Bolt the door, Varg is loose!

This is sufficiently vague that I like to amuse myself by wondering what they were.

"You eat sausages made out of TOFU!"

*shriek* "JAIL HIM."

He's out soon, rite?

(Gosh, I had forgotten about all these crazy screencap poems I made last fall of BM dudes talking shit...sorry, guys)

roxy the five-panel one of Varg is actually one of the most affecting things I've ever seen online, I have to say! I mean, Varg's an asshole, and believes in a lot of shit I think is utter garbage, but as with a lot of extremist thought, there's a kernel here or there that's really resonant, and that bit - "who were the first churchburners? how much more destructive were they?" - really gets to me

Mid 2008, apparently. It will be fifteen years then...can't believe how quickly that went by (for me, not for him I guess).

Funny that in the current climate these then-headline-grabbing 'terrorist' events look really tame now. Plane crashes, exploding trains, flaming jeeps, live beheadings - the satanist movement has really been upstaged royally.

don't think your average joe even paid much attention at the time (outside of scandinavia, that is)

"who were the first churchburners? how much more destructive were they?"

Yes, but it's somewhat amusing that for all his glorification of chaos and destruction in the end he just complains that "the Christians did it before".

I think his philosophy is more of a "take the power back" one, not a "they did it first, so why not?" one. The dude is crazy, though. He believes aliens came to Earth and mated with Aryan women to produce a more perfect race!

And thanks, John, it had a similar effect on me when I watched the movie, that's why I started making them in the first place.

The dude is crazy, though. He believes aliens came to Earth and mated with Aryan women to produce a more perfect race!

No crazier than your typical Bible story.

there's a kernel here or there that's really resonant

more than a kernel, in my opinion. Christianity should be wiped off the face of the planet.

wai u hate santa : (

Here's true madness:

The Pope's Pears: The vaginal pear was used on woman who had sex with the Devil or his familiars. The rectal pear was used on passive male homosexuals and the oral pear was used on heretical preachers or lay persons found guilty of unorthodox practices. Inserted into the mouth, anus or vagina of the victim, the pear was expanded by use of the screw until the insides are ripped, stretched and mutilated, almost always causing death. The pointed ends of the 'leaves' were good for ripping the throat, intestines or cervix open.

Dude, you certainly don't have to convince me that Christians are crazy. What do you think attracted me to metal in the FIRST place?

I know! Jesus just riles me up. That's all.

Well Jesus was hardly running around sticking pears up peoples vaginas! Those Popes tho...they were trouble.

No crazier than your typical Bible story.

that's not really a defence.

Yeah, that's what you call a dubious honor.

that's not really a defence.

what is it you think i'm defending? varg's beliefs? i just don't think he any more or less crazy than a lot of people on the planet.

has he talked about his plans?

plans??

Well Jesus was hardly running around sticking pears up peoples vaginas!

Since he didn't exist, you gotta point.

(^Sheesh.)

I bet Ole Grishnach's gonna cool out for a long time when he gets out, but then he's going to do something completely out to lunch.

yet another dodgy electronic album?

I hear actually he's gonna bring back eski

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/06/300px-Varg-vikernes.jpg

Who ate all the pies?

kind of depressing apologetics for Varg in this thread.

seriously.

you're right, when you disagree with someone you must not, ever, discuss the content of their beliefs or allow that some points may be interesting, even if repellent.

I wonder what his parole conditions will be? Hopefully there'll be a clause about not being allowed to collaborate with Stephen O'Malley.

He has to work w/ David Stewart. And eno.

you're attributing too much to Varg's 'beliefs' here. it's not really interesting or compelling at all. i could very well throw a Jew on a cross and say 'they did it first, they deserved it'.

i have no problem discussing his philosophy, i just find it unfortunate that we're giving it some amount of credence when it's so obviously idiotic and heinous.

coupla xposts

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/primrosehill/allsacredplaces.jpg

OMG, he's like the lovechild of Elbow's Guy Garvey and iLiKETRAiNS' Dave Martin!

i have no problem discussing his philosophy, i just find it unfortunate that we're giving it some amount of credence when it's so obviously idiotic and heinous.

what understanding would come from discussing something that you think is obviously idiotic and heinous?

not to be a pedant but that's not what apologetics means

also, you're wrong

your analogy is also miraculously inapt also though if this were an imageboard "I could very well throw a Jew on a cross" would certainly reach legendary macro status

i'm still amazed at how different he looks in those before and after shots.

marc singer made a similar transformation after Beastmaster.

we'll always remember the tragic incident where he burned down the christian science reading room in van nuys...

Thread needs Momus.

Varg refusing to post anymore to teh internets, according to his webmaster, due to purported copyright infringers. He also said something like "I was going to sink into obscurity anyway when released, so I will just go ahead and start now."

He's eligible for parole in April.

He was jailed in 1993 and according to customs here, he will probably be free soon. As it is unusual for Norwegian prisoners to serve more than about two thirds of the sentence in jail. He got 21 years, which means those 14 years have passed soon.

Then he will serve another six months for each of his last two albums.

Some crazed junkie claimed he saw varg driving around here a month ago. He got scared and hid behind a tree.

True story.

Did the junkie have brown eyes? I'd be scared, too.

He's kind of cute.

"I was going to sink into obscurity anyway when released, so I will just go ahead and start now."

As if...Varg loves TEH DRAMA whether he admits it or not.

He should totally go on The Hills or whatever the hell that show is, and out-drama queen the girls on that show. Or just eat them.

Maybe his eyes were brown? I don't really know. He's not the only one who's seen him so I guess he's on his way back into society(hah!)

And I suspect he's quite the drama queen. The tales of his adventures around here in the early 90's are almost too good to be true.

I think he's making a blond hair-blue eyes Nazi joke.

As if...Varg loves TEH DRAMA whether he admits it or not.

maybe "sink into obscurity" is aryan for "buy a couple of assault rifles, 15 lbs of ammo and some plastic explosives."

He always makes vague threats about what he will/won't do when he gets out, if he ever gets out.

Has he made threats about making bad electronic albums yet?

http://wizardishungry.com/blog/_/2007/08/varg.gif

in case u want it

He should join this band
http://www.myspace.com/satanicimpalement

God, get one new joek!

You haters realize, of course, that his albums have only gotten BETTER over time, right? And that his experiments with MIDI are GENIUS?

Hopefully he will committ some minor crime like a church burning or something at first. Because, in Norway you may become sentenced to internation in an asylum for life if the patient doesn't seem to recover. However, this opportunity didn't exist at the time Vikernes was in court, so when he gets out he is free. They will probably take the first possible opportunity to sentence him to internation though.

I actually like a lot of the material on "Hliðskjálf." It'd sound better if it weren't performed on whatever lousy keyboard he's got access to in prison, but there are some nice little melodies on there. I'm thinking of "Die Liebe Nerþus'" in particular.

He's no longer allowed to have a synthesizer in prison. They made him pick, and he chose his computer.

Oh.

You know, keeping in touch with the Norwegian neo-nazi movement is a lot more important for him than making music anyway.

He actually thought he would be able to still make music using the computer, but they won't let him have any discs now, so he can't upload any music-making software or anything.

Varg's former webmaster claims that Varg has never used the internet, though! Does having a computer in prison in Norway also mean having internet access?

I should say, rather, the current webmaster of burzum.com (whom I think is Prozak, though I don't really know).

Yeah, I've emailed back and forth with that guy.

Varg does not have internet access; he dictates everything to the webmaster.

He writes it on a piece or rock cake and throws it over the wall.

a piece, or rock cake! cute!

he writes it in a letter, duh.

He's no longer allowed to have a synthesizer in prison. They made him pick, and he chose his computer.

This should be a condition of his parole too, along with the Stephen O'Malley thing I mentioned earlier.

He constantly petitions for more things, and has them given to him by certain officials and then taken away by others.

Can't wait for our next conjugal visit this Thursday.

(jk!!!!)

In August 2005 Vikernes married "Golden Girls" actress Bea Arthur, whom he met through prison correspondence, fulfilling one of his sect's ancient prophecies.

[mark this for review]

<i>In August 2005 Vikernes married "Golden Girls" actress Bea Arthur, whom he met through prison correspondence, fulfilling one of his sect's ancient prophecies</i>

Hihi, I think that this might be correct! In older times of Burzum.com I saw Varg discuss about predilection for older women, for dating. I will try to find.

Skit, stupid codes.

New comment on your post #378 "\m/ Varg Vikernes does not want me to go to bed!!!! \m/"
Author : jessie lingerfelt (IP: 206.228.253.66 , host66.wrlibrary.org)
E-mail : icep✧✧✧.aborti✧✧✧@ya✧✧✧.c✧✧
URL :
Whois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=206.228.253.66
Comment:
does anybody know anything about wat may be going on with vargs prison sentence as of right now? if so id really like to know so if posible id like any kind of info on its been awile sence ive heard anything about it?

Last news I heard is that his case for release on parole would be re-examined in April. Apparently he does not want a big media exposure about the whole thing so whatever is happening it's not made public, he just wants to 'disappear'.

http://www.burzum.org/img/gallery06/big/photo19.jpg

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=115816

Varg Vikernes (a.k.a. Count Grishnackh) — the former BURZUM mastermind who is currently serving a Norwegian prison term for the August 1993 murder of MAYHEM guitarist Oystein Aarseth (a.k.a. Euronymous) and setting fire to three churches — will soon be a free man.

In September 2008, Vikernes's fourth application for parole was denied, but a couple of weeks ago he finally received the message he has been waiting for: after almost 16 years in prison, he will be released.

"I will have to report [to the parole officer] for one year — initially every two weeks, and then once a month," Vikernes told the Dagbladet newspaper.

Varg's mother, who last year wrote a letter to Dagbladet in which she argued that her son was being unfairly treated by the justice officials who repeatedly denied his parole application, is very relieved that her son will be able to join his family in Bø (a municipality in the county of Telemark, Norway), where he recently purchased a small farm.

"I am very happy that he has been so strong and that he held out," she said. "It will be good for the family that they can be together every day."

For the past couple of years, Varg has been allowed to leave the prison regularly to walk around Tromsø, Norway (where the prison is located) and visit his family: his mother, his wife, eighteen-month-old son and sixteen-year-old daughter.

"I'm ready for society — and I have been for many years," Vikernes told Dagbladet last July . "I have learned from my mistakes and become older. Now I just want to be together with my family. My mind has never been in prison; I think all the time about what I should do on the day that I am released." He added, "I have barely seen my son since he came into the world. Even though I hear his voice on the phone almost every day, it is very tough to not be present while he is growing up. I miss my family. And I look forward the day that I could work on my farm, create music, write books and be with the wife and kids around the clock — and live a normal life. I have received tremendous support from my family. It means a lot."

Last year it was reported that case workers at the Justice Ministry feared that Vikernes would be unable to adjust to life on the outside after his years in jail.

In denying his parole for the second time, the Justice Ministry emphasized that Vikernes escaped from prison in 2003 and that he has ties to neo-Nazi groups.

"I haven't been in contact with them for a long time. Police security services know this," Vikernes previously told the VG newspaper.

Varg Vikernes (a.k.a. Bob Weir)

!!

Sadly, I read Vargsmål.

Here is a quote:

"Drugs are to a larger degree used and misused. Either it is considered to be an 'adult' with coffee or 'cool' with pot and cola."

No shit.

that cola is pretty cool stuff

i like how he was allowed to make music with a synthesizer in prison, but not with a guitar. (synthpop-fans i guess)

is that motherfucker wearing a pink sweater

http://www.burzum.org/img/gallery06/big/photo19.jpg

NOT so necrotic, varg. not so necrotic at all.

Varg can wear any damn color sweater he likes!!

Bonnie 'Prince' Vargy

It's like Hello Kitty Darth Vader :-/

i like how he was allowed to make music with a synthesizer in prison, but not with a guitar. (synthpop-fans i guess)

― Ludo, Monday, April 13, 2009 9:21 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

He could have had either, but he had to choose one.

looks like he chose the beard

Didn't he decide that guitars were too 'black' but synths were an Aryan instrument so he was OK with that? Kinda think he might be the only person ever to hold that opinion

http://www.famouslikeme.com/articleimages/41541_0.jpg

lonely guy just thinking baout things

decided metal could be traced back to blues so he wasnt down with it

think he's the only bm dude to cop to that

BURZUM Mastermind To Be Portrayed By 'Twilight' Heartthrob In 'Lords Of Chaos' Movie - May 21, 2009

Jackson Rathbone, the teen heartthrob from "Twilight", has reportedly agreed to play Varg Vikernes (a.k.a. Count Grishnackh) — the former BURZUM mastermind who is currently serving a Norwegian prison term for the August 1993 murder of MAYHEM guitarist Oystein Aarseth (a.k.a. Euronymous) and setting fire to three churches — in the upcoming movie "Lords Of Chaos".

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/reviewpics/vargjackson.jpg

Well, whoever wrote this news blurb apparently doesn't know that Varg is already out.

wait so they're actually going forward with that movie??

according to roadrunner

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=120512

i was gonna say i thought he was out

this is one of my fave thread titles btw

i read it to the tune of "The Beast" by the Fugees

oh god this movie is gonna be awful(ly hilarious)

rock movies never get it right

Director is to be Sion Sono. IMDB him. If you've seen his 'Suicide Club', you will realise that getting it right isn't even going to be on the agenda, and that this is going to be batshit crazy beyond belief.

how do you even make this a movie imo like

what

I was just in Bergen, Norway two days ago and tried to get our Norwegian hosts to start talking about Varg's release and its possible effects on black metal and such and they were all sorta meh about it, like, "yeah yeah been there done that, that was like ten years ago dude get a late pass" etc. But it's a weird place for sure in terms of the cultural visibility of this stuff- they said that members of Immortal play at the Jazz Fest and the Norwegian govt. pays doom bands to play in churches now.

^That sounds like a good premise for a movie!

OK I kind of want to live in Norway now.

Varg hates Lords of Chaos. I confess I'm not sure if the man's right about what he claims, but I thought the book was good reading - and balanced.

anyway Varg doesn't look much Tr00 Kvlt Metal in these latest pics. Black metallers get old too!

Director is to be Sion Sono. IMDB him. If you've seen his 'Suicide Club',

oh my GOD!!!!!!!

I love Suicide Club.

it does have some potential to be bananas

ok wait if this is the suicide club dude i am so stoked for how awesome this could be

right???

They are talking about cgi fantasy sequences, so I'm guessing the approach will be something like Peter Jackson's 'Heavenly Creatures', where you see the real-life character's fantasies mixed in with the factual events as they play out: Varg as viking warrior, and as metal teen; Euronymous as black wizard, and as record shop guy, and so on.

Needless to say, I don't think said real-life characters, the surviving ones anyway, are going to be very happy with this at all.

If the movie turns out anything like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ycjun-J9iY - I will definitely be going to see it.

What have they done to Elric? But, yes, I'd expect it to look like this, though with much better music.

That's a point - do the filmmakers have the rights to any of the music? Would be a major stumbling block if they don't, seeing as it's what the story is really about, and I'd expect they'd get total noncooperation from all concerned.

I can totally see this working as a Wallace & Gromit-style claymation film.

stop motion barbie dolls

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/2864411884_9d30c376e7.jpg

"they said that members of Immortal play at the Jazz Fest and the Norwegian govt. pays doom bands to play in churches now"

its so perfect, in some way.

"govt. pays doom bands to play in churches" must be Sunn o))) at the Domkirke? Immortal at a Jazz Fest, I don't know about.

they should go a svankmejer route

with the movie, i mean. i can't speak for Immortal

(though it could only help, i guess)

NO MORTAL can speak for IMMORTAL!

that elric video... omg.

Varg's gone metal again...

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=123193

Varg Vikernes (a.k.a. Count Grishnackh), the BURZUM mastermind who was convicted of murdering MAYHEM guitarist Oystein Aarseth (a.k.a. Euronymous) in August 1993 and setting fire to three churches, has finished writing nine songs for BURZUM's new album, which he hopes to release next year. He tells Norway's Dagbladet that several record labels are interested in issuing the band's first LP in eleven years. "I want take my time [with the album], so that I can get it the way I like it," Vikernes says. "It will be metal and the fans can expect to hear some real BURZUM."

Dagbladet has posted several exclusive excerpts from Varg Vikernes' as-yet-unpublished book which he wrote during his nearly-16-year prison stay. The book contains Varg's personal account of of what transpired in the years from the Norwegian black metal community's inception in 1991 until he was convicted for murder and church fires three years later.

"I am not the 'Count' that has been portrayed in the media," Vikernes tells Dagbladet. "That is just sad. Those who have known me a long time know that what was written about me was not the complete truth. But I am partly to blame for how things were presented in the press. That's why I wrote this book, which I hope to release via a publisher. I will lay this issue to rest and put what happened behind me. I will begin a new phase in life."

Dagbladet: Do you regret the fact that you killed another human being?

Vikernes: "I cannot regret the fact that I took the life of somone who wanted to kill me. I felt threatened by his plans, but it was never my inention to kill."

Dagbladet: Do you think that you can kill again?

Vikernes: "Everyone is capable of killing. But there is less chance that I will kill again, because I've been in that situation before, and so I know better how to deal with it. It is not possible to know how to behave in threatening situations before you even end up in such a situation. Had I been in the same situation today, I would have contacted the police first."

Although his parole application was denied four times — most recently in September 2008 — Vikernes received word in February that he would be released after serving almost 16 years in prison. He was finally allowed to leave this past spring, according to Dagbladet.

Vikernes currently resides in Bø, a municipality in the county of Telemark, Norway. Varg purchased the farm sometime last year and lives on the property with his French wife (whom he met while he was incarcerated) and son.

"It was completely random that we ended up buying a home here," Vikernes tells Dagbladet. "We wanted a quiet and peaceful place with beautiful scenery outside the city. It is so beautiful up here. Here we can be by ourselves. But there is a lot of work that is required to maintain the house, lawn and garden."

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/705/705391/7053911/jpg/active/320x.jpg

just about to post this

"Drugs are to a larger degree used and misused. Either it is considered to be an 'adult' with coffee or 'cool' with pot and cola."

Still dying over this.

http://i31.tinypic.com/28w30h1.jpghttp://i29.tinypic.com/34gxb2p.gifhttp://i26.tinypic.com/a2zza1.gifhttp://i32.tinypic.com/f3ufjc.jpgA FULLY LOADED CITRUS SODA-Old slogan 1996-2001/ FEED THE RUSH-Old slogan 1997-2001/ SHOCK THE SYSTEM-New slogan 2003 or 2004/ IT'S NOT JUST A SODA, IT"S A WAY OF LIFE-Possible New slogan 2004 or 2005

For what it's worth, it's pretty common in Norway to call cocaine "cola".

If the new album has 2 seconds as awesome as "this is HØHHH! WAUH!" it will be a triumph. Dear Varg, please do more stuff like that - you know random shouts and grunts are the main reason Celtic Frost is the greatest band ever.

tom gabriel warrior's syndrome

dude in Corvettes on the west coast used to refer to cocaine as cola in the seventies, I know because my dad was dating their moms & I would hang around in their bands' practice rooms eavesdropping

Did not know this about "cola"! Feelin mad naive tbh.

If the new album has 2 seconds as awesome as "this is HØHHH! WAUH!" it will be a triumph.

SECONDED!! Btw, is this his only recorded English!? I haven't slept in a long time and may be forgetting something obvious

Life Story of Varg Vikerness to Become a Film

o_O

Ugh sorry, false alarm... Everyone already knew. Looks like I've been living under a rock.... :-|

No worries. Now that you mention it, I don't think anyone's linked this interview with the director:

http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/channeling-chaos-an-interview-with-sion-sono/

Darn it. Adult Content filtered.

"This article is giving me bizarre thoughts of say, scenes of Varg killing Euronymous being made into lowbrow comedy."

As opposed to Varg's descriptions of the murder of Euronymous which play like. . . lowbrow comedy.

Interesting interview. I will see this Lords of Chaos movie no matter how bad it is. That's the sad thing about being a sucker.

I think the movie will actually be pretty good. Whether or not it anything to do with the actual story (whatever that is) is another thing altogether.

SS: Yes. Almost all the money is prepared for this picture but we need a little more, because in this movie many churches burn. It costs, it’s tough, maybe five churches will be burned.

LOLOLOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/primrosehill/curches.jpg

Someone needs to do a quick cost analysis of real churches burning vs cgi churches burning.

Low brow comedy, murder, and couple of church burnings, this sounds awesome...

I'm just hoping everyone gets dialects like in Fargo.

is varg seriously threatening to butthouse dude over this movie

Probably not seriously, but it makes for great copy, doesn't it?

yeah if anything varg's definitely proven he's all talk

Hah well not ALL talk.

Time to start that PR campaign for the new album already:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2010/01/26/nyheter/innenriks/brann/honefoss/10112981/

(Dagbladet): Hønefoss church is on fire.

- It's full guy, confirming operations manager at Nordre Buskerud Police District to Dagbladet.

Hønefoss church is a church. The church was consecrated on 10 December 1862, according to the homepages Ringerike kommune. Read more about Hønefoss kirke here.

The pastor of the church Hønefoss, Tor Magnus Amble, was informed of the church guardian of the fire.

- I threw myself in the car and drove down here. Now I stand outside and watch the church burn down, "said Amble to Dagbladet.

According to parish priest, the church was burnt when the fire department came to the place. He does not believe that his work and the meaning meeting place could be saved.

- Now it's only fire fighting that remains. The entire building is going to burn down. It is to cry out, "said Amble.

it's really sad that a bunch of beautiful buildings had to die for all this shitty metal

it's kinda disgusting all these self pitying adult man-children flinging their poop at the world, you know? like seriously they should all shut the fuck up and die

(sorry y'all actually cuz i know some of you cool peeps dig this music but something about this morning at the gym one of the trainers was playing all this nu-metal/post-nu-metal woe is me rock and it was juxtaposed with the news on TV and i kinda was just like god i am so sick of all these dumb fucks with stupid beards and shit yelling shit over super compressed guitars) (ugh)

(varg may be a genius i've never heard his stuff)

is this particular burning black metal-related?

I mean I <3 Burzum a lot and stuff but I'm with ya Matt, and those churches probably had a lot more meaning to some people than say guys like you and I and whoever who think old historical buildings are neat.

Can't read Norwegian, but this was in today's paper, so I'm guessing they're not sure yet about the how/who/why. Sad tho. Black metal is the antithesis of nu-metal, btw.

Yeah black metal isn't exactly very woe is me.

i kinda was just like god i am so sick of all these dumb fucks with stupid beards and shit yelling shit over super compressed guitars

dude, get your facts straight! black metal is a bunch of dumb fucks with stupid makeup and shit screaming over super trebly guitars.

It's not gym music.

xp

black metal is more like woe is you

i dunno i read all this shit that this varg dude says and he sounds like a coward and a loser like most racist ppl like skinheads and shit

i know the lyrics aren't woah is me, i'm talking about these guys worldview

varg is a pussy

"he sounds like a coward and a loser"

I can't disagree with that at all.

i mean he really is a weasel.

Or that.

I dunno, a lot of those lyrics are about being sad and the night is a pretty lady and oh darnit I might as well go to hell, what! Also, crying orcs.

No news here about the cause of the fire, btw.

Woe is orcs.

he's right, though, the night is a pretty lady

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yah m@tt i agree w/you on varg as a person, and am obv wildly anti-NSBM, but theres a lot of black metal that isnt that flavor of dumb, i mean Wolves in the Throne Room are all into cuddling w/trees and shrubs

Woe is shrubs.

(not that they are teh best example of BM, i just think they're cuter than most with their hippie stuff) xpost

i heard that they butcher their own goats, which is pretty \m/

like they all live in a self-sufficient commune in the northwest somewhere, living off the land and making black metal

The concept of Wolves in the Throne Room is better than the music of Wolves in the Throne Room sadly.

wrong

no Alex is OTM

Shits in the Bath Room more like

and not to start shit but really

it's really sad that a bunch of beautiful buildings had to die for all this shitty metal

it's also sad a bunch of norwegians had to die for those beautiful buildings imo which is the actual point of churchburnings, which I agree are childish & don't accomplish anything & hurt people who don't deserve it. but they're not just "I'm a vandal"

imo

their music is way better than their concept imo.

xposts

"it's also sad a bunch of norwegians had to die for those beautiful buildings imo which is the actual point of churchburnings"

I think these guys have retroactively tried to make that actual point, but in all honestly I think the original point was closer to "I'm a vandal!"

true enuf but the point as varg makes it in one of roxy's posts upthread is well-put and worth consideration even if, yeah, I don't think it's cool to burn down a nice old church

iirc most of the black metal arsonists were basically teenagers weren't they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia

kinda interesting

xxp Totally agree, I just think it's work noting that Varg is making that point some years after. It's has little to do with what, I think anyway, the initial motivations were (which were frankly pretty childish in thought as well as deed.)

iirc most of the black metal arsonists were basically teenagers weren't they?

yes but I am of the opinion that teenager isn't a synonym for dumbass - even when teenagers do dumb shit I think of teenagers as intelligent passionate dumb-in-deed-but-not-in-substance human beings

corny I know but that is like a core thing w/me.

from what I remember of being a teenager, most of them are actually dumbasses

then again I grew up in dumbass teenager Mecca so my sample is likely skewed

i tend to believe they were some stupid fucking potheads all het up on their own little fantasy worlds, plotting some fictional "crusade" against the imaginary forces allied against them, plotting out schemes in dungeon apartments all filled up with boogers and hairballs and ugly posters and empty bottles and garbage and one day they finally got fucked up enough or delusional enough to actually try something

j0hn for how you are usually mr. moral (which i actually admire) in a lot of threads on ILM i think it's weird the mental gymnastics you go through to play captain save-a-metal-idiot

yeah I would think that trying to understand what makes dumb teenagers do dumb shit, how they ended up all fucked up, is kinda part of my mr. moral deal. I don't think anything is accomplished by decrying what total fuckin' assholes they are. the behaviors isn't meaningless expression of assholism. plus also I love heavy metal so what can you do y'know.

like this:

one day they finally got fucked up enough or delusional enough to actually try something

no. flatly no. the behavior has meaning. it's more useful to parse that meaning than to say, oh, a bunch of fucked up teens did some shit that sucked. and, in my opinion, truer.

ha, part of my problem is that it seems like 80% of the time, the answer to "what makes dumb teenagers do dumb shit" is "they were bored"

a lot of the most fucked up things i did as a teenager were due to directionless rage, but were so pointless in retrospect that even i make the mistake of thinking i did them because i was bored. to be fair, if i had taken strongly to sports, or music, or something along those lines, i might not have been so angry or had enough free time to hatch some of the plots i did.

by the way i think it's really admirable to try to understand people who do things you disagree with or hate. if more people practiced this, we might not be about to trigger a global holy war.

i see what your saying, j0hn, and i do have more sympathy for the boys that they were than the men that they are now (who don't seem to have learned much if anything)

I think maybe what's key here is that explaining the whys of something != justifying it, necessarily?

well actually I think many of them are a little embarrassed by the whole thing. and some of the kvltest were cats from Oslo who weren't actually doing it but got off on it because of the extremity of it, just the "WHOA YOU KNOW THAT ONE CRAZY FUCK? HE ACTUALLY BURNED DOWN A FUCKING CHURCH!" which I mean really, it's asking everybody to be a po-faced moralist like me to demand that they not go "insane! he burned a church for metal! fuckin' A!" But Varg would die before he'd give up the status he can get by being unrepentantly The Guy Who Stands For Burning Churches. It's hardly news that Varg's a dick tho!

xpost

he's a RL troll

I think maybe what's key here is that explaining the whys of something != justifying it, necessarily?

That is absolutely true. However, sometimes attempts to explain something are exercises in projection; there is a tacit presumption going on that casts the person doing the abhorrent thing in your mindset in order for you to come up with a sufficient motivation for their actions. Most of the mean things I did when I was a kid were born out of feeling trapped in a hostile environment combined with thinking life was pointless and transitory after my brother died at age 24, and even then I couldn't muster the will to do anything that would be permanent because I knew that if I kept out of trouble, I'd never have to set foot in that town again unless I was visiting my parents. You could paint this successful child-rearing on my parents' part combined with a pretty comfortable financial situation, but some portion of it included recognition on my part that, no matter how shitty and depressed I felt, I knew that I would be able to get out someday. And I did. And so did the vast majority of my friends. Very few of the kids I considered idiots did.

This has nothing to do with Varg really but it's the longest thing I've written in like 6 months.

man when you think of the people who never got out your heart's gotta bleed a little even if they were dicks don'tcha

maybe not I do though

every time my heart starts to bleed, I think of the dudes/girls who called me a racial slur and that pretty much kills the burgeoning sympathy

yeah i guess i would be more willing to recognize the humanity in dudes like varg if they weren't espousing a "philosophy" (half formed rhetoric) that denied the humanity of others

like, it's easy to feel sorry for someone who has never attacked you, or spat upon you repeatedly, or tried to piss in your locker, or basically spent 6 months making your life a complete and utter living hell, is kind of my underlying not-so-secret thesis here; in looking at these stories, I am much more likely to have sympathy for the people who had to bear the brunt of these frustrations rather than the people expressing them in destructive, wholly inappropriate ways

xpost: OTM

tbf a lot of the dumb destructive stuff dan and i got up to is also kind of facepalm hilarious in retrospect, which prob would not be the case if we'd burned down any churches.

if you guys had burned down some lutheran churches I would be laffing my ass off tbqf

an honest question - how different is the not really tacit but kind of wink wink endorsement that some black metal has from other musical movements (thinking hip hop and grafitti because of the proximity of the vandalistic aspect, or imo the much worse "stop snitchin'" movement (which i know is a big pile of media distorted bullshit, but so is the prominence of church burning per capita so)

xpost it is possible that i or someone very much like me might have done a startlingly quantifiable and prob felonious amount of damage during my teenage rebellion against the oppressive regime of golf courses, which is about as close to burning down a lutheran church as you are likely to get

(as an aside, I read some of that thread where you guys talk about crazy hstngs shit and man I think we had wildly different growing-up-in-werido-small-MN-town experiences)

do you have any seminal anti-golfing records i should be listening to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtZL2RJC5WQ

Really more pro-golf but...

oh you mean Exploring the idiot youth of rural america (some HSTNGS content, but not a HSTNGS thread)

i had forgotten about that thread, i think ill go take a trip down idiot memory lane

re: golf video, i have to admit i enjoyed that much more than filosofem.

Mad props to rabies! I had two Art Phag singles! The other was exactly the same but called Chainsaw!

hmm thread got interesting!

i can kinda feel where j0hn is coming from. part of the impetus to burn an old church appeals to me, in that the burner (maybe) feels the symbolism and intent of the building very deeply. as in, "no this isn't just a nice building for tour groups to go see, it has a specific purpose to carry a set of ideas that i despise." the implication is that varg took the historical meaning of the church itself very seriously, it meant more to him than to people who just thought it was nice.

but this gets me into gore-vidal-defending-tim-mcveigh territory, oh he was just a thoughtful boy who loved freedom, while everyone else went thru life in an unthinking daze...

mcvarg

Speaking as someone who was brought up in deeply religious household and resents his religious indoctrination and education, I still find the concept of looking at churches "nice".

One of the first things I do on holiday is get in some good church, synagogue or mosque action.

Burning them down wouldn't necessarily give me a more nuanced view of religion.

Speaking as someone who cares fuck all for religion, it was really painful to see the before and after pictures of those stave churches. Regardless of political intent, its fucking criminal to destroy beautiful buildings (church or no). I mean, the Catholic religion irritates me to no end and I have so many problems with the institution, but no way in hell could I be okay with a beautiful cathedral being destroyed.

it takes a fuck of a long time to seize power & turn them into libraries tho you gotta admit

the analogy only really works if you agree, on some level, that christianity is worse than n. european paganism, and i don't

reading thru those wiki histories, and others, it looks like xtianity was spread by a combination of popular conversion, elite buy-in, and violence (basically in that order). the non-christians responded with... the exact same shit. but it's not like varg really concerned with any of this, it's all just myth.

xps

humbly submit that wiki histories maybe not the best source for determining how christianity was spread through the pagan countries

when is this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_the_Apostate

gonna get his metal concept tribute album? or has he already

"humbly submit that wiki histories maybe not the best source for determining how christianity was spread through the pagan countries"

Pipe down old man.

hahaha actually in retrospect I missed most of the truly epic dumb stuff (thinking of the J***b W********g fliers here), I was only really around for things like naked trampolining and throwing a can of pop at CB's front door

there appear to be some punk kids on my lawn xpost

(sorry that is so late, I had actual work to do)

"Punk kids get off my interweb!"

STOP GETTING BOND WRONG

i mean just

lol @ the entire nu-metal-at-the-gym overture to the symphony of "the early norwegian church burnings were due to being FUCKED UP and going out to FUCK SOME SHIT UP" could yall be more hilarious

Yeah... I'm not the only one who heard about what happened in Oslo and thought for a second Varg might be involved, right?

Apparently this guy is a christian extremist.

My wife's first comment (after learning it wasn't a muslim extremist) was "probably one of those black metal jerks."

Might have been, but this guy - while certainly a rightist - is not linked to nazi or "viking" groups. He probably has more in common with the Ku Klux Klan, or with rightist extremist party that is currently partly in office in Israel.

what the hell does that mean, geir?

geir's obviously still in a shock

geir is actually varg.

Pet Sounds influenced his most black metal efforts.

what the hell does that mean, geir?

He describes himself as a friend of Israel, and makes a point out of how he is on a crusade against Islam. He has also in various forums described himself as a conservative Christian. Basically, and extremist edition of the American religious Right.

kind of agree w/Geir tbqf

Yeah, Geir's interpretation squares with everything I'm reading. If this guy was an American he'd be living in Hayden Lake, Idaho, basically.

i don't know how that makes his ideology similar to those in power in israel.

this is coming from the same person who doesn't think they had "music" in africa prior to western colonization, though. he should know from racism.

ooh boy

this is one of my fave thread titles btw

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, May 25, 2009 8:09 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i read it to the tune of "The Beast" by the Fugees

― death cab for kudi (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, May 25, 2009 8:10 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Varg has now weighed in.

For some reason I'd never quite realised the extent of this guys assholishness, till I read that.

I can't open that site at work. Any chance you could c&p it here?

Oh you don't want to know, would also possibly attract the wrong sort of random googler

to sum up for michael white: Varg doesn't know if this guy is actually a left-wing plant like everyone says he is, but you know he's a christian right and christians are jews. also, don't kill kids.

it's just not okay.

Also, Varg thinks this guy isn't doing the "real cause" a favor, because the "real cause of all evil", the jews, yet again get a pass while "we are killing each other".

I don't mind ppl being anti-Xtianity (or anti-Islam or Judaism or whatever) but it's telling that European anti-semitism creeps in to it and I never really understand the intensity of hatred when one can just walk away. I'm glad Varg is making the important point that killing kids isn't cool, though.

Pretty sure he could be persuaded that killing Jewish kids isn't so bad

Well they would have already been Jews, although I guess they still had the chance to renounce their jewishness.

Hard to believe I've heard people argue that Varg is coherent and eloquent.

Not fans of his music are they, by any chance?

I guess? I can't imagine thinking he's made great record = he's a great thinker, but maybe it does for some people...

I expect Varg develop his hatred of the Jews and all their works as a result of coming into frequent contact with Norway's gigantic Jewish community

what a cool guy, i'm so glad white indie rock kids continue to praise him as a cult figure

Yes well see that's thing about this tiny tiny group of people. Even when you think they aren't influencing things, THEY ACTUALLY ARE!

this dude is definitely past my "I can still enjoy the music" line

then again so is Chris Brown so it's not like it's a particularly difficult line to cross, lol

"i'm so glad white indie rock kids continue to praise him as a cult figure"

Beats obsessing over Charles Manson, I guess.

I just looked him up on wiki. His thinking is so old and lame, it's as tedious as it is loathesome.

Yeah, Geir's interpretation squares with everything I'm reading. If this guy was an American he'd be living in Hayden Lake, Idaho, basically.

a few months ago Geir was arguing that these people don't exist in Europe lol

as for Varg, eh this is all par for the course.

Y u no shut up and make musics, vag? :-(

vag

vag

it's sad he was a musical vagina

VV's a drooling bellend. Brevik's manifesto was clearly cut and pasted from a load of different conspiracy sources on the internet such as the Unabomber's statement and suchlike, with the proper noun 'Norway' substituted for 'America'. You can see the joins in it.

Varg Vikernes: "Grrrrr! I'm evil! I'm a bad man! But don't kill kids! Wait until they're in their late teens!"

What a pathetic cunt.

what a cool guy, i'm so glad white indie rock kids continue to praise him as a cult figure

I would like to see these "indie rock kids" strawmen that praise him as a cult figure. I know plenty of people that will defend his music but distance themselves from anything political, social, or religious he spouts, but I can't name one single person that "praises him as a cult figure".

Strawy G. Stickman

"vag" was inspired by someone's contribution to the "your favourite misread thread titles" thread about this very thread. Every time it's revived I remember :-)

(Three years ago, by enbb and hi dere himself)

Does this guy get a black metal hipster pass for the murder but not for the anti-semitism? I remember someone (idiot ex-bandmate, in fact) telling me I had to consider the church burning in the context of Norwegian society, probably the murder too, but no-one seems to defend him at all any more. Poor Vag.

Yeah, everyone's eligible for one church burning, but we have to do it before we turn 20.

Westboro Baptist iirc

so many of my fave ilx quotes/ideas are on this thread

"black metal is more like 'woe is you'"

ilx METAL quotes/ideas i meant

can we have the thread title amended to reflect his actual name? the 'r' in there is bothering me...

CURCHES

/what a cool guy, i'm so glad white indie rock kids continue to praise him as a cult figure/

I would like to see these "indie rock kids" strawmen that praise him as a cult figure. I know plenty of people that will defend his music but distance themselves from anything political, social, or religious he spouts, but I can't name one single person that "praises him as a cult figure".
--jon /via/ chi 2.0

I don't know where you live, but my neighborhood is filled with skinny Steve albini looking motherfuvkers riding the subway in burzum shirts. That's not "distancing themselves" from anything

half those people have never heard a note of burzum in their lives though, I mean you 100% know that

If you find the shirts distasteful you should have considered that before moving to the Churchburningsville neighborhood.

I would like to see these "indie rock kids" strawmen that praise him as a cult figure. I know plenty of people that will defend his music but distance themselves from anything political, social, or religious he spouts, but I can't name one single person that "praises him as a cult figure".

Banks Violette

I mean, Williamsburg based artist's solo show at the Whitney consists of burned out church scaffolding made out of blowtorched salt, placed on drum risers. That said, he's a metal guy, not an indie rock kid

I don't know where you live, but my neighborhood is filled with skinny Steve albini looking motherfuvkers riding the subway in burzum shirts. That's not "distancing themselves" from anything

Last time I saw N1(k from Vice he was sporting a Burzum shirt in Food Swings. Have to back up Whiney on this one.

that is a pretty specific cross-section of a cross-section of a population, there

this is one of my fave thread titles btw

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, May 25, 2009 8:09 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i read it to the tune of "The Beast" by the Fugees

― death cab for kudi (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, May 25, 2009 8:10 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol ditto

nobody denies that Whiney sees dudes in Burzum t-shirts. whether they'd be able to tell Burzum from Bathory on an unmarked mixtape is another q

Yeah I have no idea. People's relationships to the band shirts they wear is something I can't puzzle out these days. Unless they are an actual metalhead in which case I always assume it's a non-post-modern 'i like this band' thing.

Right but id'ing the music is separate from praising him as a cult figure.

And I do get the impression that particularly the church burning is actually quite forgiven or excused. The nazism/murder perhaps less so.

Although even the murder some people do try to sorta justify with "well Euronymous was threatening him too" etc.

See: Amy Phillips takes a Black Metal tour on PFork thing and the guide playing that card.

http://www.nocleansinging.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Varg-2012-promo-2-e1333238263659.jpg

How has no-one posted this picture yet?

http://www.radiometal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/varg-hunter-2012-02.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1r6hofzpX1r280mvo3_1280.jpg

Looks tired in that last pic. Chainmail very heavy, I guess.

i like to think those are meant for okcupid

hey now bro that man is MARRIED

This is my favourite:

http://www.thedailyrock.com/wp-content/uploads/247ab__photo203-572x858.jpg

Someone should shop Rob Darken into that pic.

Bros for life & all...

What is the context of these photos? Facebook? Norwegian Details mag or something?

http://wonkette.com/assets/resources/2007/04/cd-thumb.jpg

They're the promo photos for his last album.

If you go to burzum dot org and look in the photos section there's a load more there ("Umskiptar" promo 2012). Not sure I want to post a link...

I don't know where you live, but my neighborhood is filled with skinny Steve albini looking motherfuvkers riding the subway in burzum shirts. That's not "distancing themselves" from anything

― Fareed Zaireeka (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 15 August 2012 13:51 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hi Whiney, its me, from ILX
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/254750_232556050115161_5081183_n.jpg

nothing against anyone who just posted to ILX, but i have a very hard time with burzum/varg as an icon/meme. i was a semi-vocal fan of the early burzum stuff for a while, but after a certain point, i realized i couldn't justify any kind of endorsement, no matter how "purely aesthetic".

maybe 100 years from now the music will have become culturally neutral and my descendents won't be empowering armies of murderous bigots by saying kind words about "jesus' tod", but in the here and now, dude should be ignored, thrown away, fucking wiped from history. his work should not be mentioned, his records should not be played, and his shirts should not be worn by anyone, ever.

Post-viking pics, never before has a convicted murderer, arsonist, and racist been so difficult to take seriously

I'd say, in Portland at least, every one of those kids wearing the shirt at least owns and listens to Filosofem.

I was given a very cool Burzum shirt that I wish I could wear out. It's been buried in the bottom of a drawer since I received it. Don't think I'm going to find an event where it's appropriate to wear it out, especially after the local Anti-Fa group here decided I might be a "fascist sympathizer" for booking some dates for Allerseelen (who are really nice guys, if a super corny band).

especially after the local Anti-Fa group here decided I might be a "fascist sympathizer" for booking some dates for Allerseelen

haha this is some 21st cent woody allen/"people's front of judea" type stuff here

haw haw, used to go to metal shows in the late 90s and some anti fascist league guy (well, my friend i went to the show with)passed around xeroxed fliers about burzum's nazi history and how you should boycott them or something. i was sorta into them then and was even subscribed to the burzum mailing list, and damn, those were some freaky ass people. once it got into blacks, jews, and all that shit, i decided to get out of bm and embrace the limp wristed serenity of indiedom to atone for my sins.

well hey lets not paint all black metal with the burzum brush here

well yeah, not all bm is nazi ... most of it isn't. i just remember there being a white power/nazi undercurrent somewhere whenever bm was involved. this was the 90s, though, so side-flipped undercut guy's probably not all about that.

but ya know, if you're familiar with burzum to any degree, it's hard not to associate them with hardcore nazi stuff, because that was the Total Burzum Experience from what i remember.

haha this is some 21st cent woody allen/"people's front of judea" type stuff here

― goole, Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:44 AM (57 minutes ago)

Haha, tell me more. I really love being the guy with Jewish blood that's accused of sympathizing with fascists. Especially because I don't.

Dwight, I def don't live in a town with skies that blue!

half those people have never heard a note of burzum in their lives though, I mean you 100% know that

― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, August 15, 2012 8:57 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nobody denies that Whiney sees dudes in Burzum t-shirts. whether they'd be able to tell Burzum from Bathory on an unmarked mixtape is another q

― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:47 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

well if people are wearing band shirts of a guy whose music they don't really listen to, then ok the issue is purely an Alex In NYC "how dare Shania Twain wear a Ramones shirt!" rant type thing and it clearly means people AREN'T fetishizing a guy who's mainly known for being a nazi murderer and Whiney has no point, yeah, sure.

if you wear the shirt and don't know the music then... it must be the extra-musical shit you're representing? ie the nazi-murdery stuff? or 'un-PC controversy' in a pigfuck way, at least.

but ya know, if you're familiar with burzum to any degree, it's hard not to associate them with hardcore nazi stuff, because that was the Total Burzum Experience from what i remember.

Dude pretty much ruined his career anyway with the murder and the nazi shit. On the basis of those first 4 records alone he could've just lay back and let himself be canonized as a Tom G Warrior or Lemmy-type scene godfather. Instead he killed his mentor and went full retard paranoid nutcase, all reputable record labels immediately lost interest, mags wouldn't place his ads, he has to pay back everything he'll ever earn to restore that church, and nobody will ever run a serious article on his music.

Meanwhile, surprised nobody has commented on Umskiptar, quite interesting record and definitely a big step out of the normal Burzum comfort zone. Concept album based on a 13th century poem, mostly spoken word & clean chants over slow, long folkish songs...not all of it works but if he continues reinventing himself like this I'm not complaining.

i figure i'll listen to it after he dies

if you wear the shirt and don't know the music then... it must be the extra-musical shit you're representing?

When I was in early high school those dancing bears/logo Grateful Dead shirts were popular among a group of kids. I don't think any of them were at all interested in the music, and I'm pretty sure they weren't really stoners.

maybe they were all architecture dudes who really don't like stave churches

i figure i'll listen to it after he dies

just being mean, i mean, i hardly expect to outlive anyone

a significant proportion of our population is over 60, I think you'll do fine

well if people are wearing band shirts of a guy whose music they don't really listen to, then ok the issue is purely an Alex In NYC "how dare Shania Twain wear a Ramones shirt!" rant type thing and it clearly means people AREN'T fetishizing a guy who's mainly known for being a nazi murderer and Whiney has no point, yeah, sure.

no, it's more complicated than that - Shania wears a Ramones shirt to a photoshoot. A photoshoot and your social life are two different things.

wearing a "coming soon to church near you" shirt as i read this

For a lot of people a Burzum shirt only means "look how much of a rebel I am, I'm vaguely associating with danger and controversy" - it's like all those christians who own Apple devices just because it's the biblical Forbidden Fruit.

Varg's story is so ubiquitous, though, that I'd hazard a guess that it's probably the very first thing anybody learns about Norwegian black metal. It was the first thing I was told about when a friend first played me "Freezing Moon". It is the anecdote non-NBM people recall when conversation turns to any NBM band. I mean, I'm not a metal guy but several times it has gone "oh, you went to the Mayhem show? Is that the one where somebody got killed? What's the story again?" et cetera, invariably people's curiosity is piqued by that story.

I once stupidly asked a Norwegian promoter over dinner if any visiting bands had asked for tours of the sites where it all went down, and he expressed frustration that Varg's story had become synonymous with a scene that was richer than that. He expressed derision toward Banks Violette's show-- which was beautiful, if you were charitable to its potentially exploitive angle.

Me, I don't give a shit about people wearing Burzum t-shirts because some people might just like to listen to Burzum, where do you draw the line, I listen to Death In June, etc. But I do understand that to some people a Burzum t-shirt has come to signify "Hello, I am reducing an entire genre of music to one anecdote!" and I sympathize.

to me, wearing a Burzum t-shirt means you are saying "on some level, I'm cool with racism"

yeah

how about a cream shirt though? (the most opposition I run into in the outside world, when criticizing bands for their racism, is when I bring up eric clapton)

xp Burzum is a pretty cut-and-dry case, so: sure. Others would say that if you watch a Polanski movie, you're cool with statutory rape. So I basically don't pass judgement, I just hope said Burzum-clad dude knows what's up

smiths shirt, public enemy griff era shirt, etc

polanski isn't a heroic symbol to and author of inspirational tracts for legions of organized, armed child-rapers, though. that's the difference. that's why the comparisons to cream, smiths and public enemy mean nothing.

the problem isn't that varg is a racist dude who said some racist shit, tut-tut, like mel gibson or something. he's an important symbolic figure to organized racist hate groups worldwide. you support him, you support them. you praise his music, you ennoble their cause.

i think you are overstating the idea that there are legions of peeps that find him a symbolic figure of racism - theres plenty of skr3wdr1ver and b0und f0r g10ry shirts out there. also the idea that praising his music ennobles the cause of racism is str8 up incorrect.

generally dudes that are this shit arent looking for oblique at best lyrics that might hint at racism, they are down with the full on race war lyric stuff, which is in ready supply for assholes that want a musical flag-bearer for their bullshit.

(note: i agree with others on here in that i dont recall any actual racist lyricism on the burzum records i have listened to, but hey i dont speak norwegian or norse elf or whatever hobbity thing dude is up to these days, so i am not going to go all in on that supposition).

difference of opinion. i spent a long time working this out for myself, cuz i was quite a fan at one point. i mean, we all know that there are legions of aryan/odinist/whatever-inclined white power assholes that seek inspiration from racist black metal, though mostly in europe, and i've been led to believe that varg is an important figure in those circles (maybe this isn't true, i dunno).

his elevation as an "important artist" threatens too lend legitimacy to such views, imo, and i don't want to be a part of that. i'd rather see him forgotten completely or written off as a pathetic hack. let history recover him from the dustbin if it cares to.

uh, "threatens to lend"

I once stupidly asked a Norwegian promoter over dinner if any visiting bands had asked for tours of the sites where it all went down, and he expressed frustration that Varg's story had become synonymous with a scene that was richer than that.

I played a club where Gaahl was (at the time anyhow) occasionally working the door and made the promoter see if there was any way to get him down there that night but no go :(

to me, wearing a Burzum t-shirt means you are saying "on some level, I'm cool with racism"

To me it says "on some level i'm cool with people assuming that i'm cool with racism". Even if you aren't racist and can personally disassociate yourself from the band's political context, a pretty significant percentage of the people who are familiar with the name are going to take it as a deliberate show of far-right sympathies. Given the potential for that to make people who aren't white uncomfortable, it's kind of good manners to put fanboy support to one side and not wear the fucking things.

I just got my two burzum shirts because the design is cool/gross.

Fair enough. Does the potential for misinterpretation of what wearing the shirt signifies not bother you, though?

also the idea that praising his music ennobles the cause of racism is str8 up incorrect.

You do not understand my position, which is better stated as "I am cool with racists as long as they make awesome music", which necessarily involves tolerating the racism of the person creating the music.

Morrissey is a dick and a jackass and I have not spent a dime on any of his solo music and have purchased all of my Smiths CDs used.

Professor Griff is a dick and a jackass who got kicked out of Public Enemy for his racism, which tells me what I need to know about the band's position in order for me to feel okay with purchasing their stuff (which I've mostly bought used anyway, and only two albums).

I think about this shit a good 80% of my waking life (given who I am and where I grew up, this shouldn't be a big shock/surprise) and I try to avoid supporting artists who espouse racist shit as best as I can. The one blind spot I have is Siouxsie Sioux and it pisses me off to no end that I like that band so much given some of the shit she's said and done. I'm not going to lie and say I don't have some amount of envy for people who aren't in a position where they don't feel they have to obsess over this kind of thing and that that envy doesn't sometimes manifest as resentment, because it does. That doesn't change the fact that my first reaction to people talking about these artists is always and likely always will be "cool, you've made peace with racism".

the "ennobles the cause of racism" thing was more my argument tho

Professor Griff is a dick and a jackass who got kicked out of Public Enemy for his racism, which tells me what I need to know about the band's position in order for me to feel okay with purchasing their stuff (which I've mostly bought used anyway, and only two albums).

also, griff had fuck all to do with making any of PE's music

It seems like everyone feels enormous pressure to take a really definitive, ethically reasoned, intensely thought-out position on Varg/Burzum, in a way that we pressure ourselves to do very rarely in music or in anything else. I'm admittedly a n00b to it all and have just gotten into Burzum in the past few months, but I dunno, I just try and absorb the music and dig it for what it is. I really dig his shit, for the most part. It's singular and creative and homemade-feeling in a great way and just fun to listen to. Sure I'm interested in his backstory, but I try not to get too wrapped up in it. Maybe that's not right of me, but there's a part of me that's like, I just don't want all this baggage nor even the dude himself's fucked-up views and writings getting in the way of my engagement with the music he's made.

I just try and absorb the music and dig it for what it is.

Music and cultural "taste" is backed up with correct arguments and facts, not "digging".

"Correct"?

And I'd argue that taste has VERY little to do with facts--arguments perhaps, but definitely not empirical data.

Banaka!!!

Music exists, there for it is empirical and subject to logical discussion.

And yes, correct arguments. We are correct 99.6789997% of the time, so our word has more weight than an uninformed opinion. Consider this an opportunity to educate yourself.

Banaka, Burzum gets all the "this music is a cut above" love from people, even people who aren't that into black metal. But Mayhem's Ordo ad Chao seems leagues better than literally anything Burzum's ever done. Does the entity known as Banaka take a position on this outstanding Mayhem album?

We reject all guitar-based music.

burzum's music is so fucking corny

So much great metal is corny.

One of these days some AI lab is going to use this place as a Turing test and I hope I'm still here.

burzum's music is so fucking corny

― Fareed Zaireeka (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:35 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So much great metal is corny.

― Clarke B., Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:41 AM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Perplexing. Do you have synesthesia? We normally would not have associated the aural experience of "heavy metal" music with the taste of maize.

I'm not a Burzum fan but yeah one of the very best things about being a metal geek is not needing to stress about what's corny

This apparent widespread cross-wiring of sensory inputs among listeners of "heavy metal" might prove to be worth researching for our database.

Aero mfotm re Ordo Ad Chao; anybody who says "But I dig Burzum's music" on a good day has taste in opposition to my own

See, that's my point! How many other musicians do we say things like that about, "taste in opposition to my own"? I'd rather listen to Darkthrone 9 times out of 10 anyway, but still.

That's my own "critical" language, public forum etc., I'd be just as charitable to say _________ who I despise utterly.

say

It seems like everyone feels enormous pressure to take a really definitive, ethically reasoned, intensely thought-out position on Varg/Burzum...

― Clarke B., Wednesday, August 15, 2012 6:02 PM (2 hours ago)

well, i'm really the only one doing that. it's part of the brand i'm beta-ing.

Not trying to single you out at all, tend... I just feel, from this thread and others, that a lot of folks like to make it very open and known to what degree they think Varg is a reprehensible guy. Some pals I've talked to IRL do this as well. There's another thread in which j0hn makes a point about the discourse surrounding an artist being a form of support--his point being (if I recall) that we don't just lend an artist "support" via directly purchasing his music or seeing him live, but also through contributing to a public discourse about him and keeping his profile at a certain level. That rings true for me, and part of me feels that harping on how much one finds him morally repugnant is simply stoking that fire from a different angle. I'd much rather just talk about why I think his music's good. I think there's plenty to talk about there, too.

aero's posting in that thread influenced my thinking on this, tbh. that's why i was saying earlier that i'd rather he was simply forgotten, thrown away. it's probably true that a negative stance pays reputation-burnishing attention just as a positive one does, but ideas like these have to be articulated if they're ever to take hold. simply ignoring the judiciously burzum-appreciating status quo only allows it coalesce into canon.

in a way, binning burzum is a gift to posterity. music nerds love to rescue stuff from obscurity, to reappraise the underappreciated. by passively insisting that varg's music is entirely without value, we give them something to rediscover, should they care to...

i'm skeptical of anyone who claims to like burzum and not be at least partially interested in the varg spectacle. also, it's natural human behavior to be titillated by crazy dudes burning down churches. u don't have to approve of an accident to want to rubberneck

How can anyone wear a Ramones shirt now we know about what they were like in person?

You wear the shirt because:
- you agree with democrat Joey
- you agree with republican Johnny
- you believe in a bipartisan utopia
- you support their living on a tour bus and not talking for nine years solution
- you like how the logo looks (potus etc)
- you like the music and you don't give a shit one of them was a (dem/rep)

?

Burzum is a special case, where you just can't separate the band/project from the asshole. Weird.

Hahahahaha

what if you don't like metal but you like the idea of nordic peoples throwing off their oppressors

i suppose there are other tshirts out there for you

I mean I'll admit there's not much difference between being 1/4 republican and being an unrepentant racist murderer and hate crime aficionado

i don't support the art of vocal, influential, philosophically committed bigots of any sort. a peculiarity of mine. i'll allow someone else to be "brave" enough for that, thanks.

what if you don't like metal but you like the idea of nordic peoples throwing off their oppressors

― goole, Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:20 PM (2 minutes ago)

i'd be more down with this if these fuckers were in any sense oppressed - and if the church burnings weren't a crime against art and history on the level of the taliban's destruction of those buddhist statues.

http://av-geek.com/d/11345-10/Its+a+Joke+Son+1947.jpg

don't fuck with my opprobrium

seemed like a good excuse to work my "crime against art and history" thing in. you have to imagine the flash pots.

Burzum is a special case, where you just can't separate the band/project from the asshole. Weird.

I'd argue that there are probably two separate issues. One is the music, which boils down to individual conscience, the other is the t-shirt which, to some degree, might not. Someone wandering around listening to Burzum or Skr3wdriv3r on their iPod makes zero impact on the people they come into contact with, someone wandering around flashing a sign that they <3 those bands might not. If someone who isn't white walks into a bar and sees a bunch of guys in Burzum / Skr3wdriv3r t-shirts in there, or walks down a dimly-lit street and sees a dude in a Burzum / Skr3wdriv3r t-shirt coming towards them and is made to feel uncomfortable, or even threatened by that, it stops being all about the dude in the t-shirt.

I thought nobody actually listened to Skr3wdriv3r except actual racists because Skr3wdriv3r's music is hideously incompetent drivel

There are certainly some people who don't see themselves as racist who like the earlier work.

But Mayhem's Ordo ad Chao seems leagues better than literally anything Burzum's ever done.

I also find it somewhat disingenuous to make no artistic/moral distinction between Burzum and Skrewdr1ver, in the same way there's a difference between a Polanski film and actual kiddi3 pr0n. That said, walking around in a Burzum shirt *is* making a statement.

i'm skeptical of anyone who claims to like burzum and not be at least partially interested in the varg spectacle. also, it's natural human behavior to be titillated by crazy dudes burning down churches. u don't have to approve of an accident to want to rubberneck

― Mordy, Thursday, August 16, 2012 12:27 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'd never claim not to be interested in it; it's a pretty riveting story. Don't know if I'd go so far as to say "titillated", and I didn't check out Burzum *because* of the gory stuff surroudning him. I'd heard enough compelling stuff about his music from people I trust, and in fact in some other thread contenderizier mentioned I should probably check out some of his stuff since I was digging on Transilvanian Hunger so much!

I would probably never wear a Burzum t-shirt, though. Unless it just said "HØHHH" on the front and "WAUH!" on the back.

Ordo Ad Chao is a great and very underrated record, but that's just challops - I mean even if you're not really into the repetitiveness, consider the influence it's had on pretty much everyone that came after.

I seriously think Varg has a almost completely tin ear when it comes to atmosphere. He gets in some good riffs, nobody can deny that. You're right about the influence obviously, but mark s liberated me from placing too much weight on influence. Ordo stands with monuments of the genre as far as atmosphere & effect & album continuity imo, it's nearly flawless.

Oh man, I actually think he has a knack for atmosphere... "Tomhet" and "Rundgang der blah blah" being obvious examples, but, like, "Naar Himmeln Klarner"! He gets a lot done in the atmosphere department with very few ingredients. Have you listened to "Jesu Dod" or "Dunkelheit" on a decent setup? There are so many little micro-riffs and layers in there to unpack; I feel like I hear a new flourish every time I listen to those songs. I suppose that sort of complexity isn't at all synonymous with atmosphere but if you're gonna object to the word "influence" mark s-style then I'm not sure how much weight you should afford the word "atmosphere"...

Ordo stands with monuments of the genre as far as atmosphere & effect & album continuity imo, it's nearly flawless.

Tons of ppl stump for all skrewed up the ”pre racist” skrewdriver album

I think theres something gross about white dudes walking around with burzum shirts and not considering the message that could send to ppl for whom racism is more than some internet circle jerk debate club topic

Fair enough, but how many of those ppl really see a Burzum shirt as anything else but just another black t-shirt with a band logo in Olde English font?

How many is not relevant

99.9999% of people you see when wearing a burzum shirt will have no idea who they are, neither will they care.

Several people have said that in this thread... Really? The idea that people would buy a shirt with a word on it and not know what the word meant is very odd to me.

People do things all the time that they don't understand because it's cool on the surface. Same with Burzum ... underground music with a touch of Charles Manson and outsider art. I can understand why art school types would like it, Burzum might just be this decade's Joy Division t-shirt.

If you can't see how the possibility of giving someone the implicit message that you are cool with racism &nazism should outweigh your own ”need” to wear a burzum shirt, and you're older than like 16, I don't know what to say

99.9999% of people you see when wearing a burzum shirt will have no idea who they are, neither will they care.

― Blue Collar Retail Assistant (Dwight Yorke), Thursday, August 16, 2012 10:31 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Several people have said that in this thread... Really? The idea that people would buy a shirt with a word on it and not know what the word meant is very odd to me.

― Clarke B., Thursday, August 16, 2012 10:33 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

pretty sure he meant most of the people that SEE a burzum shirt know who the band is, not most of the people who WEAR a burzum shirt. i'm still kind of puzzled by aero's implication that most of the people who wear burzum shirts haven't listened to burzum albums, which if true is bizarre.

0 - knows no Burzum
1 - "somebody in the NBM scene is a murderer"
2 - has listened to Jesu Dod on Youtube
3 - owns and wears a Burzum t-shirt
4 - can spell Count Grishnackh without checking
5 - Filosofem on the Winamp
6 - owns all albums, has met Necrobutcher but had the decency not to ask
7 - "I will subscribe to your newsletter"
8 - ???

profit, i think

x-post to some dude:

Ah, you're right; I didn't notice the "when" in "see when wearing"... That's kind of an interesting point, actually. I would guess that people tend to wear Burzum shirts more as a wink to other people "in the know"--they fully acknowledge that 99.999% of people they pass won't know what their shirt means, and that the ones that do probably won't come up and punch them for being a racist. Wouldn't be quite the same thing to wear a Charles Manson t-shirt.

Isn't half this sad chump's music super boring Fischer Price My First Dead Can Dance Album (tm) bullshit anyway?

8 - signed original pressing of Daudi Baldrs

xp yeah (8)should be "will defend the music on the prison albums"

-1 - wears the shirt because Burzum's a word from Lord Of The Rings and the letters are maybe Elvish

9 - owns all his books
10 - has read them

lolllll

and that the ones that do probably won't come up and punch them for being a racist. Wouldn't be quite the same thing to wear a Charles Manson t-shirt.

People do things all the time that they don't understand because it's cool on the surface.

yeah but once you're older than 16 surely you see that this is a really stupid thing to do

Agreed. I wore Burzum and Death in June t-shirts in high school, and it struck me that it may not be a cool thing to do ... I imagined if a Jewish friend or something happened to know the death's head symbol or knew what Burzum was about would see it and feel weird, and bottom line didn't like the idea of fronting for the ideas those things represented. Made me feel pretty guilty so never wore them again.

I'm not a Burzum fan but yeah one of the very best things about being a metal classical and film score geek is not needing to stress about what's corny

OTM

You don't need to support Burzum or DiJ shirts if you want to walk around with a Totenkopf on yr chest, just go to Wal-Mart.

good old Wal-Mart

Yeah but I'm sure that's just post addiction graphic design, gone cluelessly awry

Affliction

fretting over how cool your metal music is represents, more than any sun(((o album, the pernicious influence of the hipster (and his associated aesthetic cliches)

whatever, man, your lame metallica patch on that jacket sucks, why don't you listen to real metal like megadeth!

DJP, not that this should in any way redeem him in your eyes, but I thought you should know that he does have a song in his catalog called "The Crying Orc."

just to clarify, did someone up thread basically go for the idea that wearing a burzum shirt is equivalent to wearing a skr3wdr1v3r shirt? because thats bullshit

skr3wdr1v3r t-shirt = fair chance that people who are familiar with the band are going to think you're a racist

Burzum t-shirt = fair chance that people who are familiar with the band are going to think you're a racist

Not particularly interested in whether one is "worse" than the other, more in whether someone from a minority group who sees you in the shirt is going to feel uncomfortable with it.

let me fix that for you

skr3wdr1v3r t-shirt = fair chance that people who are familiar with the band are going to think know you're a racist

I can't lie; I would probably wear a shirt with this thread title on it

xp, So all we're really arguing about is the degree of certainty, not that you're going to be running a significant risk of making people from groups that have traditionally been the victims of racism think you might be a neo-Nazi?

I would think that neo-Nazis who just wanted to vibe out on some good haterock would not necessarily flock to Burzum just because he's a racist, since his lyrics are about forests and stuff.

They did when I was into metal ... the official Burzum mailing list was full of that crap, and white power dudes would message me on IRC about their groups when I'd talk about the band. Then it was hard to be into Burzum without encountering the neo-Nazi side of it. Could be different now, I have no idea. I was primarily into the forests and vibes of the music, but got out pretty quickly when I saw that part of it.

Ick... Yeah, I think I'll stick to the nosebleed seats of somewhat ethically tortured Burzum fandom.

I can't lie; I would probably wear a shirt with this thread title on it

― Clarke B., Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:18 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark

it would have an arrow pointing straight down, right?

lol @ "neo-Nazis who just wanted to vibe out on some good haterock"

xp, So all we're really arguing about is the degree of certainty, not that you're going to be running a significant risk of making people from groups that have traditionally been the victims of racism think you might be a neo-Nazi?

― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:21 PM (37 minutes ago)

nah what i am saying is that one is a just a str8 up obvious racist band with indisputable racist lyrics, and the other is a dude making non-race related music that we know is a murdering racist asshole. theres a valid distinction there - if i see a dude with a swastika shirt, i know whats going on with him for sure, but if he is wearing a custom #88 sports jersey i dont.

it would have an arrow pointing straight down, right?

― some dude, Thursday, August 16, 2012 1:44 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That would be the only shirt in existence to pull off the elusive neo-Nazi-undertone / dick-joke combo

that sounds like a wager to me

xxp, to me, and to a lot of other people, they're both str8 up racist bands. Far more people are aware of the racism than the music if they're familiar with the Burzum name at all. There's certainly a strong possibility that the wearer isn't racist but there's also a fairly legitimate implication that they might be. If i get on a night bus and the only two free seats are next to a guy in a Burzum shirt and a guy in a shirt that has 88 on the back, i'm probably going to choose the one that could be a completely unintentional association.

Wearing a Burzum shirt sends a message out. That message isn't necessarily going to be interpreted in the way the wearer intends. I can't see why anyone would even want to take the risk of making people who aren't white self-conscious or uncomfortable in their presence simply to rep a band they like.

tedious nitpicking but why does racism only make non-white ppl uncomfortable?

a guy in a shirt that has 88 on the back,

woah, what is this a reference to?

With 113 caps and a World Cup winners medals to his name there is no doubt that Buffon is one of the finest goalkeepers of all time. However controversy has followed Buffon since his early days at Parma, where he chose the squad number 88. “H” is the eighth letter of the alphabet and the number 88 is used by neo-Nazi groups worldwide to signify “HH”, or Heil Hitler. [...] As he protested in his autobiography, he chose the number 88 because it contained 4 balls. [...] “We all know what having balls means in Italy,” Buffon declared in his defence

almost! gah, xps!

xp It wouldn't necessarily but "visible minorities" are obviously going to be more of a target for any potential unpleasantness and potentially more sensitive to symbols like that.

http://images.kitbag.com/celtic-82632.jpg?width=350&height=400&quality=95

ah tq merdeyeux

idk man, you can't un-know what you know. the distinction is sort of without-difference. it's not even about authorial intent -- no doubt varg would disagree that what he does is "non-race related music", but that's irrelevant.

we all know that his "about forests and stuff" music is some viking lebensraum type stuff. music about killing other people vs. music about the purity of the old lands or w/e, this is just a matter of vulgarity, but it's the same stuff all around.

it's not even code or hidden or anything, i mean, that blood-and-soil stuff is more classically fascist than killing a bandmate over a beef. (i say this being p unfamiliar with any of this music)

hey jjj, apropos of this thread if we happen to go out for awesome boozes at Moscow on the Hill when I'm home, plz don't wear a Burzum shirt

thx in advance

haha i dont own a burzum shirt, so i dont have an actual horse in this race

aw

lol actually maybe I should get one, and then silkscreen "Makes you think, huh?" on the back and wear it around town

“H” is the eighth letter of the alphabet and the number 88 is used by neo-Nazi groups worldwide to signify “HH”, or Heil Hitler.

Uh oh, half the pho resturants in America are racist.

well look at that, sometimes your own colloquialism can turn on you xxpost to myself

VARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH

you know i've never understood those numbers on vietnamese places

http://www.theinevitablenose.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/varg.jpg

fear the pecs

fear the moobs more like

http://www.nocleansinging.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Varg-2012-promo-2-e1333238263659.jpg

I'm looking for

Girls who like guys
Ages 30-40
Near me
Who are single
For new friends, long-term dating, casual sex

you know i've never understood those numbers on vietnamese places

88 is a lucky number in Chinese (and, by proxy, Vietnamese) because it resembles the characters for "double happiness"

ah ok, i figured it was a date

what about 79?

https://www.google.com/search?q=pho+79

7+9 = 16

16/2 = 8

two eights = 88

DO YOU SEE

what about 79?

my best guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

dude i str8 up looked up '1979' and it's relation to vietnam, on my phone, at Pho 79, just cuz i was so confused

also:

idk man, you can't un-know what you know. the distinction is sort of without-difference. it's not even about authorial intent -- no doubt varg would disagree that what he does is "non-race related music", but that's irrelevant.

this is something i've been thinking about, at least in the sense that i'm pretty sure i first heard burzum-as-music just slightly before i knew about burzum-as-horrible-person. basically what about a (maybe strawman) teenager that is given a burzum CD by a creepy buddy (NO DOUBT IN A BLACK DUSTER, SAYIN), and who digs it, supposed to do when he finds out about vag's dumb beliefs? be all "oh well guess i can't listen to that anymore," or what? like i said: probably a strawman here, since said teenager could just listen to other stuff that's like and maybe better than burzum but lacking the baggage, but still

the only people who have the luxury of entertaining this situation as a conundrum are those who aren't in groups targeted by racists

the chain of thought that goes "oh I like this"/"the person who created it is a massive racist"/"he probably would hate this person I know"/"cool tunes though" is very distinct from "oh I like this"/"the person who created it is a massive racist"/"he hates me"/"shame about the cool tunes, not giving time and money to someone who hates me"

yeah :-/

There's got to be a way of differentiating between "I am a person who is offended by that Burzum t-shirt b/c I know enough about Varg Vikernes to know better" kind of offended and a "my parents were in a gulag why the fuck are you wearing that CCCP shirt you asshole" / "I was beaten by police in Cuba, please don't come to my party wearing a Che shirt" kind of offended.

degree and kind of offense depends more on the nature of the offendee than the nature of the offense, though. think it's specious to pretend that there's no relation between varg's philosophies and real-world hate crimes, or that there's no relation between his philosophies and his music. it's all related.

difference in kind. symbols of political violence v. hatred of a person for their religion, skin color, etc. political violence ends when the regime ends. racism and antisemitism will live on as long the ideas are alive, so it's the idea that's the problem as opposed to a memory of a dead regime.

"I was beaten by police in Cuba, please don't come to my party wearing a Che shirt"

what are you some, some kind of fascist batista thug?

i'll beat you down againb right now!!!

srsly though i am equally offended when i see people at ike turner shows

srsly though i am equally offended when i see people at ike turner shows

― the late great, Thursday, August 16, 2012 3:48 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ike turner shows in the last five years have been pretty weird

just to make clear what you're tacitly endorsing in finding kind things to say about varg's music - from april of this year:

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/war_in_europe02.shtml

This is a reaction to Grethe Bøe-Waal, who the 21st of April 2012 wrote an article for Aftenposten (a "Norwegian" newspaper) titled "The Price of Racism". She talks about her adoptee friend of Asian descent who according to her was driven to suicide by the racism he was exposed to in Norway. She talks about how the racists are responsible for the consequences of their words.

As a Norwegian I react strongly to what she has to say, and would like that she and others like her had a better understanding of reality. Racists are not the problem when Norwegians adopt or in other manners import individuals of other races to our country. The problem is the "anti-racists'" lack of respect for and comprehension of the fact that we actually have a diversity on this planet not only in respect to different animal races and species but also in respect to different human races and even different human species (see www.atala.fr for proof of that)! If you take a look at nature you will see that the various animal races and species do not mix naturally; only animals who have had their insincts broken down by breeding and domestication and in a few rare cases also wild animals who have no alternatives (like animals in captivity) mix with other races or species. If you for example take a dog and place it amongst wolves the wolves will kill it immediately. That's how nature works, whether we like it or not. "Anti-racists" for sure don't like it, for various reasons, but it is wrong to attack racists only because they are exactly how nature intended them to be.

Try to corner an animal and you will see what will happen! Be not surprised when the animal attacks you. Humans are also animals, and people like Anders Breivik act on instinct because you have cornered them. You can actually thank yourselves for the fact that he killed some of you "anti-racists". You have cornered our entire European race! Like Breivik says more and more individuals in the European nations will react with aggression. Finally large groups will revolt. Perhaps even entire peoples. The future does not look bright. The carnage will come – and it is all your fault! This is a consequence of your "anti-racist" policies and your actions! You and those who "educated" you are responsible for this.

he's explicitly justifying racism as "natural", condemning anti-racism as misguided, condemning "race-mixing", and blaming anti-racists for the "natural" violence that results from immigration and interracial relations of any sort. he's also passively endorsing all-out race war.

I think this is where the conversation goes to "that's not in the music though," usually

i think goole's point that white power dipshits always love bullshit thinly disguised racial allegories in the form of half-ass tolkien and norse god warmongering shit stands

otm. the music is the soundtrack. the music articulates the grand "philosophical" and "spiritual" themes that the frankly genocidal racism hides behind. purity, old ways, man in his natural state, the warrior's nobility, etc. facist-romantic horseshit. the music provides artistic legitimacy to the project and gives varg a way to attract others to his underlying ideas.

the guy celebrates anders fucking brevik as a revolutionary hero and explicitly encourages others to follow his lead. he'd be hitler if he had a big enough audience, and it's not like he isn't trying to recruit, "inspire" and lead.

steven fucking tyler OTM

explicitly encourages others to follow his lead.

good thing we have good guys like you contendo to fight back against that

we can hopefully enjoy his music w/o furthering his agenda, just as we can make LOLcats of breivik w/o adding to his fame

just to make clear what you're tacitly endorsing in finding kind things to say about varg's music - from april of this year:

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/war_in_europe02.shtml

_This is a reaction to Grethe Bøe-Waal, who the 21st of April 2012 wrote an article for Aftenposten (a "Norwegian" newspaper) titled "The Price of Racism". She talks about her adoptee friend of Asian descent who according to her was driven to suicide by the racism he was exposed to in Norway. She talks about how the racists are responsible for the consequences of their words.

As a Norwegian I react strongly to what she has to say, and would like that she and others like her had a better understanding of reality. Racists are not the problem when Norwegians adopt or in other manners import individuals of other races to our country. The problem is the "anti-racists'" lack of respect for and comprehension of the fact that we actually have a diversity on this planet not only in respect to different animal races and species but also in respect to different human races and even different human species (see www.atala.fr for proof of that)! If you take a look at nature you will see that the various animal races and species do not mix naturally; only animals who have had their insincts broken down by breeding and domestication and in a few rare cases also wild animals who have no alternatives (like animals in captivity) mix with other races or species. If you for example take a dog and place it amongst wolves the wolves will kill it immediately. That's how nature works, whether we like it or not. "Anti-racists" for sure don't like it, for various reasons, but it is wrong to attack racists only because they are exactly how nature intended them to be._

_Try to corner an animal and you will see what will happen! Be not surprised when the animal attacks you. Humans are also animals, and people like Anders Breivik act on instinct because you have cornered them. You can actually thank yourselves for the fact that he killed some of you "anti-racists". You have cornered our entire European race! Like Breivik says more and more individuals in the European nations will react with aggression. Finally large groups will revolt. Perhaps even entire peoples. The future does not look bright. The carnage will come – and it is all your fault! This is a consequence of your "anti-racist" policies and your actions! You and those who "educated" you are responsible for this._

he's explicitly justifying racism as "natural", condemning anti-racism as misguided, condemning "race-mixing", and blaming anti-racists for the "natural" violence that results from immigration and interracial relations of any sort. he's also passively endorsing all-out race war.

Cool dude, maybe he'd like to go to a Gunplay show with me

i mean honestly just lighten up. do you refuse to listen to megadeth or ted nugent too?

She talks about her adoptee friend of Asian descent who according to her was driven to suicide by the racism he was exposed to in Norway. She talks about how the racists are responsible for the consequences of their words.

i mean i'm really sympathetic about bullying as part of my job but at the same time, no one is ever forced to commit suicide, outside of a vietnamese POW camp

ok i'm listening to this shit on spotify:

song: "feeble screams from forests unknown" - some demon yelling at me over undead meg white sitting in with seasons in the abyss era slayer. has some weird breakdown where he throws a fit about something, lord why is this song 7 1/2 minutes long. these drums are hilarious.

this is like the no-fun version of Caster Volor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCvGwjAYKvg&feature=relmfu

i mean honestly just lighten up. do you refuse to listen to megadeth or ted nugent too?

lol is this a serious question

man this is really terribly produced

xp yeah dude i was listening to hangar 18 today and LOLing about how stupid mustaine is. also the one time i waited on him in my bookstore and it was like dealing w/ a prepuberty garth from wayne's world

this is part of being, you know, in a society as opposed to a desert island

if burzum lyrics were audible racist bullshit, i would probably not be able to tolerate burzum (though i can tolerate prof griff and ice cube, go figure)

but i think it's possible for me to give varg money for his music and to deal with his music and his politics separately, otherwise you disappear down the rabbit hole of "you can't buy any records on DGC or virgin because then you're giving money to babykillling predator drones" leftie freegan scumbag nonsense

late great, you mistake me. I think one should not "enjoy the music." there is plenty of good music to listen to, so you don't have to give oxygen to an asshole like Varg, no matter what his music sounds like.

1st person to get in with some "but where do you draw the line? what if it's a person who doesn't repay his loans?" bullshit gets

http://www.deuceofdavenport.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/3rdbass2.jpg

otherwise you disappear down the rabbit hole of "you can't buy any records on DGC or virgin because then you're giving money to babykillling predator drones" leftie freegan scumbag nonsense

no you don't, at all, this is something you tell yourself to avoid the actual moral content of buying burzum records.

it's pretty easy to not listen to ted nugent or megadeth, people do it everyday

i don't know, i would disagree. i think you have to love the racist and appreciate his contributions to society.

moral dimensions of buying burzum records = same reason i am willing to give my money to the people in my neighborhood who are republicans and fundies and not wanting to start a race war

I have not heard a note of Ted Nugent's music since... 1980? And I never liked Megadeth. It's just incredibly lolsome that you would throw them out there as ubiquitous must-hear artists one has to bend over backwards to avoid when neither of them has been musically relevant in 20 years at best.

well some of the shit you listen to is lolsome to me too ;-)

if we start boycotting every racist in america we end up w/ a resegregated societty

it's only by engaging w/ the racists and drawing them in that we change society

ie ICP dan

anyway as a middle easterner i'm sure breivik and varg would be gunning for me before you j0hn so it's not like this convo is academic to me

dan u haven't heard "If You Can't Lick 'Em...Lick 'Em" or "Love Grenade"??....man u haven't lived :(

a completely incoherent argument you're presenting there late great - whose sole purpose seems to be the shirk ing of moral responsibilities. "engaging" them lol. DON'T BUY SHIT BY NAZIS IS REALLY FUCKING EASY PROPOSITION TO UNDERSTAND AND DOES NOT, TO ANY EVEN REMOTELY SENSIBLE MIND, lead to "oh but can I eat at McDonald's?"

I mean, we're talking about shit you have to ACTIVELY SEEK OUT in order to hear it, so the "where do you draw the line?" question has a pretty easy answer: "don't actively seek this shit out"

also you realize I haven't bought or actively sought out anything recorded by ICP in over a decade, right

"if you say I can't give money to an actual nazi...I don't know man...free speech"

i don't think that mustaine and nugent are comparable, though i don't have much time for either.

varg's an influential "thinker" who's advocating racial violence in a europe that's increasingly consumed by such. i don't object to his music because he has shitty ideas. i reject his music because he's working hard to give his shitty ideas real political power and legitimacy in the world, and his music is part of that. and because lots of other people are both helping him and following his lead. his music is part of that, too.

people are getting hurt and killed in the here and now because of things said and ideas spread by people like varg vikernes. he's an active force for evil in the world. if mustaine and nugent were out there advocating racist genocide, i'd feel exactly the same way about them (admit that it wouldn't surprise me from mustaine at this point).

tbh, i don't think you can enjoy his music without furthering his agenda. unless, maybe, you steal it and never say anything positive about it to anyone. i believe that where burzum is concerned, ignoring and condemning are the only appropriate responses, even if you do legitimately dig the music.

but where do you draw the line contenderizer? money is the root of all evil...so if I spend money...I'm evil...so therefore giving it to nazis...same thing

wait wait wait we are not talking about Listening To Burzum (which is obviously OK, christ), we are talking about buying/making and wearing a Burzum t-shirt

well, as a brown person i make the choices i make and y'all white people have to live with it

i think dr king was right when he said we boycott the bus and sit-in at the lunch counter but we don't have to boycott or sit-in or break windows at every cracker business in town

also j0hn i don't appreciate you yelling at me about racism

("we are not" I mean we were not)

i would assume 99% of people don't read a burzum shirt as "i endorse white power" but rather as "i endorse extreme hipster metal" so i think it's funny we're bending over backward to inject a level of holier-than-thou moral outrage here

aero otm. what you're articulating is nothing more than indifference, the late great. like: since we can't be perfect, any moral stance we do take is either arbitrary or hypocritical. i don't accept that. because we can't be perfect, the moral stances we do take are all the more important. giving your "entertainment dollars" to someone that you know will take your money and use it to promulgate race war is fucked up no matter how you slice it. if you want to insist that it's the same as eating at mcdonalds, buying nikes and listening to megadeth, then fine. don't do any of that shit either. personally, i see a difference.

nah it's not indifference, it's loving the racist and making him part of your world, but you guys don't get that since you're godless americans

some jiminy crickit motherfuckers in this thread, tanks a lot

i'm peaceing on white people lecturing me on racism, btw, dan gets a pass

i think dr king was right when he said we boycott the bus and sit-in at the lunch counter but we don't have to boycott or sit-in or break windows at every cracker business in town

He didn't say we shouldn't boycott every cracker business in town, though, which is the argument you're making

he did

to be fair i think at this point when you buy a burzum record you are mostly paying to rebuild stave churches actually

that was a lot of xposts

xp that's the difference between a great man and a prof griff imo

this presupposes that you have to give a red cent of money to listen to burzum

100000xposts

that's true too!

extreme lols at "this is badly produced" upthread

this presupposes that you have to give a red cent of money to listen to burzum

p sure we did this one either upthread or on another burzum thread

like yes, ultimately it's up to you what you want to listen to and to whom you want to give your money, but the statement made by a person of color digging Burzum and wearing a t-shirt is not going to be interpreted the same way as the statement made by a white person digging Burzum and wearing a t-shirt, and it seems super naive to me to not recognize that

I'm also completely okay with marginalizing and disenfranchising people who hate me for no fucking reason.

i don't even listen to or enjoy burzum btw but i will defend your right to listen to burzum the death

lots of x-posts

tbh, i don't think you can enjoy his music without furthering his agenda. unless, maybe, you steal it and never say anything positive about it to anyone. i believe that where burzum is concerned, ignoring and condemning are the only appropriate responses, even if you do legitimately dig the music.

― contenderizer, Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:26 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I choose not to give Varg Vikernes that kind of power over me. I myself get to decide what his music means to me, don't I?

i would assume 99% of people don't read a burzum shirt as "i endorse white power" but rather as "i endorse extreme hipster metal" so i think it's funny we're bending over backward to inject a level of holier-than-thou moral outrage here

― the late great, Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:31 PM (10 seconds ago)

i don't have the slightest idea where you're coming from here. according to you, my rejection of the popular art of a self-proclaimed and influential "philosopher" who explicitly endorses racist murder - at a time when hate crimes are spiraling out of control in europe - is simply an attempt to "inject a level of holier-than-thou moral outrage" into the conversation. with all due respect, i'm allowed to have and express a moral conscience. i'm allowed to see a direct relationship between varg's words, his music, and violence in the real world. no offense...

I choose not to give Varg Vikernes that kind of power over me. I myself get to decide what his music means to me, don't I?

yeah, sure. i'm just describing my stance.

i don't even listen to or enjoy burzum btw but i will defend your right to listen to burzum the death

I will theoretically defend your legal right to do so; you are, however, an asshole if you gloss over racist garbage in the service of your own pleasure. my Asian son, by the way, as sure a target of Varg's trash as yourself, joins me in a double gasface.

haha by "my own pleasure" i'm assuming you don't mean ME, also i thought "my asian son" was directed at me too

i don't think a dude in brooklyn wearing a burzum shirt causes hate crimes in europe fyi so that's where we agree to disagree on direct relationships

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/factsheets/butterflies/icons/butterfly.jpg

thats us contendo :-)

lol did you search for a white monarch butterfly or was that happenstance

lool, happenstance (but there is no such thing as coincidence)

also i thought "my asian son" was directed at me too

lol even by my usual standards of arrogance this would be a bridge too far

I admit I read that post and was all "woah aero dial it back- oh phew"

ahhahahaha

nah it would be all good ;)

i think that part of my take on this is that if you have an interest/liking in aggro/heavier/extreme whatever music, you are prob crossing paths with some people with pretty hateful views, and just not knowing it really - i mean theres a lot of industrial culture shit with strong crypto-facist stuff going on, and in fact far greater lyrical problematic moments (boyd rice/non/foetus/a mess of bulgarian weirdos) in the name of character or art terror or whatever. i mean shit, boring old mainstream metallers slayer have angel of death in the catalog, and whatshishead had a signature guitar designed with ss bolt fret markers until the company wised up just before production. shock impulse stuff is going to tread on the dark side of fascist creepy and serial killer fetishizing and all manner of shit that i certainly dont like, so i think that the odds are that if you dig black metal or industrial or hardcore etc you are throwing money into the pockets of some pretty horrible people, you just arent aware of it.

xpost hahaha i was thinking that for a second too

i think the misogyny aspect in that stuff is more offensive than the racism, just barely obv, but fwiw. we could add swans and tg to the list too!

TG is an interesting case of the explicitly antifascist band that also actively gives money to nazi in order to accomplish their, uh, craft

and thats not to say that deciding not to give money to varg is a bad thing, but idk if you get any moral high ground for just avoiding the big flashing neon sign of "oh shit this dude is definitely a racist, brb gotta go order that Arcturus album"

j your point's well taken but the thing is: with Burzum, we have an unambiguous case. we know that if you wear a Burzum shirt, you're wearing a nazi shirt. For sure we know that!

well...theres not a lot of wiggle room for hellhammer either

i think that part of my take on this is that if you have an interest/liking in aggro/heavier/extreme whatever music, you are prob crossing paths with some people with pretty hateful views, and just not knowing it really

fwiw this is one of the reasons why I let you dig into aggro heavy extreme stuff and then tell me about it later, rather than exploring it myself

ah c'mon late great, there's gotta be a part of you that gets at least a little skeeved out knowing this dude you're talking about and a fair chunk of his fans want you dead because of your skin color. just imagine them thinking about people like you, your family, your culture, in giant mass graves of bodies piled up. people who take these ideas too seriously going to churches, mosques, and shooting dozens of people you share a heritage with, all because of horribly misguided ideas that are attached to music. at least you can say, "shit's kinda fucked up." what's to stop a skinhead from blasting you in the back of the head, except chance? the ideas ... are out there.

tbh honest, i object less to some hypothetical band that has actively racist lyrics but little real influence in the world than to burzum/varg. of course it's easy to reject racist sentiment when it expresses itself, but that approach sometimes seems overly personal and self-centered to me. like, the underlying impulse is, "oh gross, i don't want to hear that. i don't want to be associated with that." it's an expression of personal discomfort with the experience.

thing about burzum is that the music itself doesn't provide that comfort-ruffling, "ew, racism!" experience, so it gets a pass. behind that, however, he's at least as effective in using his music to spread dangerous & hateful views as those who are more upfront about their racism. in this case, it seems too easy to blithely isolate the seemingly non-racist music from its racist source, too easy to make your personal aversion to directly racist expression the only important metric.

when it comes to stuff like this, i believe it's better to focus on consequence and intent than to get caught up in how superficially offensive things seem.

like if arapahoe county sheriff had a cool, "non-racist" C&W band, i would not be supporting that, either

i think that part of my take on this is that if you have an interest/liking in aggro/heavier/extreme whatever music, you are prob crossing paths with some people with pretty hateful views, and just not knowing it really

― O_o-O_O-o_O (jjjusten), Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:48 PM (18 minutes ago)

this understanding has done a fair bit to dampen my enthusiasm for hate- & negativity-driven extreme music in recent years

dude i dealt with that shit when some black sailors were throwing bottles at me during gulf ii, some irish and scots dude wanted to fight on 9/11 when i was in fucking encinitas, when the kids on the bus at age 5 were threatening me and the bus driver otto was leading the back to iran USA USA USA chant when the kids boycotted my animal crackers at the christmas party. oh and i got interrogated in israel at the airport and then befriended by every jew i met.

sorry, what did you want to me imagine?

you made my heart pound w that imagery

burzum just sounds like my tea party bros that i play d&d with

i would assume 99% of people don't read a burzum shirt as "i endorse white power" but rather as "i endorse extreme hipster metal" so i think it's funny we're bending over backward to inject a level of holier-than-thou moral outrage here

― the late great, Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:31 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I hope when I wear my hitler shirt, everyone recognizes its because I like his paintings, sheesh

no joke man that was PTSD that burzum doesn't make me freel

what about yr hitler warhols

i think about burzum from an equally interested position on moral outrage

also charles lindbergh field is named after a dude that wore a swastika and people wear that iron eagle metalhead shit all the time

"joy division"

whereas noo nazi every enjoyed a note of joy division

i feel like this steps over an imaginary line i don't share since whatever, racists everywhere, but i'm confused why that implies indifference on my part rather than just a difference in understanding (loosely used)

everyone knows when i go to the coffee shop with mein kampf and rise and fall of third reich ...

i think even if you disagree, i'm not sure i deserve to be tagged as incoherent

degrees, right? sure, everything in the world occurs in infinite shades & degrees. yet decision-making and action are essentially binary, off/on, yes/no, do you or don't you. i think we can make good, useful determinations while acknowledging that reality is far more complex than any determination we might make about it.

thread needs Grampsy

we can't, we each make those decisions on our own in a godless vacuum

is grampsy real or parody? is grampsy gareth?

i'm confused why that implies indifference

only because you make frequent recourse to the "shades and degrees" argument, which isn't advocacy of a different standard, but rather a seemingly nihilist negation of meaningful moral judgment.

xp: I was gonna guess latebloomer or BJO

but my judgment is meaningful to me! i feel no nihilism at all, rather great optimism breivik can exist in a vibrant norwegian society that accepts and tries to understand burzum's magnetism

and i can by proxy join that pure, clean, bracing norwegian moral sensibility as a possible future for a kinder, gentler america

fair enough late great, did not appreciate daily fact of life dealing w/ this shit. prob gets old after a while. now i feel like Whitey McHipsterton preaching about what it feels like to be put down by the man.

okay, the goalposts just vanished over the horizon

uh, yeah, americans are probably too fond of stern moral judgment, and i'm as guilty of that as anyone

You guys see the doc Until the Light Takes Us? This Hellhammer quote truly made my stomach turn:

"Well, when I was told that Faust actually killed this fucking faggot from Lillehammer, I was quite surprised because, I mean, I didn't think he had the guts to do such a thing. But... I mean... I really honor him for that."

For whatever reason, I have more of a gut-level reaction with this than most of what I've read of Varg's idiotic views on humanity. The look of totally inhuman glee on Hellhammer's face when he says it is just... Ugh.

posting in a legendary thread

why did I just read this entire thing

feels like I'm the real victim here

super late pass but: DJP, not that this should in any way redeem him in your eyes, but I thought you should know that he does have a song in his catalog called "The Crying Orc."

I feel like ppl around here know me a little too well at this point

had a very similar reaction to that hellhammer scene, clarke. he has some truly vile quotes in lords of chaos too. (if they are actual quotes since, y'know, it's lords of chaos. but I wouldn't be surprised.)

if youre wearing a mayhem shirt you are definitely definitely wearing a "publicly endorse the murder of homosexuals" shirt btw

or an emperor one

that's a relief

Or like 40 other metal bands from Europe tbf.

is ilx poster dd a racist for his burzum-shirt-wearing photo y/n

ddependds

d.daniel took a pic in a burzum shirt in front of a stave church iirc, he must be the most racist of us all!!

That until the light takes us is on youtube

Just watched it, seems like they made the dullest possible documentary about a pretty naturally compelling story

Gave me the basics, but not really sure what the filmmakers point was

Really whitewashed the whole racism/nazism stuff, to a weird degree

its a lot of walking around in that doc

(xpost haha roxy I actually just typed the below while you posted that)

They really like shots of the darkthrone guy walking around

Harmony korine is such a douche

I agree re: under-addressing the nasty parts of Varg's ideology... Although the doc did make me really really like Fenriz a lot!

im not really certain but i think maybe the doc was meant to be about the mainstreaming of the black metal aesthetic (or something), how the poses and symbols became increasingly diluted and meaningless. i dont know. lol @ frost knifing a couch

the only really interesting thing in that movie was how frost is sorta presented as this kind of latter-day pretty, mall-metal imitation of a "genuine" black metal dude, but then that child on the plane seems so genuinely terrified of him, and you realize small differences, etc

Yeah I gues that's what I got out of it but if so then it was underdeveloped, or they didn't seem to choose between doing that or just a straight doc.

The hellhammer guy seemed vile.

the offhand way they all talked about ppl they know being killed or dying was creepy

Immortal looked liked bikers and just seemed like regular rocker dudes

yeah it was annoying to me that they glossed over so much, but nice that they did talk about just generally what the metal music scene was like at the time, which really hasn't been given much coverage, understandably in light of all the dramatic events of the time. i was also annoyed that it wasnt mentioned that hellhammer plays fucking christian metal now and states that there was never anything anti-religious in mayhem. i do not honor him for that. would really like a whole documentary where all these guys have to attend sensitivity training and therapy.

xpost i think they are the most normal of all the dudes.

why don't people just listen to other good black metal? there is a ton of it. unless you are siegbran. then you are just a lost cause and a lifer. and siegbran does own every graveland album. autographed even! and nobody yells at him. and nobody yells at him because nobody here reads rob darken interviews. trust me, you don't want to. anyone who goes out of their way to defend listening to burzum is being a dummy. just listen and shut up or pick any one of a zillion other non-controversial GREAT metal albums to listen to. ildjarn t-shirts are cool! do they wear those in brooklyn?

just seems like non-metal people go directly to burzum or for some perverse "trangressive" reason. it's tiresome. try the ring cycle sometime! talk about transgressive.

I would love a little primer on some non-Burzum Burzum-esque black metal. I live in the part of Brooklyn where you don't really see band t-shirts, so I'm not sure. The only time I really go to Williamsburg is to record shop, and Academy W-Burg doesn't even stock Burzum LPs--the nerve!

I think non-metal people go to Burzum for some of the same reasons non-R&B people go to the Weeknd or Frank Ocean or whatever, to be fair; it's what's hyped and discussed in their (non-inner) circles.

there are black metal threads on ilm. look around.

Xpost

Huh yeah never would have guessed that dude was xian

Varg is interesting, sort of superficially smart seeming and a little charming and reasonable sounding in a way that feels really manipulative

Like I know ppl lie to throw sociopath around but I wouldn't be suprised with him...like I bet he's from a totally nice family upbringing and went to good schools etc

&it feels like he's totally having his way with the filmmakers, like they seem to at least partially buy into his bullshit

yeah but they know the gruesome history of the guy BEFORE they listen. they choose to take a walk on the burzum side because its cool or whatever it is. and hey if we were talking about teenagers doing this that would be one thing. its their job to listen to burzum or whatever else is wrong and unholy. but adults who aren't big metal fans who go on and on about how great the music is and blah blah blah is tired. really tired. he was a big inspiration! his music can sound really cool. we know. but there is a lot of cool music to listen to.

x-post

good schools are p much the rule in Europe though ain't they

everyone buys into his bullshit! people listen to him talk! that's all you need to know.

Yeah I guess? I don't really know tbh (wrt schools)

there are black metal threads on ilm. look around.

― scott seward, Thursday, August 16, 2012 11:15 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I've browsed around for sure... That's how I discovered Bergtatt and Nattens Madrigal, both of which I really like a lot (I have The Olden Domain by Borknagar as well which I enjoy but which can border on the way stilted for me), but I've been meaning to dive into Beherit, Ildjarn, etc. I tried Wolves in the Throne Room for some feel-good BM but I didn't like it at all. I pretty much adore all the first-wave stuff I'm familiar with (I need more Bathory records, absolutely). I like every bit of Darkthrone I've gotten. I don't know, I neither buy the idea that Burzum is somehow singular and transcendent w/r/t other BM not the idea that you don't really "need" to listen to him.

("nor the idea that you don't really "need" to listen to him" I mean to type)

when decibel magazine - a magazine i wrote for and a magazine that had my name printed in it - put varg on the cover and did an interview with him and reviewed his post-prison stuff it just seemed normal to me! i mean, he's a metal guy. part of the history of metal. i know his history, but it just seemed like the kind of a thing a metal magazine would do! and i know they got some shit for it, but i don't think they got a ton of shit. now, i really think it was the wrong move. i'm just sick of hearing about him. and i think siegbran is wrong. he has gotten positive reviews and serious press. here in the states. people take him seriously! and he just spews the dumbest fucking shit you could ever hear from a person. the metal world should turn their backs. for real. just let him do his shit on his own and ignore him. the metal press, that is. he's infamous and will always have an audience. no need for any more ink about him.

just listen to darkspace over and over and over again. siegbran's other favorite band. you really don't need burzum in your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tkiDlQ8ggU

i also am sick of hearing about him, but i am not sick of hearing filosofem. tired also of the condescending nature of the comments about there being other metal out there. we're not noobs.

i wasn't talking to you. or at you. or about you. was talking about people - in general - who don't listen to metal (or much metal) who feel that they HAVE to listen to burzum. for some reason.

Darkspace sound pretty freaking amazing, Scott... I'll have to check them out! (I'm weird about encountering a band for the first time via YouTube; if I'm going to give them a fair shake, I want it to sound good.) I wish I had a To Mega Therion shirt.

oh people who dont listen to metal can generally stfu about the whole situation, i agree

that's crap

but also i feel like i should point out that black metal noobs w/ genuine interest are probably drawn to burzum because it is foundational! anyone listening to mayhem, darkthrone, emperor, immortal, etc would obv listen to burzum also. most intro to bm lists would mention burzum, rightly.

i think noobs with no real interest in bm who wear burzum shirts for shock value or w/e are a phenom that i am not familiar with

but also i feel like i should point out that black metal noobs w/ genuine interest are probably drawn to burzum because it is foundational! anyone listening to mayhem, darkthrone, emperor, immortal, etc would obv listen to burzum also. most intro to bm lists would mention burzum, rightly.