Indie Fans Who Would Otherwise Write In Their Regular Speech Using Negro Talk When Discussing Rap: C/D

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yo fo shizzle my nizzle on da reals fo sho shizz nazz nizzle u copped dat new sigur rizzle jizzy jizzay yet nizzay fo shizzay dat da shizzay my nizz nazz nizzay on da rizzay im a prizzay it is extra hot ooh can you feel da hotness it is actually like my skizzay is mizzay meltin' hot yo

― dickk, Friday, 14 November 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

People thinly veiling their racism behind accusing others: C or D?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

it's fun to talk funny talk

― stevem (blueski), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Word

― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

people who realise writing "style" is not natural but rather "learned" using variations in different contexts c/d?

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

An intelligent discussion of this topic sans racism: Adopting slang: Wack or Dope?

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.uni-bielefeld.de/idm/semiotik/saussure-photo.jpg
"This thread is most wack."

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

deir all puzzyazz mothafuckas yknow't'am'say'n

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

God damn it:

http://www.uni-bielefeld.de/idm/semiotik/saussure-photo.jpg

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir talking Ebonics: the funniest thing evah?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

People without any grasp of how language develops, classic or classic?

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

sigur rizzle = ha
this thread = dud

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 14 November 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I've noticed I'm way more likely to use rap slang when talking about other types of music than rap, mainly because I really like rap, but I don't feel like I, uh, y'know, whatever...I don't want to look lame when I'm talking about rap, because rap is cooler than indie rock. indie rock it's okay to be a geek.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 14 November 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Indie Fans Who Would Otherwise Write In Their Regular Speech Using Negro Talk...
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa...thread poster will have to define, in detail, what they mean by "Negro Talk".
Is the thread poster implying that all "Negroes" talk the same?

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

wiggaz - classic or dud

accusing people of being wiggaz - classic or dud

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

shockingly enough this is a regular who is guilty of same

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

haha and they're british to boot if we wanna talk about third hand guilt here

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Figures.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Although the practice in question does kinda bug the living shit out of me. But anyway.

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

spot of tea, then, brohizzle?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

shockingly enough this is a regular who is guilty of same

How can you tell, jess? ip search brings up 5 different posters

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

terrible thread title

― Vic (Vic), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

only three "different" posters, pash, and i have my suspicions that at least one of those "different" posters is the same. even still, the two main offenders are guilty, guilty, guilty!

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"Negro-talk" = "speaks like W.E.B. DuBois"

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

i just think the whole thread is suspect becaue i guess if you put on an act 24/7 then it's acceptable...just like pop music!

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.lamericapromotions.com/im/dave_lee.jpg

People should copy me. I invented dance music I did. That's why the only work I can get nowadays is as a talking head on TV clip shows on at 3 in the morning.

― Joey Negro (Dom Passantino), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

ATTN. IF YOU REGULARLY POST TO AN INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD YOU ARE NOT DOWN WITH THE STREETS IN ANY WAY, thank you

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Insert lame "But I love Mike Skinner" joke here.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Even if your name is Hillis 3000, Hollywood or Qoolout?

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

ESPECIALLY them

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

despite what blount may think in his noble-savage mode, picking apart the peccadillos of tupac lyrics DOES NOT make you "realer" than anyone else on ilm

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

But drinking a half-dozen forties in 3 hours and peeing on print-outs of said tupac lyrics does!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 14 November 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

ATTN. IF YOU REGULARLY POST TO AN INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD YOU ARE NOT DOWN WITH THE STREETS IN ANY
WAY, thank you

the internet is the new streets, yo.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Whats that Sage Francis line?

"Writing a thesis on ebonics unconcious of using poor grammar..."

― ddrake, Friday, 14 November 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i believe that's called "shit"

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i believe that's called "self-conscious shit"

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

the internet is the new streets, yo.

Except it isn't, is it?

― Lynskey (Lynskey), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

What does "fo shizzle ma nizzle" mean? Is it zombie-blowjob talk?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

nick do you live in a cave?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, even osama bin laden had video eqiupment

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Hip-Hop Fans Who Would Otherwise Write In Their Negro Talk Using Regular Speech When Discussing Lame Shit: C/D?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

er "Indie", my bad.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

According to The Philadelphia Inquirer I live in "the quaint little English village of Devon". So yes, pretty much a cave. But I never watch television and only watch hyperviolent Japanese and French films. And old film noir. And pornography.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

MTV described where I live as "the little town of Devon".

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, like with our slang. Black people always used to say, "I'm in the house" instead of "I'm here." But then white people all started to say "in the house" so we switched it to "in the hizzouse." Hizzouse became hizzizzouse, and then white folk started saying that, and we had to change it to hizzie, then "in the hizzle" which we had to change to "hizzle fo shizzle," and now, because white people say "hizzle fo shizzle," we have to say "flippity floppity floop."

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

howcome the Philadelphia Inquirer and MTV are doing stories on you Nick?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Cos I'm fucking great, obviously.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Or possibly they were actually about someone interesting who lives up the road (the road being the M5). Like, say, some 16-year-old middle class white girl who is the new Aretha Franklin. Or something.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

because her house burned down and she refused to clean it up?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Dom, you are wonderful.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

because she is afraid of airplanes?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick Southall speaks of the albaJOSS. Her voice really is something though.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it dodgy of me to want to shag her?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

it's never good to hump yr neighbours

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Good point.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

unless they're HOT teenaged POP stars!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Yay!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

back to topic, what if white people totally stopped emulating black/urban culture?
would it still be cool? I mean, the fact that whitey cops the move surely adds to it's value, no? even if it's abandoned as soon as it's seen on Drew Carey or whatever show it is that white people watch.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

"adds to its value"?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

to its hip-factor value
oh wait, I see what you mean. duh. I've been doing that all day.

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Question:
What would constitute a "black" person using "Anglo" speak?

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

"Good Day, Good Sir"

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"Good Day, Good Sir" = the best Peter Gomes impression EVAH.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Does it count when rappers make fun of Italians?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

No, nobody likes the fucking wops.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

What would constitute a "black" person using "Anglo" speak?

http://www.widomaker.com/~jdwatson/images/urkel.jpg
????????????????????

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm mildly to extremely ashamed of myself for that.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I want black MCs to use the words "bitchin'" and "gnarly" more often

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

throw in tubular and cowabunga while you're at it

― Felcher (Felcher), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I rock radical gnarly rips/like gladys rocked the pips/TOTALLY!/I'm drinking moonshine while my designated driver drives soberly/it's totally bitchin'/oh now you're trying to be a dick?/then I'll defeat you like I ride my board down to shore on some tubular rips/COWABUNGA!/got the fever for the jungle/my tape deck rocks Frank Zappa and Mr. Bungle/CHA CHING!

I hope that's not as lame as I think it is.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Is that Northern State?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

What would constitute a "black" person using "Anglo" speak?
Carlton from Fresh Prince Of Bel Air to thread, obviously.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:50 (twenty-two years ago)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00003CXD3.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005A1TJ.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― Broheems (diamond), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Nate, did you know that white people even say Pete Rock is bitchin'?

― oops (Oops), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

subthread: has anyone else noticed Westwood slipping back into his natural RP more and more in recent months?

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

He's just pissed off that Trevor Nelson got Fightbox.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

What would constitute a "black" person using "Anglo" speak?
Carlton from Fresh Prince Of Bel Air to thread, obviously.

ouch

Yeah, but he doesn't count. He's a fictional character. (I wonder if the actor who plays is actually like a Five Percent Nation Muslim or something.)

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

So, has anybody here seen the movie Death Race 2000? Remember the scene at the beggining of the race where, Frankenstein I beleive, put his car in reverse and ran over the members of his own crew for extra points? Wasn't it awesome?

Doesn't really have anything to do with this thread, but then, the original idea of this thread was retarded.

― David Allen, Friday, 14 November 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, to actually answer the threads original question...
Indie Fans using "Ebonics-style Slang" to talk about rap == Dud.
but
Gangsta Rappers using "Ebonics-style Slang" to talk about Phil Collins == Classic.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

who woulda thought that this thread woulda been saved by Death Race 2000?

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

"who woulda thought that this thread woulda been saved by Death Race 2000?"

Um, I believe the word you're looking for is "saviored"

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

As far as the rappers using white speak:

What about that skit with Andre 3000 and Farnsworth Bentley that sounds like a scene from a community theater play?

Also, I remember a line by Jay-Z where he goes "gnarly dude, puff like Bob Marley dude, [sumthin suthin] like Rastafari do"

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

"Negro talk" = swahili??

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

the question of color is really irrelevant. the specific slang you are referencing is the slang of hip-hop culture not the slang of (stereotypical) black culture.

The kids I teach almost all speak like that: black, hispanic, and two of the three white kids. If you suggested to them that the non-black kids were co-opting the language of a certain race they would look at you like you were an idiot.

the better question to pose is Members of One Musical Clique Adopting Charecteristics of Another Musical Clique C or D. Which is just ridiculous b/c aren't we all a little too old for cliques?

(Also, FWIW, Ebonics is not a good term. Linguists use "African-American English". Ebonics has a derogatory tinge to it.

Also AAE, which is the same as southern english really, is a legtimate dialect. It has its own grammatical structures which speakers *do* follow. The idea that it is merely "improper English" is offensive.

As is the use here of "Negro", you moron.)

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

the question of color is really irrelevant. the specific slang you are referencing is the slang of hip-hop culture not the slang of (stereotypical) black culture.

this is really ridiculous.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

claiming one race is a monoculture is as lame as trying to deny that a particular genre/subculture has roots among a particular race.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

otherwise we're dangerously close to tosches-style "humans should be above the notion of 'race'" white entitlement

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

she didn't deny it had roots in black culture

― oops (Oops), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

You're still not black, Jess.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

the question of color is really irrelevant. the specific slang you are referencing is the slang of hip-hop culture not the slang of (stereotypical) black culture.

perhaps you missed that oops.

nick, dont you have more useless threads to start on ile?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

where is the word 'roots' in that sentence?

― oops (Oops), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

so do you think the Hispanic and White kids in her class are 'acting black'?

― oops (Oops), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Name anything that has a 'use' on here, jess.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

oops, i'm going to play yr silly semantics games heres so you can get your hardon thinking you put one over. let's see if we can get this finished in one sentence: claiming that race is irrelevant in discussing the habits and behaviors of a particular subculture implies that it has reached a point where the dissemination of that subculture around the world has overrided the i,portance of it's historical roots and the people who make up that racial/cultural group, which is obviously total bullshit since the sonics, behaviors, and codes of hip-hop are still determined 80% by african-americans (just turn on the fucking tv.)

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

there are plenty of musical creole cultures around the world, it's just that (other than sonically) hip-hop isn't one of them.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

(unless you can point out what behaviors/clothes/styles/slang its taken from, say, indie rock or dancehall or klezmer.)

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Christ I waited all day for this thread to get nasty! Some of you guys are losing your edge.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I fear Jess may secretly be happy and that this is manifesting itself as near-reason on numerous occasions.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm pretty happy.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

(hurrah however)

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, my basic point when it all comes down is not that hip-hop is a gated community or something but that discounting the role of race in nearly anything that goes on in america (england is another story, one i won't claim to understand in the slightest) isn't just dodgy,it's way too easy and anecdotal evidence of one-love unity doesn't go very far in explaining things like the post (a troll or not) that started this thread.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree totally with Jess on this matter. Race in this country is a whole different kettle of fish though.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

in other words, let's not beat around the bush: i'm glad we're all living this benneton rainbow of a life, but if you polled* a good chunk of this country and asked them what hip-hop slang sounded like it would be "talking black". this is repugnant, sure, but a lot of truths are.

(*i havent done this but i'm waiting for my grant)

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

(the truth of the responses not the "truth" that hip-hop slang = "talking black".)

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, you've all made me miss the start of law and order you bastards

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

(if i were into stats, or astrology, i'd want to time the appearance of these kinds of threads...i swear you could plant crops by them or something)

― typo acapulco (gcannon), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

but the beauty of missing the start of law & order is that there will be several more episodes of it airing shortly!

I always miss the beginning on purpose, that way if I ever accidentally do see the beginning I get to play sleuth: "I wonder which episode this is?" yes, I am a very sad case indeed

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

thank you oops, took the words out of my mouth.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear but in no way am I suggesting that hip-hop culture does not have its roots in black culture. Of course it does. (and so does rock-n-roll for that matter). But we're talking about a culture that's nearly 30 years old. It has moved and is moving beyond those roots.

I didn't feel the need to discuss "roots" as I didn't think it was relevant to my point.

but if you polled* a good chunk of this country and asked them what hip-hop slang sounded like it would be "talking black". this is repugnant, sure, but a lot of truths are.

You mean if you polled white people. Well you know what, most major cities in America are quickly becoming majority non-white so I don't really see what relevance this point has either.

(i do that too John. it is sad when you realize you've seen every episode.)

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

sam perhaps you missed every other point i raised - you know, the whole determination of sonics and social context - in the effort to make yr anecdotal evidence of a couple kids in a class stand up.

and, correct me if i'm wrong, but there's a lot more people in this country than just what live in "most major cities"

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, i may just be a lone nut with a crazy theory, but i don't see to many white faces on bet, "direct effect", in the source, vibe, xxl, murder dog, etc etc etfuckingcetera.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:28 (twenty-two years ago)

What was every other point you made?

And I was speaking of social context. America is becoming less and less white. The fact that we are having this argument proves it.

Also, what happens in major cities does affect culture (especially youth culture) everywhere else.

And, again FWIW, the hundreds of teenagers I deal with every day are very representative of every other teenager in urban areas from LA to St Louis to Chicago to Brooklyn. Thanks to mass pop culture for that.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Yr last x-post brings to mind something I've been wrestling with for the past couple of years. It's not something I've thought out fully so understand that I realize it is a poorly formed and supported argument at this point, but I've feel that mainstream American culture is moving more towards a culture that is commonly represented as hip-hop/urban, although I hate to used color as a demarcation it is neccesary for this point, non-white. Roots in black, hispanic, etc. .the future of American culture belongs to these former subsets of society.

We *all* should be paying close attention to the elements of these (sub)cultures; they will own the future.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Points of differences exist. When one is aware of this, one natural response is to assume that there is a correct side to these points of difference, and one manoeuvres to be on said side. This is true no matter how much self-hate one's chosen music encourages.

So, um, dud.

― B*R*A*D (Brad), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Is there much self-hate among the Indie Fan community?

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:39 (twenty-two years ago)

oops, i'm going to play yr silly semantics games heres so you can get your hardon thinking you put one over.

This says more about you than it does me.

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

they will own the future

haha, sure they will. because influencing the culture = owning the future?

not unless p. diddy starts pouring his cash into the UNCF instead of mink robes and jetskis.

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, my basic point when it all comes down is...that discounting the role of race in nearly anything that goes on in america isn't just dodgy, it's way too easy

arguing that america is becoming less and less white while arguing that race is irrelvant is bullshit no matter how you slice it. either race affects culture (mass or otherwise) or it doesn't.

and as for that mass culture being the great unifier, well, frat boys affecting "hip-hop culture" (even in lowest common denom, trickle-down sense) that will stil mutter "nigger" when a black guy cuts in front of them in line at the grocery store (speaking of anecdotal evidence) might suggest otherwise.

again, claiming anything in america has "moved beyond" race in 2003 is just suspect.

the idea that hip-hop is "the future" (maybe in 1979) is pretty half-assed too.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Diddy Runs the City.

― hstencil, Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:43 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah and my law firm has an affirmative hiring policy keyed to the billboard top 20.

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

"i'm rappin fred/and i'm here to say/i love fruity pebbles/in a major way" = THE END OF RACE HATE

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Not to sidetrack this discussion even further, but to say that kids who grow up in major cities are indicative of kids as a whole just is not true. Sure urban culture affects youth culture, but that's not the same thing as saying it determines it. That's especially true of racial issues. A white kid who "talks black" in Chicago is doing so for different reasons than a white kid who "talks black" in North Dakota.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

no b/c when I said previously America is becoming less and less white I was speaking in a literal sense, not metaphorical (although that by de facto is true as well). These kids, regardless of their color, who are coming up immersed in these cultures will be taking care of the rest of us when we're old.

I never said anything, except maybe hip-hop slang, has moved beyond race. Although I'm always reluctant to cut things along lines of color I admitted a lot of my argument did rest on these lines.

Also I admitted mine was a half-assed argument so yr not really saying anything new. I mean I avoid most serious discussions on ILx for a reason. I do have two jobs and, you know, on a daily basis, try not to warp the minds of our future leaders *too* much.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Keith let me say it plainly: I'm not talking about white kids except the poor ones who live as minorities in otherwise non-white neighborhoods. The suburban kids bite the style of these kids of course but that's b/c of what I claimed above - subculture becoming the main culture.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:49 (twenty-two years ago)

where does mc skat kat fit into all of this?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I hear he's totally pissed at Oliver Wang.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

And Sam, wasn't trying to slam you. It's just that, as someone who grew up in the suburbs but has lived most of his adult life in cities, I sometimes lose track of how my perceptions of "the world" have an urban slant until I go back to the suburbs for a bit. So it's a perspective issue I try to stay conscious of.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

sam, if anything, i ain't mad at ya because i'd much rather an ilm discussion consist of posts with multiple sentences (even argumentative ones) than "snappy" one-liners or lists. (this goes some way towards answering southall's "what on this site has any 'use'" question above.)

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:55 (twenty-two years ago)

alternately: does anyone remember laughter?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey all I do is one-liners mainly b/c I don't have the brain space to make deep, coherent arguments on an internet messageboard. Somethings, though, I feel strongly enough about a topic (like race-related issues) that I can't resist wading in.

Keith, maybe I'm blinded b/c I avoid the suburbs like the plague and am highly suspicious of its inhabitants.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I think sam's point was that hip hop culture is no longer completely synonomous with young black culture.
I don't see what a poll of Americans has to do with anything. You poll Americans and they'd probably tell you Africa is a country.

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:03 (twenty-two years ago)

americans in having nothing to do with america shocker.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

culture = vacuum shocker

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

But her point was that using hip hop slang isn't 'talking black', not that most people would think it was.

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

or wasn't

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

yes that was my original point oops.

alright gentleman, i must grade some papers before I head to job no. 2.

have a good friday night.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Please people let's have some consistency here.

All posts in defense of ebonics on this thread from now on should be written in that style. Like: "'Sup homiez, ebonics sho'nuff constitutes a legtimate dialect what's got's it's own grammaticizzle structures which speakers *do* follow, know'um sayn'. Word."

All posts in criticism of ebonics need to be written in the style of posh english nobility. Like: "I say, my good fellow. You really must realize that this unfortunate perversion of the Queen's english doesn't make a speck of sense, as I inform my manservant Winston so often. He certainly shan't be enjoying the luxury of my employ for much longer- this very morning, I ventured to tell him that I fancied a spot of tea, and the uncouth wretch had the temerity to so crudely retort with 'yo bitch!'"

― sucka (sucka), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:34 (twenty-two years ago)

the prosecution rests, yr honor.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Thou hast not quite graspeth ye English language, my man :-)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Has anybody up in this bitch read the McWhorter book--Doing Our Own Thing, I think it's called, about the decline of the language blahblah. I haven't because I have a new roommate and I don't want him to hear me throwing a book against the wall and muttering to myself, but I'm curious to hear if others have.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:45 (twenty-two years ago)

mcwhorter's book is prob. not as reactionary as you think it is. in fact, it ends w/ a great story about sammy davis jr. freaking out an audience (at an orchestral pops or symphony hall type function) by doing vocalese over a gershwin (?) number. i think it was gershwin. so it's pretty flexible in it's definition of "decline" of language, he's more on about how school textbooks use very little of the vocabulary they used to, how "melancholy" used to make it into sixth-grade reading but now sixth-grade reading material is like dick & jane with complex situations, etc.

also his book "power of babel" is very relevant to this discussion.

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:57 (twenty-two years ago)

its. its. ITS.

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:58 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.adders.org/freeware/pythonwp.gif

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:59 (twenty-two years ago)

(Sorry.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 15 November 2003 01:59 (twenty-two years ago)

That title ("Monty Python's Flying Circus") should of course be spoken in gumby slang...

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 15 November 2003 02:00 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I'm pretty sure there's stuff in there I'd be interested in or even agree with. But I'm sure there'd be book-throwin' moments. (Which doesn't preclude me eventually agreeing with the sentiment that lead to the hurling.)

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 02:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Wowie zowie, what was that, Ned?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 02:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Also Vahid, what were you saying about "Power of Babel"?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

alternately: does anyone remember laughter?
Yes. We hunted it down and strangled the life out of it.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:14 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, no shit.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:23 (twenty-two years ago)

What do you call a fish with no eyes?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Fsh.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

[laughter]

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, laughter is truly dead

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Saturday, 15 November 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I laugh at all of you.

See the ultimate irony of threads like this is I know that if/when Jess and I ever had a beer together in person, we'd have a fucking blast.

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Saturday, 15 November 2003 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i think using phrases like "negro talk" is MUCH dudderer! and i occasionaly slip into yardie/hip-hop slang - it's part of the culture you're discussing, why not? then again, i do it in the real world, too, coz it's fun! and i'm british, jess, wanna start a war?!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Saturday, 15 November 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

how many times do we have to kick your ass before you learn? < /jingoism>

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

oh and re yesterday's point about my use of aol being "oedipal" i thought about this on the way home from work (i am a sad and lonely man, really) and realised it was plain that you had gone completely mental at that point (not least displayed in your warped culinary tastes), simply because england INVENTED america (bad idea, but hey...), thus making us the father, NOT the son, in this anaology and by definition NOT not oedipal. the war of independence was, however, classic oedipus shit, so my only response to you, jess, is well, you know, YA MAMMA! (which neatly brings this post back to the original point of this, admittedly somewhat shitheaded, thread).

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Saturday, 15 November 2003 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

hoping you don't notice the unintentional double-negative literal error above..."not Not oedipal" ... and don't make smartass cracks about freudian slips etc...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Saturday, 15 November 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

actually i just meant "the mother fucking the son", but if you want to be the daddy, that's okay daddy.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

which one of us is a mo'fo, then? and please don't call me daddy, that's probably the most unnerving post i've ever seen in all my time here or on ile

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Saturday, 15 November 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

you english are so uptight.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

oh i give up. you win. i've got work to do and a stiff upper lip to maintain... *shakes head and tuts*

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Saturday, 15 November 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

bye daddy. *blows a kiss*

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 15 November 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

All human life is here.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 15 November 2003 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

only the best bits

― athos magnani (Cozen), Saturday, 15 November 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

kidding on they're worst

― athos magnani (Cozen), Saturday, 15 November 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.images.clango.org/strips/sw793.png

― Gear! (Gear!), Sunday, 16 November 2003 01:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously now folks, it's Captain Picard vs. Han Solo in a sabre duel. Neutral territory, equal weapons. Who wins?

― Lynskey (Lynskey), Sunday, 16 November 2003 02:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Galactus. He'll come in and kick both their asses and use their spaceships for skateboards.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Sunday, 16 November 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously now folks, it's Captain Picard vs. Han Solo in a sabre duel. Neutral territory, equal weapons. Who wins?

THE FANS!

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 16 November 2003 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

keith - if you look at some of the older threads on this topic ("slang: wack or dope") there's quite a bit of talk on slangs v. dialects v. languages v. creoles v. usages etc. etc. the mcwhorter book ("power of babel") is a good primer on the subject.

― vahid (vahid), Sunday, 16 November 2003 03:47 (twenty-two years ago)

This whole thread is hilarity squared. Can i just say WHO GIVES A FUCK? Talk the way you want to whatever colour you are or backround you have. If you don't mind being ridiculed then forget all the political bullshit. I know this won't go down well with all the social-studies students (i.e all the humanities/sciences sadly) but just remove that pole from your ass.

― Pete S, Sunday, 16 November 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Fo' shizzle, old boy.

― Support Squad!, Sunday, 16 November 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Pete S is my new favorite ILxer. Or at least favorite new ILxer.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Sunday, 16 November 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm known to describe things as "dope." Sure, why not? "Dope" is eternal, it's descriptive, it's... you know... fly. I'm not about to start talking about what's "crunk" or start in on the "fo' shizzle" nonsense, though. It's my line in the sand, and I drew it, and perhaps my criteria are arbitrary, but I want a word to be established for several years before I start using it. This has less to do with my race than my age, I think.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 16 November 2003 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Thirtysomething-Plus Music Fans Who Would Otherwise Write In Their Regular Speech Using Teen Slang When Discussing Youth Culture: C/D

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Sunday, 16 November 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Man that's Dark. Mingin', true.

― Pete S, Sunday, 16 November 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

ridicule = extremely political

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 16 November 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

"Thirtysomething-plus Music Fans..."
I think this applies to Charles Shaar Murray. Some of his 70s stuff is amongst the saddest/funniest stuff i've read in this vein

― Pete S, Sunday, 16 November 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it also applies to me more often than it should.
does self-ridicule = political?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Sunday, 16 November 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought CSM was in his 20s when he was writing for the NME in the 70s?

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Sunday, 16 November 2003 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Keith, if you decide so then your bumfluff=political. Politics doesn't exist. It's an abstract/theoretical discipline, like maths.
Oh shit what have i done.....

― Pete S, Sunday, 16 November 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

A thought.

If you're going to have a proper conversation about this, you *have* to get beyond the pointless deconstruction of every element of language, especially when you try and use it in your own favour. Unless you're discussing the language itself, obv. Can't you just accept for the sake of discussion that none of you are racist and simplify the terms you use? Or even, y'know, accept that some of you *may* have a bit of casual racism going on? Just be honest with each other - hiding behind some moral firewall is just going to scramble the meanings of whatever you're trying to say.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

oh i give up. you win. i've got work to do and a stiff upper lip to maintain... *shakes head and tuts*

You misspelled "tits".

― Minister of Making Jess Cry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 November 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

four weeks pass...

(An extremely poor piece of judgment deleted.)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

that is quite possibly one of the most offensive things i've seen on this board.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Quite. I have chosen to remove it. Geir, please don't bother reposting it.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

did it go a little something like this?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I just ran Martin Luther King's famous "I have a dream" speech through a jive translator. Would it be better if I had done it to the Bill Of Rights instead?

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

A little, Mr. Blount.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Well Ned thanks to yr deleting it I just saw one of the funniest things I think Dan's ever said, so yay for that!

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I think this incident quite elegantly crystallises what is wrong with Geir's world view.

― Andrew (enneff), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:42 (twenty-two years ago)

(Deleted with the wind.)

― DarrensCoq, Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Aw fuck, that's rough. Mod, delete that too.

― DarrensCoq, Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I was gonna say.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Cheers.

― DarrensCoq, Tuesday, 16 December 2003 03:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Would someone explain why Gears posting of a Martin Luthor King speech, after having been run through a "jive translater", is offensive that you delete it?

― Christopher Rios, Tuesday, 16 December 2003 04:49 (twenty-two years ago)

six months pass...

the title of this post makes me wonder if ILM was about in the 1940s.

― dickvandyke (dickvandyke), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't rap witcha now daddy-o, I'm all busted up on muggles! Skat!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

three years pass...

I just ran Martin Luther King's famous "I have a dream" speech through a jive translator. Would it be better if I had done it to the Bill Of Rights instead?

-- Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, December 15, 2003 7:38 PM (3 years ago)

― gershy, Thursday, 23 August 2007 07:33 (eighteen years ago)

six months pass...