make predictions about what will be in/win magazines' end of year polls - 2003...

usual suspects.

And the OutKast record. That'll probably win the album of the year Grammy.

Crooked Fingers * Red Devil Dawn (Merge)
John Cale * Hobosapiens (EMI)
The Dears * No Cities Left (Grenadine)
Death Cab For Cutie * Transalanticism (Barsuk)
Neil Michael Hagerty * The Hex (Drag City)
Erase Errata * At Crystal Palace (Blast First)
Goldfrapp * Black Cherry (Mute)
Ex Models * Zoo Psychology (Frenchkiss)
Natacha Atlas * Something Dangerous (Mantra)
Amy Rigby * Til The Wheels Fall Off (Signature)
David Sylvian * Blemish (Samadhisound)
Athlete * Vehicles & Animals (EMI)
Prince Paul * Politics of the Business (Razor & Tie)
The Kills * Keep On Your Mean Side (Rough Trade)
Atmosphere * Seven's Travels (Epitaph)
Clearlake * Cedars (Domino)
Chris Lee * Cool Rock (Misra)
The Gossip * Movement (Kill Rock Stars)
The Watchers * To The Rooftops (Gern Blandsten)
The Go Betweens * Bright Yellow, Bright Orange (Circus)
Massive Attack * 100th Window (Virgin)
The Sea And Cake * One Bedroom (Thrill Jockey)
Entombed * Inferno (Koch)
Susheela Raman * Love Trap (Narada)]
Subarachnoid Space * Also Rising (Strange Attractors)
Karsh Kale * Liberation (Six Degrees)
Deerhoof * Apple O' (Kill Rock Stars)
Mariza * Fado Curvo (Times Square)
Killing Joke (Pilot)
Tomahawk * Mit Gas (Ipecac)
Dinky * Black Cabaret (Carpark)
Richard Hawley * Lowedges (Setanta)
Mr. Quintron * Are You Ready For An Organ Solo (Three-One-G)
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds * Nocturama (Mute)
Califone * Quicksand/Cradlesnakes (Thrill Jockey)
Mojave 3 * Spoon And Rafter (4AD)
Iggy Pop * Skull Ring (Virgin)
Whirlwind Heat * Do Rabbits Wonder (V2)
Turnerjoy * Transplant (Mohofusu)
My Morning Jacket * It Still Moves (ATO/RCA)
Black Box Recorder * Passionoia (One Little Indian)
Spiritualized * Amazing Grace (Sanctuary Records)
The Party Of Helicopters * Please Believe It (Velocette)
Thea Gilmore * Avalanche (Compass)
Saturday Looks Good To Me * All Your Summer Songs (Polyvinyl)
Tokyo Sex Destruction * Le Red Soul Comunnitte (10 Points Program) (Dim Mak)
Nataraj XT * Ocean Birds (Nu Tone)
Fruit Bats * Mouthfuls (Sub Pop)
Angels of Light * Everything Is Good Here/Please Come (Young God)
Minus 5 * Down with Wilco (Yep Roc)
Grandaddy * Sumday (V2)
The Decemberists * Her Majesty, The Decemberists (Kill Rock Stars)
Stephen Malkmus & The Jicks * Pig Lib (Matador)
Andrew Bird * Weather Systems EP (Grimsey)
Azita * Enantiodromia (Drag City)
Gang Starr * Ownerz (Virgin)
Buzzcocks (Merge)
Kings Of Leon * Youth And Young Manhood (RCA)
A.R.E. Weapons (Rough Trade)
Smog * Dinner (Drag City)
Drive-By Truckers * Decoration Day (Lost Highway)
Black Rebel Motorcycle Club * Take Them On, On Your Own (Virgin)
Matt Eliott * The Mess We Made (Merge)
Momus * Oskar Tennis Champion (American Patchwork)
Adult. * Anxiety Always (Ersatz Audio)
Throwing Muses (4AD)
Rainer Maria * Long Knives Drawn (Polyvinyl)
Bonnie Prince Billie * Master And Everyone (Palace)
Black Eyes (Dischord)
Cul de Sac * Death To The Sun (Strange Attractors Audio House)
Loose Fur (Drag City)
Audio Bullys * Ego War (Astralwerks)
The Blood Brothers * Burn, Piano Island, Burn (ArtistDirect)
The American Analog Set * Promise of Love (Tiger Style)
The Aislers Set * How I Learned To Write Backwards (Suicide)
Cave In * Antenna (RCA)
Kinski * Airs Above Your Station (Strange Attractors Audio House/Sub Pop)
Evan Dando * Baby I'm Bored (Bar None)
DJ Tiga * DJ Kicks (!K7)
Shipping News * Three-Four (Touch & Go)
Maria McKee * High Dive (Viewfinder)
Blur * Think Tank (Virgin)
Vue * Down For Whatever (RCA)
Sloan * Action Pact (Vik)
Frankie Sparo * Welcome Crummy Mystics (Constellation)
Kristin Hersh * The Grotto (4ad)
Caitlin Cary * I'm Staying Out (Yep Roc)
The Lonesome Organist * Forms & Follies (Thrill Jockey)
Deftones (Maverick)
South * With The Tides (Kinetic)
Jayhawks * Rainy Day Music (Lost Highway)
Ween * Quebec (Sanctuary)
The People Involved (People Involved)
The Cramps * Fiends Of Dope Island (Vengeance)
A.F.I. * Sing The Sorrow (DreamWorks)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf900/f955/f95558bm0s5.jpg

...which I think is a surprise of the most pleasant variety. Also in the Top 10 is Cat Power - again, goodstuff.

ha, I assume this isn't coincidental. ;)

Outkast
Basement Jaxx
that Led Zep live album
Radiohead
The New Pornographers
White Stripes
Beyonce

Geir has another avatar far more worthy of that distinction.

I'd like to see a lot more raving press about Aesop Rock's record, but it seems too angular to be singularly praised.

ps. yo matos!

Woohoo! Japanese secret bonus track required!

Actually, the real sticking point is the whole "no no, El only produced one track, I did the first six, and it is just a coincidence that I, too, chose the path of drunken horns and Vangelis Blade Runner synths" sound. I mean, when the beats work, then great, and I like how all the Jukies hang out in the same brownstone indie-rap bunker and learn from each other and swap ideas and shit, but if this is the first sign of a "signature label sound" that will eventually become Neptunian in its exhaustion then oh no oh shit.

Geeta, how do you feel about banning the terms "chamber-pop" and "Beach Boys" for a year?

nate, your subliminal diss was funny. But your point is pretty good. I also see the obvious influence of El-P on Aesop Rock's sound. I just feel as if there's enough of a tilt to it to legitimize it. If anything, he's borrowing from his partner in crime, Blockhead, more. And for the record, I hated Labor Days.

matos, I'm just trying to say that the album isn't getting as much praise as I expected it to get and that the people who would probably like it best if they gave it a chance, are avoiding it like the plague. I stated it poorly before.

Tim, rude? Wow, are you just hurt by the fact that I insulted the new sound of Britain or something? I don't understand why he's supposed to be Jumping Jack Jesus and why his album is so acclaimed. After what I've said about sampling, legitimize the greatness of the beat of "Fix Up, Look Sharp"? If it's okay to sample, period, is it okay to use the same sample the same way as someone else?

Which is my feeling re: "Work It"; I was swarmed on ILM for stating it, but what's the fucking point of playing an old record in the middle of yours. "OH SHIT I KNOW THAT!" Appropriation/nostalgia/respect...what-fucking-ever. How about some creativity, it's supposed to be an art form.

"How is it okay for Dizzee Rascal to take the same sample that Run-DMC used and do effectively the same thing, when you'd probably villify Puffy for doing the same, repeatedly?"

I can't speak for Jess but I suspect he'd agree with me when I say that I wouldn't have a problem with Puffy doing the same thing. Often when Puffy *does* do the same thing (or something very similar) it works brilliantly; sometimes it sounds shit. The determinative factor is not the obviousness of the sample or its prior use.

As for Dizzee, you're totally taking this one song out of context and making it representative for Dizzee's craft as a whole. All the other tracks on Boy in da Corner are self-produced and don't like they rely on much sampling at all (except the occasional Playstation game noise maybe). The fact that "Fix Up Look Sharp" deliberately uses a familiar sampled beat and nothing else suggests that it's very deliberately trying to do and be something else; that "something" is two-fold, I think:

1. it's a demonstration of Dizzee's talent for freestyling over the beat, for being a raucous MC with no concerns about production/songcraft. The point of garage MCing is to ride other people's beats, to take them and make them your own. The backstory behind "Fix Up Look Sharp" is that Dizzee was in the studio, heard someone playing the instrumental break, and just started freestyling over it. If anything, the beat having a lineage and tradition makes it more ideal, because the assfuck-recontextualisation by the MC is consequently more radical and impressive.Oh, and see also: Jamaican riddim culture. And then see also: the eternally piratical nature of sampling throughout the hardcore continuum (hardcore--> jungle--> garage--> grime)

2. "Fix Up Look Sharp" is an old-skool beat in an album full of new-school beats. It's a very deliberate attempt by Dizzee to show that he's not "just" garage, but at the same time it's something of a very enjoyable novelty. Dizzee doesn't take the tradition of hip hop beatcraft seriously a la Jurassic 5 or DJ Shadow-style producers because he's working in a genre that is more forward-looking than tradition-venerating. For that reason, the sole purpose of the tune's old-skoolizm is to announce itself as old-skool. And it's much more effective to use an actual old-skool beat that is vaguely recognisable than it is to find something new and obscure. As I said in relation to Missy's Under Construction album (which has a fairly similar attitude to old-skool as "Fix Up Look Sharp" does), if you're going to an Eighties Revival costume party, you don't go as some obscure indie icon no-one but yourself will be aware of; you go as Cyndi Lauper or Madonna or Prince. This is about the past as fun, as shared history, rather than the past as a chessboard for beatmining fetishists.

Oh my god I bet you'd be the most boring DJ in the history of existence!

(i heart tim finney)

Yeah I'd be pretty angry too if I had to listen to you play "Chris Ott's History of the Best and Most Obscure Breaks Ever!!!"

Chris: if hard pressed, could you locate your own genitals? With a map?

(This is another way of asking if you hate fun.)

When you talk about music, you talk about the totality: the emotional, intellectual, cognitive, physical. Not to mention that music isn't heard in a vacuum; it's heard in a variety of different places, etc -- in your bedroom, in dance clubs, at the grocery store. You hear music in a variety of states of mind, too -- When you're sad, when you're happy, when you're angry, or indifferent. So to divorce music from dancing doesn't make sense, just like divorcing music from quarter notes and eighth notes doesn't make sense.

Yes exactly.

Yes, exactly. Low and Basement Jaxx are interchangeable.

Re: Low vs Basement Jaxx, I don't get what you're getting at.

Formulaic.

Tim, so basically, you're saying it's cool for Dizzee to be uncreative because his uncreativity is so incredibly uncreative that it borders on an unforeseen level of uber-innovation? Stop dressing up the situation. I don't see it as some kind of beautiful reinvention either. I can't see a lot of emcees getting away with this, but because he's a more introspective, junglist emcee, because it's 'his environment', he gets away with it? It's the same thing as every rapper making new songs over "Paul Revere", it's just lazy. And should I feel better about it because he doesn't really care about the beats he's making?

Rollie's applying a mentalist strict approach to sample creativity - Missy's not even allowed to reference De La Soul.

"But Chris I still think you're missing the point. The use of recognisable samples in Under Construction is not the result of Missy and Timbaland wanting to make music like they used to dance to and going to the most obvious records on their shelves. Rather, they're deliberately chosen to trigger the most frequent recognition for the most number of listeners in order to make a point about the specific nature of Missy and Timbaland's nostalgia - a nostalgia which is repeatedly explained to be not theirs alone, but a collective nostalgia. Collective nostalgia by its very nature revels in the overly familiar, because it gets by on cultural touchstones that "we" can take for granted as having shaped everyone's awareness. That's why heaps of people go to eighties revival nights as Madonna or Cyndi Lauper or Michael Jackson, but no-one goes as the drummer from The Minutemen (so far as I know!) - what's the point?

Likewise, for Missy and Timbaland, using unfamiliar samples would unnecessarily obscure the nature of the album's retro-fetish - it would bog the approach down in an overly loaded understanding of what their eighties hip hop "golden age" actually was, rather than what it felt like to someone like Missy who, strictly speaking, was probably too young to have an incredibly intimate knowledge of the source material. And it's only really the feeling that the duo are trying to evoke - the samples are largely decorative, and often their retro qualities exist in deliberate contrast to still-very-futurist grooves. In contrast most other current "golden age" hip hop shies away from obviousness in samples but boringly champions an aged + authentic approach to groove construction.

Ultimately I think the retro samples on Under Construction are used in a similar manner to the the way pop songs are used on the 2 Many DJs album, which is pushing an idea about pop as much as Missy is pushing an idea about hip hop. As both are essentially "arguments" as much as they are records, it only makes sense that their creators would cite the most recognised and persuasive precedents in support of their position."

While I can't make the exact same argument about "Fix Up Look Sharp", in Dizzee's case the "so much else" is his rapping, which is captivating even without any musical backing - in that sense the entire groove is the "surplus", almost throwaway. So you're half-right in that regard Rollie, except of course that you're totally ignoring the role of Dizzee's rapping. One should regard "throwaway sample backing" as playing the same role as "deliberately simple instrument-playing" in that it has two purposes - one) it's rushy, exciting stuff that operates on an entirely different plane to any boring ideas of "creativity" that you and Chris insist on peddling; and two) its deliberate lack of "craft" in one sense serves to highlight the presence of a totally different sort of craft (Dizzee's capabilities as an MC).

Explain what you mean by "mattering". In what sense does it not "matter"?

The verdict is still out on Dizzee for me though...my immediate reaction was negative, but it has grown on me. I still don't see whats so great about "I Luv U" though.

So wait...what exactly DO you think Missy's doing?
I don't see how Tim is overintellectualizing this at all...

Still, I see what you say about the purpose of Under Construction. But what's the point of her seemingly taking the same approach with this new album? Or Timbaland with his and Magoo's Under Construction 2 album?

This is a battle of personal preference, it seems. Personally, there's no point to the whole 'retro revival' concept. If I want to hear De La Soul, I'll listen to De La Soul. I don't care if they are trying to make a statement. Their whole music shouldn't be based completely on building upon the past.

This is pretty ironic, considering that you consider almost all hip hop albums of the 90s to be "full of filler".

And Rollie, the thing is, they AREN'T completely based on building on the past. Timbaland's beats are anything BUT reliant on the past - which is what makes the context of the use of "retro" sampling so cool. If he was doing entirely sample-based production a la Prince Paul, it'd be one thing....

life's too short to argue with morons.

or maybe just too much of mine.

(chris ott exemplifies old-pfork fear of body to a remarkable extreme -- dance and have fun? i'd rather sleep!) (if this had some bangsian self-loathing w/r/t the utter stupidity of this thrown in it could still make a cool article tho)

also chris Timbo is the main creative force behind Missy production. also do you hate all songs with I V IV after Louie Louie? if you're going to write a new song, why not use a new chord sequence? and all these records use the same instruments! if you're going to write a new song, why not invent new things to play it on?

also rollie, for pfork's "rap dude" (or one of them) how can you hate sampling so much? you do realize this invalidates most "old-school" rap far more than modern stuff, right!? "fuck eric b. and rakim -- they just stole from james brown, maaaan!"

really, what are you, eighty-five years old or something?

also if you don't rock the bufu you can't claim the bling.

christ, actually please never use that word again! (or at least until you listen to a b.g. or big tymers at the least album IN FULL)

He was spittin fire while you were still wearing training blinders.

I said that earlier, Sterling. Read the thread first. I like sampling. Just when it's done right. My thing is about how it's somehow extra legitimate to sample a really well-known piece over something more obscure for nostalgia's sake. I don't really get that line of thinking. Sampling should be used to bring a new light to music that wouldn't be heard normally, not some sort of nostalgia light tower.

Timbo is one of my favorite producers. In most cases, his forward thinking approach is refreshing. But still, his records with Missy Elliott somehow irk me with a sense of 'let's remind them of this'.

Whatever, this argument lost it's point awhile ago.

the key is the shock-cut silence between the 'big beat' beats. offends only the virtuous! if that little affront to the Forces of Tasteful Progess gives you a sour-lemonade face then, well, you know which side you're on i guess.

I guess you're talking abt dance music in the 'divorce music from dancing' (though every record creates some kind of psysiological reaction but it may not lead to what we know as dancing): even so, surely its reasonable to make the argument that, as record is released for home consumption (that is one of its functions) (passive listening) then it may not work as that.

The mistake is concretizing "danceability" into a definite property rather than a tendency that is present in varying (and ocasionally indectable) amounts in all music. Even my depiction just then is wrong because it suggests you can somehow quantify the amount of danceability of any given music; styles of music which often seem impossible to dance to from an outsider's perspective (gabba, drum & bass etc.) would suggest that it's actually about a level of compatability between the music and the dancer's body. ie. danceability is not a property, but praxis, something we do. It's like there's a hermeneutic horizon where the technical properties of the music mesh with the dancer's ability to interpret those properties physically.

I heart Tim and Geeta, btw.

Why? It is, after all, the best thing they've done since "OK Computer"

Here's the thing I don't understand....you guys are acting like he just took the beat from Run DMC (re:I forget the name of the original sample..."take me to the mardi gras"?) and used it flat out...but he didn't. He worked it into the music and incredibly forward thinking beats that he'd already created in a clever and creative way. He's not just biting, he's really using it to great effect. When I hear those drums, I immediately think "Peter Piper," and its a really cool affect. A call of nostalgia that fits Missy's vibe perfectly. I mean, look at her videos; her whole steez is that she's a new millenium b-girl, with style from the 80s plus some sort of futuristic shit goin on.....

Ha ha Mitch I was thinking of bringing up Since I Left You too (especially the bit with the bassline from "Holiday") but I pheared that it would be a huge invitation for Chris and Rollie to miss the point again.

Rollie's position wrt to sampling is the very essence of Mark S's reformulation of "rockism" - wherein the problem with such a position is that it ultimately undermines the fundamental elements of the style it seeks to defend. Just as rockist approach wrt rock music impliedly casts rock as inferior to classical/jazz etc, Rollie's demand for new/obscure samples adopts the same line of thinking which considers the act of sampling itself to be inherently uncreative; after all, the act of sampling is fundamentally about using bits of music that already exist, both materially and in the memory of music listeners.

As ddrake points out, Timbaland/Missy's new-found love of sampling is a direct corollary to their emphasis on unusual production approaches. Like the other factors which tend to induce a return to sampling (new genre, new technology, new performance style), their old skoolism is all about recontextualising the old within the context of the new. I don't think it's really feasible to maintain that tracks like "Gossip Folks" or "Play That Beat" or even "Bring The Pain" sound the same as the tracks they're referencing.

Obv. we can boil this whole argument down to whether you choose to care about which samples are being used or what's being done with (and against, and around, and alongside) them. In my opinion, discussing Missy entirely in terms of which samples she uses is the equivalent of pointing at someone in the street and saying "Oh my God, did you realise that underneath your clothes you're entirely naked!?!"

"Still, I see what you say about the purpose of Under Construction. But what's the point of her seemingly taking the same approach with this new album? Or Timbaland with his and Magoo's Under Construction 2 album?"

The tracks I've heard from Under Construction 2 seem to run the gamut of Timbaland's styles - Indian, electro-bass etc. Retro is just another style he can throw into the ring. Meanwhile the tracks I've heard from This is not a Test (which is not many, and then only once) don't seem explicitly old-skool so much as deliberately raw and unpolished: lots of enormous farting bass and really chunky beats, it's actually kinda unplaceable, like EPMD meets Public Enemy meets current crunk (and this is ignoring the obvious example of "Pass That Dutch", which stills more from the Diwali riddim than anything else)*. I'm not sure if the point is really "retro" anymore so much as loud, obnoxious club music. I suspect that Missy wants to downplay the production skillzor side of the equation in order to focus attention on her (increasingly surrealistic/silly) MCing, ie. continuing the process that began with "Work It". Certainly she seems to be moving away from the R&B side of things; whereas before she pitched herself between Lil Kim and Aaliyah now she seems to be pitching herself between Fatman Scoop and Busta Rhymes.

* I have to assume that you guys would absolutely detest Ol' Dirty Bastard's "Welcome Home" - that's like fifth-hand pillaging going on!

So how about, say, Soho's "Hippy Chick" or Credit To The Nation's "Call It What You Want" then? Smacks of lazy bandwagon-jumping tokenism from where I'm sat.

Uh, quite.

I love "Hippy Chick"! Top tune!

Picking up from what Tim was saying, has Missy become a much better MC since 'Miss E', or is it me? The rhymes on 'Work It' and 'Pass That Dutch' are more interesting than 'Get Ur Freak On' by a long shot.

Probably yes - but I agree with Matos that this doesn't necessarily make the records better. Perhaps "Get Ur Freak On" and "Lick Shots" work as great pop records because Missy knew she wasn't a brilliant MC and realised she had to compensate for that in other ways. Like, the problem with "Pass That Dutch" is that Missy evidently thinks she's good enough to get away with releasing a first single without a chorus.

I'll also be really sad if she does abandon R&B, as I possibly prefer her in R&B mode - "Sock It 2 Me", "Sticking Chickens", "We Did It", "One Minute Man", "Play That Beat" etc. etc.

I agree, but the fact that there's no chorus *and* the groove is so tuneless (I don't mean that negatively) mean that it doesn't really stick in the head the way "Work It" or "Get Ur Freak On" did.

I suspect that This Is Not A Test might be the Da Real World to Under Construction's Supa Dupa Fly.

Tim, I thought ODB's 'Welcome Home' track was kind of uninspired. An obvious rush job, nothing really notable about it. I remember being glad that he still had the delivery going, but that's about it.

g--ff, there's a difference between a rock song being loose and unrestricted and a rap song being sloppily produced. This isn't my main argument.

I'm saying, why can't artists evoke previous musics while still utilizing their own outlets? This is why I feel like Under Construction is a boring nod to the past and something like Paul's Boutique winks at it's forefathers while still remaining almost fully forward-thinking and original.

Saying "Bring The Pain" on Under Construction isn't simply a rehash is strange to me. New lyrics, yes, different mood, yes, but how is it such a forward step? What influence is this giving? As long as I have the original artist on the track, it's cool for me to take the frame of a song. Excuse me while I call Sadat X about jumping punks and beatdowns. We have a hit to make.

Your choice of sampling is just a personal preference thing anyway: I prefer El-P freaking "Mexican Radio" by Wall of Voodoo for Cannibal Ox over someone building on top of "Paul Revere", regardless of how funky it is or what nostalgia is promotes. I'm not saying such uncreativity is wholly unenjoyable, I'm saying I like other methods more.

Fine, you like other methods more, but your subjective preference doesn't make El-P objectively creative and Timbaland/Missy objectively uncreative.

needless to say, the Sterling-Tim-Geeta front is OTM throughout this thread.

*sniff*

Radiohead has never been "African" in any way. But they, like all other bands, are best when they create melodies with verse and chorus, not just a phrase or two that are repeated endlessly. Repetition and minimalism always bores the listener.

Geir, this is really, really, really untrue if the listener is me.
Thus, it is untrue.

i'm really stumbling tho with the 'with you in that dress/my thoughts i confess/verge on dirty' bit

Miles Davis & Beethoven both strongly disagree with this statement.

Dorinne Muraille Mani (Fat Cat)
The Books The Lemon of Pink (Tomlab)
Matmos The Civil War (Matador)
Nathan Michel Dear Bicycle (Tigerbeat 6)
Colleen Everyone alive wants answers (Leaf)
Gal Hinaus:: In den, Wald. (CD-R / radio))
Lullatone Computer Recital (Audio Dregs)
Anne Laplantine Hambourg
Robert Wyatt Cuckooland (Hannibal)
David Sylvian Blemish (Samadhisound)

Can someone please tell me some more about this band? The internet doesn't know shit, but "Motherless Bastard" (I think it's called) is fab.