Did the guy who said he'd make the best of Aphex . . .

Completely no.

Aphex is best when he tries to make pop music, then when he tries to make diamond-hard techno, then when he seems like he's fallen asleep on the volume button.

don't have my cds with me, but those should keep you going till i get home and check.

As I said, "Come to Daddy EP" is full of joke tracks, and this is the jokiest of them all. But if you like self-indulgent experimental electro, why the hell not...

By the way, I had a party last saturday and some bloke offered to buy my copy of the aforementioned EP for six euros - I didn't have to hesitate for one second. Next morning, I bought a delicious pizza with the six euros. That's the best thing I've gotten out've Aphex Twin for years.

All the same, here are some more good Aphex Twin tracks:

Milkman
Tidy Turtle
Pancake Lizard
On
Nannou
Ageispolis
Pigeon Street
To Cure A Weakling Child
Fingerbib
Ventolin
Mt Saint Michel + St Micaels Mount
DMX Krew - You Can't Hide Your Love (Aphex Twin Hidden Love Mix)
Next Heap With

UNRELATED: "Come To Daddy" is one frightening fucking song (Aphex thereby spends four minutes accomplishing what Ozzy Osbourne has been trying to do for his entire shitty 30-year career, and that's scare the living crap out of the listener). I was listening to it earlier today, and that scream that he does is just intense, man.

Sam, I disagree - I think Analogue Bubblebath "5" is some of his best work.

Flim I can do without, although I used to quite like it.

Melphace 6 from Drukqs is my personal favourite RDJ tune ever.

Snrub, I agree- "Come to Daddy" is still terrifying! It's genuinely unhinged.

Richard D James isn't someone you can half-arsedly research via ILM recommendation, listening to a few supposedly best tracks (its different for everybody, so its ridiculous to approach it that way), reading his AMG bio and moving on, you have to listen to EVERYTHING. If you want to do it another way then you can fuck off, get me?

The starting point obviously is to listen to all of his LPs: Richard D James Album, ...I Care Because You Do, Selected Ambient Works 85-92, Selected Ambient Works Volume 2, Drukqs, 26 Remixes for Cash (thats the order i did, anyway).
Then after that you listen to his EPs, probably starting with the entire Analogue Bubblebath series, then Come to Daddy, Windowlicker, Q-Chastic, Xylem Tube, Donkey Rhubarb, AFX 1&2, On, On Remixes, Didgeridoo, Classics (containing Xylem Tube, The Aphex Twin EP, two Mescalim United remixes, a live Didgeridoo set and Analogue Bubblebath), and Singles. And I haven't even named all of them!

And of course, somewhere in there you fit his work under Polygon Window (Surfing on Sine Waves, anyone care to make commentary on this one? (Andrew, i'm talking to you)), Caustic Window, AFX, Gak etc etc

note 1: Its impossible, and unneccesary to correctly listen to his works chronologically, so don't try

note 2: http://www.discogs.com/artist/Aphex_Twin - good 'old discogs.com has a pretty good discography, but it doesn't have everything (but good enough unless you want to get REALLY fanatical)

note 3: A stupid, yet entertainingly funny quote from discogs.com : Anonymous - Sep 23, 2001
'The Jimi Hendrix of electronic music...except with a tank & a bank, & a lot of facial hair.'

Yea, so basically, don't treat it like any old dispossable shit you'll research and chuck in at the back of your musical knowledge and collection, for christs sake, you jus' gotta do it right!!

I say, fuck it!

The Windowlicker EP is my top recommendation, then Girl/Boy, then maybe Come To Daddy mini-album/long EP. But as I said, its that weird messed-up-mid-tempo-almost-*pop*-music stuff that I like the most, so that leads me more to his EPs I think.

In terms of a banging, jungly album, I'd try Richrad D James.

P.S. Don't dismiss Drukqs, its one of the best albums of the last few years, it just has a feeling that he's still got all his best songs sitting on his hard drive.

This "best of" I'm compiling ain't easy, I'll say that.

ruin listening to electronic music? bah is say, bah! Sorry for being a bit of a wank, but come on dude, I can go with accepting the life work of a genius as real art, i'm not afraid to admit that. And no, you don't need to know about the fact that he drives a tank or that he lives in a bank, or any other of the wacky stories of his life like the Lemonheads-remix thing, thats just for fun and for blatant fanaticism - listening to a few, perhaps several of his albums is not. All i was saying was that I think his work is so incredible that its probably worth checking it all out, and if not, then some substantial ammount of it. And no, you don't have to listen to all of his stuff to understand his vision, you're extrapolating unneccesarily, my friend.
If you don't want to accept the fact that his life work is real art, then fine, fuck it - listen to a few of his tracks, think 'oh my, that sound quite nice', then leave it and fuck off with your wak shit ;)

and yea, Andrew, i suppose your right,

That's exactly what I've done with Aphex. Also, that was what you could do with every electronic music producer before Aphex. But after him, the rockist star/artist cult has entered the realm of electronic music. Of course it isn't necessarily his fault, but he's the emblem of this process. You may call me an old-fashioned idealist, but I happen to like the pre-IDM idea of "it's all about the music and nothing about the artist". So all I need to know is "that track sounds quite nice", and nothing more.

(Grandpa Simpson voice) Back in 1992, it was the fashion of the times to put this CD on at home and share a spliff after a night of pure mentalism jumping up and down to hoover noises (and, inevitably, Aphex's own 'Digeridoo', which was a bit of a rave classic. I remember a confused squad of police shutting down a party to this track, completely and visibly bemused by the bizarreness of the music). If you didn't have 85-92, we didn't come to your house to chill out, simple as that.

This is probably why he is the biggest selling act on walk because it makes his music more accessible to rock-based fans

walk = warp

heheh - walk records. I was at work and my boss distracted me.

Anyway, I reckon SAW1 is highly overrated - only Heliosphan and Ageispolis manage to truly shine. the rest is okay, but admit it - it's boring and dated to anyone who wasn't into it at the time.

I agree with whoever said I Care Because You Do is his best album.

I just got it last year and I love it!

The Richard D James album is more happy, wacky, ultra-caffeinated beat seizures with bonky, funky video-game melodies zinging around the place. (Seriously- sometimes they're on a lead synth, but just as often the melody passes to the tuned drum hits or the unidentifiable chunks of noise)

Tuomas, it sounds like you're trying to enforce a model of listening and appreciation (or non-appreciation, if you will) just as much as Rob. It's one thing to be actually oblivious to facts about an artist's life and other work; it's another to be willfully oblivious and to glorify that sort of obliviousness. Just because you believe ignorance of these sorts of "rockist" (ooooh, dirty word) issues doesn't preclude enjoying the music just fine (a position I hold as well) doesn't mean that knowledge about them is a bad thing. Denying one premise doesn't require you to assert it's direct opposite. Listening dogmas of all types create blinders, and anti-rockist "non-dogma" is no exception.

Again, if you like ironic, post-modern music, you'll probably have nothing against IDM. But for me, irony and distance in instrumental music very rarely work, since instrumental music is probably the purest way of getting an emotional or an physical response, and it works best when it's simply emotional and/or physical (i.e. it makes you wanna dance). Any ironic/intellectual filter in a track lessens that effect, and usually makes me dislike it.

Also, I'm not judging Aphex Twin's whole work here; I haven't really listened to SAW I or II, but from what I've heard they're mainly irony-free, no?

But surely a faceless music-maker is even less endearing than someone who enjoys being a bit of a popstar. Half the appeal of Aphex is that he goes about in silly masks, prattles about with different styles and takes the piss with silly noises. It's a big laugh and an original take on the ethos of the rock'n'roll star.
Also, it is only Aphex who I can think of who lets his ego become as big as his music. Most other Warp artists - Plaid, Autechre, Chris Clark, Squarepusher are not keen on the limelight nor of making any big stylistic statements. The only other band who make a song and dance out of their music is Boards of Canada - and it would be a shame if they didn't...

Last week in the Irish Times for example there was a Luke Vibert review beside an Agoria review. The Vibert review basically said "this is on warp, dance musics most inventive label, therefore it is great." and the Agoria review said "this is tinny" and then slated Laurent Garnier in the process. I would bet a large sum of money the reviewer has never even heard Laurent Garnier and has heard fuck all Warp either.

But then who needs to hear Warp when it's been referenced by Radiohead, it's officially ok to like it.

I have no problem with other supposedly more intelligent forms of dance music, deep house or detroit techno or acid trax or whatever, but the discourse surrounding Aphex and Warp just gets me every time. And has done for years, I've probably said this elsewhere on this board too so my apologies but it has to be said.

Agreed that other Warp artists may not seek this as much as Aphex, but nonetheless they are victims of it and it still discourages me from ever bothering with them.

Detroit techno is considered snooty and noodly and has a great deal of character and behind the scenes mystique a la Aphex/Warp, but I think it's hard to argue that it's ever become a distinct separate from the rest of dance music. Even if May etc would have wanted it to or still do.

I meant that, like Aphex, they have a look and a style and an ethos of their own which they play up to.

But surely a faceless music-maker is even less endearing than someone who enjoys being a bit of a popstar. Half the appeal of Aphex is that he goes about in silly masks, prattles about with different styles and takes the piss with silly noises. It's a big laugh and an original take on the ethos of the rock'n'roll star.

Erm, that was my point exactly. I dislike Aphex exactly because he's become a star, and because his "weird" personality has become as important as his music, and because he "takes the piss with silly noises" - which is exactly what makes his music distancing. Now you make like these qualities in an artist and his music, but I don't. For some reason those "faceless music-makers" still make more emotional and touching and important music than Mr. James. "Piss-taking" may be fun for a short while, but it certainly isn't the way to produce great music.

I meant that, like Aphex, they have a look and a style and an ethos of their own which they play up to.

Yeah, but their style and ethos is not that of post-modern irony and self-indulgence, which makes their music far more interesting than Aphex Twin's.

Well, what do you mean by ambient? SAW 85-92 isn't what I mean by ambient, just rather feeble and dreary electronic music. No beats whatsoever is a good idea for a start.

This is so OTM.

Yeah, but their style and ethos is not that of post-modern irony and self-indulgence, which makes their music far more interesting than Aphex Twin's.

You don't think BoC is self-indulgent or ironic? Okay, I see where you're coming from. I guess, for once, it's down to personal taste. I'm sure if you're a dance music lover you would hate Aphex because his style of music often makes fun of dance music by being undanceable. You would also not like him because of his rockstar posturings etc. However, I would disagree that all his music is like this as very often it can be very emotional/banging/interesting, so no it's not a big joke.
As I said upthread, I reckon Aphex is probably the best introduction to electronica for rock fans because of everything we've talked about.

i'd say a lot of the reason people have a problem with him is the idea that his music is "intelligent",but as far as i know he has never really gone along with it...
i mean,there is nothing to say all electronic,dance influenced music should be dance music,its just that certain idiots start making claims about the music which puts people off...i'd say if no one had ever called it idm it probably wouldn't bother people the way it does...

anyway,i do genuinely believe aphex twin to be an amazing musician,although it probably helps that his personality doesn't really enter into my opinion of him much
i think people will tolerate eccentricity/arrogance in people from other times/societies,hence lee perry doesn't really seem to annoy anyone,whereas aphex twin clearly does...

well what i mean by ambient is near quiet music, simpleton repetition, slowly paced keyboard workouts if you like.

his persona does come across as 'wacky' but he's only been able to show that side by giving interviews and he gets that many more interviews bcz his recs sell. they also happen to be mostly good-to-great.

'Windowlicker' was a great top 20 single.

Tuomas- the persona will be forgotten in a few years when he's gone away. I have seen docs on beefheart and then bits of Monk and their whole persona was quite strange but that will have little relevance for ppl listening to their music for the first time now.

Warp has been a good starting point for ppl to get into electronic music post-kraftwerk. Their profile got higher post-radiohead but even before that they were always admired pre-microhouse.

Robin is right though, it is a personal thing and a bit to do with the fans. Also I posted to this thread straight after reading that Agoria/Vibert disaster in the Irish Times.

I mean I have no problem with Detroit techno as I said, and I'm sure that probably annoys more people. But then as I said it is more perpetually cool and canonical, rather than a recent buzzlabel whose name out of touch and in touch but ignorant indie fans still just belch out when they are required to talk about electronic music.

I think alot of Warp stuff is enjoyed by that type of desperate indiekid who thinks if something sounds crap and is difficult it must be great and vice versa. I gave up on difficult stuff more or less a few years ago.

But yeah once again it's in the eye of the beholder, I increasingly don't find any techno difficult, even if it is quite obtuse. I do think it being made for the dj set makes it easier to like mind you.

well I did (if you mean big way= as in listening to it exclusively then no but I don't listen to just one thing and neither do most ILM posters as far as i can tell).

Listened to quite a bit of Aphex and some others on the label (even the terrible squarepusher), moved onto eno/kraftwerk, then microhouse, stopped listening for a year or two (to explore other 'stuff') got into 'academic' type electronic and concrete (i said electronic post-kraftwerk) and have started digging into microhouse comps again recently.

I know a couple of ppl who started from warp and got into stockhausen, say (no it isn't indie!).

I suspect that to the unintiated a lot of Warp stuff sounds like these producers going "check out these wacky sounds I can make!" When the reality is that a lot of these guys (Squarepusher in particular) really take their stuff quite seriously, and if you spend a bit of time with it I think you'll understand that.

That's the un-ironic lyric, obv.

But my complain was that persona shows through Mr. James' music. However weird Monk may have been, his music certainly isn't ironic and distancing and wacky. I have nothing against eccentric musicians as long as they put their heart into their music.

At this point I must admit that I'm not the big Aphex hater this thread makes me seem to be. I like many of his pre-IDM tracks ("Didgeridoo", some of the ambient tracks), when irony still wasn't the buzzword in electronic listening music, and I do agree that all of his records I've heard have a least one great track, but those are exactly the more serious, less wacky ones. I guess people wouldn't spend so much time arguing about Aphex if he was merely a talentless piece of shit. But since he obviously has skill, it's a pity won't put it into proper use.

I'm not really able to detect "irony" in Boards of Canada, Autechre, Aphex Twin, or Squarepusher. They all seem pretty serious about their music to me.

Erm, those are four quite different artists. Boards of Canada are pleasantly irony-free, which one reason why their music is so charming. Autechre are also definitely not ironic, but their music is rather too "intelligent" and abstract, so the distancing effect comes from that. Squarepusher does share some of the IDM traits with Aphex (remember "Come on My Selector" - if that track isn't ironic, what is?), but is obviously more serious about his music. His problem seems to be that he releases too much material. Most of his records I've heard have some great tracks and lots of boring ones.

Also, there's the question of complexity. I think too complex tracks can be distancing as well, which is why I dig "minimalist" electronic listening music such as Pole and Monolake. This may again have to do with my love for dance music, which is by it's nature incomplex. Also, I happen to love single sounds, and don't think you should put too many cool sounds into one track, since it reduces the effect one simple but beautiful sound may have. Art and prog rock fans however seem to think that complexity is a good thing in electronic music as well, which is why the dig artist like Aphex.

I know these are huge generalizations, but please tell me, am I making any sense here?

well, i did say this a bit further upthread but anyway...

This makes no sense to me, or Tuomas presumably, because if people want fun why not listen to house/hardcore/electronic pop music. Why should fun have to be laden down with critical acclaim and in fairness, irony. I think Aphex etc are only fun in a smug and careful way, rather than actual unreserved fun. In fact I can't imagine anyone ever talking about Warp as unreserved fun because they wouldn't then be allowed to use the word "subversive".

I don't think Basement Jaxx fit into this discussion, because as weird as their records might be they still chart and the Jaxx could seldom be accused of being ironic. Could you imagine Aphex having a carnivale style live show? Hardly.

It's dubious as to whether Squarepusher is being ironic but weren't "Come On My Selector" and "My Red Hot Car" were digs at garage/dnb culture, yeah very cool, certainly knows his audience anyway.

I guess this is a bit like the old soul versus jazz arguments.

I do maintain if warp is what gets you into dance music it'll be difficult to ever lose the indie mindset regardless of what other electronic stuff you check out, and the chances are you'll never bother with house/pop.

Personally getting into dance through house helped quite alot with getting into pop aswell. And I still listen to loads of techno as a result. I do like old Aphex stuff, analogue bubblebath, dance music, but the rest is too much. I feel Warp is in opposition to the stuff I do like, and has been treated this way critically for so long that I just amn't bothered. Also I don't like the music.

I did get into electronic through Warp stuff (Autechre and Aphex), but the bridge to that was hip-hop and beat culture (for lack of a better term), not indie anything. It's true that I wasn't into house music or anything with a four-on-the-floor pulse for a long time, but recently I have been really enjoying things heard through friends who make and dj synthpop and whatnot.

''I do maintain if warp is what gets you into dance music it'll be difficult to ever lose the indie mindset regardless of what other electronic stuff you check out, and the chances are you'll never bother with house/pop.''

don't know abt house but much production has had that kind of electronic type element that is found on warp recs so you could get into some pop through it easily.

I do reckon I would be into Plaid, from what I've heard. LFO I also like and !!!, so Warp's recent direction maybe is fine with me.

By "fun" in this context I think Tuomas and myself mean respect for audience, desire to please audience, potentially fun to people unfamiliar with the music on a random dancefloor etc etc etc.

I don't really agree that lots of production has the Warp electronic element, but I don't know whose production you mean so maybe you're right. Any examples?

(PS: Old man, you better go and read something else then, you're bastardising my techno)

I am not even a big Warp fan. They've put out their share of good stuff (nobody ever talks about all the great bleep stuff of the early days when they're ranting about Aphex). And bad, of course. Their fans can be quite annoying, although I think it's a mistake to judge music by its fans. But the haters are just as annoying as the fans. Both sides=ideologues who can only think in binaries.

Fair enough. When I first heard Aphex it didn't even occur to me to think of it in a dancefloor context, just as, you know, music.

(also, I was coming from the fifty or sixty year old "fuck 'em if they don't get it" jazz tradition).

I am sick to the gills of warp's status as the intelligent indiemans dance music.

IDM... was sold as being superior. By people who had no idea of what it was meant to be superior to either.

Etc.

Actually Vahid, none of that stuff you said sounds particularly "elitist" to me. Who knows, maybe you don't think it is. Since you said that debate was still relevant, I just assumed you did.

I think there was a point in Warp's history--call it the second phase--when they did seem to represent a coherent aesthetic that was making an argument about what electronic music should be. At that time, there probably was a need to argue against that aesthetic.

But that was a long time ago now. I don't think the terms of that argument exist any more. And Warp has moved on, and the type of music it releases now is more diffuse. OK, it's still not dancefloor stompers, but it's not "Electronic Listening Music" either. So I don't think that argument is very relevant any more.

Also, at this point in time, what Warp was fits very neatly into a certain history of dance music. It occupies a prominent place in that history, in fact. It would be interesting to read some different histories of dance music, that operate from different premises. In such histories, Warp's position would alter; it would presumably be viewed from a different angle, or simply not be very important any more.

That's all.

i'm sure the parts of aphex twin that are seen as ironic or whatever were just things that he thought would be a laugh,it seems like a kind of damned if you do,damned if you don't situation...

also,i think my point about aphex twin just pissing some people off has been illustrated,in that,for example,ronan
-doesn't like aphex twin's music (in general)
-does like derrick may's (in general)
and condemns aphex twin for a percieved superiority complex,yet is able to ignore may's actual self confessed belief that his music is more intelligent than other forms of dance music

i mean derrick may is far more obnoxious about that sort of thing than almost anyone i can think of...

also,as for the idea that squarepusher was somehow poking fun at garage with my red hot car,i think that is more what was presumed by a lot of warp followers/journalists,who do have a fairly snobby attitude...
i always presumed squarepusher himself heard garage and thought elements of it would sound good in his music,i mean no one assumes timbaland was having a dig at tabla music when get ur freak on came out...

(x-post)

i mean a more cynical way of looking at things would be to see it (and i'm including the video here) as a snide jab at r'n'b,but i always think its more a combination of aphex loving r'n'b,being able to see that it can be a bit silly,wanting to try to make something as good as what is out there,at once an homage,satire and pastiche...)

You might find it hard to believe but I kind of started from Stockhausen and moved towards the Aphex Twin! I've heard stuff of his I've liked, I just found SAW 85-92 to be pretty much glorified muzak, totally inoffensive and totally uninteresting.

No-one's arguing that non-ironic fun is bad!And, y'know, you can have both ironic and serious fun, even at the same time (see The Darkness). God, I'm going to sound like fucking Momus here, but what the hell is wrong with playfulness in pop music?

I recognise you feel pop-house is unfairly maligned by the mainstream press in favour of more Warpy stuff, but there's no reason to dismiss the latter out of hand. Not liking something because it's critically acclaimed is uber-indie nonsense.

Look, the reason I brought up Basement Jaxx is that I get the same giddy joy from Girl/Boy as I do from Romeo. Just ignore the bullshit and treat Aphex as pop and it works.

Yes. Take the Darkness for instance - Okay, they're a bit silly; arguably ironic - but they wouldn't make music like they do if they hated 70s/80s rock would they?

I guess things like Aphex and Squarepusher shouldn't be compared to dance music at all as it's rarely played in clubs and I'd rather headbang to Come To Daddy or smoke gear to Flim etc than hear it at Fabric (though this can be fun too, I imagine).

But ironic fun works much better in narrative art, such as cinema or literature, than in instrumental music. Unlike narrative art, instrumental music can affect emotions without any linguistic/symbolic filter between itself and the recipient. So intentionally building these sort of filters and barriers around your music to make the listen aware of your "intelligence" or "sense of irony" seems rather odd to me. There's nothing wrong with having a little fun and taking the piss once in a while, but I can't see the point of doing it for years and bulding your image around it.

To quote Bill Drummond: "Irony and reference points are the dark destroyers of great music." For once I agree.

Treating Aphex as pop is the best way to approach his work, I find. One thing that never seems to get mentioned in this kind of debate is that, more than anyone else on Warp except perhaps Plaid, Aphex is the master of MELODY - I mean, you could strip everything off To Cure A Weakling Child or Alberto Balsalm or even Vordhosbn and play it on a simple piano and it would still sound gorgeous.

I completely disagree with Ronan's point of view - I think once again he's being overly defensive about his own favourite type of dance music against a perceived hostile music press line which may or may not exist but once again is largely irrelevent. In any case, Basement Jaxx or Daft Punk get far more exposure and good press than anyone on Warp except possibly Aphex himself.

I don't really agree that indie kids get into dance music through Warp either, or that most Warpheads are really indie kids in disguise - there was a colossal amount of anti-guitar, anti-Radiohead fascism on the old Warp forums and most Warp fans I know wouldn't go near an indie record. Likewise, I think most Warp fans (myself included) got into Warp through the more mainstream end of dance music - for me it was trying to find music that got near the emotional 'wow' factor of InSides which led into Plaid and Aphex and so forth.

When i said that I was trying to remember some examples but couldn't. still can't remember any of the singles.

That's close to the point I tried to make upthread. Aphex is obviously talented, but why does he have to veil his talent behind all that irony and jokes? I guess it is because if he'd simply produce great, simple melodies and sounds, he wouldn't appear so "intelligent" and "arty". For some reason, in music there exists a peculiar sterotype, which goes something like this: "complex", "difficult", "ironic", "post-modern" = "arty, intteligent", whereas "melodic", "emotional", "simple", "physical" = "commercial, stupid". Many IDM artists seem to have fallen victim to this stereotype.

it wouldn't be half as fun nor as interesting - it would probably sound a bit boring and faceless too.

This wasn't my point. Simple sounds (such as a snare rush) can create direct responses as well, and so can beats, in a physical level. My point was structural simplicity vs. complexity. Simplicity works better in electronic music because it underlines the beauty of a certain sound, beat, or melody. But in Aphex' case these are lost because the viewers focus is on the structure and it's constant alterations. Such an attitude for music gan generate admiration for his talent but not a direct emotional/physical response to the music itself.

That says, he really has done it all to death and should really go and try his hand at something else by now, as large swathes of Druckqs would attest to.

tuomas, if you're making enemies of complexity of structure and 'beauty' in electronic music, then we gotta agree to disagree.

Maybe not in Bird, but absolutely in say, the 60s Miles quintet w/Tony Williams.

To compare Bird to Aphex doesn't work in this discussion, because "sound" in jazz means different thing than "sound" in electronic music.

Not to me, it doesn't. I was thinking about this last night, how a large part of jazz is an obsession with sound qua sound (in an acoustic environment of course). Every jazz musicians's personal sound/tone is their distinguishing and most valued trait, and part of the point of the musical environment and instrumention is clarity and space, so that everyone can be heard in their own frequency range. And then there's bending notes, extended techniques, etc. which have always been used for emotional effect.

Basically I was just sitting listening to some Telefon Tel Aviv and then to some jazz, and realizing that both spend comparable amounts of time laboring over their actual tones used, and that it's a big part of the pleasure I get from both.

vahid: agreed.

I think people are more anxious to read into what they think I'm saying rather than read my posts. It's nothing to do with critical acclaim, there is loads of critically acclaimed dance music I like, which I mentioned at several points on this thread.

Also just because my favourite music is pop house, don't assume that that's all I am aware of. Honestly I sometimes feel I'd be better off not being enthusiastic about what I do like because inevitably it leads to assumptions that one is thick.

Anyway the point I'm making is that this isn't a split between pophouse/warp on my part. Robin earlier raised a good point when he pointed out that I do like Derrick May but don't like Aphex and that this was possibly a double standard.

So yes at some point it comes down to me thinking Derrick May's music does not generally exist outside of clubbing as I know it, whereas Aphex's does. I think the large amount of people now arguing with me aren't willing to accept that my argument or opinion if you like is supported by subsequent records made by Rolando, Carl Craig, Laurent Garnier, or Agoria (to name a few). There is a different school of thought as regards deeper or acclaimed or fuck it INTELLIGENT dance music.

So it's not actually about my own favourite type of music because as much as I love Garnier/Agoria/Rolando, it's clear to anyone from my posts that I am more into Bangalter etc.

It's not about me railing against some pointless press line, it's about pointing out the existence of a whole other idea of IDM, one which, given the arguments against me in the last few posts, people are completely ignorant of, regardless of whether they've heard the artists in question.

Oh wait I have one! Cos you can't differentiate them easily in your head from DANCE MUSIC, ew!

It's not necessarily dance hataz, just people who fail to recognise the intellectual value of simplicity or of music which provokes a physical response. Like The Man With The Red Face maybe. Or Knights Of The Jaguar, or Jam The Box, or Quetzal, or Science Fiction, or Nude Photo.

"OR POPHOUSE" WOULD BE BETTER?

List goes on and on and on, maybe if more of them made albums they would be more intelligent????????????????

another tune for the above list, Aphex Twin-Analogue Bubblebath.

That's it. I AGREE WITH YOU on this point. I also agree with you 100% on the albums thing. I just think that using the snobbery of the press or indeed the fans as a stick to beat the label, the artists or the music itself with is wrong.

This is almost verbatim the same as the CoFlo/Def Jux vs Jigga etc debates except with dance music.

Er, is this aimed at me?

Otherwise, Matt DC is on the money.

A lot of Aphex comes out of acid--look at something like Surfing on Sine Waves, it's really not far from the bleep stuff Warp started with. And things like Didgeridoo were considered part of hardcore at the time.

And then most of the first series of IDM they did, stuff like B12, was slavishly imitating Detroit (the problem here was not that it was different from "proper dance," but that it was cowered by influence--too worshipful of tradition).

And the general critique of Warp for making fun of "proper dance music" is not such a slam-dunk either, as many people have tried to argue on this thread--appropriations of say jungle can as easily be read as simply filtering it through a different sensibility as mocking it (of course, we could argue that that sensibility is juvenile and emotionally stunted, but that's a different critique...) (though even there, isn't childishness something we're supposed to celebrate about hardcore? why not here?)

The thing is, Ronan, that your take on Warp is basically no different from the take of the people you are criticizing--which is ultimately based on marketing. You hate the label for the same reasons they love it.

Old man, you may be right but do any non Warp DJs actually play Warp records?

you'd be hard pressed to argue that the warp records of today has any real engagement w contemporary dance music. or w my record collection. even the lfo record is essentially ardkore nostalgia, innit?

Yeah it is dated but so what! The funny truth is that one of my favourite singles of the year was released on Warp. And I love the LFO record too. Though on the contrary Mitch I'd imagine Freak is getting played everywhere, mind you there's no club here lately so I can't be sure. So maybe Warp now is trying go back to the club scene, didn't they start some new offshoot label for this purpose tho?

Obviously its still 'night' until you go to bed even if you don't do so for two days as we've discussed before.

(btw to sidetrack, are you going to DEAF? I am going to the Winter Party, please I am not a scumbag)

what i mean about different types of music is that there is no opposition between warp and dance music,as far as i can see,in that a lot of people listen to both,and while there are no doubt people who would listen to warp instead of dance music and would dismiss normal dance music i'd say most people who are into warp would also listen to house or techno or drum 'n' bass...
ie electronic music made for dancing and electronic music not specifically intended for dancing are not (or don't have to be) mutually exclusive...

I'm not sure about the Warp thing really, I suppose I'm coming from the point of view of someone who feels there is enough stuff for all moods in house and techno, I've yet to take an interest in downtempo stuff specifically so as I say I don't really understand the idea.

Not that I listen to bangers the whole time, I don't know it's hard to explain, I never thought about it like that but I am fairly sure I just listen to stuff randomly enough.

Same goes for Electronica...

I think it says a lot about the current scene when you understand that Digerdoo was a huge tune on the hardcore scene in the early 90s. In that context you couldn't get away with drill n bass nonsense and crappy experimentation because as Thoumas alludes to dance music hadn't been tainted with the rockist idea of 12"'s and white labels being produced by "artists"

Drukgs sounds a lot better pitched down at -8 or -6

Re: RDJ as media personality.

You probably don't remember this, but there was a time when RDJ was GOD! I mean RDJ was the most important man in the fucking universe, you thought it, your dad thought it, and every last music journalist made it a point to make sure you did not forget it. I don’t care how big of a Detroit fascist you are (and I was the biggest one this board has ever witnessed!) you knew RDJ was the dope shit, you knew, your dad knew, and every last person who knew anything about electronic music knew it. That is cool and the gang, because if you don't like Aphex you are an idiot. RDJ is definitely one of the top 5 most important producers of the last decade and Blue Calyx alone is better than your entire record collection. But what do you do if you are just some kid from Cornwall who happened to make the best records and everybody and their brother could not stop talking about what a GENIUS you are??????? Could you imagine what it would be like for people to earnestly call you the new Mozart (I totally stole this very astute observation from Bruce Gilbert's invisible jukebox interview from wire!)???? God, that is a head fuck if I have ever seen one! Of course he acted like an ass and drove a tank, how could you possible take it seriously and not be completely creatively paralyzed?

Re IDM is not dance music

This whole Warp artist on one side and floortrax on the other is a complete load of cobblers. Everybody I knew in the 90's that had even marginal interest in dance music liked Aphex. And this is not like 99, this is like 94. Like Colin so rightly said, if you didn't have the SAW records we were not coming over after the party. The only reason you have such polarization right now is because of the indie invasion of the late 90's(which was a case of people who would have made boring guitar records coming in to flood the market with boring computer records which made the whole idea seem lame, stupid, and played out) and the declining fortunes of both genres of music. Back in the day that delineation did not exist, Kenny Larkin put out records on Warp. You could totally bang floortrax in your car or at the gig or while cleaning the house, and chill to Polygon Window or Beaumont Hannett at night.

Re artists in electronic music:

Don't you ever get bored? The division is recent and artificial. In the 90's we needed Autechre as much as we needed Cristian Vogel and Jesper Dhalbeck. We needed dudes to get artistical because there were so many boundaries to cross at the time. For all you cats who have the nuts of the progeny of Wolfgang Voight on your chin you need to remember that when that cat's records broke he was seen as being every bit as artistical as any Warp backed auteur. There was a time when RDJ records were like shocking brand new worlds, that was before there were a thousand IDM producers making entire microgenres out of just one of RDJ's hyperprism gimmicks.

So yeah anyway, RDJ is a genius, and yeah that guy upthread was right you should get as much as you can of his because it is QUALITY AND SO SO CHOICE, and you are fucking up if you sleep on it. And you asshats can call me a rockist all you like, cuz I am going to fly to that backwater you call home and smack your mother with my copy of Songs For My Father by Anthony Shakir on your front porch! Because I was raving when you still thought June of 44 was the shit! HAHAHAHAHAHAH

This is my second pot of tea tonight and I OWN EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU!

WAAAARRRRGGGHHHHHQ!!!!!

Though a bit of your rhetoric does sound like the ramblings of yon exemplary elitist (see upthread). This bit I could not agree with more.
Before catchphrases like Microhouse, Electroclash and Glitchcore became household names, Aphex had been making them. But the cool thing about it is he never held himself down to one style. The day the bottom dropped out of IDM was the day these little subgenres started getting invented. Artists started popping up out of nowhere making records out their bedrooms that all sounded the same. The only difference between them and Aphex was that RDJ has never been a one-trick-poney and for me, that is half the appeal. With every release up to Druqks it would be a case of "what the fuck is he going to hit me with this time?" and that's why sometimes it could sound, yes, a little pretentious. But I'd rather hear the Come To Daddy EP than someone who specialises in Techglitch Microdrill exclusively - what's the fucking point??!

IDM, Electronica, whatever you call it, died it's real death for me when Druqks came out and ruined an illusion of what Aphex Twin was all about. It's not a bad album, but like so many others, I am still disappointed by the long wait and the way the album opposes no new musical ideas, giving free reign to the geekazoids who claim to make decent electronica.