If provocation is the most important part of rock, then Travis and Coldplay seem to have done better than most

I'd just to give a shoutout to my boyz in Limp Bizkit and Good Charlotte.

I know I haven't heard a song by Travis.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone owes me money.

And I'll tell you why - it's SOFT-ROCK. Coldplay aren't the new Radiohead, they're the new bloody Eagles.

The reason why these two bands get so much hatred is both very minor and petty but also very large and all-encompassing. I'll explain.

Travis and Coldplay represent the last phase of the evolution of what is known as "indie" in Great Britain from one form or another. We all know the story of burgeoning indie, although I doubt we all would agree when it began and who it included etc. Let is leave the minor details about rock history aside. Safe to say that the emergent 80's indie scene was an alternative. It sprang out of a generation who could not identify with the majority of music around which to them was associated firmly with both middle-aged housewives dancing on tables at "Jackies' 50th" and your girlfriends' weasely boss who tried to rape her every Christmas party. More than that it was the soundtrack as the Brixton and Toxteth riots took place, when the US went into Central America, Thatcherism took its grip and all manner of horrible 80's things happened. Remember then that the left was more bolshy and the right more stringent. Things were polarised and it was Level 42 vs. The Cure or whichever bands you want to put into that equation. You get the idea.

So we had an alienated youth with their own culture and identity, however petulant and "I'm-not-going-to-tidy-my-room-because-of-the-poll-tax" it was. And to these people, it meant a lot. Everybodys youth means a lot. Movement after movement happened, each one picking up a little bit more mainstream success, mostly down to larger labels picking up on the fact that this thing was good for making money.

Fast forward a bit and we get to the coming of Oasis. At first, we thought "Great!", another Rosesy guitar band to keep that weasely rapists' favourite records out of the charts. Live Forever gave us the feeling that they had some soul, we thought the swagger and the our-kidness was cute. Then, remember that feeling you got when you first heard Cigarettes and Alcohol? You liked it, but you sensed something wasn't right. You caught yourself dancing in an indie disco with a few blokes doing monkey dances swinging bottles of Becks. Fast forward a couple of years and you're leaving the venue because of a huge swarm of rugby lads bellowing "Champagne Supernova" like pissed up elephants. Then you hear Ocean Colour Scene and The Verve and your face goes bone white. Something is deeply, deeply wrong here. You can't even find the indie disco anymore, just more swarms of rugby lads and DJ's who think throwing in American Pie to round off the night is a good idea.

But at the same time Suede, who you realise are never going to be what you thought they would, are doing well, the Div Com keep you happy, you see nice, fresh things like Bis happening that make you smile . . . but the Riverboat Song is everywhere. New Labour have swept in replacing politics with optimism and its almost illegal to say out loud that you think things are taking a turn for the worst.

The optimism slowly turns into apathy. You notice that the act you thought the most of that year were a shambling mess from Scotland who'd actually only produced one EP. There seems to be this gaping hole in the middle of your forehead where something should be, but you've forgotten what it is. Right about this time you start sinking deeper and deeper into a black depression as all you see whipping past you at the lights are cars full of either weasely rapists, Jackies' birthday friends or demented rugby lads.

By now we're in the era of Coldplay and Travis. We're not playing anymore. We're digging Head On The Door out of the old box of tapes, finding more exciting new music in Japan, Germany and Holland than at home, almost breaking into tears when we see Peter Buck enchanting "Hi, this is Peter Buck and you're watching the REM sessions on AOL!", we're looking to the new New Order album for hope . . .

And finally we turn on the radio in the middle of a huge emotional crisis and the question asked, "Why does it always rain on me?", seems so piddling, so trifling compared to the harsh, bleak realities of being alive in Britain in 2003 it's ridiculous. You've been through AIDS, the Gulf War, Chechnya on the telly and breakups, breakdowns, deaths, births and tears in the real world and all that seems to matter on the radio is a little bit of drizzle on a hoxton fin.

We've come a long way (baby), and some of us are fucking shocked by how far. Yes, we're looking at our youth through rose-tinted spectacles and forgetting a lot of things, but fuck it, it's OUR youth, we own it, and we can remember it any fucking way we want.

So that's why a certain portion of us are haters. We don't just feel sold-out, we feel powerless to stop this steamroller of blanditude from destroying some stupid teenage ideal we had. It hurts.

And what really hurts is that we know that out there is some meek little unpopular kid and we really wonder what the hell is catering for them as they run home crying and full of anger because the rugby team and the future attendees of Jackies 50th are picking on them at school.

Idealistic? Yes. Misguided? Yes. But lets not forget that people carved words in their arms, hung themselves, shot themselves, overdosed and lost their minds for this. Not anymore. These days people are shagging Gwyneth Paltrow and covering Britney songs on their B-sides. This country is turning into a mass cabaret night with Smirnoff Ice a pound a bottle, and for some of us there is this little 15 year old voice in our heads that won't allow it, lest it call us frauds.

That's why we hate Coldplay. That's why we hate Travis.

there's a 'string quartet tribute' version of clocks that i'm in love with at the moment. it's a bit like that cod-vivaldi debeers theme, only coldplay...so even more bankrupt and mercilessly effective emotionally.

Where are Bis now?

Yes, it's about growing up but it's also about social and cultural cha . . I'm wasting my time. Go and stick on a Richard Ashcroft solo album and, for preference, go fuck yourself whilst doing so.

(for the purpose of the inevitable flame-war, I'm off to bed now and I'll be in Manchester tommorow having a meeting with a small part of the music industry that hasn't sucumbed to this wave of asinine filth - ENJOY YOURSELVES!)

They have unfortunately recently "split-up" and are concentrating on their side-projects. The brothers' 'Dirty Hospital' which is really dirty electro, and Manda Rin and husband's electro-punk 'The Kitchen' project. They are planning to work together under a different moniker in the future because, despite putting out some excellent releases following an impressive artistic development (the damb-squid of the debut album aside), they felt their music wasn't - and possibly never would be - taken seriously because of preconception.

And Coldplay and Travis don't provoke me, but they certainly bore me. Currently residing in the 'Why are they now?" file.

And I don't buy this stupid rebellion thing at all. ALL music that has ever been supposed to be "rebellious" I have hated. Music is supposed to be nice and pleasant and entertaining, preferrably through good tunes. Music is not supposed to piss people off (other than those who have the misguided idea that that exactly what music is supposed to).

Coldplay and Travis have good tunes. Whoever has good tunes deserves respect. Bury hip-hop and dance instead, as the tunes aren't around in those genres.

Something which ruffles a few feathers', get's people going, 'oh my, what can they be playing at'. Maybe a little rough at the edges. Perhaps lacking in melody, but made up for by the joie de vivre and the feeling that someone is trying to communicate something important, despite not having the technology, money or skill to produce something slick and well crafted. Something which breaks the rules and hey, maybe pisses a few people off at the same time?

Nah, didn't think so. BTW what do you think of the secret track on The man who, is that a nice song?

I am fairly sure the unpopular kids of today have loads of music to listen to, it just isn't the same as the music the unpopular kids of 15 years ago listened to, thankfully.

I also think the whole cult of people cutting themselves or hanging themselves is nothing to be praised or even anything very significant, just quite sad.

I can't shake the feeling Lynskey's post is just "in my day things were different" for the mid to late 20 year old and attitudes like that shaft "the kids" and this generation more than a thousand Chris Martins.

Anyone consider the possibility that people really are happier now? Without raping the unpopular kid of their bands either, there must be millions of albums out there for him/her too.

I know your mood altering drug of choice isn't prescription, Ronan, but lots of peoples' are. And 'choice' doesn't really come into it.

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Wha'? Oh hold on it's Geir, that explains it.

Coldplay are still guilty of some of the above so Geir's not wholly right but he's more right than alot of the people on this thread.

Where's Tico Tico, he might agree with me!

Travis aren't rock. They ceased being rock with "The Man Who". They are now a pop band, only slightly more melancholic than most pop bands are.

WAIT A MINUTE. Are you saying that nine years ago you got yourself au fait with a slew of rinsin' jungle 12"s and uncategorisable isolationist blah BEFORE deciding "no this is all rubbish you can't hear a word these bastards are saying"?

And if not, what does that statement even MEAN?

I also loved Crowded House, but they weren't part of a trend, they were just a one-off.

"Those two bands have managed to piss off considerably more people than Sex Pistols, Eminem, Public Enemy, Burzum, The Who nor Rolling Stones have ever managed."

Clarse...

I remember reading years ago that Rednex' "Cotton Eye Joe" had been No.1 in Norway for something like 20 weeks and then its follow-up "Old Pop In An Oak" immediately succeeded it for another 10. Since then I feel I've had a special insight into what drove Geir to become the critic he is.

Or possibly not, as the case may be. Geir's on form today.

There isn't much to rebel against anymore granted, so I feel that any experimentalism or deliberate turn against merely trying to appeal to as many people as possible is done purely in the interests of progression and furthering the realm of art (which music is) rather than to 'shake up the system' now.

I guess Lynskey and I are more or less the same age and indie as we understood it is now more or less the same thing as folk was when we were kids: basically finished but with a few true believers ageing in the back rooms of pubs (and a hit now and again).

I think all the bashing of Geir is a bit knee-jerk. It's a good question: the loathing heaped upon Travis and Coldplay seems to me way out of proportion to their (in)offensiveness. Maybe it's a narcissism of small differences thing.

tim = totally correct abt this, I think.

i suppose i was thinking directly of Radiohead and how i have found their approach and attitude more admirable and worthy than that of Travis and Coldplay (seemingly happy to not mess around with their formula much). Entertainment doesn't come into it, this is indie for chrissakes!

(and if so does that make dido the slits of today?)

*also I've never understood the link in the GH philosophy between the primacy of melody and the neccessity of that melody being composed by its performer.

lynksey's post upthread was interesting, but my memory is that 'indie' had devolved into self=parodic, record-collection rock long before o-arse-is et al came along, cf "bandwagonesque", "give out but don't give up" etc. I used to put in the pa system at a big indie disco at around that time, and I remember there being this real feeling of let-down abt the rekkids being played then.

Thank god that's cleared up.

Is it just me or is there less rebellion, less politics, less confrontation in "rock" (whatever that is) in 2003 than there has been at any stage in the last 50 years? In which case, what the fuck is Geir on about?

The only reason this is the case is because it doesn't have the weight of mass popularity behind it, not because a majority of bands have changed their attitudes or tried anything new, sadly.

tom = otm about geir's face being photoshopped onto a pic of hitler.

hold on ...

Pash is right, the fall of indie really is a subjective thing, I felt much the same disappointment with lack of spirit from about '87 onwards and I thought I was late working it out...

One of the things about Geir threads is that everyone starts talking about him in the third person. It's weird! Hey Geir, I don't share much of your taste but I'm glad you're around and I'm sorry you catch so much abuse / sneering.

Yeah I know Ronan but considering the way some people talk to / about him here, it's just as well he doesn't. See, I'm doing it again!

The reason Geir doesn't complain is that he has no interest in what anyone else says or thinks - haven't you worked that out by now? I'm beginning to wonder if he isn't slightly autistiic.

oh fuck yes. i thought it was a revola mix. but i will definitely send out the richard and thomas frost no probs. have you got chris lucey? tim send me your address again. i've lost it. have you went to the drury lane oxfam - this is what i got there today.

stephen malkmus and the jicks - pig lib - 99p
the pattern - fragile awareness - 49p
the clientele - the violet hour - 1.99p (going to sell)
manitoba - hendrix with ko - 99p
dirty three - she has no strings on apollo - 49p (it's an extension of my cat power fetish that i bought this one)
the stands - when this river rolls over you - 49p (am a sucker for singles out of scenes - not albums mind - but singles)
four tet - rounds - 99p (bought this strictly to sell!)
low - trust - £1.99 (i've gotten about four low albums but am going to sit down and actually listen to this all the way through - it will be a first!!)

The Earlies
EP4

The Earlies are an international overthrow of everything. This will send a gasp of horror to the terror-stricken who pretend to know everything about rock'n'roll. EP4 is the Sargent Pepper's for the post-Atari generation of kids who don't give a fuck about the Beatles. This digital collective of transatlantic musicians have made the finest blissed-out psychedelia for the morning after a series of elegiac drug psychoticpanic attacks. Each song is a cohesive alien effort as if HAL from Space Odyssey 2001 conducted an interplanetary arkestra for the easy listening radio stations of Mars. The Earlies are for people who find the earth boring and want to get off. Now. Perfect.

Post your Hongroshopped creations here.

i would love to see Geir post threads like 'recommend me some recent great melodic pop/rock or electronic/synth pop' - or perhaps he doesn't really buy or investigate much new music?

geir would love the earlies.

naw, geir is harmless. it's just king mob rules, dudes.

read, dada. I know you didn't actually post that, but...

Basically because as you say it's offensive to autistic people.

I also count hip-hop as "rock", and youngers who are into Eminem are into Eminem because they know their parents and teachers hate his swearing.
Just another case of pathetic "rebellion", that is.

I subscribe to powerpop mailing lists for that.

http://home.online.no/~knhongro/Geir/antinazi.jpg

Which of course is not "basically" what I'm saying at all, basically.

I'm going to have a stab here and suggest that may have been part of the "joke".

I think you're wrong Geir. The rise of hip hop, urban, r'n'b or whatever you want to call it is as big a shift in popular culture as the flourishing of Rock'n'Roll in the 1950's. Rock will go the way of the big band, swing and the crooner. Still loved by many but not the main feature of the musical landscape.

FWIW I think it's an interesting question to ask, even if based on an unsupported premise.

I'm not sure Steve's theory applies to anyone other than Radiohead -- and then having Pyramid Song (ace pop tune) at no. 1 almost refutes it, doesn't it?

I can see the disillusioned indie theory prob. has some truth in it, but indie kids have always hated sell-outs (ie anyone who gets 'too' popular (c.f. jesus jones when they went shit -- oops I mean sold a few more records than none).

I wanted to rant about Travis having a first single called U16 girls which was horrible and misogynistic and evil and how ironic they became all cosy and acceptable, but I read the lyrics online and it didn't seem that bad. Mind you, I wonder how much the promos of this are now worth -- there always seemed to be dozens floating round student radio stations when it first came out though, so maybe not much...

Re: The HitlerHongroShop. Yes, it's a step too far, but (to quote myself into an age group yet again) the extreme always seems to make an impression. (although I do point you to Geir's quote "And I don't buy this stupid rebellion thing at all"). I'll take it down. Sorry for any personal offence caused to Geir, and to anyone else.

In many ways I do like his convictions, it's nice to see a strongly held belief, no matter how wrong and lacking in passion it is. I'm also glad in someways that he's so far away, I think the reason he riles us is that we can see similar views buggering our precious Merrie England on a daily basis.

I'm away to my meeting now, when I get back I want evidence of at least 5 people carving "4 Geir" into their forearms on a webcam!

a chilling vision of things to come :)

What, you mean NOW?

In Scandinavia = hiding under bridges and belching

http://volcanophoto.com/graphics/preview/i12.jpg

x-posts aplenty!

Hip-hop will die by the time the first hip-hop fans' children grow up to become teenagers, and by the time the first hip-hop fans start working as music teachers.

Oh my fucking GAWD! You really do live an alternate universe! AWESOME!

The fact remains that Africans had no separate word for "music" until after imperialism.

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), April 22nd, 2003.

I don't care what skin colour somebody has or doesn't have.

---------------------------------------------------------

Anybody responsible for such gems as "Ghost Town", "Free Nelson Mandela", "Stereotype" and "Rat Race" is easily classic in my book. Even if their debut album was slightly overrated, particularly when compared to their later, more sophisticated, output.

-- Geir Hongro (geirhong@o), August 29th, 2003.

Jerry Dammers was white

Where exactly?

Thread loses way after 200+ posts shock

(nb - lynksey's post upthread = proof that he is among the best here imo)

As for provocation, rock music, and Coldplay/Travis's supposed ability to "piss off considerably more people than Sex Pistols, Eminem, Public Enemy" etc., I think people might show more ire towards these bands because a great many fans of music like to be excited by music, they like to be surprised, and if there's anything these bands DON'T have in their music, that would excitement and surprises. And the thought that they piss off more people than all these folks mentioned really did make me laugh out loud, as I don't recall people ever PROTESTING AGAINST albums being sold/concert performances coming to town, when it's in regards to these bands.

And dave q ON! THE! MONEY!

I do feel weird talking about you in the third person, Geir, but you seem to invite it. I'd like to know why precisely you are so strong in your convictions and so negative when it comes to taking on board other people's opinions.

see you next week keith.

this would actually seem to be true - but Orbital are the common ground :)

X-post - I love dave q.

(julio wins)

(again)

Seriously, I would imagine someone looking for climactic melodic complexity would be more of a Sun Ra or Monk or Parliament-Funkadelic fan or something.

That being said, I love both bands.

But fantastic.

Lynskey, Geir, Dave Q, Julio, Tom, Stevem and many others, you've just cheered up my day no end. Thanks!

Nickalicious otm. But both Lynskey and Geir could be accused of breaking this rule.

1. He would not pass the Turing Test.

2. Anxiety that I neither so to batter him down.

I've enjoyed what people have said, I'm slightly annoyed I didn't see more people jumping on the cause of "not being a tosser". Some of Geir's comments amuse me - I love the climax thing, I was thinking of throwing in the DJ Shadow quote about music being about orgasm and revolution somewhere in the middle of my rant. Lovely doctrine.

Basically I want to clear up a few things about what I posted for the benefit of those out there that are misguided lambs. The "We" used throughout is used as a counterpoint to what is essentially a highly personal story. It's dead clever. Glad to see you spotted it, serf. For those utterly clueless, the point of the story wasn't the increasing age of the protagonist, it was the awful decline. I also apologise to those outside Britain, it was a very British story.

I'm in love with the pissy-liberal bit which starts trying to bring the Hitlershop into things. OOOOOO! Offensive thing! Burn it! Make some leaflets! We MUST make a minor scale fanzine movement against this terror!

Most of the other useful points I could make are useless Geir-correctors. If you're in, you're in, if you ain't, you ain't. If anyone wants to come on in, then drop me a line. I realise I'm twatting my head against a bullshit consensus-reality Scandanavian here. If you want a better world, let me know, my email is always open and our energy will beat these fuckers down. Between us we have the tools and the talent to make it happen. Let's get it on.

See you tommorow for more fun and games, I've had a great night. Mucho Boozo

P