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Pitchfork Begins A "Redux" of Top 90's List

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It's on the front-page right now, from 100-61.

At first glance, I like it better than the first; however I'm going to have to withhold judgment until it's complete. I'm holding my breath for Biggie right now.

― Matt Boch (Matt Boch), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:19 (twenty-two years ago)

it's an interesting idea in theory, if just to see how their/general views about the decade have changed in 4 years, but really it just smacks of revisionist history, "we were always down with Illmatic!". I wonder if Ryan will delete the old list eventually.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:24 (twenty-two years ago)

They've relabeled the old one as "http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/top/90s [1999]/" so I doubt it's going anywhere.

― Matt Boch (Matt Boch), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:29 (twenty-two years ago)

ah, yes, you're right.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:32 (twenty-two years ago)

It's amazing just how much more hip hop there is now. Can we safely assume that this actually represents a concrete shift in the way indie-rock kids *think* about music? Who's more responsible - Timbaland or Jurassic 5?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:34 (twenty-two years ago)

De La was my number one.

― Rollie Pemberton (Rollie Pemberton), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I hope to hell Timbaland.

I think that Pitchfork's open mind may not be representative of all the indie-rockers. In my experience, most aren't as open to listening to all the disparate genres that Pitchfork presently embraces, although I've seen the "urban" radio station on a lot of presents recently.

― Matt Boch (Matt Boch), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i like how "open-minded" always equals "uncritically likes chartpop crap"

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:52 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks for clearing that up, jack.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)

hahaha "open-minded" really means "uncritically likes chartpop crap after ridiculing it for a couple of years!"

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)

hstencil is right. i am wrong.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Indie-rock kids might have also gotten a bad rap as rockists/snobs/elitists. Once exposed to hip-hop/pop/etc., if Pitchfork is an indication, they (I/we) jumped right on board. It was just a matter of exposure.

More hostility to hip-hop and pop seems to come from casual rock fans, metalheads and the like. "Indie" has such a diverse range of styles within it, the acceptance by indie-kids shouldn't be too surprising.

(First time after puberty that the Walls of Rock were broken down by a pure/true pop song -vs. alternapop - "Genie In A Bottle")

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 24 November 2003 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"open-minded" = "making up for lost time"

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 08:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't wait until Pitchfork reviews the new Cassandra Wilson CD.

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 24 November 2003 08:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Now hstencil is OTM.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 24 November 2003 08:02 (twenty-two years ago)

as far as i am concerned the start of the new list is pretty much as terrible as the previous version -- i mean, the breeders twice? wtf? i cant argue with some of the hip hop choices because they are good albums -- though im not sure they are the Tops of the Pops or whatever. then again groupmush lists always lead to a steaming bowl of mediocrity anyway and are pretty much worthless. The Law Of Averages flattens everthing and paints the world Grey.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 November 2003 08:03 (twenty-two years ago)

What's the deepest fall thus far? Wasn't one of the Breeders albums a top-20 the first time?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 24 November 2003 08:04 (twenty-two years ago)

last splash was 31 -- pod wasnt on it.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 November 2003 08:11 (twenty-two years ago)

looking at it thus far, it seems like there's some reverse-indie-guilt at play.

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 08:16 (twenty-two years ago)

oh wait, scratch that, just plain ol' indie guilt.

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 08:17 (twenty-two years ago)

They got a lot of irate mail over the past few years about that list. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the revisionist impulse, which thus far has only manifested itself in a blurb following the Odelay review.

AMG is all about revising everything. Coldplay's first went from 2 to 4 stars. Pinkerton went from 3 to 5. It's like that column in Rolling Stone where they pick out old albums to give 5 stars, except it happens week to week.

― Matt Boch (Matt Boch), Monday, 24 November 2003 08:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i like how "open-minded" always equals "uncritically likes chartpop crap"

I'm confused. Where is the chartpop on that list?

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 24 November 2003 08:35 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.billboard.com/billboard/images/interface_internal/fred120x120.gif

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 November 2003 08:44 (twenty-two years ago)

It's kinda cute how you fmbb guys circle the wagons when any sign of pop vs indie crops up.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 24 November 2003 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

What's 'fmbb'?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 24 November 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

It's much funnier than The Onion these days.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 24 November 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

its abit like a trip down memory lane.. but you lot are always on with the lists...

― Savin All My Love 4 u (Savin 4ll my (heart) 4u), Monday, 24 November 2003 11:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Is anyone else sick of lists like this? It's like Rolling Stone's current ish, or when alt-weeklies have theme issues where all of the other regular content is squeezed to the next edition....I'd rather just have five reviews of new records.

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Monday, 24 November 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

"They got a lot of irate mail over the past few years about that list. I'm sure that has a lot to do with the revisionist impulse, which thus far has only manifested itself in a blurb following the Odelay review.

AMG is all about revising everything. Coldplay's first went from 2 to 4 stars. Pinkerton went from 3 to 5. It's like that column in Rolling Stone where they pick out old albums to give 5 stars, except it happens week to week.

-- Matt Boch (mcboc...), November 24th, 2003."

granted, they don't do it as much as AMG, but it does happen. if he thinks noone will notice, Schreiber will go back and tweak ratings after the fact.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 24 November 2003 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Wha? Phish Billy Breathes? Huh?

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 24 November 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Wha? Phish Billy Breathes? Huh?

That's what I was thinking. I went back and checked the old list and realized I remembered nothing about it. I doubt I'll remember much about the redux list when they tackle it again in 2008.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Monday, 24 November 2003 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

They really love Blur over at Pitchfork, don't they?

I mean, I like those records a lot, but it's weird to see so many Blur records on a list like this.

Ditto Sunny Day Real Estate.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 24 November 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

They really love Blur over at Pitchfork, don't they?

Correction: Brent DiCrescenzo loves Blur.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Correction: Brent DiCrescenzo loves Blur.

Eh, same difference.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

it's great that hstencil and jack cole won't ever change their minds about anything, what a fine trait that is!

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

beliefs are worthless unless you STICK WITH THEM UNTIL THE END. anything else is just GUILT!!!

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

could someone put up a link to the actual article?
for some reason my browser won't load the pfork front page,even though i can read individual articles...

― robin (robin), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

It's kinda cute how you fmbb guys circle the wagons when any sign of pop vs indie crops up.
-- bnw (rilke...), November 24th, 2003 3:32 AM. (link)

it's great that hstencil and jack cole won't ever change their minds about anything, what a fine trait that is!
-- Ronan (ronan.fitzgerald...), November 24th, 2003 8:25 AM. (link)

Labelling FMBB patrons (or ex-patrons) as some kind of kneejerk indie defense squad is somewhat misguided. Both jack cole and hstencil had just as many negative things to say about popular music there as they do here. And, while I only agree with them 25% of the time, I love them both very much *smooch*.

As for the FMBB itself, the place has been on life support for nearly two years. I wish some brave soul would just remove the feeding tube.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

what is fmbb?

― robin (robin), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

A once proud, but now shameful, music discussion forum.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

FMBB = Fake Matador Bulletin Board

It was created after the original Matador Records bulletin board was taken down, but it took on a life of its own.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I've been listening to a lot more chartpop lately, directly because of this board. For instance, someone recently touted the new Britney Spears album (was it Chuck Eddy? It may as well have been), and I ran right out and discovered for myself that it's a pale, cold, lifeless exercise in formula. Thank, ILM!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks, obv.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

You should have listened to Marcello Carlin re Britney. One must select carefully amongst the "ILM Opinion."

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 24 November 2003 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I think In the Zone is in Sterling's top 10, actually.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, he's the culprit! WTF? This record is so stupid!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

kenan weren't you the guy who posted the 1993 list of all those pale, cold, lifeless exercises in alt-rock formula?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

also, fiddo's crystal ball is a bit sad he forgot to break the whole list last night. c'es la vie.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Indie. It was exercises in indie rock formula.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

there was no difference in 1993, sillyhead

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

One man's pale, cold, lifeless formula is another man's... something...

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

bonny, warm, lively formula?

Ugh, that sounds like power pop.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm surprised at things like Liquid Swords being BEHIND Company Flow...I expected a higher rating for bother LS and OB4CL, but I suppose they split some votes. Its nice to see the inclusion of hip hop...refreshing. Even if I suspect that this inclusion is bottom-weighted, and once we get to the top of the list, it'll be dominatd by indie.
What I find interesting is how indie fans have latched on to the mainstream and canonical hip hop while dismissing the same rock albums in favor of more offbeat releases (Co Flow and KMD excepted)

btw, maaaaaad props go out to pfork for including Mr. Hood...finally appreciated by some sort of critical est.

― ddrake, Monday, 24 November 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

i need to remember to sneak "bonny" into my next review

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

preferrably about r. kelly

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Is Goo, an average Sonic Youth release, really better than Liquid Swords and OB4CL?

― ddrake, Monday, 24 November 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

"My 'bonny' lies over the other side of this junior school playground fence".

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

link to the article itself?
anyone?

― robin (robin), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.pitchforkmedia.com

it's all over the front page.

I'm really anti-90s at the moment.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

i am pro 2003

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

i need to remember to sneak "bonny" into my next review

http://www.tnelson.demon.co.uk/cult/images/bonnie_langford.jpg

"I'll pith on you and I'll pith on you until I'm thick"

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

yes that too.

im surprised you'd never heard "the horn track" before btw - what a treat though.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't hold your breath for hip-hop to the top.

― Beta (abeta), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I am pro the '03 bonny and clyde.

I'm pretty fond of the 90's myself, mainly because it's the decade I became a music fan in, but I can see why it kind of feels like the dark ages in some ways, especially in comparison to the decades that preceded it.

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah i was terrorizing my fellow man with it on saturday night. though i think "i've got so much love to give" annoyed them more.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

It's just a fashion thing Al - I've been sick of them since Jan 2000 and will continue to be sick of them until people start reviving them in amusing ways. Most of the really exciting stuff seemed to happen in the first half too.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

i wonder how much we consider the late 90s as part of the 00s.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

is it just on the front page though?
i can load other pages within pfork (eg the black album review) but the front page disagrees with my antiquated browser
i really like that horn song as well,its very familiar,i think it might have been in a dj rupture mix or something...

― robin (robin), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

It seems recently, decades are always the mid year to the following mid-year, ie 1985-1994 is one, and then 1995 to now.

Actually 1985-1990 is like a decade by itself.

― dleone (dleone), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

it showed up as "horns for 94" (minus egyptian lover samples) on some big comp of the time, can't remember which though. but it was on earlier comps too.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

i own no drum n bass/'ardcore whatsoever though
i probably should rectify this,although i'm not sure how...

― robin (robin), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

without seeing the complete staff lists you can make no judgements. sadly Ryan doesn't print those! (Someone might actually do the math.) Having tallied the first list and taken part of the new one, I can say that there has not been a sudden "discovery" or any "revisionism" towards hip-hop in general. The original lists had records like Black Sheep, Pharcyde, Common, CoFlow, etc. The REAL shift in thinking has been towards an embracing of Massively Popular Hiphop. To these kids, accepting Biggie was like accepting Bon Jovi. Now that a few years have passed and the 90s rappers have, for the most part, been completely replaced by a new crop, they can comfortably rave about Billboard toppers without seemingly coalescing to the mainstream. It's like this: the 2003 Best Of list will undoubtedly prop records like Atmosphere, Jaylib, something off Puma Strut, Murs, P.U.T.S., etc., but the "Best of the '00s" list in 2013 will stick with 50 Cent.

These are indie kids. It's never about race anxiety. It's ALWAYS about popularity anxiety.

I can't wait until we "discover" reggae and redo the list with Sizzla and Lady Saw. Or J-Pop. Throw some Hide With Spread Beaver in there.

As awkward as the first 90s list was, it was honest and a true representative of what the writers listened to. Now it's what the writers think people should listen to, or what they want the readers to think they're listening to.

― brent_D, Monday, 24 November 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Apparently, the records they think people should listen to are generally better than the ones they actually listen to.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 24 November 2003 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

perhaps, yes. But it doesn't make for interesting reading. It won't lead people into checking out something they've never heard. It's obvious and redundant. This list serves no purpose other than atonement for some writers. Why not just hop over to acclaimedmusic.net and see the complete consensus?

― brent_D, Monday, 24 November 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Let me guess, #1 is the 1990 reissue of Sgt. Pepper.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

What would you have liked to see on the list, Brent? I mean, I'm just glad Tilt made it. It's not like most polls return something other than a consensus.

― dleone (dleone), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

consensus=vanilla.
i maintain that the individual #91-100 were far more telling than the pondered #1-10.

― Beta (abeta), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

This wasn't supposed to be the 100 best albums of the 90s that no one's ever heard - though that might be a good idea for a feature as well. Sure there's some overlap with other critical consensus lists - but there are also differences in individual selections and rankings that make for interesting comparisons. If people are just atoning for indie guilt, then I agree it's a bad idea. But maybe their views on what the best albums are have genuinely shifted.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Individual lists would be WAY more useful and revealing. So Ned Raggett to thread.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)


Absurd to quibble, but both Pod and Goo ahead of Trompe Le Monde?? That don't make no sense!

― gusbot (eternal_fields), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

For instance, I'll be shocked if Oasis makes the top 10 of the Pitchfork list (as it did on the AcclaimedMusic list).

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i have missed why we are talking about 'the horn track', how did that get introduced. i can do you a copy of the trife primer if you like robin (which has much ardcore on it)

― charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Dom: I'd "like" to see us not completely redo the list at all. At least show some humor and do a list of "100 Records We Stupidly Overlooked or Were Too Cool To Not Confess To Loving." Is this really just about the satisfaction of seeing "Tilt" on there? Then run a review of Tilt. Lets review old records. The list stuff is just pointless and confused. Is anyone waiting with baited breath to be told that OK Computer, Loveless, Post, Odelay, The Soft Bulletin, Nevermind... are the best of the 90s? If anything, we should have run the top of the list first, as the bottom, statistically, is going to be the more esotertic and arbitrary.

― brent_D, Monday, 24 November 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

jess mentioned it on his blog charltonlido and since i was replying to a jess post anyway i thought i'd mention it

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i just read jess's blog entry on it.

egyptian empire isnt acen! its Tim Taylor, of ego acid, bang the acid, and rave generator fame

― charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

also the 'top 90s' concept made it on-topic!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

re: brent,
Well, I think you know that not everyone was happy with the old list. In any case, it's still there. Every other music publication reappraises the "classics" every so often, why not pfork? Maybe it's a little too soon to do it, but whatever.

We don't write about old albums unless they're reissued, so I'm happy to hype records that I really do wish everyone would hear. All the more happy to see I'm not alone in this, because as much an opportunity as it is to write for pfork about stuff that not many people are aware of, it's just as frustrating to be labeled "elitist" for doing as much.

― dleone (dleone), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

oops, rave generator was damon wild and ray love, not tim taylor.

1991 First Project - Right Before (Fokus)
1991 Dementia - Dementia (Buzz)
1992 Egyptian Empire - The Horn Track (EX/FFRR)
1992 N2O - Nitrous Oxide (EX 3)
1992 Aurabora - E -Strings (EX)
1993 Dome Patrol - The Cutting Edge (XL)
1993 Lazer Worshippers - Lazer Worschippers (EX 19)
1993 Rising Sons - Afghan Acid (EX 29)
1993 ? 001 - Drums Of Freedom (?)
1994 Wild + Taylor - Bang The Acid (Synewave N.Y.)
1994 Yantra - 360 (Synewave London)
1994 Pump Panel - Ego Acid (Synewave London)
1994 Taylor & Zamani - The Planet Of Drums (Planet Of Drums 01)
1994 Fred 2 (Missile 01)*

― charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Individual lists would be WAY more useful and revealing. So Ned Raggett to thread.

Salut. As it is, I now sense why Chris Ott asked about my list a month ago.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Dom: I guess my real question is why writers were truly "unhappy" about the first list? This seems to say we care what people think of our taste, which I do not. Is this about Eric Carr sweating whether people thinks he likes Phish?

― brent_D, Monday, 24 November 2003 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

gareth,that'd be great,if you get a chance...
as long as you don't mind me oweing you several cds
i should have my cd burner sorted out soon (though i've been saying that for ages) so i'll send you a good few compilations in return once that happens...

― robin (robin), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(gareth-actually i just realised that i do have two ardcore tracks,that house crew one which i downloaded after hearing you and other go on about it here,and one other random track which i think was on your site,and i really liked both of those,so i'd love to hear more...)

― robin (robin), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, Eric Carr's DEAD. They replaced him with a blond guy on 'Revenge', it was the first time they ever had one of those.

― dave q, Monday, 24 November 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Brent, what I took from Ryan's intro was that the staff turnover was also a reason for doing a new list. If there's more hip-hop on this list, part of it may be indie guilt, but part of it may also be that people like Ethan and Rollie are voting, right? I mean, you can look at it as "revisionism," or you can look at it as what naturally happens when the vote is conducted four years later, by an almost entirely different set of writers.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

As for individual lists, Pfork did once publish individual year-end top 10s -- I would very interested in seeing that return.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I understand your point, Brent. However, I think it is only healthy to redo this stuff every now and then. People make the mistake of believing these lists are about what WAS the "best" stuff from the 90s, but they are inevitably about what IS the "best". The "best" is always up for debate, but one can't escape his own perspective.

I don't believe there is any more bias in this list than the first one - which is to say, any decent poll *should* reflect the bias of the participants.

and with that, I'll probably bow out of this thread (unless anyone starts taking shots at my mom)*

*without consulting with me first

― dleone (dleone), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

you can also look at the fact that PF has taken great pains to get Ethan and other token hip hop representatives on the staff, and that stuff like this new list and the singles blog are pretty deliberate gestures to highlight their influence. which may just be a natural result of Ryan's changing tastes and ideas, but it seems to me like he's pretty worried about what people think about PF's lack of or inadequate coverage in certain areas.

(x-post)

― Al (sitcom), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm interested to A) if Laughing Stock made the list this time and B) where Emergency and I comes in

Their healthy new fascination with rap is nice I guess, but I really don't care, I mean it's Pitchfork!

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I am somewhat bemused by the idea that a list stuffed with indie records is "atoning for indie guilt" btw.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

kenan what formula was "brave new girl"!?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 24 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

"It occurred to me that, since we have the means, it might be worthwhile to revisit these lists every few years and see how they change."

The redux project, to me at least, never wanted to be definitive or apologetic, only suggestive and possibly interesting. Beyond the distance of time factor, the Pitchfork staff, for better or worse, is at its most diverse right now, and it was with this in mind that I think Ryan thought it would be "worthwhile": i.e., what sort of common ground is there among (and I am severely pigeonholing here, and only naming a few; apologies) Matt LeMay's affinity for indie rock, Mark Richardson's for electronicy stuff, Rollie's for hip-hop, Scott Plagenhoef's for pop, and Brent DiCrescenzo's for brit-rock? Each is extremely well-informed in my opinion, and each has a very legitimate take on the 1990s, but what might they agree on? The list begets serious debate certainly, and I think that's the only thing it ever wanted.

I think individual lists are being run at some point.

― Nick Sylvester, Monday, 24 November 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

indie, intelligent, new, different, alternative. It seems they all mean the same things to people that music is marketed at. The "as though they've expected with the hindsight of a multimedia education and the opinions of their parents to err on the left" bourgenoid syndrome of giant passive teenage captive audience.

What's been said upthread about "where _are_ the _great_ records" and "where are the responsible negative revisionisms" is OTM. I'd agree that there might be some more realistic figure like 70 records, or perhaps a detailed effort for 500.

Why should indie be locked in a state of "permanent revolution" ? Why shouldn't it take the smoother path of reassuring loyal subscribers ? Ain't most people happier and some richer that way ?

Critics will become instinct when differentiation by consumers will stop through either saturation/ indoctrinalion ("anti-marxist" or anti-community activities) or through indie ideation so widely spread over thousands of competetive bedroom studios that couldn't whip up ["knees up mother brown"]. Music has just become that much more burnt out a preferable consumer activity earlier. A limited paradigm of music has been burnt out on as an idea for too many people too quickly.

Many people i know who work hard now just use music to relax to in a semi-conscious way, and the music they use for that is so easy listening mor etc. that i'd have thought it was music therapy materials.

Aren't Oasis (ridiculously) the last hurrah for egaliterianism in indie or any other idea of using music for dialogue with the public ?
(and i mean western world obv., not Arab smoking music etc..).

All independant editorially organised music .. the consumer business means there's effectively a war on that all of that. The indie ideas might be burnt out, but i think the public is much more largely indifferent beyond the recommendation of their regular a mag or portal or tv screen.

― george gosset (gegoss), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

you so crazy

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, a pretty tangential rant

i guess i forgot to say was that nostalgia is fashionable business for originally aged fans, now just as much as for others with their '60s and '70s music. nostalgia is a proven business model.

(the '80s produced a trough, with only u2 making the fashionable connections back to good time rock'n'roll. are we in a trough now ? i guess some people pray for some new band to roll out now, and the spotlights are out in the hunt for those bands. but the nostalgia business is better off to strike while the iron is hot for that info-denial-of-service vacuum)

― george gosset (gegoss), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

all the indie kids i've known since i left high school always had broad musical taste; they rarely limited themselves to one genre. At the indie haven, the record store, conversations could be had from anything like Sam Bean, Mouse on Mars, Zap Mama or Sean Paul. Maybe the idea that they were elitist and not inclusive in their tastes was a stereotype to begin with....

― mandinina (mandinina), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Is this about Eric Carr sweating whether people thinks he likes Phish?

It was about Ott sweating it - he started this redux thing, and then quit when he didn't want ppl to think he liked Neutral Milk Hotel (among other reasons). (Obv: Beta and Brent are OTM, re: nature of consensus and such. If anyone is 'worried' about there being too much calculated revisionism, just wait until all-Indie Rock Wednesday!)

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Arab smoking music S&D, please.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

This re-engineering of favorites doesn't seem to be a big suprise... however, it does however reek of demographic refining. esp. considering Ott's slip wrt: media domination plans a couple months ago.

In order for Pitchfork to become the most widely read internet music publication means that they have to appeal to more than just a strict indie (itself an increasingly more cult/nostaglia-based) audience (cf: Spin and MTV's struggles to expand their audiences 10-15 years ago).

I'd imagine Pitchfork's advertising clients will also "evolve". Maybe more T&A-based ads for liquor, cigarettes... eventually leading into a more lifestyle-based format a la Maxim, Blender, Stuff.

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

they already have banner ads for porn!

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

ads for neko case records /= porn

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

however, it does however reek of demographic refining

I don't think so. The most natural demographic for Pitchfork to expand into would be more mainstream modern rock, perhaps even nu-metal, etc. - not hip hop. The fact that they are deliberately covering more hip hop looks a bit smarter than a simple demographics grab.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

conspiracy theories: s/d

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I think what Pitchfork should really start doing when reviewing hip-hop records is to ignore lyrics completely.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I think what Pitchfork should really start doing when reviewing hip-hop records is to ignore lyrics completely.

Why?

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Because lyrics are for backpackers

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

knock knock

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Who fuck is knocking at my door?

― ddrake, Monday, 24 November 2003 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Indie

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Abstract commercial or the hardcore?

― ddrake, Monday, 24 November 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

a Neutral Milk Hotel conspiracy!

― Beta (abeta), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Indie suxx u r all gay!

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

That joke really didn't go over. It was supposed to be an homage to Nate's SET-SPIKE! re: backpackers... sigh

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I turned it into a GZA reference.

― ddrake, Monday, 24 November 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha, they sabotaged your ass

Anyways, I was being tongue-in-cheek over the "who cares about lyrics, I want to BOUNCE" approach to writing about mainstream rap, which works when you're talking about 50 Cent (90% of what makes his rhymes interesting is his voice and flow) but seems kind of reductionist when you're talking about Jay-Z or various Wu types. (Or the Pharcyde.)

And jeez, I'm embarrassed after reading that Company Flow writeup. That's like every bad indie rap review cliche from 1997 ever compounded into one piece ("but the album is every bad indie rap music cliche--" Shut up.)

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i can also think of a few things more evil than company flow or whatever they said.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, I mean, the beat to "8 Steps to Perfection" is on some dank sinister Brazil air ducts shit, but it's not quite as evil as the Oklahoma City bombing

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

FIDDO'S 90s EVIL LIST

1. ebola
1a. the rwandan genocide
2. http://www.godhatesfags.com
3. bill o'reilly
4. ethnic cleansing in eastern europe
5. lucky strike non-filters
6. okc bombing
7. 4 non blondes
8. hitler's cloned brain
9. company flow
10. my girlfriend, 1999

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

seem, now fiddo's list is one that' is enjoyable. if i have to read a list, i'd much rather read something like that or Ned's 90's thing.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but Ned's 90s thing is certifiably and wantonly deranged.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Yay!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

a list is an extension of a person's tastes. a group list is just diluted beyond any interesting distinction. i may not necessarily like a lot of the stuff on ned's list, but as a whole it does a great job of reflecting ned at the time as a whole -- and that's what a good list should do.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I could imagine a good group list, though - a small group of people with some shared aesthetic could produce one, particularly if it reflected the tensions and arguments in the group too (right-of-replys by other writers explaining why a record SHOULDN'T be there, for instance). Of course that kind of approach would be a bit self-indulgent and confusing to readers but self-indulgence comes with the list territory.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorta like a Focus Group but one where we record the interplay of reactions as well as initial thoughts? That could be v. nice.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

actually something like that, tom, would be pretty interesting if a structure could be developed for it to reflect that friction or chart the discussion within the listmaking -- a list about the process of listmaking, where the end results are in some ways the least important part.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

hahahaha Bill O'Reilly more evil than Slobodan Milosevic!

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom, I think you're looking for VH1's The List

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: "Cut his mic" vs. "Cut his throat"

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

is there any way to see ned's 90s list? i'm intrigued (and horribly uninformed)

― PMK (PMK), Monday, 24 November 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Go nuts.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 24 November 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

merci buckets

― PMK (PMK), Monday, 24 November 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

it'll be interesting to see if OK Computer keeps the throne. it most likely will though.

― Felcher (Felcher), Monday, 24 November 2003 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

"It's like this: the 2003 Best Of list will undoubtedly prop records like Atmosphere, Jaylib, something off Puma Strut, Murs, P.U.T.S., etc"

I fucking hope not, Brent. I mean, really, I don't like....any of those this year. And if I saw MURS in real life, I'd probably punch him for that song with Humpty Hump.

"And jeez, I'm embarrassed after reading that Company Flow writeup. That's like every bad indie rap review cliche from 1997 ever compounded into one piece ("but the album is every bad indie rap music cliche--" Shut up.)"

I almost traded Alex for the Company Flow writeup for my Wu-Tang one but well, I opted for the one that more people would read, right? Fair enough.

― Rollie Pemberton (Rollie Pemberton), Monday, 24 November 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

cuban linx, homework, illmatic, ready to die-- ryan approached me last night to write those four,? i did\\\ still yet to see if nas or big will make it ,hope not as im pretty disappointed w mine) v surprised to see someone elses daft punk blurb hm... ppl talk abt the writers lists, i knw id be interestetd in r.p.s-- heres mine, def some shit i wd change from when i did it two mnths ago but fuck it

1) Various Artists - Bad Boy's Greatest Hits Volume 1
2) Dr. Dre - 2001
3) Various Artists - MTV Party To Go '98
4) Notorious B.I.G. - Ready to Die
5) DJ Rectangle - Ill Rated
6) The Beatnuts - Stone Crazy
7) Puff Daddy and the Family - No Way Out
8) Jay-Z - Vol 3 . . . Life and Times of S. Carter
9) Various Artists - Now Thats What I Call Music! Vol. 2
10) Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliott - Da Real World
11) Pet Shop Boys - Discography
12) Various Artists - Jock Jams Volume 4
13) 2Pac - 2pacalypse Now
14) Big Pun - Capital Punishment
15) Eminem - The Slim Shady LP
16) Wu-Tang Clan - Forever
17) Basement Jaxx - Remedy
18) The Notorious B.I.G. - Life After Death
19) Prince - The Hits 2
20) Gravediggaz - 6 Feet Deep
21) Various Artists - Astralwerks 1999 V.2
22) Notorious B.I.G. - Born Again
23) Fatboy Slim - Better Living Through Chemistry
24) 2Pac – All Eyez On Me
25) Various Artists - The N.W.A. Legacy Volume 1 1988-1998
26) Tear Da Club Up Thugs - Crazyndalazdayz
27) Ma$e - Harlem World
28) Daft Punk - Homework
29) Nice & Smooth - Ain't A Damn Thing Changed
30) Master P - Ghetto D
31) Nas - Illmatic
32) Various Artists - MTV's Amp 2
33) De La Soul - De La Soul Is Dead
34) Soul II Soul - Vol II: 1990-A New Decade
35) Method Man/Redman - Blackout!
36) So So Def Bass All-Stars - Vol. III
37) The Chemical Brothers - Dig Your Own Hole
38) Jay-Z - Vol. 2 ... Hard Knock Life
39) Hot Boy$ - Guerrilla Warfare
40) Destiny's Child - The Writings On The Wall
41) Snoop Doggy Dogg - Doggystyle
42) Orbital – In Sides
43) The Beatnuts - s/t
44) Mobb Deep - Infamous
45) TLC - Crazy Sexy Cool
46) 2 Unlimited - Hits Unlimited
47) Jay-Z - Reasonable Doubt
48) Various Artists - ...And Then There Was Bass
49) Prince Paul - A Prince Among Thieves
50) MC Hammer - Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em
51) The KLF - Chillout
52) Jeru The Damaja - Wrath of the Math
53) Various Artists - Belly OST
55) Crystal Method - Vegas
56) Muggs Presents ... The Soul Assassins Chapter 1
57) Bjork - Post
58) N.W.A. – Efil4zaggin
59) Monica - The Boy is Mine
60) Britney Spears- ...Baby One More Time
61) The Beatnuts - A Musical Massacre
62) Kelis Kaleidoscope
63) Beck - Odelay
64) Three 6 Mafia - Chapter 2: World Domination
65) The Beatnuts - Intoxicated Demons EP
66) Lo Fidelity Allstars – On the Floor at the Boutique
67) Raekwon - Only Built 4 Cuban Linx...
68) Funk Master Flex - 60 Minutes of Funk Vol. III
69) Juvenile - 400 Degreez
70) Smif-N-Wessun - Dah Shinin'
71) Canibus - Can-I-Bus
72) The Beatnuts - A Musical Massacre
73) Capone-N-Noreaga - The War Report
74) The Orb - Orblivion
75) Various Artists - Booty Bass Party Vol. 1
76) Gangstarr - Hard to Earn
77) The KLF - The White Room
78) Bone Thugs-N-Harmony - The Art Of War
79) Various Artists - Totally Hits
80) Redman Doc's Da Name 2000
81) Pastor Troy - We Ready : I Declare War
82) Janet Jackson - The Velvet Rope
83) RZA - Bobby Digital in Stereo
84) Rage Against The Machine - Evil Empire
85) M.O.P. - Firing Squad
86) Naughty By Nature - s/t
87) DMX - It's Dark And Hell Is Hot
90) Spice Girls – Spice
91) Busta Rhymes - When Disaster Strikes...
92) Various Artists - Cruel Intentions OST
93) EPMD - Back In Business
94) The Orb - Adventures Beyond the Ultraworld
95) Limp Bizkit - Significant Other
96) A Tribe Called Quest - Beats, Rhymes & Life
97) En Vogue - Funky Divas
98) Various Artists - Space Jam OST
99) Tag Team - Whoomp (There It Is!)
100) Public Enemy - Fear of a Black Planet

― m.o. (simon_tr), Monday, 24 November 2003 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

omg its the top 50

049 - 0417 - Tom Waits: Bone Machine (BOWERS)

048 - 0423 - Portishead: Dummy (PEMBERTON)

047 - 0436 - Oval: 94diskont (RICHARDSON)

046 - 0438 - Air: Moon Safari (MITCHUM)

045 - 0440 - Godspeed You Black Emperor: F#A#oo (TANGARI)

044 - 0450 - Boredoms: Super Ae (RICHARDSON)

043 - 0459 - R.E.M.: Automatic for the People (DICRESCENZ0)

042 - 0480 - Fugazi: Red Medicine (CARR)

041 - 0481 - Yo La Tengo: Painful (SCHREIBER)

040 - 0482 - Aphex Twin: The Richard D. James Album (CARR)

039 - 0489 - Olivia Tremor Control: Dusk at Cubist Castle (SYLVESTER)

038 - 0499 - Jesus Lizard: Goat (CARR)

037 - 0506 - Magnetic Fields: 69 Love Songs (PLAGENHOEF)

036 - 0567 - Wu-Tang Clan: Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) (PEMBERTON)

035 - 0600 - Boards of Canada: Music Has the Right to Children (PLAGENHOEF)

034 - 0610 - Beastie Boys: Check Your Head (LEONE)

033 - 0612 - Notorious B.I.G.: Ready to Die (OMAR)

032 - 0614 - Nas: Illmatic (OMAR)

031 - 0616 - Wilco: Summerteeth (TANGARI)

030 - 0617 - Liz Phair: Exile in Guyville (MITCHUM)

029 - 0618 - Modest Mouse: The Lonesome Crowded West (BOWERS)

028 - 0622 - Pixies: Bossanova (PETRUSICH)

027 - 0640 - Guided by Voices: Alien Lanes (CARR)

026 - 0654 - Weezer: Weezer (Blue Album) (DICRESCENZO)

025 - 0673 - Yo La Tengo: I Can Hear the Heart Beating as One (MITCHUM)

024 - 0685 - Built to Spill: There's Nothing Wrong with Love (MITCHUM)

023 - 0689 - Beta Band: The Three EP's (SYLVESTER)

022 - 0697 - Built to Spill: Perfect from Now On (MORRIS)

021 - 0725 - BjËÝrk: Homogenic (LEONE)

†

020 - 0738 - BjËÝrk: Post (MORRIS)

019 - 0751 - Beck: Odelay (OMAR)

018 - 0770 - Smashing Pumpkins: Siamese Dream (SYLVESTER)

017 - 0780 - Public Enemy: Fear of a Black Planet (LINHARDT)

016 - 0785 - Dismemberment Plan: Emergency & I (MORRIS)

015 - 0801 - Radiohead: The Bends (MORRIS)

014 - 0825 - Belle & Sebastian: If You're Feeling Sinister (PLAGENHOEF)

013 - 0836 - Nirvana: In Utero (TANGARI)

012 - 0842 - Slint: Spiderland (PETRUSICH)

011 - 0870 - Talk Talk: Laughing Stock (DAHLEN)†

010 - 0922 - Guided by Voices: Bee Thousand (LEMAY)

009 - 0927 - Bonnie "Prince" Billy: I See a Darkness (SCHREIBER)

008 - 1080 - Pavement: Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain (MITCHUM)

007 - 1136 - DJ Shadow: ...Endtroducing (SYLVESTER)

006 - 1137 - Nirvana: Nevermind (BOWERS)

005 - 1237 - Pavement: Slanted & Enchanted (BOWERS)

004 - 1303 - Neutral Milk Hotel: In the Aeroplane over the Sea (LEMAY)

003 - 1452 - Flaming Lips: The Soft Bulletin (DICRESCENZO)

002 - 1497 - My Bloody Valentine: Loveless (RICHARDSON)

001 - 1586 - Radiohead: OK Computer (DICRESCENZO)

― m.o. (simon_tr), Monday, 24 November 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

that's a fucking travesty

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Missed this earlier:

they already have banner ads for porn!

SuicideGirls.com is indie porn. (And I'm not even being sarcastic.)

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

can anyone explain to me the point of putting multiple albums by a single band on the list?

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

still, glad to see alex linhardt keeping the old school pitchfork stoopid hyperbole alive. can't wait for the p.e. write up.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

stence i think since the master list was compiled from writers individual lists the inclusion of some artists multiple times is totally explainable, at least from a numbers standpoint

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"I love Italian food! Y'know, like pizza and spaghetti!"

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey, thanks for leaking our list. You fucking jackass.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I just realized that Trife's Cuban Linx review is practically Christgau!

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Laughing Stock!!

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

oh NO, now jess'll never write for pitchfork!!!

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

you'll never work in this town again!!!

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Dahlen, calm down. It's not like we're spamming this all over the Internet ... yet.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

schrieber in not being able to control his own writers shocker

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

haha did no one bother to check the login of the guy who posted the list?!

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Now I wish it was the fuckin' Source (at least pre-Benzino-idiot-vendetta age Source)

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

plus, everybody knows that black foliage is WAY better than dusk at cubist castle.

― Felcher (Felcher), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Modest Mouse > Nas
Generic Sam's Club Dr. Pepper > Sprecher's root beer
Pinto > Maserati

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, my mistake.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm shocked that Bossanova is the highest ranked Pixies album.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

this says less about nate, but only in pfork land could nas being better than modest mouse be a controversial admission

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, I keep forgetting the important "consider the source" caveat

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Why shouldn't there be multiple albums from the same artist?

― oops (Oops), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

diminishes the overall potential for variety in the list, and quite frankly some of those additional albums aren't very good at all.

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

but the aim is to list The Best, regardless of how diverse it is, no?

― oops (Oops), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

well then it clearly fails!

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought the idea of formalism was to, you know, stick to the form

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd like to engage in bitchery about the specifics but the fact that it's done by vote renders that point kind of moot. all i can say is pitchfork's hatred of dance music is much more in effect than their hip-hop cluelessness.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

don't like != hate, esp when it comes to music

― oops (Oops), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

ignorance, maybe

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

so you're saying you can't not like something without being ignorant of it in some way?

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

that's just what he's saying.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I dont think I agree with that at all.

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

[potentially libellous statement self-edited by fiddo moderatington.]

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, in this case, their not-like of oh let's say house music seems to stem from an ignorance of how the genre actually works ("the lyrics are repetitive and stupid!")

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

daft punk's "elegance through simplicity" = the writer has never actually touched a sequencer or drum machine.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:14 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah but in general do you think you can not like something while still being fully aware of it? I'm thinking of your about-face on undie rap specifically, nate.

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 22:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I still like Definitive Jux stuff and various avant-beat nerds and MF Doom and all that, I just like more mainstream rap along with that now. What "about-face"? (what "undie", for that matter? I still can't hear the term "undie rap" without picturing Hammer's video for "Pumps and a Bump")

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

And again, you're speaking in general terms, I'm being specific (see the reviews for Discovery and Rooty and tell me where the "full awareness" is)

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

but I'm not making a claim for Pitchfork, just that I think it's faulty in general to assume that because someone doesn't like something they must be ignorant of it. I mean, in Pitchfork's case regarding house music I don't doubt it's true, but I don't think it's generally true.

― hstencil, Monday, 24 November 2003 22:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't say it was generally true. (Didn't say it wasn't, but context context context!)

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

This will get stupid so I'm going to head off and play Project Gotham 2 and listen to the Strokes. Or the Jam.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't think 'elegance through simplicity' implies anything about daft punk not knowing which buttons to press to make things 'less simple'. (ps i don't feel like re-glancing at the actual blurb so if he says anything about daft punk records being easy to make then you can ignore the above.)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

btw to address something brent said ages ago, why would it be a good idea for a magazine (yes even an internet magazine) to not care about what its readers think about its taste? i think the idea of 'honesty' in this regard is a bit bogus because i'm not sure there's such a thing as a non-social 'taste'

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 24 November 2003 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

"daft punk's "elegance through simplicity" = the writer has never actually touched a sequencer or drum machine. "

why should he have?
surely any art should be judged on the art itself,how it sounds/looks,etc,not technical knowledge about how it was made?

― robin (robin), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

wrong!

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 00:59 (twenty-two years ago)

surely any art should be judged on the art itself

that's an easy argument to make considering we rarely come across art lacking "technical knowledge about how it was made". am i supposed to evaluate rembrandt without a sense of his mastery of oils? can i write reviews of "arab smoking music" if i'm not fluent in arabic? i suppose what i don't trust here is the reviewer. i don't care if he can program a drum break or not; i just sense that he's hearing daft punk as dance music's ramones, which they're not. i have a feeling the pitchforkers may hear skill in biggie's delivery or the fucking champs' chops but when they reach for the idea of "skill" in drum programming all they can come up with is amon tobin. it's weird because they cream themselves all over steve albini but you get the sense they think filter house just comes down to "uh, i dunno, just plugging a filter in, right?"

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:11 (twenty-two years ago)

what if he brushed up against a drum machine at Guitar Center once....would he be able to review the album then?

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:14 (twenty-two years ago)

only if he gave it a 9.5, ranked it in the top 10, and acknowledged their mastery of the tools at hand.

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:15 (twenty-two years ago)

the end product is all that matters. technical knowledge is never necessary, and, in fact, might even be a hindrance.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:16 (twenty-two years ago)

well then the alternative is "great, i as a reviewer don't have any responsibility to do any research, be familiar with the milieu, etc. i just have to not be deaf!"

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Understanding the process deepens appreciation of any art. But in the case of Daft Punk, don't you think it's true that they're not making music to be "appreciated," rather simply danced to? I'm all for using the word "simplicity" there. I have little idea of what went into those beats, but they don't stutter and they don't change. They're simple. And they're fucking great.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Understanding the process deepens appreciation of any art.

Not necessarily.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:31 (twenty-two years ago)

ie seeing the Wizard behind the curtain can make you less appreciative.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:32 (twenty-two years ago)

sure, vahid, if you are doing an article on how the music is made and not reviewing the work itself. im not saying that know about the techniques cant add to or whatever, it just isn't required.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Why did everybody hate the previous list?

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 01:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Why did everybody hate the previous list?

The only real thing wrong with the old list was that we didn't have blurbs for most of the entries, and the new list also has better-looking larger cover art. I mean, aside from Ott complaining about Phish and Walt Mink, that was the only real problem.

I support Ryan's idea to KEEP redoing the list every few years. I think that would be fun: it would be interesting to watch bands like Talk Talk gain influence, or watch how the staff gets more interested in hip-hop or whatever, and it also destroys any claim that the list is "definitive" or "authoritative."

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 02:20 (twenty-two years ago)

ie seeing the Wizard behind the curtain can make you less appreciative.

also to add... there's appreciation of technique and then there's appreciation of the final product. what kind of review are we talking about? university musicians and guitar store dudes will praise the technique because that's the part of the art they actually see as art. meanwhile, the dude in his mazda wants something that bumps so his girlfriend can do silly robot dances in the shotgun.

high art vs. low art? (i hate to put it like that... but...)

m.

― msp, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 02:28 (twenty-two years ago)

was ott complaining about phish because he used to like them and is now embarrassed, or because he didnt like them then, and is embarrassed about being associated by proxy through the group list?

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 07:43 (twenty-two years ago)

A certain knowledge is required to review anything, in a Pitchfork discussion this is a point which has probably been made by someone smart already.

I think what Vahid is saying is that there is a fairly typical and thick assumption at work consistently in bad music criticism, namely that music free from darkness or blackness, or music which charts, or music which is playful, is somehow easier to make. It's the usual indie critic thing of giving points to dullards for their psychological problems manifested on record, as if being willfully obtuse was more difficult than channelling obvious populist impulses into creating a new sound which hits a bigger audience.

I think, to disagree slightly with Vahid, it's not all about technical knowledge, part of it is this ignorant teenage attitude that fun and happiness is for ignorami. I mean lets face it, some of this shit is deeper than Daft Punk, we're talking hardcore artistic prejudices here.

I think Kenan's point isn't really right either, because there isn't a dividing line between appreciating music and dancing to it, Bangalter and Guy-Man, to continue with a laboured example, make music to dance to but it is also to appreciate in the sense that they endeavour to make something NEW to dance to.

Perhaps though this distinction is one I rubbish from the point of view of a dance fan, so it's probably worth pointing out that people who are really into dance music, while they have more fun dancing to records, can sit at computers and listen to them as if they were dancing to them. It's the same feeling.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

was ott complaining about phish because he used to like them and is now embarrassed, or because he didnt like them then, and is embarrassed about being associated by proxy through the group list?

the latter.

― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Am I the only one that doesn't agree with Bossanova being so high?

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Bossanova's only real competition is Trompe le Monde, so yes...you might be the only one.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Bossanova is volatility defined, it's such a heavy record. Trompe's their only pop album, and has its merits, but, it's helium compared to Bossanova. I guess my list was included in the statistical tabulation for this thing (I'd already left the site by then); that would have bumped Bossa up a few notches.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Pitchfork's 90s list doesn't have any Disco Inferno on it!!

*sob* What good is a 90s list if it doesn't have Disco Inferno on it???

*looks at list again; sees the almighty Laughing Stock*

Ehhh I guess it's not all bad.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Another glaring omission: Ween!!

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I was shocked at the lack of Ween on peoples' lists, but in a good way.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I like several songs from Bossanova but I've always felt it was a bit of a disappointment. If I were to make a 90s list I wouldn't include it. Just subjective stuff here, tho.

Bossanova's only real competition is Trompe le Monde, so yes...you might be the only one.

So the Pixies get an automatic spot? What is this? The BCS? =)

I'm betting on The Soft Bulletin @ #2 and Loveless @ #1.

Was anybody else surprised to see Matthew Herbert? Somewhere out there Scott Plagenhoef is smiling.

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Sooooooooo Riot Grrl never happened is whatwe're saying, right?

― ModJ (ModJ), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

how many female critics does pitchfork have btw?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

genuinely curious

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

We know the answer is probably none. But still...

― ModJ (ModJ), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

So the Pixies get an automatic spot? What is this? The BCS? =)

Yes, the Pixies are the Oklahoma of rock n' roll.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

the pixies are the texas of rock n roll

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Imagine: Kim Deal in a cheerleading get-up.

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah... no...

― ModJ (ModJ), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Current female critics at Pitchfork = 1, Amanda Petrusich.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Would U2 be Notre Dame?

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah!

― ModJ (ModJ), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

so wait, does pitchfork actually not have ANY female writers? ryan pfork = hootie johnson?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Penn State?

Bobo = Joe Paterno

― ModJ (ModJ), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Imagine: Kim Deal in a cheerleading get-up.

I do...every night.

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Bono, rather

― ModJ (ModJ), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm betting on The Soft Bulletin @ #2 and Loveless @ #1.

Uh, Ben -- Trife posted the full list upthread. (You are very close.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

haha. I'm a tard. I've just been referencing their site...which isn't revealing the top 20 until tomorrow.

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

indie rock is alot like the pac 10 only with considerably less scoring

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

What school would Momus be?

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

devry

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Not Pac 10. He'd be Pepperdine or some golf school like that...

― ModJ (ModJ), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

OH NO MY EYES! HOW AM I GOING TO SAVE THE WORLD WHEN MY EYES HAVE BEEN BURNT OUT BY MR SMITH WITH AN ELECTRIC CABLE?! FUXXORS!!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i am really curious to see the old kung-fu movie starring "old dirty bastard"

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I think pfm just wanted a few days off. what better and quicker way to waste time than to make a rehashed version of an old feature.

Pointless.

― clint o'hanrahanranhan, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

i never figured out which shaw brothers movie "old dirty bastard" was in reference to (i've seen most of them). i think it's a reference to "Dirty Ho" (1979, dir. Liu Chia-Liang) which i own and recommend.

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

What Riot Grrl albums would chart in a Top 100 of the 90s-- Crackerbash? Heavens to Betsy? The first Excuse Seventeen record?

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

it would be great if crackerbash was in pitchfork's top 10 riot grrl records of the 90s because there isn't a grrl (or a female) in the band!

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

why don't the other pitchforkers who post here post their lists? We promise not to make fun

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

What Riot Grrl albums would chart in a Top 100 of the 90s-- Crackerbash? Heavens to Betsy? The first Excuse Seventeen record?

Huggy Bear- Taking the Rough with the Smooch

― Ryan WS (fffv), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Reject All American

Call The Dr.

― ModJ (ModJ), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

To be fair, there are Bjork records on the list, and she is a girl

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)

technically she's a sprite

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Sean Croghan (Crackerbash) is as opposite of a riot grrl as you can get. The leader of many terrible bands (most recent being Nota Notas), yes; a riot grrl, no.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm really a boy.

― Amanda Petrusich, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

did johnny cash write a song about you? did it make you tougher?

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

A sprite, Blount? Like a wood sprite, or an '80s video game image? Or both?

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I might agree with that, Ryan. Love that one, but, I don't see it making it onto a concensus Top 100. Crackerbash played with all those bands, don't be so sexist.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)


i think my favorite riot grrl group remains babes in toyland... "fontanelle"... of course, i haven't heard it in 10 years, so maybe nostalgia is helping.
m.

― msp, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

um, are Babes In Toyland really riot grrl? i thought they were more of just a rock band with girls like L7 minus the overt Feminist posturing like Bikini Kill.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

my favorite riot grrl act is unit 3 w/ venus

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.poshboy.com/Graphics/unit3_2.jpg

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

eh.... what do i know? i was too busy playing dnd to really care at the time. the record just screamed a lot and rocked. with girls.

i was also probably drunk on straight edge at the time as well.
m.

― msp, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

gyg, that rules. i'm printing that out and thumbtacking it on my wall now.
m.

― msp, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

X-----X forever.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Jack I'd say the first two were Riot Grrl records. "Dust Cake Boy", "He's My Thing", "Swamp Pussy", "Laugh my Head Off"...

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

was Stu Spasm a riot grrl too?

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

indie rock is alot like the pac 10 only with considerably less scoring
-- cinniblount (littlejohnnyjewe...), November 25th, 2003.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What school would Momus be?


momus = stanford marching band

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

pavement thanks the usc marching band on CRCR therefore blount is correct

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

*sob* What good is a 90s list if it doesn't have Disco Inferno on it???

*looks at list again; sees the almighty Laughing Stock*

there was at least one writer who put *both* of those in his top 20. ;)

I do think that myself and Ryan were the only two to have voted for Disco Inferno. (perhaps andy beta as well?)

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 22:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm really a boy.

-- Amanda Petrusich (amand...)

Do you look like this?

http://membres.lycos.fr/chicagohope/Acteurs/Patinkin.jpg

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously, I want to see individual lists, too. Anyone?

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't believe Modest Mouse is that high. I don't particularly care for the Flaming Lips or Radiohead, but I can understand how they made it that high.

But Modest Mouse? That album has six good songs to start with (up through the "Jesus Christ Was An Only Child" or maybe the cockroach one - whichever was later) and then nothing.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I do look like that. Maybe slightly blonder. (I promise, the Pitchfork staff is really quite adorable!)

The push toward a democratic mean makes every by-committee list a little curious (as plenty of folks have pointed out.) I think Ryan will eventually run our individual lists as an antidote of sorts. Then, of course, the grievances can get more personal.

― Amanda Petrusich, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Instead of Modest Mouse, they need The Reverend Horton Heat's Full Custom Gospel Sounds. Sure, everything after that was a steep decline, but what a great album.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 06:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"modern r&b should have as much rhythm" as the dismemberment plan? mm hmm, yeah, whatever. talk to the head hand. btw is there one thing approaching a modern r&b record on the list? on most lists? do we need a modern r&b canon? is it because it doesn't have an 'underground'?

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 08:10 (twenty-two years ago)

rob mitchum stole our precious "otm"! and for a pavement blurb of all things! i wonder if it was subliminal.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 08:21 (twenty-two years ago)

is it really suprising that someone too timid to use the word "suck" without appending quotation marks (unless that's the 'get out' clause) would find 'endtroducing' the most exciting (and innovative and bottomless and timeless and original and brilliant what with its combination of jazz and funk loops with horror movie samples and ambient noise, DESPITE its reliance on "hip hop technique") records (even including "other music" that isnt hiphop wow!!) of 1996?

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 08:37 (twenty-two years ago)

(not hiphop's strongest year arguably but hey it saw "reasonable doubt" and "hell on earth")

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 08:41 (twenty-two years ago)

phew, turns out that it was grunge that begat creed and nickelback, not nirvana, they are still safe to love!! unless of course you are uncool and also full of shit and not trying hard enough.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 08:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey Mitch,

That was just me being melodramatic! All hip-hop sucks, btw.

― Nick Sylvester, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 08:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, aren't we blaming Creedleback on Pearl Jam?

― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 08:55 (twenty-two years ago)

with all the mumbled gibberish on 'slanted and enchanted' who could have predicted that just 12 years later it'd be this painful to watch it's lyrics twisted into working as 'eerily' relevant social commentary (actually i'll take a brief respite from this morning's bitchiness and comment that this blurb reminds me of something i see in my own writing - when i've got 10 ideas [read: puns] and instead of choosing the best on and working around that i try and force all 10 in, and then think of another 3 and a half while i'm doing that)(maybe here, being a pavement review and all, this is intentional).

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:01 (twenty-two years ago)

quiet nick, this is the most fun i've had in hours (ps fans of melodrama may also want to check out mobb deep's "hell on earth")

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:03 (twenty-two years ago)

The quotes around suck btw were to make reference to 'why hip-hop sucks in 1996', and was not a reflection of my timidity. my timidity comes out in the fact that while i love 50 cent, i am also scared of him.

― Nick Sylvester, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:07 (twenty-two years ago)

haha, imagine if it really was a criminal act to underappreciate neutral milk hotel band members! move over orwell! and there must've been a better lyric to quote than that "some sort of time machine" line, that reads so badly! "if only i had some sort of time machine... i could stop the holocaust!"

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:09 (twenty-two years ago)

okay nick, i'm schooled, than one missed me. the stuff about the funk loops and horror soundtracks was still pretty weak tho cmon!

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Fair enough. I actually charted "Hell On Earth", but will check it out again

― Nick Sylvester, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:12 (twenty-two years ago)

You're right -- I should have talked about the lyrics more instead

― Nick Sylvester, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:16 (twenty-two years ago)

you know, i like it better when the people we're attacking aren't here to respond. i don't have anything much to say about the heroin-friendly flaming lips review. for some reason, i hope that brent made up the part about the spider bite.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Going to bed -- good night, my new friend!

― Nick Sylvester, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:19 (twenty-two years ago)

nick, just don't make it sound like dj shadow's got more records to choose from than say, oh, rza. or mannie fresh.

xpost, g'night!

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah yeah loveless. (it should have buried the songs even deeper, and just been ALL 'to here knows when' wooziness. i'm going to try listen to it when i'm in the shower today, that should do the trick.)(no, 'the trick' isn't electrocuting myself, ned, haha)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm having some trouble parsing the OKC review, does 'common pleasures' refer to manufactured Pop Stars? anyway brent shouldn't worry.. maybe when we can all download 55 minutes of audio in an instant we'll see the return of The Album! or The Albumette! the Mini Album! "in this age, the wrens have treated us to that most rare of pleasures... The Album!" etc. i suppose if i was a rockist i would be upset too. hee hee.

understanding 'ok computer' as the 'the real' to loveless's 'escapist fantasy blur' is an odd way to hear a record. it feels kinda high-schoolish.. yeah, yeah, well at least My Best Album of the 90s isn't about retreat into womb! people are dying and yuppies are networking you know!!

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:42 (twenty-two years ago)

records to listen to vs. records to live in (the late stages of the FT effect mean i no longer care about the latter, and even when i do it's only to fall asleep to, so they're less like homes and more like comfy sofas i guess)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

okay i'm out, got work to do. is everyone all nitpicked-out? or sleeping?

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Mitch you need to have a blog again. This is great!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 11:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I always wondered why pfork gave I See a Darkness
a 10 and then failed to put them on the initial best of the
90's list... #9 might be a little excessive, though.

Maybe not.

― Stephen Morris, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

mitch have i told you lately that i love you?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, i probably did yesterday

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

no, 'the trick' isn't electrocuting myself, ned, haha

Don't die! That would be depressing and you could not hear more good music.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Amanda is actually Ben Marcus, is what I've heard.

― nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

He lives! Where you been Nabisco?

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I've been sitting at home with no internet, writing short stories about aging jocks with obsessive-compulsive disorders!

― nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

so little has changed then.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Quit wasting time w/ the fiction & the Ivy League nonsense! ILM & Pitchfork need you.

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I'LL BE BACK.

(BTW Mark, check yr email for an annoying question.)

― nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

From: Nabisco
To: Mark

Is hip-hop about to die?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

From: Nabisco
To: Mark
Subject: PRIMAL SCREAM + KATE MOSS = "SOME VELVET MORNING????"

― nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Nabs, no Kompakt for you?

― Beta (abeta), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

This is like some crazy reunion.

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm the one double-dipping in the guac. Phear my cold sore.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish we were all drunk in a bar w/ a good juke.

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

where you motherfucking been david "guac" popshots?!

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy! Due to the whole no-internet thing I didn't catch that email until just yesterday, and I had a bunch of writing to do. Was it awesome?

― nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Here are the (indie)rock misses: Archers, Spoon, Spinanes, Wedding Present, Swervedriver, Mudhoney, Bikini Kill, Superchunk, Velocity Girl, Nothing Painted Blue, Hole, Catpower, Polvo, Versus, Swirlies, Lilys, Hazel, Poster Children, Butterglory, The Fall, Team Dresch, GBV's Propellor? How can you think of the 90's without at least some of the records by these bands?

― littleal, Thursday, 27 November 2003 03:06 (twenty-two years ago)

very, very easily.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 27 November 2003 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, that's a joke right?

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 27 November 2003 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Y'know, there's a right answer here and if we keep trying I know we'll find it

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Thursday, 27 November 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I think we all know the right answer, Chris, we're just afraid to say it.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Thursday, 27 November 2003 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

This guy isn't:

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Sbk/22/6073600_2_4.jpg

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Thursday, 27 November 2003 03:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, screw you IMDB

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Thursday, 27 November 2003 03:29 (twenty-two years ago)

On the subject of "riot girl" albums (please!), of COURSE 'Call The Doctor' needs to be included... "maybe" on the last Bikini Kill but CERTAINLY you need the first Team Dresch! But then, I don't really understand these Pitchfork people--the third Leatherface LP shits all over this shitty crap indie-crap trap any day of the week in my book. Different strokes, ah guess.

― John 2, Thursday, 27 November 2003 04:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Er--shoulda been "shitty rap indie-crap trap" or something. *Burp*

― John 2, Thursday, 27 November 2003 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Individual lists

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 28 November 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Incredible... not one mention of Mark Hollis' solo lp.

― doug watson (solid air), Friday, 28 November 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

i listed it, and while my list did get tallied in the final count, it didn't run (unlike ott's).

― Beta (abeta), Saturday, 29 November 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

wow most of those #1's confirm that i just really dont get people

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 29 November 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

100 Ween Twelve Golden Country Greats
099 Oasis What's the Story (Morning Glory)?
098 Fushitsusha Double Live
097 Mos Def Black on Both Sides
096 Gastr del Sol Upgrade & Afterlife
095 Cypress Hill s/t
094 Soundgarden Superunknown
093 Autechre tri repetae
092 Elliot Smith Either/Or
091 Anti-Pop Consortium Tragic Epilogue
090 No-Neck Blues Band In Public and Private
089 Chemical Brothers Exit Planet Dust
088 Melvins Lysol (aka Melvins)
087 Jungle Brothers J-Beez wit de Remedy
086 Grifters One Sock Missing
085 Ol' Dirty Bastard Nigga Please
084 Beastie Boys Check Your Head
083 Williams, Lucinda Car Wheels on a Gravel Road
082 Souls of Mischief 93 til Infinity
081 Faust Rien
080 PJ Harvey Rid of Me (Album/4 Track Demos)
079 Method Man Tical
078 Hole Live Through This
077 Primal Scream Screamadelica
076 Smashing Pumpkins Gish
075 John Fahey City of Refuge
074 Gang Starr Hard to Earn
073 Schlammpeitziger Freundlichbaracudamelodieliedgut
072 Red Hot Chili Peppers Blood Sugar Sex Magick
071 Jane's Addiction Ritual de lo Habitual
070 Outkast ATLiens
069 Flaming Lips Transmissions from the Satellite Heart
068 Guided by Voices Alien Lanes
067 General Magic Frantz!
066 Public Enemy Fear of a Black Planet
065 Autechre LP5
064 Sonic Youth Goo
063 Pulp This is Hardcore
062 Digable Planets Blowout Comb
061 Flying Saucer Attack Further
060 Aceyalone All Balls Don't Bounce
059 Fugazi Repeater
058 Earth 2
057 The Orb Adventures Beyond the Ultraworld
056 Bernhard Gunter un peu de neige salie
055 Magnetic Fields Charm of the Highway Strip
054 Mark Hollis s/t
053 Stereolab Mars Audiac Quintet
052 Microstoria Init Ding
051 Ikeda, Ryoji Plus/Minus
050 Arthur Russell Another Thought
049 Daft Punk Homework
048 Robert Wyatt Shleep
047 Mouse on Mars Iaora Tahiti
046 The KLF Chill Out
045 Pita Seven Tons for Free
044 Knife in the Water Plays One Sound and Others
043 Twenty-Six This Skin is Rust
042 Dylan, Bob Time Out of Mind
041 Pharcyde Bizarre Ride II tha Pharcyde
040 Burger/Ink Las Vegas
039 Drive Like Jehu Yank Crime
038 GZA/Genius Liquid Swords
037 Royal Trux Cats and Dogs
036 Aphex Twin Selected Ambient Works Vol. 2
035 Boredoms Super Roots 1-7
034 Dr. Octagon s/t
033 Oval 94Diskont
032 DJ Shadow Endtroducing
031 A Tribe Called Quest Low End Theory
030 Pavement Slanted and Enchanted
029 Bjork Homogenic
028 Palace Music Viva Last Blues
027 Dr. Dre The Chronic
026 Smashing Pumpkins Siamese Dream
025 Yo La Tengo Painful
024 The Dead C Harsh 70's Reality
023 Nirvana In Utero
022 De La Soul Is Dead
021 Aphex Twin I Care Because You Do
020 Stereolab Random Noise Bursts with Announcements
019 Depeche Mode Violator
018 A Tribe Called Quest Midnight Marauders
017 Jesus Lizard Goat
016 Dreyblatt, Arnold Animal Magnetism
015 Guided by Voices Bee Thousand
014 Raekwon the Chef Only Built for Cuban Linx
013 Charalambides Market Square
012 Boards of Canada Music has the Right to Children
011 Palace Brothers s/t (Days in the Wake)
010 Aphex Twin Richard D. James
009 Radiohead OK Computer
008 Wu Tang Clan Enter the 36 Chambers
007 Walker, Scott Tilt
006 Slint Spiderland
005 My Bloody Valentine Loveless
004 Notorious BIG Ready to Die
003 Nas Illmatic
002 Talk Talk Laughing Stock
001 Nirvana Nevermind

― Beta (abeta), Saturday, 29 November 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

If it makes person-up-there feel better, umm, if I'd had time to do a list the Swirlies would have been in the top 15 or so, probably, for Wild Youthful etc.

― nabiscothingy, Saturday, 29 November 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

There would not have been any Velocity Girl unless I had a moment of serious weakness concerning Simpatico. But there would have been Wolfie. And lots of Orbital. And various people from Bristol.

― nabiscothingy, Saturday, 29 November 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

is it just me or are most peoples (and i'm not just saying pfork peoples) #100-50 far more interesting than their #49-01? i tried coming up with my own top 50 today and it shocked me how doctrinaire it looked.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 29 November 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that's probably true, Fiddo.

Haha, Nabisco: "various people from Bristol."

― jaymc (jaymc), Saturday, 29 November 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(I'd be very curious to see yours, btw.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Saturday, 29 November 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

nobody picked my fave record from the 90s, moonshake 'eva luna'. someone did pick a cakekitchen record but one from after he had already lost it so no points for that.

― keith m (keithmcl), Sunday, 30 November 2003 06:56 (twenty-two years ago)

No votes for Ninja Cuts: Funkungfusion? BOOOOOO

On the other hand, has there been any mention of the most forward-thinking review they've published in ages?

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Sunday, 30 November 2003 07:17 (twenty-two years ago)

God bless Scott P.

― jaymc (jaymc), Sunday, 30 November 2003 07:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(Except the front-page blurb they ran for that review was along the lines of, "Well, well, Basement Jaxx has finally put it together," as if to still justify their reviews of Remedy and Rooty.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Sunday, 30 November 2003 07:53 (twenty-two years ago)

No mentions of the Reverend, and no votes for Velocity Girl's Copacetic.

I think my top-100 would veer between doctrinaire and "I can't believe someone listed that."

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 30 November 2003 09:09 (twenty-two years ago)

cds are in the post, robin

cd#1:
1. jonny l ~ ooh i like it (original sin edit)
2. urban shakedown ~ some justice
3. krome & time ~ sound is for the underground
4. dj red alert & mike slammer ~ in effect
5. the house crew ~ euphoria (nino's dream)
6. enforcer ~ dam tuff
7. shades of rhythm ~ sound of eden
8. hyper go go ~ high
9. bass selective ~ blow out part 2
10. blame ~ music takes you (2 bad mice remix)
11. nookie ~ give a little love
12. neuromancer ~ pennywise (clown remix)
13. psychotropic ~ hypnosis (sl2 remix)
14. dj red alert & mike slammer ~ ruff
15. bass selective ~ blow out part 3

cd#2
1. manix ~ alright wid' me (tek9 remix)
2. acen ~ close your eyes (overdose mix)
3. unknown track
4. acen ~ kaleidoscopiclimax
5. sonz of a loop da loop era ~ peace & loveism
6. criminal minds ~ baptized by dub
7. fbd project ~ terminate
8. bad girl ~ bad girl
9. ma2 ~ hearing is believing
10. deep blue ~ the helicopter tune
11. ultracynic ~ nothing is forever

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 11 December 2003 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)


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