Taking Sides: Bill Drummond v. Julian Cope

Bill Drummond is a cynical old fuck. Julian Cope is a genuine nutter.

1) Your criteria for judging them is, as usual, completely fucked.
2) Even by your own criteria, when put in proper perspective (Bill Drummond is *not* trying to make a buck?) it's still Julian Cope by a mile.

it was really gross like trying to get into a bon jovi concert or something.

julian cope is a fake and a phoney.

bill drummond, is, obviously the nutter.

anyone that buys the jc propaganda, i'm not going to bother arguing with!!!

Can you imagine how many low-level nutters want to "review/interview JC for their fanzine" as just another blag? I'd hate to be JC's publicist, it must be the most thankless job on earth.

oh right.

you know what kate? don't be so personal. i'm a low level nutter? whatever. at least i'm not a 32 year old child catcher...

ay?

I can think of seventy reasons why bill drummond is fantastic.

70 reasond Bill drummond?

1) The Man (LP)
2) The Manager (rant)
3) JAMMS
4) KLF
5) burning a million quid (I have a theory on this btw...)
6) Penkiln burn
7) 45 the book
8) ... (carry on do...)

("fear loves this place" at least should be added to the cope plus list)

6. Signing Brilliant and recognising the genius of Pete Waterman early on.

I just wanted to requote that.

1) For the hypocracy
2) What the fuck is a childcatcher? (HSA is 36 if that's what you're implying)

Why the fuck SHOULD Julian Cope and his publicist "give you access"?

And does his not "giving you access" invalidate his music? I don't think so.

But I'm not arguing with you and your petty nutterhood, I've got work to do.

JC List
1) Killimanjaro
2) Wilder
3) good half of "everyone wants to shag.."
4) Fried
5) WSYM (single)
6) The krautrock revival started with himself and you know it...
7) Head-on the book
8) the modern antiquarian (that's too big a project to do to seem 'a bit nutty')
9) head heritage website
10) how I got up to ten without even trying...
11) Over to you guys...

ha ha. let's hope it's not yer 'music'.

6. Signing Echo and the Bunnymen and the Teardrops and thinking their debut singles sucked.

... a bit like Krautrocksampler then?

re: 7) Subtract one for bringing Gary Glitter back via the Timelords (not his fault exactly, I give you...)

My take on "I godda keep my despair"
Jesus and Mary Chain reckoned it was "I gotta keep my distance"
and JC's "I'm gonna get my kicks there"....

and "When I saw Mushroom head, I was born, and I was ...." (he never quite says dead...
became "One eyed soul, mushroom head, I was born and I was dead"

erp.

no dice. show evidence or forget it.

OK, 10 and 11 are empty, but why 8?

surface noise, Evidence? Even Sonny would take that one as a given...

Nah, not necessarily so, in fact, you could say that KILL BILL OST and Andy Votel has done mroe for the k-rock cause than JC in recent years. Most kids don't even remember JC.

With all due respect, you're all talking balls

I'm thinking more when only J.Rotten had anything to say re: Can, and I remember all those ads in NME back in the day with strange Krautrock album imports. I believe to be true the parts in JC's book saying "you can get the majority of these cheaply in second-hand shops", but it didn't stay that way for long...

Specially when he'd buy then (again) when he saw them. greedy swine...

Why the fuck SHOULD Julian Cope and his publicist "give you access"?

And does his not "giving you access" invalidate his music? I don't think so.

PS. I just wanted to see the amon duul film he was showing. I couldnt give a shit about 'getting access' - wtf? go back to drowned in sound. oops. forgot. no longer 'indie' are they?

if we knew the answer to that we wouldn't be here.

oops, sorry, offtopic.

Number of Julian Cope books I own and rate: Three
Number of Bill Drummond books I own and rate: One (and I'm not even sure I rate it)

Julian Cope wins again!

haa ahha haaaaaa ha haaaaaaaaaa hahahaha haaaaa

oh yeah,
10) going "haa ahha haaaaaa ha haaaaaaaaaa hahahaha haaaaa" in articles...

Only when it doesnt advance yer music career. Anyhoo I'm not a journalist just someone who loves music ...

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION...

I say John Lydon.

john lydon
sonic youth
stereolab
julian cope's book
bobby gillespie

No it doesn't need rock stars telling you & me. just most of the population. Just think how big it would be if Noel Gallagher had said it in 1997 or so.

andy votel
norman fay

mark i need a cigarette - i am bewildered by that idea of noel gallagher!

nono dadaetc, not more intelligent, just most people's attention is elsewhere...

all those nuclear scientists who are into neu and cluster, they know where it's at

Pointless discussion anyway, it's like arguing who was the best Everly brother, Don or Phil.

(falls on floor in shock at agreeing w/dada!!)

Generally i don't think k-rock is ever going to be "big", like by it's very nature, it's s.th. like a "minority interest", right?

PINK FAIRIES!!! FUCK!!!!

THEY ARE BOTH THE SAME.

greedhead: BD for those Teardrop explodes reissues (the reissue boxset thing particularly)

Cope went on and on abt. Krautrock in the mid-eighties, do Sonic Youth beat that? Anyway I reckon at least three cooler people have to namecheck anything retro before Bobbie Gillespie bangs on about it.

Oh yeah, Mr. "I'm Only Doing THis Music Journalism Thing To Attract Attention To Me As A Writer So I Can Be A Novelist" there...

Back to the original question?

I think Mr. Drummond is a cynical old businessman who has systematically ripped off artists, ripped off ideas, etc. etc. etc. and generally just taken the piss.

I think Mr. Cope is an often patchy but occasionally genius artist, who is genuinely enthusiastic about the things that he loves (Krautrock, Ancient Monuments, etc.) and has been ripped off by the music industry so much (see above) that if he wants to do something to earn a little cash to support himself, I'm generally willing to give it to him.

This is gonna be an unpopular observation here I know, but actually I have been told that "possessing an encylopedic knowledge of obscure rock musicians / bands / genres" is not actually synonymous with "intelligent".

Yeah, I was as shocked as you are!

ha! oh yeah, ms 'ive given up because the entire back catalogue ended up in Mr CD's £1.00 bin so fuck all journalists, parasites, etc' there ...

and it was my sister that started me smoking!

anyhoo, decided going to buy the tickets, see the amon duul film, skip out and see stazi at the queen is dead.

norman, question for you, what do you make of SAND... i found it in the charity shop cheap-like and wondered if you had any knowledge of it?

I just want other people to talk about it - what they think, etc.

doh xp!

dp, i haven't heard sand - is it worth picking up? Last rekkid trawl = fall totally wired/rush signals/siouxsie & the banshees kiss in the dreamhouse/er something else. Shd i pick up sand? I'm on a banshees kick at the moment because they were so fucking great. i read their bio when i was ill the last coupla weeks, and it's really good surely the banshees are dadaismus' nightmare band, b/c they start the group hating various named prog musicians, and finish off wanting to make a prog rekkid!! hah!!

Norman, email me yer address at o***************@h****** and I will copy SAND - you will love it - but only that you trade me POPUL VUH.

tn messageboard - is twisted nerve message board - I'm robotman - that board and the chipsrecords.co.uk can be cool for prog-kraut rock conversations ... andy votel occassionally invades and educates...

sand is cosmic drone folk. yeah, but dunno, it's pretty rare. have you heard of embryo - it's out on brain.

Would Sonny actually know how to breathe if Alan McGee or some other Hip Arbiter Of Taste tell him that it was OK to do it?

again? eh? it's called chatting about music with friends, kate. you should try it. it's fun!

i will tell you label info on sand norman. the guy from current 93 put it out on his record label in 96.

"'N' every gimmick hungry yob digging gold from rock 'n' roll
Grabs the mike to tell us he'll die before he's sold
But i believe in this - and it's been tested by research
That he who fucks nun will later join the church"

Chatting, i.e. talking to them about music. they tell me something, say about music, i tell them something, say about music (music can be exchanged for books, movies, etc).

Yeah, look at Current 93.

this makes me want to go dig out my jcope records rite nowww.

Well he is pretty great ("Magick Brother" and "Now Is the Happiest Time of Your Life")- I just don't really recommending dressing like him (well not in the 21st century)

Bill Drummond then.

middle years: bill's solo album on creation needs a sticker with JULIAN COPE written on it to sell, while julian steadily cranks out solid pop albums, except the godawful my nation underground. still, point julian.

later years: the KLF vs. julian unhinged. difficult. KLF gives us chill out, 3AM eternal and doctorin' the tardis. however, they release reams of pure shit, conceptual humor yes, but not funny enough when you can't get your money back 'cos it's an import album. julian is prolific, consistently good *and* funny as well. point julian.

books: both have written great books, but julian has written twice as many on a broader range of subjects, and his have more pages and better pictures. point julian.

celebrity fun: bill slagging julian is pretty funny, but julian slagging bono and courtney love is funny *and* essential. plus cope is on island and has the balls to slag U2 in his liner notes. point julian.

julian 4, bill 1. foregone conclusion, even if you give bill the point for the later years because you have brain damage and prefer the KLF.

Julian Cope's two tomes are hilarious and entertaining. A great writer he is not. He is however a great artist and musician.

Both are consummate bullshit artists.

Julian Cope's two tomes are hilarious and entertaining. A great writer he is not.

You are fucking high. Julian Cope can write rings around Bill Drummond.

Still, I have to pick Mr. Drummond in this particular deathmatch. He writes his ass off, plus he was in the KLF. NO CONTEST

I think you could make a case for 'I' or 'me', though, depending upon how you parse the sentence. A bit like one can with "Who goes there?" "I"/"Me". (I understand some grammarians insist on "I" here, on the understanding that it is a shorter version of saying "I do", but they are probably ridiculous.)

Only a bit like, though, because the more I think about it, the more "I" seems right in this case. Can you explain your reasoning, hazel? I have no qualifications so go easy on me.

(Suzy's source is not the same as mine, BTW)

This is not an equal partnership, this is exploitation.

the fact that he followed the manual underscores his ultimate genius.

What I heard about the burning money (I think I heard this at the Foundry, strangely enough) was that the weight of the burned money's ashes was just not consistent with the money that was claimed was burned.

Anyway... a scam! How outre!

I am all for scams as works of art, etc. - but not when the scam is ripping off the artist who is the originator of the art or concept. Drummond just has a long track record of exploitation and this makes me dislike him.

I know this is common in the industry, but it's still shocking. I've just finished Wolfgang Flur's book about Kraftwerk, and it's terrible the way that half the band were treated as session players.

The whole idea of a "taking sides" thread is irrational. I'm taking my side for this reason: patterns show that Bill D is an exploitative cunt. So there.

bill drummond is genius!

case closed!

ps. - sand is genius i have decided as well, listened to the first track 'golem' - a ten minute long track of whirring 70 electronics and phased acoustic guitars as germans inton the bad wisdom of messing with the golem! amazing!

And a reccomendation from someone you DON'T trust is as good as a warning from someone you do trust. So your ongoing adulation of Bill D only serves to make me more suspicious of him. The more you carry on, the more you make my mind up for me. Thanks!

nah. i'll leave it that we will agree to diagree though she's wrong. but that's 'o.k'!

I imagine Kate has better taste than that

http://www.kings.edu/womens_history/witch/wrevstarkey.html

read this book - christ knows i did and related rather well to it.

see you...

Instead of reading books about the overwhelming social and political and sociological causes of the witch craze.

The Witch Craze was the BIGGEST example of misdirection in the history of the modern age. The Rennaisance had happened, the Reformation had happened, and people were still poor and powerless and miserable. "Hang on, what's going on here?" they started to ask. The Church suddenly stood up and said "Erm... poverty and power imbalances aren't causing your problems... THE DEVIL IS!!! LOOK I SAW THE DEVIL OVER THERE!!! GO GET HIM!!!" thus diverting revolutions against Church and King for a few hundred years.

Classic misdirection.

Which brings us back to Sonny nicely.

and dude, i don't care if the publicist said no or not, it's the nature of the beast, it was the attitude i didnt dig ...

i can stand the heat, btw, just don't like the kitchen much...

anyhoo ... gots to go.

Outsider in Sonny's case means "I've been thrown out of more hallowed institutions than you can even dream of" rather realising that outsider status actually means people who have no *access* to those hallowed institutions.

I imagine Sonny's outsider ideation is probably his virtual equivalent of safety blanket and thumbsucking. He comes back here because obviously is does something that he NEEDS - i.e. reinforces his persecution complex. So I'm happy to accomodate him.

Bill Drummond is still a prick, though. Regardless.

Wow.

Ha.

(No, the whole thread is about how I just like poking Doomie with a sharp stick because it's fun, and how Doomie likes being poked with a sharp stick because it reinforces his love/hate thing with ILX.)

Oh yeah, and Bill Drummond is STILL a prick.

In other news, Bill Drummond remains prick indefinitely.

Julian Cope came on stage looking like a halloween fairy and read a prose poem in a slightly pompous voice about some kind of ancient and mighty stone wall with mystical powers.

They played one 'song' which lasted for about an hour. The witching hour I think.

:-)

Their "White 1" album has JC on it doing that song and it's fantastic.

Now I've seen to Sonny's burning
Someday I think I'll cut him down
But it can get so cold in here
And he gives off such an evil heat.
Flame on! Flame on!
Hail my incubatic incubator.

Now pay witness to Sonny's burning
Warming the damp and rotten seed
Warming the damp and rotten seed
That blooms into the DEMON FLOWER
Now both fire and flowers consume me.
Flame on! Flame on!

Evil heat is running through me
Flame on! Flame on!
Sonny's burning pits into me
Flame on! Flame on!
Sonny's burning holes into me
Don't interrupt! Don't interrupt!
Flame on! Flame on!

(The Birthday Party)

I like both BD and JC's work, on record and in print, btw. I think Drummond would get my nod, but I wish my favourite Cope record - his first solo LP - was in print.

Sample lyric:

"oh motherfucker/she was a cocksucker/went down on their ding-dong/she drank for her sing-song". "

1) He defends *pop* music like no other.
2) It is inspirational when reading his books on the train.
3) I don't give a shit about his music but can't get enough of his books.
4) I have never knowingly heaheard/read Julian Cope and it feels liberating. Living within spitting distance to Liverpool I would prefer to ignore at least one 'Liverpool is the centre of the musical universe' story. Although I am disproportionatley interested in the 'scene' involving all those people, despite not having heard/wanting to hear the music.

er, possibly.

My favourite hilarious bit from Jules: where he describes the games 'sock' and 'door', and the unforgettable afternoon tripping where he thinks Balfe(?) is a lion and runs around him for several hours, cooling his feet by instructing people to pour milk and cornflakes on the carpet as he zooms by.

If only. The problem is, he means it, maaaaaaan.

Sigh.

The problem is, this thread is the most entertaining thing on ILX for a while. I don't know if it's ILX that's messed up, or me.

This being one of the fine threads that first got me into ILX. Reads like a play now...

"Chet-vah Buddha, Cherra-loopiz
Chet-vah Buddha, Cherra-loopiz
Chet-vah Buddha, Cherra-loopiz
Chet-vah Buddha, Cherra-loopiz"

When in fact the actual lyric goes:

"J'ai mal aux dents!
j'ai mal aux pieds aussi!
J'ai mal aux dents!
j'ai mal aux pieds aussi!"

Yeah, I know it's confusing, this thing Cope apparently never heard about, this language called FRENCH.

OK, I don't expect Cope to be fluent or even remember his schoolboy French lessons, but whatever happened to book editors? "Chet-vah Buddha, Cherra-loopiz" ... Jeez!

Unless he wrote a good portion of it when he was 16? Hmmm.

p.s. "Chempal Buddha" got taken as the 'alternate' title according to the Faust box set. It was only about the rhythm of the words anyway...

this is a great thread, it's like the best, and the worst of the best of ILM. Plus, no c*l*m.

For some reason, when I contemplate bill drummond today, I feel this powerful antipathy, bordering on actual hatred. The feeling is vague, but real. I don't know why I feel this way.

when I contemplate julian Cope, I have feelings of warmth and love because of all the happiness and joy I've had from his great records and books.

OMg I am a fucked up hippie.

That's the one in '45' and it's a fine book. I got mine in a remaindrs shop. (There's a 7" square version, and a 'paperback' one.)

There's also a 12" version, with the unedited versions of all the pieces from the book! (though not available in shops)

a belated aside on Kate's huffy dismissal: compare Coler & Richardson's output by themselves (one novelty single of the theme to computer game Lemmings) to Cauty (eg The Red Red Groovy, 1987: What The Fuck Is Going On?, A Huge Evergrowing Brain That Rules From The Centre Of The Ultraworld, Fuck The Fucking Fuckers) and Drummond's (eg Peru/The Lonely Spy, Prime Mover, The Man, 1987, Gimpo, The Blizzard King) output without them, and claims of "the engineer did it all!" start to look more than a bit feeble. They were employed for their technical ability, not for their powers of creative instigation.

maybe because while being smart and intelligent, he's basically a son of a bitch?

I think Mr. Drummond is a cynical old businessman who has systematically ripped off artists, ripped off ideas, etc. etc. etc. and generally just taken the piss.
I don't see why that's so terrible. Actually, I do understand the viewpoint -- however, pardon the rhetoric but really, isn't the only original thought is that which is the source of all thought? That everything since the original source of all thought has been derivative of each subsequent thought, and that even the strangest notions we create are (often unwittingly) culled from several different sources? Don't all musicians get their ideas from somewhere else and aren't they all inspired by other sources, consciously or unconsciously? Isn't authenticity is a fictional concept because everything's really a replica of something else (and eventually replications seem to become original when they honestly aren't)? It's probably a pretty crap argument as it doesn't really justify anything, but I feel it's worth noting. (Although very belated.)

You're insane, Walter. Seek professional help at once.