Steepest decline: Lauren Hill, Tricky, Prince or Stone Roses?

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we're talking critical acclaim and sales...

add any others you think compete

― paulhw (paulhw), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

critical accalim, sales, whatever. Lauryn Hill wins. Her Unplugged thing was an unprecendented nightmare, not just a muddled follow-up.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

prince had a fairly lengthy run of albums before the decline set in, so i don't think it's fair to put him in the above company. prince had much more of a natural genius musician arc -- he had his run for about a decade, then got spotty but not outright horrible for several albums, then got worse. not a whole lot different than, say, the rolling stones, and not a whole lot different than, say, what's gonna happen to outkast sooner or later.

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 20 October 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Was the new Outkast their Lovesexy?

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:36 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck NO.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

It was their Buffalo Springfield Again, or their McCartney/Plastic Ono Band, but better.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

So it was their McCartney/Plastic Ono Band Again?

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

hmm, ok remove prince, and perhaps add Oasis...

― paulhw (paulhw), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

In the US, stone roses didn't mean shit in the first place -- acclaim-wise OR sales-wise. Which makes sense, since they were never any good.

I'd have to go back and check, but I think Moby might be the only artist who won the Pazz and Jop poll then didn't even finish in the top 100 with his next real album. (Unless Arrested Development count.)

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

It was their Buffalo Springfield Again, or their McCartney/Plastic Ono Band, but better.

which means that somewhere in their future, inevitably, is their "hawks & doves" or their "give my regards to broad street"

― fact checking cuz, Monday, 20 October 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

the British folks mentioned were way overrated and already somewhat mediocre, but the Americans actually were really great before they began to drop in quality. WE WIN!! U.S.A.! U.S.A.!

Haha, so which one is Lennon and which is McCartney? Dre seems more likely to make a bunch of Yoko crap but he ALSO seems more likely to drop a "Broad Street."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

why wouldn't Arrested Development count? Though they actually destroy my America is better than England idea. Moby too. Rats.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I feel Moby Grape should appear on this thread somewhere, as well.

Oasis didn't mean much more than Stone Roses in the USA, tho at least their first album (I think) finished top ten pazz and jop. Oh wait, maybe it was the second one. When did their dropoff supposedly happen?

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Oasis had one of the top ten best selling albums of the year in America when Morning Glory came out, Chuck.

I'm under the impression most people claim Be Here Now was the beginning of the end, but I don't think Oasis ever made a great album (and only made two great singles that I can think of, maybe 3).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Did Arrested Development even MAKE a second album? I honestly forget!
(They're generally recognized across the board as the worst Pazz and Jop winner ever, though I'd take them over Wilco myself. Maybe over *Time Out of Mind,* too. Though not over *Imperial Boredom,* oddly.)

Yeah, I know, that "Wonderwall" album was a big smash in the US. (Tho I didn't know it was THAT big.) But they never MEANT anything here; they were never, like, the voice of the lads or whatever people in England think they were. They were just a band on the radio with some hits. I mean, they maybe meant as much as Third Eye Blind or Matchbox 20 or somebody. Which is fine -- I don't hate any of those bands.

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Oasis fans feel that it was on Be Here Now (the coke-fueled followup to What's The Story Morning Glory I think?)....Oasis was huge on campus when I went to college, not just with indie dork-niks like myself - often played in the sports bar I worked at over the pa.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

crap I just restated everything anthony said sorry.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, you don't remember Zingalamaduni?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Did Arrested Development even MAKE a second album? I honestly forget!

Yeah, it was called Zingalamadundi or something....which they took great pains to translate as "Beehive of Culture," which was met with a vast, collective YAWN.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:00 (twenty-two years ago)

>>Oasis was huge on campus when I went to college, not just with indie dork-niks like myself - often played in the sports bar I worked at over the pa.<<

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. They didn't have any kind of identifiable US audience. And I doubt people could tell the brothers apart. (I know I still can't.) They were just a faceless rock band.

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck OTM.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, did that Z album have Mr. Wendall on it?

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

most people picked up on Oasis's advocation of Britishness, Chuck. At least that much. They were like the ONLY British band popular here at the time.

wendall was on the first one.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

**psst chuck - Liams the cuter, drunker one!***

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't mind the second Stone Roses album, actually. Lauren Hill's decline is indeed steep, but since it's seemingly fraught with a parallel mental decline, it's ghoulishly intriguing (unlike, say, Tricky's decline, which just follows the law of diminishing returns).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Mr. Wendal was on the first one, I still can't remember a song from the second Arrested Development....to decend further down the toilet bowl, didn't Speech have solo records....and the one girl singer with short hair (Diane Farris???) have a pop hit a few years ago?

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Goldie was going to be a star. then he released that hour long 'Mother' track and it was all over...

Massive Attack have destroyed their remaining cachet pretty quickly with 100th window...

Don't know how Stevie Wonder went from Songs in the Key of Life to Secret Life of Plants...or was there something in between?

Still, Lauren Hill seems to be winning at this stage...

― paulhw (paulhw), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Does it count as a dropoff if, by the time their second album came out, nobody liked the first one anymore?

And hey, what about the Knack??

I wonder how many Pazz and Jop votes Andrew WK will get this year.

Yeah, good point, I guess for Americans, Oasis = British. And that was about it. But in England I get the idea they were something more than that. There have definitely been less British British bands.

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

But they never MEANT anything here; they were never, like, the voice of the lads or whatever people in England think they were.

True, but they stayed huge for so long simply because they didn't mind actually coming over, and touring the hell out of America. (Got to the point I'd be saying, "Again? You were just here a month ago!") As long as the 'kids' were interested, they kept coming. Pity was, their music was simply rock fun---when Noel wasn't being soulful. They lost sight of what they were after, and the punters could tell with Be Here Now they stopped caring.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Arrested Development actually peaked long BEFORE their first album, when they appeared on the porch in the background in all those '80s John Cougar Mellencamp videos. Also, I think the old guy in the rocking chair used to be the old guy in the English Beat.

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

But Nichole, we don't even HAVE punters in America!

Except for the ones on football teams.

And no, not THAT kind of football, either.

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

hey chuck, you forgot to bring up Weiland stealing their chair for MTV unplugged.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

the, ahem, hit on the second AR record was Ease my mind. I remember hearing a fair bit on US radio. it was...ok.

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, so do people think that Oasis got less soulful, less fun, less rock, artier, more pretentious, what? How are they supposed to have changed? I never heard that *Be Here Now* album, but again, it's not like they were all that great or unpretentious to begin with. I mean, what the fuck is a wonderwall?? They were ALWAYS a bunch of full of shit phonies. My theory is that the punters are just fickle bastards!

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, did I write that Weiland thing somewhere before, Anthony? It sounds familiar. I know I wrote the Mellencamp stuff before. I may or may not have stolen the English Beat stuff from Rob Sheffield, though.

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Dionne Farris' hit was "I Know," which I find pretty much interchangeable with Des'ree's "Gotta Be."

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

This must be the fastest a thread reached a unilateral agreement and then turned into jokes. A wonderful thing, btw.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

You did write about it before (this is what I get for reading yer books as often as you did). And I don't want a Teena Marie fan complaining about wonderwalls.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

and actually a Wonderwall is a reference to George Harrison's album Wonderwall Music on which he invented IDM back in the '60s. It's one of the better case of Oasis's Beatles-oriented Tourette's Syndrome, along with "the fool on the hill and I feel fine!" (ok and I stole that line from some spin review).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

the article on Lauryn in the current ish of Rolling Stone is crazy. a lot of sketchy hearsay, but it also clears up a lot of weirdness that went on with her and the Fugees back in the day.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

But Nichole, we don't even HAVE punters in America!

I know, Chuck....sounded less patronising than "unimaginative buyers" (and yes, I was a rabid Oasis fan til BHN_. Let them bring out another good album, and I'll rethink.

And no, not THAT kind of football, either.

Have you watched ESPN in the last year?;> There are American soccer squads all over.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

...about this whole Oasis thing (since yes, I still run the mailing list and to heck with you if you complain). I could name you scads of non-UK folks from said list who specifically mentioned Oasis as being their own particular entryway into 'British' music as admittedly sometimes narrowly defined, but also envisioning it as a certain sense of other in the classic Anglophilic sense. It's no different from other plunges into UK groups as similar gateway drugs, as I'm sure many of the Moz freaks here from an earlier decade could testify, for instance. And just over the last few days a number of the list diehards have been talking in detail about just how thoroughly the music can and does still mean -- one close friend of mine has an autistic brother who literally has only responded in many ways to Oasis's music as a means of calm and communication. The punters may be fickle and the band may be phonies (but having met most of them over the years, I've always found them to be friendly and funny fellers myself), but some still believe and find connections with them, and to me that's more than good enough.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Did I dig up my old "don't go chasing wonderwalls" joke yet?

Sheena Easton knew more about walls, anyway.

(As did, possibly, the Wallflowers, who covered that David Bowie song about standing by the wall because, well, that's what wallflowers DO.)

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Oasis covered the song too! In the same summer! Conspiracy!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, I'm not denying any of that. But my point is that fickle pickle peppered punter people find meaning and connections and something to believe in in Matchbox 20's and Third Eye Blind's and Smashmouth's and REO Speedwagon's and Nickelback's musics in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, except for, um, the British stuff. (Though I don't doubt there are people who feel Nickelback is a key to the exoticness of Canada.)

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Sort of like you and Loverboy, right?

Sheena Easton only knew what Prince told her (which was probably more than enough).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Sort of like you and Loverboy, right?

No, the rest of the world vis-a-vis Rush or Bryan Adams (take your pick). As for people finding connections in everything, that's the point! :-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

And oh yeah, except that REO Speedwagon (and Loverboy) rocked and Oasis (and Nickelback) didn't, of course. Though I do like that one Nickelback video where the truck breaks down or something like that.

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

But you're arguing the rock thing as in rock-that-makes-you-dance thing, yeah? I don't mind that take at all, mind you, we just need to keep all the definitions clear!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't know if I've ever danced to "Golden Country" or not, Ned. (So tho dancing may be part of it, it's not all of it. If you want clear definition, refer to my never remotely ambiguous previous works.)

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Hurrah! (Wait, when don't I refer to them?)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, let's just say that, if Oasis rocked, they'd be Slade. (Who I understand were huge with punters and pinters alike back in the day.)
Either that, or they'd be an oi! band. Not prissy little mum's boys.

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

(Who I don't doubt for a second are very nice chaps, in real life.)

― chuck, Monday, 20 October 2003 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Huzzah!

Anyway, Slade liked 'em. Or Noddy did at least. And they covered "Cum on Feel the Noize," which most Americans I know initially thought was a Quiet Riot cover, a fact I deeply enjoyed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, now that I think about it, you could get most of the stuff off the first album mixed in with Andrew WK stuff and nobody would complain (an assertion I specifically make to bait all the AWK lovers here who profess a hatred of Oasis, of course).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 20 October 2003 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

But Noddy liked EVERYBODY! Or at least he always seemed like he would.

And if Oasis were REAL Slade fans, they would've done "Bangin' Man" or "Them Kinda Monkeys Don't Swing" or "My Friend Stan" or "Run Runaway," instead.

Andrew WK has more Slade in him than Oasis does, when you get down to it (and get with it). (Though not as much as Kix did.)

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 00:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm counting down the seconds for Anthony M to make an acerbic Kix comment. If Andrew WK had more Slade in him I'd like him more! (The one song was perfect for the Friday night thing in London, to be sure, thanks to the drink and atmosphere -- and you could have followed it up with "Rock and Roll Star" just as easily!)

Anyway, everyone should do "Run Runaway" at least (the first Slade song I ever heard! and how come nobody admits to liking "My Oh My" anyway?).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

In the US, stone roses didn't mean shit in the first place -- acclaim-wise OR sales-wise. Which makes sense, since they were never any good.

Hearing this said by someone besides the voice inside my head makes me so, so happy.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 00:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck just needs to recognize that the second Loverboy and Kix albums are better than the first by both. Um, that's about as acerbic as it's gonna get.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 00:13 (twenty-two years ago)

You are mellow, sir! Then again, I'm feeling that as well, I should get some dinner.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Speech went on to sell quite a few solo records in Japan. I still hear people mention him in Japan, as if he is a contemporary artist. It's remarkable. Same thing happened with Mr. Big, I believe.

― Debito (Debito), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 02:01 (twenty-two years ago)

and Swing Out Sister!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 02:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i wonder if terence trent d'arby is big in japan.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 02:08 (twenty-two years ago)

If I pay, will he then sleep by my side?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 02:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Did Arrested Development even MAKE a second album? I honestly forget!

i have a lot of affection for zingalamaduni or whatever it was called... it sounded so... odd. like a soul symphony scored on casio keyboards, very tinny but with a vague and overstated ambition/pretention. the lyrics, as ever, were preachy to the max, but the melodies were cool. i remember chris morris playing 'africa's inside me' on his radio show, which prompted me to buy the album...

Secret Life Of Plants was awful - but a pre-conceived career detour that should never have been assumed as the follow-up to Songs In The Key - but Hotter Than July, the tre follow-up, wasn't quite so jaw-dropping a fall off...

― stevie (stevie), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 07:10 (twenty-two years ago)

In the US, stone roses didn't mean shit in the first place -- acclaim-wise OR sales-wise. Which makes sense, since they were never any good.

Hearing this said by someone besides the voice inside my head makes me so, so happy.

err, j0hn, check the archives for about 186,000 "the stone roses are godawful" type comments.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 07:27 (twenty-two years ago)

And if Oasis were REAL Slade fans, they would've done "Bangin' Man" or "Them Kinda Monkeys Don't Swing" or "My Friend Stan" or "Run Runaway," instead.

Real Slade fans are drunken hooligans (check) who only half remember the words to their most well known hit (check), which they can only sing half as good as the original version (check). Oasis wins!

― Dave M. (rotten03), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 07:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Oasis may not be showcasing exactly the steepest decline, but never has any detour so exhibited a band's limited potential so evidently and painfully. Everything after Morning Glory (and two thirds of that album too, anyway) has been so painstakingly pauvre. And still, that fool to Noel keeps on defending it like the ignorant Gibson guitar bonehead he is (oh, wait, Bonehead was one of the other guys, right?). That's even worse.

― Jay Kid (Jay K), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 08:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Scott -- I've been stationed in Japan for about three months, and I've heard nary a mention of Mr. D'Arby. Of course, my grasp of spoken Japanese is limited, so may be missing something important. (I have, however, been alerted to the Mr. Big phenomenon. ;-))

― John Fredland (jfredland), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 08:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Tricky is such a fucking tosser.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 09:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"I could have produced that, I wrote rappers delight in 1955, I could have produced all of Prince's stuff but wasn't into it, I wrote all of dance music, I grew up in a house with no windows or walls with a stereo tied to my head playing hiphop from the 50s before hiphop existed so it was actually country. I think indie stars are right twats. I had ideas in 1997 that are what Dizzee Rascal is doing now"

It's like wake up Tricky, all you've done for 8 years is cocaine talk.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 09:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Aaliyah.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 09:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 09:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Tricky is such a fucking tosser.

Well, he is now, but I still think Maxinquaye is a great goddamn record.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 10:43 (twenty-two years ago)

COME ON PEOPLE doesn't anyone remember "Revolution"?????????????

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone else think Lauren Hill's releasing an double album of un-produced 3-chord acoustic songs and then essentially ignoring the industry's wishes to take care of her kids was actually a splendid act of punk defiance?

i still stand by Maxinquaye, and most of Angels with Dirty Faces, but the new Tricky album is mostly unlistenable.

Only ever heard the Greatest Hits by Stone Roses, found it to be quite unremarkable.

Prince is past his prime, but still ok in my book.

― Kevin Erickson, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I must be almost alone in loving Lauryn Hill's Unplugged v2.0, and one of the things I love so much about it is how honest and raw she is on there. I'm also of the opinion that she is far from done recording music, and that in a few years, in retrospect, the Unplugged thing won't seem like such a "disaster" as more of a rough transition into the era of nu-Lauryn, hopefully a Lauryn making music she feels strongly about. I don't think she'll ever be as commercially successful as she once was, though.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

TOTALLY. One of my favorite things about this album is how defiant & brave it was. (Plus I really like the songs, that helps).

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

lumping prince in with these guys is like lumping jose canseco in with kevin maas and jerome walton.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Kula Shaker to thread

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

HAHAHA I just got Matt DC's joke!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha ha! you're going to hell!

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh my God I deserve a swift slap in the face for laughing at that, holy shit. :(

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Tricky's later years are (nearly) redeemed by the sheer brilliance that is 'For Real'. A mixtape gem, if ever there was one..

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

The only good Tricky album is Pre-Millennium Tension.

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Phil, that is a lie.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

no, it's an opinion. I don't agree with it either, but there is a difference, Dan.

― Al (sitcom), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I always thought that Wonderwall being named after that Harrison album was interesting, like he was telling a girl "You're my ill-advised experimental electronic album"

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

no, it's an opinion. I don't agree with it either, but there is a difference, Dan.

That is also a lie.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

(damn, he saw right through me.)

― Al (sitcom), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

haha did anyone read the interview with tricky in jockey slut a while ago?
it was like a mix between the most exaggerated stereotype of him mixed with roy keane

at one point he was asked about the fact that he went to school with julian dicks,and he went off on a rant about how "he may think he's the hard man now but i know who was bullied in my school and who wasn't"etcetc

― robin (robin), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I really don't think that there's anyone ever who declined so severely in every conceivable aspect of their being between two records as Lauryn Hill did between Miseducation and Unplugged. It's extremely depressing.

Tricky went downhill, but he still has good songs here and there, and his last LP was pleasantly mediocre.

Prince lost it, but he's still okay. Going from being a genius to a pretentious mediocrity seems severe, but even in his current state, he's better than a lot of folks.

I don't really care about the Stone Roses.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah read that Robin, that was kind of why I was mocking. He really is a tosser, every single interview he acts like he didn't work with alanis morrissette and matchbox 20.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Lauryn Hill being brutally honest about a personal/spiritual need to change the course of her life /= "decline"!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(IMHO of course)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

your real name isn't Brother Anthony by chance is it?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah shit, I always forget about Brother Anthony, goddamnit. Yeah I guess she is a wee bit on the crazy. I still love her album though, so THBBPPPPPPPPPP.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

You know, I'm actually starting to get sad that, after all the stuff in this thread, nobody has come to the Stone Roses' defense.

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

And everybody else here is too young to remember the once-legendary-in-certain-circles post-debut-album declines of the Violent Femmes and Dream Syndicate, right?

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

There's been enough Stone Roses defense elsewhere on the boards -- I think there's some very good stuff on both their albums, but I never treated them as the second coming (ho ho) either.

As for the Femmes and the Dream Syndicate, fret not, Chuck. I don't directly remember but by the time I found out about both bands in the late eighties, the differences between then and now were clear. To the Femmes' credit, I think they realize this fully!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

And also, um, is Lauryn Hill's decline all THAT much more notable than similar declines by Macy Gray, Jill Scott, and Erykah Badu? (And was Tracy Chapman's second album any good? Does any remember?)

And for that matter, what happened to NWA after *Straight Outa Compton*? (Okay, besides solo careers?)

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

any = anybody

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate to say it but I've never even heard of the Stone Roses - any good then?

It's weird with Lauryn; although I find Brother Anthony & his influence on her ridiculously creepy and hopefully something that won't go on too much longer, I think her between-song speeches on Unplugged come off as very honest and real and I don't find anything about her wanting to be truthful with her fanbase about her life something I'd exactly call a "decline".

it's also quite possible I'm just in denial

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Nickalicious: knowing your tastes, I honestly think you'll find the Stone Roses pretty dull and will be comparing things in your brain to bands that do similar sounds better.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Except of course for the songs "Fool's Gold", "I Wanna Be Adored", "She Bangs The Drums" and "Waterfall".

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, I think Chuck definitely has a point though regarding all those artist's & their mid-first/second album slumps, although I think it's more pronounced in L-Boogie's case cuz of all the expectations people had placed on her.

(I also think that Jill Scott might not fit that pattern as she's just taking a hella long time to record her second album as opposed to going through a personal/spiritual change, but she's still got time ha ha.)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

But anyway, the bottom line is that MOST artists turn to shit, unless they die first. And sometimes even then. You could just as well talk about Lou Reed or John Lydon or Iggy Pop or Bruce Springsteen or Elvis Presley or Axl Rose or Paul Westerberg or the Mekons or Sonic Youth or Public Enemy or Jimmy Castor or Loverboy or Ray Parker Jr or Ace of Base as anybody on this thread, couldn't you? (Those were just random examples!) How is Prince different? He made good albums for a while, then made bad ones. That's just NORMAL, isn't it? (Or do they only count if everybody AGREES they're bad? And nobody buys them? Still, wouldn't some of said artists fit those requirements, too?)

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey, I enjoy those too! (And more besides.) But I dunno -- do you really think Nickalicious would like "Fool's Gold" or would he just find it pretty boring? (In otherwards, he has to at least listen to THAT song. ;-))

Or do they only count if everybody AGREES they're bad?

Precisely! Oh wait.

The Dead make for an interesting example, perhaps, since they didn't do much in the way of studio work for the last fifteen years of their Jerry-led existence. Of course, you could argue that they never were good to start with, which I do have some sympathy for.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

How about Black Sabbath after, like, Sabotage or whatever? (Not to mention Ozzy's 98 percent worthless solo career?)

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the difference Chuck is that sometimes artists make good albums, make shit albums, but then make good albums again, ie the Neil Young Principle.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

But Neil (whose later "good" albums aren't anywhere near as good as his early ones, by the way) is more the exception than the rule.

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I still prefer the Clash/Patti Smith principle (which I mentioned on an Outkast thread last week) where every subsequent album is worse than the one that preceded it. That way, you know what you're getting.

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

erykah badu's live album >>>>>>>>>>> baduizm

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

i like never say die and the two dio ones and the ian gillan one.

now i'm really embarrassed cuz i used to own the second violent femmes record and i used to play it too. and i haven't thought about it for years. and there was a song on it about digging black girls cuz they liked lou reed when he sucked. i used to listen to growing up in public and the bells too. now, i only ever play the blue mask and berlin cuz i'm so cool.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

And then there's the rule Mike Rubin came up with a number of years ago (which I don't entirely agree with, but which certainly applies in a LOT of cases): "There are no comebacks in rock music. Once you're shit, you're shit." If people would only take that to heart, imagine all the money they'd save on Bob Dylan* and Pere Ubu records.

* -- I say this as somebody, by the way, who voted for a Bob Dylan album in his top ten a couple years ago (though I shouldn't have, considering I haven't played it all the way through once since) and who might vote for Merle Haggard and/or ZZ Top albums this year. So yes, I know, there are many exceptions. It's just a rule of THUMB, ok?

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

kelefa made me want to buy the new eryka after i read what he wrote in the new york times a couple weeks ago. i shouldn't believe him though. i'm afraid it will be like the time that i read a review in the voice and ended up buying a moby album.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

[By the way, Scott, I just got those Swans tapes. Thanks!!!!!]

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I LOVE the second Violent Femmes album. That song about the father throwing his daughter down a well is BEYOND CLASSIC.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

paul revere and the raiders albums just keep getting better than the one before it until they slowly start to get worse. ( cuz, you know, when drake and phil left, they kinda took the heart of the band with them)

cool! remember, you have to listen to them at least once before you give them away to somebody.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

But "Indian Reservation" is GREAT, Scott!

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

dan, that's why i bought that album!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

it is great, but actually not as great as the original by that guy who did that song "belfast boy" whose name i can't remember. and the rest of that album is patchy to say the least.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

for the record, hard 'n' heavy (marshmallow) and Alias Pink Puzz are the last good Raiders records.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

But what about Mark Lindsay's solo career? Doesn't that count, on the basis of "Arizona" alone, seeing how it blows away anything Ozzy or MC Ren did in THEIR solo careers? (And wasn't there a Merillee Rush connection as well? Actually, I have no idea what I'm talking about.)

I promise, however, that I will listen to the Swans at LEAST once.

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

So yes, I know, there are many exceptions. It's just a rule of THUMB, ok?

So, it could as well be renamed the rule of crooked middle finger then.

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

That first verse of "Arizona" is some kinda demented genius, but the chorus! It might as well be a tourist jingle for the state of Arizona (was it ever coopted as such?).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Everywhere but in Winslow, which used an Eagles song instead.

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Distressing.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Phoenix couldn't decide between Isaac Hayes and Glen Campbell, if I remember right. And the whole state hated that damn Public Enemy song.

― chuck, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

mark's solo stuff has its moments, but nobody should ever underestimate the heart and soul that were Drake Levin and Phil "Fang" Volk. Compare their post-Raiders output-the two Brotherhood albums and the incomparable acid-drenched krautrock that is Joyride/Friendsounds-with Collage & Indian Reservation. it's not even close! they never would have come up with something as wonderful as "Louie Go Home" without those two.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 October 2003 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll have heard of Lindsay solo is Silverbird which was totally wack. I must find out about the brotherhood.

Would anybody be calling Hill's Unplugged "real, raw and honest" if she herself wasn't saying that between each track?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:46 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

I would say Prince's decline was not that steep, but kind of slower. It started with "Lovesexy", which was still considered a great album by most, then the horrible "Batman", which was nevertheless not really his own project, followed by the quite good "Grafitti Bridge". Also, "Diamonds And Pearls" isn't considered a bad album, and the love symbol one had its moments too. Then, highlights became rarer and rarer, but we aren't speaking of a steep decline, rather a slow one.

Some of his 90s output I haven't really checked out at all. I hear lots of people seem to consider "Crystal Ball" the best of his later albums, is this true? Is it worth checking out?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 21 November 2003 01:14 (twenty-two years ago)

most people picked up on Oasis's advocation of Britishness, Chuck. At least that much. They were like the ONLY British band popular here at the time.

Take That topped the US hitlist about the same year Oasis were riding high, didn't they?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 21 November 2003 01:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Take That had a greater familiaraity with the Chippendales circuit than the U.S. charts.

― musicmope (musicmope), Friday, 21 November 2003 02:37 (twenty-two years ago)

But "Back For Good" was a big US hit, wasn't it?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 21 November 2003 02:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Not that big IIRC, plus it was their only hit here.

― Vinnie (vprabhu), Friday, 21 November 2003 04:25 (twenty-two years ago)

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