What is BLACK music? What is WHITE music?

hmm yes but there is nothing about those styles of music which is innately black/white and it's completely misleading to arbitrarily label them according to the skin tone of the performers. It's ridiculous when Radio 1xtra simultaneously advertises itself a) as 'the home of black music in Britain' or whatever and b) with pictures of Eminem and Justin and J-Lo. Who do not make black music because they are not black.

'urban music' which acts more like a euphemism for 'black music' than a replacement.

I don't think there's anything remotely offensive about 'black'/'white' music, it's just inaccurate. And it sort of suggests that ethnicity actually has a bearing on your personality (the kind of art you choose to make). No one ever seriously describes classical music as 'white music'.

Isn't rap derivative of the black street corner rhyming and Ebonics? I.e. rapping definitely is a black way of speaking English. I think the division between "black" and "white" music has nothing to do with racial essentialism, rather than ethnic segregation and traditions that that segregation has kept (partly) different.

Fair enough but ethnicity is a pretty minor factor to me. I don't like the way that line of thought leads you to the 'white people are like THIS, black people like THAT' fallacy.

Saying that there are some generic differences between groups doesn't mean that every member of that group is like THIS. However, we live in a world where ethnic and class differences do matter, even though there are lots of people who transcend those boundaries.

No, no, no -- Spanish people. From Spain. And some Italian people. From Italy.

And as for the electric guitar, I would say that by far the greatest popularizer had nothing to do with race. It wasn't even a person. I would say it was "really small places full of really loud people where it was really hard to hear to band."

VS.

white people making black music
http://hk.yimg.com/hk/providers/boombeat/20021031/eminem.jpg

More like a big band with 20 horns and an acoustic guitar that was impossible to hear.

This is a good point, but I think it's clear that small combos, not big bands (and blues and R&B singles, not big-band ones) were where electric guitar was *popularized.*

Nice guy at the party. Should have worn his scarf more. Died years before the electric guitar was close to popularized.

>Les Paul?

Plugged in first (or second -- does it matter?). Then forgot to turn it up.

Anyway, it had to be legitimized among musicians before it became everybody's favorite instrument.

BLACK guitars vs. WHITE guitars.

Yes.

Can you press these distinctions very far without getting into some sticky shit?

Not usually.

Can boy sings blue the whites?

Yes.

"okay, here's how it works -- if it puts me to sleep, it's folk; if it's played by black guys, it's funk; and if i don't understand it, it's jazz."

It's mad to try to pick apart what types of music are either 'black' or 'white': facets of rap and soul (formerly in the 'black' camp) have been mixed with rock/pop/blah-blah (formerly in the 'white' camp) for ages (even if badly, ie, Limp Bizkit). The benefit nowadays is that facets of both are freely used to give exposure to the widest audience. Otherwise, you would also get into the old argument of who should listen to what.

Pretty damn funny.

A friend of mine told me once that Shellac were 'the whitest band in the world'.
I have no idea what that means.

On the 'worst review for you' thread it's been suggested that Radiohead's music has a lack of black influence.
Huh? Radiohead is (still) largely guitar based, and black people were huge players in popularising the guitar in popular music.

yeah the mind boggles!!! "huh?"!!

-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

Well I still have no idea what Shellac being 'white' means. I know the ppl in the band are white, but the music? That's a bunch of soundwaves.

By 'popularising the guitar' I was thinking of the early blues players, I'm fairly sure I'm right that they made it a mainstream popular music instrument in the 20th century.

The people in NE, NWA and Missy are black. But why call the music black?

Trife, by 'black music' do you just mean genres of music where over a certain percentage of the players are black? So, like, basketball is a 'black' sport?

I'm not arguing with you, I want to know something. If it's all so obvious please write me a simple one word definition of black music and the same of white music, thanks.

I don't live in America, perhaps that's the problem, I think maybe in the UK we're not so obsessed with race.

Isn't it more 'segregating music on culture grounds'? There is no black vs white dichotomy. Many other cultures have musics that are abscribed to them. Wait, ALL cultures have musics that are abscribed to them. What is the difference between labeling something as Japanesse or Indian or Gypsy? (not a rhetorical question) Is it because black culture and music is not tied to one particular landmass? When I think of black music, I think of music predominately developed within the communities of the descendants of slaves. It seems like to deny the existence of black music is to deny the existence of black culture.

(As a translation for Brits.)

(Perhaps simplistic, but then you'll get a sense of how fraught and [needlessly?] complicated it is.)

that's cause the man keeps them down

That makes more sense, you're saying black and white people have different cultures. (vast generalisation but fair enough)

I know it sounds really stupid but that hadn't really occurred to me.
I'd say that the few black ppl I know have, say, 80% the same culture as me.
That's probably because of where I live.

I now that Shellac are white and NWA are black, but their music?

Do people just mean that most artists in the same/similar genres are a certain colour?

i mean, are the motives for that so far beyond your grasp?? honestly, you can disagree with the constraints of the system all you want, whatever, but to say that you literally cannot comprehend why someone would think that, youre either being disingenuous or totally culturally ignorant
-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

I'm not complaining/disagreeing about any system, at most I'm complaining about some peoples use of silly language.
What are their motives? What are your motives? To group music made by black people together as one?
I feel I have more in common with PE (though very little) than I do with Coldplay.

literally cannot comprehend why someone would think that,
Would think what? That some music is black or white? I'm unclear about which 'that' we're talking about now.

I'm not being disingenuous but I probably am ignorant of a lot of culture.

Are you American? Nowadays in Britain class is a LOT less important day to day than Americans seem to think it is.

I'm not claiming England is a rascism free paradise, I can't compare it to America properly because I've never been to America which probably explains why I'm failing to really understand a lot of what's being said here.

I do think, from reading ILx, from newspapers and TV, that America is a lot more up tight about black Vs white stuff.

I don't think that's because England is such a great, friendly place or anything, but because there are few enough black people that they don't seem like a threat. Also there are Asians (mostly from India or Pakistan) and Eastern European immigrants for (white) idiots to pick on.

If you weren't as ignorant of Britain as I am of America you'd know that.

since you come from the racism-free black ppl's paradise of ENGLAND
-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

No I don't. I come from Wales. Wales was conquered/taken-over/invaded by England at some point - I don't know the exact ins and outs or if it was a military, political or by-invitation rout.

Although they're rarely referred to as such, Welsh people are effectively and mostly white ethnic minority living in Britain whose culture has at various points been deliberately weakened by the British government. At times in the last century Welsh children were punished severeley for even speaking their own language.

(I know that comes across like I'm a bitter, vitriolic welsh patriot or something but I'm not at all. I've just said all that as information.

I much prefer that I speak English to Welsh and though I'm proud to be Welsh I think it's the same sort of pride scousers have about liverpool or New Yorkers have about New York.
I'm not bitter that Wales doesn't rule itself, I don't think it should.)

no dave havent you heard!! britain is a classless paradise where nwa and radiohead just collaborated on 'ok compton'
-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

Have you ever lived here? How would you even tell what class someone is? Secret handshake? Money is a lot more important than class, isn't the US a bit like that?

(NWA split up years ago BTW, though I've heard Autechre and Dre have been laying down some beats)

Um, their job, their parents' wealth, their alma mater, etc. It doesn't give you a discount on a hamburger or something, but doesn't it give you greater chances to 'succeed' so that you don't need a discount? Don't need to throw your class status in people's faces because it's such an underlying thing?

Yeah, because the two are completely unrelated. Jobs just hand out random salaries depending on the mood their in on the day.

-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 19th, 2003.

Most people's jobs aren't down to class.
Mostly where wealth determines class it is the defining factor ie someone is a certain class because of the money they have rather than vice versa.
I don't know what an alma mater is. I will look it up.

It doesn't give you a discount on a hamburger or something, but doesn't it give you greater chances to 'succeed' so that you don't need a discount? Don't need to throw your class status in people's faces because it's such an underlying thing?
-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 19th, 2003.

Yes, being upper class does make you more likely to become the chairman of British Gas, but enough money would give you a similar chance. Being lower class makes you more likely to be a pro footballer.

Most people it doesn't determine their jobs/status.

I think what I've said is true.

I know just ignoring it doesn't make the issue go away, but since so much of "class issues" is simply over-thinking and psyching yourself out, it might help. Just a suggestion.

You are soooo right.

Eureka! So by CLASS you mean MONEY. Then we agree, being super rich does give you a different outlook etc.

and as for the English, they're a collectivist species (kinda like ants), what ya gonna do?

Well we could tell them all to get lost from this thread. Leave it to us Americans, Welsh etc.

(Not you Mencap, you're a proud Cornish Gaul!)

But an eighties film...about coalmining?
It'd better be good.

Mei I'm going to have to disagree with you re: class, in any position of even remote authority in this country the old boys network is very much alive and well. As my grandmother would say - and probably has done - no amount of money can disguise bad breeding. The fact that class is considered more important than wealth is exactly what makes 'nouveau riche' a pejorative term.

I can't remember where the race discussion was headed but I'm very well aware of how huge a subject it is in America (tennis boards, the Williams sisters, moronic people, sigh) but even there I'd contend that socio-economic factors are what really underlies it all. You can't talk about 'black culture' and expect it to be one big catch-all which includes, like, Condoleezza Rice AND 50 Cent; poor white people have more in common with poor black people than rich black people do. (Actually to return to tennis - a lot of black fans of the Williams sisters don't like Chanda Rubin who is the other African-American in the top ten because they feel a lot of (white) Williams 'haterz' use her as a cover for their racism; Rubin is mild and quiet and not dominating and pretty posh (judge's daughter), therefore they accuse her of 'acting white' and (I kid you not) like a 'house negro'. Even tbough she is plainly black.)

Darth Vader? Wicked!

I wouldn't say that class means nothing, just that it has little impact on the daya to day existence of most people.

By people in authority I think you don't mean teachers or managers or policemen (or women). You mean politicians etc.

I think teachers/mangers/policepeople have a lot more bearing and are a lot more important to the way the country runs than politicians.

But even then, they'd be the tiny minority of people I come into contact with.

Hahaha! This is possibly THE most middle class statement in the history of the British Isles.

By people in authority I think you don't mean teachers or managers or policemen (or women). You mean politicians etc. I think teachers/mangers/policepeople have a lot more bearing and are a lot more important to the way the country runs than politicians.

To the list of professions where class plays a vital role in the real Britain not in Narnia where Mei appears to live, add: lawyers, judges (the legal profession in general), doctors (the medical profession in general), the civil service, brokers, bankers, financiers, the Army, the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy, architects, surveyors, middle and upper management, the Press, the literary world (publishing in general) - I could go on...

http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/shadowmusic/ 80srock.html

http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/shadowmusic/80srock.html

http://www.neteze.com/space/cds/asia.htm

You're wrong.

Would you like to join one of those professions?
Maybe you can't because you're you.

I think teachers/mangers/policepeople have a lot more bearing and are a lot more important to the way the country runs than politicians.

I meant the Establishment, and the very fact that I can use a term like this and people will know what I mean definitely does indicate the significance of class in the UK. Dadaismus' list was closer to what I was thinking.

Aww damn, she didn't.

So you take away their dignity, forcibly move them to far away lands, and now you want to deny them the right to be credited with having their own distinctive music? Isn't this just a more subtle way of trying to strip black people of their culture?
(BTW, ever heard of the term 'diaspora'?)

"Black" means a lot more than African Americans, mind you...

Well, it is a term that does get debated. Ironically, I think that most Latinos ("Latinos") call it "Spanish music," which makes just as much, if not more sense, but it still sounds wrong to gringos like me.

Technically, much of it should really be called Afro-Latin music, since the "Latin" glosses over the major contribution of African slaves to what is called "Latin" music.

But I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with saying "black music." Much of the problem is simply the need for a quick descriptive term. You can refine it into something like "music primarily created by, and historically created for, the Afro-Diasporan community," with any number of other qualifiers added, but it's faster to say "black music."

(Still reading the thread. I didn't expect it to be that interesting, so I never bothered to check it earlier today.)

The alternative term IberoAmerica is sometimes used to refer to the nations formerly colonies of Spain and Portugal, these last two countries being located on the peninsula of Iberia.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America

I'm still confused about whether Puerto Rico and Cuba should really be considered part of Latin America.

No shit. That's why I purposely refrained from using the term African Americans. Reggae is black music, for instance. If you want to deny that, then you might as well deny that the sky is blue.

If there is one such thing as "black music", then it has to mean "music created by people with a black skin", in which case, Arthur Lee, Michael Jackson, Lionel Richie, Lenny Kravitz and Living Colour all make black music.

Well, duh. What's your point? You seem to take 'black music' to be a very narrow thing, and maybe that's your problem with having such a term exist.

-- mei (meirion.lewi...), September 19th, 2003.

I've been regretting this pretty much since I said it.
I'm sorry I had a go at you Dadaismus.

I know that if you're the queens' third cousin and fabulously wealthy then of course you're more likely to get to the top of most professions than someone born in a coal cellar.
BUT I do believe that someone with soot on their hands can get there too.

I wish people would stop thinking so much about class, colour and gender and just go for it.

That's a very good point.

-- Dadaismus (kcoyne3...), September 19th, 2003.

I made that statement but I don't know if I'm middle class or not. How can I tell?

(I really am NOT taking the micky or being facetious, I want to know)

Okay, I'm currently unemployed, I've been doing work experience on a local magazine for the last few weeks and will be working on a different magazine for the next few. Last academic year I taught A Level ICT at a tertiary college (earning about £8000), before that I spent 4 years doing a Phd and before that I was a computer programmer for about 7 months and before that I was in education (with part time milk-delivery jobs for money).

My father is dead, while living he worked variously as a builder/general repairer, driving an earth mover and as a driver.
My mother is just past retirement age but still works part time cleaning.

Dictionary.com says an almer mater is "The school, college, or university that one has attended."

I went to a comprehensive school (for anyone that doesn't know that's a school run by the government and not paid for by the parents whose kids attend, it's just a normal state school.) and before that normal junior school.
I went to a tertiary college because my school didn't have a sixth form.

I went to Cardiff University for my degree and Phd which I could afford by staying living at home and commuting and by grants I got.

I've had a look for one of those "What X are you?" internet thingies, but while I can find out which member of Sleater-Kinney I am or the current state of my eternal soul, I can't find one that tells me what class I am.

Forgot to say that was in response to oops post:

How would you even tell what class someone is?
Um, their job, their parents' wealth, their alma mater, etc.
-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 19th, 2003.

Oops, you and most of the other people here seem to take 'class' and 'wealth' to be almost interchangeable. I thought that the point of 'class' (as that word is traditionally used in the UK) was that it's something you can't buy or very easily lose. If the Duke of Wessex suddenly goes bankrupt he doesn't become working class, and if I won the lottery ten times in a row I wouldn't turn posh over night.

This is getting silly now because I'm defending terminology that I don't use and I've got into a deep discussion about class when it's something I'm not that interested in.

So can we just take class=wealth please?

And Oops, upward mobility through the classes is way more common than downwards.

If that is the case, then the pentatonic traditional music of East Asia is archetypical black music. :-)

Yep. I said it was *easier* to move down, not more common.

The concept of purity in music is ridiculous, but...
American music could never be as African as African music? That's what you're saying? Well, can't really argue that, now can I? Black music needn't be African, ie it CAN be, but it's also music produced by black people who no longer live in Africa. African traditional music and hip hop, for example, are equally black.

From my very first post on this thread:

There is no black vs white dichotomy.

So yeah, I reject it too.

It doesn't. Let me return to my culinary analogy. An Italian person can choose to eat any food they want. A person of any ethnicity can make and eat and appreciate Italian food. Italian food can be made in any country. You can alter and change and add different, new things to Italian cuisine. If someone changes it enough (how much constitutes 'enough' is never agreed upon) and many people copy these changes, it may become something completely new. If that someone is Italian, it would be called Nouveau Italian or some similar thing. If that someone (of course, it's usually more than one person) is not Italian, we may have to think of a new name for it, perhaps something with a hypen in it.
Still, the techniques and ingredients of that particular type of cuisine which we label 'Italian' were developed by--that's right--Italians.

What is today considered "black" popular music and "white" popular music were both originally created by Americans (although the latter with some more input from UK than the former). So instead of calling it "black" and "white", why don't you just call it "American" as that is what it is?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000009SY.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

isn't it just as simple (no it isn't at all but it is most certainly the starting point in an argument like this) as the division of rhythmical and melodical music?

Obviously, Gabba or trance (or to a far lesser degree techno due to origin) is white because its brain-numbingly repetive and monotonous and is based on melodies rather than the intricacies of rhythm. Jungle on the other hand is most obviously black, because it is based on the said rhytmical complexities

The same with punk/metal etc and ska/reggae/ etc. There are many exceptions of course (Bad Brains, white Junglists et al)

This is the same historically, what with classical orchestral music being completely devoid of rhythm and early black American music being rhythmically based. It is impossible and ridiculous to say that this applies concretely, i mean, melody in blues and even in Davis' electro were extremely important factors, but the rhythmical edge is still outstanding in the presence of, say, Kraftwerk's simple syncopation and heavy melodical feeling. In my opinion at least, the usage of technology and influence has nothing to do with whether or not it can be classified as 'black' or 'white' music.
This polarization, like all polarizations, is not absolute. The groundings of whether any given music is black or white can never fully be determined, but there are some that are just too damn obvious, such as the aforementioned examples. In relation to most music, its pretty stupid classifying 'white' of 'black' anyway, unless of course, you feel like laying down some more racial segregation in music partition so as to further bridge the gap.

how can you say black music has no melody? even the blues scale is based on (guess what) a sequence of notes put together to make a melody

and where do latin, arabic and asian musics (all highly rhythmic and melodic) fit into this whole idea?

that's why upthread i said such blatantly stereotypical and stupid things.
b-b-but black music is more rhythmic because black people sit out in the jungle banging on their drums
white music is much better because it's all complex with it's harmony and melody and shit

!!!!!!!!

not having a beat /= not having a rhythm!

Isn't it a valid point to mention that the music which most people assume is 'black music' - and most people think of hip-hop and R&B here - actually contains too many non-black practitioners for that label to make much sense? You can't look at Eminem, Justin, Princess Superstar, J-Lo seriously and say they make black music.

I'm with the Lex here, this comment is the single most stupid thing I've ever seen on ILX.
Have you ever heard _any_ clasical music ever?

I think the fact that Zappa was an Italian-American is very interesting - even more interesting is the fact that he never really referenced it in his work

You'd think, but I quite often whistle thrash metal to myself so if he can hum u some gabba I'll let him off that one.

As for the classical, can anyone identify this from the ryhthm alone?

Da, da, da, daaaa!

Roland Kirk had a theory about jazz & rock music, that jazz was the rhythmic and spiritual musical instincts of African-descended Americans coming into contact with the scales, modes, motifs and whatnot of European classical music, and that rock music was those same emphasis-on-harmony-and-melody instincts of Euro/Anglo-descended Americans integrating these new-to-them rhythmic-to-the-point-of-sexual elements the African-descended folks brought to this continent with them.

I guess what I'm saying is that, although yes the terms are very appropriate in relation to the communities in which the style was discovered, it's not like white/black music styles have grown entirely independent of each other. I think there's been a great deal more cross-cultural influence in music (esp. American music) than most people give credit for.

Da, da, da, daaaa!

Beethoven Symphony #5.

-- Dan Perry (djperr...), September 23rd, 2003.

Where do I send your prize?

(It's a conductor's baton, for dictating the rhythm (etc) made from chocolate)

As for the classical, can anyone identify this from the ryhthm alone?

Da, da, da, daaaa!

Beethoven Symphony #5.

-- Dan Perry (djperr...) (webmail), September 23rd, 2003. (Dan Perry)

Correction Dan, I think you'll find that's a Trio song with an extr Daaa on it - your cd may be jumping, or a Russian may be expressing approval.

People are now back to discussing 'black' music again and still no one has definitively said what it is!

that was in my first post to this thread. I don't think it's a perfect definition, so if you disagree with it or think something needs to be added to it, I'm all ears. (eyes?)

peace

-- nickalicious (nza2342...), September 23rd, 2003.

Which means blues, rock and roll and hip hop aren't black, cause they come froom the USA where black people are a minority?

-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003 4:20 AM. (simon_tr) (link)

several years on this is still the most amusing thing i have ever read on ilx