"60s free jazz is the only jazz i have bothered with"

yes I have made that awful post as a result of overreacting (surprise, surprise) to Edd's post in the matching mole thread.

I started listening to the 60s 'free' stuff and quite frankly still listening to quite a few records from that time (as well as other genres). I never actually heard this stuff on the radio but have read bits in mags and tried it out (which is what i do with most music i actually 'discover').

Same with classical music: so far, mostly 20th century.

Its a good way of starting with these genres tho'. Then you can always work back (that's what i tell myself).

BTW, one of the best BYG records, Grachan Moncur III's New Africa, came out on CD this week, as did Archie Shepp's Yasmina, A Black Woman (paired with Poem For Malcolm).

Yeah, the Shepps have already been issued together on an Italian CD (w/ a shitty non-standard BYG cover) - I think true ownership of most of this BYG material is muddy, to say the least, so diff. companies are reissuing it a kind of scattershot fashion, some on vinyl, some on CD (I wld love CD copies of the Jimmy Lyons and Sunny Murray BYG reissues that I've seen - finally managed to score some ltd ed. CD of 'Monkey Pockie-Boo')

It's not just free jazz that has been welll-served recently, reissue-wise - if you're a keen collector of British jazz, for example, then you can't move for Tubby Hayes, Ken Colyer, Chris Barber, Ronnie Scott, Kenny Ball, Humph etc. etc. reissues - not to mention things like 'Outback' by Mike Osbourne and 'Flare Up' by Harry Beckett finally making it onto disc.

The market for free jazz reissues is still a miniscule part of the miniscule jazzbo market, in the UK. A distributor told me recently that in the UK he had managed to shift a grand total of 65 copies of an important Albert Ayler live release, which is fuckin' pitiful.
Even 'Footprints' by Wayne Shorter - his first ever live alb, his first alb as leader in 8 years, a poll-winning rec in Downbeat and Jazztimes etc. etc. - has only sold abt 30,000 copies WORLDWIDE.

Listening to one type of anything is dud, obv.

I think its a good way to work back if you like stuff like psych rock, beefheart free jazz won't scare you so muc maybe.

And since a lot of 20th century composition deals with electronics, and if you like techno or whatever then that's a way in to classical.

but of course, once you're in then you can try get into other types of the thing.

very more-ish, yet it's finite -- many of those pieces were ideas that didn't need repeating ad absurdum -- so, some of the best free jazz pieces are from the '60s, when everybody was first to the chords and ideas -- free jazz was played by real jazz musos, not rock session even, so they were capable of pulling off some extremes in various new ideas areas, especially when collaborating with other experts -- a lot of "free "jazz" these days is stuck in a career virtuoso holding pattern and many are simple re-hashes of the '60s -- some of those ideas only needed to be done just enough once not be boring, given their position precisely on the edge of excess

my advice, don't get through it too fast, or listen to tracks too quickly -- you will tire of them and not be able to replace them -- get into it gradually, and all the pieces will unfold over time -- because, you _can_ burn-out on that music, because it is the fastest music i've ever heard (and it is great fun and such a breathe of fresh air from 4/4)

so '60s and '70s jazz are by far the most listenable, but as '84s Metheny/Coleman hinted, maybe an "endangered species".

I got into free jazz thru traditional jazz. The thing I really like early on was the improv aspect, esp. '20s collective improvisation, then on thru Bird, then hard bop etc., so when I got to free jazz, those ideas taken to their logical extreme really got me excited. I feel like I had to "get" jazz before I could "get" free jazz. I know I'm in the minority here. I would say my favorite jazz to listen to now is still early jazz and/or '60s/'70s free-ish stuff that has some restraint like the '60s inside/outside Blue Notes.

Actually, I think Phil recommended the Sam Rivers album Crystals to me on another thread and it's one of the coolest records of any kind I've ever heard. Intensely organized compostitions containing huge loud utter freak-outs. But still, it helped that I heard Rivers's Fuschia Swing Song first.

BTW, one of the best BYG records, Grachan Moncur III's New Africa, came out on CD this week

Can't wait to hear this, the Moncur Mosaic box is freaking amazing.

more so than ... :: 20th cent composers : classical

in my opinion.

also, "the only kind of modern art i have bothered with is jackson pollock and stuff like that"

i suspect this is a fallacy. paying attention to changes and voicings etc. does not mitigate against "emotional" involvement (i put this in quotes because i don't even really see the distinction).

and 30,000 is a huge number of records, especially for a jazz record. gosh the record label where i worked briefly would be excited to sell 5,000 copies of a cd.

(i don't think this process is anything to do with 'visceral emotion')

Free jazz is definetely easier if you enjoy 'pychedelic' rock music (and both took off in the 60s).

Not true. I cover free jazz, and I write not only for the Wire but also for Jazziz, which is (or was at one point) the best-selling jazz magazine in the US, mostly because they put lots of smoothies on the cover. So mainstream jazz magazines definitely publish pieces on "out" stuff (I've written about Derek Bailey and the Flying Luttenbachers for Jazziz).

the Bossa Nova, on the other hand -- yummy yum yum, as they say in Hobbiton during the annual pie eating contest..

also, always beware the Jazzbo who is a reformed rocker, spitting on rock to uplift the purity of his or her love in a false notion of higher musical forms (see Richard Meltzer).

so far i have figured out (going by numbers in left-hand corner on cds):
1. art ensemble - a jackson in your house/message to our folks

2. don cherry – mu part one/mu part two

3. archie shepp – blasé/live at the pan-african festival

4. sun ra – solar myth approach vol 1 and 2

5. dewey redman - tarik

6. gato barbieri/dollar brand – hamba khale! AND anthony
braxton – actuel 15 sess.

7. sunny murray – sunshine/even break: never give a sucker

8. art ensemble – reese and the smooth ones

9. archie shepp – live at antibes 1&2

any since then? what are their numbers? why two different releases with the number 6 as cat #? has any of the alan silva stuff from byg/actuel made it on to a CD?

(sorry if i am derailing this thread!)

http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Labels/byg.htm

as for the original question, even if i do tend to favor 60s jazz, i think it is a rather bland orthodoxy. i got into coltrane because a guy at a record store told me to, and i turned on immediately to it (Live at Birdland), especially the eastern/african feel of "afro blue". i was really surpirsed to discover the orthodoxy after the fact. i wonder if "coltrane and hartman" is allowed into the Wire cannon? its coltrane, but it has VOCALS too! i think its one of the best albums ever released. this reminds me i need to go start a thread...

BYG is being run through an Italian re-issue label isn't it ? (i'm not sure about the earlier more select Coley selections) as though there are some copyright considerations that Italian companies might be able to swerve .. is this correct ?

the Aum Fid. sub-label that sprung from Homestead, that seemed to be very recent college marketed, and that stuff that The Wire tackily collected as "Fire Music", that can be hipster marketed or the real deal -- i find i have to give each record individual consideration before deciding how fashionably timed an item it is

i make that distinction because the real deal stuff was more often made against the odds and met with consistent hostility, for years -- when Forced Exposure was still a magazine, that was the first place i read about it in new zealand (maybe it was in The Wire, but i wasn't a reader then), yet Forced Exposure was 20 years later than a lot of the most extreme developements -- the stuff that's real to me is often historical artifact in a quaint way, but it often just seems first to the funkiest non-boring non-repetitive fastest roll-out of ideas -- but also many records were the only document the players ever anticipated making, so the best went into each project
(Sam Rivers is a great example of the opportunist survival instinct from back then cf: David Ware, who (1) is rolled out like a rock star and (2) is not doing anything new or interesting to me, but i suppose he's alive and available)

when getting into this music i found Coltrane being put out as 'the man' was a big waste of time for me -- i hear him stuck in a harmonic box -- he is a really bad intro to free jazz -- all those guys he inspired, they're so often better than him -- he was on some mission to keep his music relevent to his audience i suppose, to take his audience somewhere new perhaps -- he was a big waste of time to me because (1) he was the name and his stuff used to be 10 times easier to hear/buy and (2) he was that much more boring in his harmonic straightjacket -- he almost put me off trying more "free jazz" -- don't waste your time on John Coltrane in 2003

so did trane need help ? at that stage of his withering subset of harmonic ideas ? ddi A&R men set up all those "new" ensemble albums (that all the chicago groups had already exhausted much more democratically by that stage anyway, having largely surpassed trane by then)

sanders did not get rewarded fir the JCOA efforts or the cherry collab much, so he languished in loungey Thembi and 'fire music" mystic tangerine dream of "creator has a master plan" dross -- hippy crossover career fall-back from the edge -- and he was the edge in the last days of trane's progress

so, given (i presume) the Marley/Hendrix type/scale money trail, and since i'm told these late japanese "sketches" are the best by some people and the worst by others, maybe i'll bother

it appears to add weight to my point -- trane needed all the help he could get to stumble through his last years in search of that harmonic spread, that "lost chord" he could never get to, not with all the cosmetics of those ensemble "chamber" suites, that ritual (aka "concept albums" as special afro-american mubo-jumbo), that marketing last gasp -- did A&R men drive him to his grave ?

(the whole trane disintegration _is_ pathetic, Charlie Parker Revisited industry-wise, another black jazz martyr ?)

julio, trane went through many groups but always got total credits (for his estate ?) -- well, did sanders get any credit for the japanese last gasp ? did he deserve any, in your opinion ? and is this material more interesting than Mitchell/Jarman, Smith/Rivers, Coleman/Braxton, Lyons/Ayler, etc. etc. ?

and just like big-fuck Davis, why support the Impulse man trane, players who were "over" (that's "sold/over" and "cred/over", yet
"credibility over"), given what the world was going to wake up to with the non-pop non-re-issue-friendly non-"fire music" ?

Also, I'm sure that none of Sanders' 60s albums were made with the intention of crossover or his career in mind. I remember Richard Davis talking about those sessions, and how they were best feeling ones he remembers, everyone hanging out in the studio with all kinds of food, being relaxed and getting on the same wavelength. It sounds genuine and heartfelt to me, although very much of the time (which is not a bad thing).

BYG reissues are currently coming from three different sources on CD, and one on vinyl. There are, on CD:

-reissues in mini-LP sleeves on Sunspots (Italian label)

-reissues in jewel cases on Charly (UK/Euro but available for US prices in US)

-reissues in jewel cases on Fuel 2000 (US, cheap)

On vinyl, they're coming out on Get Back (which is, I believe, owned by the same company that owns Sunspots)

Some stuff is currently out on vinyl but not on CD, like Jimmy Lyons' Other Afternoons and Clifford Thornton's Ketchaoua (both of these are really high on my list, but I don't have a turntable, so I'm stuck waiting for a CD issue).

George, do you even like jazz? You don't like Coltrane, you don't like Miles...a list of performers you do actually like would help convince me you're not just spewing for the sake of spewing.

Compare Tranes knots, the same old angles again and again. Why do you think the public had a hope in hell of understanding him if he (could have) changed the bitter-sweet yearnings, that "quest", the struggle of breaking out ? He could only sell that stuff because the public could follow his ever-non-changing harmonic language.

To the record industry he's a gravy train, and you just have to love "A love Supreme" (a tedious homage to god, as he died) -- it's wretched blaxploitation. But it would only work if the harmonics were dumb enough to make sense to the public (why else revisit "My Favourite Things" ?)

Comparing Trane to all the players listed up thread and Trane for all his legendary speed and "misunderstood sheets of sound" is the pop sell-out for the whole movement, the Christian while other bands were Muslim, the big-label big-seller when others routinely faced discrimination on most fronts (and especially from the industry).

Post Trane developements boiled Ayler, Coleman, Lyons etc. and their harmonic advances and continued questing with Coltrane's "energy" (and that's too positive to be realistic as well). Listen to the other guys from round them and since, revisit Trane and expect to be bored with (in his case only) the numerous box-sets, breaking ground in the most tedious slow moving way. Trane, he sold it to some of the public, but he's sounded boring compared to almost everyone else ever since.

And all those cd re-issues cf: the discrete no-over-sell of all the contemporaries, the modesty of the others cf: trane's seemingly confused or frustrated bluster, and you're gonna get bored real quick.

His harmonics were superceded even as he was still alive. Use him as an entry point to jazz, sure, but everything else you listen to in his wake yet from those times is almost guarenteed to be more interesting.

But it would only work if the harmonics were dumb enough to make sense to the public (why else revisit "My Favourite Things" ?)

So playing modally is that much more 'dumb' than playing with no tonal center? When he was playing it in his later years that one chord wasn't exactly tying him or anyone else down, it's just a melody to start from.

Anyway, I don't really understand where you're coming from with more or less 'advanced' harmony of free-jazzers. At that time Ayler, Coleman, and Trane were all working with few to zero specified chord changes after originally coming from playing bebop/straight-ahead, they were all playing what they heard, which is why they sound different, not more advanced (to me).

the towering industry pop-jazz of Davis and Coltrane -- that'll make me spew

you don't have to like all jazz to like some jazz, obv., but i thought you knew that ?? jeez, are you more of an "acid jazz" fan ? i presume not, but based on years of wasted listening, that Coltrane (more so than Davis) is a black-hole i would urge all to avoid, so they can get to the interesting stuff, of course

and you don't think i'm referring to stuff i like up thread when i'm slamming trane just because i don't name each artist ?

i'd be happy to run threads on the careers of numerous jazz artists i actually find interesting, and i wish there was more of that sort of activity around here, but lists, just to convince you, however many records you've reveiwed .. that's not the right way to use this format (unless extensive hyperlinking were used, and you have the ear of george w bush)

do you think i'd waste my time here writing all this warning people that there's better, much better out there than Trane, unless i wanted people to enjoy this other music more ? Unless i felt i knew it, in addition to believing it ? Really ?

i resent your suggestion that i would be rude enough to posture using this forum in this way -- maybe what i think of trane is not the received wisdom,
but i arrived at that opinion listening to lot's of jazz and enjoying it,
not by compliling fucking "mix-tapes" or "train-lists".

the towering industry pop-jazz of Davis and Coltrane -- that'll make me spew

you don't have to like all jazz to like some jazz, obv., but i thought you knew that ?? jeez, are you more of an "acid jazz" fan ? i presume not, but based on years of wasted listening, that Coltrane (more so than Davis) is a black-hole i would urge all to avoid, so they can get to the interesting stuff, of course

and you don't think i'm referring to stuff i like up thread when i'm slamming trane just because i don't name each artist ?

i'd be happy to run threads on the careers of numerous jazz artists i actually find interesting, and i wish there was more of that sort of activity around here, but lists, just to convince you, however many records you've reveiwed .. that's not the right way to use this format (unless extensive hyperlinking were used, and you have the ear of george w bush)

do you think i'd waste my time here writing all this warning people that there's better, much better out there than Trane, unless i wanted people to enjoy this other music more ? Unless i felt i knew it, in addition to believing it ? Really ?

i resent your suggestion that i would be rude enough to posture using this forum in this way -- maybe what i think of trane is not the received wisdom,
but i arrived at that opinion listening to lot's of jazz and enjoying it,
not by compliling fucking "mix-tapes" or "training-lists".

Industry pop-jazz though? What struck me after starting with them and later listening to everything else was how different and idiosyncratic their bands sounded. The 60s Miles Quintet in particular, some of that stuff is so twisted and unique sounding (esp. Miles in the Sky, Sorcerer, etc.), it's kind of amazing to believe that, the Miles persona/popularity aside, that these were big selling records.

Anyway.

Those moments when coltrane and sanders are in a duo are fantstic and I think evryone should hear that 'live in japan' 4CD set (found 2nd hand earlier this year: what's the matter with these ppl ?!). I like 'meditations' too. 'ascension' isn't as good group effort as 'The magic city' or 'machine gun' but that's a hard thing to pull off. Still has its moments.

But Miles? He was constantly pushing the envelope compositionally (either himself or encouraging his band members) and making all the players around him better. As much so in the '60s than at any other time. I can maybe see not liking Miles as a personality or because he was 'pop' or something, but his contributions to jazz compositionally, the players he nurtured and encouraged, always moving forward; it's impossible to generalize about him enough to understand a distaste for him.

I sort of agree with George that Coltrane was pursuing (despite initial impressions) a fairly limited palette, but what he did within that range is still miles ahead of what anybody else at the time was doing with their limited palettes. (Saxophonists anyway; Cecil Taylor was, of course, a whole world unto himself.)

I like lots of other 60s free players just fine, but Coltrane really does leave them in the dust in terms of the emotional/physical impact of his music. His tone's better than Shepp's, better than Sanders', certainly better than Ayler, whose cult I've never understood, and I tried, I really did, but even Spiritual Unity just leaves me completely cold. The guy I really like from those years, the really unsung hero to my ear, is Dewey Redman. Tarik is a fucking tremendous record, and it's out on CD again now, so there's no excuse for not hearing it.

My problem with Coltrane is that he went too far in the direction of folks like Shepp, Sanders and Ayler, and his music suffered for it. He managed to recover before he died (listen to what he's doing on Live In Japan vs. what Sanders is doing, never mind the absolutely mind-roasting Interstellar Space), but he was thrown off track and into the realm of empty-headed screamalong bullshit. I mean, listen to the Archie Shepp records from that period and tell me that guy's got anything at all going on more than half the time. Live In Antibes and Four For Trane are pretty good, and Yasmina, A Black Woman has its moments, but Live In San Francisco is just uninspired crap, and Three For A Quarter, One For A Dime is even worse. Pharaoh didn't get good until a year or so after Coltrane died—his best records are Izipho Zam and Black Unity from '69 and '71 respectively. Ornette was basically dead to the world in the mid- to late 60s, as far as I can tell. I don't like any of his Blue Note records - he didn't come back until Crisis and Friends & Neighbors. So really, who stands tall like Coltrane? Nobody that I can see/hear, except the Art Ensemble, who like Cecil Taylor were off in a world of their own, and their solo stuff sucked anyway (check out Jarman's As If It Were The Seasons sometime if you don't believe me, and you've got an hour of your life you don't want back).

Anyway, someone tell me which free Coltrane to start with. I've not gotten further than Meditations yet.

What is Tarik like? I saw it in the store a few weeks ago...I haven't heard too much Dewey Redman, but I like him with Ornette and I love his playing on Matt Wilson's As Wave Follows Wave.

And then there's science fiction, In all languages, chappaqua suite: not fire music but that's not what 'free' jazz is all abt really. bought another two coleman recs over the weekend and will give a listen as soon as possible.

Ayler I love: spiritual unity is one of my faves recs but the there's the grenwich one, the one on hatology, sonny's time now, new york eye and ear control, i can def understand the 'cult' of ayler...coltrane did some good stuff but I've easily spent more time with him (his singing is good too, aiming for that expression that ornette's violin is) (see also milford graves percussion ensemble) (obv cecil when he went into his full on improv but I only have that one on revenant from the 60s but lots of great thing from the 70s right through the 90s).

The sharrock was def ok, sun ra's group improv on magic city and then strange strings. Marshall allen on other cuts ppl!!!

Pharoah really took upped the game on those coltrane records and 'live...' (sorry to bang on abt that one) really captures it.

And yes Braxton too.

Try Interstellar Space, Sun Ship and Stellar Regions. Don't get the 4-CD Live In Japan box, or Live At The Village Vanguard Again or Live In Seattle, until you've liked those others, because the live ones are hard going. Also, see if you can find an old GRP disc called First Meditations; it's "Meditations" for quartet, and it's much prettier than the later one with Sanders, Ali, et al.

>What is Tarik like?

It's a saxophone trio date with Malachi Favors on bass and I forget who (because I don't have the disc in front of me) on drums. The first track is Middle Eastern sounding drone stuff with Redman on musette or something similar. The other tracks are free but bluesy, and quite swinging.

They are (if anyone else is piling up BYG titles like I am):

Sunny Murray, Homage To Africa
Jimmy Lyons, Other Afternoons
Clifford Thornton, Ketchaoua
Frank Wright, One For John
Jacques Coursil, Black Suite
Arthur Jones, Scorpio

I got my copy of New Africa from Other Music.

Dismissing the Ornette Blue Note's? You don't like the Golden Circle records? Weird. Heck, I'll stump for Empty Foxhole too, there's a wonderfully playful atmosphere on that record. Denardo is lots of fun to hear.

that's what i mean when i said i liked phil's posts, he doesn't fall back on such things

no offense mr. diamond...

But the Roscoe Mitchell Sextet/Art Ensemble stuff is basically early AEoC minus Jarman, sometimes with a drummer! I think you need to listen to Sound again. Dismissing it so quickly is a shame.

You mean the stuff on the 1967-68 5-CD box?

You can get the box on eBay fairly often. Snap one up. It's worth it.

So what you're saying is my post was inadequate, but when Phil said the records "sucked", that works for you? I said, "It was the first documentation of the AACM and of Mitchell's vision". That's my defense of why it is "important", considering how many heads it blew and the way it introduced many of the approaches to collective improvisation that came to be associated with the AACM: the use of space, the little instruments, the playful aesthetic (in contradistinction to the "fire music" coming out of NYC). Sure one can argue that it has been "bettered" by its participants (I won't disagree), but that is not what I was doing. I just can't imagine any headspace sympathetic to the tradition in which these musicians worked, wherein the early Delmarks are considered to "suck".

Again, I'll take Mitchell's Nonaah and The Maze lps over any number of Art Ensemble releases. A LARGE number of them, in fact.

And Phil, for some of us, dismissing 'Spiritual Unity' or 'Live at the Golden Circle' is jazz-hating on a par w/ any of George's pops at Miles and Trane. 'Spiritual Unity' was the rec that got me into free jazz - 'Ghosts' is just such a great great TUNE, and if Coltrane wasn't pretty consciously trying to 'version' it on 'The Father And The Son And The Holy Ghost' then I'll eat my copy of 'New Grass'. Ayler, of the all free jazzers, seems to best connect 'fire music' (blah) w/ its R+B and gospel roots - listen to that recent Proper Box Set 'The Big Horn' and you'll hear some stunning similarities between the screaming/parping playing of honkers like Illinois Jacquet and Trane, Ayler, Rivers, Shepp, Sanders, Frank Wright etc. etc in full-on out mode. Ayler was TOTALLY the right man to play at Coltrane's funeral.

But yeah, Dewey fuckin' Redman, world's most underrated sax playa - is the drummer on 'Tarik' Ed Blackwell? 'Cos Redman Snr (FUCK jnr) also made a shreddin' duo alb w/ Blackwell some years later. And Dewey is also great as a member of Jarrett's 'American Quartet' - KJ, DR, Charlie Haden and Paul Motian often playing surprisingly free/freaky on albs like 'The Survivor's Suite', 'Expectations' etc. etc.

Yeah, that's him. The name just slipped out of my head.

I don't disagree with any of the points being made here w/r/t Ayler's direct descent from R&B/gospel, or w/r/t Sound being important because it introduces the AACM sound, but historic value doesn't trump sounding good, to me. I like the "roots of AACM" as found on Braxton's Three Compositions Of New Jazz (and his self-titled BYG record) much better.

I may wind up checking out Sound again, though, because as I mentioned I sold my copy a long time ago, and at the point when I listened to it I wasn't all that familiar with the AEOC and was really coming from a Trane-into-Gayle screamfest place w/r/t what I liked in free/out jazz, so maybe now that I'm more into the "little instruments" thing from records like Reese and the Smooth Ones and People In Sorrow I'll dig it more. If I do, I'll recant my earlier statement (though not about the two Jarman discs, because I still do own those, and every time I play 'em I'm disappointed all over again).

Couldn't agree more, Ornette does this too to a degree. But Ayler somehow makes tiny sweet gospel melodies on Spiritual Unity among the squall. But yeah, in Phil's post he started that sentence talking about Coltrane's tone being way better than any other of those players and that's absolutely true.

I'll second (third?) the notion that Sound is really something. I got turned off to AEoC very early on, seemed silly or goofy to me and not in a good way, but then I heard Sound and reconsidered and now like AEoC fine.

er, no.

(scott: I luv ya for that 'lazy post' post upthread).

Actually, there's two different sources doing the vinyl. Get Back! is doing pretty much everything, as far as I can tell, but there's another label releasing 180gm vinyl versions (and some coloured) of the BYG/Actual series. I have no idea who's doing them, though, as they use the original BYG/Actual artwork and logos, but they have the black and gold "180 gm virgin vinyl. Good enough for an audiophile, rocking enough for you!" or whatever that sticker says on 'em, not the Get Back! stickers. They're $3 or $4 cheaper that the Get Back! pressings, too. The following have been released:

Art Ensemble of Chicago - Reese And The Smooth Ones -180g 
Lyons, Jimmy - Other Afternoons -180gm
Silva, Alan - Luna Surface -180g 
Murray, Sunny - Sunshine -180g 
Fontaine, Brigitte - L'Incendie -180g 
Sharrock, Sonny - Monkey-Pockie-Boo 
Shepp, Archie - Live at the Panafrican Festival 180g 
Murray, Sunny - An Even Break (Never Give A Sucker) -180g 
Murray, Sunny - Homage To Africa - 180g 
Moncur III, Grachan - New Africa -180g 
Cherry, Don - "Mu" First Part -180g 
Art Ensemble of Chicago - Message To Our Folks -180g 
Art Ensemble of Chicago -A Jackson In Your House -180g 
Shepp, Archie - Poem For Malcom -180g 
Shepp, Archie - Live in Antibes Vol. 2 -180g 
Shepp, Archie - Live in Antibes Vol. 2 -180g 
Shepp, Archie - Live in Antibes Vol. 1 -180g 
Shepp, Archie - Yasmina, A Black Woman - 180g 
Musica Elettronica Viva - The Sound Pool (180g) 
Sun Ra - The Solar-Myth Approach Vol. 2 (ltd colour LP) 
Sun Ra - The Solar-Myth Approach Vol. 1 (ltd colour LP) 
Sun Ra - Solar-Myth Approach Vol. 2 
Sun Ra - Solar Myth Approach Vol 1 180g 
Sun Ra - Solar Myth Approach Vol 2 

sorry, i was momentarily distracted...

and the there were all these trane records, from modal stuff through to the for me then more intriguing later works -- and while i liked listening to him, it was his tone and his choice of notes -- it stayed intact for me, right through to intersellar space -- always an element of sameness. i got sick of his sound. i can identify him in ten seconds i imagine, get bored in a couple of minutes. it's not that he was just easier to access, more that despite (no because) being on all those records, his taste in pitch and tone gradually bored me.
so he inspired quite a lot.. (even if the chicago guys inspired each other, esp. Mitchell) but he stepped aside. why did impulse stick with him if no-one bought his '65 onwards records ? why did the chicago guys have to go to the continent to get a record deal (except for the occasional Chuch Nessas of this world) ?

the trane myth, the trane out-takes rollouts (that happened in the '80s, not just on cd), trane is like a compromise to me, a place holder between marketing that was easy and marketing the truth. it's all the other people that did not get the impulse treatment (except for occasional token seesions), it shouldn't get in the way of me liking trane, but to my ear, he does represent the mid-point between the industies "new thang" campaign (endless "high-brow" discussions in Playboy magazine) aimed at white bachelors, and the uh "niggas" in the deal.

anyway that initial overview -- well it was easier to pursue Cecil Taylor records since it seemed more were printed, but i had to have the rest of Air, and part of that rhythm section worked with the early "ayler-period" david murray who i also liked in trio.
and of course all those art ensembles recorded in france were also floating around, but i got fed up with some of them (especially "Brain on the Seine" amd Lester Bowie's supposedly semi-satirical compositions)

so i ended up seeing Mitchell as a prime mover and so have lot's of records of his and braxton's (but not abrahms, who's maybe not fast enough cf: taylor, maybe conservative, but then i haven't heard all of those albums of his) -- i prefer Mitchell to the AECO too

all these guys fed off trane's work to various extents (and they were reacting to Coleman and Ayler too, obv.) and i'm no musician, but i know several horn players who will worship coleman on the one hand and yawn at trane on the other.

(oh, "jazz haters", i don't hate them, i feel sorry for them)

It is true, George, that Coltrane was held up as the figurehead for the avant garde movement because he first, or at least most famous, of the previous generation of jazz musicians to embrace. He played with Miles, did Blue Train and Giant Steps, now he's hanging with Pharoah and Rashid Ali = he was more able than anyone to lend legitimacy to it. That doesn't mean that he was somehow fake or insincere though, and because he was coming from playing straight-ahead and from years of trying to incrementally push his playing beyond conventional boundaries, I think there is that greater desire for structure and internal logic in his free playing that I find appealing.

i don't see him as fake or insincere, just boring, stuck in that logic you refer to -- i do not see him as a control freak (that is not what his playing sounds like to me)

like sonic youth -- alt. guitar tunings in place, they did all they could with them, with that harmonic logic -- an innovation, but there were only so many good songs sonic youth could produce with alt tunings -- obv. trane was very talented though and died too young to perhaps fulfill all his ideas more interestingly, whereas sonic youth have overstayed their welcome and seem mainly worried about strategies for being cool -- although they were once the real thing, they're now the definitive fakes

his (Ornette's) violin playing is terrific (because it doesn't sound that technically accomplished actually...can't quite put into words but he was just going for some sort of expression (the sort you can't get through technique, i don't know what i'm saying)

What you're saying is that expression is not only possible and valid when a musician has absolutely no traditional technique on the instrument he has chosen to play but, occasionally, it can be transcendent - which is why confusing musical technique with musical talent is always to be avoided.

Coltrane isn't boring, either.

Sonic Youth have proved with recs like murray street that they still make really good records.

oh man i wanna see george gosset dance to free jazz!!

Wait .. what's this, Julio? There's a new Jimmy Lyons box set?! Information pls!!

so sonic youth just tease me with the absence of their visceral qualities, practically speaking -- but 'definitive fakes' is too strong -- i should not get 'cranky' in public, yearning for the good old days -- it's my own visceral response to the absence, an absence which seems inconsistent with the touring patterns of many other bands -- audience numbers would not be down for a couple of flash gigs in new zealand

i think trane helping the other guys get contracts is a great thing, and the limited exposure he allowed those guys to get and his inspiration to them is probably for me his principal accomplishment and legacy

the parallels between the limited range of harmonics trane seemed to let's say confine himself to and the sonic youth non-blues tuned guitars alternative subset of guitar playing is probably what motivates me to post stuff like this -- maybe for the sake of the people who like this stuff and do not get bored with it, i should shut up

a jimmy lyons box set would be a great thing

I also downloaded 'Numbers 1 and 2' from that boxset and from the one listen I can't quite see why phil disliked 'sound' and yet likes art ensemble.

the british Black Lion label reissued it as "The Great Paris Concert", but beware, there are two different "Great Paris Concerts", the first or "official" one was on Prestige, a 3lp box set with sam rivers and extensive gary giddins notes

only student studies and two related compositons were recorded by BMG, and they made it to Affinity/ Charly/ Black Lion and now Fuel 2000 -- only called "great paris concert" by Black Lion, Student Studies is an intmate well paced taylor/lyons/silva etc. gig -- a great introdution

it's also a gig that doesn't get stuck in just a few chords or the same old "fire music" free jazz ur-tempo -- it's much more subtle in both departments, beautifully all over the place

this reminded me of another free jazz rock star, ornette. He had another truly whacky soundtrack for a film called "Who's Crazy", which this time he more-successfully opposed reproduction of, so the 2lp on Affinity is all the evidence i have of the existence of another fantastic free jazz 2lp recording by one of the rockstars of free jazz "with BYG"

mark s is the only person i've met who's familiar with this record, so he can confirm its existence if its not on any of those lists

'Who's Crazy' is certainly mentioned in the All Music Jazz Guide bk.

i wonder how many people have heard "Who's Crazy" ?

pharoah sanders izipho zam
don cherry eternal rhythm
sun ra cosmic tones for mental therapy
ornette coleman live at the golden circle
marzette watts marzette and co. ("backdrop for urban revolution!!")
albert ayler lorrach, paris 1966 (this should really be complete impulse 2cd)
eric dolphy out to lunch
sam rivers dimensions and extensions
anthony braxton three compositions... (or "for alto" if you're brave)
cecil taylor unit structures

Pharaoh Sanders, Izipho Zam (good luck finding it on CD, though)
Don Cherry, Eternal Rhythm
Sonny Sharrock, Black Woman
Art Ensemble of Chicago, Reese And The Smooth Ones
Cecil Taylor, Student Studies
Sonny Rollins, Our Man In Jazz
Ornette Coleman, The Shape Of Jazz To Come
John Coltrane, Interstellar Space
Frank Wright, Church Number Nine
Grachan Moncur III, New Africa

Dave Holland 'Conference of the Birds', for sheer accessibility. I really love the sense it gives of being totally open yet so relaxed.

Mat Maneri 'Sustain' - I just got this one so its on my mind, but it's growing on me. It just has such an eveloping sound, and the solo spots give it a lot of variety.

Art Ensemble of Chicago 'Fanfare for the Warriors' - I think of this one a lot as a reference when it comes to (slightly) larger group free jazz, maybe because I heard it early on, but they did it so well.

FREE JAZZ: Pick Only Ten

I picked up the CD reish of 'Reese and the Smooth Ones' by the Art Ensemble today (plus 'Echo' by Dave Burrell - who I last heard on David Murray's utterly gorgeous, but most assuredly not Free, 'Ballads' alb - someone was asking abt Murray? He's fuckin' prolific, lotsa releases on DIW (= ultra-expensive Japanese imports), but I esp. like 'Ming' and 'The Hill' (the former, a large group rec w/ ppl like Butch Morris, the insanely great trombone player George Lewis (NOT the dixieland clarinet player!), Donald and Walter's fave Henry Threadgill; the latter, a trio rec with Richard Davis and Joe Chambers! He's also recorded together w/ Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner!) Murray has an absolutely creamy tenor sound, incredible chops, an almost too-easy command of jazz history, and can channel the spirit of Albert Ayler as well as Ware when the mood takes him - but there is a large composed element to most of the music I've heard by him, and I don't think he wld consider himself a 'free jazz' musician, whoever/whatever that is - but he's good, no question abt it

Anyway, I can totally see why Duane, on that other thread, picked 'Reese' for his free jazz top ten, man it's got it all!

Echo is a fucking incredible record, and the gig I'm most pissed about missing this week is Burrell with William Parker and Andrew Cyrille at Joe's Pub this past Sunday night. Oh, well.

also, doesn't Echo just look fabulously right in italics? Echo. see, like that.

ilm correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ornette's Free Jazz is a good place to start, too (to get the full mo), or Ornette's pre-Free Jazz albums in which he's loosening up a lot, like Shape of Jazz to Come or This is Our Music.

what timing bcz today soulseek gave me a copy of Noah howard's 'the black ark' and that would go in my 'top ten'. Arthur doyle is on top form and is really the driving force behind this. 'mount fuji' is the choiciest cut.

and I also burned a copy of Frank wright/muhammad ali duo ('adieu little world'): this is almost as good as frank lowe/rashied ali duo (both modelled on coltrane's 'interstellar space' of course).

''you just never see 'Black Beings' in London, on any format''

that's by Frank lowe right andrew? I've seen a copy of this in ray's jazz shop on LP recently (1st hand, in their avant garde Lps section). you might want to check this out.

rw- I'd say you should go for frank lowe/rashied ali 'duo exchange' on knitting factory. you've probably heard rashied with coltrane, plus this is cheap (my copy cost 10 quid) and its pretty short (two 15 min tracks).

Why that specific one Julio? (as opposed all the others listed so far here and on the other thread)

The first track has one of the great moments of all time for me, when frank is stop starting riffs from his horn, lyrical one moment, barking the other. I love every note. Actually i'll give this a listen tonight and if i can i'll write some more (but I'm sure many others will go for this one).

Maybe you could try Albert ayler's 'spiritual unity' but you also have gary peacock's bass. A duo might be easier to take in (maybe, I think my first 'free' record was a duo but i can't rememeber who it was now).

broheems- its not that i didn't like you linking it in with free improv on that other thread (i'll need to do another list with some short notes sometime later, it wasn't very good at all). just used the opprotunity to look into diff between the two.

I just sent you an e-mail. Look out for that.

Pharaoh Sanders, Izipho Zam (good luck finding it on CD, though)

I got this on Friday in Selectadisc in Soho, London for £2.99! I repeat 2 friggin' 99! Be good to your earholes and buy this and also a very good Sun Ra CD which is also £2.99, called "Spaceways". That's all folks.

I haven't heard figuring (but its on incus) but I'll get to it eventually. hope you're well.

I went to selectadisc and picked the pharoah snaders. its a bit uneven but those moments when pharoah is doing histhing and sharrock is doing his thing at the same time really does it for me.

also got some alan silva: luna surface on LP.

I guess this could be true of lots of genres though. It always seems like more of an issue for me with jazz. I almost want to keep my minimal jazz interests secret around real jazz heads, because otherwise they'll be expecting me to nod in agreement about the great ones (who I'm willing to concede probably are or were genuinely great, without necessarily enjoying them).

I do feel a quiet tinge of sadness at all the people who say free jazz is the only jazz they find accessible. Not so much in an elitist way; more that I feel like I have a musical language I can't share with a lot of other people who love music.

Straight ahead jazz benefits from some minimal training -- learning to follow the chord progressions, etc. Once I learned to follow it, I really found/continue to find it incredibly fulfilling. I think it's unfortunate that the pervasive attitude today, even among people with very complex musical tastes, seems to be that music shouldn't have any requisite knowledge for enjoyment.

in my opinion.

also, "the only kind of modern art i have bothered with is jackson pollock and stuff like that"

-- mig (later_wittgenstei...), November 10th, 2003.

(hey mig where are you?)

Is that really true if you include minimalists or (as kyle gann class them) post-minimalist composers. those guys do seem to bridge the gap.

you just never see 'Black Beings' in London, on any format

Bought it from a remainder cd shop connected to a Dublin bookshop about 10 years back, fierce record.Dunno about London or how rare an occasion me finding that in Dublin was. Was a great cd shop, shame its not a focus there any more. But then Chapters isn't where it was nor in 3 separate premises. Was a very rewarding trawl spending a couple hours going through both of their cd shop premises.

Re: the title: I get where people are coming from, but part of the enjoyment of 'rule breaking' music comes from understanding what rules they're breaking, and why. This is what makes free jazz jazz after all, and not free rock, or whatever.