Hip-Hop: The Low Point

Obviously Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer, Fugees have much to answer for.

(sweeping generalisation, check. snappy statement, check. Another Quality post from Andrew!)

You are *so* on crack if you're talking about the first album.

Low point -- Tupac being considered a Deep and Meaningful Artist. ;-)

Ugh, that movie was filmed about two miles from my flat.

Anyway, a low point must have been the early novelty rap by whites who assumed this hip-hop thing was a cute little fad: Rappin' Duke, Ronnie Reagan, Rodney and so forth.

Vanilla Ice, of course, but not for "Ice Ice Baby" or even "I Love You". The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle rap, for sure. And, yes, Hammer, but not for his populist Jams-dancing crap, not even for *shudder* the Adams Family tie-in, but for actually going GANGSTA. _The Funky Headhunter_. No, no, no.

Referencing the Sugar / Bob Mould thread - I heard he "raps" on his newest album (on one track). That's probably atrocious as all get out.

the new Bubba Sparkxxx video.

Jay-Z's entire career

Hey, what brought this on? ;-)

LOW POINT: Adina Howard's "Freak Like Me" (if that counts).

don't really know what 'search or dud?' means, however i do feel compelled to defend european hip hop, or more accurately british hip hop. read it and weep americans, we got two hip hop aces right now in roots manuva and manchester's rae and christian.

as for the worst hip hop record, it would be a crime if skee-los "i wish.." was excluded from the list. a song about being small by a diminutive rapper who named himself after a yoghurt.

I think the track I have the biggest problem with is going to be "Whoomp There It Is". I mean, what the fuck? There what is?

*Tim makes no guarantees that "Freak Like Me" is in fact the best song ever. However, he really really likes it. Still, how is it hip hop?

So, is there really a difference between hip-hop and rap? Is hip-hop rap w/ more R&B overtones? Educate my ass, please.

And I always thought KRS-One's contribution to REM's "Radio Song" erred on the wrong side of crap. Apologies if this was mentioned already.

I actually like Mase's mumbly tone of voice -- it's everything else about him that sucks. Sensational is an MC with an even mumblier, stoneder tone of voice, but he's actually good. His guest spot on the Handsome Boy Modeling School album (perhaps one of the best albums in rap) was just awesome.

If you can give me a reason why Ma$e isn't a boil on hip-hop's ass rather than just calling me names, I'll listen. Until then, you're proving my theory that people whole like Ma$e are either 10 or dipshits.

1) his incredible production.

2) the line about rocking from cancun to grant's tomb in 'feel so good'.

3) his fascinating persona.

4) the fact that he's such a safe choice for hip-hop illiterates to make fun of that even dave cocksucking popshots took a misguided cheap shot at him. hey dave, stick to what you shamefully know about all of your godforsaken indie bands instead of parroting some weak joke you saw on chris rock show.

5) 'i'm the reason they made the dress code / they thought i wouldn't wild out when i'm in my french clothes'

he was the first in the 'mo money, mo problems' line-up for christ's sake! i honestly don't understand how he became some universal answer to the wack mc question, he's competant enough to hold his own on anything i've heard, and has outrhymed puffy on more than one occasion. conclusion: hating on ma$e is fucking played, he's not the best but he's good enough and hardly the 'low point' in hip- hop.

Calm down, take a pill, it'll make your posts a lot more easy to respond to for everyone involved. I mean, hell, I mostly AGREE with you that all this thread has proven is how little this board knows about hip-hop and rap (the Jay-Z slams and the Biggie slams are my personal favorite), but you ain't seein' me turning around telling anyone who hates Jigga to go fuck themselves because they are so far beneath my level of Jay knowledge that they might as well go commit suicide because they aren't fucking worth my time.

Capiche? Purely friendly advice.

So what? What did Ma$e have to do with his production? NOTHING. Ma$e's production is one area where I'm willing to give Puffy credit. I do not credit Ma$e with shit.

2) the line about rocking from cancun to grant's tomb in 'feel so good'.

I'm sorry, but that entire song is dumb as shit. It's akin to watching an idiot getting his ego stroked by the popular kids so that they can make fun of him behind his back. The only good things in the song have nothing to do with Ma$e; the beat is nice and the female dancers in the video are slammin'. As a platform for Mc skills, it's awful.

3) his fascinating persona.

The only fascinating thing he did was quit the music business for the ministry, and it's not even like that's the first time that's happened (see, for example, Pebbles). His entire media persona was like a retarded version of Puffy. Ooh, how fascinating!

4) the fact that he's such a safe choice for hip-hop illiterates to make fun of that even dave cocksucking popshots took a misguided cheap shot at him. hey dave, stick to what you shamefully know about all of your godforsaken indie bands instead of parroting some weak joke you saw on chris rock show.

Now you're showing up the big weakness in your defense right there. You're only four points in, can only make one point about his skills which comes down not to delivery or flow, but one line in the first single he released, then you go on to say that he's an easy target for ridicule. If he's so damn good, why is he an easy target for ridicule? I'll answer for you; it's because he's a fucking awful MC whose sole purpose for existence was to prolong the fucking of Biggie's dead corpse so that Puffy could line his pockets with more cash. Do you honestly think that Ma$e would have had any type of commercial success had Puffy not introduced at the height of the post-Biggie Bad Boy mania?

5) 'i'm the reason they made the dress code / they thought i wouldn't wild out when i'm in my french clothes'

This is another stupid line.

he was the first in the 'mo money, mo problems' line-up for christ's sake!

And? Ma$e's entire function in that song is to make Puffy look credible before Biggie's verse kicks in. The track itself is kind of amazing because Ma$e's verse is so limpid and wrong that Puffy seems like a breath of fresh air. Then, Biggie's verse drops and you realize that Puffy is actually a gigantic hunk of shit.

i honestly don't understand how he became some universal answer to the wack mc question, he's competant enough to hold his own on anything i've heard, and has outrhymed puffy on more than one occasion.

Jesus Christ. My nuts could occasionally outrhyme Puffy. Sometimes being better than someone who is shit does not mean that you are not shit, particularly when more often than not the shit sounds good after you step away from the mic. As far as holding his own with others is concerned, the MCs on the Bad Boy label after Puffy's death were so horrible that a hemmrhoidal monkey could have jumped up on stage and shown everyone its ass and it would have been just as entertaining.

The majority of the Bad Boy Mcs are good for dancefloor fillers that you don't have to think very hard about. There is nothing wrong with that; in fact, it's a perfectly laudable go and I've got tons and tons of records in many genres that were created with that goal in mind. HOWEVER, don't even try to compare the lyrical skills of a no-talent simpleton like Ma$e with people like Biggy, Tupac, Digital Underground, Jay-Z, Nas, Ludacris, anyone in Wu-Tang, Eminem, or even fucking Insane Clown Posse, because the sad motherfucker does not rate and never will. People get dumber just from listening to his shit.

Well considering three other people have all said, in short unspecific format, the exact same thing, don't you feel like a cockfarming tosser now? I understand that your posts aren't 100% serious, Ethan (I mean, if they were and you were honestly this psychotic, someone would've killed you by now, if you hadn't already self-destructed), which is why I don't reply to them in kind 99% of the times and instead try to point out to you why people are consistently taking you the "wrong way". I understand that you are a particularly childish, stupid and immature little boy. I understand that. I love you for it. I also understand that a lot of other people are going to read the absolutely derogatory, disgusting and irritating way you talk to everyone around here, decide you are serious, and start shit with you and that if you want to avoid being treated like an asshole, you shouldn't act like such a psychotic dickhead.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation, fuckwad.

dan: against this very thoughtful and well- reasoned response, i merely offer that you are a fan of the insane clown posse. if there is anyone else on this forum who would like to put forth that those wacky 'rappers' from icp are somehow better than ma$e in any way, shape, or form, please come forth now and explain.

ned: no.

'ally cat': the only problem with 'posting style' i see here is that you have somehow used your wonderful magnetic personality to somehow redirect this thread to be about my apparent inability to communicate above an 'eight-year old's level'. hey, at least i can 'motherfucking' stay on the 'fucking' topic instead of making bizarre unprovoked attacks. i mean, hello, your posting style isn't exactly, like, totally the greatest either, duh, but you don't see me writing a fucking manifesto on it. if you want to play mommy so bad, go find one of the many ilmers who would filthily jump at the chance, i'm tired of your endless posts 'for my own good'. can't you just fucking ignore me like you claim to so often? oh wait, i hope i didn't say 'fuck' too many times.

This I have to hear. Though I don't want a live demonstration, please.

Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope know that they're wack MCs. Much of their schtick is based on extraordinarily dodgy rhymes done for comedic effect. Ma$e, while he was still in the business, just knew he was the best MC out there. I'm much more willing to listen to someone who sucks in a funny way than someone who sucks in a self-aggrandizing, aggravating way. Also, while the things J and Shaggy are saying tend to be extraordinarily boneheaded, they at least do so with a reasonable sense of flow (particularly on the first three albums). Ma$e sounds as if he has his eyes closed and is desperately reeling off words that someone taught him by rote because he couldn't read fast enough to keep up with the beat.

I should point out that the two ICP albums everyone knows, _The Great Milenko_ and _The Amazing Jeckel Brothers_, are not very good. In fact, _TAJB_ sucks ass.

Hip Hop is just one long low-point.

For me, it's meant the gradual decline of pop culture into a doldrum of meritless braggadoccio where only the basest of possible concerns (big butted women and the gratuitous display of suspiciously-acquired wealth) take precedence.

And this is different from the majority of rock how, exactly?

Your blinkers are showing, Motel Hell. Get off yer high horse.

nah, that's for little kids and amateurs. ;) But yeah Ma$e is probably worse than Mc Astma. But then again I don't understand the negative comments about Missy. So I'll exile myself from any hip-hop discussion since I don't know motherfuckin' shit.

You just wait until my nuts drop. An album.

B-Rock & The Bizz - Baby Daddy (the 12" has an acapella version that defies all conventional notions of flow, rhythm or coherence. basically ghetto autism.)

World Class Wrecking Cru's "Wrapped in Romance" (pre-NWA luuurve rap w/ Dre!)

MotelHell - are you HeyBuddy?? That would be awesome!

And "Crossroads" a low point? Nah, man.

-- Ally (garance8...), September 9th, 2001.

http://i.timeinc.net/instyle/read/yearbook/popup/images/yb_1a_180902.jpg http://i.timeinc.net/instyle/read/yearbook/popup/images/yb_1b_180902.jpg

This is actually quite an accurate analogy.

Get one D&D.

I got a whole block full of 'em!

Because I was shy, and because I mistakenly believed that the internet was no place for real writing, or the style of writing I thought I was proficient at. And I think I said something about John Oates that was, ahem, misconstrued. I DO NOT LOVE JOHN OATES THAT WAY!

If you have a baby and don't know what to do,
Baby Safe Haven can help you choose.
When the baby is born and you're feeling all alone,
and the mother's confused because she can't provide a home.
"Although I can or can't be there, another option is adoption."
"But where can I go for help?"
Bring the baby to the cops or hospital,
it's possible.
No strings attached.
No questions asked.
If you have a baby and don't know what to do,
Baby Safe Haven can help you choose.
Baby...Safe Haven!
Baby...Safe Haven!
Baby...Safe Haven!

goddamn there's another hip-hop low point for ya.

Miccio, I don't know if I agree about Bullworth being a low point...! Expound.

Reading all those 2001 posts is kinda amazing... The lowest point of rap was Digital Underground?? Tupac and Biggie??! Gangsta rap (not just some specific gangsta rapper, but the whole genre)???!! Jay-Z (okay, I'm not a big fan of his, but still...)??! Motherfuckin' "Crossroads", one of the best rap singles ever???!! Is this what ILM was like in 2001? The only thing I agree with those guys is that Missy is not really a good rapper.

funny, I was thinking exactly the opposite (Matos/Miccio complete disagreement shocker yes I know)

I can't be bothered but this is a half-decent summary of why the film is fubar.

x-post: haha actually I can see the argument for the original single and would be tempted to make it myself, but the MTV performance let us see Sting (of all people!) be reduced to Puffy's stationary, hook singing bitch and that was too-too classic.

Incidentally, the Boyz in tha Hood are wack.

I will, however, admit to liking the Young Jeezy "So Icy" shirts with the snowmen.

But has anyone noticed that Jeezy himself wears a GOLD snowman shirt?

Effectively, made of YELLOW SNOW?

This, certainly, must be some sort of low point.

-- miccio (anthonyisrigh...), July 24th, 2005.

OTM! i thought the smae thing when i saw it

lost in all the bullshit but lol @ frank kogan saying nelly >>>> bone thugs

??? wtf

Let's face it - Digital Underground sucked.

― dave q, Saturday, September 8, 2001 12:00 AM (7 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

jel was actually right

Let's face it - Digital Underground sucked.

― dave q, Saturday, September 8, 2001 12:00 AM (7 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalin

1st rule of challopsization

this is incredible

I bet this could be an interesting thread if it wasn't a magnet for a bunch of Sujfan Stevens fans posting LOLs and trollspeak

all you ukkk cunts

Straw Sufjan

Professor Griff

Low point -- Tupac being considered a Deep and Meaningful Artist. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Friday, September 7, 2001 8:00 PM (7 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i remember seeing puffy (who i can't say that i hate; i still dig "Can't Nobody Hold Me Down") and jimmy page doing that kashmir thing on SNL(?) and thinking that was pretty terrible

best 00s Pac single poll?

I saw the video for that Nelly duet with the Kelly Rowland and my god it made me want to stab a hobo puppy.

i remember seeing puffy (who i can't say that i hate; i still dig "Can't Nobody Hold Me Down") and jimmy page doing that kashmir thing on SNL(?) and thinking that was pretty terrible

no way, this has some of the sickest drumming ever. just looked for it on youtube but it gotten taken down ;_;

haha yeah i totally remember that drummer being a beast

I can't forget it
Why you did it
I won't permit it
And won't acquit it
I want to fight you
I'll fucking bite you
Can't stand nobody like you
You can't run
You can't hide
No surprise
Close your eyes
Come with me, yeah

this thread is crazy

speaking of crazy...i really loved it when gnarls barkley really took hip hop to a new, more intelligent level....great album

and no one thought to mention Ca$h Money or No Limit records? I mean "'bout it, 'bout it", "bling, bling"....some of the most cringe worthy stuff on commercial radio in the past ten years. Each label had it's exceptions, but mostly the songs they put out were vomitrocious.

― kevin says relax

LWJLEJFEWIJGLEIWJFLIDSJFLDSJFISJ Fldsijfldjslfjfl;sdjf;lijelivjleirnvlirjflrejf

http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2008-10-05.gif

it's always great when rap music incorporates other influences so that they manage to transcend the genre.

Geir?

That you, buddy?

nabisco i saw you interviewing robyn on pitchfork tv, and what struck me was that for the last 2 minutes she basically turned into geir hongro...did you notice this too or am i too quick to leap on scandinavians blathering about melody

I used to love "Pushin Weight" by Ice Cube when it came out!! that song and video was hilarious,

also, this is weird:

It's Top Genre worldwide, sure

british dude? or what...

i've never liked hip-hop

four-ish words:

N. 2. GETHER. NOW.

The real answer is, and always be, despite the highlights, mid-1985.

It was the era where the industry gave up on it being more than a "fad" after the breakdancing movies either failed to r.o.i., or failed to get made altogether (Cry of the City), but right before Russell Simmons signed his CBS M&D deal and made Krush Groove...therefore, a host of novelty records filled the gap acting as johnny come latelies.

Or, you're old like me, and haven't cared for hip-hop since the mid-to-late 90s.

Whichever.

Haha, this thread is amazing... In 2001 the lowest points of hip-hop included 2Pac, Biggie, Jay-Z, "Crossroads", and gangsta rap. Has the ILM consensus really changed that much in 7 years, or have most of the 2001 posters simply left the board?

Oh yeah, and Digital Underground too. I can see some validity of criticizing 2Pac, Biggie or Jay-Z, but how can anyone think DU suck?

You have to remember it was Dave Q who said that.

also freak like me and missy. such a weird thread.

The alleged "golden age" of ILM.

Hip-Hop: The Lol Point

no way, this has some of the sickest drumming ever. just looked for it on youtube but it gotten taken down ;_;

― Jordan, Wednesday, October 15, 2008 5:39 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha yeah i totally remember that drummer being a beast

― some dude, Wednesday, October 15, 2008 5:58 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i am 90% sure that drummer is mario winans

make that 100%: Soon after, Winans teamed up with P. Diddy and his Bad Boy roster. His first work with Bad Boy was playing drums on "Come With Me" in 1998 by Diddy and Jimmy Page, based on the classic Led Zeppelin song "Kashmir" from their 1975 album Physical Graffiti.

wow, that is crazy

here's the video: http://www.imeem.com/camphorhall/video/4o-IqpBJ/puff_daddy_feat_mario_winans_and_jimmy_page_come_with_me_mu/

4:00 - 4:30, mario winans u bad

(actually it's not quite as crazy as i remember it but still)

lol I like how I made a complete 180 on Missy

can't fathom ever having hated on Missy - she was awesome from the first single

I really hated the first single, was lukewarm on the second and really loved the third. At the time, I was still very much in "if it's not A Tribe Called Quest, it's CRAP!"-mode.

hahahaha lolz awesome

it was really the video that sold me on it - I think when I first heard it I had come across the Graham Central Station version a few weeks prior and was sorta nonplussed by her minimal take on it. but the video... I was like "oh yes FINALLY a weird arty female success story for hip hop - more plz"

By the third video I was hooked on her visual style but most of the time, as I stated above, I really wanted her to sing instead of rap. It really wasn't until "She's A Bitch" that I started appreciating her rhyming.

i remember just getting worn out with get ur freak on, but she really has been consistently great

yeah that one got a bit overexposed

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Jah Rule

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned either rap songs that contain the word "low" in the title, or rappers that have the word "Lo" as part of their name.

baby girl you telling lies
cuz when i look you in yo face i cna see im on yo mind
and it dont matter when them hoez may say i know your love is blind
for me, every bitch needs a thug nigger in their life
could it be you enjoy me fucking you, while you be loving me
trick and destroy us mentally
thats why they freak wit me frequently
love is life (?)
[...]
being nokio's a bit much
i got bitches in the states that love ta suck
i got bitches overseas that love to fuck
what the fuck yall want from me?
ghetto celebrity from b'more
murderer do-or-die from N-Y
and everbody's here right
N-O-K-I-O, baby, R to the U-L-E, baby
know a lot of yall bitches hate me cuz you cant relate to me
what the fuck you want from me?
let them hoes know not a thing
ice they wrists neck ear and ring
you are everything

from what i remember of a ja rule song on sisqo's CD. lol @ my memory from being 12

I want to change my answer and say the low point of hip-hop / rap is the fact that Missy Elliot exists.

― Ally

Missy Elliot just needs to sing. She's great when she sings and HOOOOOOOORIBLE when she speaks (I refuse to call that rapping).

― Dan Perry

would have been a better revive if you'd left the date stamps on

2001.

those new "classic hip-hop" radio stations play "get ur freak on" SO MUCH and i'm already sick of it, it's like the hotel california of rap