Defend the Indefensible: Nick Drake

(translation: wtf with this thread?)

sometimes the string arrangements get in the way but they can be very gorgeous at times ("hazy jane 1"). he was not afraid to experiment, even if it did mean falling flat ("poor boy").

concentrating on the richness of bryter layter and the stark desolation of pink moon alone, i find very few faults/missteps on these two records. and he was certainly better than 80% of the accoustic folk rock at the time. his first album is my least favorite; however, it must have caught the ears of both richard thompson and john cale who play on his second record... and their opinions/respect is worth more to me than anyone on ILM frankly.

tunage = open mic night snoozefest. intricate fingerpicking + really inventive tunings = noodling.

voice = a sustained exercise in counterfeit timidity

he did have good suits.

I'm not sure he fits into the "Defend the Indefensible" category. That's more for people like, ummm...., the Fixx or Sugar Ray or Raffi, Master of the Pan Flute. You may not like Nick Drake, but there's an awful lot of people who do (and not in a "guilty pleasure" sort've way that caters to "Defend the Indefensible" threads).

I've been noticing a lot of Drake-hatred here lately (well, this thread and Chuck Eddy, who believes mop-head metal also-rans Kix are more tuneful than the late Mr.Drake). Personally, while his is definetely 'mood music' (if you're not in the mood for it, you'd best steer well clear of it), I find it pretty strikingly emotive, atmospheric and quite lovely. I can't understand what people could find to hate about it. I can see people tiring of cult of prescient doom that has sprung up around Drake, but I believe his music would still be quite moving even if he hadn't prematurely shuffled off this mortal coil (though that fact does make tracks like "Black Eyed Dog" that much more chilling).

His guitar playing was quite interesting too.

So basically, no one's made a defense in terms you would accept.

and how is pointing out the "gigantic fan bases/undeniable influence/inherent longevity/etc." of Sugar Ray any different than pointing out the "gigantic fan bases/undeniable influence/inherent longevity/etc." of nick drake?

Besides the fact that Nick Drake's stuff has been around longer than Sugar Ray's there isn't any difference. I'm not sure what you're trying to catch me on here, especially since I wasn't the one who used Sugar Ray as a DtD candidate.

The point is that if there's general critical acclaim for an artist (as there is for BOTH Sugar Ray and Nick Drake), they are not good candidates for a DtD thread because there's already a defense that everyone knows about. The entire premise is "Most people think this musician/band suck(s); tell me why most people are wrong." How does Nick Drake fit into that?

it's not that i don't accept it, it's just that I'm sure people have more to point to than his guitartistry & general well-likedness (& in fairness some people have pointed out lyrics and instrumental breaks & mood stuff that they like - which makes more sense to me)

The entire premise is "Most people think this musician/band suck(s); tell me why most people are wrong." How does Nick Drake fit into that?

fine, how is: 'I think he sucks, tell me why I'm wrong' then? am i allowed to ask that?

since when is general consensus & 'we hold these truths to be self-evident' logic such an important factor to take into consideration on ILM?

*the defense will now take a 15minute coffee break

- He didn't allow Chris DeBerg to be in his band in high school. Thanks fucking god.

No.

since when is general consensus & 'we hold these truths to be self-evident' logic such an important factor to take into consideration on ILM?

Ignoring the fact that the entire point behind these threads is to go against general consensus, have you not read any ILM posts in the past 18 months?

It's not an important factor to consider in the context of ILM per se, only in the context of a Defend the Indefensible thread. Maybe you should have worded the thread title differently. In any case, his music is lovely.

If you hate Nick Drake, you hate little Baby Jesus.

For my part, I'd first been exposed to Drake through mp3s (Pink Moon came first), which lead to burning a copy of Way Beyond Blue off of friends. The first thing that struck me about his music was that the melodies are soothing to the ear and the nerves after a rough day. The second thing was that his lyrics spoke of pain and loss long before it became fashionable to be a solo songwriter.

Great Nick Drake songs: Road, Which Will, Northern Sky. WTF is up with this thread? He doesn't need to be defended, he's one of the greats, even without going into the guitar playing.

Zuh?

There was no counterfeit timidity about Nick Drake, he was painfully shy and withdrawn according to all accounts. His sister said he had a skin too few (hence the title of a biography). So no counterfeitedness about his timidity at all. Furthermore I've heard recordings of his voice and that's what he sounds like, he has a very posh, gentle, fey accent.

So there's a start of a defence. At least a knocking down of one teh straw men raised.

Yeah, right

His best album, I'd say, is easily Bryter Layter because the sad/beautiful characteristics within both the lyrics and the music are strongest and most pronounced there. "What will happen in the morning when the world it gets so crowded that you can't look out the window in the morning?" is one of my favorite lyrics ever, though perhaps it sounds a bit silly on paper.

sorry people feel that way - but i am in fact interested in just that... and lots of people have done so with panache.

i can tell people are irked, but i still think its a worthwhile discussion to have. "good taste" is subjective anyway so I don't see how 'indefensible' is more offensive when applied to card-carrying canon-fodder than it is to artists that are generally seen as having no worth.

i first heard of nick drake when i was listening to one of sebadoh's first two albums and there is a very distant sample of nick drake (i think it is "river man") on one of the tape collage pieces and my ultra-musichead friend says... "oh that's a nick drake sample" and he named the song and the album. that piqued my curiosity but i had never saw any of nick drakes records in the shops. later that year, sebadoh released an ep in the UK with that neat cover of "pink moon" and then the 12"x12"x1" fruit tree box showed up within a year on Hannibal which i picked up immediately.

I have no opinion one way or the other on Nick Drake beyond liking "Pink Moon" but preferring the Walt Mink version.

Is Nick Drake the best-known 'cult' artist of all time?

http://home.earthlink.net/~rfrederick/nick1.jpeg

Heaven's a non-profit establishment?

Someone mentioned 'counterfeit timidity' and someone else counter-claimed that it was genuine. I'd second the counter. Drake was utterly disabled by his shyness. He couldn't perform on stage at all. It WAS like some open mic night bedroom player getting up under the lights and dying. So he fled back to the bedroom. Pink Moon (and the other songs, Black Eyed Dog and so on), where you get him with acoustic on his breast and that intimate sighing voice, is Nick at his best. I didn't much like him being fettered by the band and string arrangements baloney. He was most at home in an empty room with bare boards, as he was when Pink Moon was recorded in a weekend.

And the guitar sounds cool and stuff. As well as being perfectly unique. His picking was all his own. So shut your face Fritz. Or remove it from your fundament, at least. Stop preaching to your innards!

"I have always avoided outwardly romantic, sensitive men - from what I've seen, they turn out to be the cruellest of all"

Wounded elks speak in hushed tones?

http://mountainscenes.com/Images/Wildlife/Elk/WIL.407.15.V.ELK.jpg

Much love for Nick Drake, his voice is so comforting. And I like sad people, I admit it.

As a guitarist he played the guitar like a piano. His main musical influence aside from the blues strangely enough appears to be his mother. There is a recording I have of her singing some piece she wrote to the piano. And you can tell by the words and her how eerily similar her accent is to her son's, that she is Nick's mother.

Anyhow, it's interesting and quite powerful stuff to my ears. And if you're moved as well than so be it.

john cale
Anyone ever noticed that some mistypography on the credits of one the records creates a musician called John Cale Celeste?

thank you, that is one of the most idiotic things i've ever read on ILM.

sometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerchesometimes those swirls approach the genius of sondre lerche

Only sometimes.

intricate fingerpicking + really inventive tunings = noodling.

loooooooooooooooool

do you also refer to Beethoven's 5th as an "epic jam session"

worst fucking thread title ever.

Drake was awesome.

or Raffi, Master of the Pan Flute

i have big problems with this thread.

ned do you have a verdict?

Yeah really wtf, Drake is amazing.

His guitar is so good.

ned do you have a verdict?

Check the AMG. (Seriously.)

BEST AMG TRACK RECORD EVER

Yay wonderful me.

What do you mean?

OH SHIT!!!

off-topic, but what's the deal with r. unterberger? altho our tastes have a lot in common, dude is one nitpicky m-fucker.

He's just him.

he's so unterberger

had to work that b&s dig in there tsk tsk. nice reviews otherwise

lolol

Hooray!

I am fascinated with the idea of the "hushed tones of a wounded elk"

did not expect to lol reading a nick drake thread.

thank you ilm.

He's sure as hell no Napalm Death.

― christoff (christoff), Wednesday, October 1, 2003 11:04 AM (7 years ago)

today is a day where I'm very much feeling "One of These Things First"

god, "Northern Sky" with its dreamy quality and those lyrics.....could spin this on repeat all day today.

I'm more of a Five Leaves Left guy but this is my fav tune on Bryter.

oh god that instrumental bridge with the organ and piano....omfg

"Things Behind the Sun", god the quiet of that tune, those chord progressions.

you can hear the anguish in his music. sometimes almost feels guilty for making me draw pleasure from it.

if he'd been around now, this guy'd probably have a following, but the labels mighta ruined him.

love Nick Drake & hate everyone who copies him

would like to see a Venn diagram of ppl who love Nick Drake and ppl who think it doesn't matter if you kick ass at yr instrument or not

"cello song" has one of the most impressive guitar lines in an era when it was still cool to know how to play an instrument. just absolutely stunning

JCLC otm

His right thumb on "Road" is like something inhuman

I always wanted to learn River Man as its slightly less manic, picking-wise, but th as that's one where the rhythm is the challenge.

boy the first 20 to 40 posts in this thread are a super fun read

I always wanted to learn River Man as its slightly less manic, picking-wise, but th as that's one where the rhythm is the challenge.

You should try it as it's definitely doable, and that's coming from a rather mediocre guitar player. The guitar part itself isn't too hard, singing over that rhythm is another story but I'm 80% there I think. It kinda does my head in after a while though.

He was a singular force on the guitar. I love his music although it's the sort of thing that I want in limited doses. And I'd guess that his revival in the 90s with that Volkswagen commercial probably has a lot to do with why Bon Iver and a million lesser Bon Ivers exist. But no fault of his.

yeah even though drake's voice could be characterized as wispy, the super-structured guitar work kinda works in contrast to that, which I think a lot of his followers miss.

stripped down nick drake is my favorite nick drake... pink moon/peel session/demos/etc. probably because i just love hearing his guitar so much

the fact he tracked most of his stuff guitar & vox live at the same time is so amazing

sorta surprised that peel session release didn't get more buzz -- think it might be the best "unreleased" thing that's come out! and probably the closest to hearing what a live nick drake gig would've sounded like.

Probably because it was priced insanely.

haha, well yeah, but it's on youtube and available through illicit channels. wonder if they will release it in a more sensible format...

some of it is on spotify (i guess i don't know how many track there are)

I never knew he'd done any Peel sessions.

oh lol it's on amazon mp3 for $5
worth it!

xp there had been a lo-fi snippet of it floating around for a while, but they found a much better source and put it out as an EP along w/ a really expensive book.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WY61R32?ie=UTF8&keywords=nick%20drake&qid=1453400663&ref_=sr_1_8&refinements=p_n_feature_browse-bin%3A625150011&s=dmusic&sr=1-8

OnkyoMusic/SevenDigital has it available as FLAC downloads as well, if FLAC is your thing. They're delightfully fuzzy versions, I love them.

it's kind of embarrassing to admit that i actually was slightly obsessed with nick drake a really long time ago. in retrospect, it probably wasn't a good thing, because a big part of the music i was writing at that time ended up sounding like his stuff. and i never did like the "copycats"; e.g., bon iver, etc. i don't see them as copycats, though, because their music always felt different.

are the peel session tracks that different from the stuff on time of no reply and made to love magic?

there's a flute on cello song.

I just wish he'd lived long enough to do the music for the Watership Down movie.

what's embarrassing about that

Three of the Peel session tracks are previously unreleased, yes. Cello Song, Bryter Layter, and River Man. The other two have turned up on bootlegs and possibly compilations before?

don't think they were ever officially released ever before, and the things on bootlegs were fragmentary and in cruddier sound quality iirc...

i have time of no reply and made to love magic, and i thought river man and cello song were on there, but i could be wrong. i've not listened to them in ages

i just listened to the peel session tracks. i hadn't realised it was more of a collector's item.

lovely hearing the music either way, though

yeah, not on either of those previous comps (though river man is pretty similar on made to love magic).

yeah, like you say, the biggest difference is the flute on cello song. possibly the best track on there? i guess i'll play some nd while i work now!

Amira, Queen of Creativity (upper mississippi sh@kedown)
Posted: January 20, 2016 at 4:59:09 PM
the fact he tracked most of his stuff guitar & vox live at the same time is so amazing

River man was recorded guitar and vox AND string orchestra live at the same time!

the only circulating peel stuff before this release was a 4 minute off-air excerpt with a minute of "time of no reply" and a couple minutes of "three hours".

there's a piece in a recent paris review that deals w/ nick by brian cullman

I tried to tell Nick how much I liked his album. It was later that week, we were in the kitchen at John and Beverly's, drinking tea, and there was silence everywhere. I mentioned a few songs, "Cello Song" and "River Man" and "Saturday Sun," and he nodded and stared at the table. After a few minutes, he started fumbling through his coat pockets. There was a smell of mint and tobacco, maybe cloves, and he was pulling out scraps of paper, guitar picks, rolling papers, and such. He looked up.
"Do you like chocolate?" he asked. He held an unopened bar of Cadbury's Dairy Milk Chocolate.

My performance at Cousins was forgettable. Nick's was memorable mostly for its awkwardness. Sitting on a small wooden chair, the kind favored in most third grade classrooms, he seemed to shrink, to recede further and further away from the microphone, as if we were all looking through the wrong end of a telescope. He hunched over a small mahogany guitar, a parlor guitar, and began fingerpicking with the ease and elegance and grace of the playing on his album, though he pulled the guitar tightly into himself, hugging it as he played, and the sound was distant and muffled and indistinct, as if he'd found a way to get up and walk out into the hallway and close the door on us while he sat there on the stage.
He began singing "Thoughts of Mary Jane," and you could hear the sound of the buttons on his jacket hitting the guitar, the sound of the chair creaking, and midway through, just as it seemed like he was getting warmed up and settling into the performance, he changed directions, changed songs. No one could tell if he'd forgotten the chords or lost the words or simply grown bored and decided to move on. He settled into a rolling guitar figure, beautiful and stuttered and strangely uplifting, and he began singing the opening lines to a new song, new to me at least:
Do you curse where you come from?
Do you swear in the night?
And then he would look away, even further away, and begin the pattern once again and continue the same words until they sprawled into a chant, slurred and strange and hypnotic:
Do you curse where you come from?
Do you swear in the night?
The words seemed a challenge, a prayer and a whispered threat all at once, a quiet British voodoo sung to an unseen moon and an all-too-present dark:
Do you curse where you come from?
Do you swear in the night?
You couldn't watch. But you couldn't look away. And then it was over. I don't remember if there was any applause, but I know that there were no celebratory drinks, there was no after party; the audience simply drifted off into their own version of the night.

jeepers

anybody read the new bio?

I buy these rolls of bags to collect my dog’s dogshit. When I get toward the end of the roll there’s a “three bags left” warning

! had no idea there was one

Nick Drake: The Life is the only biography of Nick to be written with the blessing and involvement of his sister and estate. Drawing on copious original research and new interviews with his family, friends, and musical collaborators, as well as deeply personal archive material unavailable to previous writers—including his father’s diaries, his essays, and private correspondence—this is the most comprehensive and authoritative account possible of Nick’s short and enigmatic life.

i'm sold. i was just listening to Five Leaves Left last week.

Also cited: his father’s diarrhea

the fuck?

Inspiration can come from anywhere.

Day Is Done... and so is my digestive system

Pink Moon

Time at the Urologist’s Has Told Me

Man in a shed

Black-Eyed Bog

Things Behind Yer Mum

River Man

Five Leaves (Of Bog Roll) Left

fantastic work everybody, we can be proud today

keeping in spirit with the horrible first post of the thread and indeed, the absurd notion that Nick Drake is in any way indefensible.

brilliant cover here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wc2eBue0SU

Flávio Tris - From The Morning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTPBGXJ4HWA

https://superdeluxeedition.com/news/nick-drake-the-making-of-five-leaves-left

Not much difference in price (CDs vs vinyl set). Interesting.

I never seen the attraction in masses of alternative takes tbh.

Same

Especially when they are all sandwiched into the main sequencing and not left for later

Geez, I was sure this was revived in advance of tonight's pink moon.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/12/science/full-pink-moon-april/index.html

Pink, pink, pink, pink, pink micromoon

I've been on a Nick Drake outtake spree lately so hyped for this (though I may be familiar with all of it)

such a perfect but frustratingly small body of work

I wish I hadn’t exhausted Five Leaves Left by overlistening to it as a teenager, but ah well. I think Pink Moon is the one for me now I’m much older — it’s so unvarnished and direct. What a crazy thing to have come from a 25 year old.

I did love the nineties Time of No Reply compilation too — I have a hard time thinking of those songs outside of that specific track order.

Speaking of which - I love Three Hours but I’ve always thought its positioning so early in the album is a bit of a bummer. It has very Penultimate Track vibes.

Having said that - the nerve of putting Way to Blue and Day is Done next to each other. Intense! I still remember first hearing them together over thirty years ago and thinking, bloody hell.

Frankly weird review of The Making of 5LL at p4k - claiming the original album is overstuffed, and that the orchestrations are over-egging it and completely unnecessary. For me that describes much of Bryter Layter but I love Kirby's orchestral drama on 5LL, and find it a perfect counterpoint to the songs. As did Nick. I find the early sketches very interesting but ultimately incomplete.
One thing that has always bugged me is the (now canonical) 2000 remaster sounds distorted on the vocals on many tracks, particularly "River Man". Anyone else hear this?

the original album is overstuffed, and that the orchestrations are over-egging it and completely unnecessary

This was a common attitude back in the 90s; the Spin Alternative Guide of 1995 suggests that "low-fi purists" stay away from the first two records which "may prove too lush for ears raised on alternative rock" and that Joe Boyd agreed to the "arcane" arrangements to try to sell records. Then Nick saw the (Pink Moon)light and became the proto-Cat Power they all hoped he could be.

a sensitive soul who didn’t yet possess the ability or desire to say no

Pitchfork, this just isn't so. He rejected (rightly) the first arranger that Joe Boyd brought in and worked with Kirby very closely on the arrangements. That said, I never thought that the strings worked well on "Way to Blue", was glad to hear the piano demo released a few years ago.

My copy of Fruit Tree is from the 90s and sounds fine.

Townes Van Zandt has been treated the same way. I know that those early albums weren't necessarily representative of how he played music, but I love them. Listen to Live At The Old Quarter if you want to hear just him and a guitar.

Makes me think of Nico and her wish for a de-flute button on stereos.

The recetn Andrew Hickey podcast about Nick Drake says that claims that he was unhappy with the arrangements on FLL are unfounded, and that he was very much happy and responsible for making them happen.

I also love the arrangements on Bryter Layter - it's my favourite of all of them.

I can't really fault any of the arrangements on those two albums. Also, regardless of whether he was keen on them or not, I'm a bit of a sucker for 'overproduced'-at-the-expense-of-the-artist's-vision-or-what-the-fans-thought-the-vision-was type records - I've never really considered Nick's first two among that category but the first TVZ is a classic of it.

I mean, the album took 13 months from demos to completion, and it wasn't because Joe Boyd didn't know how to make a record. He was helping Drake find what he was looking for.

Indeed, when Kirby couldn't find his way into "River Man", it was brought to Harry Robinson, who was able to provide exactly what Drake wanted, an arrangement in the style of Delius.

And thus becoming imo one of Robinson's two most showstopping arrangements of the 60s, alongside Kenny Lynch's Puff (Up in Smoke)

He was a fan of the Fifth Dimension and Jim Webb.

reading Harry Robinson's wiki page is a trip, is it him saying "There's a moose loose aboot this hoose"?

I'm of the opinion that Five Leaves Left features three of Nick's best songs ("Three Hours", "River Man", "Cello Song") and the rest is mostly "a bunch of songs that are pretty amazing when you consider they're written by a teenager". I also think 5LL features his finest guitar performances? personally? I kinda can't get over how amazing "Three Hours" is. But it is (by far) his weakest album. It's still miles better than, idk, Tim Buckley's debut, or Joni Mitchell's debut.

I don't think stripping the arrangements off the songs strengthens them, I think it further reveals the fact that Nick was still developing as a songwriter-- the arrangements were generally effective at dressing up these songs. Listening to the first two discs of "The Making Of..." today, I was struck by how much weaker these songs were without being realised by Boyd's production. ("Strange Face/Cello Song" is amazing any way you present it.)

What I dislike about 5LL, more than any thoughts about the songs, is the mix. These arrangements consistently dominate everything, Nick's voice gets lost all the time. Everything sounds well-recorded but so strangely mixed, all the muscle is in the supplemental players, not the singer/guitarist. I don't find Richard Thompson's guitar to be intrusive or the congas to be "hysterical" or whatever nasty adjective Grayson used in his write-up.

I do find myself wondering why it is that Nick Drake occupies this particular place of rarity when so many other UK and Irish folk singers from the same era have equally rich (and far broader) bodies of work. It's probably the legend of his life and his young death. I just feel grateful that there are so many Christy Moore albums, so many Paul Brady albums I can listen to. A bunch of great Roy Harper albums. I felt relieved putting Christy Moore on today after listening to four versions of Nick doing "Day Is Done".

fgti OTM, I could never get into FLL outside of 3-4 songs.

that said i think River Man is amazing, one of the most stunning chord progressions and really amazing to play. top 5 ND song for me.

It's my favourite Nick Drake abum.

I do find myself wondering why it is that Nick Drake occupies this particular place of rarity when so many other UK and Irish folk singers from the same era have equally rich (and far broader) bodies of work. It's probably the legend of his life and his young death.

his voice, his guitar playing, his songs.

I do find myself wondering why it is that Nick Drake occupies this particular place of rarity when so many other UK and Irish folk singers from the same era have equally rich (and far broader) bodies of work. It's probably the legend of his life and his young death.

I do find myself wondering why it is that Nick Drake occupies this particular place of rarity when so many other UK and Irish folk singers from the same era have equally rich (and far broader) bodies of work. It's probably the legend of his life and his young death.

his voice, his guitar playing, his songs.

Basically this. But also, there's a mood that's different to other artists working in broadly the same area. It may be an outlook on life that particularly chimes with me and comes through in the songs.

I like other artists as well, but not unreservedly. There's absolutely nothing I dislike about him. I really like Sandy Denny, for example, but sometimes I find her voice irritating, and I even dislike quite a few of her songs.

On the other hand, if he had lived longer and carried on making music, it's quite possible he would have got worse, so for me it's not about any romance or legend of him dying young, but dying young meant there was no decline.

There's no influence from UK/Irish traditional music that I can hear in his music, that's one major difference. He's a singer songwriter who plays acoustic guitar, not a folk singer this side of the pond.

FGTI OTM. I agree that 'Cello Song is one of the songs that benefits from the more stripped-down approach

yes, and Sandy Denny, Fairport etc are something I really want to like but I just can't get into her voice even though she's technically a fantastic singer. Nick's voice is extremely pleasant and unaffected, none of that folksy fiddle-dee-deeing that even Richard Thompson was wont to stray into

Indeed. It took John Martyn two or three albums to shake off the folk-singer-thing and find his groove, that wider sound, that ND has already on FLL.

There's no influence from UK/Irish traditional music that I can hear in his music, that's one major difference.

I guess that's true. Certainly, you don't hear that accent some of the singers (e.g. Sandy Denny) put on (as mentioned above). I meant broadly in the same area in the sense of it being acoustic, and 'folk'-based in the loosest sense. Not sure musically, though. Would you say there's literally no trace of UK/Irish traditional music in any of it? He must certainly have been aware of and exposed to that music, and at least to some degree from an early age. I heard an unaccompanied version of 'The Oak and the Ash' by his mother, Molly Drake. I believe that was recorded in either the 1950s or 1960s. I suppose he may have heard plenty of things like that, but what came out the other end somehow avoided sounding obviously similar or related.

I'm not a big lyrics guy, so if I'm missing something glaring feel free to disagree. But when people talk about what a gloomy depressing album Pink Moon is, I struggle to hear it. I mean, knowing what was to come, you can read a lot into his lyrics, and I guess "I am a parasite" isn't the jolliest thing to sing, but there are quotes from people saying that his songwriting at the time transcended mere melancholy and reflected the unhinged and abysmal thoughts of someone who was desperately unwell. No matter how, I can't help hearing all of his music as having a hopeful sort of turn to it. Everything tends to resolve itself, like sun coming through the window after a long dark night.

Would you say there's literally no trace of UK/Irish traditional music in any of it? He must certainly have been aware of and exposed to that music, and at least to some degree from an early age.

That doesn't seem like his background at all. Unless it was Peter Pears singing some Percy Grainger or Vaughan Williams settings of English folk songs I can't imagine him being exposed to much traditional music when he was growing up.

I know he was into Donovan and I could imagine him listening to Bert Jansch and John Renbourn for the guitar playing at least. In fact, Pentangle seems like good point of comparison but minus their more trad. arr. elements.

He didn't come out of a folk club background, which is different from Roy Harper, John Martyn, Sandy Denny, Al Stewart etc., not to mention obvious folkies like Jansch, Renbourn, ISB. He was from a different millieu.

TIL nick drake was born in rangoon, to me that's preposterous

But when people talk about what a gloomy depressing album Pink Moon is, I struggle to hear it.

I don't find it gloomy or depressing at all. But then again I just enjoy melancholy. I don't mean superficially. I can feel genuinely, deeply sad, to the point of tears, yet at the same moment get satisfaction, enjoyment or a sense of beauty. Like there's a truth to it, with no pretense. Of course, I do like seeing the sun come up, but I like nightfall just as much. I wouldn't say more, just equally.

But with the song 'Pink Moon', it's nothing to do with melancholy or sadness about things coming to an end. It's anger and grim satisfaction. I like how he seems to be basically saying, all you people I hate, how about this, you are just going to get wiped out, so fuck you.

Always thought FLL sounded more like Sweetheart of the Rodeo style country rock than UK folk music, maybe something to do with Joe Boyd.

TIL nick drake was born in rangoon, to me that's preposterous

Surely not at all uncommon with people of a certain class in the Empire period? Admittedly, despite being aware of this, because you see it mentioned all the time on tombs and gravestones, and Orwell was born there and so on, I've never really thought about what the numbers were: the actual figures for British people who settled in the colonies.

Pink Moon would be a good theme for a sensitive gay werewolf movie.

he seems to be basically saying, all you people I hate, how about this, you are just going to get wiped out, so fuck you

Drake was a chill dude, and I've never heard it as having a vengeful intent, I have to say. To me it reads as a memento mori, like T.S. Eliot's "O you who turn the wheel and look to windward / Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you".

I've never heard it as having a vengeful intent

Maybe that's just my interpretation. I'm conflating two things that I've read. One, that he was angry with Joe Boyd, and possibly other people, and two, that he genuinely believed an asteroid or some other heavenly body was going to come out of nowhere and hit the Earth, and in the near future. I suppose 'None of you stand so tall, pink moon gonna get you all' could, as you say, be read as more reflective than vengeful. But to me, the way it's worded, and the way he sings it, it does sound rather like he's pleased that they're going to be wiped out.

And that's a valid take on it, for sure. I've read all three of the biographies that have been published, and what I gleaned is that whatever anger he was feeling by the time of Pink Moon was mainly directed inwards. "Parasite" seems to me the most obvious expression of it.

Cliff Richard another baby born to parents serving the British Empire. Lucknow, India in his case.

sad to see my silly stephen a. smith joek is being treated with an earnestness i rarely deserve

Sorry, I didn't get the joke and I still don't know what you're referring to.

xps I would be pushed to find a sadder song than “Place to Be”, it absolutely rends me.

thats ok

Sorry, that may have sounded rude, like I was saying I knew all along it was a joke but chose to deliberately disregard your intent. What I meant was I didn't realise it was a joke, and now that I know it's a joke, I still don't get it. I've never heard of Stephen A. Smith. Again, that's just a statement of fact. Rangoon is just a place I've heard of but know nothing about.

Always thought FLL sounded more like Sweetheart of the Rodeo style country rock than UK folk music, maybe something to do with Joe Boyd.

I don't hear a single element of this anywhere on the record, unless it's Richard Thompson's electric guitar on the first song.

Pink Moon would be a good theme for a sensitive gay werewolf movie.

― Proust Ian Rush (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, August 14, 2025 11:29 AM (four days ago) bookmarkflaglink

explains why i drove around listening to it on repeat in my 20s.

Ah I missed all this Nick Talk because I was driving 17 hours all the while it was being had

As unimpeachable as Pink Moon and the songs on it truly are, I oddly think Nick’s greatest achievement is “Hazey Jane II”, nobody has written as tumbly a melody before or since— “Northern Sky” and its entire mood, Belle & Sebastian owe their entire early career to these two songs imo (not derogatory)

I’m gonna converse with my guitar teacher (also a Nick fanatic) about other sources and references, she was ground zero in England when this all was coming out

What I meant was I didn't realise it was a joke, and now that I know it's a joke, I still don't get it. I've never heard of Stephen A. Smith. Again, that's just a statement of fact. Rangoon is just a place I've heard of but know nothing about.

it's ok not to be aware of things of that nature. this is a nick drake thread, after all.

I’m gonna converse with my guitar teacher (also a Nick fanatic) about other sources and references, she was ground zero in England when this all was coming out

― you have to be avant-garde and stupid at the same (flamboyant goon tie included)

same

I oddly think Nick’s greatest achievement is “Hazey Jane II”

Yes. This is my favourite ND song. One of my favourite songs of all time. It's kind of silly, these really really long and wordy sung phrases that start one way and then deteriorate into, well, something close to blethering about weasels. I love it. I also love the horns. Belle And Sebastian absolutely. I'm surprised I've never heard them cover it.

I texted my guitar teacher. She's 70 now, we used to gig together 25 years ago, me on violin and her on guitar and singing, she sings like Sandy Denny, we'd just play pubs and stuff like that, but had some proper concerts as well. I asked her over text why Nick Drake was more resonant/popular than his contemporaries. Her immediate response was "27 Club?" I texted back "he was 26 when he died, even." She texted "People are drawn to tragedy?" And then "feminine quality". And then "very original". I asked her who an equivalent to Nick Drake would be, and she immediately replied "Judy Sill (sic)". I said "totally" and then typed about how Judee has the strangest singing voice, like she's always eating peaches as she's singing and my teacher said "yes", and then she called me on Facebook video.

She's up in Northern Ontario now. She was happy to hear I'd moved to Vancouver ("Toronto has been a shitty place for so many years"). According to teacher, Nick really had this original way of marrying vocal melody to guitar arrangement. "Most people who can play guitar, they just wank around. I don't want to listen to people wanking." She said, "Nick writes melancholic sad songs. Not like the Planxty guys you like. Those Planxty guys are amazing but they're seanchai. They're these Irish guys going around telling stories. Nick writes sad songs and it makes people happy to hear sad songs. There really weren't many other people like him."

She said, "if you go back and listen to that Family Tree album, you can hear Nick playing all these blues songs. Those are hard to play. Nick wasn't mucking around, he was a great player." We talked about "Hazey Jane II" and "Northern Sky", that Nick could just write these pure sad-pop songs without the dazzling guitar work. We talked about which of the UK folk crew were good people and which ones were twats. "Davey Graham was a sweetheart," she said, "I opened for him a few times and he was wonderful." I talked about the couple of times I met my personal fave [name redacted] and that he came off as a twat. "Most of those UK folkies are twats," she said, "it's what happens when you live in UK for too long, you turn into a twat."

lovely story, thanks for sharing

i am now listening to "hares on the mountain" - shirley collins and davy graham thanks to that story. sounds great to me!

That's a great story. As a fan of Judee Sill, I can hear the comparison: Both massively introverted nerds in posession of a preternatural musicality, a true knack for melody. Both were drug dependents who died young. Both had "interesting" but not unpleasant voices. Nick's was like very fine sandpaper, Judee's is pinched, fluid, nasal (lol at "like she's eating peaches"). Both could have been described as "folk" but really these were just acoustic songs and had very little to do with the folk tradition

Good point dog latin. I’ve always thought of Vashti as being similar to Nick but her songs come from a stable gorgeous place of plaintive optimism; almost certainly folk music.

yeah Vashti is folk fs

judee also has the redemptive mysticism. which i hear in drake too but it's a little more oblique. it's like he wanted to shrink it down to something very quiet and essential.

Sill's fingerpicking technique often sounds a lot like Drake's too, at least on the surface. I think she's a good comparison.

i am now listening to "hares on the mountain" - shirley collins and davy graham thanks to that story. sounds great to me!

― she freaks, she speaks (map), Monday, August 18, 2025 12:28 PM (twenty-eight minutes ago)

<3 one of my all-time favourite songs!

I've never listened to Sill, will remedy that today.

Thinking about the uniqueness of ND I thought of Vashti too (also produced by Joe Boyd), plus Anne Briggs The Time Has Come which is even more clearly in the UK folk tradition but something like "Tangled Man" feels like it's definitely in the same orbit, though perhaps more earthbound than Drake is.

Also I recommended a friend listen to Willie Wright's Telling the Truth and one of his first impressions was that it sounded like ND, which I thought was super interesting

Davey Graham, Judee Sill = heroin addicts. I don't know if that's significant. I did see Davey Graham live once and he was pretty much out of it on something or other.

I've never listened to Sill, will remedy that today.

you are in for a treat.

Oh man I wish I could listen to Sill for the first time again

apropos of everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4tSxbYhUwc

insert embeds of "song to the siren", "the hammond song" & "the porpoise song"

oh wow the Sill album (the debut) was incredible, thank you all!

<3

I’ve always thought of Vashti as being similar to Nick but her songs come from a stable gorgeous place of plaintive optimism; almost certainly folk music.

When I saw her interviewed in Edinburgh after her book was published she said she always resented being pigeonholed as folk. She thought of herself as a songwriter.

Hearing Sill's "Jesus was a Cross Maker" on the radio was one of maybe a half dozen times I had to pull the car over just to listen.

I was walking around listening to the album on my headphones, and on "Cross Maker" I felt a strong urge to sing along with the chorus even though it was the first time ever hearing it, an extremely unusual response for me

oh wow the Sill album (the debut) was incredible, thank you all!

― rob, Monday, 18 August 2025 20:35 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Don't sleep on Heart Food either - that one destroys me

will definitely do that once I've given the debut a few more listens!

"The Kiss" is her greatest song.

Big fan of "The Donor" too.

Nick Lowe lifted a bit of Jesus Was A Crossmaker’s chorus for What’s So Funny About Peace Love and Understanding, the “woah, woah” inbetween the repeated phrase.

I love Nick and Vashti but Judee is a whole ‘nother level for me. “The Donor” is just fuuuuuuuuucking hell wtf GIVE ME MORE OF THAT PLEASE

"The Kiss" is her greatest song.

― AI Jardine (Tom D.), Tuesday, August 19, 2025 3:45 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

this performance moves me tremendously every time i watch it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0feFedDW_iQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-YWVGJIHcs

Ya that’s the Judee video. I’ve played that song a couple times, it’s a 10/10 challenge— not only is the melody hopping up and down octave intervals like it’s nothing, but you have to gently attend to the tempo and keep it exactly right— too fast and the words get crowded, too slow and you won’t have the lung capacity to sing it right.

I love how she pronounces ‘whisper’ and ‘where’ like a schoolteacher

Also:

Stars bursting in the sky
Hear the sad nova’s dying cry
Shimmering melody, come and hold me
While you show me how to fly

^ this lyric marks the end of the earth in terms of my personal tolerance for Laurel Canyon hippie bullshit— it’s beautiful but it’s one crystal vision away from being a groaner

Listening to the Turtles' version of "Lady-O", I can't help but think it's a pity Howard Kaylan ended up wasting his time singing for Zappa shortly after it.

I found the Pitchfork review of the new stripped down version of Five Leaves kind of odd, was written from the perspective that seemed to suggest that it was widely considered overproduced (writer seemed to have a particular aversion to congas) but I never felt that way and I don't know anyone who did. To me, that was how the record was and how I fell in love with it.

Here is something beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsxeL-59GbM

xp yeah it was discussed upthread or in another drake thread but apparently... it was received 90s cool kid/rockist/record collector wisdom that 5ll was overproduced. p4k review my first exposure to this old school view

the judee sill song that crushes me the most is the home recording of emerald river dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVs4FRBZnRE

I’ve played (The Kiss) song a couple times, it’s a 10/10 challenge— not only is the melody hopping up and down octave intervals like it’s nothing, but you have to gently attend to the tempo and keep it exactly right— too fast and the words get crowded, too slow and you won’t have the lung capacity to sing it right.

Yup, I've tried covering it on the guitar and had exactly the same issue with the lyrics. Like you say, fgti, it feels so easy-breezy and gently sung but you get these syllable clusters that are so carefully placed you can get turned-round very quickly and ruin it.

this lyric marks the end of the earth in terms of my personal tolerance for Laurel Canyon hippie bullshit— it’s beautiful but it’s one crystal vision away from being a groaner

Yup. There's a distinct difference between Judee Sill's lyrics and those of her laziest close-comparison Joni Mitchell. While Joni wasn't averse to imagery, she was way too grounded to deign towards such quasi-religious flights of fancy.

Judee's writing is notably submissive, with no trace of the cynicism that steams out of Joni's work. There are no Coyotes in Judee Sill's songs - ('Soldier Of The Heart', 'My Man On Love', 'The Archetypal Man', 'The Vigilante', many more) describe an idealised and pedestalised man. These sound like love songs to a fictionalised partner - a rugged and intrepid figure with a strong paternal instinct.

It would be foolish to read too much into Sill's psyche based on her songwriting. But I wonder if this might explain a bit about how this mousy and bookish person could have been manipulated into a life of drugs, robbery and other crime.

Who knows. I just think it's interesting to hear such plainly-dressed and positive tributes to men (real or imagined) without a sceptical twist to the story.

I guess this is the Judee Sill thread now oh well. Poor Nick

Henceforth in my mind Nick Drake will always be Poor Nick. Based on this thread and talk about english folky types, I picked up a 3cd Sandy Denny set. Have only just started in and it’s good!

I think Bright Phoebus is my favorite thing in this vein. What other vaguely spooky english folk is out there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Fox

Comus possibly too spooky to be vaguely spooky?

There's a lot of spooky traditional songs out there tbf

I call this stuff wicker-man music but I may have picked that up somewhere or even here.

It happens a few times on Bright Phoebus. Drake’s “Parasite” does it. They don’t go into horror or goth territory but there’s a queasiness there, a feeling that there’s something awful just out of frame.

Henceforth in my mind Nick Drake will always be Poor Nick

His mother wrote a song called Poor Mum, in response to his Poor Boy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-UaQvsJWXw

there's something very unsettling about Comus

in the best possible way

Oh man, the fiddle breakdown bit on "First Utterance" is pretty good.

i'd never listened to Comus before. It's right up my street.

so good

so who's going to be the first itt to write some spicy Judee/Nick slashfic?

Ask the guy from Comus to do it

BTW if anyone reading this thread hasn't listened to Andrew Hickey's The History of Rock in 500 Songs podcast episodes about Nick Drake's "Fruit Tree" and Fairport Convention's "Who Knows Where The Time Goes", then go check them out now please

will never skip an opportunity to plug this book which is extremely relevant to the current discussion, one of my favorite music books ever

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/aug/07/electric-eden-folk-rob-young

i've had that sitting on my shelf for the best part of ten years. i'll dig it out

it really is a great book!

oddly enough, even though on paper I should love 'em, I've never really liked Comus — a little too theatrical for my taste?

It's a fascinating book that doesn't just start at the hippie era but goes back to the roots of English pastoralism. The stories about early 20th century composers and folklorists are as interesting as those from the 60s, and less familiar.

Joe Boyd's "White Bicycles" is another great book about this scene (and more)

I need to read that

xxpost there's a gothyness to comus for sure

I haven't heard Comus in years but I remember wondering why people call it folk when it's really just prog with a lot of acoustic instrumentation. I also remember thinking it was a bit like Family without the tunes and then I found out that their second album was actually produced by Roger Chapman!

Yes to the Boyd and Young books. Young, in particular, is pretty relentless in digging up and reviewing all manner of obscurities, and he covers lots of eldritch films and TV as well. David Keenan's *England's Hidden Reverse* explores similar-ish stuff, but instead of Drake and Sandy, it revolves around Coil and Current 93.

Ian Macdonald's essay on Nick Drake in *The People's Music* is great, too.

Stumbled across this old quote from Barney Hoskyns about Judee Sill earlier: "My contention is this: had she been male and as pretty as Nick Drake, Sill would now be as big a cult figure as St. Nick himself"

https://www.theguardian.com/observer/omm/story/0,13887,1369079,00.html