturing does not fit well with the early modest proficient excellence for me

so yeah, i don't claim to know these bands histories perfectly, but maybe it's just the legend/ mystique thing played on in recent years by faust, can and kraftwerk, loosely lumped together as krautrock, it's like i feel that behaviour is marketing that does a disservice to the simple modesty that all three bands displayed when they just made good records

and because I got the second Ash Ra Tempel album today and it roolz.

Hey, it's precisely the Jefferson Airplane bits that make me love the Duul so much. Archangel Thunderbird could have come straight off Crown of Creation. And that's a fine thing.

My, my what a pompous ass. Indeed.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, mind you. as someone said upthread, "sons of nazis listening to rock and roll." amon duul were basically the kids who smoked too much pot & listened to american psych (JA, blue cheer even.)

Also, about Guru Guru, I think they could possibly still rule the world if people start making the connection between them and bands like Acid Mothers Temple and High Rise. See also Sweden's Trad, Gras & Stenar/Parson Sound/Harvester. A lot of times, I see people reference ADII when they probably really mean Guru Guru.

I always found the Warhorse lp As Heaven Turns To Ash very reminiscent of Guru Guru except the drummer had to keep reminding people they were a METAL band. Not sure if that came across live at all, I've only seen one video of them. Do wonder what they would have done with a free-jazz drummer.
But yeah can see what you mean with the more out of the heavy guitar japanese bands. Except possibly that on UFO Guru Guru get very industrial sounding tonally, they almost sound like a metal percussion band they get so distorted.
To sidetrack further i hear really metallic tones in King Crimson's Red too, not sure if there is anything there to actually make them or if its just a tonal thing from the instruments.